I was diagnosed 10 years ago with Inattentive ADHD, and only just recently I discovered that there’s a subtype that more accurately describes me. I’ve read a fair bit about ADHD, however I had never heard of Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCT), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo) .

I’m wondering if anyone can share with me what you may know about SCT and how it’s been approached, treatment wise.

It's not been substantiated as a "separate" disorder.

Therefore, ADHD-PI type remains as is.

Also might want to try www.amenclinic.com (http://www.amenclinic.com) : under self tests there is a "brain stem" (or something like that) test.

another site is Http://www.add101.com/types.htm (http://www.add101.com/types.htm)

Granted, please remember these are both only tools to possibly assist your doctor... but there is some interesting information on these sites.

Enjoy

Barkley's transcript from his lecture in San Fran 2000 is interesting. Go to the page 5 subheading entitled, is ADHD inattentive subtype another disorder?
you will have to download the pdf -> http://www.schwablearning.org/Articles.asp?r=54
The topic was hashed out to death on a previous thread. Do a search on here under the heading SCT.
I saw Barkley last year and he said, "the field is wide open". This is a relatively new area of research in ADHD.

A thread where I am going to stick SCT stuff that I find.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1474811
SCT
-A significant subset are hypoactive and sluggish and have slow response speeds.
-Primary deficit in working memory, especially prominent in auditory processing because of the demands it places on working memory
-Tend to be overely self-conscious
-Social problems because too passive, shy, or withdrawn
More likely to be introverted
-Internalizing disorders, such as anxiety or depression, are somewhat more common in children with ADD than those with ADHD. ADD children tend to be socially isolated or withdrawn. Reading and language deficits and problems with mental mathematical calculations are more commonly comorbid with ADD than with ADHD.
-A significant percentage are not helped by methylphenidate.
Most respond positively to methylphenidate in moderate to high doses. Those who are helped by methylphenidate often do best at low doses. A significant subset are helped by amphetamines rather than methylphenidate. Amphetamines affect both the reuptake and release of catecholamines. A marked deficit in the release of DA and NE might cause sluggishness and underarousal.
-People with ADD are not so much easily distracted as easily bored. Their problem lies more in motivation than in inhibition.
-Individuals with ADD, although typically shy, may engage in risk-taking and thrill-seeking activities as ways to experience a level of engagement they have difficulty sustaining in their daily lives.
-A primary disturbance in prefrontal cortex is implicated.
-The primary neural circuit that is affected may be a frontal–parietal one.
-The 7-repeat allele polymorphism of the DRD4 gene is more strongly linked to ADD than to ADHD. This is consistent with the centrality of prefrontal cortex in ADD because the D4 DA receptor is present in prefrontal cortex but not in the striatum in humans.

and in more detail from the same site....

Attention-deficit disorder (attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder without hyperactivity): A neurobiologically and behaviorally distinct disorder from attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (with hyperactivity)

ADELE DIAMOND
Abstract

Most studies of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) have focused on the combined type and emphasized a core problem in response inhibition. It is proposed here that the core problem in the truly inattentive type of ADHD (not simply the subthreshold combined type) is in working memory. It is further proposed that laboratory measures, such as complex-span and dual-task dichotic listening tasks, can detect this. Children with the truly inattentive type of ADHD, rather than being distractible, may instead be easily bored, their problem being more in motivation (under-arousal) than in inhibitory control. Much converging evidence points to a primary disturbance in the striatum (a frontal–striatal loop) in the combined type of ADHD. It is proposed here that the primary disturbance in truly inattentive-type ADHD (ADD) is in the cortex (a frontal–parietal loop). Finally, it is posited that these are not two different types of ADHD, but two different disorders with different cognitive and behavioral profiles, different patterns of comorbidities, different responses to medication, and different underlying neurobiologies.

I join the growing chorus of those who argue that attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) of the “truly” inattentive subtype (what I will call “attention-deficit disorder” [ADD]) is a different disorder from ADHD where hyperactivity is present (e.g., Barkley, 2001; Cantwell, 1983; Carlson, 1986; Carlson & Mann, 2000; Goodyear & Hynd, 1992; Hynd, Lorys, Semrud–Clikeman, Nieves, Huettner, & Lahey, 1991; in particular see the outstanding paper by Milich, Balentine, & Lynam, 2001). Not only is “ADHD without hyperactivity” (ADHD of the predominantly inattentive type) an awkward locution, but it also tries to squeeze ADD into a box in which it does not belong. The term ADHD should be reserved for when hyperactivity is present (as the term implies), regardless of whether inattention is also present.

The points I make in this paper include the following: many individuals currently diagnosed with the inattentive subtype of ADHD appear to be misdiagnosed. ADD appears to be an instance of childhood-onset “dysexecutive syndrome.” ADD and ADHD are characterized by dissociable cognitive and behavioral profiles, different patterns of comorbidities, different responses to medication, and different underlying neurobiological problems. The core cognitive deficit of ADD is in working memory. Contrary to what many have claimed (that laboratory tests cannot capture the core cognitive deficits in ADD), I argue that complex-span and dual-task dichotic listening tasks can indeed capture them. The working memory deficit in many children with ADD is accompanied by markedly slowed reaction times, a characteristic that covaries with poorer working memory in general. Individuals with ADD are not so much distractible as easily bored and underaroused. I hypothesize that the DAT1 gene will be found to be more closely linked to ADHD than to ADD, whereas the DRD4 gene will be found to be more closely linked to ADD than to ADHD, and that the primary neural circuit affected in ADHD is frontal–striatal, whereas the primary neural circuit affected in ADD is frontal–parietal.

The current DSM-IV (American Psychiatric Association [APA], 1994) diagnostic guidelines list three subtypes of ADHD: (a) primarily inattentive, (b) primarily hyperactive and impulsive, or (c) both combined. ADHD conceived in this manner is by far the most commonly diagnosed psychological/behavioral disorder of childhood (e.g., Barkley, DuPaul, & McMurray, 1990; Szatmari, 1992; Weiss & Hechtman, 1979).

Individuals with ADHD of the inattentive subtype tend to be disorganized, easily pulled off course, forgetful, and inattentive (DSM-IV; APA, 1994). They tend to be disorganized mentally and physically. They tend to make careless mistakes, and are not good at paying close attention to detail. They have difficulty organizing their work, setting priorities, planning out a strategy, and remembering to do all required tasks. They have difficulty organizing their things and tend to be sloppy. They have trouble keeping track of their belongings and forget where they have put them, in part because they rarely put things away. If multiple items are needed for an assignment or task, they will typically forget one or more. They have trouble keeping track of multiple things held in mind, which can make arithmetic calculation, reading, or abstract problem solving difficult.

Individuals with ADHD of the inattentive type also tend to have a hard time sustaining focused attention on a task or activity. They are quite poor at following through on something to completion. They tend to get bored with a task fairly quickly and often abandon a task unfinished, bouncing from one partially begun project to another. They may have a hard time keeping their mind on any one thing at a time. When doing homework or reading, they often find their minds wandering. Because focusing deliberate, conscious attention on completing a task is so arduous or aversive for individuals with the inattentive subtype of ADHD, they tend to try to avoid beginning a task, procrastinate, may forget to write an assignment down, forget to bring home the materials needed to complete an assignment, or lose materials needed for an assignment.

In 1986 Baddeley coined the term dysexecutive syndrome to refer to adults who seem to have a deficient “central executive” and who thus appear to be disorganized, easily pulled off course, forgetful, and inattentive. As far as I know, dysexecutive syndrome has always been used with reference to adults. I would like to suggest that children with ADHD of the inattentive subtype provide an instance of the dysexecutive syndrome in children. Dysexecutive syndrome patients may go off on tangents or lose their train of thought. Individual skills, such as encoding an item into memory or retrieving an item from memory, are intact. However, dysexecutive patients “have problems in initiating [a chore], monitoring their performance, and . . using such information to adjust their behavior. As most tests concentrate on the building blocks or component skills and are less concerned with the integration of these skills into real-life tasks, many [dysexecutive] patients … perform adequately on frontal lobe tasks … In contrast, many everyday activities involving executive abilities require patients to organize, or plan their behavior over longer time periods or to set priorities in the face of two or more competing tasks” (Wilson, Evans, Emslie, Alderman, & Burgess, 1998, p. 214). It is on such everyday activities that the dysexecutive deficit is most evident. Dysexecutive patients often start out performing a task well, but quickly become sidetracked. It is hard for them to stay focused on the task at hand, and they commonly must be reminded of what it was they were supposed to be doing.

The DSM-IV cutoffs for the inattentive, hyperactive, and combined subtypes of ADHD were derived largely from research with young males, who are more prone to hyperactivity and impulsivity than are girls or older males or females. Hence, some individuals get miscategorized as inattentive-type ADHD, despite being hyperactive for their gender or age, because they are not significantly more hyperactive or impulsive than young boys (e.g., Carlson & Mann, 2002; deHaas & Young, 1984; Milich et al., 2001; Weiss, Worling, & Wasdell, 2003). Such individuals should be considered the combined type. In this article, I focus on individuals with ADD (those who meet the criteria for inattentive-type ADHD and who are not hyperactive, excluding those with significant hyperactivity even if subthreshold for a combined-type diagnosis according to current DSM criteria). There is considerable overlap between what I am calling “ADD” and what others have called “slow cognitive tempo” (SCT; e.g., Milich et al., 2001), but SCT includes additional features that characterize only a subset of children with ADD. I reserve use of the term ADHD for ADHD that includes prominent hyperactivity (which for all practical purposes means combined-type ADHD because predominantly hyperactive ADHD is so rare after the age of 6).

Children with combined-type ADHD have many of the above symptoms, but they also have great difficulty sitting still (APA, 1994). They are overactive (motor and verbal), restless, and always on the go. They are overly talkative, fidgety, and squirmy. They often do repetitive motions like wiggling their feet or tapping their pencil. They get up when remaining seated is expected. They can talk incessantly and have difficulty playing quietly.

They also tend to be impulsive (APA, 1994) and are inclined to be very disorganized and sloppy, because they are often too impatient to carefully attend to detail or to put things away. They can have trouble waiting their turn, may blurt out an answer before hearing the whole question, and may interrupt others. They may intrude on others' conversation or game, without considering beforehand that it might be inappropriate. Because they tend to act impulsively, they may run into the street without looking or grab a toy from another child.

ADD and ADHD That Includes Hyperactivity Are Dissociable Disorders
Whereas children with ADHD are frenetic and hyperactive, a significant proportion of children with ADD are exactly the opposite. A significant subset of children with ADD are hypoactive, sluggish, and very slow to respond (see Table 1). Children with ADHD are often insufficiently self-conscious; children with ADD tend to be overly self-conscious. Both groups tend to have social problems, but for different reasons. An ADHD child is likely to have social problems because he/she alienates other children by butting in, taking their things, failing to wait his or her turn, and in general, acting without having first considered the feelings of others (e.g., Lahey, Schaughency, Hynd, Carlson, & Niever, 1987). On the other hand, a child with ADD is likely to have social problems because of being too passive, shy, or withdrawn (e.g., Goodyear & Hynd, 1992; Hinshaw, 2002; Maedgen & Carlson, 2000). His or her quietness or slowness to respond may be misinterpreted by others as aloofness, disinterest, or unresponsiveness. Children with ADHD tend to be extroverted; children with ADD do not.

Because of their disruptive behavior, children with ADHD are more likely to be suspended or expelled from school (Weiss et al., 2003). Conduct disorder and aggressivity are far more commonly comorbid with ADHD than with ADD (e.g., Barkley et al., 1990; Barkley, DuPaul, & McMurray, 1991; Faraone, Biederman, Wever, & Russell, 1998; Edelbrock, Costello, & Kessler, 1984; Goodyear & Hynd, 1992; Lahey et al., 1987; Morgan, Hynd, Riccio, & Hall, 1996; Nigg, 2000; Weiss et al., 2003). Conversely, children with ADD are somewhat more prone to internalizing disorders such as anxiety or depression (or at least show a marked absence of externalizing disorders) and tend to be more socially isolated or withdrawn than are children with ADHD (Barkley et al., 1990, 1991; Faraone, Biederman, Wever, & Russell, 1998; Edelbrock, Costello, & Kessler, 1984; Goodyear & Hynd, 1992; Lahey et al., 1987; Morgan, Hynd, Riccio, & Hall, 1996; Nigg, 2000; Weiss et al., 2003). Reading and language deficits are more commonly comorbid with ADD than with ADHD (Faraone et al., 1998; Warner–Rogers, Taylor, Taylor, & Sandberg, 2000; Weiss et al., 2003; Willcutt & Pennington, 2000) as are problems with mental mathematical calculations (Carlson, Lahey, & Neeper, 1986; Hynd et al., 1991; Marshall, Hynd, Handwerk, & Hall, 1997; Morgan et al., 1996).

Most children with ADHD (perhaps as high as 90%; Barkley, 2001; Barkley et al., 1991; Milich et al., 2001; Weiss et al., 2003) respond positively to methylphenidate (Ritalin) and over two-thirds of such children respond positively to methylphenidate in moderate to high doses (Barkley, 2001; Barkley et al., 1991; Milich et al., 2001; Weiss et al., 2003). In contrast, a significant percentage of children with ADD are not helped by methylphenidate and those who are helped often do best at low doses (Barkley, 2001; Barkley et al., 1991; Milich et al., 2001; Weiss et al., 2003). Many individuals with ADD are helped by amphetamines, such as Adderall. There is considerable overlap in the mechanisms of action of methylphenidate and amphetamines, but there is a significant difference. Although both methylphenidate and amphetamines inhibit reuptake of dopamine and norepinephrine, only amphetamines also promote release of those neurotransmitters. Recent research also suggests that low doses of methylphenidate (the dosages likely to be efficacious in treating ADD) preferentially release norepinephrine in the rat brain (Ishimatsu, Kidani, Tsuda, & Akasu, 2002). Possible problems with the neural release of norepinephrine in ADD are relevant to motivational issues discussed later.

There is also some evidence for differential responsivity to nicotine. There are marked similarities in the neurobiological and psychological effects of nicotine and methylphenidate (e.g., Pomerleau, 1997). It has been hypothesized that individuals with ADHD who are not taking stimulant medication may try to self-medicate by smoking. Certainly, unmedicated adolescents with ADHD smoke far more than do their medicated ADHD peers and their non-ADHD peers (Whalen, Jamner, Henker, Gehricke, & King, 2003). Krause, Dresel, Krause, la Fougere, and Ackenheil (2003) report that individuals with ADHD are far more likely to smoke than are individuals with ADD: “It was striking how many of the 20- to 40-year-old patients in our group, who had shown symptoms of hyperactivity and impulsivity in childhood, were smokers: nine smoked and only three were non-smokers … The opposite was shown in the patients with only inattentive symptoms throughout their whole life: only two smoked, seven were non-smokers” (pp. 610–611; although note that Tercyak, Lerman, & Audrain, 2002, report the opposite).

Filipek, Semrud–Clikeman, Steingard, Renshaw, Kennedy, and Biederman (1997) report that individuals with ADHD who respond favorably to stimulant medication have the smallest caudate nuclei. There is now converging evidence for a primary disturbance in the striatum in children with ADHD. Both structural and functional neuroimaging studies report striatal abnormalities in children with ADHD. Structural magnetic resonance imaging studies consistently find smaller caudate volumes and reversed caudate asymmetry in those with ADHD (Aylward, Reiss, Reader, Singer, Brown, & Denckla, 1996; Castellanos, Elia, Kruesi, Gulotta, Mefford, Potter, Ritchie, & Rapoport, 1994; Castellanos et al., 1996; Filipek et al., 1997; Hynd, Hern, Novey, Eliopulos, Marshall, Gonzalez, & Voeller, 1993; Mataro, Garcia–Sanchez, Junque, Estevez–Gonzalez, & Pujol, 1997; Schrimsher, Billingsley, Jackson, & Moore, 2002), although the laterality of the differences and direction of left–right asymmetry have not always been consistent across studies. Functional neuroimaging studies report less striatal activity in ADHD children while they are performing response–inhibition tasks compared to age-matched controls (Durston, Tottenham, Thomas, Davidson, Eigsti, Yang, Ulug, & Casey, 2003; Lou, Hendriksen, & Bruhn, 1984; Lou, Hendriksen, Bruhn, Borner, & Nielsen, 1989; Teicher, Ito, Glod, & Barber, 1996; Vaidya, Austin, Kirkorian, Ridlehuber, Desmond, Glover, & Gabrieli, 1998; Zametkin, Liebenauer, Fitzgerald, King, Minkunas, Herscovitch, Yamada, & Cohen, 1993). Hyperactivity is more typically found after structural damage to the striatum than after structural damage to frontal cortex. Motor hyperactivity is not a prominent characteristic of frontal patients, although an impulsive, manic type of activity (such as marked verbosity) can sometimes be seen in frontal patients. In contrast, patients with Parkinson disease (where the primary disturbance is in the striatum) can show a kind of motor restlessness (called “akathisia”; Lang & Johnson, 1987).

Dopamine transporter (DAT) is the principal mechanism for reuptake of released dopamine. DAT is abundant in the striatum (Garris & Wightman 1994), where it is widely distributed and strategically located (Sesack, Hawrylak, Matus, Guido, & Levey, 1998). It is far less abundant and less well situated in the prefrontal cortex (Sanchez–Gonzalez & Cavada, 2003; Sesack et al., 1998). Hence, it plays a more important role in striatal function than in prefrontal function. DAT is the product of the DAT1 gene. Several studies report that commonly found polymorphisms in the DAT1 locus are associated with ADHD (Barr, Wigg, Bloom, Schachar, Tannock, Roberts, Malone, & Kennedy, 2000; Cook, Stein, Krasowski, Cox, Olkon, Kieffer, & Leventhal, 1995; Daly, Hawi, Fitzgerald, & Gill, 1999; Gill, Daly, Heron, Hawl, & Fitzgerald, 1997; Swanson et al., 2000; Waldman, Rowe, Abramowitz, Kozel, Mohr, Sherman, Cleveland, Sanders, Gard, & Stever, 1998). In a meta-analysis of 11 family-based studies, Cook (2000) found the association between the DAT1 gene and ADHD to be highly significant (p < .0001). It is important that levels of hyperactive–impulsive symptoms are correlated with the number of DAT1 high-risk alleles but levels of inattentive symptoms are not (Waldman et al., 1998). A role for polymorphisms of the DAT1 gene in ADHD is consistent with the centrality of the striatum in ADHD because DAT plays a particularly important role in the striatum. It is also consistent with the efficacy of methylphenidate in treating ADHD, because methylphenidate acts directly on DAT function (Dresel, Krause, LaFougere, Brinkbaumer, Kung, Hahn, & Tatsch, 2000; Seeman & Madras, 1998; Shenker, 1992; Volkow, Gur, Wang, Fowler, Moberg, Ding, Hitzemann, Smith, & Logan, 1998). Further, there is evidence that nicotine may act directly on DAT in a way similar to that of methylphenidate (Krause et al., 2003; Krause, Dresel, Krause, Kung, & Tatsch, 2000; Krause, Dresel, Krause, Kung, Tatsch, & Ackenheil, 2002). Indeed, DAT binding specifically in the striatum has been found to be related to motor hyperactivity but not to inattentive symptoms (Jucaite, Fernell, Halldin, Forssberg, & Farde, 2005).

If the striatum is potentially the primary site for neurobiological dysfunction in ADHD, what is the primary site for dysfunction in ADD? There has been far less research on ADD, especially excluding individuals misdiagnosed as having ADD rather than subthreshold combined-type ADHD. However, the neurobiological, cognitive, and behavioral profile of children with ADD strongly implicates a primary disturbance in prefrontal cortex. Whereas polymorphisms in the DAT1 gene are hypothesized to be more strongly linked to ADHD than ADD, the 7-repeat allele polymorphism of the DRD4 gene is more strongly linked to ADD then to ADHD (Rowe, Stever, Giedinghagen, Gard, Cleveland, Terris, Mohr, Sherman, Abramowitz, & Waldman, 1998). The dopamine receptor subtype, DRD4, is present in prefrontal cortex in humans, but not in the striatum (Meador–Woodruff, Damask, Wang, Haroutunian, Davis, & Watson, 1996). Hence, a link with the DRD4 gene implicates prefrontal, rather than striatal, involvement. In the human prefrontal cortex, mRNAs for the dopamine receptor subtypes (DRD1 and DRD4) are the most abundant, although the other dopamine receptor subtypes are present. In the human striatum, in contrast, receptors are abundant for, and limited to, D1, D2, and D3 (Meador–Woodruff et al., 1996). Similarly, in the rhesus monkey, DRD4 is densely localized to prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus, with significantly lower levels in the striatum (De La Garza & Madras, 2000). Although DRD4 and DRD5 expression is noticeably higher in the cortex than the striatum of the rhesus brain, levels of DRD1 and DRD2 mRNAs are noticeably higher in the striatum than in the cortex. Consistent with an association between DRD4 polymorphism and ADD is Auerbach, Benjamin, Faroy, Geller, and Ebstein's finding (2001) of a significant relation between individual differences in sustained attention and working memory on the one hand and polymorphism of the DRD4 gene on the other hand in normal infants (those with the 7-repeat allele performing worse). Also consistent with this is that DAT1 gene expression has been found to preferentially affect caudate volume, whereas DRD4 gene expression preferentially affects prefrontal gray matter volume (Durston et al., 2005). However, the finding that ADHD children with the DRD4 7-repeat allele required higher doses of methylphenidate is inconsistent with this (Hamarman, Fossella, Ulger, Brimacombe, & Dermody, 2004).

No brain region functions in isolation. The striatum has close links with prefrontal cortex and there is considerable evidence that a disturbance in frontal–striatal circuitry is found in ADHD (e.g., Casey et al., 1997; Castellanos, 1997; Hale, Hariri, & McCracken, 2000; Heilman, Voeller, & Nadeau, 1991). Brain regions participate in more than one circuit. The patterns of deficits often seen in ADD (such as problems with math calculation, language, and working memory, and lethargy (not due to depression) implicate a frontal–parietal circuit (e.g., Chochon, Cohen, van de Moortele, & Dehaene, 1999; Peers, Ludwig, Rorden, Cusack, Bonfiglioli, Bundesen, Driver, Antoun, & Duncan, 2005; Ravizza, Delgado, Chein, Becker, & Fiez, 2004; Rivera, Reiss, Eckert & Menon, 2005; Simon, Mangin, Cohen, Le Bihan, & Dehaene, 2002; van Honk, Schutter, Putman, de Haan, & d'Alfonso, 2003).

Several groups have noted deficits in executive functions in children with ADHD (Bayliss & Roodenrys, 2000; Pennington & Ozonoff, 1996; Powell & Voeller, 2004); but, because so many of the children studied were hyperactive, many previous studies and theorists have emphasized deficits in inhibitory control, especially in motor inhibition (Barkley, 2000; Nigg, Blaskey, Huang–Pollock, & Rappley, 2002). I propose that the core executive function deficit in ADD is in working memory, as it is in patients with frontal cortex damage who suffer from a dysexecutive syndrome. If I am correct about the underlying neurobiological bases for ADD and ADHD it would hardly be surprising that executive functions would be compromised in both disorders, despite their being distinct disorders, given that ADHD a frontal–striatal circuit is disrupted and in ADD a frontal–parietal circuit is hypothesized to be most affected.

Children With ADD, Like Adult Dysexecutive Syndrome Patients, Have a Primary Deficit in Working Memory
The term working memory has been defined in a number of different ways. Goldman–Rakic (1987) used it to refer to holding information in mind. Baddeley (1992; Baddeley & Hitch, 1994) defined working memory as holding information in mind while simultaneously manipulating or transforming that information (maintenance + manipulation, or temporary storage + processing). Many have adopted that seminal model of working memory, including D'Esposito, Detre, Alsop, Shin, Atlas, and Grossman (1995), Miyake and Shah (1999), Petrides (1995), and Smith and Jonides (1999). Another prominent model of working memory is that of Engle, who defines working memory as the ability to (a) maintain selected information in an active, easily retrievable form while (b) blocking or inhibiting other information from entering that active state (i.e., maintenance + inhibition; Conway & Engle, 1994; Kane & Engle, 2000, 2002). This shares much in common with the influential thinking of Hasher and Zacks (1988) who have emphasized the inhibitory requirements of gating out irrelevant information from the mental workspace of working memory and deleting no longer relevant information from that limited-capacity workspace.

The perspectives of Baddeley and Engle share in common with my own (e.g., Diamond, 1990, 2002) that simply holding information in mind is not that taxing (unless the number of items becomes very large) and does not generally require involvement of dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (Brodmann's Areas 46 and 9). It is when holding information in mind must be combined with another operation, such as manipulation (which Baddeley emphasized) or inhibition (which Engle and I have emphasized), that cognitive capacity is truly taxed and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is required. I have argued that inhibition and holding information in mind are dissociable in that they can be independently varied, although it is their conjunction that requires dorsolateral prefrontal cortex involvement. There is general agreement that the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is needed when one must both maintain information in mind and perform another operation (such as working with that information or inhibiting a strong response tendency; for reviews, see D'Esposito, Postle, & Rypma, 2000; Owen, 1997; Petrides, 1996; Smith, Jonides, Marshuetz, & Koeppe, 1998;).

Activation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is more likely to be increased if you are asked to add numbers or repeat them backward (backward digit span) than if you are asked to simply repeat them (forward digit span). Simply repeating back digits in the order in which you have heard them does not require working with the information held in mind; it does not require working memory. Patients with prefrontal damage often show no impairment on forward digit span, although they perform worse than controls on backward digit span (Stuss & Benson, 1986). Mixed groups of children with ADHD and/or ADD also perform worse than controls on backward, but not forward, digit span (Mariani & Barkley, 1997; McInnes, Humphries, Hogg–Johnson, & Tannock, 2003; Milich & Loney, 1979; Shue & Douglas, 1992) and backward, but not forward, spatial span (McInnes et al., 2003).

Similarly, frontal patients and children with ADD have problems when they have to add or manipulate numbers in their head (Barkley et al., 1990; Benedetto–Nasho & Tannock, 1999; Hynd et al., 1991; Welsh & Pennington, 1988; Zentall & Smith, 1993) or when they have to compute two-step problems in their heads, although they can solve each step individually (Barbizet, 1970; Barkley, 1997; Luria, 1973). They can remember an item as well as anyone. Their deficit becomes evident as the number of items increases and as the demands on manipulating those items increase.

Frontal patients and children with ADD perform well on many assessment measures, leading some to argue that tests cannot capture their executive dysfunction (e.g., Barkley et al., 1991). It is easy to see why people would come to that conclusion. The tests used often measure short- or long-term memory rather than working memory. The tests people have used often focus on discrete skills (rather than the conjunction of holding information in mind plus manipulating it or exercising inhibition). Further, tests are often given in situations where there are minimal distractions and the examiner provides the executive functioning, such as repeatedly bringing the test taker back to the task at hand. Finally, frontal patients and children with ADD can have periods of excellent executive functioning; they just cannot perform reliably at that level. A single “snapshot” testing might catch a patient at an unrepresentatively high level of executive functioning. Better accuracy and reliability can be achieved if more than a single testing is administered.

I predict that complex-span tasks will prove exquisitely sensitive to ADD and will capture the essence of the cognitive problem of individuals with ADD. Complex-span tasks require transforming information held in mind under high-interference conditions (Dempster, 1981, 1985). When people discuss individual differences, or age-related differences, in working memory, they are often referring to differences in precisely these tasks.

One such complex-span task is the counting-span task (Case, Kurland, & Goldberg, 1982). On each trial, the participant is asked to count the number of blue dots, which appear embedded in a field of yellow dots, touching each blue dot and enumerating it. Immediately thereafter, the participant is to give the total number of blue dots for that display and the total number of blue dots for all preceding displays in correct serial order. This requires holding information in mind while executing another mental operation (Counting), selectively attending to the blue dots while inhibiting attention to the yellow ones, updating the information held in mind on each trial, and keeping track of the order of the totals computed across trials (temporal order memory).

