Wish me luck. The psych. has been seeing my daughter for two months now. We are finally going back in to discuss her findings. When she started seeing the psych. we did not consider ADHD at all. Even now it does not seem to fit my daughter exactly. We will see how it goes.

A run down of her symptoms for you armchair psychs. 7yo, second grade.

-aggressive and sometimes cruel to her sister.(this was the original reason for bringing her to the psych.)
-always kind to animals.
-very difficult time completing homework. Takes many hours. Will not work independently for any length of time.
-Recently has started really disliking homework
-Nearly impossible for her to complete a multistep task based on verbal instruction. (getting dressed, etc)
-Does not pay attention when you are talking to her. Even about something interesting to her.
-Able to sit still. Not hyper at all
-She can read pretty well and has excellent comprehension. Although when reading out loud she skips words and is very "choppy"
-Difficulties in Math
-Able to concentrate when playing on her own.
-Horrible handwriting.
-Arguementative and contrary. Even with things like: lets go get Ice Cream! No. Why not? I said NO!
-Often refuses to participate in sports, etc. Even though she likes the sport, she will sometimes just refuse. And I don't mean resist. I mean she absolutely refuses.
-extremely sensitive to any criticism
-Has friends, but has some problems with relationships too.
-No desire to be independant. Would be happy as a clam if we dressed her and brushed her teeth for her.

She is scheduled for testing/evaluation in a couple weeks.

Even though I resisted taking her to therapy for a long time. I still think that sometimes we are overreacting to her issues. I will rely on the psych. who came very well recommended. We will see what happens tonight.

I look back and read the symptoms and it looks like a normal kid too?!? Maybe not? Parenting it tough. You don't want to over react but you dont want o ignore the issues either. Hmmm.

You live with her. It doesn't hurt to ask.


Hope it went well, and was helpful to you. Keep us posted.

80% of the things you list describe my 8yo second grade boy EXACTLY.

He's not defiant or dependent, and isn't mean to his brother, but he has the same problems with math and handwriting. He's actually very good at math, but can't seem to do it. (it takes forever and I have to be there to prod him)

Mine loves to read and is far ahead of peers on comprehension and understanding.

A lot of what you list could be age-appropriate, but if it's bad enough to send you to a therapist, I hope you nail it down. If it's AD/HD, you'll know how to treat it.

Good luck! Let us know how it went.

The meeting went very well. We spoke for almost an hour about all the things she has learned about my daughter. The Psych. has really gotten a lot of information from my daughter about her issues. Most of the behavior issues stem from stress/anxiety at school because she knows that she is slower than the other kids at math. My daughter also admitted that she gets overwhelmed when there are a lot of things going on around her and she does not know what to focus on so she just ignores everything. Her negative behavior is a method to get some power back, that she loses in school. It was really amazing to hear all of the things that the counselor learned. Not surprising or unnexpected, just amazing how she was able to put everything together. She does feel that there is some sort of learning problem, so she is looking forward to seeing the results from the learning tests/evaluation that we have scheduled in two weeks. She said that these symptoms do point to ADHD but she wants to get more information regarding any specific learning problems before making a plan to address the school work. In the mean time she just wants us to learn to acknoledge that things are difficult for our daughter. She feels that will help reduce her aggressive behavior toward her sister.

I feel really, really good that we are going down the right path. Not rushing to judgement. Gathering all the information needed to make a plan.

Another thing. Our daughter was soo, soo excited that we were going to see the psych. When we got home she wanted to hear all about what she had to say. My daughter knows there are issues and knows that we are trying to help her get through them. It is so exciting to her.

I could go on forever, but I will just add one more interesting observation. The counselor said that when the children start understanding the issues, they think that everyone around them is being nicer and better. My daughter told the therapist that Mom and Dad are being more patient and her sister is not messing up her stuff so much anymore. Good news.

Barb, is is interesting to hear about someone else that is a good reader, because poor reading is often a symptom of ADHD. Our daughter loves to read too.

