Are They Here to Save the World?
From the New York Times, January 12, 2006
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/fashion/thursdaystyles/12INDIGO.html

By JOHN LELAND


AT a coffee shop in TriBeCa one morning two weeks ago, David Minh Wong, age 7, was in constant motion. He played with quarters on the table. He dropped them on the floor. He leaned on his mother and walked away.

"Indigo Evolution," a documentary, is to be shown widely on Jan. 27.

"Tell him I'm strong," he said to his mother, Yolanda Badillo, 50. She sat in a booth with a neighbor, who was there with her goddaughter.

"I woke up at 2:16 this morning, and it wasn't raining," he said.

"I'm getting bored," he said.

At David's public school, where he is in a program for gifted and talented second graders, a teacher told Ms. Badillo that he is arrogant for a boy his age, and teachers since preschool have described him as bright but sometimes disruptive. But Ms. Badillo, a homeopath and holistic health counselor, has her own assessment. To her David's traits - his intelligence, empathy and impatience - make him an "indigo" child.

"He told me when he was 6 months old that he was going to have trouble in school because they wouldn't know where to fit him," she said, adding that he told her this through his energy, not in words. "Our consciousness is changing, it's expanding, and the indigos are here to show us the way," Ms. Badillo said. "We were much more connected with the creator before, and we're trying to get back to that connection."

If you have not been in an alternative bookstore lately, it is possible that you have missed the news about indigo children. They represent "perhaps the most exciting, albeit odd, change in basic human nature that has ever been observed and documented," Lee Carroll and Jan Tober write in "The Indigo Children: The New Kids Have Arrived" (Hay House). The book has sold 250,000 copies since 1999 and has spawned a cottage industry of books about indigo children.

Hay House said it has sold 500,000 books on indigo children. A documentary, "Indigo Evolution," is scheduled to open on about 200 screens - at churches, yoga centers, college campuses and other places - on Jan. 27 (locations at www.spiritualcinemanetwork.com).

Indigo children were first described in the 1970's by a San Diego parapsychologist, Nancy Ann Tappe, who noticed the emergence of children with an indigo aura, a vibrational color she had never seen before. This color, she reasoned, coincided with a new consciousness.

In "The Indigo Children," Mr. Carroll and Ms. Tober define the phenomenon. Indigos, they write, share traits like high I.Q., acute intuition, self-confidence, resistance to authority and disruptive tendencies, which are often diagnosed as attention-deficit disorder, known as A.D.D., or attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, or A.D.H.D.

Offered as a guide for "the parents of unusually bright and active children," the book includes common criticisms of today's child rearing: that children are overmedicated; that schools are not creative environments, especially for bright students; and that children need more time and attention from their parents. But the book seeks answers to mainstream parental concerns in the paranormal.

"To me these children are the answers to the prayers we all have for peace," said Doreen Virtue, a former psychotherapist for adolescents who now writes books and lectures on indigo children. She calls the indigos a leap in human evolution. "They're vigilant about cleaning the earth of social ills and corruption, and increasing integrity," Ms. Virtue said. "Other generations tried, but then they became apathetic. This generation won't, unless we drug them into submission with Ritalin."

To skeptics the concept of indigo children belongs in the realm of wishful thinking and New Age credulity. "All of us would prefer not to have our kids labeled with a psychiatric disorder, but in this case it's a sham diagnosis," said Russell Barkley, a research professor of psychiatry at the State University of New York Upstate Medical University in Syracuse. "There's no science behind it. There are no studies."

Dr. Barkley likened the definition of indigo children to an academic exercise called "Barnum statements," after P. T. Barnum, in which a person is given a list of generic psychological characteristics and becomes convinced that they apply especially to him or her. The traits attributed to indigo children, he said, are so general that they "could describe most of the people most of the time," which means that they don't describe anything.

Parents who attribute their children's inattention or disruptive behavior to vibrational energy, he said, risk delaying proper diagnosis and treatment that might help them.

To indigos and their parents, however, such skepticism is the usual resistance to any new and revolutionary idea. America has always had a soft spot for the supernatural. A November 2005 poll by Harris Interactive found that one American in five believes he or she has been reincarnated; 40 percent believe in ghosts; 68 percent believe in angels. It is not surprising then that indigo literature, which incorporates some of these beliefs along with common anxieties about child psychology, has found a receptive audience.

Annette Piper, a mother of two in Memphis, said that she had planned to go to medical school until she realized she was an indigo, able to tell what was wrong with people by touching them. Like a lot of others who describe themselves as indigos, she was also sensitive to chemicals and fluorescent lights. Instead of going to medical school, she became an intuitive healer, directing the energy fields around people, and opened a New Age store called Spiritual Freedom.

Her daughter Alexandra, 10, is also an indigo, she said. They play games to cultivate their telepathic powers, but at school Alexandra struggles, Ms. Piper said. "She has trouble finishing work in school and wants to argue with the teacher if she thinks she's right," Ms. Piper said. "I don't think she's found out what her gifts are. From the influence in school and friends she lays off these abilities. She's a little afraid of them."