In the spatial-span task (Case, 1992a, 1992b), the participant inspects a 4 × 4 matrix on each trial, noting which cell is shaded. A filler pattern is then shown, and then an empty 4 × 4 grid. The participant is to point to the cell that had been shaded on that trial. Over several blocks of trials, the number of shaded cells gradually increases. Interference from prior trials and from the filler pattern is high.

The pattern-span task is similar to the spatial-span task. Several cells are shaded. The participant gets a quick look at the pattern. At test, one of the cells that had been shaded is now unshaded and the participant must point to that cell. The number of shaded cells increases until the participant's accuracy falls below criterion. Performance on the pattern-span task, as on the counting and spatial-span tasks, improves greatly between 5 and 11 years of age, when it starts to be asymptotic (Miles, Morgan, Milne, & Morris, 1996; Wilson, Scott, & Power, 1987).

In the compound stimulus visual information task (Pascual–Leone, 1970), the participant is taught a different novel response (e.g., raise your hand, clap your hands) for each of several different visual cues (e.g., a square shape or red color). After learning these to criterion, compound stimuli (e.g., a red square) are presented, each for 5 s, and the participant is to “decode the message” by producing every response called for by the stimuli. As on the above complex-span tasks, the number of correct responses increases until about 11 years of age (Case, 1972, 1995).

Two language-related complex-span tasks have been developed by Daneman and Carpenter (1980). The listening-span task (Daneman & Carpenter, 1980) requires processing auditorially presented sentences (sometimes being asked to verify the truthfulness of the sentence just read) while retaining, in correct temporal order, the final words of each preceding sentence. Performance on that improves from 6 years until at least 15 years and probably until the early 20s (Siegel, 1994). The reading-span task (Daneman & Carpenter, 1980) is similar, but participants read the sentences aloud themselves, rather than hearing someone else read them.

Performance across these complex-span tasks is remarkably consistent and shows exceptionally consistent developmental change. The counting and spatial-span tasks have been normed on large numbers of children over a wide age range. A meta-analysis by Case (1992a, 1992b) of 12 cross-sectional studies shows developmental progressions for these two measures that could not be more comparable (see Figure 1). In typically developing children, continuous and marked improvements are seen from 4.5 to 8 years of age, then continued, more gradual improvement until 10–11 years of age, with much more gradual improvement thereafter. The compound stimulus visual information task has also been administered to large numbers of children and is highly correlated with performance on Case's counting and spatial-span tasks. A mirror image of the close relation between improvements on complex-span tasks during early development is the remarkably similar developmental degradation during aging across letter, reading, spatial, and computation-span tasks (Park & Payer, 2005).

There is no research of which I am aware that looks at complex-span test performance in children with ADD, and almost none looking at this in children with broadly defined ADHD. One of the few studies examining the latter is the outstanding work of Westerberg, Hirvikoski, Forssberg, and Klingberg (2004). They administered a spatial-span task and found a striking difference between children with ADHD broadly defined and controls. The size of the group difference increased markedly with age due to floor effects at the youngest ages (see Figure 2). I predict that mathematical and linguistic complex-span tasks would show similarly striking group differences, that the differences would be even more dramatic if only children with ADD were included, and that marked differences at the youngest ages tested here, and at still younger ages, can be found with complex-span measures more appropriate for younger children.

Verbal presentation of material places a particularly high demand on working memory. Hence, it is proposed that verbal presentation of material is not the best instructional format for children with ADD. Findings of central auditory processing problems in many children with ADD (e.g., Gascon, Johnson, & Burd, 1986; Riccio, Hynd, Cohen, & Hall, 1994) may be largely due to working memory demands. Listening comprehension is highly correlated with both spatial and verbal working memory (e.g., Daneman & Carpenter, 1980; Just & Carpenter, 1992; McInnes et al., 2003). Indeed, a good part of the co-occurrence of language impairment with ADD may be due to the working memory demands of much linguistic processing. Children with ADHD broadly defined have no difficulty recalling discrete facts from verbally presented stories (that requires no working memory; Lorch, Milich, Sanchez, van den Broek, Baer, Hooks, Hartung, & Welsh, 2000; Pugzles Lorch, Milich, & Sanchez, 1998; Sanchez, Lorch, Milich, & Welsh, 1999; see also Aaron, Joshi, & Phipps, 2004; Ghelani, Sidhu, Jain, & Tannock, 2004). They show deficits, however, in comprehending complex causal relationships from those same stories (Aaron, Joshi, & Phipps, 2004; Ghelani, Sidhu, Jain, & Tannock, 2004; Lorch, Milich, Sanchez, van den Broek, Baer, Hooks, Hartung, & Welsh, 2000; Pugzles Lorch, Milich, & Sanchez, 1998; Sanchez, Lorch, Milich, & Welsh, 1999). Dichotic listening tasks, especially those that require multitasking (reporting what is heard in both ears; Lipschutz et al., 2001), I predict, should be as sensitive to detecting differences in performance between children with ADD and comparison groups as complex-span tasks. Higher working memory span and better performance on dichotic listening are highly correlated (Conway, Cowan, & Bunting, 2001). Indeed, tasks in the auditory domain, whether complex-span or dual-task dichotic listening, should be particularly sensitive to the problems of children with ADD for the reasons discussed above.

In my experience, there is often a trade-off between linguistic and spatial skills. Individuals with ADD are often superior in spatial reasoning and/or artistic drawing. The verbal component of schooling is enormous. Were spatial skills more emphasized in school, and verbal skills less so, children with ADD would show themselves to be far better students.

The name ADD implies a primary deficit in attention. It may seem odd, then, that I am proposing a primary deficit in working memory. It is perhaps a bit less odd when the close, intimate relation between memory and attention is appreciated. Focusing on information held in mind for several seconds might as easily be called focused or sustained attention as working memory. Behavioral (Awh & Jonides, 2001; Barnes, Nelson, & Reuter–Lorenz, 2001; de Fockert, Rees, Frith, & Lavie, 2001) and neuroimaging (Awh, Anllo–Vento, & Hillyard, 2000; Casey, Forman, Franzen, Berkowitz, Braver, Nystrom, Thomas, & Noll, 2001; LaBar, Gitelman, Parrish, & Mesulam, 1999) studies converge on the conclusion that the same neural system that is important for working memory is important for selective attention. Individual differences in working memory correspond to individual differences in selective attention (Conway, Tuholski, Shisler, & Engle, 1999; Kane, Bleckley, Conway, & Engle, 2001). The same prefrontal system that helps us selectively attend to stimuli in our environment (tuning out irrelevant stimuli) is the same system that helps us selectively keep our mind focused on the information we want to hold in mind in working memory.

Children With ADD, Like Adult Dysexecutive Syndrome Patients, Often Have Slow Processing Speeds
Another primary characteristic of a large subset of children with ADD is very slow reaction time and speed of processing (e.g., Barkley, Grodzinsky, & DuPaul, 1992; Holdnack, Moberg, Arnold, & Gur, 1995; Weiler, Holmes–Bernstein, Bellinger, & Waber, 2000; Westerberg et al., 2004). Many ADD children, although not all, appear sluggish, drowsy, spacey, lethargic, and markedly hypoactive (Barkley et al., 1990; Hynd, Nieves, Connor, Stone, Town, & Becker, 1989; Lahey & Carlson, 1991; Stanford & Hynd, 1994). They fit the criteria for having a sluggish cognitive tempo (SCT; Carlson & Mann, 2000, 2002; Frick et al., 1994; Goodyear & Hynd, 1992; Hartman, Willcutt, Rhee, & Pennington, 2004; Milich et al., 2001). The SCT classification, especially its features of daydreaming and drowsiness (not due to medication), which can be separate from slow speed, limits its applicability to only a subset of ADD children (Carlson & Mann, 2002).

Fast speed of processing is not an executive function, yet slow response rates are typical of patients with the dysexecutive syndrome. For reasons not yet fully understood, (a) frontal patients have slowed reaction times and can sometimes perform well on tasks on which they are typically impaired if given more time, (b) there is a strong, well-replicated relation between speed of processing and performance on executive function measures (Duncan, Burgess, & Emslie, 1995; Fry & Hale, 1996; Kail & Salthouse, 1994; Salthouse, 1992), (c) age-related improvements in speed of processing during childhood and adolescence are highly correlated with developmental improvements on complex-span tasks (Case et al., 1982; Hitch, Towse, & Hutton, 2001; Kail, 1992), and (d) age-related decline in the speed of processing from early through late adulthood is highly correlated with age-related decline in performance on complex-span tasks and related measures of executive function (Salthouse, 1992, 1993; Salthouse & Meinz, 1995).

Children's performance on the countingspan task is linearly related to the speed with which they can count the presented dots (Case et al., 1982). Similarly, the faster people can repeat back the word they have just heard, the more words they can hold in mind. As the speed of word repetition improves so too does word-span memory. When the speed at which adults and 6-year-olds can repeat back words is equated (by presenting adults with unfamiliar words), children and adults show equivalent word-span memory (Case et al., 1982). Similarly, when the speed at which adults and children can count is equated (by requiring adults to count in a foreign language), equivalent countingspan memory is found in adults and 6-year-olds.

The empirical relation between performance on complex-span tasks and generalized speed of processing might be due to any number of factors. Faster processing would mean that items do not need to be held in mind as long, reducing the demand on working memory. Faster processing and improved executive function performance may covary because they both reflect more efficient neural processing and improved signal/noise ratios, either because of systemwide improvements in the nervous system or because a better functioning prefrontal cortex improves signal/noise ratios for diverse neural regions, permitting faster and more efficient cognitive processing.

Whereas impaired working memory appears to be ubiquitous in ADD, slower speed of processing is not, although it is quite common. Similarly, although a great deal of the variance in performance on complex-span tasks can be accounted for by processing speed, controlling for speed does not eliminate all age-related differences in complex-span performance (Hitch et al., 2001). Speed and complex-span performance are correlated, but not perfectly so. Indeed, in a study of ADHD broadly defined, poor working memory, poor attentional inhibition, and disorganization were found to load a separate factor from sluggish cognitive tempo (Carlson & Mann, 2002).

Simple choice reaction-time tests would seem a reasonable way to obtain a quick and easy indication of whether a child's response speed is slowed or not. Westerberg et al. (2004) report that choice reaction-time performance differentiated children with ADHD broadly defined almost as well as did complex-span performance, and far better than performance on either a continuous performance task or a go/no-go measure. If one finds that a child with ADD has a slowed reaction rate, it does not necessarily follow, however, that a better instructional format for the child is to present material at a consistently slow rate if that might lead to boredom. Studies have shown that children with ADHD broadly perform poorly when material is presented at a constant slow rate (e.g., Sykes, Douglas, Weiss, & Minde, 1971), as do frontal patients (Rueckert & Grafman, 1998). However, if rates of presentation are intermixed, children with ADHD broadly defined are able to benefit from the greater processing time available for the more slowly presented items without that being counteracted by their attention wandering because the task is too easy and boring (Conte, Kinsbourne, Swanson, Zirk, & Samuels, 1986).

A Motivational Component to ADD
Although the literature and diagnostic manuals refer to children with ADD as easily distracted, I would like to propose that a more accurate description is that they are easily bored. Their problem lies more in motivation than it does in inhibition. Having lost interest in a project after only a short time, their attention drifts as they look for something else to engage their interest. Bored with the initial task, they abandon it before completion, moving on to the next project. It is not so much that external distraction derails them, as that they go looking for external (or internal) distraction because their interest in what they are supposed to be doing, or had started, has dwindled. (Sergeant, Oosterlaan, and colleagues have proposed a cognitive-energetic model of ADHD, which shares some features in common with what is being discussed here, but they have focused especially on aberrant reactions to reinforcement, which is different from the focus here, e.g., Luman, Oosterlaan, & Sergeant, 2005; Sergeant, Geurts, Huijbregts, Scheres, & Oosterlaan, 2003.)....

The conclusion

....Challenge or risk, something to literally get their adrenaline pumping, can be key to keeping their attention and to eliciting optimum performance from persons with ADD. In line with this, adults with ADD sometimes say they can focus better when driving if they speed than if they drive slowly. Children with ADHD broadly defined often perform normally on the continuous performance task when challenged by a fast presentation rate (Chee, Logan, Schachar, Lindsay, & Wachsmuth, 1989; van der Meere, Wekking, & Sergeant, 1991). Individuals with ADD, although typically shy, may engage in risk-taking and thrill-seeking activities, such as bungee jumping or riding roller coasters, as ways to experience a level of engagement they have difficulty sustaining in their daily lives. Computer and video games (which children with ADD can play for hours and hours) are fast paced, often with imminent danger keeping arousal high. Such games often rely on the execution of well-practiced associations between button presses and game features or well-practiced sequences of button presses, which children with ADD have no difficulty retrieving from their intact long-term memory and procedural memory. Executive function is taxed when conscious, top-down control is needed. The execution of any well-practiced skill, such a playing a computer game, is impaired by attempts to exert top-down control and is optimized by allowing older, subcortical systems to guide performance (e.g., Herrigel & Suzuki, 1953; Miller, Verstynen, Raye, Mitchell, Johnson, & D'Esposito, 2003).

Another way of looking at this is that if the neural systems of individuals with ADD have poorer signal/noise ratios, as would be consistent with slower speed of processing, then sustaining focused concentration on all the things that must be remembered and integrated for a task might well be more demanding for individuals with ADD. Hence, they would “burn out” on a task earlier than other folk and would need a greater infusion of adrenaline to fuel the system. Under the right circumstances, when sufficiently motivated, children with ADD (like patients with frontal cortex damage) can perform well, but it is hard for them to sustain that level of performance (frontal patients: Fuster, 1989; Stuss & Benson, 1986; children with ADHD broadly defined: Corkum & Siegel, 1993; Douglas & Peters, 1978; van der Meere & Sergeant, 1988).

Referenced in the above article.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1093/clipsy.8.4.463

ADHD Combined Type and ADHD Predominantly Inattentive Type Are Distinct and Unrelated Disorders
Richard Milich, Amy C. Balentine and Donald R. Lynam

We comprehensively reviewed research assessing differences in attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) subtypes to examine the possibility that ADHD/ combined type (ADHD/Q and ADHD/predominantly inattentive type (ADHD/I) are distinct and unrelated disorders. Differences among subtypes were examined along dimensions identified as being important in documenting the distinctiveness of two disorders. These include essential and associated features, demographics, measures of cognitive and neuropsychological functioning, family history, treatment response, and prognosis. Important differences among subtypes were found in several areas of study, supporting the conclusion that ADHD/C and ADHD/I may best be characterized as distinct disorders. We identify major limitations of the available research and present future directions for research.

Quotation from abstract cited by Scuro

One such complex-span task is the counting-span task (Case, Kurland, & Goldberg, 1982). On each trial, the participant is asked to count the number of blue dots, which appear embedded in a field of yellow dots, touching each blue dot and enumerating it. Immediately thereafter, the participant is to give the total number of blue dots for that display and the total number of blue dots for all preceding displays in correct serial order. This requires holding information in mind while executing another mental operation (Counting), selectively attending to the blue dots while inhibiting attention to the yellow ones, updating the information held in mind on each trial, and keeping track of the order of the totals computed across trials (temporal order memory).

In the spatial-span task (Case, 1992a, 1992b), the participant inspects a 4 × 4 matrix on each trial, noting which cell is shaded. A filler pattern is then shown, and then an empty 4 × 4 grid. The participant is to point to the cell that had been shaded on that trial. Over several blocks of trials, the number of shaded cells gradually increases. Interference from prior trials and from the filler pattern is high.

This reminds me of one of the aptitude tests we had to take when I was in 8th grade (I believe this was actually done under the aegis of the DOD to determine what we should be trained in when we were drafted to fight the Communist Menace -- this was many many years ago) I could no more perform these tasks than I could turn lead into gold. There was another test which had one look at a shape and determine what it would look like if it were rotated 79 degrees(or words to that effect).

I am sure that somewhere in the recesses of the Pentagon there is a file with my name on it which is stamped "Never let this one have anything to do with fighting the Communist Menace." A wise decision, given that I'm a pacifist and all.

Seriously, this abstract helps me understand my diagnosis more clearly. Thanks.

so for them stimulants would work best, correct? If Adderall wasn't working, what else should they try?

Hm, that's interesting. I read a description of "SCT" here before, but it was probably not as well-developed a description, because it had too many discrepancies from my own case to make it sound applicable. Now however, this theory of being ADD as something separate from ADHD sounds quite reasonable. Individuals with ADD, although typically shy, may engage in risk-taking and thrill-seeking activities, such as bungee jumping or riding roller coasters, as ways to experience a level of engagement they have difficulty sustaining in their daily lives.That's one of those contradictory things about me that I've always hoped to understand.

I do hope these studies really get somewhere, because my feelings of not really belonging anywhere tend to even apply to being among many ADHD people.

-A significant subset are hypoactive and sluggish and have slow response speeds. More time to process both input and output.



-Primary deficit in working memory, especially prominent in auditory processing because of the demands it places on working memorySometimes I'm just not sure what I heard. It takes me longer to get it. I may have to look at it or hear it several times.



-Tend to be overely self-conscious
First time I have heard this related to ADHD but it is very true.



-Social problems because too passive, shy, or withdrawn
More likely to be introverted
-Internalizing disorders, such as anxiety or depression, are somewhat more common in children with ADD than those with ADHD. ADD children tend to be socially isolated or withdrawn.There is something else here...an immaturity that I had as a kid. I'd be playing with younger kids but still had impulse control problems especially as I got older. Quietly pleasant pre-school, but was an emotionally charged teeenager. I don't think that was all enviornment.



Reading and language deficits and problems with mental mathematical calculations are more commonly comorbid with ADD than with ADHD.
I see that in myself and others.



-A significant percentage are not helped by methylphenidate.
Most respond positively to methylphenidate in moderate to high doses. Those who are helped by methylphenidate often do best at low doses. A significant subset are helped by amphetamines rather than methylphenidate. Amphetamines affect both the reuptake and release of catecholamines. A marked deficit in the release of DA and NE might cause sluggishness and underarousal.I would very much like to have this explained to me.



-People with ADD are not so much easily distracted as easily bored. Their problem lies more in motivation than in inhibition.
I use the computer as a way to perk up my interest/ motivation level in the morning and afternoon.



-Individuals with ADD, although typically shy, may engage in risk-taking and thrill-seeking activities as ways to experience a level of engagement they have difficulty sustaining in their daily lives.
-A primary disturbance in prefrontal cortex is implicated.
-The primary neural circuit that is affected may be a frontal–parietal one.
I would like to hear this explained.



-The 7-repeat allele polymorphism of the DRD4 gene is more strongly linked to ADD than to ADHD. This is consistent with the centrality of prefrontal cortex in ADD because the D4 DA receptor is present in prefrontal cortex but not in the striatum in humans.This also.



One thing not mentioned here is erratic retrival of long term memory. I have seen my mom stumble..grasping for words or ideas. I do this all the time, even with spelling. The word is not there...I can't even sometimes think of the first two letters...and then pop...the whole word is there.

Scuro....I feel as though that was written by me. It fits me to a T!
Addy hasn't helped...guess I should try a higher dosage.

Maybe a higher dosage... The studies suggest we don't have the same success rate with meds. Try a different stim or even lower your dose. :eek: Research would back up both approaches.
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I've been thinking some more about those points.
Tend to be overely self-conscious - does not equate with this -> Social problems because too passive, shy, or withdrawn.

I am often self conscious in one on one discussions. My eyes only feel confomfortable in holding a gaze with children or people that I generally love. It's not an issue of shyness because this can happen with people that I am familiar with. And it comes on like a wave...sometimes things are okay and then I feel very akward.

...and why the problem with long term memory? Does that really have anything to do with Active Working memory?

It's VERY important to remember that SCT is in a theorectical and research phase. It's not the officially accepted standard at this point. Maybe someday, but if you go to your doctor and try to talk about SCT you likely won't get very far.

Even if it does become officially recognized, it isn't like if you are ADHD/Pi today, you will automatically be relabled SCT. Some Pi would become SCT and some would be relabled combined.

If you are interested in the newest research, then look at SCT, but if you come here trying to learn how to cope with and treat your condition, the SCT path is probably not going to be much use to you at this point, just ignore it for now.

Glad to see you again unleashed...I hadn't seen you post in a while. I missed your thoughtful posts.
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Yes, SCT is not listed in the DSM4 which was published in 1994. The next edition is planned for 2011. Is it important that we not talk about these kids until this category is possibly listed in 2011 or beyond?

I don't think the diagnostic labeling is the major issue. For instance, Andrew's mom doesn't really care what her child is labeled with as long as he gets the best service and treatment possible.

What is important, is providing best practices for these children. At school where I work these kids, this group is a clear and distinct from other ADHDers. Do I write SCT on these kids IEP's? No, but I know that generally, these "foggy" kids have a unique set of problems not related to classic ADHD. Typically they have true processing difficulties and memory retrieval difficulties. I see this everyday. Am I simply to ignore this and not provide special accommodations for these kids because these issues are not typically an ADHD problem? That would be a little backwards.

My philosophy is to provide the best service possible based on current info and best practices suggested by current research. Slap my wrists if you must but what matters is to do the best job possible.

I have no issue with doing the best job possible. I'm just concerned about confusing labels.

I came here newly diagnoses as ADHD-pi, I started reading SCT posts. So I thought I was SCT. The dose of my medication wasn't right at first, and I was reading how the meds aren't always effective against SCT. So I started to get discouraged because I thought I'd finally be able to deal with my problem, and here I was reading information saying I didn't have what I thought I had, and since the meds weren't working well, I was problably out of luck.

Then I read what Barkley actually wrote, his idea of 'combined type' was different than the DSM definition. If you had any impulsive/hyperactive symptoms at all, Barkley would consider you combined, whereas you need 6 under the DSM. So then I realized I was ADHD after all, not SCT. After that I regained hope and started making progress with the meds.

So that's the reason I'm picky about posts that suggest that ADHD-pi is a separate disorder, because it's not so cut and dried.

....because it's not so cut and dried.
Nope...it's tricky and complicated. Do not attempt to do this at home.

Then again, if you go to a Doctor, they may have no idea what you are talking about anyways. I wish I could say that you just need to find a professional who has expertise in this area, but that is not always possible.

<p>Just came across the info on Sluggish Cognitive Tempo this week, and am quite sure if I could find a time machine and drag my 7 year old self in to see Dr. Barkley he'd be using that child of many years ago as his poster boy.</p>
<p>However, as I am now an adult, without access to such time machine, and more than a little frustrated with the lack of info on what works for Adults with ADHD, I am wondering if any one here has any links to effective strategies, tactics, compensations, approaches or treatments, other than medication, specific to Adults with SCT. Nothing against meds, I'm on a stimulant and it helps, but not enough for me to be functional and stable. </p>
<p>Am looking through the other topics on treatment, but every thing I've found so far has been very generalized, or honestly reads more like a sales pitch for a coach, rather than a treatment module. I'm trying to find a framework of what works and why. Thanks for any pointers or info any one may share.</p>

Wow. Thank you for that post.

To follow up to my own question on what treatment modules/strategies are helpful for those with ADD-SCT, a chance conversation brought me to look at the symptoms and problems those coming off crystal meth addiction often experience. While the symptoms are not fully congruent, there are enough parallels (easily bored, low energy, low motivation, difficulty concentrating, difficulty with multi-variable problem solving, increase in anxiety) to make me wonder if some of the treatment methodology used might be of benefit for those with this sub-form of ADHD/ADD. Does any one know if there is any research or information on Motivational Interviewing, Motivational Enhancement Therapy (MET), and/or Rewards/Contingency Management for treatment of ADHD/ADD? Anything specific on Problem Oriented Cognitive Behavorial Therapy? Again, I find very vague and general statements, but little in the way of "how to do it" or "why it works". Please post if you come across anything. Thanks.

Holy Crap!!! When I read the Wikipedia explination of SCT, it was a big relief. There may not be much known about it, but at least I have an explaination of why my brain isn't working as fast as I want it to.

I am going to the doctor tomarrow and see what he thinks about this.

I've run out of meds waiting for my controlled substance to make its way through bureaucratic mess of state laws and insurance rules, and to reassure myself that I am really not a criminal for using amphetamine salts, decided to check up on the status of add/adhd in the public opinion. Came across SCT at Wikipedia, and now my whole life makes sense! I'd like to share my treatment experiences:

Adderall: Generic adderal is my treatment of choice. For me it takes care of the Slugishness and the lack of motivation. It does not help the working memory, or mixed up logic, but, but it motivates me to concentrate on whatever work I'm doing for long enough to work through the memory problems.

Strattera and Caffeine (I mean each individually, not together) take care of the sluggishness, but do nothing for motivation, and tend to leave me in a very uncomfortable restless state.

ajterreault: Methamphetamines being similar to the dextroamphetamines and amphetamines which make up adderall, I often feel I am no better than a meth addict, only I get my drugs legally. I have to believe that a good number of meth addicts have some sort of add or something like it only dont have the resources to diagnose is, thus self medicate with meth. In that case the those symptoms may have been there before the addict even started using meth.... i could be wrong.

So when is "Sluggish Cognitive Tempo" going to have its own subforum on here? This is exactly me.

I have no motivation,sluggish and always tired. I am quite, introvert, shy and suffer from social anxiety. I am terrible with mathmatics once I get to multiplication.

Those symptoms are me 100%. That is the answer I have been trying to find for the past 24yrs.

I am the complete opposite of your normal ADHDer. I brought all the paperwork on this to my therapist today and he is going to send the recommendation to my family doctor to let me try adderall.

Hey guys! I started a topic about this awhile back in the Scientific forum:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41839

The general consensus (as of now) seems to be that while SCT is probably an accurate sub-group, the treatment for it is pretty much = ADHD-PI (i.e. stimulants) so there's really no reason to split them apart.

I think the main thing reason why they need to be split is the hyperactivity symptom; generally ADHD is in the public mind as the disorder where you're hyper and can't sit still.

For those of us with SCT/ADHD-PI, it's hard to tell somebody that you have ADHD and they say "Wait...but you're not hyperactive? You're just making up excuses for your laziness."

I can't recall how many times I've heard that over and over and over. I think if SCT is made/labeled 'separate' it would be mainly to distinguish those of us with "ADD" instead of saying we have "ADHD". I think it was good for them to lump them all together initially when the disorder was still be discussed and researched - but now that it's pretty established I think they need to really delve into the different types of the disorder.

I mean, just like diabetes - they all have issues with insulin, but that doesn't mean you lump them together - the have type 1, type 2, etc. And for us it should be the same thing - we all have issues with attention defecit, but some of us are hyperactive (ADHD), some of us grow out it (Adult ADHD), and some us were never hyper to begin with (ADD/ADHD-PI/SCT).

I hope the adderall works for you! If you search the Adderall board specifically, you will see that it helped a lot of people in the way you are looking for it to help you.

SCT seems to describe me fairly well also, but a lot of what it describes also goes along with some auto-immune disorders I have that cause severe fatigue and other things that then lead to the shyness, lack of motivation, et cetera. So it's complicated and I'm trying to figure out where I really fit.

As I said in your other post, though, the Adderall didn't help me with energy, and I am assuming it's becuase it's not only trying to work against the ADD but also the other causes of fatigue, and I just need something conjunction to create a one-two punch that might actually help.

Children with combined-type ADHD have many of the above symptoms, but they also have great difficulty sitting still (APA, 1994).I am not "the complete opposite" of anybody with ADHD. The study isn't even suggesting "complete opposite", its suggesting "differences". I agree, there are differences, otherwise there would be no need to make any differentiations at all.