As far as the math. One thing that has been killing our daughter is the Friday timed math tests. They get 100 problems to do in five minutes. We practice at home and she hates it. One time she finishes in 4 minutes, the next time she only does 10 problems in 5 minutes. It is good we are haveing a break from schoolwork for a while before we get the testing taken care of.

I must say, that I highly recommend counseling for children. They have no negative opinions about it. They just look at it as someone "who will make my life better." It is really helping us learn how to help our daughter get through these learning issues. It is definately helping our daughter too.

I feel really, really good that we are going down the right path. Not rushing to judgement. Gathering all the information needed to make a plan.

... My daughter knows there are issues and knows that we are trying to help her get through them. It is so exciting to her.
This post sound SO VERY POSITIVE!:)

When I first approached our son about being tested, he reacted as I expected, but not how most people would expect an 8yo to react. He was so hopeful that there would be help for him. At the time, we really thought dyslexia (specifically dyscalulia and dysgraphia) were most likely, but I explained that we thought there was something different about his brain that made math and writing difficult for him. He teared up talking about how frustrated he was. Then, when I said, "If we can figure out what it is, there are ways to help you," he brightened up. Ever since then (It was September when this started) he's been excited. He tried his hardest at all the tests (and was even disappointed when they were over!) and, after getting the "diagnosis" from the school psychologist, asked me at least twice a week when we were going to the doctor!

The good news that I'll be posting on a new thread: he started 5mg of Adderall XR less than a week ago and is already seeing improvements!


As far as the math. One thing that has been killing our daughter is the Friday timed math tests.
Oh, this test has PLAGUED my poor kid for months. Read my new post in a few minutes.....


I must say, that I highly recommend counseling for children.
You know, I offered this to DS. I worry that there are things going on that he doesn't want to talk to us about. I even told him that he could talk to his pediatrician w/o me in the room if he wanted to. He thought about it for a minute, then said, "No, you can come in if you want to. I don't have anything to talk to him about." He just doesn't feel this need. I think/hope we've caught it early enough and have been working all along with building his communication skills and self esteem that it just isn't needed. Or maybe his ADD mom just understands him so well!:)

DH "refuses" to do the research; he asked for a reader's-digest version of info on Adderall so he knew what to watch for. I think this stuff is exactly the type of material that throws him into ADD hell (he's not diagnosed and really isn't impaired, but he has so many of the traits!). So, he picks up the important info about what is and is not related to DS's disorder as things come up and from talking to me and DS's teacher. All in all, I'd call us a success story.

Sorry for the ramble. I'm just excited that things are going well for another family like us! Whether your daughter's primary problem turns out to be AD/HD or it's a learning problem (which doesn't seem likely considering her inconsistent performance on the timed-math test), both are treatable!

Take Care

I'm very glad it went well.

She sounds very capable & competent.

Good luck & Happy Holidays

mctavish23
(Robert)

Have you also considered Autistic Spectrum Disorder? Our son is both AD/HD and ASD (probably Asperger's). She sounds a lot like our boy.

He can read at 235 words per minute, but reading out loud is difficult due to his social skills and language skills. He ends up reading to himself and emphasis is in all the wrong places since he doesn't understand nuances.

His handwriting and sports abilities are extremely poor due to the lack of motor skills. Handwriting has gotten to the point where he views it as torture. He wants to play basketball, but can't quite understand the team concept and has difficulty with eye-hand coordination and can rarely make a basket. Luckily, there are more individual sports, like swimming, that give him the self-confidence and team spirit he craves.

Aspies work according to their own rules - her acknowledging that her sister doesn't mess up her stuff as much could be indicative of that adherence to rules, routines and structure. Our son was getting into "payback" and responding/retaliating waaaay out of proportion to the perceived insult.

Are you sure she doesn't pay attention? Aspies are also known for inability to maintain eye contact. Our boy can almost parrot things he's heard when we were not talking to him.

As far as the 5-minute math marathons, our boy had to do those too and had similar problems - sometimes he would get almost all, other times, only one line. What helped was when the teacher sent home copies of the tests. I watched him and he would not skip a problem and move on. He had to work every problem in order and if he got stuck on one, he would work it regardless of how long it took. We practiced for weeks on how to skip it and go back - eventually he was outperforming the rest of the class.

