Son and wife are now separated with about 50-50 joint custody of 4-1/2yr old son. (My grandson).

Here is the history. After they were married (7 yrs ago, I was disgusted by the filth. piles of boxes of trash, and anything you can imagine were piled everywhere. the place was filthy. the stench of cat urine burned my eyes. I didn't even know at that time what OCD hoarding was. My son was aware of it and trying to help her change. (unsucessfully).

Children from a previous divorce lived with them. The husband was trying to get custody. multiple times child protective services investigated. Uncannilly, she was able to avoid unnanounced visits. if she saw what looked like a government vehicle approach, she would lock the doors and hide. one time she drove up to find them waiting. she lied about not having her keys and drove off. On each occasion (and many before), she and her enabling mother would work all night to clean up and hide the mess.

all of the previous children subsequently went to live with their grandmother (the enabler). then, my grandson came into the world. it broke our heart to see him in that mess. there was no place to crawl and he was restricted to a playpen or held constantly. he has developmental problems with his feet and legs to this day resultant of lack of use and minimal physical running, crawling, (normal toddler activity)

When they moved into another place, I told my son that something better happen as I would not see my grandson live like that. He was afraid to do anything because she would become hysterical and threated to take their child and leave him. he is also very timid and intimidated by her.

LAst Christmas, i came to get some pictures of my grandson for his great grandmother in florida who had never seeh him. Fed up with the mess, I confronted her. She cried and placed blame on my son: "he won't take out the trash". Believe me emptying a trash can wouldn't be possible because you'd need a front end loader to find it. the place, if possible was worse than the last, same familiar eye burning smell and food stuff everywhere.

Then, incredibly, she left him. perhaps because she knew I was going to call CPS. The reason given was they had no insurance, and she could qualify for medicare, if on her own. (access to medical treatment is a major influence to her she was diagnosed earlier in life as having muchuesen's. this is where a person fakes sickness for sympathy.)

Anyhow, my son did not put up a fight. she moved out to a place of her own. Any doubts as the my son's contribution to the squalor are put to rest by two subsequent warnings of eviction from her landlord. (landlord told me this). Then she served him with divorce papers. he tried to reconsile with her and she called the police on him. (a similar situation occured with former husband that she was able to get a personal protection order against) from that time on, my son never visited to pick up his son without either a deputy present or a video camera running.

at about that time, I called Child protective services and they took their time making an investigation. The only thing they would tell me is the child wasn't in danger. Whether that means she cleaned the mess up in response to the landlord's warnings or she managed to get advance notice. or, CPS has pretty low standards for filth. As a result, she was able to dodge another bullet as she knows how to play the authorities and stay under the radar, including moves from one county to another

Most probably because of the CPS visit and/or landlord warnings, she now found some charitable agency that provided (gave her?) a mobile home. all she has to do is pay the lot rent. After a month in the new place, i visited today, (On Christmas because I knew she was at her mother's) and took pictures through the windows. Every window has boxes of stuff (newspapers, empty cereal and other food stuff boxes, magazines, etc) piled halfway up the glass. the rest of the trailer visible through portions of glass was filled to capacity. Every single room was filled. I tried to get pictures of the inside but the flash reflection in the glass obscured other than those close to the windows.

my son has a lawyer and friend of the court gave the split custody but his getting full custody will be a fight. friend of the court will investigae claims that she lives in squalor, but they will make an appointment to see and she will have time to clean up. the previous landlord is willing to tell what he knows and i have some pictures, but it will still not be easy. adding to all of this is court records relating multiple CPS referal years ago. it also related a diagnosis of muchusen's. Since we've known her, all she does is complaing about illnesses, injuries and other malladies. she is also the laziest person on earth, has never worked and all she does is sit around in the mess when she is not out collecting more garbage at garage sales.

we have given toys and clothes to our grandson over the years. they seem to disappear in the mess. he never wears the same clothes as the new, old washed and unwashed alll are mixed together in the pile of junk.

perhaps the biggest issue now, is he comes to our son (at our house) with medicine all the time. she takes him to a doctor at the drop of a hat. she claims he has acid reflux and a doctor gave him first children's zanex and now an adult dose of prylosec.

even the doctors don't want to get in the middle. the doctor she took him to would not release any information. he finally took him to another doctor and his lawyer subpenaed his records. it appears what he has been diagnosed with is from her symptoms. she tells the doc he throws up all the time. funny, it never happens when he is here, including the last ten days (first part of holiday break). now, she will have him till preschooll starts up and get him back on the medicine no doubt.

so other than wishing she has a diabetic coma (yes, she is diabetic, but stuffs sugary foods in her face), i am looking for anyone with "been there, done that" advice.

