Hope you don't mind...Meaad. I started a new thread using your post from another thread as the initial intro into this important topic. This practice varies across the continent and even between our two school boards in a town under 50,000.


On to the topic which is where I was heading...my daughter did very well in what is called alternative education placement. Because this place housed all the troubled students from several different schools the children have to work self paced studies.

Socialization is very limited and students must adhear to strict dress code in which they are all expected to wear much the same clothing. My daughter always complained of boredom but her grades soared. .

. Kids are separated by cubicles. They are working different assignments, and are not allowed to socialize at all while in class. They do have recreation but it too is highly structured and extremely well supervised. All students in a given area are to participate in what ever sport or game is underway. Student are not allowed to break off from the group or form groups among them selves. Lunch is obtained from the lunch room with only small groups of students going at any given time. Then lunch is taken back to the class room and eaten under supervision. Bathrooms are across the hall from the class or even located in the class room itself (appropriate privacy with enclosed areas of co****). This is to prevent any more than one student at a time from going.

I was told that many children will continue to get into trouble so they could be returned to this very structured school environment. Another approach is for the kids to do well until their days are almost over then they will go through a phase of trouble making to actually extend their stay....maybe these troubled youths are telling us some thing but the system is failing to listen!!!!!!! It sounds too much like prison to me, and I as a parent was totally against my daughters placement at first. The results spoke volumes and made a believer out of me. Maybe just maybe some students need more structure than others. Maybe peer socialization is over rated by a majority of adults who hold fond memories of school chums forgetting some kids are out cast.

I once asked if I could keep my daughter in the alternate placement but was denied. I was told than many parents have requested this before because the student grades do tend to improve along with their over all conduct. This placement benefitted me as an employee, I could get through a work day without a call from the school office.

Maybe some teens function better in this environment just as some adults function better in the military. Much of the structure is borrowed from the military. This is not only viable it is already in existence for kids who are one step away from expulsion (thus the term alternative education) Despite the harsh sound of this school setting remember this setting housed ALL of the children from jr. highs and high schools in a town of 100,000 who would have other wise been expelled and yet some like my Michelle excelled greatly in this atmosphere!!!! Her stress level actually decreased when the distraction of social status and interaction was greatly reduced.

See and you all thought I expressed a desire to give the little beggars more freedom!!! No what I meant when I said quit herding cattle is to allow for different enviromets based on the child/s ability to handle them. School setting should enhance and encourage teacher child interaction. In the example given above the alternative school setting does this by eliminating most interactions between students. Yes the class sizes are small aprox 10-12, they max at 15/20 depending on grade level and conduct severity. More sever misbehaviors the smaller the class size for obvious reasons.. The only thing worse than 10 ADDers in a class of 35, is over fifteen adolescent ADD,ODD, and conduct holy mother of :eek: in one class room with only one teacher.

Maybe adult ADDers like our selves have eluded failure by using our freedom of choice to decide upon environments that enhance our individual styles. We have years more experiences in learning coping strategies than our children yet we deny them alternatives to traditional class room settings (unless they get into trouble) and wonder at their failure rate!!!!!!! As I am typing this I am thinking DUH!!!!!! :faint:

This kind of goes along with what Barkley write in his book Taking Charge of ADHD, "However, in other cases, especially those with severe ADHD symptoms and accompanying problems of opposition, aggression, or learning disabilities, alternative educational placements -- or example, special education or private school -- may be necessary. Ideally, these placements should include classes with a small student-teacher ratio, and the clasess should be taught be teachers with expertise in behavior modification."Maybe peer socialization is over rated by a majority of adults who hold fond memories of school chums forgetting some kids are out cast.I agree. I think we tend to overrate socialization at school by peers -- forgetting how often that can be a negative rather than a positive. Homeschoolers hear all the time about how their kids aren't being socialized, but do their peers really provide the best socialization or is adult interaction possibly valuable too? Thanks for sharing that Tammy. It's good to hear there are programs out there that are working -- too bad you have to make the "trouble maker" list to get to take advantage of it. Certainly would save a lot of grief for everyone and self esteem on the part of the students if we acted preemptively to meet their needs rather than letting them flounder first.Maybe just maybe some students need more structure than others.Barkley would agree in his book mentioned above he states, "Interestingly, while this understanding of ADHD should evoke empathy, it does not mean that we should stop holding children with ADHD accountable for their behavior....This means that to help those with ADHD we must make them more accountable, not less so. We must devise consequences that are more immediate, more frequent, and more salient than they would normally be in any given situation. Thus we can help them compensate for their deficit and live more normal, functional lives."

