I was not one to take naps consistently until after I had children, but I have experienced afternoon "narcolepsy" since young adulthood. I blamed it on various things, including mononucleosis, over the years, but now I think it's directly related to ADD.

I have noticed that over the past few years my need for midday naps has increased dramatically, and I can't "blame" it all on learning. In fact, during the worst of my symptoms, I could wake up from a 9-hour sleep and find myself napping for 3 hours after reading for only 20 minutes.

Since I've been taking Adderall, I've gotten by on a lot less sleep. I know, it's speed, but I'm not manic, yet I don't seem to need the extra sleep. So, I've gone from 9-10 hours a night (always been a long sleeper) to what I think is a more normal 7-8 hours. Plus, I was taking naps 4-5 days a week and I haven't taken a single nap in 2 months.

I think this sleep pattern is consistent with the reduced dopamine function.

Anyone else notice they slept a lot before treatment?

I sleep less now that I am on Concerta. B/4, I was always in bed by 10:00 pm and dead tired - up at 7:00 am on weekdays and 8-9:00 am on weekends. Naps during the day although not on a regular basis.

Now I am lucky if I go to bed b/4 midnight and still get up at 7:00 am. The major difference is when I get up I am not so tired and worn out; sometimes I even feel like I slept. :D

I am not on any meds, but I don't need any more sleep than average. My schedule is very irregular, but I generally feel good if I get 7-8 hours of sleep a night.

I am also on concerta and I definetely feel like I need to sleep less. I am concerned about this actually. Before it was 7 or 8 hours, never had a problem sleeping. Now it's 5-6 and sleep better than ever, if possible. Waking up and getting up after going to bed really late is very easy now. I don't take naps. The only way I can sleep 7-8 hours now is by exercising in the morning (running or swimming). I feel like Concerta wants me to exercise more. Can you say that?

Hmm, I have more difficulties to get up now. Maybe I'm more active during the day?????

If I only get 6 or 7 hours of sleep I feel extremely tired waking up. Even after 8 or so I still feel tired.

I usually go to bed around 10:30 and wake up around 7:15. :confused:

I used to sleep 8 hours a night on average.
Since going on combined adhd/depression medication I sleep 4-6 hours a night only.

I feel like Concerta wants me to exercise more. Can you say that?
Well, I can't say that, but I definitely relate to the sleeping better part.

I used to sleep well, but would still get so sluggish. Now I still have a difficult time wakening, but once I'm going, I don't stop until 11 or so (I get up around 6 on the weekdays).

I was not one to take naps consistently until after I had children, but I have experienced afternoon "narcolepsy" since young adulthood. I blamed it on various things, including mononucleosis, over the years, but now I think it's directly related to ADD.

I have noticed that over the past few years my need for midday naps has increased dramatically, and I can't "blame" it all on learning. In fact, during the worst of my symptoms, I could wake up from a 9-hour sleep and find myself napping for 3 hours after reading for only 20 minutes.

Since I've been taking Adderall, I've gotten by on a lot less sleep. I know, it's speed, but I'm not manic, yet I don't seem to need the extra sleep. So, I've gone from 9-10 hours a night (always been a long sleeper) to what I think is a more normal 7-8 hours. Plus, I was taking naps 4-5 days a week and I haven't taken a single nap in 2 months.

I think this sleep pattern is consistent with the reduced dopamine function.

Anyone else notice they slept a lot before treatment?
Purely speculation here, but I think of it this way: without meds (stimulants specifically), our minds are left to instinctively seek out high levels of stimulation and subsequently, we are driven to "search" for sources of it (physically, mentally, etc.), even if we aren't doing so consciously. We are therefore expending what I believe would be a large amount of energy in attempting to satiate ourselves internally.

Before meds I would sleep like 13 hrs a day. I wasn't anemic, didn't have thyroid, and wasn't depressed. When I take drug holidays, I sleep more and people say it's because I'm crashing off the drugs. In reality, I'm just going back to the way I was. Now I'm having some thyroid issues, and am feeling REALLY tired, and miserable. My adderall isn't even working. Not sure what I'm gonna do.

Barb,

You are the one that showed me how working memory is affected by ADHD.

Motivation is entirely dependant on working memory. The longer we keep a thread in working memory the more we feel motivated to do it. No motivation = boredom = drowsiness = more sleep than needed. The other side of the coin is nicely described by buffalopc7. On the meds I spend most of my energy on production and a lot less on keeping the ol brain "fired" up or sleeping.

Bob

PS Was out of meds for a few days. Got a speeding ticket because I wasn't on my speed. Damn meds are cheap compared to what happens to me without them.

Purely speculation here, but I think of it this way: without meds (stimulants specifically), our minds are left to instinctively seek out high levels of stimulation and subsequently, we are driven to "search" for sources of it (physically, mentally, etc.), even if we aren't doing so consciously. We are therefore expending what I believe would be a large amount of energy in attempting to satiate ourselves internally.

