I have a 12 year old boy that does the same. I am about to loose my mind. My 11 yr old wants to move out. Our dr said to have my son put in a mental hospital for med evaluation this weekend, but first we had to go to a regular ER to get clearance. The idiot dr there tried to accuse me of abuse didnt see anything wrong with my 12 yr old even though the 11 yr was telling her that his brother was always beating him up, I was telling her that, he Dr of 1.5 yrs told her that, but my son was in denial, so she beleived him and after 6 hours of sitting there we were sent home. things were fine until last night when the 12 yr old stepped on my 11yr old chest and face, giving him a black eye and leaving marks on his chest. (i got out the camera this time). I just I will spend tons of $$ have have cameras installed in their bedroom. I am a single mom that gets $220 a month in child support, they have to share a room. I cant leave them alone for 5 minutes. I just started college and have to take my 12 yr old with me or leave work early and drive him across town to the one friend house I have. There dad has nothing to do with them (and they both cant stand him anyway) I have no family close, I have asked the church for help. Our Dr is 'feed-up' and out of ideas, he suggestion is to put my son in therapy foster care. I was told that means I would loose him to the state. Is that SO??? I am so lost and cant take this anymore, my 11 yr old is begging to move out, he is afraid of his brother.

Mundy,

Let me quickly review what you have posted in other (related) threads:
Originally posted by Mundy
Both kids were dX with ADHD years ago. Oldest was said to have ODD and bi-polar, but we are not sure now.
Originally posted by Mundy
He takes Ritalin LA 80mg, tenax (?MG) mornings, Ritalin (short) 40 mg and tenax at 3 PM. And clonidine (?mg) at bedtime.

He has tried almost everything...lithium, adderall, dexadrine, buspar, etc
Originally posted by Mundy
...I am about to loose my mind. My 11 yr old wants to move out. Our dr said to have my son put in a mental hospital for med evaluation this weekend...things were fine until last night when the 12 yr old stepped on my 11yr old chest and face, giving him a black eye and leaving marks on his chest.

What disturbs me, Mundy, is that your son's doctor is prescribing stimulant medication to your son, who has been diagnosed (please confirm this) with ODD and bi-polar. I am not a doctor, nor am I pharmacist, but I have done enough research to know that stimulants are almost NEVER prescribed to people with ODD, as it can cause them to become highly agitated.

It certainly sounds like this is one of the things that may be happening here. When children get overly agitated, they tend to act out. When ODDers get highly agitated, they can strike out at others.

My (non-medical background) suggestion would be to talk to his doctor about getting your son off the stimulant-based meds, and trying your son on a non-stimulant medication, to address his ADHD.

Hang in there, Mundy...I'm sure others in here will come up with other suggestions as well.

Take a deep breath Mundy... we are praying and sending good wishes to you.

What a horrible situation to find yourself in... I am so sorry to hear about it...

Do you have any other relatives that can help out? It sounds like you are in a crisis here, and you need 24 hours of stability to reason things out, maybe with a friend or relative or counsellor to help you get the important stuff straight.

Try to hang on...

I have found a website that might help http://www.connectforkids.org/homepage1667/index.htm?state_id=408 I will also be posting another one as soon as i see a fellow chatter. It is the name of an org. that she used and if we can find one for you it assist you in getting time away.
hugs hon and i will be back in touch

Thanks Paul,
I wish that I had someone here to help, my boyfriend lives 220 miles away as well. I have been in Albuquerque 2 years and I have been so busy taking care of kids that I dont have time to make friends.
I am at the point that I dont trust Drs, counselors or anyone. Like I stated earlier I have even asked my church for help and got no response from them. We are on the waiting list for Big Brothers but thats another 18-22 months.
I called their dad and told him thanks for walking out of their lives.....didnt do any good, but made me feel better for a bit.

It sounds like you are in a crisis situation.

The only suggestion i have is taht the next time have the Dr. CALL the ER before you get there.

Suggestion: Call your Dr. and see if he/she is willing to do that.

The situation is dangerous, as described, here. Separation is required. call your DFS, again with your Dr. if you can, to see what can be done.

Stimulants are NOT recommended for ADHD with other mood disorders.

Sorry you are having such a rough time of it.

Safety first, then take stock of options from there.

In My Humble Opinion

There is more than one ER doc, and more than one ER? Try try again.

TTJ...ty, ty. :)

===========

Mundy,

I would just add that I agree with Wheel on his point about Safety First. Make sure you and both your children are safe, even from one another.