Problems in school are common for indigos, said Alex Perkel, who runs the ReBirth Esoteric Science Center in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, a bilingual (Russian-English) center dedicated to "the knowledge of ancient esoteric schools and Eastern science," according to its Web site (www.esotericinfo.com).

Last year the center organized a class for indigo children but canceled it when families dropped out for economic reasons.

"A lot of people don't understand the children because the children are very smart," Mr. Perkel said. "They have knowledge like our teachers. They don't want to go to school, No. 1, because they don't need the knowledge they can get from school. So parents bring them to psychologists, and psychologists start giving them pills to take out their will and memory. We developed a special program to help them understand that they came to this planet to change the consciousness because they have guides from a higher world."

Stephen Hinshaw, a professor and the chairman of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, acknowledged that "there is a legitimate concern that we are overmedicalizing normal childhood, particularly with A.D.H.D." But, he said, research shows that even gifted children with attention-deficit problems do better with more structure in the classroom, not less.

"If you conduct a very open classroom, kids with A.D.H.D. may fit in better, because everyone's running around, but there's no evidence that it helps children with A.D.H.D. learn. On the other hand if you have a more traditional classroom, with consistent tasks and expectations and rewards, kids with A.D.H.D. may have a harder time fitting in at first, but in the long run there's evidence that it helps their learning."

Julia Tuchman, a partner in Neshama Healing in Manhattan, who works with a lot of indigo children and adults, said it was important for their families not to turn away from traditional psychology and medicine.

"I'm very holistically oriented, but many people who come here I send to doctors," she said. "I'm not against medication at all. I just think it's overused." When parents take children to her for treatment - she practices electromagnetic field balancing, a touch-free massage that purports to tune a person's electromagnetic field - she said that just telling the children that they have special gifts is often a healing gesture.

"Can you imagine a child going up to his parents and saying, 'I'm talking to an angel,' or 'I'm talking to someone who's deceased'?" Ms. Tuchman asked. "A lot of them have no one to talk to." She, like others who see indigos, sees them as a reason for hope.

Even disruptive behavior has a purpose, said Marjorie Jackson, a tai chi and yoga teacher in Altadena, Calif., who said that her son, Andrew, is an indigo. Andrew, now 25, was not disruptive as a child, she said, but in her practice she sees indigos who are.

"The purpose of the disruptive ones is to overload the system so the school will be inspired to change," Ms. Jackson said. "The kids may seem like they have A.D.D. or A.D.H.D. What that is, is that the stimulus given to them, their inner being is not interested in it. But if you give them something that harmonizes with the broad intention that their inner self has for them, they won't be disruptive."

She said that schools should treat children more like adults, rather than placing them in "fear-based, constrictive, no-choice environments, where they explode."

Ms. Jackson compared people who do not recognize indigos to Muggles, the name used by J. K. Rowling in the Harry Potter books to describe ordinary people who have no connection with magic. "I would say 90 percent of the world is like the Muggles," she said. "You don't talk about this stuff with them because it's going to scare them."

In the TriBeCa coffee shop, David Minh Wong continued to play with his coins and talk to his mother. Ms. Badillo and her neighbor Sandra McCoy said they have family members who don't believe in the indigo idea. Ms. McCoy sat with her goddaughter, Jasmine Washington, 14. In contrast to David, Jasmine listened serenely, waiting for questions.

Yet Jasmine too is an indigo child, Ms. McCoy said: "I always knew there was something different about her. Then when I saw something about indigos on television, I knew what it was." Like many other indigos Jasmine is home-schooled.

For Jasmine, who often sensed she was different from other children, especially in the public schools, the designation of indigo is a comfort.

"The kids now are very different, so it's good that there's a name for it, and people pay attention to what's different about them," Jasmine said. Like the women at the table she said that indigos have a special purpose: "To help the world come together again. If something bad happens, I always think I can fix it. Since we have these abilities, we can help the world."

I thought this was REALLY interesting... I personally don't believe the whole "indigo" theory, but still, it is definately interesting. To me, it represents a group of people who are more focused on the good traits which many ADDers have than the bad ones. But at the same time, they are only including ADDers with very high IQ's, and attempting to pull themselves into a separate group with a de-stigmatized label.

I don't like it; the reality is, that ADDers come from all ranges of IQ, and some have special abilities such as extra acute awareness for things (hypersensitivity, empathy, etc).

I took a class last semester about disability studies, and one thing we discussed was that throughout history, disability has always been the "other other". What that means is that other minority groups (for example african americans, and also later the women's rights movement) have shunned disability as a "lesser minority" than their own. Both women AND African Americans used to be called "disabled" (physically and mentally) by other people in society, and when the civil rights movements came through, they tried to combat that false label. But in the process, "disability" has always been the label which nobody wants - not somthing to be proud of, or to accept. And then, within disability culture itself, some groups try to distance themselves from other groups - for example, people with physical disabilities are often FALSELY thought of as mentally or psychologically disabled. Therefore, they have to point out to everyone that there is nothing wrong with thier brains. They are not a part of that disability group. This is especially true for the Deaf, but also other disabilities.

