I'm fairly certain I have SCT.

I completely understand the above posters talking about "not getting something right away". I have felt like a complete idiot at times.

I think I have a math deficiency too. As a teen I took the ACT test instead of the SATs- ACTs have sections on science, math, social studies, etc. I scored in the 90+% range on everything except math, which I scored in the 70s.

As far as treatments, I think stims make me worse, at least for concentrating on work stuff, which is computer programming. I was given desipramine in college and my calculus class grades went from Fs to As.

Unfortunately, I cannot really tolerate desipramine - it makes me anxious and depressed. Nasty drug really.

So I keep waiting for something to come along that will work.

I'm fairly certain I have SCT.
As far as treatments, I think stims make me worse, at least for concentrating on work stuff, which is computer programming. I was given desipramine in college and my calculus class grades went from Fs to As.


It's still surprising me how different people react on medications. Stims make me a lot better, even in creativity of which I have heard many others say that medication suppresses it. It is as if I can now keep following thoughts and ideas long enough to actually start doing things; while without meds it would generally remain stuck in the "gee, that's a cool idea" phase.
Disadvantage of medication is that it makes me even more sensitive to things like traffic noise. But that's doable.

I've just thought of something interesting .............For example, I was learning how to paraglide.

Hey. The above, coupled with what you said about delayed learning when skiing, made me think of what i experience in high-adrenaline situations.
When parachuting or bungeejumping, i remember how people would be hollering and screaming while doing it, and i thought "pi** off, there no chance you can get that kind of reaction out of it". I would get back on gound kind of shrugging my shoulders thinking that it was a cool experience, and that was it. But my "kick" or rush came hours later. I don't know if anyone else can relate, it's just one of those things that i have always thought of as strange.....

I just have two questions: how do you guys get **** done with your disorder? Do you have trouble following and participating in a conversation?

I just have two questions:
ah :)

how do you guys get **** done with your disorder?

Now I have two questions ..
- with guys, do you mean men only? Just asking b/c I'm not a native speaker; and sometimes it is used in a general sense - like people; but at other times it seems to mean men.
- what does "****" mean?

or wait, it's three questions. (no Monty Python reference intended)
- what does to get done with (...) mean? Or, for that matter, to get **** done with (...)?

Do you have trouble following and participating in a conversation?

Yes. It gets harder the:
- more people are involved;
- more background noise there is;
- more analysis-at-the-same-time is required (as when being explained something);
- more annoying group dynamics (i.e. hidden agenda's, machismo) is displayed;
- more distraction there is;
- more boring the subject is (economics, sports, cars, TV, celebrities, to name a few;
- slower the other person(s) speaks;
- more formal the gathering is;
- less I can move about.

So it's very easy to talk to one other person about something personal when walking in a forest; but it is extremely hard following a conversation between a jock, a bodybuilder, a fundamentalist and a drama queen who are trying to explain the gory details of bookkeeping to one another sitting in a busy bar :)
Actually, I think that last one cannot be done at all.

Sorry, this sounds quite silly, but I am serious. Those things really do make it very hard.

I stumbled across a facebook group that discusses SCT. I haven't really looked through it yet, but I figured the more resources available and the better shared and networked the pockets of info are, the more we can all learn.



Additionally, has anyone tried provigil (modafinil) for SCTish symptoms? What were your results?

I've read that provigil's mechanism of action may be the electro-tonic binding of groups of neurons together. This might decrease the neuronal noise due to the larger ion flows required to create an action potential (since the ions are shared among several neurons, requiring more to reach that critical level). It also potentially increases the synchronicity of neuron populations, also boosting the signal to noise ratio. I've also read that this type of action could lead to better EEG patterns, assumingly because the neurons are operating in a more coordinated and efficient manner and not going off and doing their own thing.

This is a combination of internet research on provigil, neuron related reseach, and my own speculation, so don't take it as gospel. There are some other factors that play in and help support this basic idea, but I can't remember it all off the top of my head and don't have time to re-look it up. But thoughts, both pro and con are welcome.

My experiences with traditional stimulants and straterra/wellbutrin seem to conform somewhat with this theory. That is, taking stimulants, etc. seems to improve some symptoms by giving energy, waking me up, and speeding me up. But my thoughts are not as 'elegant' as I would hope normal to be. My working memory is still horrible and my thoughts fleeting and sometimes disjointed. My theory is that normal stimulants are increasing the firing rate, but not addressing the coordination by improving synchonicity, thus the encoding/modeling complexity that can be achieved by the smaller neuron populations has not really improved. And the signal/noise ratio is still low because the noise is likely as amplified as the signal since the stimulants are likely just lowering the effort required to reach an action potential.

I'm also curious if anyone has investigated hypo-thyroidism or sub-clinical hypo-thyroidism. Why some criteria seem very fitting, there are a few that don't. But that's probably to be expected for any such list.
(http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=27435816358)

that's interesting!

I don't know what Provigil is though, have to look that up ...


I'm also curious if anyone has investigated hypo-thyroidism or sub-clinical hypo-thyroidism. Why some criteria seem very fitting, there are a few that don't. But that's probably to be expected for any such list.


I'm also hypo-thyroid. That was diagnosed two years before ADD was - and to be honest, even though my then GP told me that I would start feeling a lot better if that was taken care of: nothing much happened when that was corrected after a few increases and blood tests.
I still felt as distracted, had the same working memory problems and whatnot as ever before.

that's interesting!

I don't know what Provigil is though, have to look that up ...



I'm also hypo-thyroid. That was diagnosed two years before ADD was - and to be honest, even though my then GP told me that I would start feeling a lot better if that was taken care of: nothing much happened when that was corrected after a few increases and blood tests.
I still felt as distracted, had the same working memory problems and whatnot as ever before.



One of my thyroids is slightly below normal, but the other two are normal. The doctors said I was fine... so you think this would make a difference?

One of my thyroids is slightly below normal, but the other two are normal. The doctors said I was fine... so you think this would make a difference?

My then manager at UBC family practice, who also was a physician, drew me a diagram to explain how the mechanism worked and that it was a bit more complex than it seemed - that there was some sort of feedback loop involved. So maybe that is what your doc was referring to: that though one hormone was below normal, the other part of the loop apparently could correct for that .. not certain though.

Hmm maybe there is some good info somewhere to Google ...
Ah, I found something :) I'll copy it below. It turns out to work like this:

the thyroid gland produces two hormones, T3 and T4 which have a similar goal: to set your level of metabolism. You can compare this to the "central heating", and T3 and T4 being the throttles or valves or whatever thing a heater has to control it.

Now, this central heating control has a feedback control: that's the pituitary gland. It senses what the control settings (T3 and T4 blood levels) are like, and can regulate the thyroid gland to produce more or less T3 and T4 by way of sending it more or less TSH - Thyroid Stimulating Hormone.
This assures that the heating runs at an even level.

But the actual temperature in the house - the body metabolism - is controlled by what value this pituitary feedback control is set to. That's done by the hypothalamus - the thermostat of the body, so to speak. If that drops too low, the hypothalamus senses that and sends the pituitary a message to shovel some coal in the engine by way of releasing TRH - TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) in the bloodstream.


So I suppose what you doc meant was that either your T3 or T4 was a bit too low, but apparently that was countered enough by the other one.

(I'm aware that my analogy is a bit different than the one below - I would think that the hypothalamus acts like the thermostat rather than the pituitary; that the thyroid is more like the heater throttle, the pituitary like the throttle control and the hypothalamus like the thermostat. But that does not make much difference for the whole idea)

==== source (http://www.endocrineweb.com/thyfunction.html) ====================

The function of the thyroid gland is to take iodine, found in many foods, and convert it into thyroid hormones: thyroxine (T4) and triiodothyronine (T3). Thyroid cells are the only cells in the body which can absorb iodine. These cells combine iodine and the amino acid tyrosine to make T3 and T4. T3 and T4 are then released into the blood stream and are transported throughout the body where they control metabolism (conversion of oxygen and calories to energy). Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. The normal thyroid gland produces about 80% T4 and about 20% T3, however, T3 possesses about four times the hormone "strength" as T4.
http://img.skitch.com/20091218-bep424n65wdkdu6ax8pd29ik3a.jpg

The thyroid gland is under the control of the pituitary gland, a small gland the size of a peanut at the base of the brain (shown here in orange). When the level of thyroid hormones (T3 & T4) drops too low, the pituitary gland produces Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which stimulates the thyroid gland to produce more hormones. Under the influence of TSH, the thyroid will manufacture and secrete T3 and T4 thereby raising their blood levels. The pituitary senses this and responds by decreasing its TSH production. One can imagine the thyroid gland as a furnace and the pituitary gland as the thermostat. Thyroid hormones are like heat. When the heat gets back to the thermostat, it turns the thermostat off. As the room cools (the thyroid hormone levels drop), the thermostat turns back on (TSH increases) and the furnace produces more heat (thyroid hormones).
http://img.skitch.com/20091218-ptifskxmw8rcirk7yg9wkt9ia8.jpg

The pituitary gland itself is regulated by another gland, known as the hypothalamus (shown in our picture in light blue). The hypothalamus is part of the brain and produces TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) which tells the pituitary gland to stimulate the thyroid gland (release TSH). One might imagine the hypothalamus as the person who regulates the thermostat since it tells the pituitary gland at what level the thyroid should be set.

I actually have tried provigil with quite positive results. I took it in combination with Adderall, I only ceased its use after I thought I was having an allergic reaction to it which in turn was not in fact the case.

In terms of positive results:

*Significantly reduced the overall agitation/mood dampening effect amphetamine has.
*On its own was just like a cup of coffee without the racing thoughts and overall ill sensations coffee can result in.
*A noticeable brightening effect on mood.
*Felt as though it had a cumulative effect on overall cognitive ability.
*Little to no negative side effects.

D3xter, thanks for sharing your hypothesis with regard to Modafinil's mechanism of action in SCT individuals. I would love to read up more or simply discuss. If you can provide any additional links to reading material that'd be stellar !

@Luthien: there have been anecdotal reports that n-acetyl l-tyrosine supplements are helpful to a subset of ADD patients. I have yet to try it myself. Iodine supplementation is supposed to be useful in general.

My then manager at UBC family practice, who also was a physician, drew me a diagram to explain how the mechanism worked and that it was a bit more complex than it seemed - that there was some sort of feedback loop involved. So maybe that is what your doc was referring to: that though one hormone was below normal, the other part of the loop apparently could correct for that .. not certain though.

Hmm maybe there is some good info somewhere to Google ...
Ah, I found something :) I'll copy it below. It turns out to work like this:

the thyroid gland produces two hormones, T3 and T4 which have a similar goal: to set your level of metabolism. You can compare this to the "central heating", and T3 and T4 being the throttles or valves or whatever thing a heater has to control it.

Now, this central heating control has a feedback control: that's the pituitary gland. It senses what the control settings (T3 and T4 blood levels) are like, and can regulate the thyroid gland to produce more or less T3 and T4 by way of sending it more or less TSH - Thyroid Stimulating Hormone.
This assures that the heating runs at an even level.

But the actual temperature in the house - the body metabolism - is controlled by what value this pituitary feedback control is set to. That's done by the hypothalamus - the thermostat of the body, so to speak. If that drops too low, the hypothalamus senses that and sends the pituitary a message to shovel some coal in the engine by way of releasing TRH - TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) in the bloodstream.


So I suppose what you doc meant was that either your T3 or T4 was a bit too low, but apparently that was countered enough by the other one.

(I'm aware that my analogy is a bit different than the one below - I would think that the hypothalamus acts like the thermostat rather than the pituitary; that the thyroid is more like the heater throttle, the pituitary like the throttle control and the hypothalamus like the thermostat. But that does not make much difference for the whole idea)

==== source (http://www.endocrineweb.com/thyfunction.html) ====================

The function of the thyroid gland is to take iodine, found in many foods, and convert it into thyroid hormones: thyroxine (T4) and triiodothyronine (T3). Thyroid cells are the only cells in the body which can absorb iodine. These cells combine iodine and the amino acid tyrosine to make T3 and T4. T3 and T4 are then released into the blood stream and are transported throughout the body where they control metabolism (conversion of oxygen and calories to energy). Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. The normal thyroid gland produces about 80% T4 and about 20% T3, however, T3 possesses about four times the hormone "strength" as T4.
http://img.skitch.com/20091218-bep424n65wdkdu6ax8pd29ik3a.jpg

The thyroid gland is under the control of the pituitary gland, a small gland the size of a peanut at the base of the brain (shown here in orange). When the level of thyroid hormones (T3 & T4) drops too low, the pituitary gland produces Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH) which stimulates the thyroid gland to produce more hormones. Under the influence of TSH, the thyroid will manufacture and secrete T3 and T4 thereby raising their blood levels. The pituitary senses this and responds by decreasing its TSH production. One can imagine the thyroid gland as a furnace and the pituitary gland as the thermostat. Thyroid hormones are like heat. When the heat gets back to the thermostat, it turns the thermostat off. As the room cools (the thyroid hormone levels drop), the thermostat turns back on (TSH increases) and the furnace produces more heat (thyroid hormones).
http://img.skitch.com/20091218-ptifskxmw8rcirk7yg9wkt9ia8.jpg

The pituitary gland itself is regulated by another gland, known as the hypothalamus (shown in our picture in light blue). The hypothalamus is part of the brain and produces TSH Releasing Hormone (TRH) which tells the pituitary gland to stimulate the thyroid gland (release TSH). One might imagine the hypothalamus as the person who regulates the thermostat since it tells the pituitary gland at what level the thyroid should be set.



Are you confusing me with someone else? This is the first time I posted in this thread lol... I'm trying to understand, if the thyroid level is slightly below normal, could it still cause problems that cannot be seen from a simple blood test?

I just found out about SCT and know this is what I have suffered from all my life. I thought it was chronic fatigue syndrome because I had Epstein Barr at 15 and this is when I can remember the fatigue and lack of motivation starting. But this is also when school work got harder and I couldn't just get by. I never read a book in high school or studied for a test in my life. I couldn't even hold my head up in class. Always had my head down. Would go to the library and sleep every chance I got. I am 49 now and have been trying to find out what is wrong with my for 12 years. I was told by drs. "You have children you're tired from that". I would always ask friends "Are you really tired" , no one ever said yes. 4 years ago we met a couple and they joined my family and I on vacation in NH. I lay in a cot next to them and my husband play cards and games for a week. The husband said to my husband "Something is not right with your wife" and my husband said she always like that. That's when I finally realized what I felt in my heart since I was 15 that I wasn't like everyone else. I always felt why don't I fit in. I look like all the popular girls, I have the same stuff as them, but why do they raise their hands in class, why do they give I damn, cause I couldn't even stay awake to listen to the teacher.
Well as time went on my husband was getting madder and madder at how sloppy our house was, and that I didn't do dishes, or like to cook, or put laundry away. I just went on the computer and read all day and night.
With the description of SCT I find that this is all we feel like doing because of no motivation. I can't even make myself walk my dog around the block.
I take adderal xr 20 mg. but this barely helps. What are we to do in order to live productive lives. I am such a horrible role model for my kids. I don't feel like doing anything ever. It's so awful and nobody understands. I sure hope there's reincarnation and I get a second go around because I've missed a whole lot of living.

I just found out about SCT and know this is what I have suffered from all my life. I thought it was chronic fatigue syndrome because I had Epstein Barr at 15 and this is when I can remember the fatigue and lack of motivation starting. But this is also when school work got harder and I couldn't just get by. I never read a book in high school or studied for a test in my life. I couldn't even hold my head up in class. Always had my head down. Would go to the library and sleep every chance I got. I am 49 now and have been trying to find out what is wrong with my for 12 years. I was told by drs. "You have children you're tired from that". I would always ask friends "Are you really tired" , no one ever said yes. 4 years ago we met a couple and they joined my family and I on vacation in NH. I lay in a cot next to them and my husband play cards and games for a week. The husband said to my husband "Something is not right with your wife" and my husband said she always like that. That's when I finally realized what I felt in my heart since I was 15 that I wasn't like everyone else. I always felt why don't I fit in. I look like all the popular girls, I have the same stuff as them, but why do they raise their hands in class, why do they give I damn, cause I couldn't even stay awake to listen to the teacher.
Well as time went on my husband was getting madder and madder at how sloppy our house was, and that I didn't do dishes, or like to cook, or put laundry away. I just went on the computer and read all day and night.
With the description of SCT I find that this is all we feel like doing because of no motivation. I can't even make myself walk my dog around the block.
I take adderal xr 20 mg. but this barely helps. What are we to do in order to live productive lives. I am such a horrible role model for my kids. I don't feel like doing anything ever. It's so awful and nobody understands. I sure hope there's reincarnation and I get a second go around because I've missed a whole lot of living.

Hey try looking into B complex/ energy giving vitamins. They've helped me a lot. Fish oil also has certain properties that enable to function like an energy drink.

I'm always tired and before I started taking it, I was sleeping 9-12 hours a day. Now I can't sleep longer than 9 hours before my body wakes itself up. The B complex (Jarrow formula) has a lot of active ingredients that help increase mental stamina and focus, and also helps generate dopamine which is responsible for a lot of focus.

I just found out about SCT and know this is what I have suffered from all my life. I thought it was chronic fatigue syndrome because I had Epstein Barr at 15 and this is when I can remember the fatigue and lack of motivation starting. But this is also when school work got harder and I couldn't just get by. I never read a book in high school or studied for a test in my life. I couldn't even hold my head up in class. Always had my head down. Would go to the library and sleep every chance I got. I am 49 now and have been trying to find out what is wrong with my for 12 years. I was told by drs. "You have children you're tired from that". I would always ask friends "Are you really tired" , no one ever said yes. 4 years ago we met a couple and they joined my family and I on vacation in NH. I lay in a cot next to them and my husband play cards and games for a week. The husband said to my husband "Something is not right with your wife" and my husband said she always like that. That's when I finally realized what I felt in my heart since I was 15 that I wasn't like everyone else. I always felt why don't I fit in. I look like all the popular girls, I have the same stuff as them, but why do they raise their hands in class, why do they give I damn, cause I couldn't even stay awake to listen to the teacher.
Well as time went on my husband was getting madder and madder at how sloppy our house was, and that I didn't do dishes, or like to cook, or put laundry away. I just went on the computer and read all day and night.
With the description of SCT I find that this is all we feel like doing because of no motivation. I can't even make myself walk my dog around the block.
I take adderal xr 20 mg. but this barely helps. What are we to do in order to live productive lives. I am such a horrible role model for my kids. I don't feel like doing anything ever. It's so awful and nobody understands. I sure hope there's reincarnation and I get a second go around because I've missed a whole lot of living.

I can relate to being tired all the time. I would get up in the morning and after taking my shower, I felt like going back to bed. But what scared me the most was when I would be driving in the car on my way to work and other times throughout the day when I would have to fight to stay awake and sometimes I would actually nod off for a second while driving!! I was in my mid-twenties when I first went to the doctor's for this problem but they couldn't find anything wrong. I took some multi vitamins, although I hadn't tried any mega doses, and that didn't help. Eventually, another doctor asked me some questions about when I was tired and I told him all the time. He told me I needed to exercise and he said it would be difficult at first but after a few weeks to a month I would see a noticeable difference. It did help quite a bit and I kept up with it for a long time.

Fast forward quite a few years and differences in my life did not always allot me the time to exercise. When I wasn't working I could at least take naps but at work I would have an awful afternoon slump where I could barely stay awake. The highlight of my weekend was Sunday afternoon when I would come home from church and take my afternoon nap. I thought about that nap the whole way home from church.

In 2008, at age 47, I was finally diagnosed with inattentive ADHD. I had also come across some information about SCT and realized that I fit that description perfectly. The doctor put me on Vyvanse at 140 mg. (This is roughly equivalent to 60 mg. of Adderall XR ). I couldn't believe the difference it made. Besides the improvement in my ADD symptoms, I noticed I wasn't tired anymore. It was several weeks before I even realized that I hadn't taken any Sunday afternoon naps!! I wasn't tired in the least. I took my medication faithfully but one day I had forgotten to take it and I was away from home and was wondering why I felt so tired around noon time. It seemed strange until I remembered that I hadn't taken my medication that day. That confirmed it in my mind that the medication really did make a huge difference in how tired I was or wasn't.

A few months ago I lost my job and subsequently my health insurance. I was able to get some of my medication free through the manufacturer of Vyvanse but only at half the dose I normally took. Most days I take the 70 mg.to save money but if I have an important interview or when I had a temp job for two weeks, I took the full 140 mg. dose. There is a considerable difference. I'm a little tired at the 70 mg. but not as bad as I was without any meds. I have no problem at the 140 mg. dose.

My husband takes 60 mg. of Adderall XR and it is not an unusual dose. You may possibly need an increase in your dosage. Studies have shown that many doctors underdose and do not use the optimum dose. I do have some improvement at 70 mg. but not as much at the 140 mg. dose.

Sluggish Cognitive Tempo, Winnie the Pooh has always been the poster boy for Primarily Inattentive ADHD. In my opinion, there are a subset of ADHD PI individuals that have sluggishness but that many Primarily Inattentive Adhd folks have none of the slowness seen in SCT.

There are, however, many of us with ADHD that have concurring problems with depression, anxiety, etc. My theory is that the sluggishness may be coming from the comorbidity (the medical term for concurring medical problems) of depression. Depression often manifests itself as lethargy and apathy.

I have written a blog piece on Winnie the Pooh and a blog piece of comorbidities.

http://primarilyinattentiveadd.blogspot.com/2009/12/winnie-pooh-or-christopher-robin.html

http://primarilyinattentiveadd.blogspot.com/2009/12/over-80-of-children-and-adults-with.html

Just a thought, anyway. Tess

D3xter, thanks for sharing your hypothesis with regard to Modafinil's mechanism of action in SCT individuals. I would love to read up more or simply discuss. If you can provide any additional links to reading material that'd be stellar !

I didn't save the links I was reading, but some key words to search for on wikipedia and google are: electrotonic coupling, neural populations, neural encoding, and of course - modafinil.

I'm also curious how many of you have a few of the following symptoms (which aren't often discussed, but could be relevant given the brain structures involved in ADHD-PI/SCT and the symptoms):
Lack of sense of smell
Lack of emotions/feelings (ie not strongly felt or not often)
Tendency to not drink or eat, even though you might be thirsty/hungry (ie. you recognize your body is calling for food/water, but you just aren't really driven to address the issue. For instance, I will skip meals or not get up to get a glass of water just because... i'm not sure why, it isn't that I'm THAT lazy or I don't think I need it).

I'm also curious how many of you have a few of the following symptoms (which aren't often discussed, but could be relevant given the brain structures involved in ADHD-PI/SCT and the symptoms):
Lack of sense of smell
Lack of emotions/feelings (ie not strongly felt or not often)
Tendency to not drink or eat,.
Smell - I think my sense of smell is enhanced. I am always noticing gas leaks that are too small of the gas company to care about. I notice orders before the rest of the family.

Lack of emtoions - Yes. It is a personality trait - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP

Hunger - Yes, to a degree, I am not in touch with this. I have trouble finding leftovers in the fridge, and forget until it is too late. . .

-Also-
When I was diagnosed last summer with ADHD-PI at an age in my upper 30s, I kept telling the doctors it is really like I have excessive daytime sleepiness instead or in addition to it. They either didn't know or just did not tell me that it often accompanies ADHD-PI. Everything seems to center around the tiredness, even though it is ADHD-PI or SCT. It is not from depression. I never had that and tend to be unemotional.

-Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_syndrome
Does its symptoms sound familar?

-Modafinil-
Nuvigil is out and the manufacturer is making it economically attractive in comparison to modafinil. It is the stronger stereoisotope of Modafinil. I tried taking it with Adderall XR but could not get the dose right. Alone it didn't seem to do enough, combined it was too strong.

I've been doing research on mental stability, nutrition, and anything to do with health. Out of all my research, the craziest thing happened. My Dad calls me about a product that he been taking. Since he started taking it. He has had an incredible turn around. He lost 15 lbs. His vision has become better. He literally went to the doctor and changed his prescription glasses in for a weaker prescription. He looks great! He is full of energy and has become an incredibly new person full of life. Of coarse, I jumped right in because I saw these changes first hand. I have been taking it for a couple of months now, so has my sister, my girlfriend and some of my friends. We all have similar stories. I will not promote a specific site because I don't believe it to be right, but the name of the product is Genewize. It's crazy!!! How well it has worked and how great we all feel. You send off your DNA and they test it at no cost and custom make you a suppliment. It's 100% specifically what your body needs. No more, no less. It's like the FUTURE OF HEALTH has come to an end. It's here!!! Seriously where else can it go. They are down to your DNA. They analyze it and send you a booklet breaking it all down, explaining all you snp's and what they are putting in your suppliment and why. Then they encourage you to bring it to your doctor so he'll have it on file as well. I'm telling you, I have been labeled depressed, manic. Even my counselor is blown away. I'm not forsure what's allowed and not allowed here yet because I'm new. I would post my phone number so you could call me directly or call my Dad. Either one of us would love to go on & on about this. My sister or my girl friend would tell you the exact same thing. It's freaking nuts!!! I know that's not to professional or politically correct language but, Hay! It's just how I talk.

you know? I tend to be a little cautious about stories that sound "too good to be true". The thing about them is that they usually are.

There are just a tad too many, and too loud adverbs in stories like this .. I admit, it's a gut feeling. But I usually trust my gut feeling in matters like this.

Here's (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/426-genewize-not-wise-not-as-advertised.html) a critical article about Genewize.

Sorry that I am not more enthusiastic .. but one personal hallelujah story does not convince me, no matter how good your experience is. I would be convinced easier if the whole thing sounded more moderate, thoughtful.

This is a combination of internet research on provigil, neuron related reseach, and my own speculation, so don't take it as gospel. There are some other factors that play in and help support this basic idea, but I can't remember it all off the top of my head and don't have time to re-look it up. But thoughts, both pro and con are welcome.

My experiences with traditional stimulants and straterra/wellbutrin seem to conform somewhat with this theory. That is, taking stimulants, etc. seems to improve some symptoms by giving energy, waking me up, and speeding me up. But my thoughts are not as 'elegant' as I would hope normal to be. My working memory is still horrible and my thoughts fleeting and sometimes disjointed. My theory is that normal stimulants are increasing the firing rate, but not addressing the coordination by improving synchonicity, thus the encoding/modeling complexity that can be achieved by the smaller neuron populations has not really improved. And the signal/noise ratio is still low because the noise is likely as amplified as the signal since the stimulants are likely just lowering the effort required to reach an action potential.


I feel exactly the same way on stimulants. For me, desirpramine (the TCA) helps a lot to focus and organize my thoughts. I write computer software, and on stimulants my designs are very sloppy, but on desipramine that are extremely tight and well-thought out.

Can those with SCT speak very fast in certain subjects? I am very slow most of the time, but other times, when I'm trying to let something out, I speak at hyper-speed.

Can those with SCT speak very fast in certain subjects? I am very slow most of the time, but other times, when I'm trying to let something out, I speak at hyper-speed.

I believe I have SCT. I'm usually slow to speech and slow with using speech... but every once and a while I'll be able to express myself very quickly.

The problem is that even though I'm speaking quickly I've sort of shut off that part of me that is trying to talk clearly. Other people can barely keep up, and there can often be mistakes and wrong words thrown in.