Oh, that's another thing - time management is our greatest challenge. The 'lets get ice cream' comment should get a big OKAY, but around here, perhaps he's involved in something? Depending on what he's doing, we may remind him - hey, remember you wanted to get some ice cream? How about if you wrap up there and we get ready to go in five minutes? Our son can tell time, read a clock, but he still can't comprehend that we need to get ready at 7:45 if we want to leave at 7:50 and be there by 8. If we tell him we need to be somewhere at 8, he will refuse to get ready until 8 and then panic when he's late. Oh, another thing with our Aspie - 8 is 8, 7:59 is not 8 o'clock, 8:02 is not 8 o'clock.

BTW - what a cool mom you must be to your children to identify and try to address all these issues. Our 9-y-o is still struggling as we struggle to understand these things.

Good luck!

I just saw your post. I hope it is still ok to comment...
I notice that you may be thinking all ADDers are a certain way, but...

Wish me luck. The psych. has been seeing my daughter for two months now. We are finally going back in to discuss her findings. When she started seeing the psych. we did not consider ADHD at all. Even now it does not seem to fit my daughter exactly. We will see how it goes.

...exact fits don't happen, us ADDers are all different.

A run down of her symptoms for you armchair psychs. 7yo, second grade.
I have many of these

-aggressive and sometimes cruel to her sister.(this was the original reason for bringing her to the psych.)
-I don't think I was cruel to my sibling... but I wasn't very kind either a lot of the time.
-always kind to animals.
-animals always accept you, no matter what you say or do, or how you are feeling at the time.
-very difficult time completing homework. Takes many hours. Will not work independently for any length of time.
I had lots of trouble with this. My mother figured I needed quiet to do homework, so she sent me to my room, where there was a million more interesting things to do. What I wanted was to sit at the kitchen table, where I could have help to stay on task.
-Recently has started really disliking homework
-Nearly impossible for her to complete a multistep task based on verbal instruction. (getting dressed, etc)
-daydreaming (or busy thoughts as I call it now) gets in the way of this, hard to block when you are little.
-Does not pay attention when you are talking to her. Even about something interesting to her.
-again, busy thoughts, mind going off in forty directions. Do seemingly random comments come into this at all? They are triggered by something said 5 minutes ago, which sent the mind on another journey. Radial thinking like this, where everything is connected to everything else, is an advantage. It lets you "think outside the box". Great for problem solving and idea generating.
-Able to sit still. Not hyper at all
-me either. I'm not exactly slow mind you, I like to be active, but not unable to keep still. Not all ADDers are hyper. Some believe hyperactivity is a coping method used by some to kick the brain chemicals into gear.
-She can read pretty well and has excellent comprehension. Although when reading out loud she skips words and is very "choppy"
-reading is one of my favourite things to do.
-Difficulties in Math
-yes
-Able to concentrate when playing on her own.
-yes. To the point of "hyperfocus".
-Horrible handwriting.
-Arguementative and contrary. Even with things like: lets go get Ice Cream! No. Why not? I said NO!
-Often refuses to participate in sports, etc. Even though she likes the sport, she will sometimes just refuse. And I don't mean resist. I mean she absolutely refuses.
-extremely sensitive to any criticism
-yes
-Has friends, but has some problems with relationships too.
-yes
-No desire to be independant. Would be happy as a clam if we dressed her and brushed her teeth for her.
-very no. Quietly and determindedly independant to the point of undoing it and doing it again myself if someone interfered. Just a different way of being contrary!

She is scheduled for testing/evaluation in a couple weeks.

Even though I resisted taking her to therapy for a long time. I still think that sometimes we are overreacting to her issues. I will rely on the psych. who came very well recommended. We will see what happens tonight.

I look back and read the symptoms and it looks like a normal kid too?!? Maybe not? Parenting it tough. You don't want to over react but you dont want o ignore the issues either. Hmmm.
ADD "issues" are all part of the normal spectrum of behavior. Everyone does this stuff sometimes. It is when it becomes a problem to the person and everyone else around them that there may be something more going on. The brain chemicals are routinely missing the connection, rather than occasionally.