IMHO, taking your eldest son off the stimulant meds may reduce significantly, his aggitation and physical aggression. Talk to his Doctor before doing this. Perhaps, ask the doc to start him on a non-stimulant med (like Strattera) when you've taken him off the stimulant med.

You should make sure your son's doctor is aware that your eldest son is ODD & bi-polar, if he doesnt know already. Again, I have a hard time believing that his doctor is prescribing a stimulant med, knowing that your son has ODD and bipolar disorder.

In the mean time, if things seem overwhelming for you right now, stop and take a deep breath, and slowly let it out. How else can we help you?

What is DFS???? My dr called the mental hospital and the ER and spoke with dr at both. Neither the doc or the therapist thought we would have a problem at all.

the doc wants him in in-patient care, one for safety, two so his meds can be looked at better.

as long as my son is denying hurting others insurance wont cover anything with in my opinion is total B. S. do we have to wait until one of our children open fire on a school or burn down a house until before something is done??? Has insurance heard of preventive medicine?? Does insurance realize, when mom sees a problem and is begging for help that something needs to be done before someone is in a hospital or in jail??? I just dont understand.

I am looking at outpatient care right now......I refuse to give him to the state...I'd never get him back if I did that. But I have to keep my other kid and myself safe.

Mundy,

What type of Doctor is he? A Psychiatrist? Is there another doc you could have look at your son? Can you call his current doc about his stimulant meds, and ask if you could try a non-stimulant med for his ADHD?

As for the insurance companies...of course they want proof. That's where, unfortunately, video-tape may be the answer - even with your son's doctor's support.

yes, he is a Psychiatrist. my kids are on medicaid and straterra isnt covered. The dr wants to try him on zyprexa for a little while and then we are gonna take him off the ritalin, but not both at once. i cant get him in out patient for several days so i just have to do what i can till then.
I have called other drs in town and the next appointment is December 18th.

Has he tried Wellbutrin? I believe Wellbutrin has been used for ADHD as well, and is a non-stimulant med. I have been told it bears a striking resemblance, chemically speaking, to Strattera.

hugs mundy

Is there anything we can do for you right now. I am great at finding obsolete information on the web and would be more than happy to look for whatever kind of help i could find in your area.
Hon just remember you are not alone. We will be with you every step of the way. Here is a thought... maybe someone in this forum lives near mundy and knows the avalible resources in that area.

wish i could do more hon but do let me know if you need me to search for something.

i am open to any advice, suggestions, comments, ideas.
I am very frustrated right now, because I was counting on the ONE person I know in town to keep my oldest while I go to school tonight and I get get ahold of her. So I am afraid that I will have to take him with me. My last teacher allowed it, but I switch classes tonight and my new teacher is the Dean of Students. I am not sure what his reaction will be. Wish me uck

Great big hugs hon and lots of luck tonight. I know someone out there has answers for you and we just have to be patient. Its easy on my end but I know harder than heck on yours. All I can offer right at this moment is a prayer. Hopefully the chatter that has information about a program that "keeps" kids for parents will get back to me. She went thru similar problems a couple of years ago and found this organization that watches troubled kids for parents. I am sure we can find one in your area. Just hang in there and I will get back to you.
Until then please concider what big has told you about the meds. Remember change is a dynamic thing and often needs dynamite to begin the process.
hugs again

DFS is child protective services (Department of Family Services.)

You could see if your son, or you, could file assault charges against your son.

They really aren't leaving you with many savory options!

safety has to come first. you are trying to help everyone in the situation, and that you are balancing as well as you can.

I believe you, but "I can't believe" they are ignoring your family doctor too.

where do you live? Is there a TV station that doe s human interest stuff? Call them and see if they will help you prevent a crime by pressuring the mental hospital.

A crime (assault and battery) has already been committed. Call the city, county and state District Atty.'s offices and explain your problem.

Call juvenile court.

I'll say it. I'd stop the stimulants on the aggressive one.

I would not wait until December

I may be confused here, but if I call the police then I have my son taken away from me. I beleive this can be 'fixed'. I am afraid to get the state involved. I am in New Mexico.

Originally posted by Mundy
What is DFS???? My dr called the mental hospital and the ER and spoke with dr at both. Neither the doc or the therapist thought we would have a problem at all.

the doc wants him in in-patient care, one for safety, two so his meds can be looked at better.

I am looking at outpatient care right now......I refuse to give him to the state...I'd never get him back if I did that. But I have to keep my other kid and myself safe.