From reading michigan law regarding child abuse, if the child isn't being beaten, molested or harmed, they won't act. i can't find anything about living in squalor or mental isssues of the mother. it may not be possible to proof the muncheusens unless she actually harms him and I don't want to wait for that.

Help.

I so wish I had helpful advice. I'm heartbroken.

I do want to acknowledge how I feel about your fight. I believe you and your son need to do absolutely everything in your power to get that child away from this woman.

I've never heard of Munchausen's Syndrome changing into Munchausen's by Proxy, and her other kids seem to have made it through, but I agree that you shouldn't take the chance.

I am shocked that the state of Michigan is allowing a woman who, by your accounts at least, is a neurological MESS to raise children when the father is willing/able. I'm also a little shocked that her repeated doctor visits and complaints haven't resulted in proper treatments for her neurological problems.

Good luck & I hope you find a way.

Persecution and confrontation is probably not the way to help someone with severe OCD.
Instead of being invasive and confrontational, you might try to offer help caring for the child and find help for her in managing household matters. If you can win her trust, you might find her to be grateful for any kindness that you may extend.

By now she does not trust you, and probably never will... it is hard to say, but that is my take on the matter. So maybe now there is no recourse .

OCD is a real illness and it is extremely common. It is almost as common as depression , but rarely treated.

People with OCD tend to be very shy and secretive, mostly because they live in a world where nobody is going to even try to understand them.

She may have other psychological issues along with OCD, as OCD is commonly comorbid with other conditions such as ADD.

With that tought in mind, your son may wish to have the child evaluated for neurological and psychological conditions. The tendency to have ADD and OCD is inherited and there may well be other genetic neuropsychological issues at work here.

You might try contacting her family and determine what their take on the matter is. Try to avoid creating a confrontation, as you are seeking solutions, not more troubles.

I wish you luck, you have my sympathy.

ME :D

My assumption is that you and others on this forum suffer from forms of OCD. I applaud you for being here and seeking help. Unlike you, my son's wife is in complete denial.

I am not trying to persecute her, but after 7 yrs of making gentle suggestions, offering to help, talking with her mother and learning the full scope, my only concern now is that a 4 yr old should not be living like this.

Offering to watch the child? That is exactly what she is fighting. She wants full custody. She doesn't like our "influence" on my grandson. Our "influence" is to provide a clean, safe, and normal environment for him with regular meals, regular physical activities and regular bed time in his own bed. This is opposed to sitting around in her mess, falling asleep on a mattress on the floor in her bed and finding his own food (dry cereal from open boxes laying around.

Not only has she resisted any form of self help and suggestions from doctors, family, etc to get help, but over a couple dozen years she has learned how to manipulate the social services system, getting medicade, welfare, and assistance from church groups, who feel sorry for her because they do not know her full story.

At this point, I fully understand she is sick, but the only hope is a difficult job of proving it to authorities because she is a skillfull liar.

I just want to draw attention to Speedo's post because I think that others in granddadj's situation might be at a point when his approach would be a good strategy.

It doesn't sound like this is even a remote possibility for granddadj (as Speedo & granddadj both pointed out), but Speedo is pretty insightful about what works.

BTW, I think Speedo's strategy (befriending and winning over trust) is better for most people, not just OCDers. People can be pretty defensive and there is the old addage "you get more flies with honey..."

The next time your son has custody of the child, have him take ther child for a full medical and neuropsychiatric evaluation.

Get medical advice, and get it in writing. IF the child is at risk for some harm from a medical standpoint, you then take it to protective services.

Get a lawyer and start documenting everything, and build a case, and be prepared to prove it.

If the physical and neuropsych evaluation shows that the child is in good health, and not at risk, then you probably have nothing to stand on.

ME :D

My assumption is that you and others on this forum suffer from forms of OCD. I applaud you for being here and seeking help. Unlike you, my son's wife is in complete denial.

I am not trying to persecute her, but after 7 yrs of making gentle suggestions, offering to help, talking with her mother and learning the full scope, my only concern now is that a 4 yr old should not be living like this.

Offering to watch the child? That is exactly what she is fighting. She wants full custody. She doesn't like our "influence" on my grandson. Our "influence" is to provide a clean, safe, and normal environment for him with regular meals, regular physical activities and regular bed time in his own bed. This is opposed to sitting around in her mess, falling asleep on a mattress on the floor in her bed and finding his own food (dry cereal from open boxes laying around.

Not only has she resisted any form of self help and suggestions from doctors, family, etc to get help, but over a couple dozen years she has learned how to manipulate the social services system, getting medicade, welfare, and assistance from church groups, who feel sorry for her because they do not know her full story.

At this point, I fully understand she is sick, but the only hope is a difficult job of proving it to authorities because she is a skillfull liar.