-A significant percentage are not helped by methylphenidate.
Most respond positively to methylphenidate in moderate to high doses. Those who are helped by methylphenidate often do best at low doses. A significant subset are helped by amphetamines rather than methylphenidate.
I can take methylphenidate, or I can take the amphetamine class medication dexedrine...and ONLY dexedrine. I know plenty of combined and hyperactives who cannot take methylphenidates either, who also respond only to amphetamines of one type or another. This is definitely nothing that could be considered a cut-and-dried issue.

I tend to think that at the present time, the following type of thing also carries a lot of weight and bearing on the issue:

It's not been substantiated as a "separate" disorder.

Therefore, ADHD-PI type remains as is.
Research isn't personal; it's either valid & reliable over the long haul or it isn't.
22 yrs of concentrated study,including the week I spent with Russ Barkley, have shaped my opinion.

I'm a Licensed Psychologist in Minnesota with a Master's Degree...

Methamphetamines being similar to the dextroamphetamines and amphetamines which make up adderall, I often feel I am no better than a meth addict, only I get my drugs legally. I have to believe that a good number of meth addicts have some sort of add or something like it only dont have the resources to diagnose is, thus self medicate with meth. In that case the those symptoms may have been there before the addict even started using meth.... i could be wrong. Gilly, from what I have read, long term crystal meth use has been associated with lesions and other physical damage to the brain, mostly in the frontal lobes, and sometimes permanent damage to the parts of the brain associated with the production of dopamine. As the frontal lobe and neurotransmitter issues are associated with ADHD/ADD, I am not surprised this would lead to similar symptoms, just as traumatic brain injury can. Indeed, I've found a few articles that indicate they are experimenting with using Adderall as part of treatment for this particular addiction, reinforcing the relationship. Whether or not some one had undiagnosed ADHD/ADD prior to the addiction really is irrelevant. What matters is simply - do these things cross-over and help us?

Frankly, I am at the point where I really don't care what causes ADHD/ADD, whether it be neurotransmitters, mis-wired frontal lobes, hemorrhoids, Chinese toothpaste, or special radio signals beamed by satellites launched by the New World Order (tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek). All I really care about is what can I do about it. Pills help some, but they don't solve everything. Hence, my questions, what have people tried, and what has worked? What you and others have said about Adderall I found signifigant and helpful, and am looking forward to talking that drug over with my doctor very soon. Found some interesting articles today on Modafinil, which I want to look into further. The few blurbs I've found on Social Skills Training (SST) being helpful for those with ADD-SCT point toward another avenue, and I'll continue to look for anything else that might help, though I'll want several peer-reviewed double-blind studies as evidence showing aluminum foil head covers really work before adding that to my wardrobe.


Like many here, I am extremely frustrated with the problems that come with ADHD/ADD and how they have impacted on my life. I am even more frustrated with how little there is on what you can do about them. At least with message boards such as this, we can share what we know. Not much, but is something.

Well as someone who has ADHD-PI/SCT and has been on adderall for over a week. I can say I have noticed a slight difference in myself.

I am still on a low dosage as I tiltrate up, but here is what I have noticed so far.

Pros
- Eyes no longer feel heavy throughout the day.
- Increased motivation, although due to my low dosage, I start slacking by the time afternoon comes around.
- Increased Energy.
- A little more in the mood to talk to people. I think this has to do with the increased energy
- Social skills are still suffering. I still get bad anxiety. I am thinking I will probably have to do some Social Skills training to teach myself all the skills I failed to take in as I grew up.
- Increased Focus.
- I am finally waking up early in the mornings (7am-8am) with no problems at all, this is a big change coming from someone who used to sleep in atleast till 10:30 every morning. Now I get out of bed no problem.
- Decreased Appetite. This has really helped me with my over eating problem. I used to eat atleast 2 huge plates of spagetti at dinner time. Now its only 1 plate and there might be a little I have to dump in the garbage. So I am still able to eat, it has just helped me to not over eat. Hence I am starting to loose the pounds fast. :)

Cons
- Elevated blood pressure.
- Increased Anxiety.
- I had my first pannick attack the other day. (I'm pretty sure the increased blood pressure had something to do with this.)
- A few muscle twitches.

So how have I managed these symptoms? The doc prescribed me Guanfacine and it has eliminated all the bad symptoms caused from the adderall. My only issue now is I need my adderall dose increased because the guanfacine tends to overpower it and I can feel tired sometimes throughout the day.

I recognise myself totally in the SCT / ADHD-PI characteristics. There is one thing that I wonder about .. process information more slowly .. how does that work if your IQ is in the gifted range .. say > 130? Generally, a high IQ is associated with a proficiency in analytic manipulations .. isn't that the opposite of processing slowly?
I am trying to put into words how that works with me. Kinda hard. I find I am quite good at holding complex abstract ideas in my head. I can grasp those almost intuitively. But, at the same time, I have great difficulty to follow reasoning, like in math class. This last thing has seriously impaired my academic performance, especially after grade 8, and made it impossible to follow lectures. I dropped out of university after one semester .. despite being tested higly gifted and trying really hard.

I am curious how this works. In what sense is the ability to hold these ideas in your head differ from processing information? Does the working memory deficit that is mentioned play a role? (it feels like that might be the case)

And how is it with the fact that ADD people are said to have "many, fast thought, jumping all over the place" .. compared to this slow processing? I certainly feel like my brain is like a sped-up pinball machine, but somehow, *something* is slow and sluggish at the same time. I am physically sluggish/slow too.

@Jeremynd .. how's it going with the adderall?

love & light :)

I have no idea what it means. Ive read the DSM and various neuropsychology and LD textbooks thru [more than a few times], and truly have no idea what this SCT thing is.

I tend to think "SCT" is a made up term.

It might be something translated from another language, meaning: "slow processing speed" ?

QueensU, I do not quite understand your post. Are you questioning if "Sluggish Cognative Tempo" actually exists? ADD-SCT is currently a provisional diagnosis that is under debate and review for the next edition of the DSM. However, a quick search on Google brings up over twenty thousand hits, most pointing to articles published in medical journals on the subject. For a quick summary, you can see the Wikipedia article on Sluggish Cognative Tempo at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_cognitive_tempo with another excellant summary found at this location http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0902/is_5_32/ai_n6234463<http: findarticles.com="" p="" articles="" mi_m0902="" is_5_32="" ai_n6234463=""></http:> (http://%3Ca%20href=%22http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0902/is_5_32/ai_n6234463%22%3ELookSmart%27s%20FindArticles%20-%20The%20relation%20between%20sluggish%20cognitive %20tempo%20and%20DSM-IV%20ADHD%3C/a%3E%3Cbr%3E)
If you are need of a book, Dr. Russell Barkely's "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: A Handbook for Diagnosis and Treatment" (http://www.russellbarkley.org/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-handbook.htm) includes some information on this sub-type.

Regarding my own experience, I've recently switched to Adderall from Concerta, and am at a dosage comparable to what I was at with Concerta. I find that Adderall seems to take slightly longer to kick in, but so far provides a similar level of benefit, as far as not feeling sleepy through out the day, less forgetful, more able to stay on task, and more cognizant of time. However, I do not feel that I am getting the maximum benefit I could, and still struggle with intiating tasks, dealing with boredom, and motivation. At the suggestion of my psychiatrist, I am also taking Nordic Natural's Ultimate Omega-3 suppliment at three 1000mg capsules in the morning with breakfast, which I believe has offered some additional help with the depressive-like symptoms associated with ADD-SCT. However, while I am cautiously encouraged by this, I still am of the belief that some practical interventions and skill building are needed.

I found Luthien's experience to be very similar to mine, as far as the ability to deal with abstract concepts and be considered quick in some respects, yet have the difficulty with math and slowness. I think this may be a cultural bias in that was tend to equate speed of thought with intelligence, while forgetting that many who were known in the past as very intelligent, were not always the fastest. Einstein is the example that many will point to, with the exceptionally long time it took him to speak, and his own struggles (including being labeled "slow") in his elemenatry-education years, yet his creativity and brilliance with abstract concepts was exceptional.

My own experience has me wonder if perhaps those in this SCT subtype while intellectually as capable as those with out this issue, find it harder to evaluate some information as quickly, and develop from it appropriate expectations. The fact that SCT is seen as a developmental issue, i.e., it takes these people more time, but they do get there, seems to go hand in hand with this.

I personally would not ever rely on Wiki as any kind of definitive "expert source"...the contributions are made by whomever wishes to contribute.

Difficulties with mathematics, and processing the written word can often be expplained by LDs. Nothing about the ADHD DX, no matter what type or whatever you wish to call it, rules out a LD. Certainly muddies up this particular puddle of water, IMHO of course.

This is somewhat off topic but this seriously has me perplexed. Perhaps it is my "slow processing speed" but I find the responses regarding Wikipedia confusing. While I do agree with the idea that relying on Wikipedia for "authorative content" would be a fallacy considering how it operates, refering to it in a discussion board as providing a helpful summary seems to me to be an appropriate use. If Wikipedia cannot be used for such a purpose, then what value does it have at all?

ADHD/ADD is not something you self-diagnose. What information can be found online, in books and magazines and in other media is information a patient can discuss with their doctor, and hopefully helps provide avenues of effective treatment. Science and Medicine are not disiplines that are static and unchanging. New ideas, infomation and tools are constantly being developed and researched. Any educated consumer is served by gathering what information can be found and critically examining that information. More than once, a patient has become aware of some new treatment or new procedure their doctor was not aware of. Most practioners I know of, welcome having these things brought to their attention, and discussing if what was found would be helpful to the patient.

Regarding those who have never heard of Sluggish Cognative Tempo. Obviously, you now have. Perhaps I'm being over-literal, but are you trying to imply that if you haven't heard of it before it must not exist? Therefore every possible illness or disorder that Medicine will address has already been discovered and defined? If Sluggish Cognative Tempo does not seem to apply to you, okay, good for you. Do you lose out if those of us it does seem to apply to discuss it?

I am seriously baffled by how the idea that there may be a distinctive subtype of ADHD-I seems to arrouse a religous passion over whether it is or is not a proper diagnosis.

This is a support forum, and everyone is encouraged to be mindful of the guidelines when responding to threads.

While I do agree with the idea that relying on Wikipedia for "authorative content" would be a fallacy considering how it operates, refering to it in a discussion board as providing a helpful summary seems to me to be an appropriate use. If Wikipedia cannot be used for such a purpose, then what value does it have at all?


I think that there may be a difference in perception here.

I believe the reference to Wikipedia was used by echo5tango as a source to explain what SCT is for those who do not know - however the response from CF that Wikipedia was not a authoritative resource in psychiatric conditions was made so that readers would see the Wikipedia in the proper light {informative perhaps but not authoritative}.

I do know even in debate communities using Wikipedia is considered a poor source to back up ones presentation because of the nature of the contributions.


OKay next point is:

My questions tp the seperate condition supporters are if inattenve ADD is really a seperate condition:


1)Why would hyperactive ADD traits be replaced by inattentive traits as a person ages

2)Why would the same medication and treatments used for hyperactive and combined ADDers also work for inattentive ADDers as well.

3)Why don't the medication non-responders fall exclusive into the inattentive sub-type as opposed to following the population trend - meaning that most medication non-responder are combined simply because most ADDers are combined - inattentive some time do not respond but the number correlate with the percentage of the ADD population the represent

4)To what benefit is changing the name from ADD-PI to SCT-> Really does it make a difference seeing the conditions respond to the same treatments. :confused:






I am seriously baffled by how the idea that there may be a distinctive subtype of ADHD-I seems to arouse a religious passion over whether it is or is not a proper diagnosis.


First of all religion is a banned topic so I can't touch it {this is meant to be funny}

Second of all SCT isn't a proper diagnosis as of this writing { this isn't}

answer your question as to why this SCT idea arouses such a passionate response - seriously there are several possibilities

First reason the SCT raises such passions in those who are not inattentive - because you are basically saying to the rest of us who are not inattentive " We are different from you so you can't be part of our little group, because only "people with purple eyes" belong to this group"

Second reason - reality I see the entire SCT issue as adding confusion to a subject that is murky enough as it is - personally I am looking to simplify not create more confusion.

The third reason will be addressing why some of the respondents are inattentive themselves.

If you will step back for a moment with me in the objective realm - using only the English language as a reference point what are you really saying when you say "SCT is a separate condition" You are saying " we aren't ADD at all"

Some with the inattentive ADD diagnosis do not wish to be separated from the ADD community they now call home - they finally found a place where they belong and frankly those who purpose that inattentive become a separate condition are threating to yank that away from them - which btw would engender strong emotions in those who have searched a life time for a place to belong thus the reason behind the "religious passions"

{so the reasons are really very obvious on many levels okay they are for me - well so much for hyperactive ADDers being unable to have insight -shrug}

I do hope my post helps answer as many question as it generates- :)

From what I understood with the articles I read they seemed to suggest that Sluggish Cognitive Tempo was ADHD-I, but I really don't read everything and I am most likely repeating meadd823's post but I figured I would constructively add something since I thought I did already, even though I had to google it because I had never heard of it.

<!-- ================================================== ===== --><!-- Created by AbiWord, a free, Open Source wordprocessor. --><!-- For more information visit http://www.abisource.com. --><!-- ================================================== ===== --> An interesting response meadd823...

The way you frame the Wikipedia usage does make sense and serves to make the thrust of Crazy~Feet's response much clearer to me. Perhaps it makes even more sense as I had not viewed this as a "debate" forum, but a "support" forum.


I have little interest in arguing if ADHD or ADD exists, nor the respective validity of the subtypes and differentiations (I believe Dr. Amen argues there are six different types of ADHD/ADD). My interest lies solely on what works in helping those with ADD-SCT, a framework that I have found fits for me, and my practitioner agrees with. However, to answer the explicit and implied questions...

Regarding whether or not ADD-SCT is a "separate" condition. First, let me quote some one well known on this forum and who has an acknowledged level of expertise.

Not again!


This keeps coming up. There is a common misperception that all ADHD Inattentive people have this Sluggish Cognitive Tempo or SCT.


The truth is, only some inattentives fall into this SCT group (maybe 30%-50%) and it may or may not be a separate disorder (depending on which research papers you read)


Also, the way to distinguish SCT from plain ADHD inattentive isn't well defined yet.

In other words, as currently defined, some one with ADD-SCT fits under the ADHD-I subtype, but not every one that has ADHD-I would be ADD-SCT. The research that I have found since Unleashed made the statement above back in 2005 has gone farther to hone and define the symptomatology of ADD-SCT, but over all, the thrust that SCT is subset of ADHD-I and does not fit all of those with ADHD-I remains constant.

So are we then are we "ADD at all?"

Well, I guess that comes down too how wide is the umbrella? My understanding is that one of Russell Barkley's more controversial assertions is that ADHD and ADD are in-fact subtypes of what have been labeled "Executive Function Disorders" and which may include Aspergers, Autism, Bipolar, and OCD. All of which have overlaps and similarities in symptomatology and impact. So, if what label is on your medical chart is important to you, then perhaps this opens up for the choice to either see this as an expanded family, with variations and differing aspects, but still under one big tent, or you (and this is a general you, not any one in specific) can look for what makes you different from others and try to fit in with an exclusive little tribe that requires everyone to conform to one specific title.

I would find it troubling if we have made ADHD/ADD into an identity, where we only want to talk to those who have it, or only allow them to be part of the group. ADHD/ADD is a diagnosis, that is, a definition of difficulties and problems that need to be addressed. It is not a group nor a person. It confers no special status, nor does it bestow some exclusivity to any of us. I have seen people on this forum refer to "us Hyperactives" as if we all shared that in common. Those with SCT to battle would probably find that phrasing exclusionary, as they are hypoactive and could only wish for the energy those who experience hyperactivity try to focus, control and contain. To pound the point home, while we may share some characteristics, and have some things in common, there are many differences. We take different meds, we use different compensations, and adjust as individuals to how this disorder affects us as individuals. There is not one drug that works for all, there is not one intervention or compensation that works for all. We are all not the same.


Acknowledging ADD-SCT may fit some does not diminish the ADHD community, but does allow for the differences that individuals experience to be accepted and acknowledged. We all do not have to be the same in order to get along, share, and support one another, accept and understand that what applies and works for one, may not apply and work for all. To be blunt, if the ADHD community is so insecure that it is threatened by the idea a very small percentage of those labeled ADHD-I may have a slightly different disorder, then that speaks to their issues, and not the validity of ADD-SCT.

In none of the reading I have done since coming across ADHD or ADD-SCT have I ever found anything that says "this disorder is completely unlike anything ever seen before in the history of mankind". Indeed, what I see often are articles, such as "Sluggish Cognitive Tempo Predicts a Different Pattern of Impairment in the Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, Predominantly Inattentive Type" that compare and contrast ADHD and ADD-SCT, and state where they have similarities and differences. If we want to set up ADHD and ADD cliques, then I would guess articles such as that could be seen as a way to divide people up. I think most researchers would vomit at finding such a use for their work, as they are more likely interested in what is going to help people have better lives.

The question is not "does the ADHD community lose out if ADD-SCT is found to be a distinct disorder?" but, "what information can be shared and found helpful for both?" That does not require that we all be alike. Nor does it mean that any of us should limit where we look for answers to only what is provided by neurology and psychiatry, or even be content with what is in the DSM-IV-R. One of the positive characteristics noted among those with ADHD is a wide range of interests, and being able to look for ideas and similarities in dissimilar information is a strength to be used for our benefit. Others do. Indeed, one of the most active ideas in psychology right now deals with the ideas of "mindfulness" which has its roots in Zen Buddhism, a tradition centuries old. As I pointed out in an early post, some of symptoms that heavy crystal meth users describe are very similar to the SCT framework, and there are several interventions being tried to deal with those issues, including giving those people Addreall. It seems foolish to me to say, well, they are crystal meth addicts and therefore it is of no help. What makes more sense is to say, do they have a similar problem, is what is tried helpful, and can I do something similar? Something that may help some one with hyperactivity, may not help some one dealing with hypoactivity, but something that deals with disorganization may help both.

Regarding how ADD-SCT differs from ADHD, that already has been addressed by scruo's posts at the start of this thread, the Wikipedia summary, and Adele Diamond's article that scruo quoted, and over a hundred articles you can find by looking for "Sluggish Cognitive Tempo" on Google Scholar or PubMed. That those with SCT respond to drugs differently, seem to benefit from different interventions as children, and exhibit differing issues, in my opinion, cannot be made more clear. Whether or not any one makes an individual choice to accept the findings of this research is a matter for that person alone. None of these things make any one with ADD-SCT "better" than some one struggling with ADHD, nor do they mean the similarities both share are any less valid. No one has to lose out by refining what differing individuals struggle with. It comes down to how accepting and supporting a community choses to be. How supportive of those who find the ADD-SCT framework helpful this forum will be is up to its members and administration.

As far as the changes those with ADHD experience in symptoms undergo as they get older, that is beyond what I can address. Indeed, that seems to be something that would require research into developmental neurology. Frankly, it seems only tangentially related to ADD-SCT, as those who are dealing with SCT as adults do not seem to indicate they have experienced much in the way of change in symptoms from childhood to adulthood. By accident, meadd823, you seem to have inadvertently pointed out another difference between these types. How does it feel to have added fuel to the fire? :eek:


Again, I actually have little interest in a debate on if SCT exists or not. As I said in one of my earlier posts, it fits me. While this thread has been moved over to "Diagnosis" from the Adult area, I would like to see it return to the original theme that ericdl58 opened it up with back in 2003, and which I also asked in my first post. What have those who have SCT found helpful in treatment? Honestly, to me, that is really all that matters.

The way you frame the Wikipedia usage does make sense and serves to make the thrust of Crazy~Feet's response much clearer to me. Perhaps it makes even more sense as I had not viewed this as a "debate" forum, but a "support" forum.


Perhaps it is the meaning of debate you misunderstand - I find this to be very common. You are presently engaged in a debate on a support forum. Debates occur here on a regular basis.

Debating is simply a civilized rational way of presenting two opposing opinions. Debating requires intellect, sound reasoning, and the ability to be persuasive - debating is NOT arguing however it is disagreeing but in a civilized respectful manner.





"us Hyperactives"

I often use this phrase to show which sub-type I fall into while acknowledging that not all with in the ADD population will experience {what ever} - "us hyperactives" isn't presented as being separate or removed from the ADD population but it is acknowledging that some individuals with ADD are NOT hyperactive. For me as a person it is an attempt at brevity as some of my post can be um ur lengthy.






To pound the point home, while we may share some characteristics, and have some things in common, there are many differences. We take different meds, we use different compensations, and adjust as individuals to how this disorder affects us as individuals. There is not one drug that works for all, there is not one intervention or compensation that works for all. We are all not the same.




"We" meaning the entire ADD population or we as in SCT sub-type, or is it both - sorry I read solely in context, individual words have no meaning for me so I may have to ask for clarifications that may seem obvious to many other readers. I shall pick the meaning I think you mean {oh boy}

We are all individuals of this I agree - no two hyperactive ADDers are exactly alike any more than two inattentive or combined ADDers of this I agree. However we all have BA = boredom aversion - we simply can not apply our selves to the unstimulating mundane boring to the point of mental/physical death by merely "willing" our selves to - while inattentive ADDers are often accused of being lazy hyperactive ADDers and often seen as being rebellious while both are often accused of being "uncaring" / "unwilling / uncooperative/ self centered/ ect. . . .which can set up an entire unpleasant chain of events.




To be blunt, if the ADHD community is so insecure that it is threatened by the idea a very small percentage of those labeled ADHD-I may have a slightly different disorder, then that speaks to their issues, and not the validity of ADD-SCT.

Please do remember

The ADD community is made up of individuals who are reacting according to their individual feelings and experience - I presented several reasons in response to your question that is all I did.





You stated the point very well {and concise too} IN my experience the lack of clarity as to weather or not SCT is a part of the ADD population is the one of the things that baffles most and causes the great amount of "debates" and emotional reactions about this subject of SCT.


are we then are we "ADD at all?"


Well, I guess that comes down too how wide is the umbrella?

Yes enquiring minds want to know how big if the umbrella any way?

My point is the SCT boundaries are ill defined at best - which only serves to confuse the ADD condition.





I think most researchers would vomit at finding such a use for their work, as they are more likely interested in what is going to help people have better lives.


I think most researchers would be ambivalent - their jobs are all about identifying differences with in groups however even they can create a lot of controversies with in the general population if their findings are not presented correctly and in a tactful manner {Barkely is guilty of presenting things in a tactless manner IMHO} -

Responses are a reaction not only to what you say but how you say it - as a dyslexic I know this all too well.






It comes down to how accepting and supporting a community choses to be. How supportive of those who find the ADD-SCT framework helpful this forum will be is up to its members and administration.


The administration does it's best to provide a free thinking forum where each member {even ADDF members who happen to also be staff members} is entitled to their own personal opinion and feelings as long as that opinion is communicated with respect to other members. This is why debates are allowed however flaming is not.

One of the largest supplies of information can be found in a debate done right - as two opposing opinions are presented in a civilized manner each carrying their own line of reasoning and often coming complete with documentation and sources.







As far as the changes those with ADHD experience in symptoms undergo as they get older, that is beyond what I can address. Indeed, that seems to be something that would require research into developmental neurology. Frankly, it seems only tangentially related to ADD-SCT, as those who are dealing with SCT as adults do not seem to indicate they have experienced much in the way of change in symptoms from childhood to adulthood. By accident, meadd823, you seem to have inadvertently pointed out another difference between these types. How does it feel to have added fuel to the fire?


No you said it right the first time = there is not enough research to address this question at present time. Besides NOT ALL ADDers symptoms change from childhood to adult hood only the difficulties they cause - remember my comment was about hyperactive ADDers having their hyperactive traits turn into inattentive traits My example wasn't about the entire ADD population - many with the combined subtype do not experience any changes in their ADD either - besides changes only seem to affect hyperactive traits and those changes occur most in those of us who have hyperactive impulsive symptoms apart from which sub-type we fall into - don't forget many with the combined ADD type have hyperactive traits while other combined ADDers do not.

Oh yea NOT being able to answer my question does not constitute "making a point" nor does turning around the evidence {I will admit it is a nice maneuver though- it might work except I have used it too often myself}



According to your sources some of the inattentive would fall into the SCT category while others would not - what evidence is their that this is a separate condition in itself apart from simply having a secondary condition in addition to ADD? Bi-polar combined with ADD can drastically change the appearance of ADD even though bi-polar and ADD are two separate conditions.





The amount of difference between some one who qualifies for SCT and some one who does not can be one impulsive trait?????? Also SCTers I have read on this thread take the same schedule two narcotics the rest of the ADD population does????? SCTers take these medications so they can focus {just like I do} while claiming not to have ADD???? This equals the late great wtf????? Your own discussions and exchanges create the doubts and questions. Different symptoms are not causing any heated exchanges I believe it is attitudes about those differences that ignites the bad memories and creates conflicts - I am not pointing fingers I am saying before "pounding in a point" intentions may want to be checked at the door - remember I came on this thread only to answer a question you had and try to clear up a misunderstanding because I could see both sides - I asked a few questions of my own - I believe I had four maybe five - and the reaction is????? {point pounding?}

Now to close the meadd823 way -

Bottom line - To date there is not enough scientific evidence to indicate SCT to be a separate diagnosis unto itself apart from ADD-PI,{sources provided upon request - persently I have a baby kitten I have to go feed - he is screaming starvation} I do understand research is still being done. Although some "experts" maybe pushing for SCT to be included in the next issue of the DSMV at present SCT like Dr. Amen's six ADD subtypes is not recognized as a "proper diagnosis" In reality that is the only fact I need to make my point valid.

Have a good day :) - now to go feed Mr Starvation. . . . . . . :faint:

re WIKIPEDIA

Wikipedia is NOT an authoritative source.

Recently, the entry for George Bush was hacked to describe him as a "Muppet in a monkey suit".

Funny, perhaps, but it just shows how people with biases or non-authoritative information can 'hack' the site.

Upon searching, I do not find "real" scientific journal titles (psychology, neurscience, psychiatry) describing this term as a real current diagnosis.

Sorry.

Go search MEDLINEplus yourself, I guess. (I pulled "0" entries.)

Have you had testing? (These results may uncover the mystery of this SCT thing.)

I'm betting my money on it being a sleep/wake/arousal (raphe nucleus? ARAS?) problem or an EF deficit or a 'processing disorder'.

In at least three different posts on this thread, I have stated clearly that my interest in this forum and thread is for those who find the SCT framework to fit them, what have they found helpful as far as treatment? I have also stated, I think very clearly, that I am not interested in a debate over if SCT exists or not.

I have provided links, most of which had already been sited by others on this thread, (see the very first five posts on page one of this thread), which describe what SCT is, and provide some of the research on it.

It is very easy to find a great deal of research on Sluggish Cognitive Tempo. Google Scholar lists over five hundred articles, and the National Institute of Health's PubMed directly sites fifteen. Never mind the over twenty thousand links Google has listed, or other articles on Blackwell and other search engines. But I am not here to get into a link and citation war either. If SCT interests you, you know where to look. If it doesn't, don't waste your time.

There are specific sub-forums on this board devoted to arguing and debating over the research and definiton of disorders, including SCT. I've looked at them, they don't fit my need, so they are not where I post.

I am not here to argue over how useful or not Wikiepedia is, define the word "We" so that it clearly includes all, or speculate on what enlightenment the future of neurology will provide.

Once again - I am here to find out what works for those with SCT. If you look at the very first post on this thread, that is what the orginal theme was, and what I asked about in my very first post.

No where on this board, I have found a single person who identified with ADD-SCT saying anything disparging or derogatory about any one who does NOT have ADD-SCT, or attacking the validity of the ADHD issues. Nor has any one who states they have ADD-SCT expressed relief that they some how are not "ADHD". Indeed, they are looking for information on an ADHD/ADD board.

