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madd

02-11-06, 11:24 PM

mctavish23

02-12-06, 12:50 AM

Welcome to the Forums

I'm an adult dx'd with MBD (Minimal Brain Damage) in 1972.

Today that translates to ADHD -Combined type.

I went on to become a licensed(clinical/child) psychologist in Minnesota.

I work at a rural/non-profit community mental health center.

Over the course of the last 22+yrs, my practice has beocme 90-95% ADHD kids between the ages of 6-19/20.

I average an hour a night, 5 nights a week,reading studying on ADHD.

Having been trained as a scientist/practitioner, I'm biased against social construct ideas;as they aren't considered "serious science," at least not in clinical/practitioner circles.

As such,I haven't read any (serious) mainstream scientific research supporting evolutionary trends or social constructs,in particular, adjustments to modern society.

The first research study on what we now call ADHD was in 1902.

The study was really a series of 3 papers presented to the Royal Academy of Physicians by a London pediatrician named George Still.

The term he coined to describe the behavior of the children studied was "volitional inhibition."

This is actually very close to the way it is (largely) viewed today, in terms of ADHD being a disorder of inhibition & self-regulation.

I'm certain that other Forum members will have different ideas,which is why I like it here so much.

Many of the Forum members are among the most sophisticated and knowledgable consumers I've seen anywhere.

I've learned a lot in here and hope that you will enjoy yourself as much as I have.

tc

mctavish23 (Robert)

SB_UK

02-12-06, 03:05 AM

madd

02-12-06, 10:13 AM

I'm not surprised that there is no professional body of thought on ADD and Darwinism. This is probably the kind of informal conjecture you might find in the pub, or, in a chat room. The whole idea of ADD is so big I can hardly get my mind around it. Sure its a problem in my life but the things it effects are so basic and critical to my existence. Probably the same can be said about everybody with ADD. You can't help but have some serious existential questions as a result of living the ADD life. And as more and more people are are being dx'd, it begins to resemble a rudder steering society in directions that threaten its existance. Thats where Darwin comes in. I'm not a biologist, but if I were I might be able to come to some conclusions. On the other hand I feel that the Christian idea of the physical corruption of a fallen mankind seems just as plausible. These are all ideas that have been swimming around my brain and I wondered if others might have thought about them.

SB_UK

02-12-06, 01:55 PM

You can't help but have some serious existential questions as a result of living the ADD life.
And as more and more people are are being dx'd, it begins to resemble a rudder steering society in directions that threaten its existance.
On the other hand I feel that the Christian idea of the physical corruption of a fallen mankind seems just as plausible.
PS Welcome to ADDlantis :-)

Now, imagine Norman (Normie) and Adrian (Adey), and imagine Norman as quite short- and Adrian as similarly long-sighted; as always, or at least as long as Adey could remember back, he had had spectacles which perfectly corrected his vision, from just one step away from profound hyperopia, to pin-point perfection; he never ... ever, ever everevereverever went out without them and you could have been forgiven for thinking that he had had them surgically explanted onto his skull; Adey had great parents and they'd drummed the critical importance of wearing his glasses into him, from just such an early age.
Normie, however, quite the streetwise studmuffin, had realised, almost immediately, that his success with the ladies diminished wearing the reinforced steel jamjars, that he required to correct his myopia.
And so the collaboration began, between the apparently socially inept Adey and his hip, albeit vision deficit pal ... Normie. Perhaps, in retrospect, one might have said that Normie had 'vision deficit hipperactivity disorder' (VDHD) ... but sadly, at that time, no such catchy acronyms found their way to him.
So, one day, not too long ago, Normie and Ade were walking along, and just as they always did, were kicking about boyz stuff ... about balls and balls ... and balls ... and just having a great time. For some unknown reason though, and it hadn't happened before, Ade's left eye was caught by a small red button lodged in the side of a tree, barely perceptible ... but you know what Ade's like ... right??? ... forever distracted, distractible to the point of despair, for his loving parents, who just didn't understand why he didn't get with the program.
Anyway, so Adey walks up to the tree, and in very small print on the red button (maybe even Verdana 0.01), it says 'press to avert imminent destruction of planet Earth to make way for an Interstellar bypass between BweebleBrox and BroxleBweeb'. In the spirit of all great stories that're surely to be made into films, the red LED countdown timer is set at 5 ... no ... 4 ... no 3 (seconds) ...

Adey presses the button; Everyone lives happily ever after; The end :-) ; Credits.

"Any connection between Ade and Normie and real people is entirely intentional."

---------------------------------------------

Might this basic idea also fit with your feelings?

Do you like happy endings?

:-)

SB.

madd

02-12-06, 11:00 PM

Not exactly a Socratic search for truth but certainly a workmanlike plan for survival. While I would certainly like to survive I would also like to get down to the nitty gritty . I went 42 years before being diagnosed and I want answers. The unexamined life and so forth.

mctavish23

02-13-06, 12:37 AM

The best "cut to the chase " ADHD reference is The ADHD Book of Lists by Sandra Rief (2003).

It's really a giant lit review of the most important research of the last 15 yrs or so; in list form,w/references.

Thomas Brown's new book looks interestinig, although I have to admit I haven't readl it yet.