I got mononucleosis this past summer and I'm 42. I do notice a big change in sleeping pattern still. I don't need naps but I do have days that by 5:00pm I'm ready for bed.

I don't feel my sleep is different from when I was on meds to now when I'm not on any. I never sleep more than 8 hours but as long as I eat right I sleep throught the night.

What has changed my sleep is my eating habits and the mono.

I have yet to be treated for the ADHD side of life but I have noticed that if I'm not active or stimulated, I become drowsy even on my current cocktail (lamictal, abilify, topamax, buspar) and trust me, focusing is a major issue for me. I have FMS and carry EBV so I understand the sleep issues, especially when the mono flares. I generally get about 6 hours a night but I can only imagine what life will be like if I can find a med that will help me focus without causing a cycle.

Lol barbyma, sorry. I meant for that to be impersonal, like "I feel like Concerta wants me to exercise more. [which is a pretty strange thing to say, so] Can one say that? I think i was missing a smilie or something :|

Lol barbyma, sorry. I meant for that to be impersonal, like "I feel like Concerta wants me to exercise more. [which is a pretty strange thing to say, so] Can one say that? I think i was missing a smilie or something :|
No problem. I was just saying that Adderall doesn't speak to me about exercise. In fact, it doesn't listen at all. It just screams it's arrival and pouts when it leaves.....

;)

We are therefore expending what I believe would be a large amount of energy in attempting to satiate ourselves internally.
Interesting theory, but it doesn't explain all the behavior. For example, it doesn't explain the sharp contrast of severe drowsiness (to the point of micro-sleeps) and full alertness that I often (pre-meds) shift to and from in a number of situations.

You'd also have a hard time convincing me that I've expended so much energy in 10-15 minutes of reading (even the densest material) that I would need 3 hours of sleep, even though I just woke up from a full night's rest and felt fine before sitting down to read.

Motivation is entirely dependant on working memory. The longer we keep a thread in working memory the more we feel motivated to do it. No motivation = boredom = drowsiness = more sleep than needed.
Another interesting idea, but once again, it doesn't do it for me.

I don't think the proximal cause of my drowsiness is related to motivation or boredom. If either were the case, the drowsiness could be kept at bay.

My drowsiness was so severe -- and so sudden at times -- that I could not fight it. It was VERY much like narcolepsy. I know that it is not narcolepsy, because with that disorder one goes from awake directly into REM sleep without any intermediate stages and absolutely NO control. I could at least feel it coming on, even if I only had a few minute's warning, and I could usually keep from going completely under.

I also know that it's not related to poor sleep. Although I tend to snore and grind my teeth, sleep deprivation would affect more tasks than this. An audiobook, for example, might give me a temporary reprieve, but it wouldn't eliminate the problem like it has.

I really think this comes down to dopamine levels. I think that the brain slows during concentration in ADDers because "pushing" dopamine also pushes dopamine transporters to work harder. Since the ratio of transporter activity to dopamine activity is higher, dopamine get uptaken at an even higher rate when we concentrate, as if we were standing in cement and thinking made the cement harden. Deplete your dopamine, the body can't function. So, sleep is the only mechanism it has to get you to stop so it can replenish.

Just a theory....

as if we were standing in cement and thinking made the cement harden. Deplete your dopamine, the body can't function. So, sleep is the only mechanism it has to get you to stop so it can replenish.

Just a theory....
That bit was really interesting, the idea of cement hardening...I like it!

I sleep, naturally, about 8-10 hours, but I've been known to sleep up to 16 hours, uninterrupted, when I had no "reason" to. I also wake up v-e-r-y s-l-o-o-o-w-l-y.

And then fall asleep easily again, especially if I've been reading. Before diagnosis, my doc checked my iron, thyroid, everything: she said my bloodwork and such is excellent. And I didn't score highly on a screening for depression, either. And yet, I am t.i.r.e.d. a LOT. Sucks! It's not crushing fatigue, just...tired! And I've gotten used to NASTY sleep deprivation headaches in the past few years (I'm almost up to taking more than the max dose of migraine medication for them), even when I'm getting 6-8 hours of sleep every night.

But working on a computer wakes me up INSTANTLY...something about the way it engages the brain?

I start meds tomorrow, so maybe that'll help. :D

I start meds tomorrow, so maybe that'll help. :D
I guarantee it. :)



Caveat: I'm not qualified to actually guarantee anything like that.....:rolleyes:

Interesting theory, but it doesn't explain all the behavior. For example, it doesn't explain the sharp contrast of severe drowsiness (to the point of micro-sleeps) and full alertness that I often (pre-meds) shift to and from in a number of situations.

You'd also have a hard time convincing me that I've expended so much energy in 10-15 minutes of reading (even the densest material) that I would need 3 hours of sleep, even though I just woke up from a full night's rest and felt fine before sitting down to read.