Scattered

Very very interesting.

My input on this: both of my kids seem to benefit from structure. The younger one is a perfectionist and loves academics. The older one (w/ADD) can't self-organize, so he needs someone to keep on him. He also likes academics, when it's science or reading. My older son's first grade teacher was not the task-master he needed, but his 2nd grade teacher is.

My concerns: While I your comments about the overrating of socialization really made me think, I worry about the program you described allowing for so little social learning. If kids aren't allowed to work through their issues, will they learn to do so? Also, how far up in age does this program go? I think most of the trouble with social ostracism occurs at grades 4 and up.

My bigger concern, however, is dumping kids out of the program (almost like punishment) when they're succeeding. If it aint broke, don't fix it. If kids do well, shouldn't they stick with what works? ARGH!

Just my $.02

The basic premise of Alternative Ed. is that students who go to Alt ed can't function in a regular classroom even with accommodations or modifications to curriculum. That means that they can't pass or not get into serious trouble in a regular classroom. Not even a good IEP or changing what and how they are taught would help them enough to be successful in the regular class. These students would typically end up being dropouts or getting expelled from school. The goal would be that with this extra help they could move forward and eventually get their diplomas.

Typically they like to do shorter term placements with these kids. They wish to turn them around and get them back into the regular school. Then they can help new students. I think most AE places realize that some students must stay in for longer if the student is to have any sort of success.

That means that they can't pass or not get into serious trouble in a regular classroom.

Exactly!!!!!!! For many kids the traditional class is fine but when a child gets in trouble over and over and over and to nauseam then it is a sure sign things are NOT working out!!!!!!!

Socialization among peers for an ADD child can be overwhelming. Are we not trying to teach our children how to communicate as adults???? What better way then to have then conversing with adults.

Remember in the present day alternative placement setting these kids have the teachers or other troubled children. Too much socialization among these kinds can lead to big time trouble for all. They may not be able to plan for the next school day but when it comes to hatching disaster that would be a different story!!!!!!


My point is that regular class socialization may just be too over whelming for the ADD (even on medications) or struggling child!!!!! Eliminating or greatly reducing may provide the decrease in stimuli that these kids need to focus on their studies!!!!!!


If we could catch these sort of problems before the child become neck deep then I believe these alternative schools could be run slightly differently. They would introduce peer socialization gradually as the child show progression in areas of communication. They could be run with a promotion type setting kind of like the military. As a child masters a set of task then more freedom is given in small gradual increments!!!! When bad behavior resurfaces the child can be "demoted". With promotions socialization with peer opportunity is allowed to increase with demotion it decreases once again. This way socialization can occur according to the individual child's maturity instead of just throwing them "to the wolves" so to speak.

The way it is now children are assigned "X" amount of time in alternative education programs according to the "violation". Then when that time is up they are thrown back into traditional class room so they can once again become over whelmed get into trouble and back in alternative. Knowing what we do about ADDers and transitions this is insane!!!!!!!


Children who already have had problems in day cares could be picked up very early on before the negative association to the school environment begins!!!!!!!!


These programs are currently used for middle school and high school children.