I don't know if this is of any help at all, I'm rambling again.
I found your post very interesting and hopeful. It is good to hear how positively your daughter is responding to her psych. and that she feels better about herself and her relationships.
Best wishes to you all

Everyones comments are helpfull. In general, I know that every child is different and each ADHD child can have differring symptoms. Still I see some symptoms in my child that don't fit. I am not in denial, just trying to observe everything.

As far as Autism, I have thought of it. One of my daughters quirks is how she takes everything so litteral. She often dissects our sentances and says we are not making any sense. When she dissects the sentances she is interpretting the litteral meanings of the words. I looked up some info on an autism web site and the symptoms seemed so extreme that they did not make sense. The whole "contrary" issues and her stubborness, and the way that she completely "tunes out" when addressing behavior problems seems closer to autism. Also, regarding the listening problems, we have found that she does understand even when not looking at the speaker. The couselor has talked about auditory processing issues, but I do not think that is a problem.

As far as sports we have turned to individual sports, because of the lack of participation in team sports. We did swimming last year, but I had to coach her personally because she refused to swim at the practices. I worked very hard trying to figure out ways to teach her, and it was very difficult. In the end we were successfull and she got most improved swimmer for her age group. Baseball worked OK too, because everyone gets a turn. Surprisingly, she can hit a pitched ball pretty well. Snow skiing is going well too.

You also talked about "payback" it is a huge problem. Way in excess of any reasonable response.

I find is interesting about the math tests. Barb stated that her child never passed the tests but your experience is closer to my childs experiences.

This is good therapy for me.

In general, I know that every child is different and each ADHD child can have differring symptoms. Still I see some symptoms in my child that don't fit.
I've found it difficult at times to "weed out" the personality quirks, age-appropriate behaviors, and purposeful avoidance from symptoms. My guess is that once your daughter is finished with the LD testing her doctor will be able to give you a more specific diagnosis. Then, it's a matter of experimentation to determine what her true limitations and strengths are.


One of my daughters quirks is how she takes everything so litteral. She often dissects our sentances and says we are not making any sense. When she dissects the sentances she is interpretting the litteral meanings of the words. I looked up some info on an autism web site and the symptoms seemed so extreme that they did not make sense.
The literal thing is VERY interesting to me. It's pretty appropriate for a 5 or 6 year old, but at 9 I'd be concerned. This could be a kind of manifestation of ADHD or an LD. What I mean is, sometimes we (ADDers) can't understand what's being said (or what we are reading) because we can't put the language together. It's almost like the teacher's voice on "Charlie Brown". We see your lips moving, but hear "Bwah, bwah bwah BWAH". It could be that she's trying very hard to piece it together, which results in a more literal interpretation. This is just a guess -- I'm "thinking out loud" (or on forum;)).

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that autism in particular comes in a pretty wide spectrum. The one thing that always raises a flag for me is the eye-contact thing. If your daughter is distracted when you talk to her, but looks you in the eye (even if it's only for a few seconds before she looks elsewhere), I wouldn't worry as much about autism. Again, her doc sound great and I'm sure she will be sharing a specific diagnosis soon....


The whole "contrary" issues and her stubborness, and the way that she completely "tunes out" when addressing behavior problems seems closer to autism. Also, regarding the listening problems, we have found that she does understand even when not looking at the speaker. The couselor has talked about auditory processing issues, but I do not think that is a problem.
My youngest son is "contrary". Every comment directed at him gets an opposing answer. If you say "The sky is blue" he'll say, "No, it's not. It's light blue!" Hmmmm. Wonder where he gets that...:rolleyes:

My youngest is not ADHD, but he's showing some signs of OCD. That's odd to me, because there's none in my family. Then again, DH has some tendencies.

Again, it's so hard to tell how much is personality, how much is reaction to being frustrated, how much is a disorder.....

Baseball worked OK too, because everyone gets a turn. Surprisingly, she can hit a pitched ball pretty well. Snow skiing is going well too.
My son's problem with team sports was mostly that he didn't want the other kids to laugh at him. It's kind of interesting, though, because he's not all that uncoordinated. It think he's just sensitive. He handles criticism and disappointment VERY well, but who would put themselves in a situation that makes them feel that way on purpose?