Maybe, but i'll argue that we are not always aware of the functions that our minds are performing. For lack of a better example, i'm referring in part to the "racing thoughts" people with ADD/ADHD often have, although probably to differing degrees, based on individual differences. In other words, maybe you aren't feeling like you are craving external sources of stimulation, but maybe your mind has other ideas and is expending energy unconsciously.
Another thought, is there a particular time of day/year when these episodes of sleepiness occur?

Barb,

You are right. buffalopc7 (what the hell is your real first name?) is right. I am right.

You turned me on to the mother load. "The harder I try the worse it gets." So here is a little experiment I conducted. As you probably know, I write code for a living. It was fun while learning but now that I know it sucks! Typical ADHD correct? No challenge to light up my prefontal lobes.

Try this experiment to whatever degree your circumstances allow. I started working outside on my deck in summer. Whenever my mind started wandering I'd let it. I'd look out into the beautifull view I have from my deck, then, whether it was seconds or minutes, BAM! the solution would come racing into my mind as if out of no where. The most magnificent algorithms imaginable would flow out of my demented mind. My client freaked and paid me a bonus. No ****!

The dynamics: I stopped taxing my dopamine transmitters. So you are right. However, that it enabled me to get and keep the thought thread in working memory. So I am right.

Now, in the past and still do on occasion, I'd start multitasking to light up my f_up brain. Read, doodle, whatever so that I COULD LISTEN to some rectal opening that thinks he's smart spew out BS I already knew to accomplish my job. It worked.

Or, to study stupidfyingly complex algorithms, I'd blast jazz so I could keep my focus. Tangent on intelligence: I wonder what cats like "Trane" and "Bird" would come in at on IQ tests. I tell you this, they were TRUE geniuses. Their algorithms BLOW MY MIND. Reduce me to mere ruble. At any rate, all that multi-tasking would wear me out. buffalopc7 is right.

So here is the deal: You are defining the underlying mechanics. buffalopc7 and I are defining what we do to beat our freaked up brains at their own game.

Barb. I admire you. You are a player. I am going for root. Hope you understand.

Bob

but maybe your mind has other ideas and is expending energy unconsciously.
Expending energy unconsciously? Huh?


Another thought, is there a particular time of day/year when these episodes of sleepiness occur?
Yep. Whenever I read research reports, drive (w/o an audiobook), sit in a meeting, sit in a class, attend a lecture, attend a talk..... And haven't taken Adderall.

You get the idea.

No, it's not due to diet, depression, or activity level. I have experienced this problem for more than 20 years with steadily increasing severity, tried everything I could think of to "fix" it, and finally "solved" it with Adderall.

Try this experiment to whatever degree your circumstances allow. I started working outside on my deck in summer. Whenever my mind started wandering I'd let it. I'd look out into the beautifull view .....

Now, in the past and still do on occasion, I'd start multitasking to light up my f_up brain.
I think these very strategies are exactly how I managed to avoid catching the ADHD until now. In fact, multitasking has been my #1 "strategy" for at least the last 6 or 7 years. It obviously helped, but I finally pushed it past the limit this past year.

I can "chew" on a problem instead of think about it, but I can't get by in academics w/o being able to read the research. I got through a lot by putting it on audio and reading while listening, but I think that finally did me in.


I wonder what cats like "Trane" and "Bird" would come in at on IQ tests. I tell you this, they were TRUE geniuses. Their algorithms BLOW MY MIND.
Interesting question. It could be a "natural" ability, or it could be intelligence, or both. I wonder.....


So here is the deal: You are defining the underlying mechanics. buffalopc7 and I are defining what we do to beat our freaked up brains at their own game.
To an extent. I'm trained to look at an explanation from every angle and figure out what it doesn't explain. The ideas (yours & buffalo's) aren't discarded, but the search for an explanation that encompasses more of the problem goes on....


Barb. I admire you. You are a player. I am going for root. Hope you understand.
Thanks for the kudos. I admire you, too! I particularly like your persistence; it's a great quality for a programmer.

I understand and that's where I'm trying to get, too. I could link dopamine & dopamine transporter to both the hypotheses you & buffalo gave, but I haven't gone there because neither explains my experiences.

The pervasiveness of this problem, coupled with what research has revealed, leads me to believe that this drowsiness is a direct symptom of the disorder, not an indirect one. In other words, I don't think it's caused by a behavior that caused by the disorder. I think it's caused by the disorder. In fact, I would go as far as saying I think it is the disorder.

Inadequate dopamine, due to overactive dopamine transporters, could explain how deficits occur in basically the same brain areas in all AD/HDers, yet affect a slightly different range of tasks. It could also explain all of the symptoms, both behavioral and physical.

But, I have avoided doing neuro research for the last few years for a reason, so I'll have to wait for someone else to find out!