I do like his style of writing and find it easy to read.

I'm reading Russell Barkley's new book The ADHD Handbook : Third Edition (2005).

I would call this "serious nitty gritty."

good luck

mctavish23 (Robert)

SB_UK

02-13-06, 01:37 AM

Might I ask - what do you mean by nitty gritty?

If it's the apparence of ADD driving humanity out of existence, then my spectacular spectacles story :-) is the metaphor.
It's the metaphor underlying 'search for truth' too.

But as ever there are more than one truth and Robert has pointed you to texts describing the current medical model for ADHD as mental dysfunction.

Is that more down your street? -- if so -- I don't think that the take that you described on evolution, morality or truth will come up. Instead you'll see - something like ADD as caused by 'candidate genes underlying Executive dysfunction.' This approach to translating ADD possibly requires a little time out to understand EF (Exec Function).

SB.

madd

02-13-06, 02:29 AM

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=5>nitty-gritty </TD></TR><TR><TD width=20>A</TD><TD colSpan=4>noun</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD width=20>1 </TD><TD colSpan=3>kernel (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/kernel), substance (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/substance), core (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/core), center (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/center), essence (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/essence), gist (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/gist), heart (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/heart), heart and soul (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/heart%5Fand%5Fsoul), inwardness (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/inwardness), marrow (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/marrow), meat (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/meat), nub (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/nub), pith (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/pith), sum (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/sum), nitty-gritty
</TD></TR><TR><TD width=42 colSpan=3> </TD><TD width=33></TD><TD>the choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience; "the gist of the prosecutor's argument"; "the heart and soul of the Republican Party"; "the nub of the story" </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Sorry, I guess its an american euphemism.
Getting back to the subject at hand. I thinks its clear that ADHD is genetic. And its important to talk about how to live with it and how to learn with it and how to love with it. But just as important, and probaby more so, is what it means to the species. I mean what exactly is the genetic reason that such large percentage of the population has ADD? It doesn't give me confidence about the future of mankind. I guess I realize now that I'm not asking the right questions, of anybody, to get the answers that I'm looking for. You would have to be omnicient to answer my questions. I'm still gonna wonder. Its late and I'm tired. I'll talk later.

SB_UK

02-13-06, 03:33 AM

:-)

Perhaps I can point you to a thread entitled 'epigenetics and current research methods' (use 'search', 'Scuro', term='epigenetics') and can I ask for your opinion on whether it contains any element that you think might be useful in your enquiry ... ?

By the way, ADD as a classical genetic condition is questioned in that thread.

And then if so, maybe we can probe deeper, down that specific avenue.

The 'nitty-gritty' of ADD, I guess, doesn't yield the usual answer that I expect in my usage of the term -- though this may be my dialect. I guess I'd phrase the 'nitty-gritty of ADD' in fuzzier terms more akin to the 'tao of Zen' ... but then again, maybe I'm just exaggerating to make the point that the 'nitty-gritty' may not be something that you can be told ... just as I suggested above in the 'internal assessment scales' sentence.

PS Plato's second appearance here, and I think Socrates' first ... excluding 'Bill&Ted' of course ... It's kinda like the forum is experiencing 'revivalism' from 500 B.C.?

:-)

Most excellent dude (Either Bill or Ted - I forget which),

You've mentioned twice that you fear for the future of mankind.
What's so bad aout ADD that takes you down this avenue of thought?
Dude -- we're cool ... honest :-)
Why aren't you simply like Adie, and merely capable of seeing the problems around you with greater clarity?
Instead of being causally responsible for them?
And with this interpretation -- why isn't the workmanlike plan for survival, right at the pulsating heart of Plato's Socratic sentiment underlying 'the unexplained life ...'

So many questions :-)

SB.

So little time.

By the way -- what do liberal arts guys do?
liberate art? [ illegal in the UK :-) ]
campaign for proportional representation in minority coloured groups ... like indigo?
work out intelligent synonyms of 'democracy'? e.g. y c m.o.d. race?
... pertaining to your observation about the end of humanity.

tetsuo76

02-13-06, 06:55 AM

With evolution in the news lately, I've been wondering if there are any evolutionary lessons to be learned from ADD. Could ADD be an evolutionary adjustment to modern society, industrial revolution, technology, etc. Could we be the future of mankind? Or are we just an anomoly that will be bred out of the gene pool? Or is it none of the above? Are there any people with backgrounds that would allow you to make an informed judgement? I'm just a liberal arts guy and I don't know. Just curious.None of the above (at least from my point of view).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Allow me to explain,<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

A few months ago I was watching a silly documentary called 'walking with man' (or something named like it). It was a documentary along the line of similar shows as 'walking with the dinosaurs'. But this was about the evolution of mankind. On my TV-screen there were approximately 5 hairy creatures (supposedly our ancestors) walking in a sort of waste land. The narrator, explaining to the viewer, said that these people were our ancestors and also said the following; "what made this creature (=man) unique, thus different from all the other creatures on planet earth, was that he was able to influence his environment by 'linking' certain information together and use it to his advantage" . Examples were given; the return of certain birds would sound in a new season; the way certain birds flew (like swallows do) would mean the coming of rain etc. etc. Man could anticipate, survive and thus grow! <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Now this is where my ADD-mind started rumbling and linking. Is it not so that because of a lack of proper filtering people with ADD use metaphors to learn and explain things? Is not so that we link certain information to explain things? <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The following brainstorm blew trough my mind:<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