The State won't keep him past 18 or 21.

On the other hand...

I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but if one kills the other,

you lose them both.
:(

Mundy,

I think what Wheel is trying to say is (and I'm sorry if I'm wrong, Wheel), if you fear that your youngest son's life is in danger, or yours...you should not hesitate to contact the authorities, DFS, etc.

However, it sounds to me like your oldest has "just" started to hit and become agressive. I will reiterate for the third time (and only because I think its SO IMPORTANT), that you contact his doctor as soon as humanly possible to either take your son off stimulants entirely (at least to see if the agressiveness stops) or to try him on a non-stimulant medication for ADHD.

Agressive behavior such as your oldest son has exhibited towards your younger son is not acceptable behavior, and as Wheel has alluded to, may very well escalate, unchecked, to more serious and dangerous behavior. If he is truly ODD and bipolar, stimulant medication, is NOT the medication for him.

Originally posted by BIG
Mundy,

I think what Wheel is trying to say is (and I'm sorry if I'm wrong, Wheel), if you fear that your youngest son's life is in danger, or yours...you should not hesitate to contact the authorities, DFS, etc.

However, it sounds to me like your oldest has "just" started to hit and become agressive. I will reiterate for the third time (and only because I think its SO IMPORTANT), that you contact his doctor as soon as humanly possible to either take your son off stimulants entirely (at least to see if the agressiveness stops) or to try him on a non-stimulant medication for ADHD.

Agressive behavior such as your oldest son has exhibited towards your younger son is not acceptable behavior, and as Wheel has alluded to, may very well escalate, unchecked, to more serious and dangerous behavior. If he is truly ODD and bipolar, stimulant medication, is NOT the medication for him.

I'm rather interested in not introducing anything here that is my opinion, I'm not there.

The report is:
1) the 11 yo wants to move out for safety...
2) Mundy can't leave them alone for 5 minutes
3) their Doctor wanted the 12 yo in the hospital for observation for a) safety and B) med checks.
4) stomping in the face and chest and leaving bruises is ...

(Ok i'll add this: what it is, a violent and dangerous attack.)

Big, the kid wants out, the doctor wants out, the mother wants help. It is exactly as bad as it is.

Yes, your facts, as I read them, look correct. However, Mundy also said that the doctor was at his wit's end, and since he has not (presumably) considered that the stimulant medication is the root agitator, stimulating all this agressive behavior, addressing that item immediately, hopefully responds to your numbers 1, 2 & 3.

Indeed you are correct.

Mary, one of the moderators here, suggested that I post this excellent resource:

The Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health is a national parent-run organization focused on the needs of children and youth with emotional, behavioral or mental disorders and their families. They provide support and information on a wide range of issues and make referrals to local chapters. These local groups have support and advocacy components. For information about the Federation and the chapter in your State, contact:

Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health
1101 King Street, Suite 420
Alexandria, Virginia 22314
Phone: 703 684-7710
Fax: 703-836-1040
E-mail: ffcmh@ffcmh.org
Internet: www.ffcmh.org
====================
Each State has a protection and advocacy agency that receives funding from the Federal Center for Mental Health Services. Agencies are mandated to protect and advocate for the rights of people with mental illnesses and to investigate reports of abuse and neglect in facilities that care for or treat individuals with mental illnesses. These facilities, which may be public or private, include hospitals, nursing homes, community facilities, board and care homes, homeless shelters, jails, and prisons. Agencies provide advocacy services or conduct investigations to address issues that arise during transportation or admission to such facilities, during residency in them, or within 90 days after discharge from them. Contact:

Protection and Advocacy System
1720 Louisiana Boulevard NE, Suite 204
Albuquerque, NM 87110
Phone: 505-256-3100
Fax: 505-256-3184
Toll-free: 800-432-4682 (Statewide)
E-mail: nmpanda@nmprotection-advocacy.com
Internet: www.nmprotection-advocacy.com
===============================
State Mental Health Agency
For more information about admission, care, treatment, release, and patient follow-up in public or private psychiatric residential facilities, contact your State mental health agency:

Behavioral Health Services Division
P.O. Box 26116
1190 Saint Francis Drive, Room North 3300
Santa Fe, NM 87502-6110
Phone: 505-827-2601
Fax: 505-827-0097
Help-line: 800-362-2013
Substance Abuse: 800-962-8963

I would like to amend one of my comments, where I recommended Wellbutrin as a replacement for the Ritalin your older son is taking.