"Excessive Daytime Sleepiness" is the #1 sign of an undiagnosed Sleep Disorder !!!

Do you ever wake up with your heart racing, or gasping for breath? Morning headaches? Wake up and cannot get back to sleep?

You may have Sleep Apnea. It is important to treat as it substantially rises your risk of dying in your sleep, or havng a stroke/heart attack.

When people stop breathing during sleep, their heart rate and blood pressure rise. Their body begins to secrete ADRENALIN, which promotes blood CLOTTING (eg stroke, heart attack, embolisms).

You are also at very increased risk of crashing your VEHICLE while driving, and other types of ACCIDENTS.

It is thought that up to 1/2 of all Motor Vehicle Collissions are due to SLEEPY DRIVING, or inattention caused by Sleep Deprivation. Drivers who are sleep deprived can be as DANGEROUS on the Road as Drivers who are Drunk.

=Remember:= Sleep apnea and other disorders can make a person Awaken more than 100 times per night!!! This fragments and *destroys* their quality of sleep, so they must sleep in the Daytime.


When you said you have had children -- so I take it you are not terribly young. You -=should know=- that ONSET of Menopause puts up a women's rate of snoring and Sleep Apnea EXPONENTIALLY. Estrogen and progesterone protect us that way. [NB. Snoring is a _PARTIAL AIRWAY Obstruction_ by TISSUE that is blocking the Throat.)

In sleep breathing disorders -- it is important to avoid sleeping pills, sedatives, tranquilizers and Alcohol. They all make the excessive throat tissue MORE relaxed and able to close over.

If it is not SLEEP APNEA, then you might have other Sleep Disorder(s) going on.

RESTLESS LEG Syndrome (or it's cousin, Periodic Limb Movement Sleep/PLMs) -- can also make you feel EXHAUSTED and SLEEPY during the day.

I find RLS also causes me Evening CALF PAINS. That is often improved by taking IRON supplements. You should know that RLS/PLMs too will worsens with age. (And Pregnancy!!!)

The TEST there is not the 'hemoglobin' blood test, but the STORED IRON Blood Test called the "SERUM FERRITIN".

Sleep Specialists want it to be up over "50." {Mine was 18 and my Family Doctor was insisting it was okay....Yikes! But to her credit, sleep is not her Specialty, right?}


Please: If you have INSURANCE, please ask your DOCTOR if s/he will send you to a SLEEP CLINIC as soon as possible.


This is very very serious.

Emma

Barb,

Pre-Adderall, I use to call what you describe an "attack." An irresistable tiredness would come over me. When I say "irresistable" I mean IRRESISTABLE. It was as if I took a powerful barbituate and there was no stopping its effects.

So let's talk facts: 1. It doesn't happen anymore even if I don't take my speed. 2. I intentionally do not take my meds 1 day a week because I was a speed-freak in my former existance. I just want to make sure I don't go there again. I have no attacks on my day off. 3. I forgot to call in my script and went without my dope for 3 days. Besides a damn speeding ticket I had no adverse effects other than cursing up a storm while working because I hated it. RE speeding: When the copper pulled me over I had no idea how fast I was driving and initially thought he was after someone else. Only another ADHDer can understand that one. But still no "attacks."

What has changed? If I stopped medicating for days or weeks would my "attacks" resume? Probably. But that experiment is one I am not about to try.

Another thing I know you and I agree on is Adderall IS the solution.

Bottom line: Adderall enables me to keep even onerous tasks in working memory and son-a-gun if I don't get 'em done. Speed is good! Just say "yes" to drugs. I know I'm a bad influence and should be shot. :D

Bob


[QUOTE=barbyma]The pervasiveness of this problem, coupled with what research has revealed, leads me to believe that this drowsiness is a direct symptom of the disorder, not an indirect one. In other words, I don't think it's caused by a behavior that caused by the disorder. I think it's caused by the disorder. In fact, I would go as far as saying I think it is the disorder.
QUOTE]

Another thing I know you and I agree on is Adderall IS the solution.

Bottom line: Adderall enables me to keep even onerous tasks in working memory and son-a-gun if I don't get 'em done. Speed is good! Just say "yes" to drugs. I know I'm a bad influence and should be shot. :D


We're probably both going to burn! :p

Queens,

I do not have a sleep disorder.

I do not wake up during the night (unless one of my kids yells for me) and I have no trouble falling asleep.

The symptom is not "excessive sleepiness". It's a sudden "attack" of drowsiness that goes away as quickly as it comes when the task of focusing attention is no longer required. It is a universal AD/HD problem, although many may not notice it and/or connect it to AD/HD.

When ADDers attempt to focus, the prefrontal cortex slows. This is well-documented in recent brain-imaging studies.

I remember from my phd program, the reading of papers was on another level. No more breezing through papers like as an undergrad. We had to actually read these very technical papers very carefully, and work out the math and so on.