ADD is a completely natural phenomenon. And Why not? It exists so it has a function. After all, you are born with it and you pass it on to your children (or at least a large percentage chance of passing it on). Thus it is no wonder that a certain percentage (+/- 10%) the population has AD(H)D. Every group of living beings on this planet needs it's protectors to survive in nature. And within every group of beings there is always a certain percentage which is always aware of danger. "uhm guys? Sabre tooth tiger at tree number 4 bush number 6! Let's get into these threes or we will not survive!". Actually this a built in prehistoric instinct. It is the main reason why AD(H)Ders get focus from a shot of adrenaline (fight or flee?), they start feeling good and are ready for survival. But mankind today has withdrawn from his natural habitat. These days the dangers are from a completely different kind. In our modern society the sabre tooth tiger in the woods has made place for dangers of a completely different nature. Here one can think of giving lectures, speeches, job interviews etc. These dangers are not only different, the effect of a specific threat stays longer with us; an upcoming divorce sometimes builds up in a period of many years. Actually you are a hunter living amongst farmers. A hunter who sort of lost his proper use. But you can also be proud! Humanity was able to survive thanks to you. Now I think that it should be our goal to rearrange our priorities. To learn how to make use of what we have been given in a different and useful way. It might not be easy but it is not impossible! <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>Now I know this may seem a tad narcistic but I see 3 groups:<o:p></o:p>

1 Farmers/builders = non-AD(H)Ders<o:p></o:p>
2 Problem solvers/ idea makers = ADDers<o:p></o:p>
3 fighters / protectors = ADHDers<o:p></o:p>

Imagine us living in a nice little village along the water +/- 600 years ago. We have a nice trading community going on. But now and then hordes of Vikings come down the canal to slaughter and steal. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Now, It takes 10 ADDers to think up a wall for protection. It takes a 100 builders to actually build it and a couple of ADHDers to protect is. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

It may sound like there is a hierarchy to all of this. But when you start thinking about it this is not true at all… An ADDer might come up with the idea but he lacks proper concentration to actually make it happen. The other way around the non-AD(H)Der has the concentration but lacks the creativity to link stuff together and come up with a proper solution etc. We need each other or else the Vikings keep coming until none of us is left standing <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

My conclusion? Completely natural!<o:p></o:p>

madd

02-13-06, 02:02 PM

Just a quick note to say thanks for giving me alot to read and think about. I have not run across Russell Barkley's work before. I'd like to give a serious attempt at reading him. And thanks for pointing out the thread on epigenics. Its going to take me a little while to get throught that as well. And nitty gritty wouldn't describe the thought, really, just the nature of the search. And Liberal Arts? In the states it describes a general, non-technical education. Or the soft sciences (Political Science, Sociology, history, geography, etc. .
The unexamined life was a reference to Socrates statement that the unexamined life isn't worth living. The workmanlike plan is highly esteemable for its simplicity, for its getting down to the business of living. If somebody had given me glasses as a youngster I wouldn't have wasted 42 years fumbling through life. Making me doubt its value. Maybe that the difference between me and many or most others with ADD. I have virtually lived a whole life with my chin out, accepting every blow that society gives to those of us who draw outside the lines. I can wear the glasses now, but the damage is already done. And that frankly ****es me off to no end. ADD is not a matter of being differently abled, its a matter of being disabled. Of being minimally brain disfunctioning. If say 8 percent have ADD, and so many percent have that, and so many percent have personality disorder, and so many percent have psychosis, and on and on, pretty soon your gonna have a majority of people, if we don't already, who can't function responsibly. I believe that probably where were at. And this isn't an indictment of the STates. This is Europe, the middle east, Asia, south america as well.
Tetsuo I only managed to glance through your post. And I agree its natural. But so are two-headed caves and cancerous breasts. Thats all I have time for right now. And please don't infer any disrespect from my post. You guys have shown me alot. And I appreciate it.

SB_UK

02-13-06, 02:26 PM

The unexamined life was a reference to Socrates statement that the unexamined life isn't worth living.

Nobody ever changes anyone's mind.
We only ever change our own mind.
But why wouldn't the examined life result in the perspective that you offer?
Why should the examined life result in the sense of worth?

People say ignorance is bliss.
Maybe that might be rephrased as unexamined life is bliss.

Examined life would then probably be the opposite.
And that's where your observations come in.

The glasses that we are given are not rose tinted, they are 'truth' tinted.

Enjoy your reading C. ... hope your journey takes you where you need to be.

:-)

SB.
---

tetsuo76

02-13-06, 03:14 PM

knowing wat one does not want in life is easy.
but not knowing what one does want in life is rather rule than exception.
(life)Experience is needed in order to find out what one really wants.

meadd823

02-19-06, 08:43 PM

how to love with it. But just

Clue one this aint it.....

ADD is not a matter of being differently abled, its a matter of being disabled. Of being minimally brain disfunctioning.