Then you come down to the lowest of the low: mental & psychological disabilities. Nobody wants to have a problem with thier brains.... everything else could go wrong, but they are still "people" as long as they are normal in THAT way. Heaven forbid, there might be somthing different about the way you THINK.

So my take on this article (about "indigos") is that they are people with ADHD who don't want to be seen as having a problem with thier brains. Not that ADHDers really DO have problems (that's debatable) but the truth is, there is a stereotype about it. So they are trying to establish a subgroup of ADHDers who have abnormally high IQs and other special abilities, and saying - "no, see, we're INDIGOS, not ADHD..."
or at least, their parents are doing that for thier ADHD kids.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that some parents are so supportive and are giviing thier kids such great levels of confidence.

But on the other hand, what about those of us who DON'T have an abnormally high IQ? If you split off the smartest ADDers from the rest, does that make ADD a disorder for retards?

Have you read "Childhood's End" by A. C. Clark ???

Sometimes, just being very gifted makes a child so different that today's world makes a misfit of him/her. The belssing is that the child is intelligent and will overcome limits imposed from the outside.

ME :D

AARRGGH, this is a tough one. A Normal might automatically think the Indigo thing is stupid. But ADDers notice the odd and unusual. Its what we are here for I should think. Most people ocasionally stumble across the truth, then pick themselves up and carry on. I think when someone who's attention is not under their conscious control does that, they betray themselves and their 'intuition'. Therefore, I think on the whole we should be better able to consider paranormal phenomena (that is stuff not yet in the science books but might be one day) than the rest of the population. We don't have to believe it, we just have to consider the possibility. If we can't, no-one can.

I'm certainly not averse to auras. Ever since I ended up working in a place with a poltergeist theres an awful lot I'm not averse to. The advantage to being an ADDer is that when we see evidence for something odd, we don't suppress it then carry on as usual. Thats why so many of our number were great scientists.

I'm not averse to the idea that the planet is in such great need it needs more natural problem solvers and that these were sent. I've often suspected the hippies were a previous wave of special people. If you think about it they were all concieved at a time when nuclear holocaust seemed inevitable. Due to their efforts, we are all still here. Its not neccessarily the reason hippies appeared, but its a possibility.

I also don't see many people of below average intelligence around here. In fact the board seems unique in my experience for that. I don't think theres a huge risk of ADDers being spilt into Indigos and Retards. We seem rather shorter of retards than the general population is!

So, new age waffle aside, I think there might be something to the indigo thing. There might not of course - but there also might. I don't object to the idea, per se. What I do object to is all the proud parents talking about it in front of Normals. The Irish say 'if you see a two-head pig - keep your mouth shut'. There is a good reason for that.

The world is facing some desperate challenges right now. We are going to need some real original thinking and its not going to come out of the state school system I shouldn't think. Well not until you can get a degree as a 'generalist'. I guess we'll see if there is anything to the indigo child idea after they grow up, but if they do have special work to do, it might be best done without all the Normals poking fun.

Its a tough one. Do you give your child pride in their difference, or do you attempt to mainstream them?

Well, depends on the child. I kinda wish I'd been medicated when I was younger. You can always quit medication later if you want to. Intelligence will always survive the most unsuitable education, but unfortunately qualifications are important if you want to put yourself someplace your gifts can make a difference, and that someplace is often in a mainstream society designed for specialists, not generalists.

Now if these children can force a change in society such that it becomes a happer place for generalists, I'll nominate the lot of them for Nobel prizes and put up statues in their honor! I'll sing hymns to them and paint my face purple! I would dearly love our institutions to be run by people with *more than one speciality*. We might finally live in a sane society.

So good luck to every one of them. It is not like a world run by ADDers could be any worse.

well... I guess I have to modify what I was saying in my post: I don't really beleive there is any REAL danger of AD/HD being split into categories of intellegence... first of all because I really doubt this group will ever attract a serious number of people but also because that's not anybody's intention. What really bothers me is that they are essentially describing ADHD, but then assuming that "the set of AD/HD characteristics" automatically goes along with high intellegence.