No one has critizied those with ADHD-Hyperactive, for having their own little group. No one has complained that those with ADHD-Combined are throwing an exclusive party. Yet, for the very few looking to get more information on Sluggish Cognitive Tempo, there is an immediate and what I find to be rather hostile, response.

The only ones who have expressed any hostility or anxiety over the SCT definition are those for whom it does not fit.

Again, as Unleashed, and others have stated, and any review of the research papers you can pull up will confirm. ADD-SCT represents at most 30 to 50 percent of those with ADHD-I. Not every one that is ADHD-I is ADD-SCT. The defintions are not equivalant. It is disingenuous at this point for any one to use them as synonyms.

To me, there is no "mystery" about SCT, other than what helps with treatment of it. It has a very clear and much more thorough definition than most of the current definitions found the DSM. My practioner who has one of several articles, research papers, and letters to academic journals he has published quoted directly in a different thread, agrees.

I have clearly stated in an earlier post that ADD-SCT is a provisional diagnosis not yet officially adopted. That does not mean it is any less valid, or that seeking information about it hurts me or any one else. Again, as I have stated previously, you do not self-diagnose ADHD, it is something that is done by a doctor in concert with the patient.

I have presented my point of view on why I find it absurd for any one to be threatened or upset that a small group of users here would be seeking information and support about ADD-SCT. Looking for what works and what support can be gained does not diminish the ADHD/ADD community at all, and may even help those with a differing diagnosis.

If some one has information on what is helpful for those with SCT, I will be interested to see what you share here. A scientific debate on some other topic I MAY engage in on a different thread if it is of interest to me. I feel no obligation to post, reply or participate in each and every discussion here, or questions not related to what I am trying to find out.

If you are interested in providing information, support and assistance, I look forward to what you have to share. That's what I came here for.

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Just heard Dr. Barkley talk about it yesterday at an LD/ADHD forum. They are still in process of researching and not much info yet. The wikipedia info is about all that was listed in the notes for the Western North Carolina Symposium's keynote speaker, Dr. Barkley himself.

Reading and language deficits and problems with mental mathematical calculations are more commonly comorbid with ADD than with ADHD.
Can someone explain to me what is meant by reading deficits? I can read outloud very fast and clear, but understanding what I'm reading at the same time is an entirely different thing. I can read extremely fast, but I usually drift off, not knowing what the text was about.

Hi everyone, this is my first posting, hope I don't violate any rules! :eyebrow:

The posts by Jeremynd and Luthien especially resonate with me. I was diagnosed with ADD back in Jan '05.....and I have read tons of stuff on the subject, trying to understand it better....and it wasn't till just LAST WEEK that I first encountered the term:

"Sluggish Cognitive Tempo"

........but it describes sooooo many facets of me, it is spooky!

Like Luthien's description, I have been "tested out" as having "a high IQ" (for whatever that is worth), supposedly over 140. HOWEVER, once I got past High School freshman algebra, learning math beyond that was like pulling teeth.

(I tortured and browbeat myself all the way thru Calculus III in college...failing Calc I and Calc II once each before passing....just to "prove to myself I could do it." Of course, within one week after each course was over, I probably forgot 95% of everything).

I'm super good at recalling things that "interest me," or that I "care about," or that "resonate with me"......

.......of course, how to define each of those categories is a whole 'nother story.

I often say, "my brain has a mind of its own," in the sense that I usually feel like there is something like an "inner gyroscope" in my head that has its OWN agenda about what it does and does NOT care about....and that my "conscious mind" can run itself ragged trying to "force" myself to get interested in this or that, or study this or that...but it is like "pounding sand down a rathole."

Dear Echo -

Although I can't claim any REMARKABLE improvement from my ADHD treatment attempts as of yet, I would like you to know that (if I'm remembering correctly) the SCT subtype really resonates with me as well. And I also cannot understand why anyone here would get so "passionate" about your posts regarding the subject.

I'm sorry you haven't received the kind of replies you were hoping for. I would definitely have been interested in those responses myself.

Sincerely,
Sue

Dear all,
I am a little surprised to read how much emotion this debate is generating; the mentioning of creating in- and out-groups ("purple eyes") etcetera.
For me all this is simply trying to understand myself - not about defining a group and erecting borders of any kind. When I first read about the "SCT profile" it made a lot of sense to me because it described me so well. And of course it is helpful and healing to see all this in others as well.
In the time between this post and my previous in this thread I have received a second opinion diagnosis, and this pdoc was more detailed than the previous one: severely inattentive, and not hyperactive/impulsive at all. He does not use the term SCT, but just ADHD-PI - which is totally fine with me. I don't care what the name of my label is, and I am totally happy to share thoughts, opinions and emotions with all ADD people, hyper, not hyper, what have you.

It may be that the ADHD-PI group will be subdivided in the future. But to me, that is entirely a scientific issue, and therefore an interesting subject for debate. As it is now, the group is indeed quite varied. But that is just an observation, and not something that I resent or feel bad about at all.

I am merely relieved and touched to find that there are also people under the ADD 'umbrella' who are so much like I am.
And that's all there is to it for me.

love & light,
~luthien

<p>...
<p>However, as I am now an adult, without access to such time machine, and more than a little frustrated with the lack of info on what works for Adults with ADHD, I am wondering if any one here has any links to effective strategies, tactics, compensations, approaches or treatments, other than medication, specific to Adults with SCT. Nothing against meds, I'm on a stimulant and it helps, but not enough for me to be functional and stable. </p>
<p>Am looking through the other topics on treatment, but every thing I've found so far has been very generalized, or honestly reads more like a sales pitch for a coach, rather than a treatment module. I'm trying to find a framework of what works and why. Thanks for any pointers or info any one may share.</p>

Hello,

To be frank your post interested me like no other post since almost two years!
I totally agree with your fustration about the help specific to Adults.
I agree ever more since , as a french, i have no treatment and no way to test for add...
...i don't know if i am inattentive, sluggish or whatever type of inattention deficit...
What i know is that since childhood my working memory is awfull. My calculation skills too but i not too bad in maths ...

Now past forty i have more than 20 years of tactics and compensations with this problem.
Briefly what work ? reading, playing chess ( at least trying to ... ), coffee, aspirin and vitamin C ( not all in the same time of course ), sport and manual work.
What don't work ? Alcohol !! stay away of that !!

What improvment during these years ? electronic agendas and definitively smartphones !! The youngs adults have no ideas how it was difficult to juggle with work and agenda before having the possibility to synchronise your pocket phone and your computer..

I'm currently a student at Harvard Law School and have been on adderall since 9th grade. I would absolutely describe myself as a person that perfectly fits the SCT description, which I have only learned about recently. Particularly, the "in a fog" effect is the best characterization I have ever found of my problems. Daydreaming, being socially shy (although I would say that my baseline personality, without the SCT is extroverted - leading to much internal conflict), etc. all fit my issues.

The adderall treatment has worked very well for me, at least work-wise. But it has had adverse effects on my social abilities, as I often feel a lack of emotion that makes me seem very disconnected and "stiff," for lack of a better word, to many of my peers. Since I don't take adderall on the weekends for the most part, many of my friends have mentioned to me how differently I act in social settings on those occasions.

So recently I decided to go a week in school without using adderall. While I have definitely gone for long stretches of time without use of medication (on vacations, etc.), I have never done so while in school or at work. Thus far, I'm finding that the "in the fog" effect hasn't changed a bit since I was in high school. For subjects that I find interesting, for the most part I can focus and perform well, but for other subjects the experience is very comparable to repeatedly hitting my head against a brick wall - the more I try to focus, the cloudier my head gets.

My big question is - are there any medications that have the efficacy of Adderall in treating the focusing problems of SCT without the subsequent loss of emotion that so impairs sociability? Or is there some way to use Adderall and not suffer the loss of emotion? Thanks a ton guys!

My big question is - are there any medications that have the efficacy of Adderall in treating the focusing problems of SCT without the subsequent loss of emotion that so impairs sociability? Or is there some way to use Adderall and not suffer the loss of emotion? Thanks a ton guys!
I don't have the loss of emotion on dexedrine. But then again, I've tried Adderal for a short time and it seemed quite similar to dexedrine .. although, maybe dexedrine is a bit more "mellow".

I'm the opposite of you guys. The meds seem to actually increase my emotions. And I have SCT/ADHD-I.

If ya'll want a good chemical that helps with the "fog" effect, try some ALCAR (acetyl-L-Carnitine). Stack it with a good choline source such as bitartrate or citrate, a B-complex, and some ALA (alpha lipoic acid). Last maybe some potassium.

This stack really seems to make everything more clear for me. Especially when you first start taking ALA, your vision is clearer, which only adds to the good "clear" feeling this stack gives you.

It's not a solution to the sluggishness/motivation difficulties. That's best solved with meds + therapy. Nor does it help with processing speed, per se. When I'm on it, my thoughts and task accomplishment are still slower than the average person, but everything "clicks" more, and you're just a little closer to "normal."

If you have no idea what any of that stuff is, just google "nootropics" and immerse yourself in a brave new world of brain chemicals. ;)

Luthien and Capt. Obvious - thanks for the responses! It's good to find other people to discuss this issue with it that can understand where I'm coming from.

Luthien - if you don't mind me asking, what dosage of dexedrine do you take? I take one 20mg pill of Adderall (not XR) once per day in the morning, and only when I have classes/work to do that day.

Given that the Adderall is really only effective for about 2-3 hours for me, I don't think my dosage is too high. 2-3 hours is enough time for me to get most if not all of my work done, so the dosage is probably not too low either (esp. given my concerns about side effects).

Luthien - if you don't mind me asking, what dosage of dexedrine do you take? I take one 20mg pill of Adderall (not XR) once per day in the morning, and only when I have classes/work to do that day.
I usually take 40 mg/day .. 2x10 mg spansules in the morning and 8 hrs later either 2x5mg IR & again after 4 hrs .. or another 2x10 mg spansules.

I'm not totally certain if the spansules really work 8 hrs. They seem to have an initial boost, and wear of very gradually.
Maybe it's more effective to take the IR's.

I'm the opposite of you guys. The meds seem to actually increase my emotions. And I have SCT/ADHD-I.

If ya'll want a good chemical that helps with the "fog" effect, try some ALCAR (acetyl-L-Carnitine). Stack it with a good choline source such as bitartrate or citrate, a B-complex, and some ALA (alpha lipoic acid). Last maybe some potassium.

This stack really seems to make everything more clear for me. Especially when you first start taking ALA, your vision is clearer, which only adds to the good "clear" feeling this stack gives you.

It's not a solution to the sluggishness/motivation difficulties. That's best solved with meds + therapy. Nor does it help with processing speed, per se. When I'm on it, my thoughts and task accomplishment are still slower than the average person, but everything "clicks" more, and you're just a little closer to "normal."

If you have no idea what any of that stuff is, just google "nootropics" and immerse yourself in a brave new world of brain chemicals. ;)


Do you cycle alcar? I love it, coffee+alcar+choline, but it seems to loose effectiveness quickly.

I take one 20mg pill of Adderall (not XR) once per day in the morning, and only when I have classes/work to do that day.

....

(esp. given my concerns about side effects).

Wow.... that's it? *shrugs* well, whatever works. I hate the short-acting stuff. Too many hills and valleys. I can see why it's the most addictive type (besides the fact that it's easier to smoke/snort than extended-release versions) because it really sucks when you "come down" so to speak. "Aww... is it over already? Maybe I'll have just one more...." And so begins the cycle of lameness....

But that's me.... you're not me.... so yeah. :cool:

I take 70mg Vyvanse... Great stuff, but my body seems to process it rather quickly compared to most people. It's supposed to last for 12 hours.... I can only feel it working for 6. I'm going to be lobbying my doctor to give me some smaller dosage pills along with the initial morning dose to... "keep my buzz going" so to speak. But by "buzz" I mean adrenaline release so I get up off my behind and accomplish my goals. At the end of next week, I'm possibly looking at taking 160mg of Vyvanse throught the day. :cool:

Do you cycle alcar? I love it, coffee+alcar+choline, but it seems to loose effectiveness quickly.

Not as of yet, but I am beginning to feel a decline in its effects. I've used it consistently for about two weeks now, as pre-spring break exam period is incredibly taxing, but since spring break is coming up next week, I'll see if a week is enough down-time.


--------------


Last, I realize I'm about two months late for this specific thread, but I thought I'd put in my two cents about the SCT classification/exclusion/"breaking up our happy family" debate going on.

Does the classification of my disorder matter to the little screwed up chemicals in my brain that make me think slow? No. Would changing my diagnosis effect my treatment right now? No. The fact of the matter is a diagnosis of ADD/SCT/ABCDEFG will not change the fact that "SCTish" people respond most favorably to amphetamines or bupropion. The same treatments also, conveniently, apply to broadly defined ADHD.

Why change the classification, then?

Simple. Research.

Just because adderall may work for a certain individual with SCT doesn't mean a BETTER cure won't be discovered tomorrow. Perhaps this new drug is a blanket panacea for everyone in the ADHD spectrum, SCT included. However, we all know the likelyhood of that happening... More likely, a more effective treatment for inattentive type would NOT benefit hyperactive/combined type. But since inattentives are only a small part of the ADHD spectrum, why make a drug that benefits the minority only?

Profits are the bottom line. Why would GlaxcoSmithKline spend the millions of dollars in research for 1/8th {arbitrary #} of the ADHD population while Shire just combines amphetamine with an amino acid and develops Vyvanse, a drug that will help the other 7/8ths? The most effort they're going to put into this would be to develop their own generic when Adderall's patent runs out. Or perhaps try to find a broad spectrum ADHD drug to compete with Vyvanse/Adderall.

They're not gonna waste their time with a disease that doesn't "technically" exist.

For those of you who are prescribed Vyvanse, and I'm talking to anyone of any ADHD subtype, look at the drug info. Near the bottom of the page they list some studies done that back up their claims to how well it works. I don't have it with me, but from what I remember, every study specifically mentioned the test subjects were ADHD-hyperactive or ADHD-combined. Inattentives were excluded for undivulged reasons, but I've got a hunch it's because members of this subtype would skew the results and make the product look less effective.

Inattentives are being excluded from many research studies.... because less is known about them...?

Irony?

The drug companies already recognize that the pieces don't fit. I don't think the world would end if you made a whole new category for people who are already being excluded anyway.

If you separate SCT (or, preferably, the broader classification of ADHD-inattentive) from ADHD completely, now there is incentive for research. Now you have the "Omg, that fits me perfectly" people getting their own label. Hell, look through the thread, we had about 15 already.

And now all of a sudden, there's a brave new world out there for research. And a chance to make money from all the newly-diagnosed "me too" people who jump on the bandwagon. You're no longer doing research for 1/8th of a disease population. You're doing research for 8/8ths of a new disease.

And yes, as has been pointed out, there is no shortage of research on google about SCT. However, this research is dedicated to differentiation only. Not to treatment.

"ADHD inattentive subtype shows different neuroactivity than combined or hyperactive subtype" or something of the sort.

Yeah.... no sh*t..... how do you fix it?

This very thread deteriorated from a support thread on SCT to a debate over its existance.

With all due respect to free speech and open board discussion, calling someone's symptoms imaginary isn't very "supportive"...

Google SCT again. Now google ADHD. Merely the act of giving something an official title has drastic effects.





Okay.... so that was more than two cents. Shoot me. Anyone else find it ironic that an ADHD forum is filled with such long posts? :p

The 20mg only lasts about 2-3 hours for me, but that's about all I need to get things done. Taking more means more side effects – precisely what I want to avoid. I've taken 20mg twice in a day before when I'm swamped with work, and I feel like a zombie after awhile. The "overmedicated" feeling is absolutely horrible for me.

Wow.... that's it? *shrugs* well, whatever works. I hate the short-acting stuff. Too many hills and valleys. I can see why it's the most addictive type (besides the fact that it's easier to smoke/snort than extended-release versions) because it really sucks when you "come down" so to speak. "Aww... is it over already? Maybe I'll have just one more...." And so begins the cycle of lameness....

But that's me.... you're not me.... so yeah. :cool:
I like the short-acting better .. it allows imo for more control. I find the effect much more clear-cut .. f.i. when a dex spansule is worked out, it is so gradual that I almost always forget to take a next dose. With the IM, that does not happen so fast. I'm not really afraid to get addicted - let alone that I'd snort the stuff :eek:, but I do watch myself for those telltale 'ahh just ONE more' signs.

I was thinking a bit more about the intensity of emotions on meds .. I said that I did not experience a decrease in emotions. Come to think of it - it is indeed rather an increase.
Okay.... so that was more than two cents. Shoot me. Anyone else find it ironic that an ADHD forum is filled with such long posts? :p
it is ironic considering that the first D stands for Deficit - but like Ned Hallowell says, that's not correct. He proposes the term Attention Variability Syndrome :)

btw - you make good points about SCT as a category. Thanks!

Yes - I second that, Luthien. You do make EXCELLENT POINTS, Captain Obvious! (Great name!)

Sue

I was thinking a bit more about the intensity of emotions on meds .. I said that I did not experience a decrease in emotions. Come to think of it - it is indeed rather an increase.


Yeah. Without being too sciency, the meds increase dopamine and norepinephrine, giving you both energy and desire to concentrate. The percieved "emotionless" state is because your thoughts aren't ON your emotions. But if they ARE on these emotions, whether positive or negative, it "greases the rails" of whatever train of thought is on the track.

This is why you never give ADHD meds to someone who is bi-polar or OCD... I think you can guess the results for yourself.

it is ironic considering that the first D stands for Deficit - but like Ned Hallowell says, that's not correct. He proposes the term Attention Variability Syndrome :)

I don't even think it's that. It's actually the opposite, at least with me. It's hyperfocus on irrelevant crap. I talked about this with my psychiatrist. A "normal" brain (if there is such a thing) is able to multitask by keeping 90% focused on the current task at hand, while every once in a while the mind trails off to other tasks like, "oh, yeah, I gotta go get milk on the way home" or "I have a meeting at this time." They're still able to revert attention back to the current task in a snap.

ADHD people are unable to do that. It's either 100% or nothing.

Screw that attention "deficit" or "variability" junk. It just appears that way to an observer when, in fact, it's the opposite.

ADHD people either have a dopamine deficit or are hypersensitive to it (or probably both). When something is interesting, it increases dopamine and, for whatever reason, our brains CRAVE dopamine moreso than the average human.

And, on the flip side, boring tasks produce less dopamine -- or at least we have a lower baseline level.

So, it is LITERALLY more painful for an ADHD person to do a mundane task than the average person. So, in turn, the brain is actually LOOKING for distractions.



Tell THAT to someone who believes ADHD isn't a real disease. ;)



And yes, I have a dopamine boost while writing this.... supercharged by Vyvanse..... as well as the above post. That's why they're so long... :p Attention deficit my *ss.

Yes - I second that, Luthien. You do make EXCELLENT POINTS, Captain Obvious! (Great name!)

Sue

Avast there, matey.

-------------

One problem I have with the "SCT" label, though. You would have to keep it under the umbrella of ADHD inattentive, even if you separate ADHD-I from the other types. There are a billion causes for people thinking slow, and if you make "sluggish cognitive tempo" it's own disease, you have to include everyone. Then the disease is way too broad, easy to fake just to get meds/accomodations, and hard to research.

I'm quite sure SCT and ADHD-I are somehow linked and the specific cause of it is unique to only this disease. You sever that link and you effectively eliminate all hope of proper treatment.

I do, however, believe ADHD-I is distinct and separate from ADHD-H and ADHD-C and must be labeled accordingly.

They don't treat ADHD-inattentive. Nor do they treat ADHD-hyperactive or ADHD-combined.

They treat ADHD.

The sub-groups are ignored and you just hope you respond to the treatment you're given.

Stims ain't the best answer for us. They overstress our adrenal glands and our cardiovascular system. Off meds, my pulse is 65-70. On, it's about 90.

I DO have a theory about this, though.

All you ADHD-inattentives, how often are you truly "stressed out"?

I am almost NEVER stressed out. My teacher could tell me to write a novel by next week worth 95% of my grade and I would not stress out about it at all. I probably wouldn't even think about it till the night before it's due. Not because I didn't care, and I would fully intend to do it. But neither the quickly approaching due date nor the importance of the assignment would be enough motivation to start.

Also, how many of you have trouble with your weight, or have had trouble when not consistently taking meds?

I personally don't have that problem with or without meds, but I'm curious as to others. If my theory is correct, there shouldn't be many...



I think it has something to do with cortisol. It's a horomone released in times of stress. It kind of goes hand-in-hand with adrenaline. Adrenaline is for fear/fight-or-flight response. Cortisol is released when the stress is more long term.

It's been shown that many people with certain types of depression, contrary to what you might think, have low levels of cortisol. These same people are the depressive types who lie in bed and don't engage in many activities.

I think cortisol, rather than being the "stress" horomone, is actually the "activity" horomone and I have a hunch that we, like the low-activity depressives, have a deficiency of it.

What do ya'll think? Anyone seen any studies about this?

This is why you never give ADHD meds to someone who is bi-polar or OCD... I think you can guess the results for yourself.
Hallowell mentions that too, indeed.

Screw that attention "deficit" or "variability" junk. It just appears that way to an observer when, in fact, it's the opposite.
It may be a matter of perspective.
- deficit: is obvious for the teacher who observes that I am daydreaming all the time
- variability: hyperfocus on one subject - no focus on most others
- and for myself: it is maybe best described as attention adriftness (adriftity? http://www.emoticons.free.fr/smileys/zz-Uncategorized/lookaround.gif)

So, it is LITERALLY more painful for an ADHD person to do a mundane task than the average person. So, in turn, the brain is actually LOOKING for distractions.
This is so true. Meetings really, really hurt. People would always snigger about that .. no-one likes meetings (at least, no-one that I am on speaking terms with) and they always thought that I was exaggerating.

And yes, I have a dopamine boost while writing this.... supercharged by Vyvanse..... as well as the above post. That's why they're so long... :p Attention deficit my *ss.
That's called 'cooking the data' hahahaha .. taking meds and then: whaddyamean Attention Deficit? *POOF* Here's our Hyperfocusing Hero! :cool:

[...] The sub-groups are ignored and you just hope you respond to the treatment you're given.
Good point. I am for just doing the most simple thing: officially reinstate the term ADD for the inattentive / SCT variety and maintain ADHD for the others .. and maybe tweak the cutoff point a bit where you are ADD on one side and ADHD on the other since it is argued that the existing point is based on observations with young boys only (or mostly).

Stims ain't the best answer for us. They overstress our adrenal glands and our cardiovascular system. Off meds, my pulse is 65-70. On, it's about 90.
For me, they are good. And my pulse does not change significantly.

hi there, thanks for all your info - but this was new to me and im kind of a little depressed about it - i new i had problems but even dyslexia nad everything didnt hit the nail on the head but htis DID quite squarely - slugglish cognitive tempo - BUt it doesnt show in any of my parents- they are both fine and they get thing quite quickly - i dont - im sooooo slow.even once ive read something a milliion times i dont get it! - i never get the joke unless its explained to me - or only occasionaly.
I tried an exercise which improves your working memory but even that didnt help - i still have to read things a milion times. no hope it seems :-(

dear vince

i would like to ask you why you think you struggle so much with maths - do you think its working memory?? But SCT people are slow mentally like when reading they may have to read many times before the meaning becomes apparent - surely with your IQ you dont have that problem.
And as a possible fellow SCT sufferer, i say this with the greatest of respect aren't SCT sufferer not smart as isn't this the essence of the disabilty.
Thanks for yout time. :)

hi ya,
What did the doc saY?? :)
Thanks

Attention Adriftness Disorder? I like it!


...it is maybe best described as attention adriftness...

hi jeremynd,
I think i prety much havethis problem but i think mine is also confounded my some physical probs.
thanks for your results on the aderall but do you not think that perhaps you have a physical disorder instead/also - i mean the tiredness- you may want to check hypothyroid or perhaps improving your diet??
Thanks

hi there luthein,
did you get a response for your question about how you can be smart and a CST person at hte same time?? i dont know -if you have any new on that please enlighten me.

Also, you say that you a physically sluggush - CST people are thought to 'internalise' and suffer from depression/anxiety - is this the case with you? - maybe thats causing your problems, if not, have you looked into a physical cause fro this sluggishness - perhaps hypothyroidism - chronic fatigue, - i mean how does a learning disability like that cause physical symptoms also... i read it interferes with dopamine and depression therefore.

As much as i really want to learn about this problem i struggle cause my memory and reading is soo terrible and i flit from being strongly ambitious about discorvering mroe and feeling completely hopeless.

hope this helps,
Thanks fro any thoughts.:)

ok i am 20 year old and was just reasontly dignoised with (adhd-I/ADHD-PI/ADD) they are the same. i was never hyperactive when i was a kid nor am i now. i have now learned that SCT describe me perfectly. my daydreaming is very bad and i have always had it. i have a lack of motivation to do things, i sleep like there no tomarrow because im always tired, my thought processing is jack up, its hard for me to focus on thing im not really interested in no matter how hard i try, i have become shy from the lack of my conversational skills, i have difficulty with verbal retrieval from long term memory, im always losing things, and i have a chill lay back, or slugges dimeanor.

however, im really smart. i have been in gift classes and honor classes all through grade school. i still have trouble academicly with things that are harder for me like spelling, reading, and reasoning. im very good with numbers and visual spatial capabilities or (pictoral recall) which is what got me in a lot of the gifted classes.

i have many friends but sometime its like they ignore me or arent really listining to me. when people talk to me im off in LA LA LAND somewhere which makes it hard to respond to them.

since the thinks my friends like to do for fun dont intrest me i have to do other stuff. i snowboard, ride motorcycle, skate board, etc. which they would never do.

its just when i havnt done anything in forever from being stuck in the house all day, sleeping and being extremly bored the high risk activities give me a rush.

im taking 20mg adderall xr which ive only been on for 4 day. it wakes me up in the mourning, keeps me from sleeping all day and motivates me to talk more. but thats it. it does nothing for my memory, focusing, or help me get out of that foggy place.

SCT being consider as a sperate group dosent make since to me since it fit perfectly with the inattentive group.

ADD should be seperated from ADHD because ADD is more mental than physical and ADHD is more physical than mental. and yes i know they are both mental problems. its like upper and downers. they are both pills that give u a high but with different effects.

Wow, I just read about the Sluggish Cognitive Tempo (SCD) and I must say the condition fits me almost perfectly. I have been searching for something that would describe the way I feel for about 7 years know, which is approximatelly how long I have had the condition. I was diagnosed with depression, dysthymia, anxiety, social anxiety, add, and what not, since they all share most of the symptoms, but most of these diagnoses somehow felt not right. I tried multiple antidepressants without positive response (except maybe for the first time I was prescribed fluoxetine - then it worked wonders). The only thing that worked after that is Adderall.

And I have classic SCD symptoms - I am constantly daydreaming, and its probably the first symptom I noticed in my condition, but I simply couldn't find it in symptoms lists for depression, add, which I was always surprised about. I have trouble with the short term memory, which is evident by the fact that when I am doing tests I need to read and re-read problem description, until I formulate in my head. Generally, I am good at school, but because of this I tend to do bad in fast paced tests, such as SAT or GRE. I have always been rather shy, withdrawn person. I have hypersomnia - can sleep for 12 hours if uninterrupted, but still wake unrefreshed. I am tired and easily fatigued.

What puzzles me, is that I wasn't like that all the time. I mean, I was rather shy and sluggish for as long as I remember, but I could focus really well, had no motivation problems, didn't get fatiqued easily, was alert and active. It all changed one day, as if out of nothing, when I was at the 10th grade. I slipped into depression, which gradually transformed into the add like symtoms I have today. But from what I read, SCD symtoms usually have a later onset than ADHD symtoms. And some people with ADD develop symtoms only in university, when they have to create their own motivational structure, which might have been previously maintained by parents/teachers.

The SCT description fits me pretty well too.