I'm also fairly intelligent and when my problem solving skills are taxed more than my working memory skills I can think very fast.

WOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!! if i tried to explain how well this describes me id just be quoting the entire article!!! i cant believe this...

from the medicine, to the sluggishness, to..all of it....they need to hurry up and make this official!!! :)

hello everyone. I am new here and this is my first post.

What a revelation this SCT is. I think it describes me very well. I test high for intelligence and thrive in the world of abstractions such a philosophy, theology, sociology, etc. But, still I am the last one to get a joke or an out of context reference in conversation. People find my conversation ponderous, deep but quite slow moving. So, I think SCT does describe me.

I have inattentive ADD, social anxiety and left to my own devices am utterly hopeless at sorting papers or ordering my desk. Projects, deadlines etc. are easily forgotten, lost somewhere in my inner cosmos. I often lack motivation and typically hit a wall around lunch time which leaves me all but unmoveable.

Recently, I have experienced a dramatic change, though. My new nurse practitioner who only treats ADD/ADHD patients and is brilliant with matching drugs to behaviour patterns and descriptions of feelings, took me off of Concerta and put me on Aderall (40mg of XR and 20mg regular). This made a huge difference in my attention capacity, but I was still feeling unmotivated and without energy. He then gave me Welbutrin and built me up to 300mg, the target dose. Wow, what an immense difference. At age 44, I have never felt so alert and, well, just conscious before. A once intractable fog has lifted. Now, without requiring a major act of the will, I can do my to do list, and without drama.

My only fear is that for some reason or other this might be temporary or something. But, at the moment it is making a remarkable difference. As far as CST goes, I think there is some good improvement there, too. But, it might be just a little early to tell. I am coming up on 30 days on this new combination.

Anyone else have something like this?

john arthur

Recently, though, I have found a

hello everyone. I am new here and this is my first post.

What a revelation this SCT is. I think it describes me very well. I test high for intelligence and thrive in the world of abstractions such a philosophy, theology, sociology, etc. But, still I am the last one to get a joke or an out of context reference in conversation. People find my conversation ponderous, deep but quite slow moving. So, I think SCT does describe me.

I have inattentive ADD, social anxiety and left to my own devices am utterly hopeless at sorting papers or ordering my desk. Projects, deadlines etc. are easily forgotten, lost somewhere in my inner cosmos. I often lack motivation and typically hit a wall around lunch time which leaves me all but unmoveable.

Recently, I have experienced a dramatic change, though. My new nurse practitioner who only treats ADD/ADHD patients and is brilliant with matching drugs to behaviour patterns and descriptions of feelings, took me off of Concerta and put me on Aderall (40mg of XR and 20mg regular). This made a huge difference in my attention capacity, but I was still feeling unmotivated and without energy. He then gave me Welbutrin and built me up to 300mg, the target dose. Wow, what an immense difference. At age 44, I have never felt so alert and, well, just conscious before. A once intractable fog has lifted. Now, without requiring a major act of the will, I can do my to do list, and without drama.

My only fear is that for some reason or other this might be temporary or something. But, at the moment it is making a remarkable difference. As far as CST goes, I think there is some good improvement there, too. But, it might be just a little early to tell. I am coming up on 30 days on this new combination.

Anyone else have something like this?

john arthur

Recently, though, I have found a


Do notice a difference in your ability to pick up out of context jokes?

Dude102,

Great question. It is too early to tell. I do notice a reduction in my social anxiety, but I still have to overcome some of my bad social habits which is an area that was naturally undeveloped over the years and worsened as I lost some of my youthful self confidence/unawareness.

As far as being still a beat behind everyone else in "getting it," I'm going to have to pay attention to that. I am still in my first 30 days and the effects are still growing, so we'll see.

Also, have been an insomniac forever. Have noticed it is easier to sleep but I sleep more lightly and wake early and refreshed like never before in my life.

Do notice a difference in your ability to pick up out of context jokes?

I'm really curious about others with the SCT symptoms and their ability to handle social situations too.

I can pick up the broad social cues, but to be able to react to them is very difficult, sometimes impossible.

Personally I love humor, but I find it difficult sometimes to pick up on a joke... especially the sarcastic variety.

In terms of SCT being a problem of Input and Output, it seems to hit the head perfectly when describing my social problems. I'm slow to pick up social cues, even though I can do it given enough time. And I'm slow to respond to social cues, even though I can also do this given enough time.

This combination had me believing I had Aspergers for a real long time. But the rare social fluency I can attain has me thinking otherwise.

Originally Posted by d3xter404


This is a combination of internet research on provigil, neuron related reseach, and my own speculation, so don't take it as gospel. There are some other factors that play in and help support this basic idea, but I can't remember it all off the top of my head and don't have time to re-look it up. But thoughts, both pro and con are welcome.

My experiences with traditional stimulants and straterra/wellbutrin seem to conform somewhat with this theory. That is, taking stimulants, etc. seems to improve some symptoms by giving energy, waking me up, and speeding me up. But my thoughts are not as 'elegant' as I would hope normal to be. My working memory is still horrible and my thoughts fleeting and sometimes disjointed. My theory is that normal stimulants are increasing the firing rate, but not addressing the coordination by improving synchonicity, thus the encoding/modeling complexity that can be achieved by the smaller neuron populations has not really improved. And the signal/noise ratio is still low because the noise is likely as amplified as the signal since the stimulants are likely just lowering the effort required to reach an action potential.
I feel exactly the same way on stimulants. For me, desirpramine (the TCA) helps a lot to focus and organize my thoughts. I write computer software, and on stimulants my designs are very sloppy, but on desipramine that are extremely tight and well-thought out.



I understand and completely agree with this statement... I am currently on stimulants because they are currently better than nothing...but I have no organizational capacity....I don't know what else to look into because theres very little information on SCT

hello everyone. I am new here and this is my first post.

What a revelation this SCT is. I think it describes me very well. I test high for intelligence and thrive in the world of abstractions such a philosophy, theology, sociology, etc. But, still I am the last one to get a joke or an out of context reference in conversation. People find my conversation ponderous, deep but quite slow moving. So, I think SCT does describe me.

I have inattentive ADD, social anxiety and left to my own devices am utterly hopeless at sorting papers or ordering my desk. Projects, deadlines etc. are easily forgotten, lost somewhere in my inner cosmos. I often lack motivation and typically hit a wall around lunch time which leaves me all but unmoveable.

Recently, I have experienced a dramatic change, though. My new nurse practitioner who only treats ADD/ADHD patients and is brilliant with matching drugs to behaviour patterns and descriptions of feelings, took me off of Concerta and put me on Aderall (40mg of XR and 20mg regular). This made a huge difference in my attention capacity, but I was still feeling unmotivated and without energy. He then gave me Welbutrin and built me up to 300mg, the target dose. Wow, what an immense difference. At age 44, I have never felt so alert and, well, just conscious before. A once intractable fog has lifted. Now, without requiring a major act of the will, I can do my to do list, and without drama.

My only fear is that for some reason or other this might be temporary or something. But, at the moment it is making a remarkable difference. As far as CST goes, I think there is some good improvement there, too. But, it might be just a little early to tell. I am coming up on 30 days on this new combination.

Anyone else have something like this?

john arthur

Recently, though, I have found a
I'm your intellectual doppelganger, more or less. I could sit down and talk to you about Hegel's influence on Romantic Nationalism, modern vs postmodern views of science, yada yada; give me a list of mundane tasks, however, and you might as well count them as lost in the Ethers because, well, they are. I'm a good writer, except for all those words I skip. I'm a decent carpenter, except that I take a measurement and immediately write down the wrong number. I'm also lathargic, a fact that inevitably derails any project I manage to even begin. That expalins why I was able to teach myself C#, rewrite nearly all of a fairly complex utility, only to leave it unfinished. It's sitting on my hard drive with a novel, a nearly finished journal article, and a million other untied ends.

Like you, Adderall was like stepping out of a lifelong fog. It was amazing. Unfortunately, I built up a tolerance to it and it no longer works. I'm back to where I started. I hope that doesn't happen for you.

After following one of the links above, I found this lecture reprinted by the Charles Schwab foundation. Start on page 5. It describes us to a tee. It also argues that the inattentive type of ADHD is actually a different disorder. That explains why you didn't respond to Ritalin/Concerta like other ADHD people do, but you did respond to Adderall, like other inattentive types do. Anyway, this is one of the best things on ADHD I've ever read. The author is Russell Barkley, a research scientist at SUNY, so don't worry that it's pseudoscience or anything like that: (pdf) http://www.greatschools.org/pdfs/2200_7-barktran.pdf?date=4-12-05
(http://www.greatschools.org/pdfs/2200_7-barktran.pdf?date=4-12-05)

I haven't read the entire thread (I have read a lot of it, though!), and forgive my desperation, but...

I am 28. I've been on a number of different antidepressants in my life (Paxil, Celexa, Effexor, Wellbutrin), but that was before I discovered that I had been living with ADHD-I (and what my psychologist referred to as a "processing speed disability," describing it as something that sounds exactly like SCT). In fact, I had been in the process of weening myself when this happened late last year, and so I'm currently on 100mg of Wellbutrin (formerly 300mg as well as 150mg of Effexor).

I started a Concerta trial (I'm now up to 54mg), and while I have more energy and motivation, it's also left me (like many others) jittery, a little anxious, and more likely to stumble conversationally. My heart rate is also up, which I can tell without being told. And reading (maintaining focus in general, really) remains difficult regardless, unfortunately. I seem to be making more careless mistakes (you may even find a few of them in this post) than ever, which is frustrating considering that I am an English major with high language skills!

So, there are upsides, but a few downsides as well, in other words.

What would folks recommend? Should I try a lower dose again? Should I switch to something like Adderall? What about the antidepressants? I've been on some in the past, but wasn't trying to treat the root problem at that time. Still, I hated the side effects - the lack of sexual interest, the weight gain, the sweating, etcetera. But I was also on fairly high doses. On the other hand, I'm still taking 100mg of Wellbutrin! So I don't know.

Have folks had success with exercising and diet changes? What about vitamin supplements? I hear a lot about fish oils (omega-3 acids, in other words). Thoughts?

I am very skeptical about the power of - both soduku (am I the only person in the world that has never done one?) The idea of numbers terrified me, thinking it had to do with adding or something..but it is more or less a puzzle...anyway I have moments of doing nothing at work and I thought I would try it.

I hate concentrating. I think you mentioned it hurting ;)

I literally would get so mentally tired I could fall asleep after 5 min. It took a while for the mental sluggishness and desire to lay down on the floor to vanish.

That somewhere between 2-4 pm where you can get soooo tired you practically have to keep your eyes pried open and then it just passes?
Thats what it felt like within minutes of doing soduku.

ANYWAY...over a period of a couple of weeks...It seemed like my brain got stronger...I could do the puzzle for long stretches and not get that mental fatigue.
It hasn't cured me in any way I thinkm but i think it is interesting.

I thought easy mental fatigue was concrete and couldn't be changed, except with meds...

Well of course I have forgotten all about soduku and drifted off into doing something else...I think I will start doing it again and monitor myself in other situations...

I love this whole thread...trying to find where I fit in...does wellbutrin help many here? i am at the max dosage but I am still not close to feeling caught up with everyone else...
I have tried a couple stimulants....I definelty felt sped up...almost like being pushed with a blank stare on my face...i seemed to be sent into a zoned out space of buzzyiness... I was soo hoping for the magic concentration I heard ritalin and the such would do...
the wellbutrin gives me "drive". like if I forgot to turn off the basement light...i would just do it. Not feel like...oh god I have to go all the way down and turn it off...you can imagine what my house looks like...
What vexes ,me is if I forget to take it a few days...the wellbutrin feels all new and gives me a good zap like the first time i took it...Those first few days of taking it i almost really feel "normal". I know they say it should take time, but i can feel wellbutrin within a day....

I fit the SCT profile to a tee and I have tried many drug combos with moderate success

stimulants for the most make me too anxious and sped up...They do help in terms of concentration...but I still bounce around from task to task without any organizational pattern. With that being said I still can work better with adderall/ritalin than without it.

Wellbutrin also seemed to work well, especially in terms of energy.

The doctor that everyone keeps talking about... Russel Barkley...is the only one that I have ever heard about to discuss ADHD-PI SCT specifically in detail. He said something about how stimulants might not be the right choice for this subgroup. He mentions something about how strattera might be a possible alternative.

His video is on youtube its like an hour long and about 1/3 the way through I think he talks about it...

Do those with SCT ever have bursts of mental energy where they work really fast? or is SCT always slow in every aspect including speech, movement regardless of hyperfocus?

canislupus: try Adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) instead of Ritalin, as others recommended. You sound like you're ADHD-I like me. Exercise helps as you noticed (sports), anything that gets your heart rate up for 30-45 minutes, biking being my favorite choice. Remove artificials and most refined sugar from your diet. I'm able to get away with a lower dose of Adderall than most, just 20mg once per day instead of 30mg twice per day, so long as I get my cardio workouts. Hopefully I won't have to raise that later.

I think there's a lot to the theory that ADHD is (usually?) caused by an immune system disorder, as discussed in other threads. 60-70% of your immune system is in your gut, thus why dietary cleanup helps.

I think everyone should get their diet and exercise habits fixed before trying drugs, both because I suspect that there are a lot of borderline cases that don't need meds and because you won't need as high of a dose if lifestyle changes prove inadequate. Getting the "noise" caused by petrochemicals (artificial coloring, flavoring and preservatives) out of your system is critical. It also makes your request for meds more credible since at that point you've tried just about everything else.

I've found that fast-twitch video games are much less interesting these days. I suspect you'll find the same once you find a treatment regimin that works.


I know it's an old post but I have the feeling you're the closest one to a workable solution for me.
I, somehow, know that I need and should do the following to regain control of my life or at least reduce the negative effects of ADD or whatever label you want to stick on this s****y problem I'm/we're facing:

- exercise at least 45 min 3 to 5 times a week
- proper diet, less sugar no additive
- enough sleeping time, ideally go to bed before 11PM

I'm in the process of giving a try to Adderall if possible. My question is:
With this treatment (stimulants+sport+diet), did you get your "functioning brain" back ie. are you able to read, understand concepts and use your working memory as you you use to do?

To dumb this down: This area of the brain does not CAUSE stress, but it is activated during stress. THIS is the starting point for the release of norepinephrine and adrenaline.

Most of us SCTers feel very little stress... And we think slowly. Coincidence? I don't think so.

There is a supplement called Pyritinol that stimulates this area of the brain. I take it every day. Literally, it makes me think faster. Pyritinol, combined with amphetamines (which indirectly act on the LC) is THE best cure I have found for sluggishness and motivation difficulties.

I am certain it is much more complicated than this, but I DO believe that there is a problem with THIS area of the brain in us SCTers. Because anything that stimulates this area of the brain makes me think faster.

So.... slowly but surely.... we're getting closer....


I am literally insensible to stress: actually the more stressful the situation the more alert I am and the more I perform.
This, as you can imagine, can generate an interesting life...

You've made an interesting point linking stress and norepinephrine release.
What is your dosage of Pyritinol and where can we get it?

that is very common for all inattentives. It's called "hitting the wall": and it happens at a given time depending on the seriousness of the attention problems and your intelligence.

If you're reasonably smart you can sort of "freewheel" through the lower grades so that you do not need to pay attention or process input at an adequate speed. You'll absorb the knowledge through osmosis (anyway, that is how it feels to me).
But when the complexity of the subject matter increases, you will have to listen to the teacher / read your books, and then the trouble begins.

OMG!!!!!
I was searching for an explanation to why/when/what did the shift happen for me?
What went wrong, what was the turning point where suddenly things stopped being so easy...?
I am definitely not alone.
Thanks Luthien, I almost choose Beren as a login name, reminds me so many good things.

To dumb this down: This area of the brain does not CAUSE stress, but it is activated during stress. THIS is the starting point for the release of norepinephrine and adrenaline.

Most of us SCTers feel very little stress... And we think slowly. Coincidence? I don't think so.

There is a supplement called Pyritinol that stimulates this area of the brain. I take it every day. Literally, it makes me think faster. Pyritinol, combined with amphetamines (which indirectly act on the LC) is THE best cure I have found for sluggishness and motivation difficulties.

I am certain it is much more complicated than this, but I DO believe that there is a problem with THIS area of the brain in us SCTers. Because anything that stimulates this area of the brain makes me think faster.

So.... slowly but surely.... we're getting closer....


I think slowly and I have a ****load of stress.. could this still be SCT? I have insane anxiety.

I know it's an old post but I have the feeling you're the closest one to a workable solution for me.
I, somehow, know that I need and should do the following to regain control of my life or at least reduce the negative effects of ADD or whatever label you want to stick on this s****y problem I'm/we're facing:

- exercise at least 45 min 3 to 5 times a week
- proper diet, less sugar no additive
- enough sleeping time, ideally go to bed before 11PM

I'm in the process of giving a try to Adderall if possible. My question is:
With this treatment (stimulants+sport+diet), did you get your "functioning brain" back ie. are you able to read, understand concepts and use your working memory as you you use to do?

I'm not jimithefox, but I'll chime in... diet might help and exercise definately does (for me). My wife and I have changed our diets to be 90% 'organic', home-cooked, healthy meals. I've cut out most sodas, sugary drinks and junk food. This all lead to 15 - 20 lbs of weight loss, which alone is a good thing. I think eating healthier foods with more complex sugars does help cognition mildly, but it isn't a miracle cure that negates the need for medication (in my experience, and probably most everyone else's as well).

Cardio-vascular exercise has also seemed to be very beneficial. Although it's hard to go jogging 5 miles, when I already find it difficult to get up and just clean the kitchen (although getting out of cleaning the kitchen might be just enough motivation to go jogging :) ) There's a book called 'spark' that discusses neurological disorders and the impact exercise has on them. You can boil 90% of the books content down to: "aerobic exercise causes the release of BDNF, which builds new neurons and neuronal connections". I do feel better when I've been exercising regularly. I go from the "what did you say, I wasn't listening" feeling to the "I heard you, understood most of it, and I'm on the brink of an epiphany that I just can't quite grasp". I'd love to get to "grasping the epiphany and understanding stuff" level, but I haven't gotten there yet.

---------------------------------------------
On another note, I posted about provigil / modafinil a few months back. I've gone to see a psychiatrist who isn't a pharmacy vending machine and actually had some discussion with me. He wasn't familiar with the SCT concept, but I sent him the barkley slides and Adele Diamond dysexecutive syndrome article. Hopefully he'll chime in with an opinion.

He also prescribed provigil to try out as well as recommend getting a battery of neurological tests performed. I bought 1 weeks worth of provigil ($130, since insurance laughed and said 'hell no'). So far I've been very disappointed. I don't feel any effect at all. My speech goes back to tongue tied and un-fluid. I can't think clearly and my energy/motivation is only slightly above un-medicated. I'm pretty sure I could take one and go take a nap. (to be fair, I sometimes feel I could take a nap after 40mg of Adderall XR). I've been taking 100mg so far, but I upped it to 200mg and a 20mg adderall this past weekend, without much better results. I read something a while back about 300-400 mg being the typical range for treating ADHD.

Anyone who has had a good (or bad) experience with provigil for SCT, please write back and let me know the dosage you're taking and your experience.

For now I'll follow up on the thyroid blood-work I was supposed to do 2 months ago and see if I have a hypothyroid problem. I might also ask if having my testosterone level checked is worth while (although I think that is less likely the problem or only a contributing factor). (anyone had their testosterone levels checked/adjusted?)

I just heard about ADHD-I/SCT a few weeks ago and it totally described me.
For the last two years I have been studying Social Anxiety Disorder, Depression and OCD, thinking that I had one or all of them. But none of them seemed to describe me completely and it was frustrating because I felt like I was the only one in the world with my symptoms. Anyway, I am so relieved to have found out what i have and to know that I am not alone.

I'm not jimithefox, but I'll chime in... diet might help and exercise definately does (for me). My wife and I have changed our diets to be 90% 'organic', home-cooked, healthy meals. I've cut out most sodas, sugary drinks and junk food. This all lead to 15 - 20 lbs of weight loss, which alone is a good thing. I think eating healthier foods with more complex sugars does help cognition mildly, but it isn't a miracle cure that negates the need for medication (in my experience, and probably most everyone else's as well).

Cardio-vascular exercise has also seemed to be very beneficial. Although it's hard to go jogging 5 miles, when I already find it difficult to get up and just clean the kitchen (although getting out of cleaning the kitchen might be just enough motivation to go jogging :) ) There's a book called 'spark' that discusses neurological disorders and the impact exercise has on them. You can boil 90% of the books content down to: "aerobic exercise causes the release of BDNF, which builds new neurons and neuronal connections". I do feel better when I've been exercising regularly. I go from the "what did you say, I wasn't listening" feeling to the "I heard you, understood most of it, and I'm on the brink of an epiphany that I just can't quite grasp". I'd love to get to "grasping the epiphany and understanding stuff" level, but I haven't gotten there yet.

---------------------------------------------
On another note, I posted about provigil / modafinil a few months back. I've gone to see a psychiatrist who isn't a pharmacy vending machine and actually had some discussion with me. He wasn't familiar with the SCT concept, but I sent him the barkley slides and Adele Diamond dysexecutive syndrome article. Hopefully he'll chime in with an opinion.

He also prescribed provigil to try out as well as recommend getting a battery of neurological tests performed. I bought 1 weeks worth of provigil ($130, since insurance laughed and said 'hell no'). So far I've been very disappointed. I don't feel any effect at all. My speech goes back to tongue tied and un-fluid. I can't think clearly and my energy/motivation is only slightly above un-medicated. I'm pretty sure I could take one and go take a nap. (to be fair, I sometimes feel I could take a nap after 40mg of Adderall XR). I've been taking 100mg so far, but I upped it to 200mg and a 20mg adderall this past weekend, without much better results. I read something a while back about 300-400 mg being the typical range for treating ADHD.

Anyone who has had a good (or bad) experience with provigil for SCT, please write back and let me know the dosage you're taking and your experience.

For now I'll follow up on the thyroid blood-work I was supposed to do 2 months ago and see if I have a hypothyroid problem. I might also ask if having my testosterone level checked is worth while (although I think that is less likely the problem or only a contributing factor). (anyone had their testosterone levels checked/adjusted?)

I had my t4 and t3 levels checked and it was on the low range but still "normal". The second time I checked it, the levels were much more normal so you should get it checked twice.

One of my thyroids is slightly below normal, but the other two are normal. The doctors said I was fine... so you think this would make a difference?

Luthien/Dude102,

I was doing some reading on stopthetyroidmadness.com and came across some interesting information that might be useful for you two.

#1: It turns out the typical diagnosis test for hypothyroidism gives the TSH value. The Thyroid stimulating hormone is actually released from the pituitary gland and calls for the thyroid to release more of the T4 and T3 hormones. Because the TSH is just a signaling mechanism, it can't detect secondary causes of hypothyroidism.

#2: The official 'normal' range for the TSH value may be wider than it reasonably should be. At one point .5-10 was accepted. Now it's .5-5, although the website i mentioned said .5-2 might be the most realistic. And most seemed to feel the best around 1-1.5.

#3: The typical drugs prescribed are synthetic thyroid hormones (levo-something) that are equivalent to T4. Apparently this is able to help a fair percentage of patients, but almost all patients seem to do better on the natural thyroid extracts. Apparently the conversion of T4 to T3 (the active thyroid hormone) sometimes doesn't work well for whatever reason. So if they provide the T4 only drug, your TSH will come down, your T4 level will be normal and all your blood tests will look perfect. But because your body isn't transforming the T4 (storage type) to T3, your body is still effectively lacking the thyroid hormones it needs.

Also, I saw a few mentions that the Free T4/T3 values are what is important to watch.

#4: Have you taken your temperature lately? I've also read that body temperature is nearly as accurate for detecting a hypo/hyper thyroid as the TSH. Granted, other things can certainly cause your body temp to change too. But if you have hypo-thyroid symptoms and a low body temp, there's a good chance you hypothyroidism - even despite ongoing drug treatments. (I took my temp yesterday and it was 96F, but I've also been feeling sick lately.)

I'd be interested in hearing how this applies to both of you. I just had my blood drawn this morning to have the TSH test performed. Hopefully it comes back really screwed up some I know what's wrong with me. :)

that is very common for all inattentives. It's called "hitting the wall": and it happens at a given time depending on the seriousness of the attention problems and your intelligence.

If you're reasonably smart you can sort of "freewheel" through the lower grades so that you do not need to pay attention or process input at an adequate speed. You'll absorb the knowledge through osmosis (anyway, that is how it feels to me).
But when the complexity of the subject matter increases, you will have to listen to the teacher / read your books, and then the trouble begins.

I haven't heard the term before, but I think it fits me pretty well. I was able to do well atschool, even through law school, but have not been able to transition from school to work.

So I've decided to go back to school.

Hi

I have only just joined ADD Forums.

I see myself 100% in the Wikipedia definition of SCT. Finding out about SCT was a revelation and has been a massive relief. In common with someone else earlier on in this thread (sorry, can't remember who), I had previously felt isolated, like an outsider even within the context of ADD, and was frankly despairing.

Finding this thread has felt like coming home!.

I have previously tried the Dore programme. This improved my attention and consequently improved my social skills, but did not touch my executive function difficulties.

I'm due to start neurofeedback treatment shortly. Has anyone tried this and if so, what if any benefits did you get from it?.

Hi

I have only just joined ADD Forums.

I see myself 100% in the Wikipedia definition of SCT. Finding out about SCT was a revelation and has been a massive relief. In common with someone else earlier on in this thread (sorry, can't remember who), I had previously felt isolated, like an outsider even within the context of ADD, and was frankly despairing.

Finding this thread has felt like coming home!.

I have previously tried the Dore programme. This improved my attention and consequently improved my social skills, but did not touch my executive function difficulties.

I'm due to start neurofeedback treatment shortly. Has anyone tried this and if so, what if any benefits did you get from it?.

Did you ever try med?

Ive just started strattera for SCT...anyone ever tried/had any thoughts?....ive tried everything else with limited results

Ive just started strattera for SCT...anyone ever tried/had any thoughts?....ive tried everything else with limited results

Hey I can't say I know for sure I have SCT or not but I am taking Strattera right now and it doesn't respond like it had before. So I would just like to caution, that if you find it does help out quite a bit to not stop it unless you have too.

I stopped because of cost and side-effects and tried something else and was off Strattera for a year. Now that I'm back on it it works very well as an anti-depressant for me but not very well as an ADD med anymore.

I have google alerts setup for Sluggish Cognitive Tempo and it notified me of a few developments today.

Abstract on 'formal' SCT symptoms
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ859916&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ859916

Article about the new DSM which mentions SCT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1250962/From-hypersexuality-sluggish-cognitive-tempo-disorder-The-excuses-lazy-new-psychiatrists-Bible.html


Incidently... I got my thyroid test results back. My TSH was .94, so it was fine (they didn't test the T4 or T3). But I was severely deficient in Vitamin D and put onto a prescription strength dose for 8 weeks. I took the first dose about 3 days ago, and I already feel so much better. Right now I feel as awake (if not slightly more) than I do after 40mg of Adderall XR. This isn't to say I'm 'cured' since I've been SCTish my whole life, but I don't think I've felt this good in several years. Hopefully the trend will continue and get only better.