I know it seems like everybody on this forum is above average intellegence, but studies have shown that AD/HD is found across all levels of IQ. I haven't done much reading on this, but it seems like it would be difficult to show a lot of correlation between AD/HD and intellegence because (1) a lower IQ will probably mask symptoms of AD/HD (or the family or doctor might not even consider seeking a diagnosis becuase they don't feel the need). (2) what we see in "every day life" (as opposed to studies and data) is more likely to be stories of people who are very smart but undiscovered or abused. People love stories of the "hidden or misunderstood genius", or of somebody overcoming difficulties and barriers to become somthing great. Nobody wants to hear about the person who has difficulties becuase of AD/HD but also just isn't very bright anyways - there's nothing "glamorous" about those stories, and the AD/HD people with lower IQs are less likely to talk about it either.
(3) this forum automatically attracts a certain type of ADDer: the type who like computers. people who don't like to read very much or who really just don't want to have to think about all these crazy theories are much less likely to post, so it comes accross that everyone on the forums is "smarter than average". Also it's pretty hard to tell how "smart" someone is just by reading thier posts... or at least I don't think I would be able to tell. I don't know my IQ, but I definately DON"T consider myself "smarter than average" anymore, even though I used to think I was.

I'm not trying to attack what you said, it just kind of bothers me when people assume that ADHDers are extra smart - to me it's like saying that you need somthing to make up for the ADHD. I don't think we need that - I like myself with ADHD even though I'm not extra smart to make up for it.

I followed some of the links about "Indigo children". In one sense I find it delightful, and in another way I am a little disturbed by it.

I think the perspective of pointing out the wonderful side of the ADHD child is a good thing. On the other hand, I am botherd by people who deny that ADD exists at all costs.

Yes, ADHD comes with some gifts, but it also comes with some serious (and sometimes painful) defecits that we all know very well.

Could it be that some parents are so desperate for an answer for their child as to grasp at anything ? I know I'd be tempted. I have two kids, both with ADHD, and one of my 5 grandkids has ADHD in a big way (the others are too young to tell yet). Don't get me wrong, they are wonderful kids, but I see ADHD hurting them in so many ways, and I wish I could give them an answer. I think that a miraculous, spiritual answer offers an easy way out for a worried parent. I am sure the books on Indigo children are big sellers.

On the down side, I am bothered to know that there will be a few parents will forego traditional therapies in favor of the "answers" these books purport. Knowing that there will be tragedies because of it bothers me even more becase I'd really hate to see a bright, gifted kid suffer the hurts, and feel the losses that I have due to undiagnosed ADHD.

Another way to look at it is; You can call the disorder anything you want. You can even call it a gift from god, if you feel blessed. The thing that matters is that people who have ADHD do have special characteristics and do have special needs. IF those needs are met , and the individual is healthy, happy, etc. then it really does not matter what you call it.

ME :D

Being a clinician, I'm automatically skeptical of a "label" derived from parapsychology or holistic medicine.

This scenario automatically assumes they're "gifted," while I automatically want to see the data.

My reason for that is simply that I was trained as a scientist practitioner and won't take assumptions for granted.

I'm NOT saying that this is bogus. However, I am saying that in order to really understand and help these (and similar) children, it's imperative to know as much as possible.

If, for example, this group turns out to be merely bright children with ADHD, then research has already shown what works to help them; as well as what doesn't.

It would be interesting to see this hypothesis tested by more mainstream researchers.

To me, both personally & professionally, the main concern is making sure that all special needs children get the best services possible.


Thanks for posting this. It's very interesting.

This whole "indigo child" thing fascinates me almost as much as how widespread "alternative medicine" is.


AARRGGH, this is a tough one.

I don't think it's tough at all, although there are some lessons in it.


The advantage to being an ADDer is that when we see evidence for something odd, we don't suppress it then carry on as usual.

I really don't think that's an ADD trait. It's open-mindedness. I haven't seen anything that would make me think ADDers are more open-minded than normals. Perhaps just the ones that have managed to succeed in spite of ADD, which is usually the ones we notice unless we work with children.

That said, I don't see evidence for "indigo children". If someone presents it, I'll certainly consider it, but there's a much more parsimonious explanation: ADHD.



I also don't see many people of below average intelligence around here. In fact the board seems unique in my experience for that. I don't think theres a huge risk of ADDers being spilt into Indigos and Retards. We seem rather shorter of retards than the general population is!

While my "hunch" is to agree with you, and I'm still pondering this possibility, the research says otherwise. There doesn't seem to be a correlation with AD/HD and intelligence.

It seems that way on the forums because it's a VERY biased sample. More intelligent people are more likely to be using computers and more likely to have access to computers and the internet. In addition, a lot of the discussion in these forums requires a bit more neurons than the conversations at your local coffee shop.

In addition, more intelligent people will be more likely to be diagnosed & treated, for various reasons.



Its a tough one. Do you give your child pride in their difference, or do you attempt to mainstream them?

Well, now, this is an entirely different issue.

I don't need to believe in "indigo children" to think that ADD can be used advantageously. I don't need to tell my child he's got some special purpose to make him proud of his abilities.

What bothers me most about this is that these parents allow these kids to struggle, thinking it's all part of the process, when the kids' lives could be so much easier with treatment.