Dcmoney05 - your symptoms actually sound exactly like mine. I also noticed, that I have always had problems maintaining conversations, loosing words, etc, which probably contributed to shyness, or social anxiety. I am less shy when on Adderall, likely because its easier to maintain interest in conversation, and the talk is somehow just natural then, not requiring much effort. I am surprised Adderall doesn't work for you. Maybe you would respond to IR Adderall better, which is the one I am taking. Also, one question - when did your symptoms occur, did you have them all the time?

I was kind upset at the idea of sluggish being used to describe my cognitive speed. Now that I've had a few days to think about it, I feel that is pretty accurate. I was wondering how I could have a high I, like quite a few of you have here, and term my brain processing as sluggish. To me the things that are in my head (the many things I ponder, toss about, pull and break apart) are part of the reason my processing of input (from the world outside of my head) is slow. Because I get bored so easily, I am always going back to the more interesting distractions I keep handy in my head. So, when someone begins a long explanation to something that they may be interested in and I am not, well, I've only processed a bit of what they've said. It's okay. I know that's just the way I am. The output part kind of bugs me more. I HATE that I can't express myself verbally as quickly and as wittily as I'd like. I am fine writing. And the witty retorts...oh they pop into my head way too late (usually during the car ride back home after I've had time to ponder the words fully). Sheesh. That really irritates me.

Oh, right...Hello! I'm new here. I love this board. I hope to learn more. I'm glad the bickering earlier in the thread seems to have simmered down.

Cheers!

^^^^ I feel exactly the same about the verbal expression vs. written expression dichotomy. I always feel that I said the wrong thing or should have said something at all hours after a social interaction. I feel much more comfortable expressing myself in writing because I have time to think it through, and the end result is always much better.

Looking at the research and diagnostic criteria for SCT (at least the tentative criteria), it fits me far better than the ADHD criteria, even the ones for the inattentive subtype.

This sounds exactly like me. It's a description for ADHD-I. Hmm... SCT works for me as well. This is me to a T. I actually succeeded academically but it took me forever to figure out how to do it..my way.

***

As stated on previous occasions, It is unfortunate that most of the ADHD research to date has been with those who are ADHD-C. As mentioned above only about 30% of those with ADHD-I symptoms improve to clinical recognized levels with medication. However some adults find a balance of their symptoms with low doses of stimulates and SSRI’S. Some children’s symptoms are relieved with a low of stimulate medication.
As medication is not always successful with ADHD-I children or adults, they are then left with the option of some sort of therapy or education, which will assist them in understanding how ADHD-I has impacted upon them, and how to overcome firstly their problems with sustaining their attention on the matter in hand, then they need to learn social skills and finally how to process information more effectively.
Now none of this is as easy as stated previously. It is not at all. An ADHD-I child at school will again most likely need some remedial teaching and on a one to one basis. The one to one basis is necessary, as the teacher needs to be close at hand to assist the child to keep their mind on their learning task. The teacher will also need to repeat the lessons, as this will help the child to learn.
ADHD-I children or adults are no less intelligent than the average person. They can in fact be very intelligent. It is known that there as some with high levels of intelligence can overcome the symptoms of ADHD-I and succeed very well academically. However, this comes at a cost, for they are exhausted at the end of the day by the effort of sustaining their attention. Superior intelligence does not automatically give social skills, so those people too could benefit from attending social skills courses.
And of course those with ADHD-I do indeed have their positives. Anything that they learn well they can become experts at and can give advice or input, which are very worthwhile. They are very loyal, caring towards others, have concern for others, are non-judgmental, will go into things in great depth and become very knowledgeable, they can go well in the performing arts or drama.

As with ADHD-C, it is important that those with children and adults with ADHD-I find out all they can about ADHD-I and if necessary seek treatment. In most cases treatment of some kind is needed. Why? Because if the condition became obvious then all is not well and obviously something needs to be done. Possibly medication and or therapy. Therapy maybe necessary if not for the ADHD-I but for any co-morbid condition, which may be there.

SOURCE: http://www.adhd.org.au/adhdi.html

fyi,

Please keep in mind that SCT, while accepted as a feature of ADHD-PI type, doesn't necessarily apply to all Inattentive types.

It also hasn't been proven to be a "Qualitatively different disorder." Yet.


Another term for expressing ADHD is :

"An Intention Deficit Disorder."


That reflects ADHD disrupting the only Output Function of the brain (Sustained or Persistent Attention: the ability to persist long enough to finish a task).

It also deals with the reality that the Executuve Functions, which are the heart & soul of ADHD impairments, do not acquire knowledge, they appy it.

Thats why ADHD is a "Disorder of DOING what you know and NOT knowing what to do."

More practically, this is also why ADHD kids cannot complete their daily classwork in a timely manner.

Nor can they be "taught responsibility" of being able to do that.

They can NEVR do that; without accommodations (i.e., fewer problems, decreaesd workload, & not sending home unfinished schoolwork).

But the biggest "DUH " accommodation ( not surprisingly, supported by research) is that you should NEVER keep ADHD kids in at recess to finish incomplete work.

They need MORE activity than their non-ADHD classmates.

It also creates the situation where they "explode" when they get home and have to do chores and/or homework + unfinished classwork.

They can only hold it in, while being treated like they don't have it (ADHD), for so long.

An SCT kid will be equally unable ( as their ADHD-H-I & C-type counterparts) to finish their work as well.

Since they present as "hypo" instead of "hyper" active, they'll need lots of help with getting started (Initiation), and staying on task.

I also believe they'll be more likey to get called "lazy," however, that's strictly a personal assumption.

They also need physical excercise, even if they look like they're in "slow motion."



tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

When I was in grade school I had top-notch grades too, I had better reading ability speed and comprehension than most of my classmates up to grade 4, and then it seems like in high school i just couldn't keep up anymore, started to lose interest in school and it's been like that ever since

I registered just to post on this thread because I too have a lot of the symptoms of SCT. I read through this thread and the wikipedia article....

im slow at processing information sometimes and want to know how to fix this without medication. Besides doing brain games like soduku, how I can I improve my brain? Maybe some vitamins I can get?

When I was in grade school I had top-notch grades too, I had better reading ability speed and comprehension than most of my classmates up to grade 4, and then it seems like in high school i just couldn't keep up anymore, started to lose interest in school and it's been like that ever since
I was like a genius up until 5th grade. dont know what happened :)

Post on this thread if you think you have SCT

I already did - some time ago

I had the same thing - tested 100th percentile on iq tests in primary school - I wanted to know *everything*, mostly how things work in nature, technology etc. As long as I could figure it out in my own way it was ok but when I had to start paying attention in class (around grade 7) - belain istagir! - downhill it went. I did finish highschool, but barely.

im slow at processing information sometimes and want to know how to fix this without medication. Besides doing brain games like soduku, how I can I improve my brain? Maybe some vitamins I can get?
I am very skeptical about the power of - both soduku (am I the only person in the world that has never done one?) and vitamins to reduce ADD / SCT symptoms. Probably the games are fine as they do no harm, but large doses of vitamins may even be harmful (search on quackwatch for 'orthomolecular').

Medication (in my case, dexedrine) helps to a degree .. I notice a significant improvement of "things I get done", feel more 'present', my mind fog disappears and I feel much calmer inside, and active on the outside. I even get a lot more exercise - I also had quite an aversion towards physical exercise ... that disappeared completely. I now love to walk and bike .. and that is good for concentration and motivation as well. I can bear being in meetings a lot better.

What did not change .. I am still easily distracted and very daydreamy, it's still hard to process auditory information, still tend to go to bed far too late (and hence sleep too little).

But on the whole - I'll settle for it!

Thanks for the informative response Luthien, lots of insight there.

I will look into dexedrine and ask my doctor. It really is too bad that we haven't found a way to improve processing auditory information though. Its just so important.... if somebody is trying to explain something with like 4 steps, it's abnormally hard for me to understand. I do not want this to continue into college. If I am able to process auditory information better, it will make college life so much easier, and im starting this fall.

Some days I barely get things done and might be mad about that, so Dexedrine could help there with calming me down and getting more things done.

About soduku... its just a puzzle game, i think any game like that gets your brain stimulating. Not sure if I believe that 100% either. I have never played soduku.

One other thing: I've never had any treatment for ADD/SCT and have never taken more than one vitamin. Once in a while I take a B-12 dot (supposed to give iron and energy or something)

One other thing: I've never had any treatment for ADD/SCT and have never taken more than one vitamin. Once in a while I take a B-12 dot (supposed to give iron and energy or something)

FYI: Vitamin B12 deficiency is not common, and if one's daily intake is not sufficient (in strict vegans), it can take quite a long time to notice any adverse effects (generally up to 5 years in adults).

http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/9339/20862.html

do I get it? sooo....

ADHD and ADD are considered the same disorder that manifests in different ways but in the year 2012 ADD and SCT will be considered the same thing? or ADD will be known as SCT from then on??? I don't like 'slugglish' in my diagnosis :/

did I understand correctly??

do I get it? sooo....

ADHD and ADD are considered the same disorder that manifests in different ways but in the year 2012 ADD and SCT will be considered the same thing? or ADD will be known as SCT from then on??? I don't like 'slugglish' in my diagnosis :/

did I understand correctly??
No, you get it quite wrong.
And! What has the year 2012 got to do with it? What did I miss this time?
A new age conspiracy of sorts?

I thought that, in the next edition of the DSM, it might happen that the people with an SCT profile - that is, if you have no hyperactive / impulsive traits at all - are going to get another label than ADHD-PI - because the 'H' is just nonsensical for us. Might. Not certain. Not.

Now, the tipping point between ADHD-C and ADHD-PI is rather randomly established at *6*. If you have 6 or more, you are ADHD-C (ADHD) - if not, you are ADHD-PI - or ADD or primarily inattentive.

But within that ADHD-PI (ADD - inattentive) group, there is too much of a variety. That is where the SCT label comes into play .. the ones that are really quiet, introverted, shy are supposedly quite different from the ones that are more spunky - in history, problems we encounter, etcetera.

So if you're a Hyper - no worries, you are never going to get a SCT label. That is only for the ones that have no H at all. I don't mind .. have been called 'sluggish' since pre-school .. I can take it. No worries.

But just to make sure .. the sluggish is only the I/O .. internally our mind's just as zippy as yours!

Plus, we're illegally cute, of course :D

So happy to read about SCT. Recently I had read about it online and then I saw it here in the forum. I also hate the label > sluggish < cognitive tempo. But I really can relate. I am often in my own little world and I really have a terribly hard time processing auditory information >> but can any medication even help that? People talk to me sometimes and it takes me a sentence or two before I start understanding what they are saying. It is literally just noise (the way I would think a newborn perceives language) and then awhile later the meaning comes. Sometimes I'm okay and other times I'm just really slow. It's disturbing.

Also > I was into doing Sudoku for awhile and I was still my little spacey, slow-moving, "in my own world" self.

I just started meds again...hopefully I'll become a little more "with it" again soon.

So happy to see others out there who feel a strong identification with what is being called SCT.

... I am often in my own little world and I really have a terribly hard time processing auditory information >> but can any medication even help that?

I think only partly. Speaking for myself: medication takes the fog away so that everything becomes far more clear. I experienced it as very 'peaceful'. So that might help in auditory processing .. less internal distraction. And I have more patience .. can listen to someone for longer without this sensation that your mind wants to go off elsewhere after a couple of seconds.

But the working memory still feels the same. When someone starts explaining something to me I still feel like a juggler who is already keeping 5 balls up in the air and is being handed more and more.

But what I do now, is to explain that I need it in a more visual way .. or to see an example. Before, I did not have the presence of mind to do that.


People talk to me sometimes and it takes me a sentence or two before I start understanding what they are saying. It is literally just noise (the way I would think a newborn perceives language) and then awhile later the meaning comes. Sometimes I'm okay and other times I'm just really slow. It's disturbing.

oh yes, that is so recognisable!

Also > I was into doing Sudoku for awhile and I was still my little spacey, slow-moving, "in my own world" self.

For me it depends on what I do. When doing something that I really like which does not depend on slow I/O like creativity (like that 'define a word game' in here) or making a computer program I can enter a sort of 'magic mode' in which I am amazingly fast, creative and productive.

That contrast has always puzzled me.

btw I never did sodoku .. but I would not be surprised if I was slow in that too.

:)
luthien

So happy to read about SCT. Recently I had read about it online and then I saw it here in the forum. I also hate the label > sluggish < cognitive tempo. But I really can relate. I am often in my own little world and I really have a terribly hard time processing auditory information >> but can any medication even help that? People talk to me sometimes and it takes me a sentence or two before I start understanding what they are saying. It is literally just noise (the way I would think a newborn perceives language) and then awhile later the meaning comes. Sometimes I'm okay and other times I'm just really slow. It's disturbing.

Also > I was into doing Sudoku for awhile and I was still my little spacey, slow-moving, "in my own world" self.

I just started meds again...hopefully I'll become a little more "with it" again soon.

So happy to see others out there who feel a strong identification with what is being called SCT.Good response.... a lot of people like us are coming out of the woodwork to look at this thread. I really hope a medication or something with limited side effects can help us with processing auditory information. It will help so much for me with college lectures and just in general if someone is explaining like a 3-step process.. theres no way im going to remember it if all 3 steps are complicated.

My mother does soduku too and she says a lot of times she feels like shes in her own world to herself as well. Like 95% of the time when Im telling her a story or something she doesnt listen LOL.


For me it depends on what I do. When doing something that I really like which does not depend on slow I/O like creativity (like that 'define a word game' in here) or making a computer program I can enter a sort of 'magic mode' in which I am amazingly fast, creative and productive.

That contrast has always puzzled me.

The magic mode thing is the same with me: When I am doing something I enjoy profusely, I can really get in the zone.

That contrast has always puzzled me.

It is interesting how my brain can slow down and take a nap in the midst of doing something and then at other times I'm very with it. And I think this is what confuses other people who don't have ADD. I showed my husband some of the attributes for the SCT and he said that he only saw some of them in me >>like losing things, forgetting things >> but as for having slow response times (due to processing problems) he said he didn't notice that. This is very frustrating to me...it is almost as if it is a "phantom" symptom. auditory problems? >> what?

Anyhow, is anybody else out there who identifies with this SCT stuff very aloof?
I'm very confused here too -- sometimes I'm aloof because I'm afraid I'll be bored to death and then I think maybe it has to do with the fact I can't keep following a conversation if I'm not sincerely interested. Then I think maybe I'm just shy because of some of the reactions I get to my behavior and comments. If you can't keep up with small talk your bound to say some off the cuff remarks that make no sense to anyone but you.

Anyhow, I'm rattling on...I hope this thread keeps up I'm really interested in where all this SCT stuff will be going in the future.

In the past couple of years, I've evaluated 2 or 3 kids that fit the subgroup within the ADHD-PI type.

(Please recognize that I'm fast forwarding to the results section and skiping all the evidence based assessment that got me to this point).

Assuming the diagnostic criteria for ADHD has been met first,which is actually a mandate on being able to move forward, the distinguishing characteristc(s) that stood out the most to me (anecdotally), were the slowness of both gait/ motor movement & speech.

It was like they were in slow motion.

What really seems to compound the problem is that these kids are not likely to stand out, get into trouble or even raise their hands.

The article by Russell Barkley, PhD.,from San Franciso (2000), available on his website, does an excellent job of presenting the case for a "Qualitatively different disorder."

I appreciate the excellent posts on this subject, as there's not a lot out there.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)


PS.

There are NO vitamins / supplements that do anything for the specific treatment of ADHD.

My son was assessed for ADHD and learning disabilities by an educational psychologist. His average scores were in the 90s - no surprises there unless one looked at his senior high report cards. What really stood out was his processing score - in the 60s - quite a discrepancy. He is still very much a hyperactive ADHDer even as he approaches his thirtieth birthday and still speaks, moves and thinks quickly.

HOW I HAVE ALMOST BEAT SCT

A few thoughts on how I've come quite close to beating this thing and perhaps solving the riddle to make us SCTers at least function more normally. Keep in mind, I'm no doctor, but my doc, who's a specialist in ADHD (as opposed to a general psychiatrist), will agree with me on this.

Rule #1: Amphetamines (Adderall, Vyvanse, Dexedrine) are THE best treatment for SCT we have at the moment.

They don't cure it by any means, but they are the closest APPROXIMATION of being normal. They will NOT increase working memory capacity or suddenly make you a responsible person. They are NOT the panacea for this thing. But they ARE the biggest step towards turning your life around.

Focus is not the biggest concern with ADHD-I or SCT the way it is with hyperactivity, because without energy, focus is useless.

I've done the methylphenidate thing. LOVED it. GREAT focus. But after the first few weeks you develop a tolerance to the stim effects (not the focus effects). Now this drug ends up slowing you down... and you get to the point where you are sooo FOCUSED that you actually go slower.

Amphetamines are not as good for "zoning in" as ritalin/concerta are, but they DO help with multitasking. A LOT. Part of the reason we can't multitask is that our brains aren't aroused enough to do it. And when one thinks of "treating" ADHD, they think of focus only, because with hyperactives, the arousal is already there, it's just the matter of channelling it. But without sufficient arousal, which only amphetamines can consistently give (because it's literally legal METH) then lazer like focus is useless, cause it's a damn weak lazer.

The problem with this is, it's usually achieved at a higher dose than most doctors are willing to prescribe. Even though it's perfectly safe, they were taught in med school that too many amphetamines for a hyperactive or normal kid aren't good. This is completely true.

But we ain't either of those. We're doubly screwed because we can't focus, NOR do we have the energy. But, literally, more adrenaline = thinking faster. More amphetamines = more adrenaline.

This has SOLVED THE SLOWNESS PROBLEM nearly completely for me. I still read slow, and still have a working memory deficit, but the slowness in most other aspects of life is GONE! COMPLETELY! You'll really notice it in social situations, cause you're in tune and alert.



Problem with SCT is, once you have the energy and focus, often those aren't the only things that are the problem. You'll find that your motivation may still be lacking, cause, unfortunately, amphetamines help you concentrate better on EVERYTHING, not just your homework...

However, this helps in SOOOOOO many other areas of life. Once you've "lifted the veil" of the sluggishness and brain fog, you'll discover other problems, most likely, because this stuff is MUCH more complicated than just taking more stims.


BUT, it is the BIGGEST step towards being cured. And you WILL notice a difference.

If you don't, you're not taking enough. End of story.

There's no special chinese herb or hypnosis or "safer way" to solve this. It is a POTENT chemical problem. Only POTENT chemicals will cure POTENT chemical problems. Often times the only reason why it's "safe" is cause it doesn't work as well. Don't make excuses. Try the amphetamines out. Everybody's different, but all these posts here sound the same. ;) Perhaps the cure is the same as well.



One last note. Yes, amphetamines have the worst side effects. Especially if you use larger doses (not huuge doses, we're not meth addicts). I myself have somewhere between 50-70 mg of pure d-amph total in the day (no, not all at once... normally around 35 at once). You're gonna see some side effects you prolly don't like.

But what's it worth to ya? ;)



Yes, I'm giving medical advice without a medical license. Which is technically illegal. So sue me. But timid advice, even though it's safer on me, only makes those who I help more timid and confused. Most doctors are timid. For good reason. It isn't healthy to rush into hardcore treatments without considering all the options.

AND I AM NOT IN ANY WAY TELLING YOU TO TAKE MORE THAN YOU ARE PRESCRIBED. I WILL NEVER ENCOURAGE THE MISUSE OF MEDICINE, FOR BOTH MORAL AND LEGAL REASONS.

But I AM telling you to be aggressive in your attempts to solve this.

Because taking baby steps through life also means you don't get very far. And you ain't got nearly as much time as you think you do.

Hi McTavish you said

<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
In the past couple of years, I've evaluated 2 or 3 kids that fit the subgroup within the ADHD-PI type

That seems a low number . If I recollect rightly based upoon studies that 30 % to 60 % of the Inattentive subtype maybe SCT . Which would suggest that at least 10 % those who are indicated to have ADHD should be SCT based upoon studies . Is it possible that many who later might be considered to have had SCT aren't been put forward for you to be assessed because they "do okay " and its only as they get older that problems become more obvious .

lol... wow... looking at my post above a second time... the tone of it... looks like I'm telling people to take more than prescribed

But I am not.

DO NOT TAKE MORE THAN PRESCRIBED

I was merely encouraging a very active involvement in your treatment, and to not be scared to ask for a med or dosage change. The doctor won't give it to you if he believes it would be harmful. And to deliberately go against his orders is wrong, EVEN if it could help you think faster. Don't fool with stuff you know nothing about.

But he might also think it would be safe enough to help you.

You won't know until you ask.



I just didn't wanna say the whole "everybody is different and find the one that works for you" junk that people always say. When you don't know what to choose, you don't know what's best for you....

If you are familiar with your surroundings you can go wherever you like and still be home in time for supper. But if you're lost in the woods, it's a good idea to stay on the path, rather than making your own.

When you don't know what to choose, you don't know what's best for you....or your children. :cool:

If you are familiar with your surroundings you can go wherever you like and still be home in time for supper. But if you're lost in the woods, it's a good idea to stay on the path, rather than making your own.and watch out for wolves.

Anyhow, is anybody else out there who identifies with this SCT stuff very aloof?

Yes, I am, at least in groups. In 1-to-1 contacts, not if I feel at ease with the other. Then I can be really close and at ease.

I'm very confused here too -- sometimes I'm aloof because I'm afraid I'll be bored to death and then I think maybe it has to do with the fact I can't keep following a conversation if I'm not sincerely interested. Then I think maybe I'm just shy because of some of the reactions I get to my behavior and comments. If you can't keep up with small talk your bound to say some off the cuff remarks that make no sense to anyone but you.
yes .. sounds very familiar.


Assuming the diagnostic criteria for ADHD has been met first,which is actually a mandate on being able to move forward, the distinguishing characteristc(s) that stood out the most to me (anecdotally), were the slowness of both gait/ motor movement & speech.
It was like they were in slow motion.

yes .. at school they always called me names like stick-in-the-mud or dawdler


What really seems to compound the problem is that these kids are not likely to stand out, get into trouble or even raise their hands.

yes, true

The article by Russell Barkley, PhD.,from San Franciso (2000), available on his website, does an excellent job of presenting the case for a "Qualitatively different disorder."


It is quite a read but very thorough ...


HOW I HAVE ALMOST BEAT SCT

PARTYTIME!!! :D

Rule #1: Amphetamines (Adderall, Vyvanse, Dexedrine) are THE best treatment for SCT we have at the moment.

yes .. dexedrine is great for me, but ritalin, not so much.

I've done the methylphenidate thing. LOVED it. GREAT focus. But after the first few weeks you develop a tolerance to the stim effects (not the focus effects). Now this drug ends up slowing you down... and you get to the point where you are sooo FOCUSED that you actually go slower.

heh, that sounds familiar. I have, for a while, switched back and forth betwen ritalin and dex on advice of my psych .. like, every other day. Ritalin was quite good at first .. I think that was just the newness. It made me calm and clear inside and it worked for attention / motivation. But soon it became sort of 'unnatural'.

Amphetamines are not as good for "zoning in" as ritalin/concerta are, but they DO help with multitasking. A LOT.

I felt it like this ... like my thoughts are normally like an anthill (for those of you who've read Terry Pratchett, this is not an intentional pun :) ) .. and with dex it shrinks into a single (happy whistling) ant marching along.
Or the difference between a fog bank and a clear pool.

The problem with this is, it's usually achieved at a higher dose than most doctors are willing to prescribe.
My psych mentioned that the upper limit is more because of the cardiovascular strain it might induce if you go above it.

One last note. Yes, amphetamines have the worst side effects. Especially if you use larger doses (not huuge doses, we're not meth addicts). I myself have somewhere between 50-70 mg of pure d-amph total in the day (no, not all at once... normally around 35 at once).

my psych told me 50 mg/d of dex is a safe max. And I take that limit serious. It is still a lot more than most non-sct type ADD people that I know take, who usually are on about 30-45 mg of Ritalin / Concerta, and dextro-amphetamine is supposed to be twice as strong so my dosage is equivalent to about 100 mg/d methylphenidate.

It works well enough. I am still dreamy and a bit slow sometimes, but an amazing lot better. I am physically normally active now - finally. I'll never turn into a sport fanatic, but now I love to get moving .. like walking or biking.

I hardly have any side effects. I do notice, however, that how well it works is very much dependent on whether I got enough sleep. If I don't, dex doesn't work half as well.


But hey, it sure seems to ramp you up .. or is it just the colours and BOLD letters that make it sound almost hyperactive :eek: ;)

Captain Obvious, thanks for your "strong" post...i didn't have to read through the lines and it really helped in terms of what path to seek...when my doctor comes back from her 2 mo hiatus I want to discuss this Slow Cognitive Tempo thing with her.

And< Luthien, speaking of nicknames, I forgot that when we first went out, my husband use to call me Pokey because it took so long for me to get it together

Captain Obvious, thanks for your "strong" post...i didn't have to read through the lines and it really helped in terms of what path to seek...when my doctor comes back from her 2 mo hiatus I want to discuss this Slow Cognitive Tempo thing with her.

And< Luthien, speaking of nicknames, I forgot that when we first went out, my husband use to call me Pokey because it took so long for me to get it together
thats a long hiatus! Whatd you do in the meantime?
I am also thinking about taking dexedrine.

yeah, Barone...
Imagine being able to take two months off every year?!?
I actually hadn't talked to my doctor since last May (07)...I took a year off from all meds but finally had enough with the struggle ... went back to see my doctor and she is in Europe! She is an excellent pdoc but I couldn't wait for her to come back so I had to see someone else in the meantime. On Strattera (only 20 mg) and Wellbutrin (300 mg)....feel okay but not great.

Feeling okay is not acceptable

I am relatively new to the community of ADHD. I began receiving the symptoms in the past two-and-a-half years and go through spurts where the brain fog is almost unbearable. My symptoms partially mirror closer to Chronic Fatigue with ADHD being almost a side effect, nonetheless my doctor is not the most ambitious of the lot.

My main question that bothers me on this day, is when periods of brain fog are absolutely overwhelming, what do y'all do on those days? What do you take on the days when caffeine just isn't enough to keep you alert? Who do you talk to?

I can relate. This is a lot of days lately for me. To answer your question....I do nothing...I go back to sleep. Obviously that doesnt help....but I'd like to hear others responses

Can't really talk to anyone, first anyone is apt, and psuedo-prepared to ALWAYS say you're depressed, get over it.

But you can't.

Find a new doc, especially one that might co-specialize in Opiate detox and maintenance, and/ or psycho therapy, they are usually MUCH MUCH more open minded, forgiving, and receptive people ( I say forgiving, because we do of course tend to forget things, such as how to take, when to take meds, payments, therapy.... etc etc.)

Yes! It IS a bummer that it took me several YEARS to find a doctor willing to prescribe me an amphetamine med. And I am pretty sure that this doctor is the MOST willing one in my area. When I asked her about increasing from 1 20mgXR Adderall per day, she exclaimed: "Twenty mgs is a HUGE DOSE!" and then proceeded to tell me how she goes out on a limb to help people but she could get her license pulled . . . blah, blah, blah . . . So I don't feel like I CAN ask for what I need. (Sucks!)

After a couple of years as her patient, I have gotten her to increase my rx to TWO Adderall 20mgIR per day - it's either that or ONE 30mgXR per day??????????????? I feel like TWO 30mgXR would be more ADEQUATE and appropriate - but, I know not to rock the boat. Maybe by next year.

Don't even suggest going to a top notch psych or any of that b.s. - been there, done that. Besides NOT helping, I paid top dollar to be patronized, humiliated and insulted.

Sue

Good luck Sue

I think this fits me. I did ADHD testing a few years ago. The results were deemed inconclusive and confusing, but I didn't know what ADHD-PI was back then and I'm not certain that the doctoral fellow was looking for it either (yes, I went with the cheap route). Two things stand out: my processing speed score was 96 while my other three factors were 124-138, and two of the tests that normally correlate, one
difficult and one easy, didn't. I did well on the difficult one and badly on the easy one. That looks like a common pattern in this thread.