I found this very hard to do. At the time, I attributed it to more of my "laziness" -- going slowly and carefully through a paper just wasn't my style, especially when I wasn't particularly interested in the results. Now I can maybe see that the mental effort itself was tough for me, although honestly, I can't recall ever having been made sleepy by them.

I found this very hard to do. At the time, I attributed it to more of my "laziness" -- going slowly and carefully through a paper just wasn't my style, especially when I wasn't particularly interested in the results.
Yeah, I attributed it to boredom, burnout, disinterest, anything but what it truly was -- attention deficits. I still can't believe I missed it -- especially since attention is what I study :rolleyes:.

Since Adderall, I'm suddenly in love with my work again! I haven't been this interested in years. I'm just glad I didn't drop out before now.

Barby I know exactly what you're talking about. I've experienced it as well and I definitely do not believe that it's sleep disorder.
What my experience was that when I was having difficulty with reading something and decided to try to force myself to get through it, I would first of all give myself a headache, but I would get tired, then increasingly sleepy until I felt like I couldn't fight it anymore. I've felt like I needed to just collapse on my book before. If I stop trying to read though (and chat w/ officemates, watch tv, etc), I recovered rather quickly. So, it wasn't really necessary to go to sleep, but to just take a break doing the thing that made me drowsy, trying to force focus and attention. Though, I have napped before as well.

I really think this comes down to dopamine levels. I think that the brain slows during concentration in ADDers because "pushing" dopamine also pushes dopamine transporters to work harder. Since the ratio of transporter activity to dopamine activity is higher, dopamine get uptaken at an even higher rate when we concentrate, as if we were standing in cement and thinking made the cement harden. Deplete your dopamine, the body can't function. So, sleep is the only mechanism it has to get you to stop so it can replenish.
Just a theory....I requoted this para because I like it! Especially the part I italicized.

I agree with you there can be a 'sleepy thing' in ADD; I've seen it mentioned often and observed it even more in my spouse than I do in me. I've also heard a number of ADDults report they were helped by Provigil for ADD, which suggests at least some overlap with narcoleptic mechanisms, at least for some people.

That said, I suspect this is another one of those oddities that can arise from multiple sources. I get the "gotta sleep NOW" thing more than my spouse, even if he is the sleeper of the century in terms of how much he needs. I know what it seems to correlate with in me.. sinuses which are sensitive to external conditions. Fog especially does it to me; instant sleepiness (an ironic problem for someone who chose to live as near to the SF Bay as I could for so many years {g}). But it's not only a barometric thing, it's some of the classic reaction to airborne allergens too. In brief, my sinuses are extra-sensitive to some things and when they swell, it cuts off enough oxygen to make me instantly sleeply. Like a sedative. And it's a royal pain! It always catches me unaware too, as I dont have the runny nose or red eyes or sneezing that usually goes with allergies. I've just learned to observe the external/internal patterns over time.

Hub is another "hypoactive" like me (or more specifically what I frame to myself as "high cerebral/low kinetic") and he looks more like a candidate for partial narcolepsy in terms of how many z's he needs to operate. But Provigil did nothing for him, so he dropped it after a test and went back to his more classic Rx.

My only real point here is that this might be another one of those "fever" issues where the same complaint could arise via a number of routes. But I like your dopamine postulate as one of those possible avenues, as it strikes me that could quite possibly be also true!

I start to get drowsy like that too when I try to focus. I don't have a sleep disorder and I don't really think it is becuase I need a break because it happens within a matter of minutes. I have fallen asleep in my book, and I have also just gotten up and left it and usually it goes away. Sometimes though, if I fight it long enough, it can take down my energy level for the entire day.

I am an undergrad and reading the txt's and journals etc are very tedious for me. I can't really win either way though, I'm either falling asleep or am too impatient to read line for line I find my eyes dart around the page and I read a sentence here, sentence there.. its either hyper, too fast random reading or its passing out reading.

I don't just pass out while reading though, it's also other things. Just about anything where I am not active shuts me down. Especially watching tv.

Barb,

I think that I am still correct about you, me and buffalo all being correct but was definitely wrong about why. My therapist recommended that I journal my thoughts, feeling, etc to better understand myself. I highly recommend journaling. It does for me as billed - let's me get a snapshot of my executing brain code.

I cut out a few snippets that may explain our differences.

I identified 5 common states of mind I experience.

1. Hyperfocus - I have peace in hyperfocus.
2. Restlessness - My brain is cycling and I cannot focus. I am miserable.
3. Sleep deprived - I am often sleep deprived because I cannot shut my brain off at bedtime. Fatigue greatly exascerbates my ADHD and makes me much more prone to depression. Paradoxically, or seemingly so, speed helps me sleep. Adderall enables me to burn out my energy and go to bed exhausted as long as I do not take it much after 1PM.
4. Depressed ...
5. Fear of failure ...