Treatment.....

I'm sure this has been asked before...but what treatments do you use to cope with your SCT? For myself, I think exercise and getting around 8 hours of sleep every night are really important. I am also considering getting medicated. What has worked well for you? I am new to this forum and this is my first post. :)

thats pretty much the same for me....Exercise and 8 hours of sleep are two huge boosters for me...

I am also experimenting with wellbutrin and stimulants when I need them. Wellbutrin seems to work well. It also helps a little with focus and energy. However, I like to drink and I can't drink while I am on it so I dunno if its worth the trade off (I am still in college)

Is anyone up to date on any information regarding Dr. Barkleys treatment towards SCT. He is the only doctor I have ever heard mention it.

Hi Everyone, I'm new here and I am just as grateful as most of you here to have come across Sluggish Cognitive Tempo..

It's been 6 years going through the craziest of things.. from being diagnosed with OCD to Social Anxiety to Depression to Asperger's Syndrome and FINALLY I have found some kind of relief when I chanced upon SCT in Wikipedia.

It even went to the point that I was posting on an Asperger's Forum, the last "misdiagnosis" I remember, because I thought I had that condition from some comments by a psychiatrist a few years ago - which did match the traits I was displaying,

but I knew something was Off, because my mind was moving So damn slowly and I could interact with people.. just slower.


Today, I'm posting here in hopes of finding out more about Wellbutrin.

When I recently realised it was something Adhd-related that I had, not knowing it was ADD/Inattentive/SCT, I was given Strattera after telling them 'Adhd' - and I've been taking it two weeks now.. Only problem is that I think Strattera is for Adhd, and NOT Inattentive Adhd, and it's kind of "slowing" me down! :mad: :(

But I dont want to suddenly stop it, and want to consult my psychiatrist first.

I somehow strongly believe Wellbutrin should have been the medication prescribed to me - and it has been the quite "impossible" 2-4 week wait for Strattera to kick in (I have been taking it for 2 weeks now).. feeling Lethargic in the meantime, but I somehow have a strong feeling I'm taking the wrong medication..

Anyways, I'm very grateful to everyone who has posted here, your posts have been most helpful to me, only recently having understood why my brain moves so slowly. :)

Regards,
Windsoul

Hi,

I'm having trouble sleeping and felt that I needed to come here and pour my heart out. This is perhaps the only other place I have left, besides speaking with my psychologist.

SCT probably started becoming apparent to me in my life when I became a teen at 13 - of course I didn't know what it was called or what my issue was. As of this year, it's been 6 long years for me being on different medications, not knowing what my issue was all along, until a week ago coming to learn about SCT.

And during those 6 years, all I noticed was my world closing in on me, not being able to make friends, not being able to manage on my own with the slowness of my thinking, and as someone mentioned in a post earlier, people simply pushing aside our explanations about feeling slow and telling us that we're 'just depressed, get over it!'

Through the 6 years has been nothing but loneliness.. even the thought of not being able to take care of my parents when they get old, because I couldn't take care of myself, I was both very ashamed and very frightened. There were many times that I was hopeful in the medications that I had been prescribed, thinking that I finally found my diagnosis.. it was Ocd, or Social Anxiety, or Depression, or Asperger's.. but they were all so-to-speak the "wrong" medications.. now that I'm finally here posting.

There have been many lonely tears. I simply started thinking I was going crazy.. and not to sound morbid, but the thought of simply cutting out that "slow" and "heavy" part of my brain was constantly on my mind.. not knowing what the cause was and frustration simply kept growing and growing. I got into fights with people at school, unaware how the medication I had been taking in the earlier years were actually numbing me emotionally BUT still under the impression that I was taking the right thing because I already had my so-called "diagnosis" at the time, and I felt I should keep up with it.

Along the way, I was hating myself more and more but didn't know what to do and then started questioning the medications and what my condition actually was.. that's when they whole crazy trip of jumping from depression to asperger's came - I got desperate in understanding what my condition was (as with anyone who wants to confirm what they have to treat it properly, and have a sense of relief.)

Naturally, there were many thoughts of suicide on many different occasions, but I have somehow always felt that I couldn't bring myself to do it. My siblings and parents didn't understand me too, and at times got angry with me as I was an angry person myself most of the time, but I am very fortunate that I have a loving family. They have however kind of reached a 'here we go again' phase when I tried to put across what Sluggish Cognitive Tempo is and how it's a sub-category of ADD, after different conditions I've tried to find out on the net and explain to them over the years simply to have some resolve for myself. But I can't blame them, it has been many years.

Now, I'm simply hopeful to get a switch to Wellbutrin next week, instead of taking the Strattera which is more for ADHD/Hyper. I'd like to get off the Prozac that I'm on too.

I pray that things will work out, and have planned out notes to "properly" put my discussion across to the psychiatrist, should they be hesitant to prescribe the medication, and of course to be calm and well-mannered, unlike the ideas I had a few days back of being rash with them and telling them how ***k*d up this has been for me and how they've been wasting my time.

I also pray for the rest of you, that things may work out and be manageable, not perfect or ideal because it can't be perfect.. but to get better with time, find suitable meds and get the support you need.


I look forward to many more updates and support from you guys. Thank you.

Cheers,
Windsoul

Hey everyone. Windsoul, I'm glad you found this place, I'm sure it will be helpful to talk to others who are struggling with the same issues.

Willinabox...you said you were in college...mind if I ask what you're studying? I'm a senior in high school right now, and I have a dilemmna about what I should study.

Well...where to start? I have always been a motivated student, and cared about doing well in school. I pretty much breezed through school until my freshman year of high school. That year I began to struggle somewhat, not a lot, but I had about two Bs that year. I probably hurt myself by caring SO MUCH about the grades I had, and focusing less on the learning aspect, but my high school was very competitive and grades are a big deal. My interest have always been more towards the math/science area. I have always been fascinated with science and pretty much since 2nd grade thought I wanted to be a scientist. I also have always loved math because it was more black and white, and it felt more real to me than subjects like english/history.

My dilemmna exists because the classes that come easiest to me are english/history classes. I can usually get by with less effort put into those classes than my science and math. I have gotten some not as spectacular grades in particularly science courses in the past...a few Bs. I'm interested in being an engineer or possibly optometry/dentistry. I'm not bad at math and science, I have a good brain for concepts, but I sometimes seem to have a bit of a delay before it comes clear to me. Once I understand it, I usually do just as well or better than others on tests and projects. I know what I want to do, but I have a lack of confidence in myslef to achieve it.

I know part of my problem is biological, but I think part of it may be motivational related. I have had too many bad experiences in school because of my sct symptoms, and too many comments about being too slow on tests and things. I think that this has hurt my self-esteem and possibly hurt my motivation to try as hard as I coul be trying in some of my advance math/science courses. I think if I was dless concerned with what other people thought of me, I woouldn't be as embarassed that I sometimes had to work harder to perform at the same level. I also think I definitely have sct (which would be biological), and so I have less control over that.

I'm sorry this post is so long...it's just something that's been on my mind for a while. If anyone here can tell me there college/career experiences with having to deal with sct that would be cool. Especially, if you work or study in a more applied math/science field I would love to here your experiences. I just need some encouragement.

@Willinabox:

I would highly suggest doing what your heart tells you and study what seems the most interesting. You're choosing a path that will likely steer the rest of your life. That said, there's no reason you can't jump ship and change paths down the road.

I was in very similar shoes 10 years ago (although I hated English and social sciences as subjects). I switched majors several times because I was conflicted about what I wanted to do, my personal interests, my abilities and my self-image.

On a side note: career opportunities for history/english are pretty dismal compared to engineering/computer science. There's a shortage of qualified personnel for technical type positions. And due to government restrictions, some of this type of work will never be outsourced to other countries.

But ultimately, choose whatever will make you happy. Not what will make you money (unless money will make you happy).

I was just talking to my son's Behavioral Psychologist about SCT. It is estimated that the SCT will hit the DSM in 2012 at it's next release. My son has been dx'd with this as well as AD/HD-PI..We are treating him with Metadate CD 20 mg. Thinking that we need to tweek it a bit so that he has no crash at the end of the day.

I am off to re read this 20 page thread again....this place is great...like crack for my brain

I was just talking to my son's Behavioral Psychologist about SCT. It is estimated that the SCT will hit the DSM in 2012 at it's next release. My son has been dx'd with this as well as AD/HD-PI..We are treating him with Metadate CD 20 mg. Thinking that we need to tweek it a bit so that he has no crash at the end of the day.

I am off to re read this 20 page thread again....this place is great...like crack for my brain


Hi Spence's Mom,

It's always wonderful to read about parents in the forums here really wanting to help their kids. There are parents who don't. All the best with reading through the 21 pages, and hope your son does well! :)

Also, you may want to look into the medications:


Wellbutrin (SR or XL)
Concerta
Adderall

They seem to be of discussion among those with ADHD-PI. And if you aren't already aware, each medication has its own Forum Topic, with their own set of Threads.

Cheers!
Windsoul

Hi again. I have another question for the people on this thread... are you on any medication to help treat your SCT? Do you feel that your medication had helped you overall or not?

Can somebody explain to me the difference between ADHD-PI and SCT or are they the same thing. If not what are some of the differences, I'm alittle confused on this subject and some insight would be great. Thanks:)

me too, I'd like to know the differences.

i've recently been diagnosed with adhd-pi, but i don't have many thoughts in my head that people talk about, i just have bad brain fog, feel tired, unmotivated and switch off very easily etc. Ritalin has helped but i think that it makes me feel a bit wired, then zoned out sometimes if i have a tad too much. pseudo ephedrine seemed to 'snap me out of it' so i'm thinking maybe dex's might be better for me..

sct/add pi... what is the diff...

me too, I'd like to know the differences.

i've recently been diagnosed with adhd-pi, but i don't have many thoughts in my head that people talk about, i just have bad brain fog, feel tired, unmotivated and switch off very easily etc. Ritalin has helped but i think that it makes me feel a bit wired, then zoned out sometimes if i have a tad too much. pseudo ephedrine seemed to 'snap me out of it' so i'm thinking maybe dex's might be better for me..

sct/add pi... what is the diff...

Derp, I would reccomend watching Dr. Barkley's lecture on youtube about the different subtypes of ADD/ADHD. he talks specifically about SCT about 20-30 minutes into it. He is a well known professor from a university somewhere in california (sorry I don't know his details well, you'll have to look himup yourself) who has done much reasearch on ADD/ADHD. Right now, SCT is considered a subtype of ADD-I, but Dr. Brakley believes it isn't ADD at all. It is a great lecture, and at about 20 min into the lecture he talks about SCT exclusively. His lecture convinced me that if SCT does make it into the next DSMV, that is what I probably would be diagnosed with. Just search "Dr. Barkley SCT" and it should be ine of the first results.

Also...no one has answered my question about medication. Well, except for WillinaBox, no one has. Anyone on a medication to treat you SCT? Is it going well?

I was diagnosed 10 years ago with Inattentive ADHD, and only just recently I discovered that there’s a subtype that more accurately describes me. I’ve read a fair bit about ADHD, however I had never heard of Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo) .

I’m wondering if anyone can share with me what you may know about SCT and how it’s been approached, treatment wise.

If it walks like a duck and if it quacks like a duck... Guess what? It's a duck. In the wiki, it says people with SCT "appear to be lacking in motivation." Maybe that is because you have no motivation? This sounds like another name for depression. Depression does the same thing and affects memory and learning in the same way.

If it walks like a duck and if it quacks like a duck... Guess what? It's a duck. In the wiki, it says people with SCT "appear to be lacking in motivation." Maybe that is because you have no motivation? This sounds like another name for depression. Depression does the same thing and affects memory and learning in the same way.

So why does drinking coffee, tea and eating chocolate and cold and flu meds make me feel 'with it'? Stimulants.

We've all been depressed. I can't have been depressed my entire life. The docs don't think so either..

I've got a brand new 4 bed house, good job, great car, live near the gold coast in Australia. I'm not depressed. I can't get fully with it unless something really interests me. I'm always late for work, I'm the worst procrastinator I know (the only reason i keep my job is because I'm really good at what i do, when i'm needed... lol)

shamu321 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/member.php?u=41053), Ritalin helps immensely.. my doc started me on 10mg for breakfast, 10mg at lunch. Any more and I turn into a Zombie, can't function at all. 5mg and 5 is ok, but I seem to crash after 2-3 hours. Like I said pseudo ephedrine 'woke me up' when i had sinus issues last year, Ritalin makes me feel a bit jittery.

People on here are describing dex's to be smoother, I'm quite interested what people think, Ritalin or dex's for add-pi / sct...

If it walks like a duck and if it quacks like a duck... Guess what? It's a duck. In the wiki, it says people with SCT "appear to be lacking in motivation." Maybe that is because you have no motivation? This sounds like another name for depression. Depression does the same thing and affects memory and learning in the same way.

Is motivation measured by outside observation or a person's own thoughts? My own experience is that I 'feel' intensely driven to 'do something' but have no direction for that feeling, thus to some I would appear to not have any motivation. Perhaps I am mistaking motivation for something else, just a thought anyway...

I've just realised the etymology of motivation and it's something like: Enabled Movement - so motivation should be measured by a correlation between internal thought processes and their manifestation in motion...?

So what I'm saying is that it's not that there is no motivation, but a poor relationship between the thought and the action. Executive dysfunction ;)

Is motivation measured by outside observation or a person's own thoughts? My own experience is that I 'feel' intensely driven to 'do something' but have no direction for that feeling, thus to some I would appear to not have any motivation. Perhaps I am mistaking motivation for something else, just a thought anyway...

I've just realised the etymology of motivation and it's something like: Enabled Movement - so motivation should be measured by a correlation between internal thought processes and their manifestation in motion...?

So what I'm saying is that it's not that there is no motivation, but a poor relationship between the thought and the action. Executive dysfunction ;)

Sounds like a typical ADHD trait. You feel motivated to do something but you don't take any direction with the motivation you feel. Why not? Is your mind moving to fast. Do you not think of the steps to fulfill that motivation? Motivation doesn't just make something happen. You have to take steps. Even if they're baby steps.

Sounds like a typical ADHD trait. You feel motivated to do something but you don't take any direction with the motivation you feel. Why not? Is your mind moving to fast. Do you not think of the steps to fulfill that motivation? Motivation doesn't just make something happen. You have to take steps. Even if they're baby steps.

I tend to describe the feeling as a blockage - there are specific instances of stuff I need and want to do - but something prevents me from acting. The song title "Swimming Through Molasses" by Tsunami Bomb is a good description. In general, when I feel driven, it turns to resignation because I feel I 'ought' to be doing something but instead feel frustrated.

I don't know if this sounds similar to other people's experiences?

I fully appreciate the baby steps approach, I've tried an Ultimate To Do list, but it was too damn vague - I'm now on a day-to-day list of simple tasks, kindof a take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves approach ;)

I think this is what I have. It's not that I don't want to be social, or have casual conversations, it's just that it's damn nearly impossible for me.

I can ask a question or two, or answer something. But after that, there are awkward pauses while I'm trying to think of something to say, but my mind is usually blank. All my conversations just seem kind of forced and fake. But I see people just sitting around talking for what seems like hours, it all just seems to flow naturally to them. I've never been able to do that. It's like my brain is very slow to process thought to speech, or just thought in general.


Actually... I do remember this one time at a party, I was pretty drunk, and one of my friends offered me cocaine. At that point in my life I was a bit liberal with my actions and willing to try things, especially when drunk. Anyway, after snorting it, it changed me, it made me soooo social! I was just able to have casual conversation with anybody. I remember a specific conversation I had with two people, one was a friend at the time, the other one I had just barely met that night. I usually have trouble conversating with my own friends, strangers even more, but that night we just hit it off, I just felt so comfortable around them. Usually I feel like I have to interrupt a conversation to put my two cents in, but that night it all just felt so natural, the transition from one person speaking to the next was seamless. I've never been that effective at conversating before or after that.

I obviously don't recommend anyone to go and do cocaine in hopes of curing SCT but from that experience I learned that obviously it's not impossible to I guess overcome SCT. I'd never get on coke to try and rekindle those types of moments. But it'd be nice if there was a prescription drug available that could have the same effects on whatever it was that cocaine triggered that night that made me that social.


I barely started taking medication for ADHD a few days ago. Right now I'm taking dextroamphetamines for one week, and then I will take methylphenidate to see which one works better.

I did try a dose of methylphenidate, but it didn't really seem to have much effect on me. I was still pretty out of focus, and I think it calmed me down a bit, but I have inattentive ADD, so that doesn't really help.

Dextroamphetamines do help me focus and I've been able to get some schoolwork done, but I feel like it makes me even more antisocial because I'm just tuning out everything around me, and I feel kinda secluded. I don't think it's helped me one bit making conversation.

Man! I don't like SCT, anyone have any success so far against SCT?!? :confused:

I think I have SCT, because if I eat anything remotely unhealthy I'm pretty tired and unmotivated but when I eat healthy I don't feel like I have SCT. When I was a kid I wasn't very healthy and I fit all the symptoms for SCT. They do say diet helps with ADHD. So now I'm trying to eat right and not stray from it no matter how tempting junk food may be. I like having energy.

You have described my issues exactly. I have been prescribed ritalin, i'm taking 10mg in the morning and 10mg at lunch. Apparently it has almost identical effects to cocaine on the brain, i suggest you take it for a few weeks to get the dose correct, reality has become clear for me, i'm enjoying conversing and socialing, a huge difference in my life. It can make me a tad jittery so i'm contemplating trying the dex to see if they are more suited. Good luck :)


I think this is what I have. It's not that I don't want to be social, or have casual conversations, it's just that it's damn nearly impossible for me.

I can ask a question or two, or answer something. But after that, there are awkward pauses while I'm trying to think of something to say, but my mind is usually blank. All my conversations just seem kind of forced and fake. But I see people just sitting around talking for what seems like hours, it all just seems to flow naturally to them. I've never been able to do that. It's like my brain is very slow to process thought to speech, or just thought in general.


Actually... I do remember this one time at a party, I was pretty drunk, and one of my friends offered me cocaine. At that point in my life I was a bit liberal with my actions and willing to try things, especially when drunk. Anyway, after snorting it, it changed me, it made me soooo social! I was just able to have casual conversation with anybody. I remember a specific conversation I had with two people, one was a friend at the time, the other one I had just barely met that night. I usually have trouble conversating with my own friends, strangers even more, but that night we just hit it off, I just felt so comfortable around them. Usually I feel like I have to interrupt a conversation to put my two cents in, but that night it all just felt so natural, the transition from one person speaking to the next was seamless. I've never been that effective at conversating before or after that.

I obviously don't recommend anyone to go and do cocaine in hopes of curing SCT but from that experience I learned that obviously it's not impossible to I guess overcome SCT. I'd never get on coke to try and rekindle those types of moments. But it'd be nice if there was a prescription drug available that could have the same effects on whatever it was that cocaine triggered that night that made me that social.


I barely started taking medication for ADHD a few days ago. Right now I'm taking dextroamphetamines for one week, and then I will take methylphenidate to see which one works better.

I did try a dose of methylphenidate, but it didn't really seem to have much effect on me. I was still pretty out of focus, and I think it calmed me down a bit, but I have inattentive ADD, so that doesn't really help.

Dextroamphetamines do help me focus and I've been able to get some schoolwork done, but I feel like it makes me even more antisocial because I'm just tuning out everything around me, and I feel kinda secluded. I don't think it's helped me one bit making conversation.

Man! I don't like SCT, anyone have any success so far against SCT?!? :confused:

You have described my issues exactly. I have been prescribed ritalin, i'm taking 10mg in the morning and 10mg at lunch. Apparently it has almost identical effects to cocaine on the brain, i suggest you take it for a few weeks to get the dose correct, reality has become clear for me, i'm enjoying conversing and socialing, a huge difference in my life. It can make me a tad jittery so i'm contemplating trying the dex to see if they are more suited. Good luck :)

Have you ever experienced thought poverty?


I think this is what I have. It's not that I don't want to be social, or have casual conversations, it's just that it's damn nearly impossible for me.

I can ask a question or two, or answer something. But after that, there are awkward pauses while I'm trying to think of something to say, but my mind is usually blank. All my conversations just seem kind of forced and fake. But I see people just sitting around talking for what seems like hours, it all just seems to flow naturally to them. I've never been able to do that. It's like my brain is very slow to process thought to speech, or just thought in general.


Actually... I do remember this one time at a party, I was pretty drunk, and one of my friends offered me cocaine. At that point in my life I was a bit liberal with my actions and willing to try things, especially when drunk. Anyway, after snorting it, it changed me, it made me soooo social! I was just able to have casual conversation with anybody. I remember a specific conversation I had with two people, one was a friend at the time, the other one I had just barely met that night. I usually have trouble conversating with my own friends, strangers even more, but that night we just hit it off, I just felt so comfortable around them. Usually I feel like I have to interrupt a conversation to put my two cents in, but that night it all just felt so natural, the transition from one person speaking to the next was seamless. I've never been that effective at conversating before or after that.

I obviously don't recommend anyone to go and do cocaine in hopes of curing SCT but from that experience I learned that obviously it's not impossible to I guess overcome SCT. I'd never get on coke to try and rekindle those types of moments. But it'd be nice if there was a prescription drug available that could have the same effects on whatever it was that cocaine triggered that night that made me that social.


I barely started taking medication for ADHD a few days ago. Right now I'm taking dextroamphetamines for one week, and then I will take methylphenidate to see which one works better.

I did try a dose of methylphenidate, but it didn't really seem to have much effect on me. I was still pretty out of focus, and I think it calmed me down a bit, but I have inattentive ADD, so that doesn't really help.

Dextroamphetamines do help me focus and I've been able to get some schoolwork done, but I feel like it makes me even more antisocial because I'm just tuning out everything around me, and I feel kinda secluded. I don't think it's helped me one bit making conversation.

Man! I don't like SCT, anyone have any success so far against SCT?!? :confused:

hmm interesting. I also have that thought poverty issue that you mentioned. It feels like it takes so much energy to keep up with conversations and think of stuff to say.

Just wondering, how was your memory while on coke? Were you able to remember things you weren't able to in the past?

hmm interesting. I also have that thought poverty issue that you mentioned. It feels like it takes so much energy to keep up with conversations and think of stuff to say.

Just wondering, how was your memory while on coke? Were you able to remember things you weren't able to in the past?

Honestly, that was so long ago, I can't really recall all the details. But the thing is, I think it was the combination of both alcohol and coke that made me very social. Because I did try coke another two times a bit later on, and it didn't have the same effect. I felt the numbness and it did make me more alert, but my social skills just weren't up to par as when I combined the coke with alcohol. But I felt really normal that first night, the coke somehow took my drunkness away and I just felt how I believe a normal person feels all the time... smooth, well constructed sentences were coming out of my mouth, trading sentences back and forth, just very natural conversations

Is it possible I may just have social anxiety instead of SCT? Along with ADD-I of course.

I really get anxious when I see someone I know, but I don't see too often. My first reaction is to see if I can avoid them if possible. People I see often though, I don't really get as anxious though, just because I guess I kinda expect to see them. And they know I'm pretty quiet, so we don't really get past the casual greeting and maybe like a very small conversation. But when someone wants to engage me into a conversation though, I do start to get a bit anxious.

Is it possible that I have difficulty holding a conversation due to anxiety? Or maybe it is SCT?

Even with relatives and close friends, I've never really been able to have natural, long, deep conversations. It always feels kinda fake and almost like an interview, or they're usually very short conversations.

I'm hoping a socially anxious person can chime in... can you hold a conversation with people you are familiar and comfortable around, like family and close friends? Or do you have trouble talking with everybody? Family, friends, strangers, groups, crowds?

Honestly, that was so long ago, I can't really recall all the details. But the thing is, I think it was the combination of both alcohol and coke that made me very social. Because I did try coke another two times a bit later on, and it didn't have the same effect. I felt the numbness and it did make me more alert, but my social skills just weren't up to par as when I combined the coke with alcohol. But I felt really normal that first night, the coke somehow took my drunkness away and I just felt how I believe a normal person feels all the time... smooth, well constructed sentences were coming out of my mouth, trading sentences back and forth, just very natural conversations

It could've been the alcohol making you think that you were having smooth convos, i dunno, you know how alcohol makes you think you can drive better when you really aren't..

It could've been the alcohol making you think that you were having smooth convos, i dunno, you know how alcohol makes you think you can drive better when you really aren't..
I was thinking maybe they thought they did it well but that could have just been the effect of the drug. Usually when I think I'm doing well people think otherwise.
Just my theory.

It could've been the alcohol making you think that you were having smooth convos, i dunno, you know how alcohol makes you think you can drive better when you really aren't..

I don't think so. Usually even on alcohol, I'm still pretty much anti-social. When and if I do become social on alcohol, I can pretty much tell when I act a fool. That night I only had enough alcohol to get a nice buzz going, so I act pretty normal when just buzzed. I can tell when I'm drunk. I'm never really one to think I'm that I'm not drunk when I am. I pretty know my intentions, either I'm just going for a nice buzz, or f**k it, I'm gonna get wasted. Anyway, when I took the coke, it snapped me out of my buzz and made me very social. I was able to hold a convo with this cute girl that had barely just gotten there, so she was sober, I'm not saying it was a smooth convo like I was casanova putting my moves on her or anything, it was just a nice long chat, which I'm never really capable of having.

Like a lot of you I have SCT symptoms, actually I have most of these symptoms in a very severe way. I’ve always had problems with quietly daydreaming and feeling tired but the social symptoms I’ve been hearing on this thread feel more anxiety than SCT.

I've always been blessed with some great friends who were usually very popular don’t ask why they liked hanging around me because I don’t have a clue. Anyway I also experienced a lot of awkward moments in social situations. Not always though since I’m kind of a creative guy and I can crack a well placed joke now and then but this is more of a front since I’m usually so shy I have a lot of trouble looking people in the eye when I talk to them.

I’ve watched my own friends in action enough to learn from them and began to learn how to fake it. When I say fake it I don’t mean I’m insincere with people but more like rehashing other peoples lines or using creative stalling techniques.

Let me demonstrate years ago I was at a party and found myself in a conversation with a very beautiful lady who knew my friends. She said Hey I’ve seen you before your that quiet guy who hangs out with Robert and Todd. I almost froze then said "Wait wait a minute I don’t know who you been talking to but I’m not gay as matter of fact I want to ask you out on a date right now". This actually went off very well she laughed pretty hard and gave me her phone number. My buddy Rob had used this line a week earlier when a chick said "I thought you went home". Now I know home and homo is a lot funnier than quiet and gay but it still worked. Sometimes I would use the “wait wait thing are you saying” (repeat back there question here) sometimes I would do this while purposely emphasizing the wrong word. Just to put them on edge thinking they offended me then smile and say I was kidding.

What I’m saying here these are just skills that you will get better at if you practice. Don’t get me wrong once in a while I still say something that’s inappropriate or insensitive because I more consumed in making my point before I forget it, instead of considering who my audience is. I think this is something ADDers are just cursed to do this now and then

Pay attention to people you care about or want to care about lives. If this person mentions she is nervous about seeing her Ex in court or her mother over the holidays. Make it a point to ask them about how it went the next time you talk to them. Ive learned the most meaningful conversations you can have, your actually doing mostly listening. And when I say listening I don’t mean you look like your listening but actually going over possible things you can say next.