Technical reading is tough. I might start off strong on a new topic but I burn out quickly, get frustrated, and go do something else. Distractions? BIG problem.

Any intellectual task that requires sustained effort tends to be troublesome.

I'm a great writer and a lousy speaker.

I get lost easily. All my senses are stronger than normal but processing that signal input can be overwhelming. Accents can drive me nuts, especially over the phone.

I'm less physically sluggish than I used to be. Forcing myself to take walks and now bike rides has helped. Forcing myself to do intelluctual tasks is usually ineffective but good cardio workouts seem to help. In junior high I was last picked for sports, first picked for Trivial Pursuit.

I was doing great academically until high school. Things fell apart in 10th grade, which was also the first year I didn't have to take gym and didn't get much exercise at all (computer nerd). Things got worse in college. My job performance has been poor and the only thing that got me through grad school was an insane amount of grade inflation.

I do great on standardized tests and math up through algebra. This might be a beneficial effect of high-functioning Asperger's (never officially diagnosed, I thought I'd adapted by the time I found out about it). Still, by the time I took the GMAT my quantitative skills had slipped badly.

I have the broken digestive system that goes along with Asperger's. That also led to persistent hyperammonaemia, which is like a never-ending hangover of varying intensity. Cleaning up my diet, taking digestive enzymes, probiotics and calcium butyrate (Butyrex) fixed all that and has allowed me to maintain more muscle tone. I was scrawny until I stopped growing, so-so afterwards, halfway decent now.

Shy? Introverted? Yup. Less bad than I used to be, but I still have the hide-from-the-world instinct. Getting in shape has helped.

Cleaning up my diet and exercising more have helped. Petrochemicals are Bad and that's what artificial colors, flavors and many preservatives are. The Lancet (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673607613063/abstract) has more about that and they used unrealistically low doses in their study. Britain is way ahead of us here. Sodium benzoate is suspected of affecting arachidonic acid metabolism (http://allergyadvisor.com/Educational/Aug05.htm) and since AA is the inflamatory omega-6 EFA that would be Bad. I suspect that my former 1-2 liter/day soft drink habit I picked up in college did damage, especially when I switched to diet, since it's loaded with artificials and usually preserved with sodium benzoate. I suspect that the rise in artificials and soft drink consumption is aggravating underlying genetic issues to the point where many more people notice them, ditto the rise in inflammatory omega-6 and drop in anti-inflammatory EFAs in the overly processed food supply.

I mention inflammation because for nearly two weeks after LASIK my head was clear. I doubt the one Valium pill had any effect but I bet the prednisolone acetate eyedrops (prednisone breaks down into that, powerful anti-inflammatory) did. Anyone have any idea why?

Playing video games for too long can really mess up my head. My eyes dry out easily (blepharitis). Not being stingey with eye drops helps.

A high-protein, low-sugar diet seems to help a bit.

I seem to be immune to nitrous oxide.

I've read that sleep disorders can aggravate ADHD (http://allergyadvisor.com/Educational/Aug05.htm). Some days when I wake up way too early I can think clearly, until sleep deprivation catches up to me. Usually I really, really don't want to get out of bed.

There's a very obvious behavior pattern along one side of my family. It's just worse in my generation.

I think I've done as much as I can without meds and my mind is still broken. I need to find a doctor who isn't on a Say No To Drugs kick.

That's enough of a brain dump for now. Am I at least right about ADHD-PI, if not SCT?

Accents can drive me nuts, especially over the phone.



In junior high I was last picked for sports, first picked for Trivial Pursuit.



This might be a beneficial effect of high-functioning Asperger's



Shy? Introverted? Yup. Less bad than I used to be, but I still have the hide-from-the-world instinct.




Am I at least right about ADHD-PI, if not SCT?There is an overlap of symptoms for various disorders. If someone is diagnosed with more than one disorder, it is good practice to focus on the most serious disorder - the one that impairs us the most.

Asperger Syndrome also causes difficulties in focus and attention that are similar to those experienced by people with AD/HD. Some AD/HD medications also help people with Asperger Syndrome. Asperger Syndrome creates more impairment for an individual than AD/HD would and the availability of supportive funding will back this up.

*Just because someone is having problems with attention does not mean they have AD/HD.

Asperger's was never more than an annoyance, assuming that I have it at all (I'm going by the description of high-functioning Asperger's in The Geek Syndrome (http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html) where it ceases to be a problem by around 30), and up until high school I had excellent focus. Asperger's gets easier with age so the late presentation of focus difficulties doesn't fit?

My brother is having more serious trouble that I think is consistent with ADHD-PI and he definitely doesn't have Asperger's.

The only reason I mentioned Asperger's at all is as a potential explanation of why my mathematical ability is still pretty decent.

Just call me the hyperactive anal retentive that crashed the SCT party -

Some interesting presentations and subsequent wtf moments


Any intellectual task that requires sustained effort tends to be troublesome.

I'm a great writer and a lousy speaker.

Umm pardon me if I am mistaken - does not writing require more of a sustained attention than speaking even for the non-dyslexic.:confused: If we are talking sluggish motor movement and inability to engage in in activities that require energy is seems like both activities would be effected with writing being more of a drain.

shyness (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shy)and introversion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/introversion%20) are not one in the same thing. The behaviors may outwardly present simular however the reason for the expressed behaviors would be drastically different even according to dictionary dot com. Some one who is shy doesn't have to be an introvert.



Cleaning up my diet and exercising more have helped. Petrochemicals are Bad and that's what artificial colors, flavors and many preservatives are. The Lancet has more about that and they used unrealistically low doses in their study

The Lancet doesn't back up STC at all - read the opening title of your link to the Lancet (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673607613063/abstract)

here it is again

{quote}Food additives and hyperactive behaviour in 3-year-old and 8/9-year-old children in the community: a randomised, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial{End Quote}

Sorry but I read this study more than once during a debate with the feingold lady a couple of months back. . . they weren't looking at sluggish any thing they are looking at hyperactivity/implusivity even irritability which is another kind of ADD all together apparently - your second hyperlink deal with allergy type symptoms again not saying any thing about sluggish any thing


How many of those in this discussion have been evaluated for auditory processing problems, sensory issues or learning disorders all of which like to keep our ADD company just to make life umm interesting

Being distracted by your internal thoughts - not being able to filter them out to attend a necessary activity by simply willing your self to do so is indicative of ADD - your damn filtering value snapped shut and now your brain can't escape it's own mind - and ????? wouldn't this be a selective attention problem - a kin to the one I have except my stimuli value gets stuck in the open position and my brain gets bombarded by every thing constantly. . . . .

What I have found in my own research on Asperger's (I suspect I have it myself) is that food chemicals/artificials/preservatives do not cause it, but may worsen symptoms. If you eliminate these from your diet, the theory runs--if you cure the digestive problems going on--more "mental space" is freed up and that makes some tasks easier, including socializing.

But outside of the more extreme curebie camp, I've not found a great deal of support to suggest these problematic food chemicals cause ASD.

And personally, I don't buy it, anyway.

Ditto what Batmat55 said. In my case getting rid of petrochemicals made me more even tempered and I think my decision making is better, but as to sluggishness... not much. I think it's important to get that "noise" out of one's system. I wouldn't be surprised if it effectively "cures" some people (knocks symptoms back to a manageable level) but definitely not me.

I think better on paper (or word processor). Writing lets me take my time to gather my thoughts, not lose my place, go back and add words my mind skipped over, fix careless mistakes (I make a lot of those), I can take breaks and go back to it later, etc. I still have to want to do it but it beats my clumsy speaking. Tougher tasks, like writing a program instead of English, aren't going so well anymore. Boring "why did I get assigned this waste of my time?!" writing tasks don't go well at all, rarely finished if they get started.

Shy, definitely. Introverted... hmm, maybe not, at least not anymore.

Sensory/learning disorders... no evaluation, but wouldn't those have shown up well before high school, or not be relevant to the problem at hand because I was academically strong before then (and especially before college)?

I get distracted easily, period. External distractions, my mind wandering, or just flat out refusing to focus on what I'm supposed to be doing even though it's not all THAT difficult. I can stare at a page for hours, just trying to read the bleepin' thing, and not get anywhere. Once in a while I have a "good day" and can plow through chapters with ease. Less technical material tends to go much easier. New subjects tend to go easier, even well, until the novelty wears off.

Can you manage physical sluggishness with exercise but still be mentally sluggish? I can force myself to move but I can't force myself to think. Getting in shape has helped and cleaning up my diet helped me get in shape.

If ya'll want a good chemical that helps with the "fog" effect, try some ALCAR (acetyl-L-Carnitine). Stack it with a good choline source such as bitartrate or citrate, a B-complex, and some ALA (alpha lipoic acid). Last maybe some potassium.

This stack really seems to make everything more clear for me. Especially when you first start taking ALA, your vision is clearer, which only adds to the good "clear" feeling this stack gives you.

It's not a solution to the sluggishness/motivation difficulties. That's best solved with meds + therapy. Nor does it help with processing speed, per se. When I'm on it, my thoughts and task accomplishment are still slower than the average person, but everything "clicks" more, and you're just a little closer to "normal."

If you have no idea what any of that stuff is, just google "nootropics" and immerse yourself in a brave new world of brain chemicals. ;)
What dosage do you use or recommend for those supplements? I see that I can get all of those from the combination of Jigsaw Complete and Brain Support from jigsawhealth.com: 175mg of choline bitartrate, 100mg of ALA, 100mg of acetyl-L-Carnitine, and a pretty hefty B complex. I suspect that everything except the B complex is too low and doubling up on Brain Support would be awfully expensive? I've had good luck with their products though. I see that GLA might help make ALA more effective and I get that from an omega 3-6-9 blend (2 tablespoons/day, attempting to fix what I think is EFA deficiency). Someone mentioned L-Theanine being good too?

Nootropics, great, ANOTHER thing to research... :eek::D

I figured out what my psych did wrong with my ADHD testing: he was using children's guidelines, not adult's. The "ADHD in Adulthood" book recommended in another thread says that that's going to cause most adults to get the "inconclusive" verdict that I was given.

The good news is that my family doc (who recommended ADHD testing in the first place but not the cheap route I took) is willing to work with me on figuring this out. He's started me on 10mg of Adderall, which we'll bump up 10mg at a time every 10 days until we either hit the right dose or something goes wrong. I took my first pill this morning to no significant effect, as I expected from reading this thread. That's OK, I'm on the path.

The drugstore gave me generic dextroamphetamine. I assume that's OK? But... they're blue. Adding petrochemical coloring to meds, especially when you're trying to fix neurology... geeze. I'll use them anyhow. Little blue nerd pills. I should sic the Feingold ladies on the manufacturer.

Is anyone else aware of the research by Susanne Jäggi on working memory training? (See http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13786-simple-brain-exercise-can-boost-iq.html )


She uses a 'game' that challenges (and trains?) working memory by requiring you to recall information, constantly keeping the difficulty set to the limits of your abilities. I've been playing an implementation of it online (http://www.soakyourhead.com/dual-n-back.aspx). So far it really seems to have an effect. I haven't been doing it daily, so I haven't experienced anything life altering yet. But after a few days of routine use, I do feel a little more collected and clear.

I'm curious if anyone else has tried this more consistently and what their experience was. I'm specifically interested in the impact on SCT type symptoms.

Is anyone else aware of the research by Susanne Jäggi on working memory training? (See http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13786-simple-brain-exercise-can-boost-iq.html )


She uses a 'game' that challenges (and trains?) working memory by requiring you to recall information, constantly keeping the difficulty set to the limits of your abilities. I've been playing an implementation of it online (http://www.soakyourhead.com/dual-n-back.aspx). So far it really seems to have an effect. I haven't been doing it daily, so I haven't experienced anything life altering yet. But after a few days of routine use, I do feel a little more collected and clear.

I'm curious if anyone else has tried this more consistently and what their experience was. I'm specifically interested in the impact on SCT type symptoms.
Cool, any little thing will help me. thanks

Somebody wrote that they handled math well up until algebra I... that's pretty much the same thing happened to me, but I am not sure why it happened. To me, I had a good command of visualization up until around that time, that's what I attributed to my downfall in school in general.

Anyone else have this loss of visual imagination as well?

Umm pardon me if I am mistaken - does not writing require more of a sustained attention than speaking even for the non-dyslexic.:confused:
I suppose they both require sustained attention.

My idea about the main difficulty with processing verbal information (for me, both speaking and listening mainly when there is some explaining involved that requires selecting and categorising information is seated in the working memory) is that there is not enough 'buffer space' to manipulate the concepts in my head, which results in jamming.

Next to that, there is still the more general ADD problem of 'being distracted by my inner thoughts'.

Writing does not suffer (that much) from a lack of buffer space, since there is no time pressure .. plus, there is the paper of computer screen as 'external buffer' to temporarily park ideas and concepts.


If we are talking sluggish motor movement and inability to engage in in activities that require energy is seems like both activities would be effected with writing being more of a drain.

I experience that having to speak or listen costs way much more energy than writing. Trying to juggle those words by lack of buffer space is exhausting.
The motor movement involved with writing is quite minimal; besides, I never really felt that it is a physical thing. Well, I generally do move slower than others because my body follows my mind .. but it is not a physical handicap.

Of course, writing *certain things* can also be very difficult, in the general ADD sense again of not being interested and hence distracted.
There are a couple of bills in front of me right now that need to be payed. It's not that I do not have the money to pay them ... I can simply log into my bank website and *do it* and get it over with, but I have been postponing that for four days now. And not because it is physically too strenuous to do .. I am writing this, here, now. And this does not cost me at all. Because I like to write here .. it is interesting, and stimulating.
I mean, a couple of months ago I was writing all these nonsense word definitions in that topic that we have here. I loved it, and even if I say so myself, I think I got quite good at it for a non-native speaker.
If you really like something it's easy for an ADD person.

But I do think the "auditory processing thing" is of a different order, and poses an additional problem.

Anyone else have this loss of visual imagination as well?

I have never been very "visual". Visual imagination comes erratic and unpredictable.
I am, however, very "tactile". I can imagine "feeling" things, structures - even complex ones, and even texture, temperature and smells - or the general 'feeling' of a place .. for instance, a forest.

If I am asked "imagine a blue triangle" - I can't see it, no matter how hard I try.
But if I am asked "imagine holding a cool glass ball, covered in dew drops" - it is almost as real as anything.

I have been doing a lot of meditations lately. They are of the "guided meditation" type, and involve imagining myself in specific places and situations. At first, I was almost entirely "blind", but I did have some other form of awareness of my surroundings. There were, however, erratic "flashes" of a more visual nature, and the oddest thing of all is that I discovered at a given moment that I am able to "see" my own arms and hands very well in my imagination when i hold them before me.

So then I discovered that I could somehow include my body into this imaginal world, and I use that as a bridge between feeling and seeing. I notice a marked increase in how vivid and 'visual' my imagination is. I sometimes use my (imaginal) hands to "see" - and I can run, and, as I discovered, swim; and it all adds to a more complete image / experience.

Just to make sure .. no, there are no drugs involved (besides the usual dex) :p

Until now I had no other purpose for this meditation than as a purely spiritual exploration, but now I think about what you say, it may very well be that this might help in other areas as well.

Ive just read the wiki link in the first post and its very interesting to me indeed.

I got significant benefit from ritalin at low dose, initialy anywah, then after a gap i was put on dexedrine, wich also worked but not till i got to quite high dose, now ritalin doesnt seem to work at the low dose and higher doses have stoped working too.

the wiki article mentions low dose of ritalin relases norepinephrine.

this may indicate that I need dexedrine rather than higher dose of ritalin.

my first day of college coming up and i dont want to leave my auditory processing problem through college. it will kill me especially in math class

Well, to add to the growing database, here is my experience/story:

initial situation:
55 db hearing loss, mayb from birth, more likely due to overdose of antibiotics during "toddlerhood".

subsequent iq testing provided a result of 133, worst partial test result in memorizing.

it was believed that this iq in combination with hearing aid would allow for ordinary schooling despite the hearing problem.

curriculum vitae:
in short - not at all. even though most iq tests i took later scored in the same range and a little above (there might be a training bias) i did not do exceptionally well in math or natural sciences. i never did any homework (too, arduous - considered that "cool" at the time, later realized i was completely incapable of doing it) and was largely absent during lectures. the only kind of learning i did was in a last minute frenzy before exams.

my average day consisted of 12+ hours of computer gaming. either thrill seeking, playing shooters or semi absent, playing strategy games (almost meditative, certainly not goal oriented or good play).

this behavior carried on deep into university life (computer science) and did only break down after aquiring my bachelor degree. understanding of the subject matter of course is required for a master thesis and for the different kind of exams (oral) a computer science diploma in germany requires. even though the grades i got as a bachelor were good, i would have been quite unable to explain the contents of my subjects to anybody who would have asked. the way i "learned" was a kind of reference learning - i knew where things were written down, and since books were allowed during exams, i could return to the pages in question and solve the given problem by analogy. there were surprisingly many assignments to be solved that way and even though my understanding was severely limited, i scored within the upper 10% of quite a number of exams, high level abstraction tends to completely blow my mind though.

the latter is due to defective working memory i think. memory retrieval often tends to be poor, short term memory is abysmal but the inability to deal with several (more than one is a problem already) lines of formulae at once is a killer.

symptoms:
i can relate closely to the accent problem discussed here earlier, wether this is due to hearing loss or auditory processing i dont know. for other languages or accent heavy speech on tv i generally use subtitles.

looking somebody in the eye can be a real problem for me. the sensation that occurs then is best described as "cognitive overload". it has adverse effects on my own thought process and often interrupts my line of thought/speech. i tend to be oversensitive to social situations in general though.

concentration on a given task is very hard for me. i tend to do multiple things in parallel which, given the defective working memory, of course tends to not save me any time any time whatsoever.

i often have a feeling of "nothing stays" i.e. reading does not increase my knowledge base. i know that this is partly caused by inadequate learning behavior but there seems to be more to it. i can read volumes without digesting. the focus feel no larger than a single sentence.

most typical inattentive symptom: following written words with the eyes while having the mind on a completly different topic. forces me to reread paragraphs indefinitely. same holds true for audio books or conversations.

sometimes i feel very dizzy. "consciousness" then seems to concentrate in the forehead, without access to memory (neither motoric/procedural nor wisdom/deklarative) or combinatorial facilities in my brain. horrible state of mind. intense feeling of helplessness, almost dementia.

parents: my mother is described as a typical ADHD-C type during childhood, still has inattention problems. doesnt belive in psychologic/medical treatment and avoids the issue during discussion.
no higher education, low qualification job. my father was a social maverick, had the same "no eye contact" tic. studied endlessy (16 years), achieved doctoral degree in biology later on.

confronting the situation:
methylphenidate hasnt helped at all, rather seemed to introduce more dizzyness and agressive behavior.
atomoxetin is being tried now.

sports help against sluggishness. not doing sport for over a decade hasnt helped motric skill development. sticking to the same sport for 2 years has improved the situation though distractability is present in the midst of a sportive situation as well.

and on a personal note:
i feel great disgust for the "anti drugs" opinion as i think it is some peoples personal dogma (a beloved pet theory if you like) that seriously hampers the treatment of those in need. i accept skepticism since medical treatment involves other immediate dangers, but nontreatment should also be seen as a more salient danger in itself. it directly causes people to be less than they could possibly have been and furthers lifestyles that are neither benefical to society nor to the afflicted individual.

canislupus: try Adderall (mixed amphetamine salts) instead of Ritalin, as others recommended. You sound like you're ADHD-I like me. Exercise helps as you noticed (sports), anything that gets your heart rate up for 30-45 minutes, biking being my favorite choice. Remove artificials and most refined sugar from your diet. I'm able to get away with a lower dose of Adderall than most, just 20mg once per day instead of 30mg twice per day, so long as I get my cardio workouts. Hopefully I won't have to raise that later.

I think there's a lot to the theory that ADHD is (usually?) caused by an immune system disorder, as discussed in other threads. 60-70% of your immune system is in your gut, thus why dietary cleanup helps.

I think everyone should get their diet and exercise habits fixed before trying drugs, both because I suspect that there are a lot of borderline cases that don't need meds and because you won't need as high of a dose if lifestyle changes prove inadequate. Getting the "noise" caused by petrochemicals (artificial coloring, flavoring and preservatives) out of your system is critical. It also makes your request for meds more credible since at that point you've tried just about everything else.

I've found that fast-twitch video games are much less interesting these days. I suspect you'll find the same once you find a treatment regimin that works.

Hi everyone...I want to network with other people who have SCT so we can share our experiences, etc. I'm now doing better than ever, but I'm not done yet. I've had a lot of experience with a lot of different medications, and although I'm not quite there yet, I'm confident that it's possible to be all but cured.

I just started a Facebook group called Sluggish Cognitive Tempo. You might be able to find it by searching, or message me and I'll tell you how to add me. Let me know if there's anywhere else on the internet where a lot of us are gathering & sharing ideas. Thanks!

I think there's a lot to the theory that ADHD is (usually?) caused by an immune system disorder, as discussed in other threads. 60-70% of your immune system is in your gut, thus why dietary cleanup helps.

I am skeptic. Sure enough, you should eat well and drop the junk food if that's what you live on, and refined carbs are not good at all. I know they make me more hazy. But I dont think our condition is caused by an immune system disorder and largely dependent on eating habits. I was raised on really healthy food and lots of excercise like riding my bicycle to school - 30 km/day. It made no difference.

The funny thing is that since I am taking medication, I never ever feel the need for a carb fix anymore. Not that I had a problem with that .. but occasionally, I could turn into a mini-cookie-monster ... those oreo's you have in North America!!! But after the first three and the initial "wow" I always got really tired, slowed down and it just felt bad.

Meds made me clear up, and I started to force myself to exercise more by moving to a place where I could walk to work in 40 minutes. So I did. The first weeks it was tiring, but then it became relaxing and fun. And I felt myself grow strong and leaner .. it's wonderful. I can't walk to work right now .. I am back in Europe and work in Amsterdam so I have to bike / train / streetcar .. but I walk every day at least an hour. With wings on my feet.

I still have enough appetite, but the tiredness, sluggishness is definitely better and does not bother me anymore.

So yes, I do agree that exercise is very important. But I knew that all along .. and I have tried and tried to build that into my daily pattern for years and failed every time. Because I couldn't be bothered, because I forgot, because I felt no improvement, because I really, deeply, totally loathe "gyms" so I had to drag myself there (that works maybe three times, and then no more).

The difference is that, with meds, it is doable, and it works.

I didn't mean to imply that ADHD is largely caused by eating habits, just that poor diet aggravates ADHD and should be corrected as part of a complete treatment approach. Dealing with diet and exercise first makes calibrating meds easier. I suspect that there are a lot of marginal cases out there that would be "good enough" with just diet and exercise but probably very few who've taken the trouble to come here. I needed meds, but if I get lazy about exercise I notice the difference.

"Immune system dysfunction" covers an awful lot. Gut, allergies in general, Group A Strep antibodies that have been implicated in a small percentage of ADHD cases, inflammation, etc. All you can do is fix the pieces of the puzzle as you find them.

Have you looked into Cerebellar issues - Dore etc?

Dore (dyslexia treatment) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dore_(dyslexia_treatment))

It looks pretty weak, at best.

This is interesting:

Second, there is no evidence that motor training influences higher-level skills; for example, if training coordination, balance, and motor skill had the hypothesized effect, then children good at sports like skateboarding should have a low rate of dyslexia and ADHD, an effect that has not been observed.

and in more detail from the same site....

If I could read and retain all that I would'nt be on this site now would I.

Yeah I would be labeled SCT as well, but my perspective is we are only slow moving when we are "lost in thought". When my mind is rapidly moving around I can be very sluggish and slow because I can't seem to work towards any specific duty. This sounds an awfully alike to ADD? Being overly shy, withdrawn, and hypoactive can be derived from depression and anxiety, not to mention people can have introverted personalities to begin with. (intro's are reclusive and withdrawn) When I'm happy and had a fulfilling day I'm not at all shy or slow.

When is comes to being slow at processing information, that is because we are not hyperfocused. When a ADD'er is not hyperfocused, they are not really focused at all, right? What I've read somewhere is that neurotypical people operate at around 20%-30% (possibly a bit lower or higher given the circumstance) of their energy(both mental and physical) at a steady rate. ADD'ers however operate at a steady 10% (hence being slow), but once into something(hyperfocused) they exert an outstanding 80-100%) This all stems from the Farmer and hunter theory of ADD. Innattentives (high theta brainwaves) energy goes inwards, when hyperactives (high alpha brainwaves) exert their energy outwards. If none of this is true for you, and you just feel like your slow cogntively then, you might be SCT.

Keep in mind this is all theoretical and based from my own perception from what I've read (Mostly in the 'Da Vinci Method' by Garret LaPorto.

There is an update to Barkley 2000 at UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute Distinguished Lecturer Series February 2007. Details on SCT are sketchy, but there is definitely movement (OHHH SOOO SLOOWW!) in that direction.

As I e-mailed to Dr. Barkley, "may I recommend: 'Restricted Cognitive Tempo'? Being likened to an animal, reptile, or invertebrate of sloth all my life is getting old. Besides, look at it from the inside, I can see that my brain is not always slow, but something besides me decides where my thoughts will go.

Weird, I hadn't heard of this until today. I'm ADHD with an emphasis on the "H" - I can't sit still, ever. My two younger siblings, on the other hand, seem to fit the SCT definition perfectly. They've both always been more than happy to let me (when we were growing up) or someone else (ever since) take the lead and tell them what to do. All of us are inattentive in a big way, but my reaction to my problems is to act out and speak up, while they both tend to just quiet down and accept their weaknesses. Their approach is probably better.

Weird, I hadn't heard of this until today. I'm ADHD with an emphasis on the "H" - I can't sit still, ever. My two younger siblings, on the other hand, seem to fit the SCT definition perfectly. They've both always been more than happy to let me (when we were growing up) or someone else (ever since) take the lead and tell them what to do. All of us are inattentive in a big way, but my reaction to my problems is to act out and speak up, while they both tend to just quiet down and accept their weaknesses. Their approach is probably better.


I don't think that the "sluggishness" has anything to do with accepting weakness (perceived, suggested or real) or letting oneself be lead.

I am most definitely of this type, but at the same time I have never let anyone tell me what to do, or accept things that I thought could be worked on or improved. However, I do tend to avoid people that are aggressive or stomping over me because I hate conflict. But that has never meant defeat: I always fight back, and get where I want in the end, be it in my own way, in my own tempo.

If there is one thing that I have heard which stuck in my head forever it is Winston Churchill's words at the onset of WW2: "We will never surrender."

I have always felt that others judged my "being slow" or other characteristics as "weakness". They were wrong :cool:.

[quote=Luthien;687795]I don't think that the "sluggishness" has anything to do with accepting weakness (perceived, suggested or real) or letting oneself be lead...If there is one thing that I have heard which stuck in my head forever it is Winston Churchill's words at the onset of WW2: "We will never surrender."

I impulsively started that other SCT Thread before finding this one. I am anxious to find others who live with SCT. What's it been like for you? (I have a bagillion questions.)

Locus Ceruleus

The Locus ceruleus, also spelled locus caeruleus or locus coeruleus (Latin for 'the blue spot'), is a nucleus in the brain stem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stem) involved with physiological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology) responses to stress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_%28medicine%29) and panic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic).