Define life by minimal brain deficiency if that is your preference but you won't be seeing me or my ADD in these ranks...ADD may have been a contributing factor in some bad stuff but continuing to see ADD is being the root cause for my past failures is a receipt for unproductive blaming!!!

I treat my ADD with medications and would like to focus on my strengths so I can learn to work around my obvious weakness,.....all humans have weak areas just that some folks have several in common and medical science has found a way to help us be more "conforming" which I do not mind when applied correctly to specific aspects of my life....but not my attitude!!!!!

I thinks I go by a different book....All differences in functions are termed disordered weather we are talking dopamine or blood glucose...what you do with it and how well one acclimates has more to do with attitude than fact....facts are not life only a small percentage!!!!

Attitude however in a major contributing factor!!!!!

End of interruption the initial posters mind is made up...sorry my minimal brain made me do it!!!!

I mean what exactly is the genetic reason that such large percentage of the population has ADD?

We procreate period !!!!

madd

02-19-06, 11:03 PM

Hi Tammy, you can consider me duly chastised. I don't do well in the attitude dept. I'm trying to do better though. And I don't define my life by my limitations but I do well to remember them and not laugh them off or ignore them or worst of all misidentify them as gifts. Does a prisoner in chains call his chains gifts? No, you work around them. Only, in a competitive world this puts me in a certain disadvantage. A disadvantage that I wasn't even aware of until 6 weeks ago.
I have, to my detriment, usually denied the importance of attitude. The positive attitude promoters have always seemed sad and desparate and in denial to me, at best, and charlatans at worst. But I misjudged. Attitude is important, even neccessary.
As to what the cause or causes are, its somewhat comforting to know that there are capable people looking into that question. Anything I have to say about it is simple conjecture.

meadd823

02-19-06, 11:27 PM

I in no way was trying to chastise so forgive my brutality please,

I simply wanted to say it is far better for me to look to my strengths to assist in over coming my weakness.......

Seeing ADD as nothing more than meaning being disordered/ inferior it is awfully hard to see much good use for the traits it brings in.....

Like it or not I am ADD not much I can seem to do about it but accept it and learn the good that comes along with the bad........

Stabile

02-20-06, 02:28 PM

Hey, colojo:

Welcome to the forums.

We’re an AD/HD couple, with one son (of two) diagnosed. We’ve been pursuing research into human communication for more than thirty-five years now, and some of what we’ve discovered turns out to be directly applicable to AD/HD.

The specific questions we began with in the late Sixties turn out to be related to a specific difference in the way we use our brains. Some of us model knowledge using one organization (or structure) of the various logical elements, and some of us use a different structure.

The same knowledge is modeled, of course, but differences in the form of the two structures occasionally results in subtle differences in how the knowledge is interpreted in use.

By looking carefully at research on neural structures done in the late Sixties and early Seventies, we’ve been able to relate the logical definition of structure in how knowledge is organized to the way the logical elements are stored in neural structures.

These plausible (as yet unproven) models of high-level neural function are easily extended to every known function of the brain. The gestalt model of neural function nicely explains such diverse phenomena as language, social interaction, the role of low-level instinctive drivers, and the experience of conscious being.

No comprehensive study of human communication can avoid considering how modern language evolved, and our theoretical models of the process that gave rise to H. sapiens is right in line with mainstream thought in this area.

Our models are dynamic in the sense that we see the evolutionary process as continuous, with the apparent sudden appearance of attributes that might differentiate species nicely explained by the mechanisms described in emergent systems theory.

So in our models, communication continued to evolve beyond the initial emergent event that gave rise to the use of modern language. By looking at the details of the two types of logical structures currently in use, we can more or less pinpoint two more emergent events that are expected to arise, and which should be obvious in the historical record.

There’s a specific, simple difference at the heart of the two logical structures we’ve identified: the more recently evolved one makes use of a logical property known as the metarelationship.

The two marker events we look for in the historical record are the first evidence of the application of metarelationships as an isolated logical tool, and the emergence of the general application of metarelationships in everyday life.

The obvious candidate for the first marker is the invention of written language, five to ten thousand years ago. The second is of course related directly to the communication anomalies that led us to identify the two different logical structures in the first place. But identifying the source of the anomalies only shifted the mystery to the structures themselves.

As evidence of the evolving use of metarelationships to model logical entities, we can place the phenomena of the two different structures in a much grander context.

The relatively recent rise of the general use of metarelationships in constructing logical models in the brain can explain much more than just our original goal, certain types of miscommunication. The interaction of the subtle differences that now appear at all levels (including in how we evidence instinctive behaviors once thought to be hard-wired) with the socio-cultural context which the models help define can create exceedingly complex patterns in our ordinary experience of being.

Some of those patterns appear identical to the many (sometimes contradictory) effects of AD/HD. The expected impact on the social group of the sudden general rise of the use of the newer type of logical models is approximately what we see today, the reason these forums exist.

The question of genetics is a complex one, one we expect likely to fall sooner or later. Our models derived some surprising mechanisms that were largely unexpected; these appear to exist unrecognized in the social group in pretty much the form predicted.