Sorry its seems this post turned into a rambling rant I hope it make sense to someone.

Yeah I definitely do a lot of not listening because I'm thinking about what I want to say next. I think because I have always been slow I want to think of something to say quickly so I don't look stupid.

I also think though that because of my add I'm naturally just not interested in what most people have to say, because I find most people boring lol, so in conversations I have to put on an act. I think because of this I have developed some social anxiety because I sometimes wont say or do things according to how they should be done...

In terms of alcohol, I came up with a theory that when I drink it "stimulates" my normally under-aroused brain, similar to the way a stimulant medication would work. A ADHD coach I used to have proposed it to me, and it makes sense. It truly does make me wan to be social, unfortunately its not exactly healthy nor a long term fix.

I find that stimulant medications work in terms of the focus aspect, but I'm definitely kinda boring on them, and like someone said before, they calm me down, but I dont need to be anymore calm than I am. I'm trying to come up with some dosing that works. I also took wellbutrin for awhile and I think its a really good medication for SCT, I just couldn't drink the the medication, so I will probably go back to it when I graduate from college.

Its great to hear all your comments, they are definitely all making sense to me....good luck

Also, I sent and email to Dr. Barkley regarding treatment for SCT. He is a very knowledgeable Doctor who focuses soley on ADHD. He was the only one I saw mention SCT in his lecture (its on youtube)....This is the email he sent back to me


There is not much new research on treatment of SCT in adults. Just one new paper on behavioral treatment of children with SCT at home and school that is not relevant to your situation. As for possible meds, none other than stimulants have been tried. Some colleagues and I have hypothesized that Strattera might work (it also treats anxiety) or even modafinil (an antinarcoleptic shown to work with ADHD). You can speak with your MD about them but understand there is no research – these are just conjectures from a clinical scientist about where things may be headed in medication management of SCT.

Be well,

It could've been the alcohol making you think that you were having smooth convos, i dunno, you know how alcohol makes you think you can drive better when you really aren't..

I drink Molson Exel. It's an .5% beverage and I can attest that it speeds up my convos a good half step:)

I have another question to the people on this thread...do you believe your SCT is within the realm of ADD-I or do you see it as a separate issue? I was wondering, because I've been wondering about this with myself. I was tested for ADD in 2nd grade and was within the ADD spectrum, but the psychologists said I was bright enough to compensate. Since I wasn't severely ADD and not having too many problems in school at the time, my parents decided not to diagnose or medicate me. I was tested for ADD/ADHD again when I was 16, and my results were negative but I had anxiety issues. After finding out about SCT, I realized my symptoms matched very closely with the descriptions online. I have had my IQ tested, and although I scored well above average the parts that measured porcessing speed were average-significantly below average. I am confused though...I didn't think it was possible to grow out of ADD, but apparently I did. I do believe I fit much more closely into SCT than ADD-I. I'm curious whether other people think they are actually ADD, or that their SCT is a separate issue altogether.

according to an answer I directly ask Dr. Barkley ....yes, SCT is a separate issue and is likely not treated well with stims and amphets ..it reacts better to intuniv and straterra..if you ALSO have ADHD-I then the stims and amphets work for that. Does that make any sense? YMMV of course

Informative article on ADHD with a section on what is now known as SCT: http://www.greatschools.org/search/contentSearch.page?q=Dr.+Russell+Barkley&type=articles (http://www.greatschools.org/search/contentSearch.page?q=Dr.+Russell+Barkley&type=articles) click on http://www.greatschools.org/search/contentSearch.page?q=Dr.+Russell+Barkley&type=articles (http://www.greatschools.org/search/contentSearch.page?q=Dr.+Russell+Barkley&type=articles) and download transcript. SCT section begins on page 5, "Is Inattentive AD/HD Really Another Type of Disorder?"

See also video, "The ADHD Model: How Normal Self-Control Develops" at http://www.caddac.ca/cms/page.php?2 (http://www.caddac.ca/cms/page.php?2) CADDAC Videos in left-hand column, and click "Essential Ideas for Parents," then click "Self-Control and DSM Subtypes." SCT-specific info begins toward the last 3/4 of video.

according to an answer I directly ask Dr. Barkley ....yes, SCT is a separate issue and is likely not treated well with stims and amphets ..it reacts better to intuniv and straterra..if you ALSO have ADHD-I then the stims and amphets work for that. Does that make any sense? YMMV of course

I disagree with Dr. Barkley on this. I have always understood SCT to be a subset of those with ADHD-I and I would definitely fit into that category. I take 140 mg. of Vyvanse and it improves my SCT symptoms considerably. It helps with my working memory, my reading comprehension, processing speed, etc. I can think more clearly and organize my thoughts better and I "get" what someone is saying much more quickly.

ADDMagnet,

I sincerely hope Dr. B. is wrong as well. However, I am one of those for whom stimulants (Ritalin, Adderall, Welbutrin too) do not work. They made me feel as though they were helping but did not. I cannot afford to wait another decade or more for researchers to come up with something that helps.

ADDMagnet,

I sincerely hope Dr. B. is wrong as well. However, I am one of those for whom stimulants (Ritalin, Adderall, Welbutrin too) do not work. They made me feel as though they were helping but did not. I cannot afford to wait another decade or more for researchers to come up with something that helps.

Have you tried Straterra?

More research needs to be done on the inattentive ADHD and on adults. They can't just assume that whatever results they found on hyperactive kids translates the same to adults or those with inattentive ADHD. There are still a lot of unanswered questions and untested assumptions.

I am going to ask about it when I see my doc again.

Hello, everybody!

I have SCT too.
I barely speak English so..try use quotes..

I think this is what I have. It's not that I don't want to be social, or have casual conversations, it's just that it's damn nearly impossible for me.

I can ask a question or two, or answer something. But after that, there are awkward pauses while I'm trying to think of something to say, but my mind is usually blank. All my conversations just seem kind of forced and fake. But I see people just sitting around talking for what seems like hours, it all just seems to flow naturally to them. I've never been able to do that. It's like my brain is very slow to process thought to speech, or just thought in general.


Actually... I do remember this one time at a party, I was pretty drunk, and one of my friends offered me cocaine. At that point in my life I was a bit liberal with my actions and willing to try things, especially when drunk. Anyway, after snorting it, it changed me, it made me soooo social! I was just able to have casual conversation with anybody. I remember a specific conversation I had with two people, one was a friend at the time, the other one I had just barely met that night. I usually have trouble conversating with my own friends, strangers even more, but that night we just hit it off, I just felt so comfortable around them. Usually I feel like I have to interrupt a conversation to put my two cents in, but that night it all just felt so natural, the transition from one person speaking to the next was seamless. I've never been that effective at conversating before or after that.


this is exactly my case!
AWKWARD PAUSES!!!
don't know what to tell,not only having problem with english but with my native language too((
NO EYE CONTACT!
this is list of my most tipical SCT problems

1.Couldn't comunicate with most people,my conv sound awkward
i understand fast inaft but not able to respond right, construct sentenses too slow( often happen I find right respond 1 hour later or a day later.
Personal conversation with 1 person without attention much easier than group
so I gonna try ecstasy anybody have expirience?

2. Daydreaming, distracting yes it is big problem and for me it definetly genetic and every generation from my grandfather to me it's getting worst
so it's degeneration
also i'm lose stuff,forget stuff, come back at house 3-4 times before I finaly leave.. always late
3. Slow cognitive speed
impaired in the capacity for learning new skills;
Knowledge often limited to trivia (�headline intelligence�); forgetful of details, especially names,DATES,NUMBERS;
this was quote.
4.Problem with calculating I like to study math- but make careless mistakes,
5. Huuuge problem to get up in a morning aaah!
i'm not able to do it on regular basis so I found evening job
6. I'm 25 and never had girlfriend, because most girls consider me like
immature odd person and unfortunatly it's very true(

I am also have:
schizoid personality traits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder
Shy narcissist personality - http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcissism/arrogantshycomparison.html
Autogynephillia

afterall I am still able to take care of myself because my SCT case is not too severe
only thing that realy helps me is meditation,concentration,focus training
i try to do it phisycal like religious fanantic very close to praying state
(moving my head back and forth like autist)without it my mind just crawl away

Hello, everybody!

I have SCT too.
I barely speak English so..try use quotes..



this is exactly my case!
AWKWARD PAUSES!!!
don't know what to tell,not only having problem with english but with my native language too((
NO EYE CONTACT!
this is list of my most tipical SCT problems

1.Couldn't comunicate with most people,my conv sound awkward
i understand fast inaft but not able to respond right, construct sentenses too slow( often happen I find right respond 1 hour later or a day later.
Personal conversation with 1 person without attention much easier than group
so I gonna try ecstasy anybody have expirience?

2. Daydreaming, distracting yes it is big problem and for me it definetly genetic and every generation from my grandfather to me it's getting worst
so it's degeneration
also i'm lose stuff,forget stuff, come back at house 3-4 times before I finaly leave.. always late
3. Slow cognitive speed
impaired in the capacity for learning new skills;
Knowledge often limited to trivia (�headline intelligence�); forgetful of details, especially names,DATES,NUMBERS;
this was quote.
4.Problem with calculating I like to study math- but make careless mistakes,
5. Huuuge problem to get up in a morning aaah!
i'm not able to do it on regular basis so I found evening job
6. I'm 25 and never had girlfriend, because most girls consider me like
immature odd person and unfortunatly it's very true(

I am also have:
schizoid personality traits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder
Shy narcissist personality - http://www1.appstate.edu/~hillrw/Narcissism/arrogantshycomparison.html (http://www1.appstate.edu/%7Ehillrw/Narcissism/arrogantshycomparison.html)
Autogynephillia

afterall I am still able to take care of myself because my SCT case is not too severe
only thing that realy helps me is meditation,concentration,focus training
i try to do it phisycal like religious fanantic very close to praying state
(moving my head back and forth like autist)without it my mind just crawl away

Even i have exact problems like you both have. In some of our team parties i have spent the whole 4 or 5 hours just like a bystander, listening to others conversations or just answering the questions others ask.

ADDMagnet,

I sincerely hope Dr. B. is wrong as well. However, I am one of those for whom stimulants (Ritalin, Adderall, Welbutrin too) do not work. They made me feel as though they were helping but did not. I cannot afford to wait another decade or more for researchers to come up with something that helps.

WOW! Finding this thread has got me questioning everything my doctors have told me (assumed) for the past three years! I was diagnosed with ADHD Innattentive. I've tried Adderall, Nuvigil, Ritalin and concerta. The ritalin and concerta turned me into an empty-headed, emotionless zombie. As for the Addy and nuvigil, the first three days were great! Plenty of energy and motivation. But later in the day, when they wore off, it felt like the "Creeping Death"! Anxiety and his cousin Depression paid me a visit. They brought some friends with them, too. Mr Shortness of Breath, Mr Extreme Fatigue and General Lack of Interest.

While my attention span was not nearly long enough to read every bit of info in this thread, "SCT" sounds more descriptive of the way i feel. I pray daily that i will soon discover the inner workings of my complex psyche. Thanks for listening! And thanks to all for this new insight!

Don

Huuuge problem to get up in a morning aaah!

Tell me about it.

I think when I was younger I had SCT and overtime I learned to deal with it. Now I just have ADHD-I. But yeah, getting up in the morning feels like the hardest thing to do.

I am ADD -I or SCT

Thanks to everyone who has participated on this thread. Together, as we share honest information, we can overcome anything. So far what I have learnt that will help me is:

1. Aerobic exercise
2. Fresh food (low sugar)
3. Amphetamine
4. Social skills training
5. Working memory training (I believe in neuroplasticity - the brain can allocate more power to working memory if trained)

I am taking Wellbutrin now (150mg) and L-Theanine (150mg) Omega 3, Magnesium Citrate, Vit C and B complex

This is working well as long as I can force myself to get up early at the same time in the morning, pop my pills and do some aerobic exercise.

However I am no where near my full potential and can just about keep a job and organise my life.

I'm looking forward to trying Dexedrine or Adderal.

Captain Obvious...WHERE ARE YOU? You were onto something with the Namenda (NMDA antagonist)

Thanks everyone

Hullo everyone im quite new here, and SCT describes me spot-on.

When I was in elementary school, my biggest problem was with the Mad Minute, which was one full minute of 60 speed math problems. Every time I did it, my brain would freeze up and I would not be able to think, and it was very embarassing when I failed every time. To this day I have problems with mental calculations, reading new sheet music, and reading for detail.

Now I need a head count: For how many people here has medication helped with their SCT symptoms? what meds were they?

I was surprised to find out how old this thread is- 2003? I must've been 12 years old then! While the thread isn't ancient by any means, I'm just shocked I hadn't come across this "SCT" business before, what with all my constant research.

Anyway, I was brought to this forum today after a quick google search on "sluggish cognitive tempo." I found out the existence of this term from wikipedia.com (I know it's not the most reliable and scholarly but I adore that site for quick lookups on whatever.) If you were to look at my bookmarks, you'd see "non sequitur," "absent-mindedness," "imagination," and "daydreaming."

I'm excited SCT is being looked into or at least acknowledged by others because I've never seen a diagnostic framework that matches me so perfectly!

Day three of turning our clocks back and I definitely have symptoms of SCT.

Two books to read: "Hypothyroidism Type 2" by Dr. Mark Starr and "The Paleo Solution" by Robb Wolf (http://robbwolf.com). The first because I'm suspecting that there are adrenal and/or thyroid issues at work with SCT and the second because immune system issues underlie an awful lot of ADHD. Paleo makes a strong case for removing grains from your diet to remove a whole lot of stress on your immune system. Gluten free is a start but not optimal. Thyroid and adrenals are tough because you're going to have to find a doctor who doesn't blindly use TSH blood tests. Searching for "functional medicine" nearest_major_city might point you to one.

Basal Temperature Test for hypothyroidism: before you get out of bed in the morning, hold a mercury thermometer in your armpit for 5 minutes (shake down the thermometer the night before) and record the temperature. Record temps for at least 5 days and average them. 98.6F is optimal. Roughly a degree less than that indicates hypothyroidism. I'm well under that. Electric blankets will skew your results. While this test isn't perfect it's a lot more relevant than the TSH blood test and it's free. Treatment is with natural dessicated thyroid hormones, which is very inexpensive. Synthetic hormones should not be used. The lower temp is a sign that your metabolism is sluggish. Seems relevant to SCT. Adrenal fatigue needs to be addressed first, if present. Adrenal testing is done on saliva samples taken over the course of a day.

It's late, that's enough of a brain dump for now. I'll fill in any gaps that I can but my mind is far from 100% yet.

Again, Iv gone through all this before and to no avail. Armour thyroid, hydrocortisone, etc. etc.

There is a reason that these things arent recognised by the medical establishement....no evidence. There may be anecdotal evidence but this is not strong enough to warrant treatment options, only to warrant further invesitgations.

I have ADD, NLD (Nonverbal Learning Disorder) a visual perceptual disorder and anorexia. My anorexia makes my ADD and NLD worse and often it makes my mind feel like it's slow and can make my brain seem retarded, but I don't have SCT per see, but I do have ADD, NLD, visual perceptual disorder and anorexia and they kind of make each other worse and increase the other's symptoms which can make it seem like SCT, but I don't think I really have the SCT type, you know? How certain disorders can make symptoms appear. My executive functions and fine motor skills are pretty bad. Starvation can cause my brain to kind of slow down.

Wow, this is one long thread! I'm going to have to go back and read all of this material -- it looks like there's a lot of good info here! I like Adele Diamond's abstract. But here's my question: What about the folks, like myself, who read incessantly, and who HAVE been good in school, including math, and who are in fact incredibly conceptual, but have all the problems involved in inattention and basically are not good at dealing with physical reality? And what if some of these folks were very fidgety as kids, but otherwise not hyper or impulsive?
Is that ADHD-PI, or is that SCT, or is that Combined?
I bring this up because it's a very important subset. I am a therapist and I'm amazed to see A LOT of this particular constellation of symptoms, but I don't see it described anywhere.
BTW, I am, myself, using Cogmed, testing it out to see whether I think it's worth offering as a service. Personally, I was skeptical, but it seems to be working. I have less spaciness, more executive functioning and far more motivation and "stick-to-it-iveness," especially around keeping track of the details of life, than I've had in a long time, or maybe ever. I've done the exercizes, which are very difficult and which take an hour to do every time, 18 times at this point (you do them 25 times, hopefully in five weeks, but I haven't been able to do it that often).
I think $1500 is overly expensive. But if I continue making progress and the benefits "stick," then I'll have to say that it may be worth the money. OTOH, it's hard to know completely. I'm so focused on working on my ADHD, maybe it's my desire for it to work that's making it work so well for me.

Wow, this is one long thread! I'm going to have to go back and read all of this material -- it looks like there's a lot of good info here! I like Adele Diamond's abstract. But here's my question: What about the folks, like myself, who read incessantly, and who HAVE been good in school, including math, and who are in fact incredibly conceptual, but have all the problems involved in inattention and basically are not good at dealing with physical reality? And what if some of these folks were very fidgety as kids, but otherwise not hyper or impulsive?
Is that ADHD-PI, or is that SCT, or is that Combined?
I bring this up because it's a very important subset. I am a therapist and I'm amazed to see A LOT of this particular constellation of symptoms, but I don't see it described anywhere.


Wordman,

SCT symptoms are found in a subset of those who have ADHD-PI. I fit a lot of the SCT symptoms myself. And, like you, I did well in school, loved reading, and my favorite subject was Math. In fact, I started college majoring in Math but found Calculus too abstract for me so I eventually switched to Accounting.

Being sluggish, daydreaming, having trouble with motivation and working memory problems have nothing to do with intelligence. I had found that medication helped immensely with my working memory problems although it may not work for everyone.

Sometimes it would take me longer to "get" something that everyone else got almost immediately. It wasn't a lack of intelligence; it just took me longer to process the information.

I have SCT in spades. It really sucks and has hindered my life in so many ways. For instance, I remember learning about the solar system in my 4th grade science class and I couldn't pay attention even though I really really wanted to! The topic was fascinating to me. I remember staring the teacher down, praying that my mind would un-fog and I would just process the dang details at a normal speed for once. But no, I missed important details as per usual. It's always been this way, I zone in and out during the details when people are speaking (even when I want to learn) and miss important parts of learning. It's not that I didn't want to pay attention in school, it's that I couldn't in ways that others, probably less intelligent, so easily could. Instead I had to go home and teach myself the concepts after school, by the book. I was only prepared for lectures in high school if I reviewed the previous days notes before lecture began. If not it was like I had absolutely no framework to build upon unlike my friends who could pick up where we left off once we got started.

I just thought I had an average-lower level intelligence and would have to compensate for life, yet I knew something was not right with my brain. Still, I was humiliated to admit my disorder, even to myself and so I didn't think of what it meant. I was still smart enough to cope, do my homework... and I never spoke or asked for help so most teachers avoided calling on me, that helped in lessening the embarrassment. So I made A's and B's all throughout school because I worked my butt off to compensate with no one knowing how hard I had to work behind the scenes.

When I was 16 I looked up my symptoms online (daydreaming in class, procrastination, inability to clean, no organization, anxiety with starting things... wow, yeah I could replay a movie/conversation/fanfiction in my head for 60 minutes during class. Seriously, I became so GOOD at not paying attention half the time I'd just stop trying. It was just depressing being in advanced classes with wealthy kids living the teenage dream while I felt so far behind, like I was stuck in time and staring at them enviously through a glass window. Anyway, I looked online and all signs pointed to ADD. My dad (hesitantly) called a psychologist who insisted I get at least 2 evaluations from my teachers for further evidence. Both teachers denied it, claiming there was no way I was ADD because I always had either an A or B in their classes. The shrink made me take a personality test and then diagnosed me with depression, and said it can cause you not to pay attention. I was not depressed, okay maybe a little, but I can't believe he didn't know how to test for AD/HD back then. He didn't even TRY, and that's what really frustrated me. But being sluggish, depressed, and in High School, I accepted the diagnosis with embarrassment and vowed to never see a shrink or hear of this ADD nonsense again.

Now I'm REALLY depressed. Been diagnosed with inattentive by my GP for 6 mo's now, and I think my tolerance to Adderall is unfortunately high. It's the only stimulant/drug I've been on so far. Now I'm on 20mg 3x a day, and they only last about 3 hours, with the last dose rarely being very effective. I had to wait around forever changing generics of corepharma and barr until I got Sandoz, which is the best for my focusing. Corepharma didn't work in the brain at all, and Barr stopped being good after awhile too. Weird. In a few weeks I have my first appointment with a psychiatrist, hopefully hopefully hopefully I can overcome my ADD demons because my life is currently a mess! Wow, that was some hyperfocus writing, pardon me you guys, I've been holding in my feelings on this, living with it apathetically for a very long time, and I'm just so sick of it. Writing really helps me accept it and feel like I'm advocating for myself finally.

Well SCT chums, all I can say is we have to keep chuggin along. One day the public will realize how narrow and discriminatory their view of AD/HD really was, and maybe we'll get the respect we rightly deserve. But I'm glad to be a part of this forum, It's really nice to find people like me after all these years of daydreaming inside my head and thinking I was the most messed up person alive.

I have SCT in spades. It really sucks and has hindered my life in so many ways. For instance, I remember learning about the solar system in my 4th grade science class and I couldn't pay attention even though I really really wanted to! The topic was fascinating to me. I remember staring the teacher down, praying that my mind would un-fog and I would just process the dang details at a normal speed for once. But no, I missed important details as per usual. It's always been this way, I zone in and out during the details when people are speaking (even when I want to learn) and miss important parts of learning. It's not that I didn't want to pay attention in school, it's that I couldn't in ways that others, probably less intelligent, so easily could. Instead I had to go home and teach myself the concepts after school, by the book. I was only prepared for lectures in high school if I reviewed the previous days notes before lecture began. If not it was like I had absolutely no framework to build upon unlike my friends who could pick up where we left off once we got started.

I just thought I had an average-lower level intelligence and would have to compensate for life, yet I knew something was not right with my brain. Still, I was humiliated to admit my disorder, even to myself and so I didn't think of what it meant. I was still smart enough to cope, do my homework... and I never spoke or asked for help so most teachers avoided calling on me, that helped in lessening the embarrassment. So I made A's and B's all throughout school because I worked my butt off to compensate with no one knowing how hard I had to work behind the scenes.

When I was 16 I looked up my symptoms online (daydreaming in class, procrastination, inability to clean, no organization, anxiety with starting things... wow, yeah I could replay a movie/conversation/fanfiction in my head for 60 minutes during class. Seriously, I became so GOOD at not paying attention half the time I'd just stop trying. It was just depressing being in advanced classes with wealthy kids living the teenage dream while I felt so far behind, like I was stuck in time and staring at them enviously through a glass window. Anyway, I looked online and all signs pointed to ADD. My dad (hesitantly) called a psychologist who insisted I get at least 2 evaluations from my teachers for further evidence. Both teachers denied it, claiming there was no way I was ADD because I always had either an A or B in their classes. The shrink made me take a personality test and then diagnosed me with depression, and said it can cause you not to pay attention. I was not depressed, okay maybe a little, but I can't believe he didn't know how to test for AD/HD back then. He didn't even TRY, and that's what really frustrated me. But being sluggish, depressed, and in High School, I accepted the diagnosis with embarrassment and vowed to never see a shrink or hear of this ADD nonsense again.

Now I'm REALLY depressed. Been diagnosed with inattentive by my GP for 6 mo's now, and I think my tolerance to Adderall is unfortunately high. It's the only stimulant/drug I've been on so far. Now I'm on 20mg 3x a day, and they only last about 3 hours, with the last dose rarely being very effective. I had to wait around forever changing generics of corepharma and barr until I got Sandoz, which is the best for my focusing. Corepharma didn't work in the brain at all, and Barr stopped being good after awhile too. Weird. In a few weeks I have my first appointment with a psychiatrist, hopefully hopefully hopefully I can overcome my ADD demons because my life is currently a mess! Wow, that was some hyperfocus writing, pardon me you guys, I've been holding in my feelings on this, living with it apathetically for a very long time, and I'm just so sick of it. Writing really helps me accept it and feel like I'm advocating for myself finally.

Well SCT chums, all I can say is we have to keep chuggin along. One day the public will realize how narrow and discriminatory their view of AD/HD really was, and maybe we'll get the respect we rightly deserve. But I'm glad to be a part of this forum, It's really nice to find people like me after all these years of daydreaming inside my head and thinking I was the most messed up person alive.

You're not alone in this at all. I can guarantee you that mess is a keyword governing many ADDicts' actions and behaviors. It's good to get it off your chest, though, because bottling it up may make you feel like a freak.

On another note, though, not that I'm a wizard of ADHD or anything like that, but I always try to find a pattern in my chaos. I know that mess appears to be a complete negation of structure, but we all follow certain idiosyncratic patterns. If there's anything I would suggest in the beginning is that you spend a week or so observing and focusing on what informs your messiness and compare/contrast all those moments in terms of time of the day, place/environment, and emotional state. For the sake of keeping the amount of variables manageable, maybe you can force yourself to keep your eating and sleeping habits more disciplined in order to eliminate/reduce their influence and start from there. That way you realize that you can actually regain control over your life. In my case, I know precisely that a small failure, even if just perceived by me as failure, has the potential to trigger off an avalanche leading to disorganization, disintegration, chaos, and unhealthy habits, so now I know how to approach the ways in which I perceive what's coming my way and shift that perception if necessary. Of course, I still stumble and fall, but I no longer get depressed because of this. I've gotten much better about it all.

As for Adderall, if it gives you moments of lucidity, use those moments to the max to your advantage, i.e. do the most important work, create the most important structure for yourself for the week or month to come, etc. I'm not a psychiatrist or doctor, so I can't really say anything about the medication itself. I've heard many disturbing things about it, but then, again, it affects different people differently, so you must keep experimenting and give yourself the time that you need to keep testing it.

Thanks for the feedback Azoox. Yes, I've read that no structure is the absolute worst thing for an ADDer, and that's the problem I need to fix. I'm the same way, I always feel my best when I accomplish things, especially those things I normally wouldn't accomplish. The problem comes when you are still new to your attention deficit, still young, have the world at your feet, no pressure, absolute freedom, and realize the only thing that matters to you is learning... because you spent your whole life not paying attention because you thought you were stupid. So you read as much as you can and then eventually get bored of books because you can't finish them... and so you turn to the internet for your information junkie fix and the cycle goes on.

But yes, structure is crucial, so I'm going to find a job and try to turn my life around little by little.

You're not alone in this at all. You're not alone in this at all. I can guarantee you that mess is a keyword governing many ADDicts' actions and behaviors. [...]

I realize you probably mean nothing by this, but try not to refer to people with ADD as "ADDicts". The general public are largely simple minded. And there are many fanatical opponents of ADD who think nothing of spreading their ignorance through some catchy "misnomer". Remember the "Hindenbus" of a few years ago? That was a term somebody started -perhaps as an innocent joke- to refer to L.A's HydrogenBus, an experimental hydrogen powered bus program back in the 90s. Well that one word, "Hindenbus", quickly took on a life of its own; singled handedly "innoculating" the larger public from ever hearing the actual facts concerning what appeared to its proponents to be a promising new and safe alternative transportation-fuel program for the city.