I am of course, not a physician, and dont know what the drug-drug interaction might be between Wellbutrin and the other meds your son is on. So the best recommendation I can make, is to get your doctor to get your son off of his stimulant meds as soon as possible. If your doctor agrees that wellbutrin might be a good med to try, then by all means, that might be the way to go.

Andrew!

Very Good!

THANKS, his Dr agreed to take him off ritalin!!!

I need GOOD counseling here that easy to work into my schedule. Any good resourses out there?????

with further research I remember what the Dr said, my son might have IED, ODD, antisocial personality disorder, depression, (shall I go on)?

I might suggest getting a definitive set of diagnoses. It would really help to then determine future courses of treatment.

I'm still rooting for you.

Do you need anything at this point?

A brain

Hang in there Mundy, I know this has to be draining.

I don't know if you have read many of my posts but my daughter who was just recently dx'd with bipolar, OCD & ODD on top of the AD/HD that she was dx'd with back in 1996.

Anyways, she doesn't have any siblings to throw her aggression out on so she does it with my husband, who is not her bio-father. Then to top it off, instead of my husband being an adult and not fight back with her, instead they get into a verbal fight and before long I have things flying through the air becuz she is madder than all hell at him. And to top it off, my husband is constantly yelling at her for every little thing regardless how frivolous it may be. There are times I just want to find a big rock and hide under it. (hmm wonder if bigs offer still stands since he moved for that big rock..hee hee)

Hon, I can relate with what you are going through, but hang in there, I'm sure you will find a solution before long and if not. Then nag that doctor until a solution comes about. I would and I wouldn't be nice about it either if it seemed like I wasn't getting anywhere.


Huggz

Originally posted by Spirit
Hang in there Mundy, I know this has to be draining.

Then nag that doctor until a solution comes about.

I would and I wouldn't be nice about it either if it seemed like I wasn't getting anywhere.

Huggz

Yep. Don't need to be too polite, depending on how you feel the situation stands.

Push equal to the importance.

I finally was able to find the info I was looking for. The orginization that a person I talked to was Respite Care.

They have a locator at this website.

http://www.respitelocator.org/


I know it is not a long term solution but possible it might give you some time to think. Good luck

That's AWESOME ttj!

Thanks :D

Originally posted by Mundy
A brain

A brain you have and it is doing a very respectable job too! and not at the expense of your compassion of good sense.

You are really doing well. that doesn't mean that 'things" will instantly "go your way" but you are, none-the-less doing the right things.

Thank you so much for these words of encouragement!!

You are welcomed and you deserve them. Keep up the good work and remember, just because you do the right things doesn't mean you'll get your way... but it does mean you'll have done the right things!

How do I get him to turn in home work and to stop lying to his teachers and to me? This is a copy of the emails between one of his teachers and myself:
Ms. Wood,

Bruce said that you told him he does not need to do paragraph 2 on reading journal #3, did you tell him that? He said that Monster's is in his locker and finished. He also claims that Reading journal #4 and junior great books #1 are the same thing and that he completed it last night. Did he turn any of these in?
Dear Mundy,

I'm sorry to say, but I am not receiving the missing assignments from Bruce. He said his "Monsters" paragraph was at home and he couldn't find his Reading Journal. I have tried to support, encourage, and guide Bruce to success, but am very concerned with recent progress, or lack of progress. Tomorrow is the last day of the nine weeks and the last opportunity to turn in these assignments. I am hoping Bruce will be able to produce these assignments. If he does not, I think we should meet and discuss possible plans. I want to work with you and Bruce to find a way for Bruce to achieve success. If you have any ideas or questions, please feel free to continue to communicate. Good luck.

Ms. Wood

Ms. Wood,
I have decided to just let Bruce deal with his choices in life. If he chooses to lie to us all then he will have to pay the consequences. I spoke with Ms. Moon and she suggested that I speak with his therapist again for ideas in the classroom. I am sending this to his therapist to see what she has to say. Ms. Moon also put me in touch with Mr. Glazier in regards to lunch detention, I will try to get Bruce in detention per every 3 missing assignments (in any class).
I have tried positive re-enforcement and that does no good with Bruce, I don't think that coming up there and going thru his backpack would do any good either.
Ms. Rudd suggested homework club, I tried that last year, but couldn't get him to go. I even went up there with him and he ran away from me, so I guess that is why I am pushing for the detention.

Mundy


Am I doing something wrong?????

Not really.