Some of these mechanisms have a significant effect on how attributes related to the use of the newer structure are passed from one generation to another, so the picture of AD/HD as a heritable trait is clouded a bit. Epigenetics may play a more or less significant role, too, as discussed in the thread SB pointed you to.

An interesting and still unanswered question is the Big Why. The use of logical entities incorporating metarelationships is a relatively simple trick, but its evolution must have a story nonetheless.

The common picture of selection is somewhat oversimplified, mistakenly personifying the process in a way that obscures any intuition of its real nature. For example, the ability to excel at particular moments such as organizing a hunt is a relatively weak influence compared to the 24/7 influence of whatever factors contribute to the improved ability.

The directly obvious utility of having food on the table is seductive, but most real selection takes place out of reach of the individual’s ability to consciously apply a trait. Only by appreciating the blind subtlety of the process can one develop an intuition of the finer points, like Darwin’s understanding of co-selection. The advantageous utility of the newer logical structure is appropriately simple and unobvious: it can successfully represent logical objects that are impossible to represent unambiguously with the older structure.

It can delineate finer structure as well, probably also an advantage that selects. But the ability to pierce the veil of ambiguity is the property most likely to contribute to an emergent event, which in our estimation is exactly the case with AD/HD.

A better knowledge representation is only going to be attractive if it allows you to represent something in a way that solves a previously intractable problem, and so our speculation currently involves certain features of the way our most basic social interactions are defined, specifically differentiation of the two female versions of the human mating strategy.

We won’t go too far into that right now; thirty-five plus years of effort is bound to produce some pretty complex detail, more than we could possibly begin to even list. H. sapiens is a complex critter, as you‘ve noticed, and just describing how communication proceeds via the oral-aural channel is beyond this simple scope.

The connection to AD/HD blossoms far beyond that, and so no matter what we present, we know we’re leaving you largely in the dark about what concerns you directly. Genetics and the appearance of heritability are some of the more complex pieces, too, so you picked a good focus of interest if you don’t want to get bored too soon.

Here’s something we’re currently kicking about a bit: in XX and XY the obvious common factor is X. If the propensity for developing AD/HD is something that is selecting in females, we males might not have anything to say about it. Females have their own private club. Males don’t, and men might wind up reaping the benefits and drawbacks despite anything they can do.

Of course, that’s much too simplified a view, but we believe it’s correctly suggestive of what may actually be happening. It certainly fits with the gender differentiation of the communications artifacts we originally set out to study; females are far more likely than males to be using the newer logical structure when anomalies arise, and as a result the problem appears on the surface to be directly gender related.

Feel free to ask questions. Much of what we’ve included here has been described in more detail in various threads scattered about the forums, but some of the older discussions may have been archived.

Have fun.

–Tom and Kay

lettie

02-20-06, 07:20 PM

I don't define my life by my limitations but I do well to remember them and not laugh them off or ignore them or worst of all misidentify them as gifts. Does a prisoner in chains call his chains gifts.

He might.... if being chained, for example, keeps him from falling out of a window someday.... or if the prisoners only other alternative was the death penalty

Utter Nutter

02-20-06, 07:29 PM

Or if you live on the kinky side of life....

lol

Sorry, sick sense of humour....and I laugh at my own jokes. (blush)

KirkT

02-21-06, 12:23 PM

Hey Stabile....we're ADHD here....we can't be expected to read though all that!

;)

This is interesting to see what this has boiled down to: how does one see their ADHD? An "extra"ability or a "dis"ability. This is one of a few genetic alterations that can allow both problems and opportunities.

I certinatly wouldn't be one to think that just because this is dealing with genetics that it is to be considered evolution. Evolution, after all, is dealing with natural selection and if the world considered us to be soooo anoying that they wanted nothing to do with us, our numbers would dwindle and we'd die out (therefore, not evolved) On the other hand, we are so increadably sexually active (see other posts) we'd multiply like rabbits and ADHD would become the norm (evolved).

Is it possible to say that something is evolving? Doesn't evolution only deal with the past? Did people think the do-do bird was evolving?

Tounge-in-cheek, but still.......:faint: :soapbox:

Stabile

02-21-06, 02:52 PM

Hey, KirkT:

We've occasionally had that criticism before. Of course, some of y'all still read books, even some who’ve complained, and that post is no book. (grins...)

* * * * *

We consider AD/HD to be evidence of an ongoing speciation event, probably what you mean by evolution. We don’t come to that conclusion by looking at how our ADDer traits are advantageous; the indicator of a speciation event is its form, as an emergent property of a particular type of system.

There still must be an advantage, of course, but even that isn’t the kind of individual talent usually cited. Stuff that selects is different, working on a different level (see below). In AD/HD it’s a complex measure of how well neural structures represent information, and the fundamental trait at work is a propensity to arrange neurons in a new, slightly more complex way.

There still needs to be a reason for that to select, and though there are many candidates, our current favorite is that we can sort out what’s happening inside our heads in a way not previously possible. This turns out to be most advantageous to females; when we look back, hindsight may reveal that what drove the speciation event was the desire to unmask and control primitive mating behaviors.

The side effects are all over the map, pretty much what are commonly mentioned in terms of individual talents, as well as the list of typical symptoms and drawbacks.