My DH believes that challenge builds character. I agree. I think my childhood challenges made me what I am today -- pretty capable of dealing with almost any situation. BUT.... I believe life hands us enough challenges that are unrelated to these disorders. Why not do what we can to eliminate unnecessary struggles?


Intelligence will always survive the most unsuitable education...

I don't know about that. There's some very good reasons (evidence) to believe that intelligence is somewhat dynamic.

Not that anecdotal info is all that helpful, but I've seen intelligence improve with education. The trick to achieving this isn't teaching "facts", it's teaching people how to think.


Now if these children can force a change in society such that it becomes a happer place for generalists, I'll nominate the lot of them for Nobel prizes and put up statues in their honor!

I'll be right up there with you. I'll also eat my hat(s) -- you can hold me to it.

I'm one of those people who at first was attracted to the Indigo viewpoint for my son, but have found that medication (which typically is frowned on in Indigo circles) has made such an enormous positive change for my son that I find I have mixed emotions regarding the whole thing. Yes, I believe there are characteristics described as Indigo that are absolutely ADD. There are others that are less black and white, such as a highly developed sense of justice and a lack of patience when justice is not being served. Some might say it's just a lack of patience, but when you see a kid rail against the injustices in the world more than those specific to themselves it does make you wonder about purpose. Of course as a mom, I'd love to have my child be a beacon of hope and a catalyst for change in a world that has seemingly gone mad. It's just that for his wellbeing and future opportunities I had to let go of thinking he'd just be able to function in a world that is obviously not a great fit for him. I had to accept that I had to take the chance that medication would help focus his abilities to be that change for good. I must admit that since starting meds (20mg Adderall XR daily) and getting therapy to work on peer relations I have seen more of the young man that can make great strides in his world. I no longer see a kid who is constantly trying to fit. I see a kid who realizes he doesn't always catch the queues normals take for granted. I see a kid who works hard on his weaknesses while not giving up the parts of his personality that at times exasperates others (teachers tell me he's very opinionated. I thank them). I see a kid who accepts his belief that justice is possible but is now able to control the urge to burn the place down (not literally, but figuratively). I see aspects taht can be explained by both viewpoints and for me they aren't so much different than they at first appear. There is a growing number of people who do not function so well in the society we are in. Is it really that they are not-normal or is it our society that is messed up and they are like the canary in the coal mine warning us all of how things might be? Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Heheheh. I'm feeling mischievious.

I can prove AD/HD people on this forum are smarter than people on other forums! Just try posting this discussion anywhere else. I was terrified of writing what I wrote yesterday. I had to write it because I thought it might be the truth, but I was still scared. If I'd posted that anywhere else I'd have come back to a pile of flames from people who will deny the potential existence of anything they don't already believe in. A general flame war would have ensued, some retarded mod would have butchered everything and I'd be a 'trouble maker'. The person who started the thread would have apologised for posting something 'controversial' and Haze would have been found at the Scene Of The Crime again.

See? You *are* all smarter than other computer users :)

This 'smart' business by the way. I reckon most people have too narrow a definition of it. Its usually used in the sense of an ability to juggle abstract symbols.


When I say 'intelligence' I mean more than that. My definition is more along the lines of 'ability to make oneself useful' ('utility'). This definition would also have to include 'being nice' (when appropriate), 'being creative' 'knowing how to achieve something' etc. It would certainly have to include 'open mindedness'. Not so open your brain falls out, but open enough to consider novel concepts without psychological discomfort. A good IQ score doesn't help you cheer people up, throw a dinner party, bring about world peace or notice something unusual - yet these are all to me necessary aspects of 'intelligence'.

I understand this defintion lacks scientific rigour, but what I mean to say is a low IQ score does not preclude intelligence, because it only measures one small aspect of it. A high IQ score does not necessarily confer intelligence either, I shouldn't think, not in any meaningful way. A psychopath can have a high IQ, but I don't keep many on my Christmas card list because they tend to stuff things up (my day, generally) rather more often than they sort them out.


>People love stories of the "hidden or misunderstood genius", or of somebody overcoming difficulties and barriers to become somthing great. Nobody wants to hear about the person who has difficulties becuase of AD/HD but also just isn't very bright anyways

As Deanna said in Star Trek TNG after she lost her empathic abilities "Spare me the Inspirational Anecdotes.." :)

> I like myself with ADHD even though I'm not extra smart to make up for it.

Christiana, in my opinion, you gave the clearest analysis of the flaws in a post of mine that I ever recall reading, and included a record number of points that had never occurred to me.

Haze,

That was very well stated.

This isn't an empirically derived "group" by any means.

In fact, my opinion would be that there would probably be considerable resistance to that.

I can prove AD/HD people on this forum are smarter than people on other forums! Just try posting this discussion anywhere else. ..... A general flame war would have ensued, some retarded mod would have butchered everything and I'd be a 'trouble maker'.



First, the lack of flaming for this post certainly does NOT indicate a smarter group. All it demonstrates is a more civil and considerate culture. There are forums whose rules against flaming are much more lax than here.