Chapter 24 of "Scattered, How Atention Deficit Disorder Originates and What you Can Do About It" by Gabor Mate may help you resolve your issue.

There is a tricky, I think, requirement on parents and adults, on how to deal with both such choices, and lieing about them.

To be a good long term experience, we must sometimes let our children "play in the traffic" but not actually let them get themselves KILLED. Making significant choices that have significant BAD outcomes may be required.

How we position ourselves is everything.

There is a difference between "detachment with love" and "abandonment with frustration."

I strongly recommend that you check out this book before you get to your therapist/doctor and give yourself a chance to understand, if not agree with Mate's premise and "advice."

I think this is one of the most difficult parts of parenthood to navigate and to finess. It is important, challenging, difficult, and probably requires local commizzeration.

I hope the book is readily accessible through your library or book store.

Remember. How you do what you do is your responsibility. What the results are are a potentially different matter.

Good Luck! - david

I went to the web site for respite care, but am still having a tons of trouble finding such care. This is so frustrating!

I am so sorry you are having trouble finding the information. If you post all of the particulars ie...county, city, maybe I can help.

Keep your head up and remember your not in it alone. We are still here with you.

I FINALLY got him in a mental hospital as an inpatient last nite!!! What a relief, someone was finally willing to listen to me and hear my screams for help.

I was able to find two organizations here. Parents Reaching Out and Parents for the Behaviorally Different Child. They have really helped too.

Thanks everyone

That is awesome hon. Good luck and remember we are as close as a post.

Mundy...

That's great to hear! Special thanks to TTJ for all your help.

I hope this begins to work out well for you.

You have done everything!

Remember, you cannot be responsible for the results, but you sure have done your part! Take heart in that!

remember to share some candid remarks and talk of relief with your other son. i don't mean to encoourage "ganging up on" but you both have been under agreat deal of stress, from different perspecitives. It is hard for kids to understand why parents can't just "do" what ever they want, even when they are old enough to begin to appreciate it.

We wish you the very best. Thanks for letting us know!

David

He has been in the hospital since Nov 7th and actually has a good attitude about it. They wanted to release him last Friday, I got an advocate from "Parents for the Behaviorally Different Children" to go with me to the meeting at the hospital and after speaking with the therapist she realized there was an entirely other Bruce that she hadnt seen. They suggested RTC, but I think we have decided on therapy foster care instead. Any suggestions?

Hi Mundy

Sometimes it's so hard with these kind of kids as you have to be cruel to be kind and save them from themselves. I haven't heard of therapy foster care but it sounds better than conventional foster care. If you think he will be better for it - then it's the right thing to do.

You are way more expert now in what you are doing than i am! Good luck though!

Well, Bruce was release to day treatment on the 19th, by the 22nd I thought I was going to go crazy. He was aweful. He was re-admitted as an in-patient yesterday. We are trying to find a RTC that can take him. I want him out of this hospital, but I can not bring him home, he is just too much to handle and my other son about had a nervous breakdown Sunday afternoon.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. I know both of your sons are getting the best rearing that can be had.

This is a very tough situation, real, and so story book endings may not come to pass.

It certainly sounds like you have given great consideration to everything, and have protected vulnerabilities as they defined themselves.

i wish you the very best of luck, and peace for all of you.

I wonder if you would find anything of assistance on Sam Goldsteins' web site? He is out of town until Dec 1... but apparently expects to respond to his own email.

The reason I thought of him is because he is focusing on "life outcomes" rather than "just grades" and that seems more like what you are dealing with.

Again, best wishes... D

How do I find Sam Goldstein?

I am very upset with the hospital my son is at right now. I met with his therapist on 11/14 and we discussed RTC and FTC. She sent out packets to all. I was contacted yesterday by a RTC that I really like. I told the RTC that we are waiting on FTC and they said it would be fine for Bruce to live at the RTC until the FTC comes available. So the RTC started the paper work to get him transferred. I then spoke with the therapist and the Dr. at the hospital, they said no to the RTC and we have to wait for FTC. Bruce is in the acute unit and I dont feel they are working with him at all. Anything he has been taught is horrible. They are telling him to "bargain" with me when I ask him to do something, they tell him that if he and I were shopping and his attitude was horrible and we left the store that I is my fault for leaving, not his. Yes I make the decision to leave the store, but it is because of his attitude that we left.
They also told him that if he goes into FTC and things work great then there is a problem with mom. But if he goes into FTC and has problems then there is a problem with Bruce. This made me so upset. Bruce and his brother lived with my parents for 1 1/2 years while I got on my feet after a divorce. It took about 6 months for Bruce to start acting out, but he did and in full force. My dad said that my mom and I had 3 choices either send Bruce to a Boy's home, me to get a better paying job asap, or my parents would divorce. (obivously, its not a parenting issue). I want my son out of that place, but I dont know what to do. Does anyone have suggestions?