In stress

The locus ceruleus is responsible for mediating many of the sympathetic effects during stress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_%28medicine%29). The locus ceruleus is activated by stress, and will respond by increasing norepinephrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine) secretion, which in turn will increase cognitive function (through the prefrontal cortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex)), increase motivation (through nucleus accumbens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleus_accumbens)), activate the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal_axis), and increase the sympathetic discharge/inhibit parasympathetic tone (through the brainstem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstem)). Specific to the activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary adrenal axis, norepinephrine will stimulate the secretion of corticotropin-releasing factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corticotropin-releasing_factor) from the hypothalamus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamus), which induces adrenocorticotropic hormone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenocorticotropic_hormone) release from the anterior pituitary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_pituitary) and subsequent cortisol synthesis in the adrenal glands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_glands). Norepinephrine released from locus ceruleus will feedback to inhibit its production, and corticotropin-releasing hormone will feedback to inhibit its production, while positively feeding to the locus ceruleus to increase norepinephrine production.


To dumb this down: This area of the brain does not CAUSE stress, but it is activated during stress. THIS is the starting point for the release of norepinephrine and adrenaline.

Most of us SCTers feel very little stress... And we think slowly. Coincidence? I don't think so.

There is a supplement called Pyritinol that stimulates this area of the brain. I take it every day. Literally, it makes me think faster. Pyritinol, combined with amphetamines (which indirectly act on the LC) is THE best cure I have found for sluggishness and motivation difficulties.

I am certain it is much more complicated than this, but I DO believe that there is a problem with THIS area of the brain in us SCTers. Because anything that stimulates this area of the brain makes me think faster.

So.... slowly but surely.... we're getting closer....

Very interesting. Where have you been buying your Pyritinol from? Brand?

I've been unsatisfied with the effects of Adderall and haven't taken it in a while. I was building up a tolerance, I had to take long naps for a couple of weeks after quitting. I've tried Brain Toniq (http://www.braintoniq.com) but don't get very much benefit compared to "normal" people.

Very interesting. Where have you been buying your Pyritinol from? Brand?

I've been unsatisfied with the effects of Adderall and haven't taken it in a while. I was building up a tolerance, I had to take long naps for a couple of weeks after quitting. I've tried Brain Toniq (http://www.braintoniq.com) but don't get very much benefit compared to "normal" people.


www.Bodybuilding.com search for pyritinol. It's brand is called "Unique Nutrition" although it may have changed to "Cognitive Nutrition."

Pyritinol doesn't really work that well by itself, at least in my experience. But combined with caffeine and L-Glutamine it works wonders.

<HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title -->Wow, after randomly falling on this SCT subject on wiki, and then finding this topic, I never really thought I had a disorder, but SCT fits me so well, it's hard to ingnore.

Ever since elementry school I've always had a motivational problem with work, I never studied, I would always do my projects the night before it's due, or even do it late and give it in a few days late(since I needed the teacher's push to get me motivated), but even with this said I always did good in school, I never got top notch grades in anything(but math n gym) since I would never study(but i'd still score 60-80's on my test) and mostly from not giving in projects or loosing points over giving it in late and this never bothered me at all, I just accepted it and moved on, I would rarely get stressed by anything. The only thing is that I was always good with math, and SCTers are supposed to be bad with math, but my reasoning with that, was that I was only good in math because I like math, it interests me so I was always focused to do it.

And I have found myself to be slow and not as witty orally but more fast and witty when writting, although with writting I've always had this annoying habbit where I would write a word and I would know that I'm misspelling it as I wrote it, I just wouldn't react till a few letters later or after finishing the word.

While socially people have always loved me since I was extremely laid back and I wouldn't be judgemental or aggressive, and I loved listening to people about their problems and help them, but then when it comes to topics that don't really interest me, I can't seem to communicate well, I end up drifting off for a bit and then changing the subject or fumbling with what to say which always rattled me since I know that I have such better or witter things to say.

I just recently graduated highschool, and enrolled into a trades program in college, since I was so unmotivated to do academic work and I loved sports/fitness, I figured it be best for me to do get into manual labour work, but what I found out was that the program wasn't mentally stimulating enough for me to be interested so I dropped out of the program and I've been thinking of going to university for botany, only problem is I'm scared my lack of motivation to do any work will flunk me out.

Also I've never been disgnosed with add or adhd, I'm pretty sure I got tested for it back in 3rd grade and they concluded I had nothing, so this is kinda controversial for me but I'm seeing the exact same problems I have in alot of people on this board and it's kinda comforting knowing that I could maybe help myself with this.

I have alot of other symptoms similar to some that people are recognizing in themselves, but I'm tired of writting and I need to force myself to sleep since its 5am.

Anyways, I've registered and I plan to keep tract of this subject since there isn't much on it anywhere else, and like I said, the similarities are too strong to ignore.

Twitchy,
I have the SCT symptoms and I'm officially diagnosed with inattentive ADHD. I have always liked math, esp. Algebra. In college, I started out majoring in Math but I had trouble with Calculus and ended up changing my major to Accounting. I now work as an office manager/bookkeeper.

Hopefully, there will be more scientific studies on inattentive ADHD and on SCT symptoms. In the meantime, we have each other.

I'm very similar to Twitchy and ADDMagnet. Great at math until I hit Calculus, lousy speaker but very good writer, laid back, not aggressive, good listener, well liked, though my Asperger's could make me come across as judgmental. Terrible at sports, again probably due to Asperger's. The 30 point difference between my sluggish processing speed score and the other three components of the standard IQ test screams SCT.

I'm still puzzled as to why my ADD/SCT didn't start becoming a serious problem until 10th grade. The only thing I can think of is that we'd moved the year before and the new water system wasn't as good, lots of sediment, putting greater stress on my kidneys? Then I started going heavy on soft drinks and really fell apart. The whites of my eyes have been dull but they're starting to clear up, a sign of kidney function slowly returning? Blood work says that I'm fine though. This could be a separate issue or nothing at all. I do think that there's something to the theory that the utter crap that's in the modern diet puts stress on the body's filters and sets off all sorts of problems.

Captain Obvious: I haven't placed the order yet but I think I should give Pyritinol a try. L-glutamine, my notes say: transports ammonia to the liver, fuels cells lining the intestine, metabolizes into glutamate so MSG sensitivity is a problem. I still have some from back when I tried that and L-carnitine, without success. I had trouble with high serum ammonia, very common with Asperger's.

I'm still puzzled as to why my ADD/SCT didn't start becoming a serious problem until 10th grade.

that is very common for all inattentives. It's called "hitting the wall": and it happens at a given time depending on the seriousness of the attention problems and your intelligence.

If you're reasonably smart you can sort of "freewheel" through the lower grades so that you do not need to pay attention or process input at an adequate speed. You'll absorb the knowledge through osmosis (anyway, that is how it feels to me).
But when the complexity of the subject matter increases, you will have to listen to the teacher / read your books, and then the trouble begins.

That makes sense. I'm a walking stereotype of the highly intelligent high-functioning Aspie, just with SCT thrown in to drive me mad. I could get by in high school without doing much homework but college would cram a year's worth of HS material into a single semester and you really had to read the book and do the homework or else. Reading the book was a foreign concept to me. I still managed to graduate but my grades weren't all that good.

Pyritinol is on its way. We'll see if that makes a difference.

That makes sense. I'm a walking stereotype of the highly intelligent high-functioning Aspie, just with SCT thrown in to drive me mad. I could get by in high school without doing much homework but college would cram a year's worth of HS material into a single semester and you really had to read the book and do the homework or else. Reading the book was a foreign concept to me. I still managed to graduate but my grades weren't all that good.

Pyritinol is on its way. We'll see if that makes a difference.

Pyritinol has only a three hour half-life, so don't expect it to be a panacea for your disease. I use it mainly in the mornings to help me get dressed/take a shower faster. It's not like adderall XR or something like that that you can feel all day. You'll notice it when you're reading, especially. But, like I said, earlier, it works best in combination with some kind of stimulant. Even caffeine would work.

Reading is my #1 problem so a few hours of clarity would be a godsend. What dosage of Pyritinol do you use? I haven't taken Adderall in a while but I still have some 10mg pills. I can go back to my doc for another prescription easily enough. Lately I've been drinking organic green tea with mint in the morning for a little caffeine, might just stick with that?

My Pyritinol is supposed to arrive tomorrow.

***Note: The following post is IN NO WAY meant to demean or insult Cashiers, retail sales folks, janitors, or other members of the lower rungs of the business hierarchy, hell I counted myself in your ranks once....***

@ Echo5Tango:

Thank you for willing to be shot down in the line of fire, to help us blaze a new branch in the Attention Deficit Family!


@ the APA (folks behind the DSM):
2012-1994=18 years!!!

Computer processors have gotten 40+ times faster, and the DSM-IV is.... Waiting....
Why are we waiting until 2012?

I realize the previous political climate set us back a decade scientifically, but it's a new day...

It should be revved at least once every 4 years, that's more than enough time for innovative research.

@ ADHDer's who are threatened by ADD-SCT:

In the immortal words of the Chili Peppers:


I love all of you
Hurt by the cold
So hard and lonely too
When you don't know yourself

I'm happy that the ADHDers can easily and concretly identify their traits,
We want to "know ourselves" too. I have no qualms about ADD-SCT(Beta).
Plus I'd love to have some of the Energy that ADHDer's can't get rid of.
ADD-SCT(Beta) is like "Oh my god! Somebody pull this piano off my chest so I can get out the damn door."

Nobody is any less of a human being just because your frontal striatums (See DAT1 Gene) are more affected vs our frontal parietals (See DRD4 Gene), and combined types as well of course are mixtures of these variants. (Biology is complicated to the point of insanity.)
Here's the link (6th post down whole article enclosed): http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25541&highlight=SCT

Kudos to Scuro for being awesome enough to include some lucid research in that thread!

Hell after diagnosis (TOVA), I was much humbled, relieved, then after Rx Adderall I just stopped judging anyone and everyone, if a little pill could make me THAT much better, then the enormity of my deviation from "normal" finally came crashing down on my consciousness.

It's still Attention Deficit, it's a big tent. Your family still loves you. :)

I like SCT(Beta), it brings clarity to what was neutrally coined "brain fog" or a "processing disorder", after being negatively labelled "laziness". As if a general term like "Processing Disorder" sheds any light on this. The more granular and precise the information the better.

Sure it's not rubber stamped yet, so lets call it SCT(Beta) {this is meant to be funny ha-ha} as in "Beta stage of development" not suitable for production use or widespread diagnostic glee, but you're still highly encouraged to download it and poke around. That way it can continue to be referred to without ruffling the "officially released label" folks' feathers.
It's still in Beta :)

I'm particularly interested in the working memory symptomology.

Have you guys heard of the correlation between working memory and Nicotine?

Makes me want to yank those carcinogenic support sticks out from under those folks at the office who act so "we're above it all, we're normal and cool" Watch em flagellate as thier neural crutches crack under the weight of knowledge work.

Maybe I like to judge, judgmental "normal people".

It's the working memory that wreaked havoc on my Algebra years!
SCT types have little to no visual problems so I would constantly try to draw the changes in equations.

Strong grounding metaphors and illustrative schemas worked wonders.

After taking some Psych courses at College, I stumbled on how memory works.
Now I repeat all my chapters at least 5 times, just to saturate my memory properly.
I figure of my working memory is dropping out at random intervals then only through repeated exposure to the same material can I hope to gain a comprehensive grasp of the subject matter.
And I try to incorporate what I already know sometimes about totally unrelated subjects to aid in "velcroing" the new knowledge in place.

Here's the link:
http://neuromanagement.wordpress.com/2008/11/10/memory-is-not-a-filing-system/

It must be nature's little Joke that good is thrown in with the bad, things like artistic ability or high intelligence often accompany ADD/ADHD. Just enough to know you're bright, but not so little as to allow you to live an ignorantly blissful moronic life...

Sometimes I wonder, if my IQ had been in the high 90s might I have had a generally happier life, resigned to the cash register, with a coterie of similarly gifted friends and coworkers....

Rather than slogging about in the 21st century knowledge economy with a mind only partially suited to the task.

I guess I'll never know...

re. correlation nicotine <-> working memory: I've heard no 'hard data' so far but I'd be very interested to hear about it.

When I quit smoking (both attempts, last one succeeded) I started getting extremely slow and foggy after a couple of weeks. Eventually it turned into very bad bad anxiety / crying spells, to the point of unable to work. First time I took up smoking again and the symptoms vanished in a day. The 2nd time got Luvox and eventually the anxiety became maneagable. It only vanished completely when I started on dex.

Oh and I wonder about what a lot of you describe as "slow thinkin". I recognize that only in specific cases: 'creative thinking' is actually very fast.
But trying to follow an explanation given orally is like wading through a meter of treacle.

I once met a lady from Spain,
Who began to become a big pain.
Said, "You ought to vamose."
She thought I said, "...moose."
And I never saw her again.


What I'd like to know is, why can I pop this out of my head from out of nowhere, but cannot remember numbers long enough to do simple calculations?:confused:

OHPE: Sometimes I wonder, if my IQ had been in the high 90s might I have had a generally happier life, resigned to the cash register, with a coterie of similarly gifted friends and coworkers....

Rather than slogging about in the 21st century knowledge economy with a mind only partially suited to the task.

I guess I'll never know...


When I was tested for ADD, I was told by the woman who did the testing, "If it weren't for your IQ, you'ld never notice you had a problem. As it is, though, you have a razor-sharp focus on your mental deficits and only a vague idea of of your abilities."

My fellow construction workers are (generally!) all over drinking, cars, sports, partying, television, sexy and bloody movies... "...faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money."

I like following social trends, religion, politics, acoustic music, human anatomy, biology, and behavior, and hiking in the mountains... "I love mankind. It's people I can't stand!"

Quote scuro:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> SCT
-A significant subset are hypoactive and sluggish and have slow response speeds.
-Primary deficit in working memory, especially prominent in auditory processing because of the demands it places on working memory
</td></tr></tbody></table>
I used to feel sluggish in the morning till I started working memory training about 6 months ago. I was quite surprised to see that the most useful result from the WM training was better alertness. I'm guessing that the working memory and sluggishness issues are in the same area of the brain. I completed the training several months ago and still feel very alert in the morning. It was a nice, unexpected bonus.

If you're interested in WM training, checkout Cogmed (see link in my footer) or the Brain Fitness Program by Posit Science.

ADD-SCT(Beta) is like "Oh my god! Somebody pull this piano off my chest so I can get out the damn door."

YES!!!

CogMed is $1500 i guess and has mixed reviews, i know luminosity is decent and its free, or mostly free?

Cogmed is definitely expensive. Lumosity is a pretty good option, but just keep in mind that only some of the exercises are specifically for working memory. I also wrote up a set of exercises for working memory based on the Cogmed research paper. It pretty inexpensive to do WM training if you follow this set of exercises (available on the Cogmed thread shown in see my footer).

Another option is the Brain Fitness Program (BFP) by Posit Science which is $400. BFP was not designed for ADHD folks but for elderly folks who are losing some of their cognitive skills, but it has really helped my working memory. These also offer a 90 day money back guarantee, so if you don't like it, you can send it back. The guys at Posit Science are on the cutting edge of neuroscience so I think it's a very good investment.

I forgot to mention this earlier. Here's a thread about using light therapy that seems to help some folks be more alert:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62508

So I've been using Pyritinol twice a day for several days. The morning dose is paired with organic green tea with mint, one or two mugs. I started pairing the midday dose with Brain Toniq, which to be fair isn't a stimulant. That worked a little. The last two days I paired the midday dose with 10mg Adderall. Oh yes, pairing Pyritinol with Addy works MUCH better. I'll stick with tea in the morning since I think it has other health benefits and I'd like to keep my Adderall use to a minimum. Brain Toniq just doesn't do much for me. I guess it mostly works on "normal" people.

It still takes me too long to read stuff but the improvement is worth it. Of course, since I hadn't taken Addy for several weeks that's undoubtedly influencing my results. We'll see if the effects last. If Pyritinol lets me keep my Addy dose low, awesome.

Next time I'll probably order direct from Cognitive Nutrition. They have some other supplements that look interesting, like L-DOPA.

So I've been using Pyritinol twice a day for several days. The morning dose is paired with organic green tea with mint, one or two mugs. I started pairing the midday dose with Brain Toniq, which to be fair isn't a stimulant. That worked a little. The last two days I paired the midday dose with 10mg Adderall. Oh yes, pairing Pyritinol with Addy works MUCH better. I'll stick with tea in the morning since I think it has other health benefits and I'd like to keep my Adderall use to a minimum. Brain Toniq just doesn't do much for me. I guess it mostly works on "normal" people.

It still takes me too long to read stuff but the improvement is worth it. Of course, since I hadn't taken Addy for several weeks that's undoubtedly influencing my results. We'll see if the effects last. If Pyritinol lets me keep my Addy dose low, awesome.

Next time I'll probably order direct from Cognitive Nutrition. They have some other supplements that look interesting, like L-DOPA.

I take L-DOPA. But you can't be reckless with it. You can't just dose it any time you want, at whatever dosage you want. Too much L-DOPA can lead to VERY toxic effects on the brain. Anti-oxidants help, especially Vitamin C, but they don't completely prevent the risks of side-effects.

These side-effects are known as dyskinesia. The hand shaking you see with parkinson's disease is related to L-DOPA supplementation. They're not sure if it's the disease itself, the L-DOPA itself, or the combination of the two, but either way, one should be very careful when taking L-DOPA. Never take it for an extended period of time without a good anti-oxidant regimen and some sort of NMDA antagonist or sigma ligand.

hi *firstdesserts *you said about the vidos do you have more sooo i can make notessss sooo that i may email *Dr. Barkley* if you could psss the email add to me assss i like to send him one as welll!!! as there alot things he has brought up and id like ask frew thingssss and see what they have to say there great vidos thanks for posting them dorm *

Hello. I am new to the forum. After reading the Wikipedia entry on SCT and listening to Dr. Russell Barkley's lecture on YouTube I am certain that I also have SCT.

I read the previous entries and noticed some similarities and differences.

I can't hold an math problem in my mind's eye while calculating. I have to put it on paper so I can refer back to it.

I can walk and talk as fast as most people do so, I often pass as normal. I have no trouble getting to work on time and I am not tired all the time.

On the other hand, I would be one on the last to finish a test in any subject. In basic math I often could not finish timed tests. Oddly I did well at high math (Geometry through differential equations) but not so well at lower math.

I am error prone and it takes me longer to do work. I have to find ways to speed things up like making and following checklists for projects and making macros for repetitive things.

I love to keep my mind stimulated by reading even though I am slow at it. I can write but it takes a while to word it the way I want to. For emails I have to refer to other emails to find courteous phrases.

I often miss exits and have to make u-turns when driving.

I can't remember peoples names and am very quiet. I have a hard time starting conversations, following conversations and finding the words to say when I want to make a point.

I am glad to have found this post. I hope to learn from others how they cope. I have not decided whether or not to try medicine or not.

Hi Tencifen, welcome ... I know it's offtopic a bit to say welcome in a non welcome topic, so let me disguise it a bit ...

*ehrm*

I read the previous entries and noticed some similarities and differences.
Ah, it is good there remain some! It'd get to be awfully boring if it weren't so.

I can't hold an math problem in my mind's eye while calculating. I have to put it on paper so I can refer back to it.
That's a BIG "yes me too!"

I can walk and talk as fast as most people do so, I often pass as normal. I have no trouble getting to work on time and I am not tired all the time.
I'd say a 2.5 out of 4. I can walk and talk fast - well, some times, not necessarily all the time .. but have a hell of a lot of trouble getting to work on time.

I thought the other day that it may be some sort of hitherto undiscovered relativity principle: the invariance of ADD time shortage. It goes like this: you are always five minutes* late, even if you compensate that because you know it. Somehow, time shrinks when you get up earlier. Or the universe stretches. Same result: too late.

* or 10, or 15 minutes .. does not matter, the principle stays the same.

I'm not tired either. Hardly ever. It's annoying, because it tends to cause a lack of sleep.

On the other hand, I would be one on the last to finish a test in any subject. In basic math I often could not finish timed tests. Oddly I did well at high math (Geometry through differential equations) but not so well at lower math.
I hate timed tests. But I do some very well, others very poor. Especially where that combination of "holding something in mind" and "processing" comes in.

I am error prone and it takes me longer to do work. I have to find ways to speed things up like making and following checklists for projects and making macros for repetitive things.
I recognise the macro's and shortcuts thing. But that's good in my opinion. Work smarter, not harder. Even for NT folk.
Checklists don't work too well. When I am busy with something else (hyperfocus is the worst) I just do not look on them, or, when they are of the kind that beeps, I hit the "snooze" button until it stops.

I love to keep my mind stimulated by reading even though I am slow at it. I can write but it takes a while to word it the way I want to. For emails I have to refer to other emails to find courteous phrases.
I don't know if I am slow at that. I think that I am slow in the I/O, but fast in the CPU. So it depends on whether the job is I/O intensive I suppose.

I often miss exits and have to make u-turns when driving.
I hope not when you have dual carriageways :eek:

I can't remember peoples names and am very quiet.
yes, certainly that one too ...

I have a hard time starting conversations, following conversations and finding the words to say when I want to make a point.
check check check check check - it is one of the things that are most visible to the outside world.

I am glad to have found this post. I hope to learn from others how they cope. I have not decided whether or not to try medicine or not.

when you decide to try, you can still decide to not actually *use* it.

Welcome!
- Lúthien

I take L-DOPA. But you can't be reckless with it. You can't just dose it any time you want, at whatever dosage you want. Too much L-DOPA can lead to VERY toxic effects on the brain. Anti-oxidants help, especially Vitamin C, but they don't completely prevent the risks of side-effects.

These side-effects are known as dyskinesia. The hand shaking you see with parkinson's disease is related to L-DOPA supplementation. They're not sure if it's the disease itself, the L-DOPA itself, or the combination of the two, but either way, one should be very careful when taking L-DOPA. Never take it for an extended period of time without a good anti-oxidant regimen and some sort of NMDA antagonist or sigma ligand.
No L-DOPA for me then.

10mg of Adderall plus one Pyritinol capsule once or twice a day seemed to be helping, then I found out from Cognitive Nutrition that they're out of Pyritinol for the next 4-5 weeks. So I'm rationing my remaining capsules. Is there anything else I should try until they're back in stock? The bottle recommends Piracetam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam) and L-Huperzine A to go with it, have you tried either of those? L-Huperzine A sounds a bit risky, Pyritinol less so.

4)To what benefit is changing the name from ADD-PI to SCT-> Really does it make a difference seeing the conditions respond to the same treatments. :confused:

I watched the video with this Doctor and he suggest NOT using Adderall and such to fix this ADHD-PI. He think some form of CBT and Social Skills training along with some med called strattera<SP?>

I don't know if this had been mentioned yet....I am still shifting all the pages

Can I say that I don't particularly care if this diagnostic issue is resolved? Like it or not, this thread IS the de facto "inattentive" section in this forum.

After a day like today it is good to be amongst those that can understand. I do wish I could trade some unlucky person a day doing some of the"knowledge work" that some here engage in with a day at the cash register that I just finished...

...I always fight back, and get where I want in the end, be it in my own way, in my own tempo.

there harder life is the more you tight back

dorm

ahhh... I've finally found the 'inattentive' section of the forum.

nice to see you all :D

I am currently on strattera. I find this drug to work great for sct in addition to anxiety/depression. I am now more attentive in conversations and i feel like my brain has finally woken up. Lemme no if any of you notice similiar results while on strattera.

I watched the video with this Doctor and he suggest NOT using Adderall and such to fix this ADHD-PI. He think some form of CBT and Social Skills training along with some med called strattera<SP?>


And where, I wonder, does this Video Doctor get that wisdom from?
As far as I know, the only hard fact that I have seen in this context (inattentive / SCT vs ADHD w/ H *and* medication) is that we respond better to amphetamine based meds (ie Adderall or dex), as opposed to methylphenidate (ie Ritalin).

He think some form of CBT and Social Skills training ...

oh, here we go again. :mad:

The umpteenth anti-stimulant-alternative-practitioner who thinks they do good ignoring decades of clinical practice and research which tells that stimulant meds do help us.
If it weren't for the dozens of times that I have now read about all those "new" ADD ppl who are made to go through the grind of being put on several different AD's in a row or other "treatments" before they find a doc who is knowledgeable about AD(H)D - it might even be funny.

Only, it isn't.

And the CBT and social sk- my goodness! I just don't know whether to laugh or cry about this.
Sure! Of course! One thing though - therapy - hah! - therapy's too good for them. Why not flog a bit of discipline and action into those unwilling lazy so-called ADHD'ers?

:mad:

... along with some med called strattera<SP?>


I am currently on strattera. I find this drug to work great for sct in addition to anxiety/depression. I am now more attentive in conversations and i feel like my brain has finally woken up. Lemme no if any of you notice similiar results while on strattera.

For me Strattera was awful - even in the slowest possible titrating up. Made me depressed, walk unsteady, groggy, tearful, anxious.

There's a couple things i forgot to mention though. I am not only on strattera. I am also taking zyprexa 5mg for mood and celexa for anxiety/depression. Over the summer i took effexor 150mg and celexa 20mg and it didn't work good for me. So i have to assume that it's the combo that is making it work for me

There's a couple things i forgot to mention though. I am not only on strattera. I am also taking zyprexa 5mg for mood and celexa for anxiety/depression. Over the summer i took effexor 150mg and celexa 20mg and it didn't work good for me. So i have to assume that it's the combo that is making it work for me

did you try out other meds before that?

Yes. i am 21 now. When i was 16 i was put on paxil for social anxiety disorder. I went off it when i was 18. I went on celexa 20mg when i was 20. Last May i went on effexor 75 titrated up to 150mg while also on celexa 20mg. In august, after being majorly depressed, my doctor put me on zyprexa 2.5mg in addition to effexor 150mg and took me off celexa. In september, my doc put me on strattera 40mg twice a day, took me off effexor completely, put me back on celexa 40mg, and raised me up to 5mg zyprexa. In january, i was titrated up to 60mg twice daily on strattera, 5mg zyprexa, and 40mg of celexa. This combination of meds has been working really good for me so far.

So I've come to the conclusion that this SCT thing is a glutamate malfunction. NOT a dopaminergic or norepinephrinergic one. That said amphetamines DO help, but indirectly.

Let me explain.

I was put on a medication called namenda that is called an "NMDA'' receptor antagonist. The neurotransmitter glutamate binds to this receptor. So this medication prevents glutamate from binding to these receptors. What's the purpose of this? Read on...

Amphetamines stimulate LOTS of different neuro transmitters, thus they have very potent effects. However, has anyone else noticed that they seem to lose their potency after a few days? That's because of glutamate.

Glutamate is toxic to neurons in high amounts. Amphetamines raise glutamate to toxic amounts, EVEN at normal therapeautic dosages. In other words, you don't have to be an ABuser to experience the neurotoxicity over time.

Your body's response to this is to de-sensitize the glutamate receptors. THIS ACTION makes amphetamines SAFE to take for long periods of time without damaging the brain permanently.

HOWEVER, by doing this, you lose some of the effects. The HIGH ENERGY, SPEED, MOOD, AND MOTIVATION effects.

This is NOT to say that stims are dangerous. They are extremely safe if taken responsibly. BUT, their theraputic potential is VASTLY reduced over time.... Even so, they're better than nothing.

Getting back to my Namenda and NMDA glutamate receptors, Namenda REGULATES these receptors so that healthy levels of glutamate can still flow, but not the unhealthy levels. It puts a CEILING effect on glutamate binding, so to speak.

What this does is ELIMINATE THE TOLERANCE TO AMPHETAMINE'S "FIRST FEW DAYS" EFFECTS. This is MUCH more therapeutic than amphetamine consumption over-time WITHOUT the protective effect of Namenda.:D:D:D

Namenda is actually an Alzheimer's medication, and it's mechanism of action on regulating the glutamate neurotransmitter is helpful in this disease....

So, in other words, this tolerance-blocking effect is a SIDE EFFECT!!! :D

At the end of all this... when the train of confusing information reaches the station, so to speak, is that you can ENHANCE the performance of your medication to not only be "normal" but even BETTER THAN NORMAL. In other words... REACH YOUR FULL POTENTIAL!