* * * * *

Standard evolution, i.e., normal selection, excluding speciation events (which are a special circumstance):

Reading between the lines in your post, your take on selection probably isn’t exactly what goes on. It does seem to mirror the popular misconception, though; we’ve found the sense you’re displaying in those few short statements being taught in college level courses.

The first jumping off place for an accurate intuition of selection is an appreciation of the purely statistical nature of the mechanism. Then mix in a constant awareness of what the bottom line is: getting your genetic material into play in the next generation with the best possible chance of repeating the trick.

Anything that has an effect on that process is a candidate for selection, but watch what you pick. For example, the genuine propensity to remain true to the family unit for extended periods of time is a huge influence, as are many other traits that help offspring to become successful social animals, able to function competently in a social context on a more-or-less constant basis.

Being able to be cute at a party for an hour a week isn’t even a blip. By comparison, making your mate feel happy and secure 24/7 by your attitude is a much more important trait, particularly if whatever behavior communicates that sense serves as a role model, absorbed by the young’uns to pass on in turn when they begin to play the game.

Once the basics of blind statistics and the nature of the playing field are embedded, you’re on your way. Things like the way the shape of a woman’s face might correlate with the shape of her fallopian tubes will begin to make sense. That’s co-selection, first described by Darwin, and it’s not usually well understood.

The common examples are stuff like the shape of the hips being indicative of related anatomy, with the idea being certain shapes ease childbirth. While that might be true, it’s trivial compared to most other significant traits, many of which have no physical manifestation at all, like the one we just mentioned.

So what we do for fun isn’t likely to have much of an effect on the process, unless we happen to put ourselves out of play in doing it. That would reflect something akin to a general propensity for foolhardy risk-taking, a personality trait not easy to pinpoint, but certainly something that is in effect all the time.

One might expect that to select (actually, to select out of the mix), because the statistics are obviously going to work out in a way that over time fewer related genes make it to the next round.

Unless there’s nothing dangerous to fall prey to, and then what happens? The trait stays around, because although the statistical likelihood of coming to a premature end is higher, there’s nothing to take advantage of the stats.

Saying it that way is all wrong, of course; the stats don’t exist if there are no accidents, danger isn’t an aware force able to recognize opportunity and pounce on it, and so on.

But you get the point; thinking about selection properly requires a sense of statistics as a kind of ‘magic filter’ that only operates on the Big Picture. Individuals and individual actions don’t mean doodley squat, and neither do our ideas of meaning and significance.

Their collective influence on the Big Picture matters, though, and that‘s where you need to look if you want to think about what might be selecting right now.

It’s not exactly simple, but there is a kind of cold logical sense to it.

madd

02-21-06, 11:25 PM

I got to be honest with you Tom and Kay, you guys are talking way over my head. I've taken the last 24 hours to try and master the information from you original post on this thread. I'm picking up about half of what you guys are putting down. But, this I get, "We consider AD/HD to be evidence of an ongoing speciation event, probably what you mean by evolution". Thats kinda the way I've been looking at the situation. And at the level that I'm understanding what you're saying, I'm diggin it.

And your sumation, "But you get the point; thinking about selection properly requires a sense of statistics as a kind of ‘magic filter’ that only operates on the Big Picture. Individuals and individual actions don’t mean doodley squat, and neither do our ideas of meaning and significance.

Their collective influence on the Big Picture matters, though, and that‘s where you need to look if you want to think about what might be selecting right now.

It’s not exactly simple, but there is a kind of cold logical sense to it." Well thats what I'm talking about. Only I see it only vaquely. I don't have the background to really understand your work. I'm seeing elements of Anthropology, Biology, Psychology, Statistics, History, Linquistics, Philosophy and much more in your work. Your blowing me away, but I'm loving every minute of it. I'm gonna keep reaing you stuff and see if I can master it any further. But it'll take a little time, cause I got ADD.:D

dragon32078

02-22-06, 12:15 AM

I very much agree that a key component in living with a fulfilled life while having ADD is having the right attitude. However, there seems to be many phases that a person has to go through in order to have the right attitude.

From what I have read much of society, including myself, sees ADD as an excuse to not be responsible for their actions. Let me clarify first that I do have ADD. My problem is that I don't know what that means. I am getting a better idea of what to do about it daily, but that is thanks largely to people such as yourselves, who support those of us who have ADD.

Unfortunately, it seems that there are two kinds of people. Those who see a problem in another person, and therefore make fun of that person for that problem. The other person will support you, and try to make it easier on you, by understanding this problem, and by offering empathy.

So in that regard having ADD is both a blessing and a curse, just like any other attribute of a person. Yes, it would be nice if society was more sympathetic with this problem, but I can not control society's thoughts, and I am guessing that no other single person can either. The only person I can possibly control is myself.

So my advice to everyone is try to understand ADD, look at the unique attributes it has granted upon you, and then see how you can take advantage of them.

I know that I am easily distracted. This sounds like a bad thing right? Well, what if my distractability causes me to see the frown forming on my girlfriend's face? Because of this unique insight I am able to react, and hopefully prevent her frown from becoming bigger.