http://www.samgoldstein.com/

wow this situation sounds so familiar my sister has had the same problem nobody wanted to believe her 14 year old was beating her and her younger son up finally she had to involve the police and have them right reports before anyone was willing to help i know it sounds awful but someone had to give and see he was having problems

Well he was released to me fully on Dec 4th. BIG mistake!! I filed a complaint against the hospital and a formal investigation is being done by the state. I am trying desperately to get my son in TFC now. We finally got to meet a family after the organization cancelled the appt twice due to illnesses. I really like the family and so does my son. He was ready to go with them last night. We were told at the meeting last night that he could have a 72 hour pass and spend the weekend with them...Yeah, my youngest and I need the break so bad!!! Then this morning I got a call saying that he has to have a day pass first and the insurance has to ok it as well before we can do the 72 hour pass. ARGH! Crap, now I have to deal with my raging mad man son even longer. I get sick at my stomach when it is time to go home from work, my back and neck muscles are so tight that my arms go numb. I have lost 6 lbs in 4 days. My dad had a heart attack at 35, I am 31. I am scared that the same might happen to me. My youngest is almost as bad, he cant sleep at night, his skin is so pale, his eyes are just blood shot, he is jumpy and shaking all the time. I have told so many people this (people in the medical field 'trying' to help my manic son) but no one seems to give a ****. I feel so helpless and powerless. Does anyone care? They say that he might be in a home by the 20th. Hell, I don't know if my other son and I will manage tonight and I cant seem to get this thru to anyone. What do I do?

Mundy!

Take a deep breath...

start.... let all the air out... wait ... gentle let air in... deepy ... wait ... let it out gently... wait... let go the control ... breeth normally.

You have done GREAT!

You have found a solution against incredible odds!

It is real and it is good for everyone!

There is a delay, and that is VERY HARD, but don't let go the realization that you have come so far!

ll I can hope to give you from here is some perspective... and i don't know how valuable that will really be...

... but it seems like you've done the hard part... now you just have to wait for the crop to grow....

Indeed, with some of the things, you will acually have to keep pursuing things, but future results will come.

I'm so sorry you are having such a hard time right now.

take another deep breath, and always remember to start with empty lungs, not half full.

It helps a little tiny bit. Take refuge in it if you can!

Mundy, take a look at www.boystown.org . They have lots of programs including RFS in Las Vegas and San Antonio, TX. They have a great philosophy and do take private placements on a sliding scale as well as state ones. If nothing else, they will have resources for you to check out. Good Luck & let us know!

I have TFC lined up (my son is on medicaid), they just are saying they cant get in to the home until the 20th. Heck if I stop this and go to boys town then I would be out tons of money, which I dont have, and then we would be set back even further on time. I do appericate the link and I will keep it for the future. I am just wondering how to live and keep my younger son alive between now and the 20th.

You're welcome! You've come this far....:) , just a little longer.

Can you arrange "visits" to the 20th placement between now and then?


Even if yo all have to stay there the whole time of the visit, it sounds like a safer environment for everyone.

a few hours break from the tension might help?

I dont understand what you are saying

sorry.

can you "take your son over to visit" where his placement will be, even if you can't "leave" him there?

He will be able to spend Sat with them from 10am - 7pm. The foster family lives about 40 miles away. I work till 5, dont get home until 5:30 and the boys will be home together from 4:45 to 5:30 starting today. I have college on Mondays. I really cant be driving 40 miles each way after work. If I took both boys they would fight in the car, if I left the youngest at home he would be upset and feel left out. I am just in such a tight spot. I am choking.

You know, for a "fix it" male... i've run out of everything but listening and commizerating.

I understand that has a good reputation as a place to START... but I guess getting there at all is better than never getting there.

I wish you and both of your sons the best.

Thank you, I do hope that I didnt appericate the suggestions. I am just at the end of my rope at this point and I have run out of ideas. I dont know why I am not able to get the medical community to listen to me. Sometimes I wonder if my son has to kill before anyone will listen.
I guess this is my venting arena too.