Second, even if the group here is "smarter" than the average forum, this does not indicate it's a random sample of ADDers or a random sample of normals by ANY means.

Third, a post about how AD/HD isn't really a disorder, it's a wonderful gift meant to better the world --- you really expected a lot of opposition to that on an AD/HD forum?




See? You *are* all smarter than other computer users :)

Nice try. No banana. Sorry...;)



When I say 'intelligence' I mean more than that. My definition is more along the lines of 'ability to make oneself useful' ('utility'). This definition would also have to include 'being nice' (when appropriate), 'being creative' 'knowing how to achieve something' etc. It would certainly have to include 'open mindedness'.
And you think that these are qualities more common among AD/HD than normal??? You should chat with Scuro sometime.....



I understand this defintion lacks scientific rigour, but what I mean to say is a low IQ score does not preclude intelligence, because it only measures one small aspect of it.
I agree, and that may be party responsible for the lack of definitive research. If ADDers score lower on tests all other things being equal, it's not much of a measure.

>First, the lack of flaming for this post certainly does NOT indicate a smarter group. All it demonstrates is a more civil and considerate culture.

I would consider civility intellligent, unless it was being used to enforce tolerance of something intolerable. Like you were being civil to the local Nazi.

Ok. I dare you. Go to Webmasterworld, tell them that while you were making a web page a poltergeist came and pinched your mouse. You saw it float off. It must be the most highly censored board on the net, being all 'professional' and stuff and those people don't just think inside the box - they live in it and like it.

If you don't have PTSD by the end of the experiment I'll eat my teddy bear. :)

>Second, even if the group here is "smarter" than the average forum, this does not indicate it's a random sample of ADDers or a random sample of normals by ANY means.

Hm. I've been around forums for ten years or so, as have many here I suppose. Its the first time I've seen mention of paranormal phenomena outside of a specifically new age arena that did not go down in flames. Usually started by people who like to go on about 'reality' while being oddly reluctant to define it.

>Third, a post about how AD/HD isn't really a disorder, it's a wonderful gift meant to better the world --- you really expected a lot of opposition to that on an AD/HD forum?

Considering how pleased a lot of people are when they find the right meds, I'd expected *some*. A tiny bit. Well Ok not that much at all really. :)

>You should chat with Scuro sometime...

You know, just a suspicion here, but maybe I possibly shouldn't? :)


McTavish said,

>This isn't an empirically derived "group" by any means.

>In fact, my opinion would be that there would probably be considerable resistance to that.

You know, I even went so far as to look up the word 'empiric' and 'empiric data' (which sounds like a far more sensible way of finding things out that the usual experiment and hypothesis thing, because it discourages seeing what you expect to see). And I still have no idea at all what your posts means. Help?<!-- / message -->

Haze,

empirical means that it's been derived by observation or through an experiment. (you probably didn't find it in the dictionary becuase it's "empirical" and not "empiric") So what McTavish is saying, is that the "group" of ADDers you're basing your claims off of wasn't designed for testing your hypothesis - rather, it's a very (VERY) biased group. There are lots of reasons it's a biased group... like we are all people who regularly use computers, and we are also all people who are open enough about our ADD to be able to talk about it.

That reminds me of somthing else... maybe the reason people on this forum seem to be more civil and open-minded about things is that having ADHD, we are more tolerant of differences in others. A lot of us have been trampled on, outcast, abused or just "felt different" for most of our lives, which makes a lot of sense that we would be less likely to crush other people's theories, even if we do think they're pretty wild.

On the opposite extreme... some of us have ODD or are just generally defiant... I've seen it before on some other threads, but usually it gets quieted down by a moderator or another member's personal story. To be honest, I really thought somebody was going to shoot down this article for a bunch of hooey too... I'm surprised that nobody did! Maybe the article was just written well somehow. I mean, I took the time to post it even though I don't beleive it in myself.

Thanks for the compliment Haze :) it does mean a lot to me that you think my comments are good!

I agree with the other people though, that the qualities you list aren't really intelligence at all... I would say they are more maturity and tolerance than anything else. And it makes sense that people on these forums would be more mature about ADHD related issues since we've all chosen to come here and talk about them... discover ourselves... etc etc...

Maybe you want to include maturity and tolerance/open-mindedness, etc in your definition of intelligence (you said that in your other post) and that's fine - but I still don't think it's really a valid definition. What would you say is the difference between intelligence and wisdom?

I would consider civility intellligent, unless it was being used to enforce tolerance of something intolerable. Like you were being civil to the local Nazi. :confused:
Well, while we're all defining our own terms, I'll use the word "daisy" on a regular basis here and I expect all of you to know I mean something close to the color blue.

I'd certainly buy that intelligence could include things like "streetwise" or "knowledgeable" even, but civility? I don't see a connection anywhere between those two words.