Thanks,
:nono:brADD

I realize you probably mean nothing by this, but try not to refer to people with ADD as "ADDicts". The general public are largely simple minded. And there are many fanatical opponents of ADD who think nothing of spreading their ignorance through some catchy "misnomer".Thanks for catching that.

Azooz uses such a tiny font that I must have just moved on down the line to the next post. Sorry, Azooz, but there are so many posts to read and so little time.

I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and started doing some research on the subject. Classic signs of ADHD never really fit me dead on then I ran across SCT and the light bulb went off and exploded. I never shirked and large projects and infact operate better working on larger projects, at least at first anyway.

Fortunately for me I am one of those fortunate IQ >130 individuals so I haven't experienced all of the same problems as other people. I realized my problems early on, of course I thought they were normal problems, and adapted strategies to get me by.

I've never really struggled with math too awfully bad and took several upper division math class. On the other hand any time the Math involved a graphical representation as opposed to raw math, well lets just say I made the brainy people look slow.

English and Reading were always a problem, I could read and comprehend exceedingly well and recall what I read but it was proportional to being interested in the subject at hand. In the end I usually skimmed through the homework looking at the pictures and reviewing bold word definitions and skating by with As and Bs in school.

I identified my derpression in my teens and adapted as well as my social anxiety and master the techinuqes to overcome them in my early twenties.

As an adult my most significant challenges are the daydreaming, staying on task, and motivation. I have never really been in a position that I have had to attempt to operate my brain at 100% capacity all the time. So these weren't really issues before, but now when I spend 20 minutes spacing out trying to read 3 measly pages of a lesson and I have 50 pages left to go there is a definitive "problem".

Previous work habits to get me by were to let work pile up and tackle it in a way that now made it a challenge and ergo interesting. I am way past that stage now being a father, student, and full time employee I can't afford to fight myself to get on the ball and stay on the ball.

I started 10mg of adderall IR twice a day and felt a huge relief for 4 days. I felt upbeat, energetic, and focused like I have never been before. I picked up my text book and read and not in the mudane sort of way ... I COULD READ! My spouse didn't have to repeat herself several times and i didn't forget where I layed something 5 mintues ago.

Then between days 5 and 8 the effect leveled off. On day 9 it had near 0 effect. Have other people experienced this significant of a rate of decline in effect? I upped my dose to 15mg to try it out and noticed only a marginal difference, debating increasing it further but hesitant without consulting the doc until shes back in the office from vacation.

I am likewise working on my diet, the adderall has helped that aspect alot as I have not constantly craving food all the time. Sleep I am working on, trying to nap more and get to bed earlier, being a night person this has always been a problem.

Excersise is the big lifestyle hitter for me, I can't get motivatied to get off the couch and get going.

I'm eagrly awaiting the next revision of the DMS. If they do officially recognize SCT then we will see more research into it and with any luck a better pharmaceutcal tailored more for us. At least I can hope anyway.

Overall though I am feeling down about having those focused 4 days realizing what my life might have been like had I been diagnosed earlier.

My wife was particularly vexed at me the other day when I mentioned that I thought everyone else in the work force didn't actually work all day.

kalmnight: that sounds similar to me. I gave up on Addy. I built up a tolerance fast and couldn't tolerate more than 20mg anyhow. I'm convinced that diet is critical. I'm heading towards a combination of Paleo and Specific Carbohydrate Diet. I am much less sleepy now, reading is easier but I'm not 100% yet. I look a lot better so at least there's that.

Do you have an oversize head by any chance?

Get your eyes checked for Convergence Insufficiency (http://www.convergenceinsufficiency.org). It will drive you insane until it's diagnosed and treated. I stupidly dropped my gluten free diet after starting vision therapy, not realizing that I needed both. The further right you are on the bell curve the later CI will become obviously symptomatic. Symptoms are similar to ADHD-PI.

Never heard of that CI before. Doesn't sound like me though. Right now I'm squinting my eyes but i've been at work reading all day now and unless most people don't feel eye fatigue after 7 hours of computer staring I think i'm safe. But it's worth a shot checking into at least, I have good vision insurance.

My melon is of normal size.

I know the diet will take some time to get right too. Right now I'm trying for larger amounts of protein, no sugar, low carbs, and fair amount of fruits and veggies with fish oil and Bcomplex supplements. Not really making a difference yet though.

Kalmnight

How's your mood and mental health overall...besides the ADD/SCT I mean. The reason I ask is because stimulants don't usually "stop working" - it's quite often that something else is either reducing their efficacy or worsening the inattentive symptoms thus even though the stimulants are doing their job, it appears as if they're not.

You made it to day 8/9 before noticing the effects began to wane...it happened to me on day 2. Yes, I felt almost exactly the same as pre-medicated me on day 2 of adderall IR and concerta, both. Turned out in my case that depression and anxiety were exacerbating my ADD/SCT symptoms so that even the stimulants didn't help much.

Medication is the single most effective and readily available method of managing one's ADD. I think one should give it their full commitment in terms of time and energy before deciding to try alternatives. A nutritionally healthy and balanced diet is good for everyone...not just ADDers. Same goes for exercise. Neither should rule out medication.

Another thing...having a high IQ is both good and bad as far as ADD is concerned. I too range above the 130 mark as far as my IQ goes...that's why I was able to make it through HS and college with decent grades no less. Our ability to cope with our ADD symptoms better than less "gifted" persons often rules out even the possibility of attention/focus/energy problems for far too long. It also depicts us, falsely in my opinion, as relatively "successful" or "normal" people. You may have made it through school with decent or even good grades - you may have a nice job or career - you may be able to read and comprehend better than most folks - etc etc - but remember, it's well below expected levels for someone of your potential. My peers in HS - people with similar or even less admirable grades and potential - are far more successful by any standard of measurement than I am. I too realized that I COULD READ once I started medication. I've read more books in 2 months than in 20 years.

ADHD/SCT is a very serious chronic disorder - it's far too crippling and impairing to risk being misunderstood, particularly those of us who've been diagnosed and made aware.

Day 9 was no effect. Day 4 was peak and went down from there.

Usually I'm a pretty laid back kinda guy. Work and school have a lot a stress on me at the moment but I wasn't really doing either when I started the meds. I was on vacation and keeping it low key spending time with the family, watching some tube, etc... it was really a nice vacation even the extended family was well behaved for a change.

I went back to work on day 3, a really low key day (thanksgiving), and left again for5 more days, day 4 was perfect, day 5 I felt okay but at the end I felt a little fog creep in, my wife noticed it too, day 6 more so, 7 and 8 was foggy off an on and day 9 I went back to work and was spacy unfocused and unmotivated all day. I took a higher does this morning and noticed a slight improvement over previous days, but still having problems cutting through the haze.

Depression and anxiety have never been a problem for me outside of my teenager years.

I could write pages -- just open up a vein and bleed, as the writer's dictum goes -- but for now I'll restrain myself to jotting down the essentials of my journey and the treatments I've played with, concluding with the current state of my art. Key terms in bold on first mention. Been lurking and learning, and this is my first post, as I want to share a few hard-earned tidbits somebody might find helpful.

First up, some boilerplate: Here in Britain, having seen in me convincing symptoms of ADHD-PI, an NHS (National Health Service) psychiatrist has been authorising my GP to write scripts for Dexedrine 5mg for about three months now.

(NB: The UK health system has always worked fine for me, but it has it's quirks; for some reason the psychiatrist himself can't [or won't] write the prescription, but gets the GP to do it; good news is a month's supply of Dexedrine costs $10/£6.50. With a prescription from a private doctor, Adderall is available from one or two London pharmacies, legally, as an import, at a price that makes you think trafickers must have stashed it in their orifices and flown in first-class on Lufthansa. At something like US$3,000 for a year's worth of the stuff, I'm afraid to try Adderall -- it might be good!)

Anyway, without going into the nuances of my condition (reading all the stories posted here, it really does seem like Attention Variability Syndrome would indeed be a good blanket name for whatever we have in common), I'd bet decent money I've got some edition of what we're calling on this thread ADD/SCT.

Before "diagnosis" (FYI, I'm 36, male) with ADHD-PI, my long-time drug of choice was one cup of strong coffee in the morning. (Coffee in the afternoon has never seemed to have the desired effect, but in the morning it usually clears the cobwebs. BTW, is it just me, or with ADD does no single pill or potion seem reliably to have the same effect on two different days?)

Eighteen months ago, after reading the Hallowell books, I started taking fish oil pills daily. I still take them, but I couldn't put my hand on my heart and tell you they have a discernible effect (I can't *feel* them doing a damn thing, but that doesn't mean they're not helping in some pervasive, even significant, way).

Twelve months ago I started getting into meditation. I only ever really dabbled, and still do, but I know it helps a lot. Being semi-proficient at it (there's a knack) comes in handy. I've worked up to the point where I can get in the zone in a few minutes, usually, and sit stock still, easily, for 20 to 25 minutes. (Enlightenment just around the corner? I think not....)

Nine months ago, I got really into green tea. I found the "qi" (energy) of pu-erh worked really well, and that I could usefully drink pu-erh late in the day, when coffee did me no good. You might care to experiment with pu-erh or other green teas yourself; the caffeine/stimulant bundles are different than in coffee or black tea, with a different effect -- kind of like wine versus beer versus whisky is with booze; some folks find yerba mate, a South American stimulant, helpful; don't confuse mate with matcha, which is Japanese powdered green tea and also has a "qi" all its own, and a raft of health benefits to boot (matcha has, figuratively, an order of magnitude more anti-oxidant power than other green teas; health-wise, it's the big daddy of the teahouse...or so I'm told).

Six months ago, I was reading Buddha's Brain and the last chapter recommended L-tyrosine supplements. I had great luck taking one 500mg capsule each morning, on an empty stomach, along with 50mg B-6 and 14mg iron (all available from Holland & Barrett, the last as "Iron and Vitamin C"). This may sound weird, but it helped me feel like I was the same person on Tuesday (and again on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday) as I was on Monday. Before L-tyrosine, I'd often experienced a strange discontinuity of self -- not massive, but noticeable: I felt a little different each day, which made it hard to follow through on projects or sustain interest in subjects over months and years. (NB: I'm not currently taking L-tyrosine -- you'll see in a sec what I'm trying instead -- but I plan on experimenting with combining it with coffee and/or green teas on my dexedrine rest days .)

Three months ago (after ADHD-PI "diagnosis") I started taking 5mg dexedrine in the morning. It helped (understatement). Weirdly, I found that the effects of feeling "alive," and having access to mental alacrity when I needed it, would carry well into the night and into the next day. If I took the medicine on a Wednesday, for instance, Thursday was cool and it was midday Friday before I felt "Oh man, I really need to take dex again." Anyone else ever experienced this? (NB: I'm on the IR dex, which is what's readily available here in England.)

One month ago I realized the 5mg of morning dex wasn't providing much of a kick any longer.

One week ago, I realized (f**k!) that the 5mg of morning dex was actually making me *sleepy*. It was mellow and bearable, but not what I wanted.

Three days ago, luckily, I stumbled on two posts by the rogue genius (and, apparently, disciplined self-experimenter and experienced liver of life) Captain Obvious:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=552758&postcount=52
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=614498&postcount=92

Inspired and informed by these posts, today I took my version of the stack he describes (I'll call it the "Obvious Stack" in his honour): Holland & Barrett brand combo capsule 400mg N-acetyl-L-carnitine and 200mg alpha lipoic acid (ALCAR/ALA), plus a B complex tablet that includes 125mg of choline bitartrate; I took this at 9am, empty stomach, with two fish oil pills [the usual].

At 10am, I didn't feel any different, but I had breakfast and took 5mg of dex. (NB: with the L-tyrosine, by contrast -- and by itself, no dex -- the energy boost and heightened clarity can be highly noticeable...glorious, even...like someone's taken Windex and a soft cotton rag to my brainpower.)

At 11am, having measured my blood pressure and found it hunky dory, I took another 5mg of dex. (NB: I've never in my life had a BP issue, not remotely, but once or twice while on the dex, usually in combo with caffeine or alcohol, I've experienced a disconcerting and unpleasant swooning; I think that could be a BP thing, and I'm not one to take chances when an automatic cuff can be had for 20 quid from Argos.)

At 5pm, I took another ALCAR/ALA + B complex stack.

It's now well past midnight and I could keep going. I could also sleep, I think, which is what I'll try to do, after downing a glass of water with 1000mg of effervescent vitamin C (amino acid supplements supposedly work better with vitamin C -- which "donates" something to the chemistry -- but I've also heard vitamin C "kills" the dex; if that's true, then, I want it to happen only after my day is done.)

Conclusion: today is one of the best (non-travel) days I've had in ages (I mention travel because it stimulates me hugely; is this a common ADHD-PI/ADD/SCT anomaly?). I've had mental energy, clarity and motivation, in all the right proportions, for 12+ hours straight. Further experiments may reveal if it was the new ALCAR/ALA/B stack and/or the 10mg of dex (as opposed to my usual 5mg) that did the trick.

BTW: If you are a Tim Ferriss fan at all, he recommends alpha lipoic acid in his new book [I]The 4-Hour Body as part of a general health and fat-loss regimen. And N-acetyl-L-carnitine is also touted these days (though not by him, that I know of). Like fish oil, then, these may be good for more than just ADD.

PS: I have experimented with a few complementary therapies and worked a dozen coping strategy development angles. The most helpful for me have been Meisner technique (for empathy and social calibration; they say it's an acting class, but it's more like group therapy!), meditation (for quieting the monkey mind), good sleep (aided, sometimes, by 3.25 to 7.5mg Ambien, or 1mg sublingual melatonin tablets from GNC in America -- the stuff's not legal in Blighty), diet (going very low-carb, very low-sugar has evened out my energy levels, albeit lowering them, too), lotsa water throughout the day (and a big glass first thing upon waking), and modest exercise (on days I don't go to the gym I've been taking long, brisk evening walks).

Well...good luck, chums, and -- if you'll pardon the pun -- Godspeed.

Hi CTYankee,
I'm amazed that IR dextro-amphetamine (the ingredient of dexedrine) lasts that long for you! I don't know what it's half life is supposed to be, but I have experienced that I usually notice rebound symptoms some 4.5 hours after taking it (when I forget to take the next dosage).
I noticed that it's overall effect does indeed vary per day; I attribute that to (mainly) how well-rested I am. That makes a huge difference for me. It has never changed though to have a very profound effect when, after first taking it in the morning, I dont have to go anywhere. It then makes my thoughts clear and calm; I can sleep like a log on it even.

Also, I am impressed by your stamina and courage to systematically research all those combinations of green tea / coffee / fish oil / etc. Somehow I never worked up the courage to do that ... but maybe that is because I never noticed a lot of effect from any of these things by themselves. I never even found coffee with the strength of ground old iron making much difference, even before going to bed which has made me think that maybe I'm immune to the effects of cafeine: sometimes I hear people say that they don't drink coffee (or even tea) after 3pm because they have trouble sleeping otherwise. I find that very hard to imagine - if anything, I may even sleep better after drinking coffee.

CTYankee,

Thanks a lot for posting.

I know the odditids of the UK system too. I'm now in the states but used to live there. Strattera + Concerta are both covered despite being the most new, more expensive drugs. But Adderall, which is cheaper, isn't. Maybe the higher abuse potential.. so maybe Vyvanse will debut. However, if you've tried Dex, I've read on here people's experiences of them haven't been so different.

Anyway, may I ask how much fish oil you take? I'd offer to try b12 to a greater amount. I started 6mg the other day and its really helped my mood.

Having now taken many meds, I'd say you're ok with what you're doing but would offer that you be on the lookout for anxiety. That's meant to a main side-effect of stimulants after prolonged use. This was a big issue for me on Adderall. I started on 20mg xR 2xday, then switched to Vyvanse cause it was so bad. But that causeda lot of insomnia, so I'm now on Concerta 36mg once a day, which is solid if short.

Lastly, you may want to look into Ginkgo at a higher dose (of 960mg) to see about assisting your ADHD issues. I was reading online in a journal that at those higher doses its been shown to assist in memory. It also said only in the near term should it be taken with long-term effects not being studied. If you do a google search I reckon' you'll come across it.

Disclaimer: Relatively long post, I apologize for those who don't like long drawn out stuff. It's not a problem for me, but I would think this being an add/adhd forum it would be a problem for some. Bit of a general post but related to the idea of STC which I had no even heard of before until now.

I have been reading this thread and it's been incredibly interesting. I cannot discern whether this fits me or not though.

If you ask me what I feel my absolute biggest problem is I will say my lack of motivation/drive. I cannot figure out why and have not been able to for some time.

I often get feelings of 'I NEED to do something' but I can't figure out a direction. I simply feel dazed, stuck and confused. I feel that it is so unfair that I'm 'stuck' in this state when others don't seem to be.

The thing about me is I didn't have any major problems at a young age. I was always a hyper sensitive and emotional child, and I was prone to anxiety(which runs in my family). In some ways I was 'shy' but in other ways not so much. I had plenty of friends in my earliest years. But because of my anxieties I would sometimes be reserved. I used to have fears of talking to people working at counters in a store and things like that. I've always had co ordination problems as well. I'd have trouble with simpler things that came more easily to others. I had trouble using scissors at first, but did master it(at 4/5 so not so much of a hindrance). But I always tended to be slow at learning new things - but out of fear. I mean like riding a bike. I was so frightened I didn't learn until I was older. I had trouble learning to tie my shoes. I can't re call exactly why. Co ordination perhaps. And the fact I had so much anxiety when I realized I was having 'trouble' learning to do it that I feared attempting to keep trying. However, I did learn and never had a problem with it after that.

I used to develop little ticks often as a child as well. Whether it was clapping too much at random, or twitches of the eye. However, I always grew out of them, and I do not have any now.

As for academics, I did very well in school when I was young, never any real behavioural problems. Never a low grade, never problems paying attention that I re call in the slightest. I got bubblier as I got older, and around the age of 8/9 I was fairly outgoing and bubbly. I can't re call being a true introvert.

I always did well with reading, I was a very avid reader from a young age. For school assemblies I was often asked to read out various things, poems etc. because I was good at it I suppose.

I do re call the odd moment of a mental block as a child. I remember at about age 7 doing some math work and becoming very stressed and crying that I couldn't do it. But when I got help with it, I could do it. So I think again it could be an anxiety issue rather than anything else? Also I would have trouble coming up with solutions to problems. I often would panic or not know what to do and up very stressed. I have heard ADD/ADHD children(well and people) often do have trouble seeing the logical solution.

I also re call the odd moment of 'weird' behaviours. I'd say or do something I would go 'Why did you say/do that for?' To myself. It's not like it was some major problem but I did notice it. I still do this. The thing is I don't feel like it's all the time. For the most part I don't feel I had a huge problem with blurting things out. Did I ever? Yes but enough to cause isses or raise eyebrows? No. I've never had a real problem with sitting still or anything like that either. That's the one thing I do not really identify with. I can do it. I rarely get that 'I MUST get up feeling' when in a situation that requires sitting. I don't mind waiting in lines, or waiting in waiting rooms.

However I do have terrible impulse control. I have tremendous trouble making myself do things I don't want to do. With my impulses I feel most of the time they are triggered by something not some strange force that comes out of nowhere, if that makes any sense?

Sometimes when I feel incredibly anxious, or desperate or something I react very impulsively and end up doing stupid things. They often end up making situations worse. It's an awful cycle, it's been this and my issues with motivation that have basically lead to my problems/where I am now.

As for 'motor brain' I do feel this. But it's triggered from something, excitement, anxiety, etc. I always had a problem with talking very quickly. Often it was because of my anxiety. I become so 'aware' of myself, I get nervous as if I am outside of myself rather in my own head so I don't have as much 'control' which is why my speech is fast/garbled or unclear.

I also have a tendency to figit. But it's rarely because I am just dying to move or get out my seat or spot where I'm standing. It seems to be in many sense just a nervous, unconcious habit. Times when I do feel I need to move, or figit however come from when I feel very stressed or anxious or similar feelings. It's not caused by feeling any 'random' need to move. I've never considered my tapping of my foot, pencil tapping etc because I did not like to sit still. It seemed merely a habit to me.

Now, as I got older I just started experiencing all these problems. Inconsistent performance, but nothing major. It got steadily worse though, I'd have trouble doing things like homework, became more interested in doing others things, like playing on the computer. My attendence got worse(mainly around 12/13 and as I got older). I still did fairly well in school but more inconsistent and generally less 'stellar'. Though I still got a lot of positive feedback and people saying how intelligent they thought I was but inconsistent and not working up to potential.

The thing about me was IF I was in school and sitting at my desk I'd do my work. If the teacher said 'do this' I'd do it without much difficulty. However, I'm a huge procrastinator. So unless for some bizarre reason I 'felt' like it, I'd put it off if I could. Like if the teacher said - finish this by tomorrow, but gave us time to start in class. I might not do it. Or sort of only 'half' do it. Meaning I'd kind of half bother with it whilst really not putting much effort. In classes I weren't so good at, HUGE trouble. The older I got the worse I got in Math. I put that down partly to not learning what I needed to properly in grades 7/8. In those years I would wing it. Friends would give each other answers, the teacher didn't enforce much. I somehow got through those grades with B math grades anyhow but I barely felt I learned anything. So come high school, I was stuck. However in time I did learn the more basic stuff, and didn't find it TOO difficult. I just need an extra kick. Sometimes I get a 'mental' block in those sorts of subjects. I just can't 'see' how to do it. Sometimes being showed helped a lot. Other times not as much. Like I just didn't have the 'logic' some people had. If I did one question that followed similar lines, if I learned how to do it. Cool, I could probably repeat a very similar question on my own. But change it up too much, I'm completely stuck again and can't fathom it. Word problems were terrible. Hated them. I've always been good at verbal subjects, such as English, writing, reading. I was fine with those but Math ones. I just couldn't do them. I couldn't figure out how to put the words into an equation. I just had some sort of mental block to it.


My teen years were awful, failures, drive, motivation. The one thing that made me go 'AH' when reading about SCT was the sluggishness. For the longest time I've always been so tired. Getting out of bed is a huge chore - though I tend to be decent at it if I get a LOT of sleep. But even with a lot of sleep I tend to be prone to fatigue anyways. I cannot stand it. It's so frustrating. I don't understand why I am so tired all the time. I find it so stressful. With attendance. Often I just did not want to go. The reasons don't make sense because I never hated school. Even though my more difficult subjects would have been made easier if I was there more often. I also just did not want to get up in the mornings. Sometimes the idea of it was just awful. I always felt so awful for being so lazy. I wanted to be better, I didn't want to be who I was being. I wanted to be motivated, get up, do what I was supposed to. I felt inside like I meant to be someone who did. It would make me so embarrased but still I couldn't make myself do things I knew I needed to do.

I'd never for a second considered ADD growing up, nor did anyone around me. In a lot of ways it seemed situational. The time in my life I was doing my best(when I was 6,7 especially at 8/9) was when I had a lot of structure for the most part. The older I got I lost a lot of structure, problems were happening. So a lot of people could say it was down to emotional reasons, life in general etc. But looking back I feel it was more than that. Especially as I got older. I believe my loss of structure, other issues going on merely presented my symptoms where they were fairly masked when I had less troubles. I even saw a therapist at age 15 and the possibility of ADD or anything like that never came up. Though my being a 15 year old girl it may have been difficult to truly express what was wrong with me. My family doctor first mentioned the possibility when I was 17. I wasn't at all convinced. I went to a psychiatrist who did diagnose me but I didn't understand how she got to that diagnosis so I was still very reluctant to the idea. I started taking Strattera, then went off it as I just didn't feel convinced. I only went back on Strattera 2 years later because my mother pushed me to. I went off it again as I didn't feel any real differences, but I suppose I could have given it more of a try. I did start to accept for sure that I had ADHD this year, went to a psychotherapist and psychiatrist(still am for both). I read the Dilivered from Distraction books, which I had read when the idea was first brought up to me as well. But I really took it in this time. One story in particular sounded so much like me.

Except, I haven't (as of yet anyway) been diagnosed with a 'subtype'. I don't consider myself hyperactive because I am not really I don't think. I do completely and utterly lack a lot of energy. Sometimes, I am better than other times but it's a consistently a major problem for my lack of energy/motivation. I am prone to that 'fast' feeling though, and incredible impulsiveness. But maybe that isn't the same as being hyperactive?

I am disorganized. I can make binders a mess easily. My high school locker could become a disaster in no time. I am very prone to careless mistakes in writing. Often I miss letters when I write. Or even words. I do tend to lose little things often. I also feel slightly dissociative when highly stimulated. When not highly stimulated the most I feel is sluggish, tired, just thinking/daydreaming. As for memory. I do forget little things for no apparent reason. Like my mom had left her sunglasses at a family - friends house. I was there watching their two year old on my own so my mom called me and asked me to find her sunglasses, I did. And she asked me to put them in my bag to bring them home. With her knowing my 'issues' she instructed me to do it right then and there so I wouldn't forget. My mom forgot to ask me to give her the sunglasses though later that day, nor did she ask me for weeks. When she did, I went 'Oh wow I completely forgot'. The sunglasses were not in the bag I originally was thought to have put them in. Nor could we find them anywhere. I did feel awful for it. I can't even remember if I did put them in my bag or not. I feel I did but I just can't remember. Things like this happen to me. It happens often because I do not have to think about the 'item' for a while and then I have no memory of what happened. If I remember an item not too soon after I can often remember where it is. I lose things all the time though, simply because my mind is 'off' in a way. I barely realize I'm putting something where I put it. Often when I do locate it I can't re call how it got there. For things like - appointments, dates etc. I'm not that bad at remembering those things. I'm actually pretty good at it. It's rare for me to completely forget something 'big' like that.

Thanks for the responses.

To Luthien's point about the IR dex "lasting" so long, it isn't that I feel under the influence of it for such an extended period (one to two days). It's that if I take it on a Friday morning and then not again till Monday morning, on Saturday I'm in pretty good shape but by Sunday I'm dragging. I interpret this to mean even a low amount in my blood stream (a half of a half of a half of a half of a half life, so to speak) still has some non-negligible effect on my sense of aliveness/alertness. (Or it could be rebound/withdrawal.)

About the half life of dex, my reading suggests that it isn't constant. Rather, it depends on a few other things, including what nutrients or substances are in your system at the time. (Citrus and vitamin C supposedly reduce half life and potency of dex.)

Aarondev, thanks for the tips. I'll be on the lookout for anxiety. I'll be extra careful since I'm rather comfortable with manageable levels of anxiety; I sometimes don't even notice them cropping up.

As for fish oil, I take one from Holland & Barrett called "Triple Omega 3-6-9 1200mg." A daily volume of this stuff (3 capsules) is alleged to contain: 360-390mg EPA, 240-264mg DHA, and 540-780mg ALA. (Those are just the Omega 3 constituents.) It says it's molecularly distilled to remove mercury, heavy metals, PCBs and dioxins.