Hope you don't mind...Meaad

I don't mind at all!!!!!:)

You know I remember reading a few years ago about seperate boys and girls schools. The study found that boys got into a lot less trouble without the girls around and did better academically, and the girls excelled academically in fields they traditionally didn't, because they didn't have to compete with the boys for teacher's time. This wasn't ADD students, but I wonder how this would work for ADD kids as far as reducing mischief, off task behavior, and improving scholastic results. The kids did have special functions with the opposite sex, but attended seperate schools. With the penchant ADD kids for low impulse control -- seems like both early sex and drug use might also be reduced without the cross gender friction and better same sex relationship built without the competition for the opposite sex's attention. Give kids a little more change to mature (since ADD is a developmental disorder) before having to face those challenges.

Scattered

I think the biggest advantage of the gender-specific schools is teaching methods tailored to the gender. Boys and girls learn best using different methods. Girls tend to learn better in cooperative situations, for example.

Perhaps an ADD school isn't such a bad idea. It would allow the teachers to tailor their methods to their audience instead of trying to teach to everyone.

Things are progressive up here in Canada. Some of you better Americans are welcome to immigrate. :)

I have seen two working models of Alt ed. Neither one was as Tammy described her Alt ed program. Done right, as Tammy said, a military type structure would work. Have I not read some where that they believe 20% of the military is populated by ADHDers?

At our school we 1/2 day Alt ed classes. One is for the grade 9-10's and it is more study skills, home work class. The second one is for troubled 10's and beyond. It is a quasi-co-op like course where they learn about careers and get placed in work environments while being shadowed. It is a good course for spec ed kids to take to prep for real co-op. Both have a staff student ratio of 1:6 to about 1:10.

The second model had a separate building. Students would apply to get in and it was hard to stay in. With one leader they took the most troubled kids. With the other leader they took the kids they thought they could be successful with. The first had less structure and the second had more. Both had learning modules ( like a correspondence type course ) that could be done independently but the kids would come to school for assistance.

Heres a curve ball...and it's my opinion. Most kids could be successful in school with good IEP's and good understanding teachers/staff. When kids are understood and their needs are met...most can have success. The alt ed kids were often kids with depression, or ADHD kids with some oppositional stuff.

Have I not read some where that they believe 20% of the military is populated by ADHDers?
I don't know, but it was populated by me for 5 years. :D

Having all that structure is freeing in a lot of ways -- frees you from worrying about doing your taxes, or getting your doctor's checkup, or moving -- but it can chafe quite a bit as well.

But I largely credit my military experience with enabling me to subsequently do well in college (after nearly flunking out of H.S.).

Things are progressive up here in Canada. Some of you better Americans are welcome to immigrate. :)Been there -- done that!:) One of the impulsive moves in my history -- left my counseling practice, sold my house in a week, and left sunny Florida to move up to Port Hardy, Vancouver Island, BC where it rained 10 months out of the year!:eek: We lived there about two years until the tax structure broke our piggy bank amd the rain broke our spirits. In fact our, youngest was born there! We're going to visit the cousins up there for Christmas.:D

Scattered

Some of you better Americans are welcome to immigrate.


What do we need to better than???????



Florida to move up to Port Hardy, Vancouver Island, BC where it rained 10 months out of the year! :eek:


Talk about 180 degree difference almost ltierally!!!! :eek: and burrrrr Althought it rains quiet a bit in Florida it is usually a warmer rain!!!!!! My grandparents moved from Long Island New, York to San Angelo, Texas because Grandpaw said he was getting to old to figure out what to do with all that snow :o


It would allow the teachers to tailor their methods to their audience instead of trying to teach to everyone.


Excellent point and idea.

This I believe is the biggest problem with the American school system. Sense I do not have any experience with others countries schools I can't say much about them as I do not know any thing about them. I personally believe it is an undue hardship on the teachers to shove a bunch of children with different learning styles, levels of maturity, then adding a few children with special needs into one class room and expect the teacher to effectively teach ALL!!!!!!

Last I checked most teachers were human they not only are expected to meet these unreasonable goals their personal strengths are not accounted for either. No offense to present company, but in my experience there are some teachers out there who should never be allowed to teach special needs children ADD or other wise.

Have I not read some where that they believe 20% of the military is populated by ADHDers?