Originally posted by barbyma: Second, even if the group here is "smarter" than the average forum, this does not indicate it's a random sample of ADDers or a random sample of normals by ANY means.

Hm. I've been around forums for ten years or so, as have many here I suppose. Its the first time I've seen mention of paranormal phenomena outside of a specifically new age arena that did not go down in flames.

In my 17 years of forum & usergroup use, I've seen some pretty bizarre claims that could not be flamed without moderators putting on the brakes. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the sample who use this forum being representative of ADDers (or normals, for that matter).



<!-- / message -->You know, I even went so far as to look up the word 'empiric' and 'empiric data' (which sounds like a far more sensible way of finding things out that the usual experiment and hypothesis thing, because it discourages seeing what you expect to see). And I still have no idea at all what your posts means. Help?
"Experiment and hypothesis", or the scientific method, doesn't just discourage what you expect to see. If done correctly, it ensures your expectations do not affect the outcome.

To be honest, I really thought somebody was going to shoot down this article for a bunch of hooey too... I'm surprised that nobody did!
What good would shooting it down be?

It's one thing to debate something that's actually debatable, but this hooey - there. I said it. It's a bunch of hooey of the most ridiculous kind - isn't worth debating. I tend to pick my battles based on what I think reasonable people might actually believe. Shoot it down? It dug its own grave.

:( Well thanks Barbyma. Now that this has been off topic for five days it's nice to see that you have deemed the whole thing hooey! Glad I wasted my time posting to the thread about what I experienced regarding what I took to be an honest question regarding a different viewpoint that obviously folks don't have a lot of knowledge about. Glad to know it's all crap. I won't waste my time anymore. I'll just accept the line that everything is a disorder, the kids (and adults) are basically flawed, need to be medicated into submission and there is no redeeming value other than to try and figure out how to cope in the world. Sorry if this is sounding snippy, but really what makes your viewpoint any more valid than someone else's. I went out on a limb to speak to this topic and although I don't even subscribe to the Indigo thing in whole, at least it's a positive viewpoint on ADD like behaviors which quite frankly I don't find in the wider world. Mostly I get to hear how screwed up my guys are. Glad to see everyone here is so smart.:rolleyes:

Hmmmm. Well, I didn't say my viewpoint was any more valid than someone else's. I also didn't say that someone else's viewpoint was any more valid than mine!

I gave my viewpoint, which is: that it's ridiculous.

If you disagree with that viewpoint, feel free to start a thread in the debate forum and I'll be more than happy to defend it. In the meantime, my view -- that it's crap -- is my view, and it's not any LESS valid simply because it doesn't make ADDers out to be "superbeings" meant to save the world!

I'm rather baffled about why you would be so upset that ONE forum member gave a "negative" appraisal about something that you admittedly don't believe in. I certainly didn't hold a gun to anyone's head and tell them to stop reading this because it's crap. You're more than welcome to disregard my comments if you disagree and so is everyone else.

If only praise for "theories" is welcome, it's not much of a forum.

Indigo children were first described in the 1970's by a San Diego parapsychologist, Nancy Ann Tappe, who noticed the emergence of children with an indigo aura, a vibrational color she had never seen before. This color, she reasoned, coincided with a new consciousness.

cash only ,checks not accepted :D

Is she the parapsuchologist who has synesthesia ?


Me :D

Indigo children were first described in the 1970's by a San Diego parapsychologist, Nancy Ann Tappe, who noticed the emergence of children with an indigo aura, a vibrational color she had never seen before. This color, she reasoned, coincided with a new consciousness.

cash only ,checks not accepted :D

Are They Here to Save the World?
Yes

SB.

Christiana,

What I'm saying is that there's no research (yet) that substantiates this a being a "real" subset of ADHD (or anything else).

I also think that it deserves to be investigated to see what's there.

Once something begins to be discussed openly in the press and in print, then I believe it's worth further investigation.

tc
mctavish23 (Robert)

...such as a highly developed sense of justice... Oh my gosh.
Thanks for posting this.
OK -- so I call this the:
'I cannot tell a lie' G.Washington effect.

And please don't think that I'm being sarcastic or have made that last bit up; right now, I'm being very serious indeed.

It ties into something that you'll find that I have an obsession with, at least within ADD ... which is the concept of 'enforced moral consistency.'
If you're interested just search for "SB_UK" AND "enforced moral consistency" :-)

Great observation!!! (honestly)

...seriousness over...

and I'm looking forward to 'Butterfly effect' -
an IMDB 7.7/10 ... can't be bad.

Check out Casshern ... a new Japanese remake of an older tale.
This film is a representation in true art form, of the subject being
discussed on this thread.

I have only seen clips, but died and went to heaven during these dreamy narcoleptic paroxysms.

SB.

Hmmm.

Call it 'indigo', call it 'gifted', call it 'disabled'.....it is certainly...only...a different way of looking at, and dealing with the world.

Why is it 'bad' to attend only to that which is of interest, unique?