Also, people with ADD seem to be able to abstract more concepts. We can see connections, between things that other people might not otherwise see. That attribute is extremely useful in any management position, because you will have an easier time grasping the big picture, I was just able to paraphrase what Tetsuya said earlier. See how I was able to connect two things that may have otherwise seemed unconnected at least at first.

I hope this post proves useful, and sorry for its large length.

-Kevin

KirkT

02-22-06, 08:09 AM

Stabile,

Although my post was extremely simplistic and, therefore, open to misinterpretation, I believe that you and I are in agreement: environment and genetics are to be taken into consideration when discussing evolution. Finer points can be argued by others elsewhere.

As you say, most people misinterpret the definition of evolution as you understand it, most likely because people are not in a situation that would require the advanced understanding of the word.

So, we take the question that was asked down to its basic point and as I assume it was meant to be asked: is ADHD an evolutionary step, insomuch that it will be used in the advancement of humans, sort of like walking, talking, seeing or even conceptual thinking.

Are all changes from one generation to the next considered evolution? If so, can “bad” changes be considered evolution? If it’s agreed that not all changes are considered good then therefore evolution is selective. Is it understood that that selection process is, what we would commonly know as, Natural Selection? Now, to the question: is there evidence that natural selection has created and/or progressed ADHD and/or is there evidence that this natural selection will continue to favor ADHD in the future?

Of course we all understand that any answer is purely speculative, and all in good fun.

meadd823

02-22-06, 11:07 PM

Or if you live on the kinky side of life.... and I laugh at my own jokes

Hey I laughed too….it was pretty funny.

Hey Stabile....we're ADHD here....we can't be expected to read though all that!

The wonderful thing about a message board is it doesn’t take place in “real time” so you do not have to read it all in one setting.

I usually have more than one browser open (well okay six or seven) but when threads or post get too long I can read a while when I begin to get bogged down, I pop over to one of the word games in chit-chat and then come back to the longer more confusing post. Read awhile get up move around ect……

Stabile doesn’t mind it isn’t like Tom and Kay have to wait for us to get done reading their post before they can go on about their lives….. I will admit I have had to look up the many things they refer to in their post like “emergent event” to more fully understand. .

Some of the threads Stabile have participated gotten so involved I would have to keep one browser on encyclopedia (with a dictionary option) I have Encarta with my server program…..Wikipedia is also good

I have learned a great deal this way. Not only about the subject Tom and Kay speak of but the disciplines they used to derive their ideas……it depends on the learning incentive of the reader……

I'm seeing elements of Anthropology, Biology, Psychology, Statistics, History, Linguistics, Philosophy and much more in your work. Your blowing me away, but I'm loving every minute of it. I'm gonna keep reading you stuff and see if I can master it any further. But it'll take a little time, cause I got ADD

Please do not feel slow some have been reading their post longer than you have and have still failed to recognize this….fact!!!!

This is interesting to see what this has boiled down to: how does one see their ADHD? An "extra” ability or a "dis"ability. This is one of a few genetic alterations that can allow both problems and opportunities.

I think this answered nicely…..

So in that regard having ADD is both a blessing and a curse, just like any other attribute of a person. Yes, it would be nice if society was more sympathetic with this problem, but I can not control society's thoughts, and I am guessing that no other single person can either. The only person I can possibly control is myself.

Two things in that have effected my ability to live with ADD in a manner that I am reasonably satisfied with me..

#1 As my signature indicates is ATTITUDE!!!!

Yep and perspective drives the ship upon which attitude travels…

#2 Finding success including but not limited to financial is dependant on how you “use” your ADD symptoms.

So my advice to everyone is try to understand ADD, look at the unique attributes it has granted upon you, and then see how you can take advantage of them.

Agreed and here is my example if this…

My ADD comes complete with an “H-factor- I am hyperactive impulsive. I can’t sit still, shutting up for long periods of time can be problematic…

I once tried customer service on the phone in front of a computer…can any one spell disaster?

I went back into nursing. Now who in their right mind would hire a nurse to sit around and be quite all day? My need for movement is fulfilled in direct patient care employers love hard working nurse’s who talk to their patients….their is a time to shut up and listen to what a patient has to say but again the intuitive qualities of my ADD is able to assist in determining when this needs to happen. When I do hush and listen it isn’t a fake forceful making myself shut up it is out of genuineness concern for wanting to hear so I can help!!!!!

I am getting a better idea of what to do about it daily, but that is thanks largely to people such as yourselves, who support those of us who have ADD.

Stabile hope you guys don’t mind this but I know this has been revealed in open post before

Tom and Kay (Stabile) also have ADD….with the exception of a few who most people here are ADD them selves. The ones who come here and do not have ADD are the spouses and partners of those who do. They do venture in “our” area at times but most tend to keep in the non-ADD section.

ADHD an evolutionary step, insomuch that it will be used in the advancement of humans, sort of like walking, talking, seeing or even conceptual thinking.

It can delineate finer structure as well, probably also an advantage that selects. But the ability to pierce the veil of ambiguity is the property most likely to contribute to an emergent event, which in our estimation is exactly the case with AD/HD.