QueenTitania, you sound young, and I haven't been that young for some time. I can recognize some of what you describe, however, in the younger me I remember. If there's one thing I wish the younger me had done, it's become good at dancing. It's an odd treatment prescription, perhaps, but if one is proficient (or better) at dancing, and one knows it, and others know it, one sets in motion certain internal (mostly psychological and bodily) and external (mostly social) wheels that are superior to the ones that get in motion if, like me, you're no good at dancing. I suspect any performing art (or possibly a sport) that brings one out of one's shell -- and, here's the key: out of one's head -- would also bring this curative benefits. But I am guessing in your case.

QueenTitania, you sound young, and I haven't been that young for some time. I can recognize some of what you describe, however, in the younger me I remember. If there's one thing I wish the younger me had done, it's become good at dancing. It's an odd treatment prescription, perhaps, but if one is proficient (or better) at dancing, and one knows it, and others know it, one sets in motion certain internal (mostly psychological and bodily) and external (mostly social) wheels that are superior to the ones that get in motion if, like me, you're no good at dancing. I suspect any performing art (or possibly a sport) that brings one out of one's shell -- and, here's the key: out of one's head -- would also bring this curative benefits. But I am guessing in your case.



I am 20 years old.

Thank you for the reply, only I'm not entirely sure what it is you are getting at it?

I have not done any dancing since I was very small and I was never good at it as I have pretty poor co ordination which has always been something I didn't like about myself. I always felt odd or stupid because I couldn't do cart wheels or things like that. I always wanted to. I partly wondered if it was a mental block thing as well.

I'd have loved to have done dancing, I've always said if I could be good at one thing I'm not it would be that as I think it's beautiful and I imagine if I could have been good at that it would have been something I enjoyed immensely as it combines a lot of things I really enjoy - costumes and performing, music, 'girly' things.

In certain ways I get 'away' with not being co ordinated because I'm very small framed. So people don't really look at a rather dainty person which translates into appearing feminine(which I am really) and think - bull in a china shop which is what my mother always called me. People who know me though are aware of my clutziness and sometimes akwardness.

I've always been into performing arts though. That was the one thing I always did as a kid, for fun. My sister and I used to gather up all our friends at school and make up little skits to perform. I would do the odd play if I had the chance. I always liked to sing as well and as much as lot of people claim that and claim they are good it when they aren't - I know that I am actually decent at it. I've sung in choirs my whole life, some competitive. I love it, it's fun and it's something to work for and you feel great about it. However when it came to solos or musicals anything like that I have this extreme anxiety which caused me so much stress because I physically become incapable of singing on my own in front of anyone. It's like something traps me, my voice and I have no control over it. It's awful because I know I can do it. I'm not claiming to be Mariah Carey or anything that's not the point. But I should be able to get enjoyment out of something I'm decent at it but I never could. I remember when I was about 11 my teacher, who always was very into music started a school choir which I joined and he wanted us to audition to sing an 'Annie' song at the school assmeby when it was my turb, it came out of awful because of my fear. The teacher came over and listed to me when I was singing in a group later and said 'well you're doing it well now,' and it's so frustrating.

It's not even because I want to use singing for any career purposes. But I like performing, so what's not fun about doing - you know - amateur or local types of theatre/musicals.

It's odd as it is I do not really have stage fright, I can speak in front of people, even act but not sing. In fact like I previously mentioned I often was asked to speak/read things at assmeblies. Go figure. As for the dancing, I'd love to do something to increase my co ordination, confidence etc. but I don't think I could that? I'm not good at it and I think I'd only embarrass myself. I think I'm too old for it now anyway, people who learn this stuff learn it young. I'm not entirely sure if you were citing dancing as an example or as something to increase mental drive/congitive skills?

I'm not really any good at sports. I used to do some for fun when I was a kid. I did t - ball OK, and enjoyed it for the most part. I did soccer but never enjoyed or was any good - I think mainly due to anxiety but I am unsure. The one thing I used to like to do was run, for some reason I was good at cross country running or harrier, whatever you call it. Not sprinting, going really fast but the kind where you pace yourself and run far. I have no idea why but I found myself to be decent at that at one point. I never did anything with it though, I don't know that I would now. I'm not sure I'm entirely interested and where do you find adult stuff like that? I did piano for a bit when I was young. But I refused to keep going because a boy(during the group part of the lessons) laughed at me for something and I was so upset. I remember it perfectly I think. Well I am unsure actually, we were asked something 'what is a three wheel bicycle?" And I said tricycle and I wasn't sure why it was wrong. Actually I still don't understand why it's wrong really. I'd say the same thing now I think. My mom and I talked about this last year I think and I told her I still didn't get what was so illogical about saying that. I think I'll have to ask my mom about this again as I'm really not sure right now. I was just so upset because I couldn't figure why what I said was stupid so I refused to go back. I've always had anxiety and fear of being humiliated/being stupid. But the thing is in other ways I'm not so bad. If I trip and fall, yes, it's a little embarrassing but at the same time I could shrug it off. I think the only thing that embarrasses me is lack of co oridination perhaps. My anxiety/getting embarrassed tends to be irregular. It really depends on the situation/what it's about.

I'd not really be that into doing choirs again as I'm not sure I'd want to join an adult choir. Not because there's anything wrong with it I'm just not sure it would be my 'scene' so to speak as I don't think many of them tend to be young people unless it's a university one or something.

Update: heavy metals test showed elevated mercury. Mercury is the second most toxic element after uranium and will most definitely mess with your head. Kidneys are especially strong at collecting it, the adrenals sit on top of the kidneys, so that's probably why my adrenal test results were weird and why thyroid meds had no effect.

Why this test isn't standard procedure is a mystery to me. Most people will test OK, don't misunderstand, but toxic metals need to be ruled out. It is likely that mercury is at the root of my problems. Treatment is lengthy so it'll be months before I know.

Very interesting about Sudafed, wish I had known this years ago. I was diagnosed about 2 months ago, and I'm happier for it. Went to a psych specifically to get evaluated.

I'm an adult with ADHD and a public school counselor. I have only recently heard of SCT and it really fits one of the first graders I am working with. I've been doing as much reading on the subject as I can, but it's hard to find any real recommendations. Everything seems kind of descriptive and abstract, rather than treatment or classroom oriented. I know the standard classroom recommendations for ADHD: more time to complete assignments, chunking, visual organizers, frequent breaks, low-stimulus areas to work, etc. I'm trying to understand how these might be different or added to for SCT. Can anyone give me some ideas of classroom accomodations that I might include in this student's plan that might be helpful for a 7 year old with ADHD-PI and SCT?

I am elated at finding out about the SCT theory as I have always seen ADD pi as a seperate disorder anyway, hence I truely support the quest for ADD Pi to be classified as a seperate condition.

Before coming across the idea of SCT I was actually under the impression from my test results & disscussions with my treating psychiatrist that the ADD represented soley the inattentiveness and that my slow cognitive processing (or working memory) was an additional factor.

To be honest, the last couple of days I have been in tears over uni work (in 2nd yr Bachelor of Occupational Therapy - never even considered uni an option until after I was diagnosed at 25) due to the frustration of not having my brain do what I want it to do when I want it to do it (even dispite utilising Ritalin)!

The issue is, in my experience, is that Ritalin may aid concentration, but not in increasing cognitive processing speed. This means that it not only takes longer to complete most acasemic tasks, but it is extremely tiring too. This is something that I am increasingly struggling with as my academic load increases year by year (not to mention the havok it has played with employment in the past).

I have also struggled to find much information on and support for specifically ADD Pi. It have been driven around the bend correcting ignorant people refering to my condition as ADHD and having to explain the difference to escape their assumptions of who I am. I AM NOT MY DISORDER, it is just an aspect of me.

All in all I want to express my gratitude of at last falling upon a disscussion board/site that focuses upon specific subtypes of ADD and recognises that each subtypes symptoms are experienced differently in individuals lives :).

One intervention that comes to mind for aiding a student with ADD Pi / SCT is to help them become aware of their predominent learning style (ie. Visual, kineasthetic, etc.). Even if the teacher doesn't approach tasks with that specfic method in class, it can help the student to convert the information themself into formats that make it easier for them to absorb.

Many persons with ADD PI/SCT have higher than average to superior spatial awareness, therefore reorganising important info and concepts into tables and lists, and also utilising colour coding and symbolism when writing notes and studying may be helpful. It also helps when information is presented in the first place in a simple and uncluttered format (I myself have ADD Pi/SCT and have found this to be extremely helpful when studying at both high school and Uni levels).

One last suggestion, is it possible to have a note-taker provided in the class for any subjects that may be heavy in content? It doesn't have to be a professional, it could simply be a fellow student who is competent at taking well rounded and structured notes that could be photocopied and shared. This may reduce anxiety of a student who may not be able to keep up and aquire all the necessary information conveyed in a class due to slow auditory processing and/or distraction and ensure this student has a full complement of noes to study from.

SUGGESTIONS FOR AIDING GRADE 7 STUDENT WITH STUDY

One intervention that comes to mind for aiding a student with ADD Pi / SCT is to help them become aware of their predominent learning style (ie. Visual, kineasthetic, etc.). Even if the teacher doesn't approach tasks with that specfic method in class, it can help the student to convert the information themself into formats that make it easier for them to absorb.

Many persons with ADD PI/SCT have higher than average to superior spatial awareness, therefore reorganising important info and concepts into tables and lists, and also utilising colour coding and symbolism when writing notes and studying may be helpful. It also helps when information is presented in the first place in a simple and uncluttered format (I myself have ADD Pi/SCT and have found this to be extremely helpful when studying at both high school and Uni levels).

One last suggestion, is it possible to have a note-taker provided in the class for any subjects that may be heavy in content? It doesn't have to be a professional, it could simply be a fellow student who is competent at taking well rounded and structured notes that could be photocopied and shared. This may reduce anxiety of a student who may not be able to keep up and aquire all the necessary information conveyed in a class due to slow auditory processing and/or distraction and ensure this student has a full complement of noes to study from.[/quote]

@WispedWillow If you are responding to my post, then I have to clarify that the student I am working with is 7 years old, not in the 7th grade. He's in first grade, so he has not yet had to deal with note-taking and some of the other concerns you mentioned. But your thoughts on visual organizers and such are well-taken. I have been working with both the parent and the teacher to figure out what will work best for him. He definitely needs help with organization, and he needs to spend more time going over new material, due to his SCT. I have also encouraged them to use multiple modalities, e.g. presenting things in words and visually and using manipulatives where possible. It's become much easier for the adults in his life to accept "repeating themselves" now that they know that he's not just "being lazy" or "not really trying". As he gets older, there will be tutoring and other after-school programs available to him. Thanks for the input!

Update:

As stated previously (partially, anyway), my diagnosis (by a UK NHS psychiatrist) is ADHD-PI, and I take 10mg once a day of IR Dexedrine, with good effect. There's a lot in this SCT stuff that resonates with me, so I've self-diagnosed myself as being substantially "SCT-positive." I'm rarely hyperactive, I can sit stock still for an 11-hour long-haul flight (in fact, long flights are often a peak experience for me), and I don't forget my car keys, ever (but I do have piles all over the house). My problem is that I don't naturally or routinely feel as awake and alive and alert and energetic and motivated and mentally resourceful as I want to feel.

New information:

Tyrosine -- I continue to find that 500mg of l-tyrosine (Holland & Barrett brand) clears the cobwebs like nothing else and provides noticeable mental energy. My psychiatrist insists that this is a placebo effect as l-tyrosine is not, he says, the limiting co-factor in the production of something or other . He's entitled to his opinion, but I'll stick with the stuff. It works best if I don't take it every day and if I take it in the morning (an empty stomach helps but isn't necessary) and it goes extremely well with a double espresso, that stack providing a "brightness" of consciousness not readily duplicated by other means. My "go-to" regimen, in fact, has become: Part 1) a.m., coffee and tyrosine, followed 4-5 hours later by Part 2) p.m., 10mg of dexedrine. For me, ingesting coffee and dex at the same time results, usually, in rapid heartbeat and feelings of nausea.

[B]Methylphenidate -- Yowza! Having luck with Dexedrine over the past half year, I said to my doc maybe I could experiment with something else, just to see about fine-tuning. His offer was 7 caplets (7 days' worth) of Concerta 36mg, which is an XR (extended release) compound of methylphenidate (Ritalin). He advised me to stay off the dex for two days before starting the Concerta, which I did. Yesterday I tried the Concerta, and my goodness what a wasted day ensued. It turned me into a zombie (to use a word employed by others in these forums to describe a similar state). The mood was pleasant, but I was lethargic and sleepy and drugged, like someone had slipped me a mickey. I went out to walk around in the spring sunshine and could barely get to the post office and back without falling down, falling into traffic or falling asleep. I felt like a total space ape. Six hours after taking the pill, when its effects were noticeably diminished but still present, I took a 20-minute nap followed by a triple espresso; that basically killed the drowsiness and lethargy and allowed for a productive evening.

Lastly, recently I ran across this article about SCT and treatment for it: http://www.articlealley.com/article_1984406_17.html

The source of the article is unclear, but the information it contains was provocative. Russell Barkley does seem to be The Man on this subject, though I guess his focus is on kids more than adults, so most of his pronouncements require interpretation and guesswork. The article says some practitioners suggest Atomoxetine (Strattera) or Guanfacine (Tenex) -- the latter I'd not heard of before -- as the drug treatments of choice for SCT. Anyone had any particular luck with either of these? I'd be curious to know of your experience.

I tried Strattera for three months because my first psych made me to - she had some sort of "stimulant med phobia". It was an absolute disaster. It made me very sleepy and lose my balance.
The next psych had me try Ritalin first and that had a mixed effect: it worked well on motivation but it also made drowsy. Dexedrine was great: it had a wonderful calming effect. Only problem is that it doesn't improve the input/output problems.

Hey everyone. Windsoul, I'm glad you found this place, I'm sure it will be helpful to talk to others who are struggling with the same issues.

Willinabox...you said you were in college...mind if I ask what you're studying? I'm a senior in high school right now, and I have a dilemmna about what I should study.

I'm sorry this post is so long...it's just something that's been on my mind for a while. If anyone here can tell me there college/career experiences with having to deal with sct that would be cool. Especially, if you work or study in a more applied math/science field I would love to here your experiences. I just need some encouragement.
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ME: Sciencer lol

I usually understand math very well but fail to do steps due to lack of practice. I am more towards the science and reasoning also I feel that I am smarter than most people. (whether or not i am lol)
However this is being tested in college where I am majoring in bio and doing bad in these subjects got a D- in math and drop my bio also I had to drop again recently. I just don't put in the time to get the grades. because i hate reading.

I only study for like an hour at most. Put I am supposedly dyslexic which is a title I have considered my self to be. 10 -20 mins on h.w or less.

I am usally constantly thinking nonstop and aside from slow thinking that is not the case. Working memory is impaired. MEaning steps

College has definelty been hard maybe not so the material but me not even applying myself to it.

SCT - is nearly 100% me and I think its a better model for my condition

Aslo have depression/anxiety

I was put on concerta but didn't help made at all (LOWER DOES may help others I heard)

I also get random images when I do certain task or think about concepts. most related to the topic.

I would also suggest Vitamin D3, I have tried omega and vitimin B complexs but no help. I have been taking D3 my I have defiantly seen some changes. Try it for like a week or two and see if your mood changes.


Bye!! also text to speech softwares help

I personally would not ever rely on Wiki as any kind of definitive "expert source"...the contributions are made by whomever wishes to contribute.

Difficulties with mathematics, and processing the written word can often be expplained by LDs. Nothing about the ADHD DX, no matter what type or whatever you wish to call it, rules out a LD. Certainly muddies up this particular puddle of water, IMHO of course.



I understand what u mean by this but add and adhd took a while to be organized. and still has a lot of errors. it can range from allergies to metal disorders.

This SCT model explains my whole life "my problem being selective attention and working memory". Very quite kid from childhood also having a LD (dyslexia) with seems to be common with SCT and anxiety disorder. which I do have. Audio processing disorder as-well.

This disorder seems do with motivation than anything else, instead inhibition (ADHD). This Model FIts my life perfectly. and Ritalin in general doesn't help me at all. I am also a very visual person and so I daydream a lot, because of this. I not stupid or slow (guess I am) just that I am not aroused enough to pay attention. For most of the time. when I move my eyes it takes a mental effort...lol or doing a math problem which I have no trouble doing, just doing more than is need hurts my head. Although I have to be constantly talking to myself. Its something if I don't enjoy I can do but the quailty is minium. <<(like correcting that ad explaining this)

I am a Biology Major so I am quite informed with thigs sciece related.
By the way SCT is already on govermet webpages. and is dude to published in 2012 or 2014.

BYe

And where, I wonder, does this Video Doctor get that wisdom from?
As far as I know, the only hard fact that I have seen in this context (inattentive / SCT vs ADHD w/ H *and* medication) is that we respond better to amphetamine based meds (ie Adderall or dex), as opposed to methylphenidate (ie Ritalin).



oh, here we go again. :mad:

The umpteenth anti-stimulant-alternative-practitioner who thinks they do good ignoring decades of clinical practice and research which tells that stimulant meds do help us.
If it weren't for the dozens of times that I have now read about all those "new" ADD ppl who are made to go through the grind of being put on several different AD's in a row or other "treatments" before they find a doc who is knowledgeable about AD(H)D - it might even be funny.

Only, it isn't.

And the CBT and social sk- my goodness! I just don't know whether to laugh or cry about this.
Sure! Of course! One thing though - therapy - hah! - therapy's too good for them. Why not flog a bit of discipline and action into those unwilling lazy so-called ADHD'ers?

:mad:


For me Strattera was awful - even in the slowest possible titrating up. Made me depressed, walk unsteady, groggy, tearful, anxious.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
I am SCT fuge ADHD ers, only to u.
I am officially classifying MYSELF SCT so when I tell people I will say I have SCT. Plus by any clarification I am normal.

I was on concerta (30mg) and that stuff sucked seriously increase my depression and anxiety. And no change in academic performances. I was even abused by an ADHD math professor, who wrote the wrong problems in my accommodated testing. which made me get 40'S (2 times) on average. Got A 80 in the finial but he still gave me a D- of things. And the funny thing is he said to me at the end of the final exam that just admit u don't know anything. in which I said nothing of course. However before this time he told me he had ADHD I looked up to him (kinda). Also he didn't believe that I was dyslexic which I tried to convincing him. I know that some ADHD are smart because I hang with a few but with out their meds they are powerless. two english teachers suggested I might be dyslexic, never took it seriously untill college, where I notice it and attention problems I had since as child daydreaming, which I credited to a overactive imagination.
Did very well behaviorally but struggled acdemicly. with out spell check u would even be able to read this. Its not that I am stupid or even if I was I think these meds should be prescibed to these LD indidvals for motivation reasons. Because they try just as hard as many of do. my favorite webpage is dailyscience.com which i read every day AND I understand a lot of things there. Which I like to think I am gifted in the Math and science's.

Adhd is inhibition, while SCT is selective attention/long term retrieval or working memoopamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine) and norepinephrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine)ry. Which would make it a separate disorder.

Adhd didn't not fit my systoms since childhood. infact i was the opposit very much. I have a LD (dyslexia) which resides temporal lobe broca's area (sluggish cognitive tempo region (SCT).

"Language problems often co-occur with ADD, and it is suggested that part of the reason might be that linguistic tasks, especially verbal ones, tax working memory so heavily. Spatial and artistic skills, however, are often preserved or superior in individuals with ADD."

You guys can do all the things a normal person can just that ur is caused by low dopamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine) and norepinephrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine). not sure... however SCT is a lack of norepinephrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine) that is my case, based on findings.

just remember how hard it was for u guys to get attention with this attention hyperacity disorder, o wait you guys did. us on the other hand did not because we did what we where supposed to do and still suffered acdemically, without treament. well now i say its our chances to rise. on this section of this form ur going to get a lot of these comments.

by the way in 2012 this ADHD subgroups will be reclassify adding SCT. which I am glad because I have to see a physcitrist now because neurologist don't know squat and this claification and what meds best work. And lol she suggest that maybe my problem is caused by not being able to learn the information so I diff off.

unlike many of ahdh that i have spooken with they don't see stuff in their heads as I do. I constantly get visual distraction when I am doing a task. like when I use the word war I see death WWII, soldiers, war moviess all at the same time, one after the next. Another thing is that both Adhd ers and SCT ers differ is that in childhood abnormal behavior can more likely be corrected. And having met some Adhd ers u guys are like antisocial when ur on ur meds, i like u guys off it..
-------------------------
this detail defense is not only for u but others and founder of this condition, just becase it isn't offcial doesn't mean it not a condtion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3d1SwUXMc0 may help u out
Sct starts around 20 mins to 30

I'm an adult with ADHD and a public school counselor. I have only recently heard of SCT and it really fits one of the first graders I am working with. I've been doing as much reading on the subject as I can, but it's hard to find any real recommendations. Everything seems kind of descriptive and abstract, rather than treatment or classroom oriented. I know the standard classroom recommendations for ADHD: more time to complete assignments, chunking, visual organizers, frequent breaks, low-stimulus areas to work, etc. I'm trying to understand how these might be different or added to for SCT. Can anyone give me some ideas of classroom accomodations that I might include in this student's plan that might be helpful for a 7 year old with ADHD-PI and SCT?


I am college student majoring in biology, so i don't know how much i can help..I have a learning disability (possibly dyslexia, don't see words backwords) and now I am thinking attention problems as well because i also had it in childhood to now. Getting eval currently for aDD. Also i didn't learn how to read till 12 or 13 or so. His mind will have to compensate as of now I would have to imagine, my best guess would be. he will learn at a slower paste than others.

norepinephrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine) seems to cause the problem. for SCT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo

The thing with attention is that it affects working memory/retrieval, so he/she will have to learn with repetition. maybe more time for exams, by the way I never had in high school. In college yess.

My recommendation is to talk with him/her and decide whether the child is intelligent and which is not/be being reflected in academics. Its tricky to note ADD with inattentiveness compared to Hyperactive. Responsiveness would be a good indicator. otherwise the best would be is learning disabilities or possible ADHD-inattentive also life issues may affect him/her. bulling can be a factor, anxiety. This attention a child receives is also negative in their minds, so they should always be treated equal to adults and other kids. Avoid statements like how are u doing to day? give them a position by which they can talk. my experiences is that how are u doing to day starts a negative conversations because in counseling we are talking about neagtive issues, which he/she will expect and talk about. Postives can usally outweigh negatives and may change the child behavior/thinking..


I am also planning to also majoring in psychology aside from being a bio major because its gets a bit boring.

U might be new at this I am guessing, but a lot of counselor still do this to get experience. probally worring at bit i can immagine... well good luck


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3d1SwUXMc0
SCT its from 20 to 36 mins in
TAKE A LOOk serioluy , this video may have changed my life

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I am SCT fuge ADHD ers, only to u.
I've tried to make sense of this line for a while, but I'm going to have to give up.
What do you mean to say here?

I am officially classifying MYSELF SCT
*officially* - in what capacity?

so when I tell people I will say I have SCT.
so when you tell people that you have SCT, you tell them you have SCT :confused:

Plus by any clarification I am normal.
Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here? "Normal" does not equal "SCT", you see.

Sorry, I don't mean to be picky; I read that you say you are dyslectic as well.
But I honestly cannot make any sense of the above, so I just ask.

Also: some people from the US use the letter u instead of you. This is maybe normal among a lot of ppl in the US, but there are also members from other countries in here ... so maybe it is better to stick to 'you'?
In any case, I find it a lot harder to read.
PS mods, maybe this could be done in a word filter?

I've tried to make sense of this line for a while, but I'm going to have to give up.
What do you mean to say here?

*officially* - in what capacity?

so when you tell people that you have SCT, you tell them you have SCT :confused:
Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here? "Normal" does not equal "SCT", you see.
Sorry, I don't mean to be picky; I read that you say you are dyslectic as well.
But I honestly cannot make any sense of the above, so I just ask.

Also: some people from the US use the letter u instead of you. This is maybe normal among a lot of ppl in the US, but there are also members from other countries in here ... so maybe it is better to stick to 'you'?
In any case, I find it a lot harder to read.
PS mods, maybe this could be done in a word filter?

---------- ----------------------------------------------
http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif Key: u = you if ur not from U.S

You can be dyslexic and still be normal because the human brain wasn't evolve to read lol. however it can be learned but people like me it takes longer but with more errors (require more working memory). (I also don't see letters backword, this is rare)

Ur basically saying that people are making excuse/ excuses are being invented but do ur research. The problem resides at the temporal lobe (attention) and Broca's area with causes RD (dyslexia). I don't want to go on meds but I have no choice because I am not studying. I take it personal to such comments u made.(so i made some back, to get a taste of how it feels) The SCT is a excellent proposal to which I think distinguishes two different conditions.

"Officially" in this case it should be used in a Personal Context
Therefore I officially declare myself SCT, is it legally binding?, no.
NOne of these two condition in our view is 100%, diagnosed corrected so keep an open mind as well I.

-----------------------
Science Crucial Thinking = SCT http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif

I find this interesting, where you write that the brain region involved in SCT is the temporal lobes ["...temporal lobe broca's area (sluggish cognitive tempo region (SCT)."] I thought the experts in the field, including Dr. Barkley whom you a provide a link to, currently believe that SCT involves more of parietal lobe in connection with frontal lobe functioning (specifically, impairment in the "fronto-parietal loops"). In addition I don't recall anything from these experts relating SCT (not to be confused with dyslexia or other LD) to impairment in temporal lobe functioning. Could you provide a link or cite a reference supporting this? Thanks.



---------- ----------------------------------------------
http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif Key: u = you if ur not from U.S

You can be dyslexic and still be normal because the human brain wasn't evolve to read lol. however it can be learned but people like me it takes longer but with more errors (require more working memory). (I also don't see letters backword, this is rare)

Ur basically saying that people are making excuse/ excuses are being invented but do ur research. The problem resides at the temporal lobe (attention) and Broca's area with causes RD (dyslexia). I don't want to go on meds but I have no choice because I am not studying. I take it personal to such comments u made.(so i made some back, to get a taste of how it feels) The SCT is a excellent proposal to which I think distinguishes two different conditions.

"Officially" in this case it should be used in a Personal Context
Therefore I officially declare myself SCT, is it legally binding?, no.
NOne of these two condition in our view is 100%, diagnosed corrected so keep an open mind as well I.

-----------------------
Science Crucial Thinking = SCT http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif

Key: u = you if ur not from U.S

Well, of course I got that. It is just makes it much harder to read.

Can't you just spell it as "you" then? Or is that very hard? Incidentally, I have a number of friends from the US and none of them uses this 'u' or 'ur'.
It looks funny though, as if it is a frog talking instead of a person :)

Maybe I could introduce a couple of my own English customisations .. maybe they will catch on. Let's see hmmm ..
I -> ai
see -> c
wasn't -> wazzunt
all c's pronounced as a 'k' -> k
are -> aw
ea -> ie
y -> ai
ai -> e
e (voiced, at end of word) -> i
th -> d
ition -> izzjun
like -> lahk
have -> hev
or -> oh
ng -> n
s -> z

You can be dyslexic and still be normal because the human brain wasn't evolve to read lol.

Ur not riedin mi korrektli. ai zed lahk det if u hev ZKT, u aw bai definizzjun not 'nohmal'.