Why is it 'bad' to be unable to focus or concentrate on matters that are of little interest?

Why is it 'bad' to be forgetful of things that are....of no import to the individual?

Why is it 'bad' to hyperfocus when something consumes us?

Sure, it is differerent in the world as it is today. And it can be problematic for the individual....being late, being disorganized, impulsive, 'different' and not fitting in.

But all in all, as hard as it is to be differerant....perhaps we are some sort of evolutionary variant that, in the long run, will survive where more conventional, compliant lines will not.

It is always hard for those who are 'different' to find their place in the world. Sometimes their ways are so dysfunctional, they die away. But sometimes they are the survivors, the ones who manage to adapt to the world better than those who deal with the world in conventional ways?

I'm not at all sure that striving towards 'normal' is healthy. But I can surely say that it is not healthy for anyone to feel that their only hope is to adapt to the norm, that if they don't, they can't survive. Medication may provide a way for people with ADD to live in the world, as it is...while maintaining their unique perspective, and their ability to make changes.

Hell. I don't know. But it's intriguing.

Hmmm.

Call it 'indigo', call it 'gifted', call it 'disabled'.....it is certainly...only...a different way of looking at, and dealing with the world.


Yupsy -- and I think a friend of Hartmann is fighting the cause for over literal interpretations of Indigo Hunter meets farmer Gatherer.
Ok...
So Homer Hunter walks into a bar ... bit sad after a hard day out on the range, he slumps down on a bar stool.
Fatima Farmer saunters up to him from behind the bar
'...blue?'

'no duhhh! ... indigo ...'
Why is it 'bad' to attend only to that which is of interest, unique?
Why is it 'bad' to be unable to focus or concentrate on matters that are of little interest?
Why is it 'bad' to be forgetful of things that are....of no import to the individual?
Why is it 'bad' to hyperfocus when something consumes us?

it isn't, it isn't, it isn't ... it isn't.
:-)
Here's a doozy ... which characteristics are held by things that hold our attention? Which characteristics are displayed by something which may interest us? What do things that consume us look like?

Ask Homey - he knows.
Sure, it is differerent in the world as it is today. And it can be problematic for the individual....being late, being disorganized, impulsive, 'different' and not fitting in.
But all in all, as hard as it is to be differerant....perhaps we are some sort of evolutionary variant that, in the long run, will survive where more conventional, compliant lines will not.
It is always hard for those who are 'different' to find their place in the world. Sometimes their ways are so dysfunctional, they die away. But sometimes they are the survivors, the ones who manage to adapt to the world better than those who deal with the world in conventional ways?

That's it ... now all we have to do is work out a more highly granular defininition of 'evolutionary variant.'
Genes aren't going to come into it, neither evolution by mutation.
I sat watching neurones (immortalized -blast precursors) under a microscope a while back ... and watched as they were swamped over a very rapid period of time by bacterial infection.
Rapid evolution by mutation is for microbuggaboos, with doubling times of lower vs higher organisms (of whole cells) being minutes vs hours (and hours).

How about evolution of the mind? and emergent evolution?
Hell. I don't know. But it's intriguing.

Hell. Yes you do :-)

SB.

>But all in all, as hard as it is to be differerant....perhaps we are some sort of evolutionary variant that, in the long run, will survive where more conventional, compliant lines will not.

We can only hope!

Among my reading recently I came across the suggestion that there might be a gene that coded for the ability to preferentially notice odd data that stuck out from the rest of the environment.

Well theres a candidate for my genetic makeup thats for sure.

And when it comes to genetics, its not so much as case of us lot outbreeding and out thriving the normals I think, so much as using our own abilities to help ourselves and those we care for survive - and some of those people will be normals most likely. If the entire planet was like we are I shouldn't imagine we'd last very long - there being no-one to fill in forms..

Oh and by the way, I found another ADD forum. Can I say you were all right??

They were discussing psychic healing.

Oh the humanity! I have never seen such a tragic waste of pixels in all my life! There were two camps. Utter credulity and utter disbelief. The ones who believed in it believed it was some form of magic, probably caused by sucking up to god and pestering him, and the disbelievers disbelieved because it couldn't happen because a mechanism for such was not in their personal map of reality. If it isn't in their personal blueprint for the universe, it doesn't exist.

By the time I was nauseated so much I had to leave the computer, I hadn't noticed anyone who said they had gone to a healer to find out for themselves if it worked. No-one seemed to know about electrochemistry and inducing electrical fields, and those who ascribed psychic healing to a placebo effect had not asked themselves how much of conventional medicine was placebo effect as well.

In other words, I think the intellectuals hang round here so I take it all back. :)

Oh and by the way, I found another ADD forum. Can I say you were all right??

They were discussing psychic healing.

Oh the humanity! I have never seen such a tragic waste of pixels in all my life!
Oh, how I wish I could be surprised at this!!!!!

But, just take a good look around the supermarket. :p