Tom and Kay….
In the epigenetic thread I posted this as a source about emergent even however I went back and reviewed to see if you corrected this presentation. I failed to see one (I believe we all became distracted) so I will represent it here also but feel free to correct me if this is presumptuous….

This helped me understand more concisely what is being said by emergent even as opposed to evolution……

emergent event explaination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence)

KirkT

02-23-06, 05:11 AM

Thank you for giving my "evolutionary step" comment a name: emergence.

So, is it to be understood that, speaking logically, that all emergence is an evolutionary step but not all evolutionary steps are emergence?

meadd823

02-25-06, 08:01 AM

that all emergence is an evolutionary step but not all evolutionary steps are emergence?

correct

quoted from the above hyperlink I provided in my last post
quote***
"Thus, a straightforward phenomenon such as the probability of finding a raisin in a slice of cake growing with the portion-size does not generally require a theory of emergence to explain. It may, however, be profitable to consider the "emergence" of the texture of the cake as a relatively complex result of the baking process and the mixture of ingredients."
End Quote***

.....emphasis mine!!!

another example is

Source quote*****
"such as the interactions between a great number of neurons producing a human brain capable of thought (even though the constituent neurons are not individually capable of thought)."
End Quote*******

Different neurons, which in them selves can not produce thought, put a bunch of these neurons together, add some neurotransmitters (which isn't capable of thought either) and a bit of stimuli,

In other words, neurons, the chemicals in the brain, and the nerves from different sensory organs, ......different things in the same environment. None of these things are capable of thinking a single thought in and of itself, heck even collectively they aren't, stimuli must be introduced to begin the process which causes awareness, waaaa laaaaa the emergence of thought!!!!

Cross application to group(s) of people and an idea should begin to emerge right about..................... .....now!!!!! :D (sorry about the pun)

Please remember I am explaining a portion of some one else's post (idea) based upon reading it myself, and I could still be off a tad.........This is Stabile's (he has comminucated the original thought=final say about his own meanings) and it isn't the entire picture (this is based upon reading his other post else where) either only a portion.....

I do hope I have helped......

Katherinemm31

02-25-06, 08:21 AM

meadd823

02-26-06, 08:19 PM

and yes, I expect to get some "heat" from it

Heat no, disagreement perhaps. I do not feel the need to be rude about it. I do like your attitude. Especially the below statement!!!

I, for one, have no intention of being "edited" out of the gene pool. : )

I do not believe you have any worries there, you like me come from a family where ADD is more of the “norm” than non-ADD, according to your post.

Now for the part I disagree with, as we ADDers dislike to much bush beating

ADHD'ers are genetically natural movers, and as such, we are the ones who help put the power behind agricultural, technological, and social change.

I agree with this part however I happen to believe society is becoming more ADD not less.....

Here are some examples

Direct deposit/ auto bill pay (okay all I have to do is remember to go to work----=-)

Online banking and transaction records/debit cards accepted almost every where except BFE (I made a purchase at the store the other day it took me 15 minutes from purchase to computer in living room the amount of my purchase was already deducted from my checking account----I need to balance my check book why??? check book hey has any one seen it!) I can transfer money from my savings to my checking 27/7 on impulse so to speak!!

e-bay (impulsive dream or night mare depending)

Over night delivery (okay when I was a kid delivers took 4-6 weeks at least-ADD problems with delayed gratification or package waiting)

The five things you can do on a computer (while I was writing this response I was also burning a C.D. from an on line music store, and instant messaging a child of mine)

Oh yea on line stores---( Most major chains have on-line stores where I can buy what ever I want from my chair and have it over nighted to my front door-stores can be so distracting I am always forgetting where they are)

One stop shopping (for when I do decide to shop in person--virtual milk the next ADD idea perhaps ;)--I can pick up my blank C.D.'s along with my milk and eggs. Need new shoes well no need to drive else where the super center has those too---multi tasking places like us multi-tasking ADDers)

The cell phone that does every thing including but limited to whistling Dixie (cell phones are also multi-taskers....they take pics, receive messages, e-mails, caller ID, multi calls..... ADDers tend to forget cameras for special events, to check mail and most phone numbers---why worry with that now)

Tagless garments (I have no doubt an ADDer can up with this idea one of my personal faves)

Tech support and customer service 24/7----for those insomniac ADDers who are inserting new gadgets into PC at 3:00am)

Flex- hours/ Job sharing/ cross training/ in company day care/ on line learning or train at your own pace----all having a scent of ADD I think

The world is becoming hurried, multi-tasking, going almost the speed of my hyper-activity

I could go on but I think that my point is apparent

But there is a down side to this advantage: we aren't exactly "productive" or "constructive" according to typical standards.

Oh yea I am I can do all sorts of stuff while never leaving my easy chair in front of my computer.....to stay in shape and prevent my car from sitting to long I combine three activates into the thing I call a job-physical exercise-car running- money making--another ADD multi-task!!!!

There are down sides to every thing. A care taker can just as easily become a control freak, and easy going person can also become overly submissive, a good speaker may tend to interrupt conversations or dominate them.

I am hyper active and have few if any inattentive traits to my ADD so I will admit I perceive the world probably much different from some one who has the inattentive flavor!!!!

I still believe what I wrote in my signature-----it is all in the attitude!!!! :D