:cool::cool::cool:
whoa :) But ok - translation:
You are not reading me correctly. I said that if you have SCT, you are by definition not 'normal'.

Ur basically saying that people are making excuse/ excuses are being invented but do ur research. The problem resides at the temporal lobe (attention) and Broca's area with causes RD (dyslexia). I don't want to go on meds but I have no choice because I am not studying. I take it personal to such comments u made.(so i made some back, to get a taste of how it feels) The SCT is a excellent proposal to which I think distinguishes two different conditions.

No. That is not what I was saying at all.

There are two separate things here. First of all, and I even stressed that point: I really could not make sense of what you wrote.

Second: I find that the use of "ur" instead of "you" - which has got nothing to do with dyslexia, but which is a trend among a specific group in a specific country - to make text harder to read. In this, people have a choice.
I am not making fun of your dyslexia.
I do generally make fun of trends and fashions. That is because I find most trends and fashions very, very silly and that is not something that I feel I should apologise for. But that is something completely different, and not personally intended. You'll have to try and see that difference. If I poke fun of your use of "ur" and such, I am not belittling your dyslexia, because it's got nothing to do with dyslexia.


"Officially" in this case it should be used in a Personal Context
Therefore I officially declare myself SCT, is it legally binding?, no.
NOne of these two condition in our view is 100%, diagnosed corrected so keep an open mind as well I.

Official is the opposite of personal. If you say that you use official in a personal context it is about the same as saying that you hold the world marathon speed record - but with 'world' meaning your own family.
It's not about "legal". It is about communicating clearly. It helps if people use words in the same meaning as other people.
You cannot help it if you are not able to write very clearly because of dyslexia. But if you willingly use an alternative spelling and on top of that insist on using your own meaning of common words like "official", it becomes really hard to understand what you mean.

And that was what this was all about. I just wanted to know what you were writing in response to my post; I could honestly make no sense of it as it was written.
No offence was meant, and I am sorry if you feel it like that. :mad:

I find this interesting, where you write that the brain region involved in SCT is the temporal lobes ["...temporal lobe broca's area (sluggish cognitive tempo region (SCT)."] I thought the experts in the field, including Dr. Barkley whom you a provide a link to, currently believe that SCT involves more of parietal lobe in connection with frontal lobe functioning (specifically, impairment in the "fronto-parietal loops"). In addition I don't recall anything from these experts relating SCT (not to be confused with dyslexia or other LD) to impairment in temporal lobe functioning. Could you provide a link or cite a reference supporting this? Thanks.


Sure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3d1SwUXMc0
21:55 to so on..
28:30 on learning disability with errors

He explains it very well and the differences with the typical adhd.
-The difference being this condition (sct) is a processing disorder of some sort (selective) and you where right about the parietal lobe thing too. However the problem is caused possibly by low amounts of Norepinephrine (function is arousal). Whatever the cause, memory is impaired. Working and recalling (long term memory) is affected. which may lead to my possible learning disability. since dyslxia is a broad term I fall into its classification. I can read but it is so hard to do because of visual distractions in my head. I linger on one thing then relate it to others and so on. Lose my placing misreading words, constantly. I also suffer from Audio processing disorder (supposedly) but can listen to information nearly at 400 words a min. SO it seems to be something with Working memory.

http://back2basicnutrition.com/?p=1855
http://s4.hubimg.com/u/1124779_f496.jpg
----

I am still reading up so whoever can correct me here please.

<!-- ================================================== ===== --><!-- Created by AbiWord, a free, Open Source wordprocessor. --><!-- For more information visit http://www.abisource.com. --><!-- ================================================== ===== --> An interesting response meadd823...

The way you frame the Wikipedia usage does make sense and serves to make the thrust of Crazy~Feet's response much clearer to me. Perhaps it makes even more sense as I had not viewed this as a "debate" forum, but a "support" forum.


ETCCC...........

So are we then are we "ADD at all?"



Thank you for this responses as being a SCT er, I am usually on the defense with this topic and this is perhaps the only forum that is less crazy. YOu make great points. and as a newbie I will try to be more productive.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

do I get it? sooo....

ADHD and ADD are considered the same disorder that manifests in different ways but in the year 2012 ADD and SCT will be considered the same thing? or ADD will be known as SCT from then on??? I don't like 'slugglish' in my diagnosis :/

did I understand correctly??

srry to but in

kinda but from what I read ADHD with hyperactivity and inattentive will be combined type into the same condition, because hyperactivity is a low bases after childhood. and the symptoms between hyperactivity and inattentive are just severity of the came cause. so ur right

However the SCT are less likely to respond to stimulants due to the cause of low norepinephrine (arousal) < bearkly says this may not be the cause but likely a factor in a repraze of words . This group tend to have higher rates of learning disability.


SCT is a processing disorder NOT inhibition LIKE adhd, so it is very likey in my view to be classified in as a separate disorder with in ADHD. However ADHD is a broad term like dyslexia. From allergies to met addicts can cause adhd, which most people don't know.

They may make small changes in the DSMv5 but who knows. maybe there will be a different treatment in a few years rather than stimulants.

my personal experiences with stimulants is that there was no differences.
But at the time in may have led to my depression or had it.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm sorry but I think we're failing to communicate here somehow. None of the references provided appears to make any mention, whether direct or implied, of *temporal* lobe functioning being involved in SCT. But I thank you for your thoughtful response nonetheless.

bradd

PS: You mention you have Audio Processing Disorder. Though this is not the same thing as SCT, it is one of the disorders which often co-occurs with SCT (as well as ADHD-C, etc.) Indeed Audio Processing Disorder does involve the temporal lobes (e.g. Broca's Area). But again, while it can be a comorbid disorder occurring along side SCT, Audio Processing Disorder is an altogether and distinctly different entity from SCT.

Sure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3d1SwUXMc0
21:55 to so on..
28:30 on learning disability with errors

He explains it very well and the differences with the typical adhd.
-The difference being this condition (sct) is a processing disorder of some sort (selective) and you where right about the parietal lobe thing too. However the problem is caused possibly by low amounts of Norepinephrine (function is arousal). Whatever the cause, memory is impaired. Working and recalling (long term memory) is affected. which may lead to my possible learning disability. since dyslxia is a broad term I fall into its classification. I can read but it is so hard to do because of visual distractions in my head. I linger on one thing then relate it to others and so on. Lose my placing misreading words, constantly. I also suffer from Audio processing disorder (supposedly) but can listen to information nearly at 400 words a min. SO it seems to be something with Working memory.

http://back2basicnutrition.com/?p=1855
http://s4.hubimg.com/u/1124779_f496.jpg
----

I am still reading up so whoever can correct me here please.

I don't feel that SCT and ADHD-inattentive are separate issues.
I rather think they are different places on a continuous scale. The reason for that is that I experience both typical SCT symptoms like the inability to combine processing input with cognitive tasks as typical ADD symptoms like fast thoughts / associations / creativity, no patience for linear thinking, excessive daydreaming etc.

Of course it may be that I have both, but that seems less likely.

I am currently on strattera. I find this drug to work great for sct in addition to anxiety/depression. I am now more attentive in conversations and i feel like my brain has finally woken up. Lemme no if any of you notice similiar results while on strattera.

what about attention to reading and tangential thinking when in class ??

I also have dyslexia, that may be a result of this arousal state thing
Audio processing disorder: too

I tried Strattera for three months because my first psych made me to - she had some sort of "stimulant med phobia". It was an absolute disaster. It made me very sleepy and lose my balance.
The next psych had me try Ritalin first and that had a mixed effect: it worked well on motivation but it also made drowsy. Dexedrine was great: it had a wonderful calming effect. Only problem is that it doesn't improve the input/output problems.

input/output problems, can u describe them please , because I have similar deficits that make it hard to function academically.

Is ur attention directed at the task what about thinking?

currenty not on meds, when I study with concerta my recall is terrible when I have a test. its almost like I can't feel myself.

No. That is not what I was saying at all.

Well okay then..but I have to say that I join this forum like 1 week ago and I didn't read ur previous comments. any ways some where good but that last few really made me think of u as insulting this proposed new condition. (sct) with the med dosage<<< then I went on a tangent, well any ways my fault.

Its nothing about being normal, normal is a objective word. IT could mean a good thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_diagnosed_with_dyslexia
Visual:
http://www.dyslexia-test.com/famous.html
-----------the past is the past----any ways I need ur help---this is my situation

I am on the Verge of seeking meds (psychiatrist) but not sure if I will get them. I had concerta but didn't do anything, so the neurologist stop giving me meds and left me with a piece of paper saying please evaluate and she provided no referrals. so she basically Left me out in the cold...Before this happen I had an EEG but my brain waves didn't indicate ADHD/ADD, so she probably didn't believe me. and she made a comment saying "maybe ur not getting it thats why your trail off.""

Anyways can you tell me ur experience with ur meds? because I am not even sure I can be treated. :(



-------------other information for others aswell-------------
Dyslexia and ADHD connection
http://www.mendeley.com/research/dyslexia-susceptibility-locus-dyx7-linked-dopamine-d4-receptor-drd4-region-chromosome-11p155/

Experts believe that SCT is a completely new disorder
"It has been roughly estimated that the SCT population may make up 30-50% (source?) of the ADHD-PI population and may even help define a completely new disorder.[3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo#cite_note-2)"

Those with SCT symptoms show a qualitatively different kind of attention deficit that is more typical of a true information input-output problem, such as memory retrieval and active working memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory).

ADHDers don't have this issue their brain chemicals are just a bit off maybe evolution at work, might even be a good thing. (IF you want me to explain, ask) bit lazy here.

The DSM-5 is currently trying to classify it either with in ADHD or even a separate disorder.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=22322001

I think that there may be a difference in perception here.

I believe the reference to Wikipedia was used by echo5tango as a source to explain what SCT is for those who do not know - however the response from CF that Wikipedia was not a authoritative resource in psychiatric conditions was made so that readers would see the Wikipedia in the proper light {informative perhaps but not authoritative}.

I do know even in debate communities using Wikipedia is considered a poor source to back up ones presentation because of the nature of the contributions.


OKay next point is:

My questions tp the seperate condition supporters are if inattenve ADD is really a seperate condition:


1)Why would hyperactive ADD traits be replaced by inattentive traits as a person ages

2)Why would the same medication and treatments used for hyperactive and combined ADDers also work for inattentive ADDers as well.

3)Why don't the medication non-responders fall exclusive into the inattentive sub-type as opposed to following the population trend - meaning that most medication non-responder are combined simply because most ADDers are combined - inattentive some time do not respond but the number correlate with the percentage of the ADD population the represent

4)To what benefit is changing the name from ADD-PI to SCT-> Really does it make a difference seeing the conditions respond to the same treatments. :confused:









First of all religion is a banned topic so I can't touch it {this is meant to be funny}

Second of all SCT isn't a proper diagnosis as of this writing { this isn't}

answer your question as to why this SCT idea arouses such a passionate response - seriously there are several possibilities

First reason the SCT raises such passions in those who are not inattentive - because you are basically saying to the rest of us who are not inattentive " We are different from you so you can't be part of our little group, because only "people with purple eyes" belong to this group"

Second reason - reality I see the entire SCT issue as adding confusion to a subject that is murky enough as it is - personally I am looking to simplify not create more confusion.

The third reason will be addressing why some of the respondents are inattentive themselves.

If you will step back for a moment with me in the objective realm - using only the English language as a reference point what are you really saying when you say "SCT is a separate condition" You are saying " we aren't ADD at all"

Some with the inattentive ADD diagnosis do not wish to be separated from the ADD community they now call home - they finally found a place where they belong and frankly those who purpose that inattentive become a separate condition are threating to yank that away from them - which btw would engender strong emotions in those who have searched a life time for a place to belong thus the reason behind the "religious passions"

{so the reasons are really very obvious on many levels okay they are for me - well so much for hyperactive ADDers being unable to have insight -shrug}

I do hope my post helps answer as many question as it generates- :)

-------------------------------------------------------

I agree with some of ur comments however I am apart of this mess
Hyper and inattentive I heard will be combine type (correct me if I am wrong)

SCT is not referring to ADHD-Pi, seems to be a different disorder. and may not even be ADHD.

this may help u
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=22322001

hoping for ur replies to explain

I'm sorry but I think we're failing to communicate here somehow. None of the references provided appears to make any mention, whether direct or implied, of *temporal* lobe functioning being involved in SCT. But I thank you for your thoughtful response nonetheless.

bradd

PS: You mention you have Audio Processing Disorder. Though this is not the same thing as SCT, it is one of the disorders which often co-occurs with SCT (as well as ADHD-C, etc.) Indeed Audio Processing Disorder does involve the temporal lobes (e.g. Broca's Area). But again, while it can be a comorbid disorder occurring along side SCT, Audio Processing Disorder is an altogether and distinctly different entity from SCT.


--------------------------------------------------

Your welcome

Its been kinda hard finding the articles to be honest but if you understand what the temporal lobe function it may help you understand, wiki it.

APD (miss-interpretation's) and dyslexia (LD) my severity of these two conditions are not so sever. Its like I have a processing disorder of some sort that leads me to interpretation's and have reading problems. I can read but not spell. In which I have these two seemingly different conditions but related.

These are all result of poor working memory and revival problems. which is the conditions fits almost perfectly in SCT and to me.


Adjacent areas in the superior, posterior and lateral parts of the temporal lobes are involved in high-level auditory processing. In humans this includes speech, for which the left temporal lobe in particular seems to be specialized. Wernicke's area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernicke%27s_area), which spans the region between temporal and parietal lobes, plays a key role (in tandem with Broca's area, which is in the frontal lobe). The functions of the left temporal lobe are not limited to low-level perception but extend to comprehension, naming, verbal memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_memory) and other language functions.

SCT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo

Hope that helps

I didn't save the links I was reading, but some key words to search for on wikipedia and google are: electrotonic coupling, neural populations, neural encoding, and of course - modafinil.

I'm also curious how many of you have a few of the following symptoms (which aren't often discussed, but could be relevant given the brain structures involved in ADHD-PI/SCT and the symptoms):
Lack of sense of smell
Lack of emotions/feelings (ie not strongly felt or not often)
Tendency to not drink or eat, even though you might be thirsty/hungry (ie. you recognize your body is calling for food/water, but you just aren't really driven to address the issue. For instance, I will skip meals or not get up to get a glass of water just because... i'm not sure why, it isn't that I'm THAT lazy or I don't think I need it).


I can't smell that well and my emotions are there but all over the place.
In high school all I ate was dinner no breakfast and ran track on top of that. its very interesting you say that. Although I love to eat, every hour I eat now that I am not in high school. BUt I exercise like every day for 30 mins or so doing (jogging), to not gain wait.

I don't know what I'm going to do with my life, having these limitations. I feel everyone on here functions much better than I do. It makes me wonder if my SCT is compounded with a low IQ.

One area I excelled at was drawing and other visual arts. Unlike other activities I could do it hours on end. Growing up, I didn't know anyone else that outdid in me in that area. Maybe I should pursue it again, as it might be the only way to escape my mediocrity.

Dude I am somewhat skilled at art but more creative than normal (not really). meaning that I can't draw like real stuff but draw freely out of my head. and there seems to be a correlation with drawing trees and flowers only, so I never learned to go beyond that skill level.

Listen if U really have SCT or maybe not, you may still have Attention problems regardless of of meeting the criteria for ADHD. tell ur primary doctor about experiencing trouble academically he may refer u to specialist, who will likely find the cause. I wish I had done this sooner, now I am seeing a psychiatrist.

----------------------------
When I was small my dad told me to think of a dice to learn how to count.
which every time I want to count there is a dice in my head.for example:adding 23 + 9
I say the # 23 in my head the 6 side pops up I count from there and then I just count three more. Although this thing is much faster it build-ed due to usage. (i don't see it very visually but I can see it in my own way)
if it wasn't for imagining I would be lost. in my head its outer structure then come details. (i know this is useless in a way but I find it helps)

I have a LD (dyslexia) aswell so I do understand ur pain.
When I was small I got hit for not being able to read by the teacher. and when I did math problems I would copy them wrong. I have memories of the teacher hitting me because I was staring at the board, rather than her. I learned to read at the age of 12 where I just understood what the word mean without being able to spell. so keeping at it, because the brain can adapt quite a bit, I remember the day I said to myself, just learn word for word. you know what everyday I just kept learning and so on. now I can read at college level or better. but still fail to spell and readout loud.

ART is rare to be recognized and is so competitive.
try online personality quiz to see jobs in the future u may like.
I get things like Scientist, teacher, but in reality I suck really bad academically. But these are thing I really want to do.

http://www.personalitytest.net/types/descriptions/intj.htm
mines

Test and post me urs okay:)

Hope I have helped you out a bit...I know its not much but its all i can offer with the web..srry I am just all over the place.

http://www.personalitytest.net/types/index.htm Take the test! (http://www.personalitytest.net/cgi-bin/q.pl)





(http://www.personalitytest.net/cgi-bin/q.pl)

I see you are the one arguing for a role of the temporal lobes in SCT, and I think also conflating SCT with language-oriented LD's, etc. That explains why I couldn't find any reference to this claim in the literature. But I'm not here to argue with anyone or even necessarily express personal agreement/disagreement; only discuss and possibly -despite what on the surface to me what appears to me to be some confusion- nevertheless to try to learn something from others. So much has been learned by scientists in recent decades about the brain, but so much more remains to be understood.

Bradd


--------------------------------------------------

Your welcome

Its been kinda hard finding the articles to be honest but if you understand what the temporal lobe function it may help you understand, wiki it.

APD (miss-interpretation's) and dyslexia (LD) my severity of these two conditions are not so sever. Its like I have a processing disorder of some sort that leads me to interpretation's and have reading problems. I can read but not spell. In which I have these two seemingly different conditions but related.

These are all result of poor working memory and revival problems. which is the conditions fits almost perfectly in SCT and to me.


Adjacent areas in the superior, posterior and lateral parts of the temporal lobes are involved in high-level auditory processing. In humans this includes speech, for which the left temporal lobe in particular seems to be specialized. Wernicke's area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernicke%27s_area), which spans the region between temporal and parietal lobes, plays a key role (in tandem with Broca's area, which is in the frontal lobe). The functions of the left temporal lobe are not limited to low-level perception but extend to comprehension, naming, verbal memory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_memory) and other language functions.

SCT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo

Hope that helps

I see you are the one arguing for a role of the temporal lobes in SCT, and I think also conflating SCT with language-oriented LD's, etc. That explains why I couldn't find any reference to this claim in the literature. But I'm not here to argue with anyone or even necessarily express personal agreement/disagreement; only discuss and possibly -despite what on the surface to me what appears to me to be some confusion- nevertheless to try to learn something from others. So much has been learned by scientists in recent decades about the brain, but so much more remains to be understood.

Bradd

True..I have been researching my LD and with attention issues for the last year and a half and I think SCT holds a lot more promises than any other disorder I have came across. although i am a bit bummed about treatment response.


Thank you for responding :)http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gifhttp://www.addforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think this is what I have. It's not that I don't want to be social, or have casual conversations, it's just that it's damn nearly impossible for me.
I don't like SCT, anyone have any success so far against SCT?!? :confused:


You may have social anxiety too, don't worry its very common.
just keep practicing

<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title -->Wow, after randomly falling on this SCT subject on wiki, and then finding this topic, I never really thought I had a disorder, but SCT fits me so well, it's hard to ignore.

Ever since elementry school I've always had a motivational problem with
are too strong to ignore.


-------------------------------------------
Elementary school I was always in my head and struggle to pay attention. I never had any behavior issues,its just that I rarely paid attention.
I always wanted to do good in school but never had the motivation, and to this day college I am having the same issues. I am good in math and science but my motivation to learn so many things like reading on top of this is just too hard because when I read, I start thinking of something else. and in math I go blank and have to restart to understand the problem.
Scter tend to have LD or problems with errors due to processing isssues, like reading, I consider myself dyslexic, because its just such a hard task to comeplete without thinking of somethin else.

I can relate with you on this level, I am good at math and understanding concepts but I have a problem with using the information I learned or the mental arousal to do it. I tend to intellectualize everything in my head or daydream, which relaxes me. I also good at social stiutaions but sometimes I try to be consideratie, which u have to do to get along with people. I Learn alot by what people say so even if I get bored I learn something new.

I am usally mental tired with task like reading but when it comes to anything physcial I can do it. I like running and my best in the 400 meter is 59 sec. (just for show) I also jog for 20 mins or so i n my house every day.
I have a lot of deficts like audio and processing speed. the only thing that is normal is by spatial abilities.


Well its nice hearing ur story...thanks for posting

I'd really like to hear what augments help inattentive adhd in combination with stimulants. I've looked and from what I have found in my opinion overfocused adhd and inattentive are one of the same. Overfocused being the aftermath of frustrated inattentive ... Well that's my hybrid atleast. I would think intuniv or something like that would be of benefit. Currently , I have experienced a big help with ssri' eliminating these worry thoughts in inattentives but its not at all obsessive, it's just stuck in thought and I feel that ssri's aggravate adhd and demotivate more than help.

I found out about this disorder yesterday and believe that I have a lot of the attentional problems listed here. I have had academic success as a PhD student and programmer. Since I have been programming since a child, I may have been receiving working memory exercise that helped me to deal with this problem more effectively. My working memory is pretty good if I'm programming or thinking through a problem, but I have difficulty focusing many other times (especially during conversations). I think the problem is following the line of thought of others. I can keep track of my own thoughts well, but it can be more difficult to think the same way others do. I often prefer to reason things out in writing, that way I can re-check the logic. Maybe being able to see the information lets me overcome the working memory problem. I received a perfect math score on the GRE, but I often have difficulty doing simple arithmetic in my head. I was able to do well on the GRE by working even simple arithmetic out on paper. Variables seem to present much less of a problem. My personal feeling is that SCT may not be that bad of a thing. Answers do come more slowly, but in math or science you may actually come up with a better answer by doing it the slow way! I would like to see someone go through the history books and determine which famous historical figures may have had SCT.

Does anyone else with this disorder have similar experience in academia or computer programming?

..I think it was the combination of both alcohol and coke that made me very social. Because I did try coke another two times a bit later on, and it didn't have the same effect.

I have experienced this also. It turns out that when cocaine and alcohol are mixed, they produce a new drug called cocaethylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaethylene) which is more than just the sum of their effects. Cocaine alone has no effect on me, but combined with alcohol it is very powerful.


Lack of emotions/feelings (ie not strongly felt or not often)
Tendency to not drink or eat, even though you might be thirsty/hungry (ie. you recognize your body is calling for food/water, but you just aren't really driven to address the issue. For instance, I will skip meals or not get up to get a glass of water just because... i'm not sure why, it isn't that I'm THAT lazy or I don't think I need it).

I also have both of these symptoms, particularly with thirst. I am often dehydrated because I don't feel like drinking water. I am really amazed that someone else has this problem too. This symptom is made worse by psychedelic drugs..

I find it interesting that I have been on bupropion for years to treat depression, but this is also used to treat ADHD (maybe I was using it to treat the wrong disorder!). I am now wondering if I would be better off on methylphenidate or amphetamine.

I've been told that I have no emotions either. Anyway I am 100% sure I have SCT and I also have a sex addiction and am wondering if they are related. Well not really a sex addiction but an addiction to masturbation. Does anyone else with SCT have this too or is it just a whole different problem?

This is total bunk. It's not that easy and they are nimit separate. ADHD is a bit of both and every situation varies. No two people are the same, and stimulants help both.

Hi guys, if you think or know that you have SCT try this as i believe it might help.
i) Go see your doctor and make sure you don't have any vitamin deficiencies. Check all your vitamins especially b1-b12 and check the levels of minerals like iron zinc etc. Check your thyroid as well and make sure everything is in the healthy range.
ii) Make sure you exercise and get in some high intensity cardio every day
iii) Finally, give up masturbation.

I have SCT and I am going to try this. From research that I have done, these can all be problems that are magnifying our add symptoms.
Try all of these for 2 months with me. After 2 months if you don't see a drastic improvement in memory/concentration problems I'll be surprised. I truly believe this will help.

Hello everyone.
I was diagnosed ADHD, depression, and social anxiety. I happened to watch Dr.Russell Barkley's video on youtube and I noticed the criteria of SCT describes me pretty well, better than ADHD critera. I googled SCT and found this thread and I was in all tears. I found out a lot of people around the world actually have the same patterns in their lives. I am not alone. I have seen about 6 doctors and finally found a good one to diagnose me ADHD. I am taking-

Aderall-60mg (the first time I felt like the weird "sickness" has been treated. It helps getting rid of majority part of sluggishness, better motivation to "initiate" myself, better alertness which helps driving and maybe slightly better attention when I study and read. However It wore off a bit after first week. Eventually it offers modest to moderate level of help)

Wellbutrin-300mg (It helps me stabillize my mood slghtly. Every little bit help matters)

abilify-10mg (My doctor prescribed it to stabilize my mood. I feel like more motivation to do things and not afraid to go to school. I think I get rid off my depression)

These are medicine that I am responsive to even before diagnosed ADHD. Have tried Strettera 60mg but no response at all, neither positive nor negative. I plan to discuss SCT with my doctor but...so what? there is no medicine designed for SCT. Well, at least now I know what happens to me, I am not just a lazy or no motivation person.
btw,I suspect the cause (mostly genetics)of ADHD and SCT are intertwined. Because I have 2 niece both have ADHD-hyperactive type and 1 niece with ADHD-inattentive type. But SCT deserves to be distinctly labeled due to amount of difference. I dont want someone else to be diagnosed healthy and spend 10 years and 6 doctors to find out this thing.

Also might want to try www.amenclinic.com (http://www.amenclinic.com) : under self tests there is a "brain stem" (or something like that) test.

another site is Http://www.add101.com/types.htm (http://www.add101.com/types.htm)

Granted, please remember these are both only tools to possibly assist your doctor... but there is some interesting information on these sites.

Enjoy


My result from Amenclinic.com

Impulsive-Compulsive-Sad-Anxious

People with this type struggle with feelings of anxiety and depression, poor impulse control, and compulsive tendencies. People with this type have trouble shifting their attention and tend to get stuck on anxious or depressing thoughts, thoughts of food, or compulsive behaviors. They tend to struggle with problems with attention span, forethought, impulse control, organization, motivation, and planning. They may start each day with good intentions, but when feelings of anxiety, depression, boredom, loneliness, low self-esteem, tension, nervousness, fear, panic, self-doubt, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, or worthlessness come up they have trouble controlling their behavior and tend to use food or other substances to medicate their feelings. They may also suffer physical symptoms of anxiety as well, such as muscle tension, nail biting, headaches, abdominal pain, heart palpitations, shortness of breath, and sore muscles. People with this type also tend to hold grudges and have problems with oppositional or argumentative behavior.

The most common brain SPECT findings for this type include:
decreased activity in the PFC, which is commonly associated with low brain dopamine and norepinephrine levels
increased activity in the anterior cingulate gyrus, which is commonly caused by low brain serotonin levels
increased activity in the deep limbic areas of the brain
overactivity in the basal ganglia, which is commonly associated with low GABA levels

Recommends:
Dr. Daniel Amen's Nutraceutical Package: Craving Control plus Focus and Energy Optimizer and GABA Calming Support.