Thanks

Reporting th ehospital sounds like the right thing to do, but it doesn't help right now.

Looking back on the path you've had to walk, you can be proud of what you have done.

You have blended restraint with advocacy and persistence and reality. You really have done a great job.

I am so sorry mudy for such a horrible situation!! I cried reading these pages. I see a lot of great hearts and minds are with you. I am a little late to notice this post and don't have any advise or experience with this sort of thing.
Is there not a family who can just take care of your younger son temorarily? No doubt you've already tried that.
I am Hoping and praying for your family.
Janine

I finally got someone attention!!! I received a call from the place organizing the TFC and they put a rush on the insurance approval and said to bring Bruce in about 4 today. (we were told that he had to do a one day pass, then a 72 hour pass, then a day to think, then insurance had to approve, then we had to sign paperwork, etc and they were saying approx the 20th) They are placing him in the home on the 72 hour pass and if things go well then they are leaving him and not letting him come home to think about it. I am signing all the paperwork today and I got a phone call from the BIG man at the insurance, he gave me his cell # and appologized for all the times that things have fallen thru the cracks. I do beleive that my angel woke up this morning.....now if i could get someone to get ahold of my landlord and get my window replaced....LOL. My youngest broke his bedroom window Wednesday night (about 16 x 20 window thats 85% gone) and I cant get my landlord to answer the phone. It snowed INSIDE my house last night...ARGH. Oh well, I live upstairs, no one can get to it. I will go home, put plastic on it, pack my bags and my youngest and I are leaving town for a few days!!!!!! WE NEED IT I feel like I have lost 100 lbs. (actually I have lost 35 in the last 2.5 months with all the stress from Bruce...but I am not complaining).......Thanks everyone

Good for you Mundy! I think lots of people's angels keep hitting the snooz until the last possibe second.;) Enjoy your trip & keep us posted!

Get some much needed rest, Mundy...then come back & let us know how you're doing.

I'm very glad for you that the time table moved up!

You've done great.

well, my son is permant in a TFC home!!! Whew. (and my landlord sent someone to replace the window, so no more snow in my house!).
My youngest and I left town for the weekend and then he became very ill. Been out of school for two days with a high fever (it's always something). But my stress level is down.

Thank you all for listening to me vent

Thanks for checking back in here.

After all you've been through to get yourself out from under such a set of conflicts, its nice of you to think of us and let us know of your relief.

I wish your son well with the fever as well your son in TFC.

David

Well, we had a treatment team meeting this morning and a surprise was sprung on me. The foster family had deceided they cant handle my son, he is just way too much for them. They are taking him to meet another family tomorrow morning and if that doesnt work out then he is going to RTC.
Part of me is releaved that he has acted so bad for other people, Part of me feels HORRIBLE for the family that has put up with him, part of me wonders if my son will ever be able to be helped.

One major reason the family decided they cant handle him is because of his Encopresis. He is 12.5 and still doing this. He was never abused, no medical reasons for this to be happing. So why does he do it? I put up with it for 12 years and it drove me nuts, this family put up with it for 2 weeks before they couldnt stand it. He SMELLS terrible!!! I would think that he would be horribly embarrassed, but I guess not.

Has anyone seen this before???????????

encopresis


The voluntary or involuntary passage of stools in inappropriate places in a child over 4 years of age. Causes may be related to lackof toilet training or beginning toilet training at too young an age. Treatment usually includes psychological support and diet manipulation (high fibre diet).

I had to look it up, so I figured I'd drop it here.

Geeze, at a distance I'd figure, absent some sense of recognition or intention on his part that he is unable or unaware.

i would think that I'd be immensely uncomfortable and acting out all the time if I had that problem haunting me. Of course, having other problems might cause it, or in the worst luck, both mechanisms might be at work at the same time!

There is verification in the difficulty they have had, and from seeing your posts here I would take some resigned comfort from the reality check it provides.

I can also understand grief at the ramifications of the severity. i don't think one needs to exclude the other.

In any case, being out of your house is better, because he had developed dangerous behaviors with you and your other son that you were unable to effectively protect yourself from, even with warning and knowledge.

Others have different histories, abilities, and they are getting full disclosure from the outset, which is more than you ever got up to now.

I'm sorry for you and for him, but i trust this is still working better than it was and that small improvement is all there is to take comfort in right now.

Good luck.

Keep coming back here. Share a hug with your remaining son, and what ever comforting words, etc., that can be conveyed to your other son. Don't forget to validate yourself, and take comfort in knowing you have continued to do the best available to you against real and formidable obstacles.