Well I think this is a lower percentage of ADDers than the ADD prision population!!!!

Some ADDers do very well in structured environments. My daughter who had the hardest time in school was among them. Unfortunately the having to take medication to remain emotionally stable disqualifies one from the military here in America!!!!!! She tried to wean her self off mood stabilizing medication so she would qualify for the Navy but found she could not function very well!!!!!

She is one of my reasons for believing a more military school environment would do a majority of the most troubled children good. I like to separating genders idea also, as long as both sexes got an equal education.

You know I remember reading a few years ago about seperate boys and girls schools. The study found that boys got into a lot less trouble without the girls around and did better academically, and the girls excelled academically in fields they traditionally didn't, because they didn't have to compete with the boys for teacher's time.
*puzzled frown* I find that odd, since I've generally read that it's girls who get the most attention from the teacher in school these days.

What do we need to better than???????
She is one of my reasons for believing a more military school environment would do a majority of the most troubled children good. I like to separating genders idea also, as long as both sexes got an equal education.

Structure is good. The firm, loving/understanding parent style is good. The hardass..punish for every infraction is not good.

The best place for every student is the regular class. If not the regular class then their "home" school with some integration. The reason you want to do this is to model behaviour. ADHD kids behave better in a class/school of norms. If you want to see misbehaviour have all your ADHD kids of the school in the same class.

These are personal observations and not true for every kid. Some kids are dangerous, or have highly significant problems. It may be easier or necessary to find a place for them off campus.

Seperate behaviour schools can also be a nightmare.

The best place for every student is the regular class.

Hmmmm I am now very confused. :confused: Hmmm gotta open another window and I always wonder why I have six browsers open!!!!! :eyebrow: I find this conflicting with some thing else written some where around here!!!!!


Okay found what I was looking for without loosing why I was looking in the first place!!!!!!! :o

Now source of my confusion:
The point I am driving at is that ADHD IS A HUGE PROBLEM IN SCHOOL. That message has got to be marketed better, it's just not understood. Not only is it a HUGE problem for the underachieving and failing ADHD students, it's a HUGE problem for the teachers. Bipolar kids who are manic, PTSD kids having an emotional outburst, Autism spectrum when it is misunderstood/dealt with wrong...can all be hell for a teacher. Yet there is no greater disruptive force in the traditional classroom, day in-day out....then students with ADHD. To begin with, there are just a lot more of them.

Bold added by me for Emphasis

Copied from this thread for those already not familiar with the thread.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=241755#post241755


If not the regular class then their "home" school with some integration.

Some integration????? Home school now to figure out how to say this with out it sounding wrong,,,,,,,hmmmmm,,,is this a suggestion than ADHD parents should teach their own children at home...so we can teach them how to learn how to be ADHD better!!!!!.....and for the parental units who don't have this talent of teaching??????? I do NOT teach academics ...I could teach them how to work on cars take the toasters apart….reassembling Hmmmm

There are simple some things I was not meant to do!!!!!

I don't cut hair my daughters quit letting me cut their hair at four, I took them to a beautician...I often had trouble finding funds for this so one daughter learned to cut hair by 8!!!!!! Hmm my kids would probably be teaching themselves but it is the what :eek: they would teaching themselves that may be a problem in society!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Not all are meant to teach just as not all are meant to nurse, work on cars, or do drafting jobs!!!! I for one can do all three but teach reading, math, social studies no way!!!!


The reason you want to do this is to model behaviour.


This does not happen according to some of the previous post I have read before. Please allow me to refresh the memory!!!!!!!


Again, this is personal observation, ADHDers are NEVER the most liked kids in a class. They are hardly ever picked as leaders unless they have an attribute or skill that makes them stand out. Even then, they are not typically natural leaders. In a group setting some do achieve wide popularity if they take on the good natured clown role. Not to many ADHDers can do that.