In his book "Healing ADD" Dr. Amen defines 6 ADHD subtypes. As I read over them, I can rule out Type 4 and 6 because the definitions have zero application to me. The logical part of my brain is SOOOOO happy. IT DOES NOT APPLY. However, types 1,2,3,5 have some application to me. Types 1 and 3 have the most. The logical part of my brain is NOT HAPPY. It must have ALL or NOTHING to be happy? OCD?

Let's look over Types 1 and 3.

Type 1 - Classic ADD - Inattentive, distractible, disorganized, hyperactive, restless, and impulsive. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Type 3 - Overfocused ADD - Excessive worrying, argumentative and complusive; often gets locked in a spiral of negative thoughts. Yes, yes - I love arguments, yes, and "sometimes" on the "locked in a spiral of negative thoughts."

Let's talk about "locked in." Once I get focused, I cannot switch tasks without a huge fight with my brain first. Examples: Thursday I was researching a business opportunity [a prospective partner] and I are considering. Friday I wanted to work on [current project]. It took me an hour (literally) to switch gears Friday morning. Was my brain "cycling?" Nope. I couldn't get it to stop analyzing the bus op. Friday at supper time: [Wife] and I planned dinner at the cabin. Didn't want to go to the cabin. Wanted to keep working on [current project]. Went to the cabin. Didn't want to go home (until I burnt my hand). And so my life goes. Battle to get focused. Another battle to get unfocused.

The ability to hyperfocus is how I "managed" before diagnosis. The inability to switch tasks is spawned by ADHD type 3 and exascerbated by my "fear of failure" syndrome. The reason why I would get irrestistably sleepy was spawned by depression not ADHD.

I detect a very honest person in your posts. I am trying to be the same so that all of us can better manage the "beast." Our differences in experience and solutions are coming from differences in ADHD subtype and the 10^1000 other variables that make us unique and diagnosis a NIGHTMARE.

Bob

Expending energy unconsciously? Huh?


Yep. Whenever I read research reports, drive (w/o an audiobook), sit in a meeting, sit in a class, attend a lecture, attend a talk..... And haven't taken Adderall.

I'm suggesting that the unconscious mechanisms of your thinking are using a great deal of energy to try to obtain a level of cognitive stimulation that meets your needs (probably high) and you are feeling the effects. Looking at your list of what you are doing when you are suddenly overcome by sleepiness seems to fit that description. If you sit in a lecture or meeting, or read, i'd wager that your mind is not feeling that it is receiving enough stimulation and it engages in strenuous unconscious cognitive processes. I am not suggesting that what you are doing isn't interesting to you, but your mind may not be finding it interesting ENOUGH. Adderal is a stimulant med and if you haven't taken it, your mind would be compelled to seek the level of stimulation (a therapeutic level for you) that it needs.

Barb,

Now, in the past and still do on occasion, I'd start multitasking to light up my f_up brain. Read, doodle, whatever so that I COULD LISTEN to some rectal opening that thinks he's smart spew out BS I already knew to accomplish my job. It worked.

Or, to study stupidfyingly complex algorithms, I'd blast jazz so I could keep my focus. Tangent on intelligence: I wonder what cats like "Trane" and "Bird" would come in at on IQ tests. I tell you this, they were TRUE geniuses. Their algorithms BLOW MY MIND. Reduce me to mere ruble. At any rate, all that multi-tasking would wear me out. buffalopc7 is right.

So here is the deal: You are defining the underlying mechanics. buffalopc7 and I are defining what we do to beat our freaked up brains at their own game.

Barb. I admire you. You are a player. I am going for root. Hope you understand.

Bob
Yep, exactly! I know that once I latch on to something I find fascinating, my mind will often refer back to the topic, reframing, theorizing, deconstructing. This happens all the time, but most often when i'm doing something that isn't mentally stimulating (by my perception). Boredom? Blah. I can't handle it, and my mind has probably trained itself to avoid it at all costs, even loss of sleep.

Buffalo,

I am an idoit. What's new you say? :D I was really irratated by your handle. I was parsing it something like this ... buff loc pc7. I couldn't remember it without looking back at one of your previouses. "Why don't guy come up with a handle I can remember #$%@, @#$$>" This morning I happened to see you are from Buffalo - the mistake by the lake :). And bam!!!!! I have this great gestault. It is not buff loc pc7, it is Buffalo pc7. And I wonder why teachers, peers, even employees think I a space cadet. Out of here. Off to Jupitor today.

Bob

Bob,

It sounds as if you think I'm dismissing your ideas. I hope I'm not giving you that impression.


Let's talk about "locked in." Once I get focused, I cannot switch tasks without a huge fight with my brain first.
I'm not sure I buy into Amen's "subtypes", but I certainly believe ADDers come in many flavors. The complexity of the brain kind of dictates this and it's consistent with other disorders, too.