Mundy, I am so sorry that the placement did not work out! I hate to sound like a broken record, but the Boystown program has specific treatment plans for encopresis and enuresis, too. It's worth taking a look at.

He moves in with another family tomorrow afternoon, they have all visited and feel comfortable with the arrangement. (although I have not met the new family yet). They are fully aware of his encopresis and said they have experince in this. My son was told that if things do not work with this family he will go in the RTC and he is accepting of that.

I have a list of several homes (RTCs) in the close area and Boystown is one of them. If all else fails I will call them.

Thanks

Mundy, I would not second guess the progression you have worked out. I think others have only been wanting to make sure that, by their suggestions, possible help stayed within consideration. I don't get the sense that anyone has been criticizing or trying to control from a "I know better" position. I sure hope I haven't!

This is a genuinely difficult circumstance.

I think the example you have provided both of your sons to maintain some priorities while seeking help is being reflected in your son's willingness to go where he needs to, if he needs to. That is quite mature for a young person in so much difficulty.

I continue to wish you all three well, and healing and comfort as possible on the way through this.

*crossing fingers & toes for you & yours* :)

You know, the trouble you had getting help for your son etc. reminds me of the 27 years I spent living in an abusive marriage. My late husband was violent and emotionally abusive, and I think he had some undiagnosed neurological problems. But try to get help for somebody like that! He would threaten suicide, etc.also, but he could also be competent and hide the difficulties at work 95% of the time. So people don't believe you. It seems to me that the ones who drive everybody else crazy don't get help--the victims can get help. The batterers, and your son was well on the way to this track, don't have enough insight into their own problems to get any help!

Surely somebody could see your son is a danger to others, if not to himself! But it can be hard sometimes. :(

I hope the time you have while he is placed elsewhere is a healing time both for you and your younger son. My children are in their late 20s and 30s and are still recovering, mostly well, from growing up in the home they did.

Peace,
Kathy E.

The 2nd family my son moved in with now can't deal with the encoprises either. The facility overseeing him and the treatment family told me that they were searching for another facility that could address his problems because they were not able to do so. I told them that I am fine with whatever and wherever he needs to go. I want my son to have the best help possible with the fewest amounts of moves. Several days later I was told that my son was the next kid in live for the RTC at the facility. I questioned this because they had told me they were not equiped to address his problems but they said that they have not been able to find any other facility that can address it either.

There has to be something out there. I am sure that he is not the ONLY 12 year old boy with serious encoprises. Does anyone know of any facility anywhere??? Any doctors or therapist anywhere that work in this field??

I hate to sound like a broken record, here, Mundy, but have you contacted Boystown? I know they have treatment plans for dealing with encopresis as well as violence and other things you may find helpful.

http://www.girlsandboystown.org/home.asp

I don't believe the website will address these concerns specifically, you will have to contact the organization directly. If you get the run around, go to the top man Fr. Val Peter. He is deeply interested in helping all kids and also tolerates no BS from his staff. The organization is NOT affiliated with the Catholic Church, FYI. If you can't find the help you need here, I'll eat my hat.;) Strength to you!

Here is a possibly helpful URL that addresses the causes and treatment of encopresis. One interesting comment on this page is that it is not behavioral but medical, however, many behavioral problems result (I guess if it were me that had this problem and I were 12 years old I can imagine what kind of self-esteem I would have, and how others might treat me, and my reactions to the latter.)

Here is the URL:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~smb4v/tutorials/constipation/encopre.htm

Quote:"In most cases, encopresis is not primarily a behavioral problem - children with encopresis do not have their accidents out of spite or because they are lazy. Rather, many behavioral problems develop because of the encopresis, and once the encopresis is treated, many of the behavioral problems may resolve."

Maybe you could provide the social workers, etc. with copies of the information from this website. It might help your son get proper medical care. I think it is unfortunate when things are treated as psychological when in fact they have a strong physical basis---just like A.D.D. is a neurological problem, encopresis is a gastroenterological problem, and should be treated by a GI specialist who knows how to treat it. And I'm not sure they all do.

Peace,
Kathy E.

We had a treatment team meeting today. Just before had the Dr of the facility decided that my son's problem is too acute for the RTC and he will be placed at a childrens phy hosp. the end of this week or beginning of next week.
I am much happier with this, I feel he does need to be in a hospital.
I called the boys town and they referred me to united way. thanks