Maybe a higher dosage... The studies suggest we don't have the same success rate with meds. Try a different stim or even lower your dose. :eek: Research would back up both approaches.
-----
-----

I've been thinking some more about those points.
- does not equate with this ->

I am often self conscious in one on one discussions. My eyes only feel confomfortable in holding a gaze with children or people that I generally love. It's not an issue of shyness because this can happen with people that I am familiar with. And it comes on like a wave...sometimes things are okay and then I feel very akward.

...and why the problem with long term memory? Does that really have anything to do with Active Working memory?


I realize I'm commenting 5 years later.... lol..

But this sounds like me also.. besides the self conscious and often withdrawn... I very rarely make eye contact with anyone, unless I make a conscious effort to do so in a certain situation, and that is rare.

After I started college and started going out to bars (drinking weekly) I FORCED myself a little bit here and there to just be more talkative/outgoing.. but it didn't happen all the time, and it still doesn't.

I got the same result but that doesnt describe me too much.

I got the same result but that doesnt describe me too much.

I'm curious about this Sluggish Cognitive Tempo, the little I've read says it's probably another subtype of ADD, could be combined with PI type also.. But that it has not been researched yet enough. This actually describes me even better or as well as PI, with some hyper/impulsive tendencies.
Even more, this is very much what my mother is like - but my father is a textbook ADDer in denial, with his 50 jobs in 17 years married to my mother alone..

Item "iii)" is interesting in that you would mention it. Myself, due to spiritual/religious reasons I succeeded in overcoming this habit in my mid twenties (about 25 years ago). I was glad to be free of this habit, but I don't recall any improvement in my ADD/SCT struggles after.

bradd

PS: (FYI: I didn't know back then about ADD/SCT; only that I had this frustrating and inexplicable daily struggle, which only in recent years has received a definitive medical diagnosis; one which -to my initial surprise- it turned out is called AD/HD-Innattentive.)

Hi guys, if you think or know that you have SCT try this as i believe it might help.
i) Go see your doctor and make sure you don't have any vitamin deficiencies. Check all your vitamins especially b1-b12 and check the levels of minerals like iron zinc etc. Check your thyroid as well and make sure everything is in the healthy range.
ii) Make sure you exercise and get in some high intensity cardio every day
iii) Finally, give up masturbation.

I have SCT and I am going to try this. From research that I have done, these can all be problems that are magnifying our add symptoms.
Try all of these for 2 months with me. After 2 months if you don't see a drastic improvement in memory/concentration problems I'll be surprised. I truly believe this will help.

Hey everyone,

I just came across this thread and haven't even come close to reading everything. I did find some interesting posts and will be reading when I get home. However I did want to share that I firmly believe I have SCT and/or ADHD-PI.

I've tried Vyvanse, Focalin, Phentermine, and Intuniv without success. Phentermine was about as close to success as I could get. The first day I was able to focus better and had more energy, every day after that I didn't feel the effects, even upping the dosage. A side effect occurred where I couldn't sleep for 2 days straight... which I stopped taking it immediately.

However what I do want to share are two moments in my life where I could think clearly and recognize my true personality. Once, while taking 'shrooms' and the other while on weed. For whatever reason the combination and elements in those situations was like experiencing a miracle... no joke (i've taken both of them several times afterwards without feeling 'normal' again). The feeling is ASTOUNDING! I could recognize my true potential for life! I'm a musician at heart. I could hear full symphonies in my head! My friends with me at the time stood there astonished at what they were hearing me play. Conversations with my friends were at my full potential. I could anticipate what I was about to tell someone. I could choose what type of emotion I wanted to instill into that person. (Make them laugh, cry, be insightful, etc.). This 'normalcy' only lasted for about 1-2 hours in both situations. I've not experienced a moment like this in several years... but both my friends and I remember these moments vividly.

I will never stop searching for a cure/answer. But unfortunately my SCT and /or ADHD-PI are equivalent to me being in a sinking sand bit. I take a step forward but move primarily back to the same position.

Thank you so much for reading,
I will be posting more soon.
Brandon

The more post I read here the more connected and @ home at I feel.
To musiclife, U will find it, Don't ever give up.
I too am on a journey to find time when I used to see life for just what it is, instead of analyzing or worrying about everything. Every now and then I get the sensation or just get a glimpse but it goes away pretty quickly. but for that moment, I fell happy, know exactly what i have to do and dont have to over think anything. In conversation, i was right there, Sometimes the Leader of the pack. WOW, what a feeling!

Ritalin helped a lot initially, but the tolerance level build up very quickly and i could see where that was going. So i now, I remember what those moments felt like and try to mimic that in reality.
I tell musiclife, so far so good man.... Learn... apply and adapt. I Seeing those moments more often and it feels SOOO GOOOOD!:)

Extremely interesting thread, I have just read through all of it (ok, I skipped some posts here and there, but looked through all 28 pages!) and it was quite interesting and helped me understand SCT and its possible 'solutions' better.

Personally, I have been on Ritalin since August 2011. At first I was pleased with the results, as it did help waking up in the morning, keeping my room clean and actually filling in forms and paying bills. However, after a while I started disliking the continuous ups and downs throughout the day more and more, and have noticed myself getting more antisocial. Moreover, ever since using Ritalin, whenever it has worn off I am noticing ADHD symptoms I did not have before, most notably racing thoughts but also a general feeling of restless uneasiness. For these reasons, I have currently stopped using Ritalin on a daily basis, and only use it for situations where I really feel I need it, and even then only 2,5 or 5mg at a time.

Currently I am on the supplements-track others have mentioned. I feel if I can get a combination of these working, even if only at half the effectiveness of Ritalin, it will be worth it. So far Ive been trying acetyl-l-carnitine (alcar), l-carnosine and fishoil. Results after +/- 10 days:

- The alcar seems to help some, although by itself it certainly isnt enough. I do feel more 'together' and focussed than Ive done in a while, and I suspect that if I find the right dosage and accompanying supplements it will be worth its cost

- The l-carnosine hasnt had much of a discernible effect for me, except for possibly enhancing my endurance for cardio excersizes. However, I havent really dedicatedly tested the l-carnosine on its own, I'll get around to that somewhere in the near future.

- The fish oil may have a slightly positive effect on overall wellbeing, but marginally at best. However, I have recently learned that the fishoil I bought is of fairly low quality (low EPA percentage, and low EPA to DHA ratio). Better quality fishoil may provide more noticable results.

I plan on getting some b-complex vitamines next week, as this feels like the current missing link in my setup, and perhaps I'll give l-tyrosine a try at some point. So far atleast, the first results are positive although not shocking by any means. But I feel that with some more tweaking the route of supplements can be a worthwhile approach for battling ADD/SCT, and one without any significant drawbacks.

I'll keep you updated on my findings.

The more post I read here the more connected and @ home at I feel.
To musiclife, U will find it, Don't ever give up.
I too am on a journey to find time when I used to see life for just what it is, instead of analyzing or worrying about everything. Every now and then I get the sensation or just get a glimpse but it goes away pretty quickly. but for that moment, I fell happy, know exactly what i have to do and dont have to over think anything. In conversation, i was right there, Sometimes the Leader of the pack. WOW, what a feeling!

Ritalin helped a lot initially, but the tolerance level build up very quickly and i could see where that was going. So i now, I remember what those moments felt like and try to mimic that in reality.
I tell musiclife, so far so good man.... Learn... apply and adapt. I Seeing those moments more often and it feels SOOO GOOOOD!:)

Wow! This is EXACTLY like me!!!

I'm hunting that feeling desperately...sometimes things happen that give me the feeling, but it's so ephemeral, I actually feel like it's Deja Vu 2 seconds after it happened, like somehow it has already written itself in long term memory because I don't have short term or something of the sort...

Sometimes I have "that feeling" in dreams, and feel buzzed when I wake up...I figure it's because of the total lack of inhibitions in dreams, but I don't know...it's too hard to latch on to it for more than an hour though, but damn it feels good to just "be there" while it lasts. Be it pain, pride or fun, plain reality itself is a delicacy I am chasing...I'm tired of needing cold, timeless, internal logic to understand anything cognitively...

Hope the amphetamines help a bit...I'm gonna try those soon...Someone said on this forum lately that all his thought became clear when he tried them...

Wow! This is EXACTLY like me!!!

I'm hunting that feeling desperately...sometimes things happen that give me the feeling, but it's so ephemeral, I actually feel like it's Deja Vu 2 seconds after it happened, like somehow it has already written itself in long term memory because I don't have short term or something of the sort...

Sometimes I have "that feeling" in dreams, and feel buzzed when I wake up...I figure it's because of the total lack of inhibitions in dreams, but I don't know...it's too hard to latch on to it for more than an hour though, but damn it feels good to just "be there" while it lasts. Be it pain, pride or fun, plain reality itself is a delicacy I am chasing...I'm tired of needing cold, timeless, internal logic to understand anything cognitively...

Hope the amphetamines help a bit...I'm gonna try those soon...Someone said on this forum lately that all his thought became clear when he tried them...

Also dont forget there are new promissing drugs, like VYVANSE, im hearing about. suppose to work very well with little to no side effects. Coping, Educating and natural herbs all are options to help. My technique has been a combinations of all the above I mentioned. Sometimes I try to let loose on my own. Have littlle sucess here and there, But doesnt compare when im on the Drug. Thats Ok thus, My sucess is measured ONE NEW STEP AT A TIME.....:)

Also dont forget there are new promissing drugs, like VYVANSE, im hearing about. suppose to work very well with little to no side effects. Coping, Educating and natural herbs all are options to help. My technique has been a combinations of all the above I mentioned. Sometimes I try to let loose on my own. Have littlle sucess here and there, But doesnt compare when im on the Drug. Thats Ok thus, My sucess is measured ONE NEW STEP AT A TIME.....:)

I don't mean to direct any of the following in any way towards your post itself. Just what it happned to remind me of:

When I read about *new promising drugs, like Vyvanse* out comes the cynical side in me. Why? Vyvanse is nothing but old d-amphetamine (i.e. Dexedrine) that's chemically locked to another molecule to form a a neutral substance; in a molecule that won't fall apart and thereby release the active ingredient until some protracted time after oral ingestion when it is processed by the liver. What is the rationale for this? Not more effectiveness or lesser side effects for the patient in need: just the prevention of potential criminal diversion of the d-amphetamine in Vyvanse towards clandestine uses. As one who would never even joke about doing something so irresponsible with my own Dexedrine medication, as to misuse or abuse it for "kicks" (which I don't think would even possible in my case, since these drugs do not at all produce in my experience the "legendary" high or "false feeling of well being" that is so consistently described in literature and lore as something to fear and rail and rant against) much less divert it to some street scum for distribution to others looking for cheap kicks. I'm a little bit bitter that emphasis is not being placed on developing/bringing more *robustly effective* medications for those of us who realistically need potent -while at the same time *less mood unfriendly*- pharmaceutical alternatives (and/or at the very least, valuable pharmaceutical *adjunctives* taylored to, both, enhance and tame standard stimulant treatments).

bradd

What have been your experiences when disclosing your SCT suspicions to your psychiatrists? Is it a term most of them have heard of? Were they willing to work around the symptoms you described, or were they adamant about treating you based on your official diagnosis? I'm going to take in some literature on SCT to my next appointment in case he isn't familiar with it. Is it true that some psychiatrists become upset when the patients suggest medications?

hi,

What have been your experiences when disclosing your SCT suspicions to your psychiatrists? Is it a term most of them have heard of?

I just mentioned this to the psych that I am talking with. She has not heard of it, and I offered to look up some articles about it and hand that on.

So far, I've been treated on my ADHD - inattentive diagnosis alone, and the medication for that (dextroamphetamine) still works pretty well, though not for all symptoms: it's great for making my thoughts more clear and my head more quiet. And I have definitely become a lot better in finishing things.

But my organisational skills are still non-existent; I still am very bad processing verbal information (meetings!) and also, the medication does seem to make me slightly more sensitive to light and sound.

Actually, she has suggested that we look into the medication some or other time soon. But I doubt whether it can really be improved, especially since the range of available medications is a lot more limited here (I'm extremely lucky to finally have gotten hold on long-acting dextroamphetamine after nearly three years on short-acting (5 times a day) meds complete with oftentimes forgetting to take it, hence frequent rebounds, etc. etc....)


Were they willing to work around the symptoms you described, or were they adamant about treating you based on your official diagnosis? I'm going to take in some literature on SCT to my next appointment in case he isn't familiar with it.

Good idea.

Is it true that some psychiatrists become upset when the patients suggest medications?

I think the docs here are "quite open for suggestions"; but it really depends. The first psych that I saw back in Canada (Victoria, BC) was definitely not amused when I even dared to raise the subject of stimulant medication. She probably thought that I was an undercover junk or something.
But the more intelligent, reasonable psychiatrists / docs will certainly listen. I'd say that if a doc becomes upset when you suggest anything, it's time to stand up, thank them for their time and look for another doc. But it depends on whether that's even possible at all, of course.

What have been your experiences when disclosing your SCT suspicions to your psychiatrists? Is it a term most of them have heard of? Were they willing to work around the symptoms you described, or were they adamant about treating you based on your official diagnosis? I'm going to take in some literature on SCT to my next appointment in case he isn't familiar with it. Is it true that some psychiatrists become upset when the patients suggest medications?

I self diagnose and suggest medications all the time. But I have to admit that my psychiatrist is a pretty cool guy, so this may not be a typical reaction. I'll give him a suggestion, and then he will tell me why he thinks it's worth a try or not. Or, he may tell me that he wants to try something else first, and that he will consider my suggestion if his idea doesn't work.

The psychologist who diagnosed me didn't put SCT on my official diagnosis (since it's not officially a diagnosis). However, he apparently talked to me about SCT while discussing his diagnosis with me. After stumbling across the term on the internet, I was all excited about it and emailed him. He responded with "Yeah...I mentioned that during our session. I believe that's what you have". Which is kind of funny to me.

I found a newer Barkley video in which he says that he's pretty sure now that SCT is a different attention disorder. It is not a subtype of ADHD-PI. For you to have ADHD, it must've started in childhood, and you should have had hyperactivity symptoms. Then, with age, you slowly lose more and more hyperactivity symptoms and you move to ADHD-C, then a few years later you move to ADHD-PI. SCT does not seem to decline with age like ADHD does.

Barkley also noted that SCT seems to overlap with ADHD, according to one of the slides: "54% of cases of ADHD have SCT, especially if diagnosed with the Predominantly Inattentive Type".

Here's the video (it's an excerpt from a workshop): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t7X6uhgB4E
Here're the slides: http://jkseminars.com/handouts/B1111.pdf

I recommend reading the slides, as they give more information on the disorder.

Its fascinating. Thank you.

It's good to see some of the former ambiguity (e.g. is it ADHD-PI or SCT?) being cleared away. It's also good to see that researchers are seeing the degree to which SCT symptoms seriously impair an individual's quality-of-life, and by implication the -heretofore unrecognized- need to develop SCT specific clinical interventions.

Sct as an escape/avoidant mechanism??( on the slides) Thats interesting.

Sounds more like me though...completely like me...
Processing speed most particularly. I have been looking for foods that enhance processing speeds due to my lack of brain processing speed.

Sct as an escape/avoidant mechanism??( on the slides) Thats interesting.

Note what the slide is saying. SCT involves mind-wandering. The slide in question lists known potential sources for mind-wandering in general [i.e. as known to occur in other conditions/settings]. These are presented merely as theoretical options for researchers to think about and investigate in relation to the [yet to be determined] source of mind-wandering seen with SCT.

hi,



I just mentioned this to the psych that I am talking with. She has not heard of it, and I offered to look up some articles about it and hand that on.

So far, I've been treated on my ADHD - inattentive diagnosis alone, and the medication for that (dextroamphetamine) still works pretty well, though not for all symptoms: it's great for making my thoughts more clear and my head more quiet. And I have definitely become a lot better in finishing things.

But my organisational skills are still non-existent; I still am very bad processing verbal information (meetings!) and also, the medication does seem to make me slightly more sensitive to light and sound.

Actually, she has suggested that we look into the medication some or other time soon. But I doubt whether it can really be improved, especially since the range of available medications is a lot more limited here (I'm extremely lucky to finally have gotten hold on long-acting dextroamphetamine after nearly three years on short-acting (5 times a day) meds complete with oftentimes forgetting to take it, hence frequent rebounds, etc. etc....)



Good idea.



I think the docs here are "quite open for suggestions"; but it really depends. The first psych that I saw back in Canada (Victoria, BC) was definitely not amused when I even dared to raise the subject of stimulant medication. She probably thought that I was an undercover junk or something.
But the more intelligent, reasonable psychiatrists / docs will certainly listen. I'd say that if a doc becomes upset when you suggest anything, it's time to stand up, thank them for their time and look for another doc. But it depends on whether that's even possible at all, of course.
Luthien,

About the information processing problems, which I understand to be working memory deficits, a fellow SCT person has had some success with nootropics. He takes Noopept 10-15mg with 250mg Citicholine. I'm going to give this a go along with a low dose of Dexadrine (if I can get my psych to prescribe it - difficult in the UK!)

Have you tried nootropics before?

I wonder if you share my frustrations with verbal recall?

CTYankee,

I tried Strattera recently for about 3/4 months after getting it prescribed eventually by my psychiatrist (I'm UK based too and had to go private as the NHS waiting lists are long). I stopped taking it recently without telling my psych, and thank heavens I did. I found it to be a mixed experience. Its a bit difficult to put myself back into the state I was in to report the effectiveness without reading my journal, which is not stimulating enough a task at the moment (!), but I'll try my best:

PROS

Oh my, what a relief when I first took it. It calmed my mind from distracting thoughts and made everything peaceful. I have both ADHD and SCT (I believe they are two separate attentive disorders with co morbidity) and it helped with the ADHD side well. Less distraction and a calmer mind meant more productivity and less mental fog, I have to admit.

I suppose the calmer, more zen like, mind state did help with the SCT side of things too. More clarity, less dreamy and more involved with life generally. It helped me with work and social involvement which I find difficult with SCT due to info processing difficulty.

I'd summarise in saying that it put my mind/life back together so that I could do the things I wanted to do. It helped with executive functioning...so I'd say YES it helps SCT. Now here is the drawback,

CONS

My god, it was slow and subtle but everything became so sad! I didnt understand. The med helped me to get back to work, go out with friends, meet women and have sex again but it was difficult to gain enjoyment from these activities. Depression. I've had a couple of previous experiences of depression and this was a reminder. It was strange to feel so sad without any reason to be- at least when i was depressed before I knew it was because I had lost something. In this case- everything was going great. I was gaining not losing, yet there was this sadness! Anyway, one day I missed a dose and everything lightened up again and I realised it had been the med. So I'm off it.

The good thing is it helped get my life back together enough so that when I stopped it I was in a better, less worrisome place and so the ADHD stuff isn't so bad and the thoughts that distract me now are positive. However, the SCT stuff is back.

I wont be trying it again - plus despite functioning, there was no 'alive' feeling that I hope (so much) I will get from some Dexadrine (and maybe Tyrosine, as you say)

By the way, I've also had some success with a product called Neuro Optimiser which contains Acetyl Carnitine and ALA and other stuff.

Can you tell me if you mentioned SCT to your psych? I'm wondering whether to talk to my psych here or whether to just carry on for ADHD-I treatment. I'm thinking that if I talk to him about SCT he might try Dexadrine with me, but if I talk about ADHD I then he might want to try Ritalin first. And from people's experiences, this does not work. How long did it take for you to get treated properly on the NHS. Any info would be greatly appreciated, I'm having a tough time being heard and treated properly (mostly due to the SCT disorganisation!)

Update:

As stated previously (partially, anyway), my diagnosis (by a UK NHS psychiatrist) is ADHD-PI, and I take 10mg once a day of IR Dexedrine, with good effect. There's a lot in this SCT stuff that resonates with me, so I've self-diagnosed myself as being substantially "SCT-positive." I'm rarely hyperactive, I can sit stock still for an 11-hour long-haul flight (in fact, long flights are often a peak experience for me), and I don't forget my car keys, ever (but I do have piles all over the house). My problem is that I don't naturally or routinely feel as awake and alive and alert and energetic and motivated and mentally resourceful as I want to feel.

New information:

Tyrosine -- I continue to find that 500mg of l-tyrosine (Holland & Barrett brand) clears the cobwebs like nothing else and provides noticeable mental energy. My psychiatrist insists that this is a placebo effect as l-tyrosine is not, he says, the limiting co-factor in the production of something or other . He's entitled to his opinion, but I'll stick with the stuff. It works best if I don't take it every day and if I take it in the morning (an empty stomach helps but isn't necessary) and it goes extremely well with a double espresso, that stack providing a "brightness" of consciousness not readily duplicated by other means. My "go-to" regimen, in fact, has become: Part 1) a.m., coffee and tyrosine, followed 4-5 hours later by Part 2) p.m., 10mg of dexedrine. For me, ingesting coffee and dex at the same time results, usually, in rapid heartbeat and feelings of nausea.

[B]Methylphenidate -- Yowza! Having luck with Dexedrine over the past half year, I said to my doc maybe I could experiment with something else, just to see about fine-tuning. His offer was 7 caplets (7 days' worth) of Concerta 36mg, which is an XR (extended release) compound of methylphenidate (Ritalin). He advised me to stay off the dex for two days before starting the Concerta, which I did. Yesterday I tried the Concerta, and my goodness what a wasted day ensued. It turned me into a zombie (to use a word employed by others in these forums to describe a similar state). The mood was pleasant, but I was lethargic and sleepy and drugged, like someone had slipped me a mickey. I went out to walk around in the spring sunshine and could barely get to the post office and back without falling down, falling into traffic or falling asleep. I felt like a total space ape. Six hours after taking the pill, when its effects were noticeably diminished but still present, I took a 20-minute nap followed by a triple espresso; that basically killed the drowsiness and lethargy and allowed for a productive evening.

Lastly, recently I ran across this article about SCT and treatment for it: http://www.articlealley.com/article_1984406_17.html

The source of the article is unclear, but the information it contains was provocative. Russell Barkley does seem to be The Man on this subject, though I guess his focus is on kids more than adults, so most of his pronouncements require interpretation and guesswork. The article says some practitioners suggest Atomoxetine (Strattera) or Guanfacine (Tenex) -- the latter I'd not heard of before -- as the drug treatments of choice for SCT. Anyone had any particular luck with either of these? I'd be curious to know of your experience.
CTYankee,

I tried Strattera recently for about 3/4 months after getting it prescribed eventually by my psychiatrist (I'm UK based too and had to go private as the NHS waiting lists are long). I stopped taking it recently without telling my psych, and thank heavens I did. I found it to be a mixed experience. Its a bit difficult to put myself back into the state I was in to report the effectiveness without reading my journal, which is not stimulating enough a task at the moment (!), but I'll try my best:

PROS

Oh my, what a relief when I first took it. It calmed my mind from distracting thoughts and made everything peaceful. I have both ADHD and SCT (I believe they are two separate attentive disorders with co morbidity) and it helped with the ADHD side well. Less distraction and a calmer mind meant more productivity and less mental fog, I have to admit.

I suppose the calmer, more zen like, mind state did help with the SCT side of things too. More clarity, less dreamy and more involved with life generally. It helped me with work and social involvement which I find difficult with SCT due to info processing difficulty.

I'd summarise in saying that it put my mind/life back together so that I could do the things I wanted to do. It helped with executive functioning...so I'd say YES it helps SCT. Now here is the drawback,

CONS

My god, it was slow and subtle but everything became so sad! I didnt understand. The med helped me to get back to work, go out with friends, meet women and have sex again but it was difficult to gain enjoyment from these activities. Depression. I've had a couple of previous experiences of depression and this was a reminder. It was strange to feel so sad without any reason to be- at least when i was depressed before I knew it was because I had lost something. In this case- everything was going great. I was gaining not losing, yet there was this sadness! Anyway, one day I missed a dose and everything lightened up again and I realised it had been the med. So I'm off it.

The good thing is it helped get my life back together enough so that when I stopped it I was in a better, less worrisome place and so the ADHD stuff isn't so bad and the thoughts that distract me now are positive. However, the SCT stuff is back.

I wont be trying it again - plus despite functioning, there was no 'alive' feeling that I hope (so much) I will get from some Dexadrine (and maybe Tyrosine, as you say)

By the way, I've also had some success with a product called Neuro Optimiser which contains Acetyl Carnitine and ALA and other stuff.

Can you tell me if you mentioned SCT to your psych? I'm wondering whether to talk to my psych here or whether to just carry on for ADHD-I treatment. I'm thinking that if I talk to him about SCT he might try Dexadrine with me, but if I talk about ADHD I then he might want to try Ritalin first. And from people's experiences, this does not work. How long did it take for you to get treated properly on the NHS. Any info would be greatly appreciated, I'm having a tough time being heard and treated properly (mostly due to the SCT disorganisation!)

I have recently been diagnosed with ADHD-PI but I have chosen to not take any medication to avoid any side effects. Has anyone else on this forum made the same choice? I also suspect that my condition is comorbid with SCT so how do those of you who have chosen not to go the meds route deal with these illnesses? I am a student and it is depressing having to study when my brain is not in that mode, which is a great portion of the time.

Just poking my head back in here after a zillion years -

I'm cured. Turns out it was undiagnosed food allergies (dairy, gluten, corn, and to some extent, refined sugar). The two biggest symptoms that caused my ADHD-I were (1) fatigue, and (2) inability to focus. I was tired ALL the time, and even when I got enough sleep, I just couldn't focus my brain on what I wanted to, when I wanted to. Once in awhile things would clear up, but I couldn't explain when or why.

Now I can see clearly that it was food the whole time. When it comes to additives, the food industry is pretty nasty and it can be nearly impossible to cut out the stuff you're allergic to, especially if you live in the USA where our processed food is made with a ton of preservatives and stuff that come from corn, gluten, and dairy sources. I'm basically allergic to the Western diet.

I hope that helps out in your own personal research on getting cured. I lived for nearly 30 years with mush-for-brains, and now I'm doing great - so there's hope! I don't know if everyone's ADHD-I is caused by hidden food allergies, but hopefully this can be a stepping stone on your path to managing your symptoms. As long as I'm careful about what I put into my mouth, I can live a fairly ADHD-I-free life. Hope that helps!

I was a serch and rescue leader/co-ordinater we were taking 1st aid Instructer discribed the scene= steep hillside man has a puntured femoral arttery what do you do(pointed at me) Id take my shirt or under shirt of to cover the wound in order to apply preusure instructer said .wrong you would have to use a #2 gauze bandage.sad to say the man would have bled out while waitting for the #2 this may sound like BULL. the cotton picker failed me it made no sence. I learned I have to addapt and improvise nd that how nd why I in this forum. did i spell addapt corectly are there 2 DDs in it?? the info in this forum shows me where my view points and a lot of my thinkin,feeling were not realy mine but the result of and finding that kind of inforamtion is leadin me to feeling better about me-life-society and the list will grow iv only been in herre a short time I thank all you folks whos storys made me feel part of and at home

What types of things have helped? Have certain meds helped at all?

I feel it is so hard to distinguish sct and adhd-pi cause there are so many factors and it is too similar in ways. The slow part is what throws me off though.