I have the same hyperfocus problem. I always tell nonADDers that our problems are not a lack of attention, but a lack of control over attention. It's the control part that seems to cause all the problems!

I have the worst time going to bed at night when I'm working on something particularly interesting. I just can't let go!


Our differences in experience and solutions are coming from differences in ADHD subtype and the 10^1000 other variables that make us unique and diagnosis a NIGHTMARE.

YUP. There are many, many variables and they are probably at the root of the variation on these forums.

I'm suggesting that the unconscious mechanisms of your thinking are using a great deal of energy to try to obtain a level of cognitive stimulation that meets your needs (probably high) ..... i'd wager that your mind is not feeling that it is receiving enough stimulation and it engages in strenuous unconscious cognitive processes. I am not suggesting that what you are doing isn't interesting to you, but your mind may not be finding it interesting ENOUGH.
I'm not exactly disagreeing with you here, Buff. Maybe I can explain myself more clearly.

I thought, very much like you describe, that my "multitasking" nature dictated that I needed to engage in some additional task in order to stay focused. Experience certainly agreed with that idea -- driving wasn't a problem when I put on an audiobook and many times I managed in classes by grading papers during discussions or the like. Multitasking seemed to do the trick for all those years, so why not now?

We crave stimulation because dopamine is insufficient and stimulation releases more. The problem is that many of the tasks we need to complete also release dopamine transporters. The more dopamine we release, the more dopamine transporters get released. Unfortunately, in ADD, this ratio is off, so the transporters eventually "outnumber" the dopamine.

This doesn't happen with all tasks. In some parts of the brain, the ratio is fine, so we "hyperfocus" on tasks that don't release too many transporters because it helps us compensate. But, multitasking and/or doing only those tasks that help is not always possible. So, when we FORCE ourselves to focus on these transporter-releasing tasks, we shut down.

This idea is consistent with a body of research that demonstrates the slowing of metabolic functions as well as bloodflow in the prefrontal cortex that occurs when ADDers are forced to focus. The harder ADDers try to focus, the more the prefrontal cortex slows down.

So, IMO, it's not the exertion of energy or the stimulation-seeking, or unconscious processes that cause drowsiness; stimulation actually allows us to avoid drowsiness. It's the depletion of dopamine due to too much dopamine transporter.

I hope that made sense.

My sleep patterns are very haphazard and abnormal. I seem to need more sleep than most people. 10 hours is average but I can go as high as 14 some days, and as little as 5 on others. With no set schedule, I will fall asleep between 1AM and 4AM and sleep until 9AM-1PM. Then every third or fourth day I will need another hour or two in the afternoon. When I wake up in the morning I am very groggy and lethargic, and this feeling only goes away slightly as the day wears on.

Since I am self-employed and work by myself at home, I don't have a set schedule normally -so my sleep pattern typically gravitates to the above.

The times I was on various medications didn't seem to change anything. Caffiene (or lack thereof) has no effect either. I drink several Cokes daily, but they don't affect my sleep. I've gone on monthlong caffiene 'fasts' before to see if there were any changes, but there was no difference. Although, occasionally a Coke will seem to wake me up slightly. I have done two-month long periods where I swam almost daily, which seemed to help a little but not much.

I'm not very happy with all of this because it just doesn't feel right, but fighting it is futile. I get by, get work done and function OK, but it just doesn't feel 'right'. The only reason it doesn't cause a crisis is because I am self employed and not married.

I *can* alter my sleep patterns when it is neccessary - for business meetings, trips and social gatherings.

I can relate to the sleepiness coming on strong when I am trying to work on something uninteresting. Especially mundane household chores. I'll go take a nap thinking I'll feel refreshed afterward, but it doesn't do much but take up time.

I have seen a doctor about the sleepiness/fatigue which is why I've been prescribed antidepressants in the past. I have also had thyroid and diabetes tests, all negative.

Bob,

It sounds as if you think I'm dismissing your ideas. I hope I'm not giving you that impression.


Barb,

Not at all. Rather I KNOW you are telling the truth about your experiences and I am about mine and Buffalo about his so why the variance?

Answer is below:


YUP. There are many, many variables and they are probably at the root of the variation on these forums.
At any rate, at 54 l've been wrong enough times to know that it is at least possible for me to be wrong. Not very probably, mine you! :D But possible.

Actually, I don't mine being wrong as long as the one setting me straight gives me convincing proof. You always do. Ditto on mctavish23, uminchu and many others. Let's gossip about uminchu. It that dude's native tongue ain't english, I'm really stupid. He does english better than me and it is the only language I pretend to know.

Bob

Let's gossip about uminchu. It that dude's native tongue ain't english, I'm really stupid. He does english better than me and it is the only language I pretend to know. Thanks! But my native language is English, alas. Now if only my Japanese were this good...

- Uminchu (Ryan, native of SF CA)

Uminchu,

You are TOO honest. I'm pulling my Uminchu statue off my dashboard.