From the following thread;
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23553&page=3&pp=15&highlight=dirty+shirt

another example of my confusion, same thread different post

When it comes to the overall grade leaders ADHDers are virtually never the most popular or the alpha wolf of any class. ADHD kids often hang out with other kids with ADHD, other disorders, or LD's. When it comes to drug culture at our school...now that's where ADHDers are in there like a dirty shirt.

I do believe I may have simple missed some thing along the line some point of logic obvious to all but me. Perhaps it is the way I sort information the way I use my memory (which is really good at times), but these statements do not correlate ..although they are gleaned from different threads they are all speaking of the same thing ADHD children in the traditional classroom!!!!!!

I would welcome some one to help me fill in what I have apparently missed here!!!!!!


Seems like ADHD children sort of seek each other out any way why not have a different place besides the drug culture, detention hall or the juvie court system????????

Home school does not equal home schooling.

"home school" generally means the school closest to your home. It is still the practice, in some places, that Special ed kids are shipped to urban centers where they are collected and put in large Special Ed schools. You want them in their home school so that they grow up with their peers, their peers model behaviour, and they also take as regular a curriculum as possible. The more ADHD kids you have in the class, the more potentially disruptive of a force they become. If you have behaviour ADHD kids it's best to separate them by timetabling and giving them support so they can achieve. If the regular class is impossible, then a small segregated class within the school. A very small percentage of kids will have no success in a regular school, even with accommodation and understanding. These kids may need residential school or some other highly specialized school. In our school, no student is in a segregated or alt ed class for more then 50% of the day. These include our developmental kids. If they are highly needy, then they will have an EA in the class for the regular classes.

Alt Ed can be run in a classroom, in a number of regular schools across a given area, instead of having a seperate Alt Ed school. This way they can be partially integrated into regular classes for some parts of the day. The danger of an Alt ed school off campus is that alt ed students may begin to associate their only success outside of traditional school and simply give up when they return back to their regular school. Teachers may think as acceptable, that challenging kids don't belong here and they know there is a place for them some where else. When they think that way they can make life difficult for these students...so, that in the end, they are forced off out of their class and off campus. Part of the regular school experience is learning to live with regular school expectations which are ultimately societal norms. If the goal for most kids, is College or University, then ultimatly they need to be in a regular schoo. Not only do the ADHD kids need to learn how to cope but the teachers and other students also need to learn how to work with difficult or annoying peers.

ADHD is a huge problem in school. Mainly because the majority of administration and teachers don't recognize ADHD for the seriousness of the impairment, if they even recognize the disorder at all. Schools could be A LOT more ADHD friendly.

Yes, ADHD kids do find each other...but it's better if not all their interactions in a day are with ADHD peers or other kids with significant problems. I forced my daughter into the academic stream at High School not because I wanted her to become a Scientist but more so that her peers in the academic classes would model better behaviour then the other streams. Her friends now are all in the academic stream. She is 17 and drinks and parties but at school she is an A student. She had to drop down a level in grade 11 math but otherwise got those marks in an academic program. Had I put her in a lower level she may have seen her peers acting up in class and not trying. She may have followed suit. We have pushed and helped her through this. It hasn't been easy. She didn't do this on smarts. She has average intlelligence.

Yes, ADHD kids do find each other...
Here's something funny -- there is a child (I'll call him "Ricky") who has been in the same class with my ADD 8yo since Kindergarten. In Kindergarten and 1st grade, this kid would follow my son around because he really liked him.

DS is a pretty friendly guy who loves meeting new kids, but when it comes to everyday life, he has just a few very close friends and spends the rest of his time in his own world. So, Ricky was an annoyance. DS likes Ricky, but would come home whining that the kid just wouldn't leave him alone!

This year on the first day of school DS was accosted by Ricky, who was thrilled they had the same class again. DS rolled his eyes when he saw him, but by the end of the day was talking about Ricky this, Ricky that. Now he's a good bud and DS never complains about Ricky annoying him.

Interesting part (if you've read this far!): At the same time my son was identified by his teacher (first week of school), she also IDed 2 others; one w/H and one w/o H (DS is calm). The one w/o H -- you guessed -- RICKY!