I find is interesting about the math tests. Barb stated that her child never passed the tests but your experience is closer to my childs experiences.

This is good therapy for me.
Me, too! DS just STALLS on every problem. I tried him on it this morning with little improvement, but he's due for a dosage increase. So, we'll try again tomorrow and see what we're dealing with...

"I looked up some info on an autism web site and the symptoms seemed so extreme that they did not make sense."

Just as there are different forms of ADD, there are also different forms of Autism. Most are aware of the classic Autism, or perhaps the Autistic Savant made famous by the movie, "Rainman."

Asperger's is a high-functioning version (his assistant principal challenged me since my son can talk). Check out:

- http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html

- http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html

- http://www.maapservices.org/MAAP_Sub_Find_It_-_Tips_For_Teaching.htm

The site is hopefully down just for now, but do a web search for Tony Attwood. For us, ASD was the missing part of the puzzle. Not to dismiss AD/HD, but for our child there was just something else.

The ASD explains the black-and-white thinking (even at age 5 we called him our little lawyer due to his arguing skills). He's also good at precedents - his grandparents had a terrible time with changing plans. With our son, if you say you're going to do something then you darn well better do it. I feared calling him in sick to school during first grade unless he was really sick - if I took him out for a family event, then I knew he would use that precedent for future "events" that made sense only to him.

A couple other things that now make sense with the additional ASD - his climbing! His toe-walking, his rocking - repetitive body movements, including the classic hand-flapping, are part of the ASD diagnosis. His intense hyper-focus is also part of ASD as well as AD/HD - he could tell train employees which cars were which and they were amazed by a 4-year-old child's knowledge! He can study the heck out of something important to him and recite all sorts of droll information but he does not know or care to know his own phone number.

Me, too! DS just STALLS on every problem. I tried him on it this morning with little improvement, but he's due for a dosage increase. So, we'll try again tomorrow and see what we're dealing with...
Break it down - our son first started with 1-minute tests on just the ones, twos, etc. He would try to use his fingers, but as I got dinner together, we did the 1-minutes until he started to memorize them - I'd shoot out a problem (3 times 5), then count to three and shoot him back the answer - oh, that made him mad! He just kept upping the competition until he got them all right before I could give him the answer. He was determined to beat me! Then we moved on to the 5-minute drills.

I did some more research on Autism yesterday. I found a really good site that explained the overall concept of Autism, then described the DSM IV versions of autism, then went on to describe the ones that were not in the DSM IV.

http://www.pediatricneurology.com/autism.htm

I'm happy and sad. I found the one that matches my daughter exactly. The "nonverbal learning dissorder". Besides the coordination issues, the main issue with my daughter is her inability to understand others emotions. During some bad times I have gotten extremely angry with her and she just looks at me with a blank face. She never breaks down and cries if you get mad at her. However, she is very emotional when it affects her. When grandparents leave she always cries, she is extremely sensitive to any criticism.

I think this inability to understand others emotions can be explained by the autism. Very autistic people don't even realise that they exist. The less severe autistic people understand their own emotions (mind) but not others emotions. That is my daughter exactly. We always described it as a lack of empathy, and thought she would get it as she gets older. However, she will be 8 in February so she should have it by now.

My daughter does not fit the Ausbergers symptoms because she has friends and friends are important to her. She just doesn't understand them that well.

Of course, I temper all of this with the fact that I am not a professional psychologist so I will discuss this with the experts.

http://www.pediatricneurology.com/autism.htm

I'm happy and sad. I found the one that matches my daughter exactly. The "nonverbal learning dissorder". Besides the coordination issues, the main issue with my daughter is her inability to understand others emotions.

I think this inability to understand others emotions can be explained by the autism.

This may actually be due to attention and not autism. Many ADHD kids can't read other's emotions because they have difficulties paying attention to the cues everyone else picks up. Autism, on the other hand, involves an inability to process the information once it's encoded.

So, it could be either. I know you won't jump to conclusions, but I just wanted to put that out there.