Barb,

It comes down to solution. Son-a-gun, I got it. That is, I got mine. I can beat my brain by keeping thoughts in working memory. How? Got a number of tricks. 1. Plan everything and write it down. 2. Plan everything before I have to do it - such as the day before. It gets me around the "harder I try the worse it gets" syndrome. 3. Write a problem on a piece of paper or on the computer. I was working and someone came up behind me to chat. I minimized the window cause I didn't want them to see ....

// what should I do next?
[a couple lines of code]
// what should I do next?
[more lines of code]
etc.

Write the question, let my brain wander, look at the question, BAM the code flows like an opened fire hydrant. I stopped taxing my dopamine reuptake thingys and the ol brain works.

Similar with reading. I got to read as fast as I can get my eye balls to scan the page and NOT worry whether I'm getting it or not. It is weird. I must be getting it subliminally cause all of a sudden a picture will emerge and I got it. I may and often do have to go back and nail a few details but mission accomplished.

Adderall. Man-o-live. Turns the after-burners on. Don't need my stupid pet tricks as often which greatly inproves my efficiency.

I got it. My ADHD is managed. I'm not saying I'm off the curve. I'm sure I will never be. But I got a sense of control and a sense of getting up in the AM and just can't wait to kick the tire and light the fire. Life is good.

Trouble is, I got a receipe not an algorithm. Will my receipe work for every ADHDer? ABSOLUTELY NOT. If I had the time and could get my paws on a comprehensive database of ADHD symptoms, ADHD causes, ADHD solutions, I write a diagnostic proggy. No time. No database. Though.

Bob

Write the question, let my brain wander, look at the question, BAM the code flows like an opened fire hydrant. I stopped taxing my dopamine reuptake thingys and the ol brain works.
Wow! That's great!

I think I was able to do this with a few strategies (putting articles on audio, multitasking, etc.) for quite a long time. Eventually, though, I hit a wall. Probably due to hormonal changes & task demands.


Similar with reading. I got to read as fast as I can get my eye balls to scan the page and NOT worry whether I'm getting it or not. It is weird.

Okay, this I TOTALLY get. In fact, it's gotten me ALMOST through grad school.

Unfortunately, at the PhD level, I need many many many more details than this skimming allows, no matter how many time I skim.



Trouble is, I got a receipe not an algorithm. Will my receipe work for every ADHDer? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Sadly, I think you are correct here.

But, sharing the "tricks" increases our "repertoires". They may not all work, but it can't hurt to try!

Barb,

Just want to make sure you know why I am picking on you. It was you that gave me the key. Man, when you said "the harder I try, the worse it gets" I know what I had to do. That was it. I had experienced it a billion times over. I have described it as if my brain would hit a concrete wall. The harder I tried, the thicker the concrete got.

Then ....

I read that one post and I understood. I have to base all my coping strategies on the principle "got to let my brain do what it wants to do to get it to do what I want it to do."

It works!!!!!!

Thanks.

Incidental, I fear no reading material. Just some requires more detail picking than others.

When I get a little more time I'd like to explore some other "anomalies" us ADHDers seem to have in common. 1st up will be chasing the fox is more fun than catching the fox. (Stop thinking dirty thoughts. My mind is pure. :D) And, after the fox is caught, gloat for a few seconds and then time for another chase. Know what I mean?

Later on that.

Bob

Just want to make sure you know why I am picking on you.

No worries; I don't feel picked on. I just wanted to be sure I didn't offend you.



Incidental, I fear no reading material. Just some requires more detail picking than others.

Lucky duck. My son has no problems with it, either. His problems are math & writing.

Of course, I hyperfocus on data manipulation, which is obviously a brain solidifier for you, so it's a trade-off. :p Of course, even though I choose to use it in my research, I don't have to make my living doing that stuff like you do.



:D) And, after the fox is caught, gloat for a few seconds and then time for another chase. Know what I mean?

TOTALLY. I even lose interest in the chase if it goes on too long.

One of my biggest deals with the ADD is that I am so freaking tired even after I sleep. Have had all the other checked etc... but no energy to do the simple things like clean house, pay bills,talk on the phone etc...

Hi Sissy;

Man-oh-man.....I can sooooo relate to what you said. I sometimes feel like this ADD thing would be OK to deal with if I could just have the energy to get things done!:mad: It feels often like a huge undertaking just to complete simple things....

It is frustrating beyond explanation. I am working on trying to find a remedy for this right now. I have tried taking a bit of l-tyrosine with my Strattera (Strattera makes the fatigue a lot worse) over the last couple of days, and find that it does help a little bit. However, it leaves my system after only a few hours, and then I'm finding I feel more tired than ever.

ARGGGG! This is soooo frustrating!!:mad: :eyebrow:

Have you found anything helpful for this? I am an absolute basket-case in the mornings.