How can you do this?? More on that next post... ;)



Wow.... re-reading that makes it look like I'm some kind of medication sales-person. I'm NOT. This post is based on my experiences and my research as an individual, and I have no affiliation with any pharmaceutical company. I am not trying to sell my ideas for any personal gain. I am merely posting this information to help people on this site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memantine (aka Namenda)
Lots of good stuff there, including a link to an "Open-Label Pilot Study of Namenda in Adult Subjects With ADHD and ADHD NOS":
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00586573?term=ADHD
Oh man, I would love to get in on that study. It looks like they're targeting adult inattentives. Massachusetts is too far for me to travel though.

I look forward to your next post Captain Obvious!

This subject has come up before here:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-21116.html
http://www.addforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-21882.html
Namenda is used on autistics too with mixed but often very good results, especially on the milder end of the spectrum. It sounds like a very expensive drug?

So I've come to the conclusion that this SCT thing is a glutamate malfunction. NOT a dopaminergic or norepinephrinergic one. That said amphetamines DO help, but indirectly.

Let me explain.

So what research did you do to arrive at this conclusion? Or is it your own experience combined with reading available information?

However, has anyone else noticed that they [amphetamines] seem to lose their potency after a few days?

No, not at all...

I've used it over a year now, and it still works as well as it did on the first day.

please don't tell me they lose potency... lol

how soon do people feel it lose potency? i have been on amphetamines for 3 weeks now and i haven't felt it work any less. when i first read this post i feel convinced i must have sct... it explains so much! and yes i do have add-pi, yet amphetamines have worked wonders for me.

I've been on amphetamines (Vyvanse) for 10 months now and I haven't seen any loss in potency.

Interesting.... I guess it depends on the "effects" you're describing... The attention affect is documented to acutaly INCREASE with repeated dosing. But what I'm talking about are the giddy, happy, motivated feelings. The "magic" if you will.... but who knows, maybe at certain doses or with certain people tolerance does not develop. All I know is that it does for me.

More on increasing brain potential in addition to amphetamines later. ;)

I've noticed that amphetamines lose their punch over time with me too. I've been taking a day or two off a week to help prevent that.

I'm starting to think that I got my ADD under control some time ago and what I'm left with is an eye problem. Convergence insufficiency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_insufficiency) is the popular one for ADHD patients, with three times the likelyhood of CI than the general population and visa-versa. It fits with late presentation (~15 for me) too. If you're expending extra energy keeping your eyes on track you'll have less energy to process what you're reading. I suspect that taking medical grade amphetamines helps to counterweight that fatigue. CI and other such problems are independent of whether you have 20/20 vision so it's easy to miss. Optometrists occasionally know, ophthalmologists rarely do. At this point reading is my #1 problem and the year I started to fall apart was also the year my eyes got bad enough to require glasses, plus doing things like marathon video game sessions used to really mess up my head. If your symptoms started late like mine did that may suggest an eye problem?

Much better link: Convergence insufficiency (http://www.causeof.org/converge.htm)

The subject occasionally shows up here, like in this thread:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13750

Another website:
http://www.convergenceinsufficiency.org/

I'm speculating that people who don't have trouble with stimulant resistance have "real" ADHD-PI and that the rest of us only have an eye problem or had ADHD-PI but got it under control. I've made an appointment to be checked out. I've been wondering why staying focused on heavy reading is still so troublesome despite my mind having largely cleared up.

Technojunkie, I also checked out convergence insuffiency, and found an optometrist who confirmed I had it (didn´t tell her anything about my problems, just went for a check, so that is objective). HOWEVER. I noticed that my problems with eye focus has improved a lot on Strattera, and that the improvement in how easy it is to controle eye movements parallells the improvement in controling the rest of my body. The prefrontal cortex and neighbouring areas are very important in integrating motoric signals to create smooth, effective movements. I think the ADD could be causing the eye problems, and not the other way around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomoxetine (Strattera)

Interesting. No generic in America so it must be expensive and the potential side effects are worrying. I've been getting by with 10mg Adderall once per day lately so I think I'll stick with that for now. We'll see if vision therapy does anything. Given my late presentation I suspect that it will. It sounds like I'll be on some kind of meds no matter what though?

Another thing: my mathematical ability wasn't nearly as impaired as general reading. Perhaps because math has far fewer symbols to read? I do most computation in my head, to the annoyance of teachers who wanted me to show my work. Standardized tests, with their short questions, work very well for me while real work wears me down.

Okay, I was gonna fill you in with how I got phenominal results off a certain combination of supplements/drugs that mediate glutamate and it's receptors, but it appears I have some more homework to do.

Ironically, even though that all the stuff I mentioned about amphetamine tolerance and NMDA antagonists is completely true without a doubt.... and DOESN'T go away with time... My way of taking it one step further and maximizing the glutamate flow in those same pathways that ARE completely protected and do not get damaged with my method (I think... not sure) seems to have a point of diminishing returns.... i.e. you can get tolerant to THAT... It only works for a couple days... but still prevent tolerance to your drugs indefinitely. That tolerance does NOT go away, at least from my experience.

No doubt most of you are probably confused by now, but basically my way of doing it was -- for all you street car racers -- was like running the brain just under redline. Namenda prevents the RPM from reaching the redline... but if you push that to the limit, it appears your body STILL desensitizes it, even though it's not over the threshold level. But, at the same time, you still don't develop tolerance to your ADDERALL.... but just to my "overdrive" method. Which combined some supplements to it.

I still don't believe it's dangerous, because what I'm using to achieve that "overdrive" is a combination of amino acids and vitamins, not other strange chemicals, but I need to work on it a bit before I can figure out a way to either stop that desensitization, or find a schedule to keep tolerance at a minimum... i.e. how long a break before it will work again.

If you're still confused, I don't blame you. I'm kinda being vague intentionally... I'm not hiding any dangers, I'm just hiding the final model before I'm satisfied that it will work consistently....

Again, I'm no pharmacy rep, or supplement rep... I'm not researching/producing any kind of product that I'll benefit on... I just wanna wait till I get it figured all out before I release the knowlege of it... and to make sure that it's safe... so people won't go trying it out and messing with their brains, because it DOES produce INCREDIBLE results at first, but then they seem to dissipate. *sighs* I guess that's the way life is... every good thing has a catch... and the more profound the benefit, the more likely it is to be dangerous.

Anyway... After I do some homework and get a "tolerance schedule" worked out... I'll present it to you... it's really just a combination of vitamins and proteins... but it's a specific combination that produces these results.



Also, technojunkie, the L-Dopa dangers I mentioned (like producing Parkinson's symptoms) I've found were slightly pre-mature conclusions. From my research recently -- and from my personal experience, cause I use it almost every day -- it appears that the damage/bad side effects only occur in those who's brains are damaged in the first place... (i.e. you have to have Parkinson's or something similar, which is a desease of a DEFECT OF PROTECTIVE MECHANISMS, to get the bad side effects... i.e. again... you have to have the disease for the medicine to produce the side-effects (irony?) because a HEALTHY brain can protect itself against it)


In other words, it works fine with no problems in people with healthy brains. I know this from experience and can direct you to a site where a poster who is very knowlegable on the subject has posted a multitude of valid, legitimate scientific studies proving it does not pose much of a threat in healthy brains, as long as it's used responsibly.

Hey there just saying sup? Like many of you, I get bored and depressed easily. I have to be stimulated all the time.
Conversations rarely pull me out of whereever I'm at mentally. I guess that one's a little more ADHD-I, but fudge it.I can't hold a conversation to save my life. I always envied those who could. When I'm with a good friend, my mind can function fast enough to hold a decent conversation. I often have to ask twice to get a grasp on anything verbal. I often come off as dull and slow. Holding eye contact seems liek an overload no one else can understand. People always made fun of me for my slowness. The more I forgot, the worse I would forget. It's all too arduous. I just make sure things are done at my speed now. I work at a fairly repititious job, which rarely stresses me out. With the lowered stress comes a lot of boredom. I have to ask my bosses to switch me around every once in a while just save my sanity.
School always bored me and I was edxhausted all the time. I never studied in high school. I just relied on whatever knowledge I gleaned to pass the ACTs to get into university. I had a 1.6 gpa.In college, I crammed like most of you. I always passed the finals, but felt like I coulda done more.
My only cure for my fog has been stimulation. I get this from athletics, travel, and caffeine. The caffeine is my drug of choice. Most my friends and cooworkers woudl hurl if they drank the amount of coffee I did every work day. During school, I could focus only if I had a coffee before or during lectures. Weekends require less caffeine. It doesn't cure anythning, just helps maintain a slightly higher leval of concentration than normal. Athletics help get the heart rate up, but travel is the ultimate adreniline rush for me. I only feel alive then. New places and cultures waiting to be explored.
After my latest trip, things seem to have gotten better. I think that I may have developed better coping methods or something while away. I stll have problems, but they seem less important now. Thanks for taking the tme for me. I didn't know there were others out there that can feel my daily existance.

I didn't know there were others out there that can feel my daily existance.

Of course we do! Welcome to your new home, Dogg!

Is working out with amphetamines Ok or not? I like to get my heart rate up 4-5 times a week, but worry about the effects of amphetamines. Any advice?

I also have a fairly fast metabolism. I tend to eat all the time, but I never gain a pound, a side effect of my active lifestyle. To what extent do amphetamines suppress appetite?

Will I have to cut alchohol? I'm not a heavy drinker, but like a daily drink or two. Rarely drink more than two.

I'm not currently on any meds, just researching before I do anything.

Thanks everyone,
TheJdoggitsmorestreet

once when i was having one of those mini-breakdown episodes where the weight of all my frustrations and disorders and problems was getting to me i was ranting to my brother on how much of a struggle my concentration problems are and how i hate that they are holding me back so much in life, i sent him info on SCT and ADD-I and he just laughed and said that's just part of my personality and it's NOT a disorder. this is someone who is studying psych and neuroscience and also has a mental illness and knows about my other disorders. it was pretty demoralizing to tell you the truth.

i also have bipolar disoder type II, and although i am still unstable at times the medication is helping and i'm able to distinguish and seperate the depression and the ADD-PI symptoms.

its great to hear that some have been helped by adderall. i really hope it goes well for me. i'm just worried my doctor won't put me on a high dose since he says the highest to the point where it works best is 20mg but i've read many times that a lot of patients take a higher amount.


i also have severe social phobia, which has been very debilitating in my life but lately i've been taking gradual steps in treating it through exposure and i've been fairly successfull though i still struggle and it's still very difficult. i'm very curious to see if that improves through the use of adderall as a lot of my difficulties socializing, my lack of social skills and lack of confidence in speaking partly have to do with my constant awareness of language problems and my slow responsiveness/mental processing. should be intersting.



i admit i wish i could read through all of this thread without skipping past long posts, hahaha.

SCT with Asperger's has brought me to a life-halting crisis now that I've finished grad school. I posted an introduction earlier on the Asperger's subforum (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66311) that partly explains how I've gotten to this deadend. For me, SCT mostly means not being able to sustain writing decently, among many other inabilities, as part of a job.

Dissolved girl: hope you're doing better, most of us in this thread have had SCT / add problems and it seems like next time you have a breakdown you should come to us or a different family member that understands it happens.

SCT with Asperger's has brought me to a life-halting crisis now that I've finished grad school. I posted an introduction earlier on the Asperger's subforum (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66311) that partly explains how I've gotten to this deadend. For me, SCT mostly means not being able to sustain writing decently, among many other inabilities, as part of a job.
i am not one to judge but it seems from reading your post that you write quite nicely? or is the problem that it takes you a while to think of what to write?

hey, DISSOLVED GIRL

the thing is... when you get right down to it, just about all mental disorders are "personality issues." They are one and the same. Why?

CAUSE PERSONALITY IS MEDIATED BY CHEMICALS JUST AS MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE IN YOUR BODY.

If it's a personality quality/disorder, then it's a chemical one. Cause chemicals mediate your personality.

Whether or not we have a "soul" separate from our physical body is irrelevant(I, for one, believe we do). But here, on this earth, in this universe, your personality is mediated by reactions of little molecules, not by your soul, "consciousness," or anything else that someone would like to believe can overcome the rules of physics and chemistry.

tell that to your brother.

It appears that sitting further away from your monitor, about 3 feet or so, is helpful for convergence insufficiency. Glossy, highly reflective screens are bad, like they've put on just about every consumer notebook in the past few years. Increase your font size, ctrl-scrollwheel in your web browser, to compensate as needed. I've felt much less need to grab an Adderall since trying this, which I didn't predict but it makes sense. I'm not burning out as quickly. Most people, myself included, instinctively lean forward when they're having trouble reading and that's very bad for CI. I haven't seen the new doc yet so this is still not confirmed. Pencil push-ups were causing too much strain, probably because I'm still trying to read several hours per day, so I've stopped those until I see the doc.

I also was horrible at basic arithmetic, but did very well in geometry, algebra and engineering calculas. My spelling and grammer is also bad.
I've always wondered why I can calculate things in my mind and require a calculator when I need to add, multiply or divide.

anyone else find this and figured it out?



Hello. I am new to the forum. After reading the Wikipedia entry on SCT and listening to Dr. Russell Barkley's lecture on YouTube I am certain that I also have SCT.

I read the previous entries and noticed some similarities and differences.

I can't hold an math problem in my mind's eye while calculating. I have to put it on paper so I can refer back to it.

I can walk and talk as fast as most people do so, I often pass as normal. I have no trouble getting to work on time and I am not tired all the time.

On the other hand, I would be one on the last to finish a test in any subject. In basic math I often could not finish timed tests. Oddly I did well at high math (Geometry through differential equations) but not so well at lower math.

I am error prone and it takes me longer to do work. I have to find ways to speed things up like making and following checklists for projects and making macros for repetitive things.

I love to keep my mind stimulated by reading even though I am slow at it. I can write but it takes a while to word it the way I want to. For emails I have to refer to other emails to find courteous phrases.

I often miss exits and have to make u-turns when driving.

I can't remember peoples names and am very quiet. I have a hard time starting conversations, following conversations and finding the words to say when I want to make a point.

I am glad to have found this post. I hope to learn from others how they cope. I have not decided whether or not to try medicine or not.

I just got back from being evaluated for convergence insufficiency and... that's why my reading ability and focus have been so messed up. My eye tracking is poor too. Vision therapy should fix both, though due to my age it'll take longer than if it had been caught early. In retrospect I fixed my ADD quite some time ago by removing synthetics from my diet and exercising more. CI started around 10th grade, which is typical, and ADD started in college when Mom was no longer fixing all of my food and I picked up my 1-2 liter/day soft drink habit.

Sitting further back from your monitor helps compensate for CI. I was instinctively leaning forward which made things worse. I switched to my desktop PC and its nice big monitor from my glossy screen notebook, moved close to 3 feet back (ctrl-scrollwheel to increase font size), and to my surprise I no longer feel the need to reach for Adderall anymore. The small dose of Adderall I was taking was compensating for my mind burning out on visual stress.

BTW, glossy screens are Bad. Get an antiglare film for your notebook from:
http://www.photodon.com/lcdprotect-sheet.htm
It'll protect the screen from scratches too. Business notebooks typically have antiglare screens but practically every consumer notebook made in the past few years is glossy.

I just got back from being evaluated for convergence insufficiency and... that's why my reading ability and focus have been so messed up. My eye tracking is poor too. Vision therapy should fix both, though due to my age it'll take longer than if it had been caught early. In retrospect I fixed my ADD quite some time ago by removing synthetics from my diet and exercising more. CI started around 10th grade, which is typical, and ADD started in college when Mom was no longer fixing all of my food and I picked up my 1-2 liter/day soft drink habit.

Sitting further back from your monitor helps compensate for CI. I was instinctively leaning forward which made things worse. I switched to my desktop PC and its nice big monitor from my glossy screen notebook, moved close to 3 feet back (ctrl-scrollwheel to increase font size), and to my surprise I no longer feel the need to reach for Adderall anymore. The small dose of Adderall I was taking was compensating for my mind burning out on visual stress.

Adding all that up, does that mean that you never had ADD (since that starts at an early age, even though some circumstances like IQ, lack of hyperactivity [...] may mask it) but your eyes need a tweak and you needed to drop the excess sugar?

That's good you could fix it. ADD can't be fixed. Worked around, maybe.



BTW, glossy screens are Bad. Get an antiglare film for your notebook


Better: get a mac. They're not only antiglare; they also don't have windows, but an add-friendly (and eye-friendly) operating system :cool:

Honestly, I don't know. I do know that petrochemical and other artificial colorings, flavorings and preservatives will cause symptoms that appear to be ADHD. I suspect that most of the massive jump in reported ADD cases is from this. Prescription stimulants can paper over all sorts of problems. The combination of CI (easily mistaken for ADD) plus my reaction to synthetics looked a lot like ADD. Eliminating that "noise" will tell you whether you have "real" ADD or not?

British study linking additives to ADHD:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673607613063/abstract
They're well on their way to banning the stuff there. Many food manufacturers have already complied, including multinationals that still sell the toxic stuff in America.

You know how chocolate is toxic to dogs? They react by going hyper. Same principal at work in (some) humans with synthetic additives.

Reducing refined sugar intake and maintaining a less than strict GFCF diet is more about keeping my cranky digestive system in order than anything behavioral I think. People often mistake the reaction to synthetic additives in candy and pop for a "sugar buzz" or such. Some people do have behavioral reactions to gluten and casein, autistics mostly.

My desktop PC runs Linux, though it can run Windows in a virtual machine if needed. My laptop runs Vista though I'm tempted to put Linux on it. A Mac would be nice, lots of Linux people have bought Macs, but I'm running out of credit limit to abuse. Not all MacBooks have antiglare screens either. I've read quite a few complaints about that.

Hello, I'm very happy of find this information about SCT. It's very impressive how the description of this disorder matches so well with my situation. (Sorry if my english is too weird but it isn't my native language.)

I never have been diagnosed by any psychiatrist, given that in my country this is not a common practice, I only suspect about having some kind of psychological disorder. In fact I read some stuff about Asperger's syndrome discovering that although I have some of the symptoms, like some degree of lack of social interaction, definetively I don't like to do repetitive things.

I also read about ADHD and also found information which didn't match with my case. So I thought for some time it was only my imagination, but now I realize that is a serious problem becouse I can't even have things finnished in mi job. I want to work but I can't, and doesn't matter how many times I repeat myself I have to do the work!

So i was searching again for information about psychological disorders and I ended up in this forum. In fact I was unaware about some symptoms that i have, and I only realize about them reading the information about SCT posted in this thread. Specially I wonder to find that this disorder explain my auditory processing problems that I thought was a completely unrelated problem.

In this aspect I find interesting that the auditory problem is only noticeable when my interlocutor starts the talk, becouse I can't concentrate on it enough fast, so many times I need to ask to him/her repeat what he/she said. Sometimes if the interlocutor doesn't speaks clearly enough, the person has to repeat me the words more than once, so I prefer in this case to just guess the question/comment to avoid get anger him/her.


Happily I have no problems with math, indeed I'm good :D, nevertheless I have problems with mental calculations, and with thinking fast. In school I never could follow the explanation of teachers, I prefered to study at books, which I do quite well, without help. In any case the main problems in my situation are the lack of motivation and the impossibility to concentrate in one task for a enough time.

I'm thinking now in consult a psychiatrist and I hope that I could find one who is familiar with this kind of disorders. This thread helped me a lot, thank you.

Hola! Como estas? I'm glad you found us. There is a lot of good information here, as well as help and advice.

I share your audio processing issues Jose. I have gotten into the habit when people give me directions to shake my head so it looks like I'm listening -- then when they are finished I sneak off and find a map!

In this aspect I find interesting that the auditory problem is only noticeable when my interlocutor starts the talk, becouse I can't concentrate on it enough fast, so many times I need to ask to him/her repeat what he/she said. Sometimes if the interlocutor doesn't speaks clearly enough, the person has to repeat me the words more than once, so I prefer in this case to just guess the question/comment to avoid get anger him/her.

I'm sorry, I read through 2 pages, but couldn't make it through all 13. I tried googling for this question also. I guess I don't understand the difference between ADHD-I and SCT? What does SCT bring to the table that ADHD-I doesn't? Because it most definetely sounds like me - but so does everything I read about ADHD-I, which I have been diagnosed with. I just can't seem to find anything that shows me the differences between the two, to see if a diagnosis of SCT (or just discovering more about it) is worth my time to go forward with. It seems treatments for the two are similar, but I also saw a lot of Adderall-only treatment responses regarding SCT, where as ADHD-I you can take any stimulant that helps you. I'm currently on Vyvanse for my ADHD-I but I would like to know if it's worth it to discuss switching to Adderall instead, if I really do have SCT... or if there is a difference. I also saw a lot of people discussing their issues with math - one thing I've never had an issue with. I was actually in pre-calc my junior year of high school, but my high school only required 3 years of math to graduate and moving on to calculus would require going to a class at the local community college, at the time I didn't have a car so I just gave up math. I guess I'm just confused with the differences.

Thank you to whoever answers that. I really did try reading through but after about 2 pages I couldn't focus anymore :-/


I also have the auditory problem mentioned above - someone can tell me directions or instructions on something and halfway through their sentence I wont remember the first part of what they said, so I'll start thinking about it, which makes me miss the second part of what they end up saying, so I have to ask them to repeat. I've also purchased a cell phone with GPS on it, because whenever anyone would give me directions and I tried to follow them I would get lost within 5 minutes. I've lived in the same city for my entire life, and I still get lost in my surrounding neighborhoods.

Short answer: SCT is ADHD-I with the processing speed component of the standard IQ test scoring ~30 points below the other components.

Hello, I was reading through information on (SCT) and found that it described me almost perfectly. I'll just share some information that you may find true also.

-18 year old male, who has had Slow Cognitive Tempo symptoms since a very young age. (3-4).
-Shy, introvert, daydreamy, avoid confrontations, don't like to answer the phone, loss for words, hard to concentrate "on what to say" when in a conversation, usually agree with everyone on everything.
-Play video games or stay on my computer to (3 minute delay thought here) to get stimulation
- I have a hard time thinking of synonyms for words.
- almost always tired (even when on energy drinks)
- lacking motivation, or find purposelessness in almost everything.
- regularly try ...events to ... ... create a sense of ... excitement.
- Very hard time waking up in the morning
- specific mathematical problem solving skills are poor at best
- I'm a good reader, but often jumble words.
- very self conscious (even though I shouldn't be)
- nothing seems to rattle me (dangerous or risk taking situations
- I talk very low key and motonous, almost tone deaf
- I focus on certain thoughts FAR too long (they may even be meaningless), and I know that I should be thinking of other things more important in my life.
- ...damnit I had a good one here but I just forgot.
- not mechanically inclined at all. If I were to build a model car from instructions, I would probably build it the wrong way twice before building it a different wrong way.
- I learn best by example.
- I'm a deep thinker, so psychological concepts come easy to me.
- (remembered the good one ^) I'm clumsy. I'll repeatedly mess up on simple tasks i've done before.
- I tend to "overthink" everything, which is why i'm slightly slower. (Especially when learning new concepts!)
- I'm extremely physically fit. Part of this is due to pain management skills due to my calm and cool attitude. or persona. (theres that synonym problem again). I can dive in a pool of freezing water, or hold my breath for long periods of time without stressing about it because I'm not easily shaken.
- I show little emotion. Not by choice, but just because it's how I really feel. Some people get ****ed off if they forget something. I just say "oh well, no big deal." I also haven't honestly cried about something for years.
- I wouldn't consider myself depressed, but I wouldn't say im happy either.
- I am a gifted speller. I won a spelling bee in 8th grade without studying

There's probably more stuff I could add but I'm tired right now. Normally I would go back and read through what I just wrote to improve my sentence structure but it's late and I'm even more tired than normal....

Just some things real quick that might help other people with SCT, that helped me.

-Hang out with friends that extroverts. They help bring about situations that are easy to add an opinion, and make you feel more comfortable in general about things.
- To improve learning, clear your mind of all your other thoughts. If someone is telling you how to do something, visually picture what they are telling you in your head.
- Try things that you might think are dangerous, (like a backflip on a trampoline). You might surprise yourself at how calmly you are able to do this.

well that's all I have to say. I hope that in my cluttered sentences someone has attained information that they can relate to.
anyone can email me if they have any questions.

Thats me 100%.
Though I must say getting the right stimuli, such as being around the right people, does wonders for my wellbeing

Jakesnake: I found that quitting sugary soft drinks, and I suspect that your energy drinks qualify, made me considerably less sleepy. Switching to diet soda caused different problems. Tea seems to undo the damage sodas caused. Getting artificials out of my diet helped too.

Go to Convergence Insufficiency (http://www.convergenceinsufficiency.org/) and use it to refer you to an optometrist who can properly check your eyes since you "often jumble words". In your case it's probably not CI but a good doc will check for other eye problems too. Most docs only check whether you have 20/20 vision and ignore eye muscle problems (CI, tracking, etc). Heavy video gaming can really screw up your eyes if there's an eye problem too. It's well worth ruling out any eye problems while you're still young and no serious damage has been done.

It sounds like you might have high-functioning Asperger's Syndrome and that you're adapting better than I did. Most adapt on their own by the time they're around 30, learning the socialization skills that "normal" people know by instinct. It's not a big deal, just something to be aware of. You're probably excessively honest too, right? Read The Geek Syndrome (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html).

Just joined to post in here - SCT describes me exactly. I read the Wikipedia entry and then came here - why isn't there more information on this subject?? This is ridiculous...I finally found something that completely embodies my symptoms and there's no definitive answer for treatment :confused:

Warning: The rest of this post is huge, sorry, I just couldn't stop typing :p

I saw countless doctors and therapists without really any improvements or positive results. As I've skimmed through this thread, I see that others have bumped around in the dark and found things that worked here and there the same as I have. It's quite frustrating and slow to do without any kind of pre-defined help, so I was very excited to find this thread!

As far as treatment goes, I am very much as anti-drug as possible. I tried Prozac a few years ago and had really negative results and swore off drugs unless absolutely, totally, completely necessary. The best results I've had are from the following:

1. Early bedtime (around 9:00pm)
2. Small, healthy meals (6 meals every few hours)
3. 15 minutes of exercise a day (cardio)

Once I cleaned up my health picture, things really improved. The bedtime is a biggie - the magic hours seem to be 9-12pm, if I hit those, I really do a lot better the next day. The meals help keep my energy up, but the sleep is what keeps my motivation up. Then some exercise to round things out. So the health-control aspect has been one of the biggest means of self-improvement I've come across.

I discovered I had a number of allergies, including a Type II Dairy Allergy and an allergy to High Fructose Corn Syrup. I have some mild intolerances to other foods (processed food, vegetable oil, fried foods, chocolate, sugar). Physically I felt a TON better after fixing those. For the depression, sleep is what has helped the most.

Once I got feeling better physically, I was better able to deal with the depression aspect. I discovered that aside from the physical effects, depression is...for lack of a better phrase, easy to treat. I found a book series by David Burns about 'feeling good' (he wrote "The Feeling Good Handbook", among others). If you're struggling with depression, the two things I'd recommend right off the bat are clean up your health picture and pick up this workbook - "Ten Days to Self Esteem":

http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Days-Self-Esteem-David-Burns/dp/0688094554/

For health, the order of importance for me is sleep, diet, then exercise. Early bedtime is key. My guess is that most of us suffering from SCT struggle with staying up late, at least if you all are anything like I am. Sleep helped the most, followed by food. I basically learned how to cook meals at home instead of going out to eat, and learned how to eat healthy - minimal preservatives and chemicals, cut out soda and candy, etc. Again, those things helped a TON - once I felt physically better, the 10 Days to Self Esteem workbook really helped a lot.

Eye therapy has been a big recent breakthrough for me. I didn't really have trouble reading and definitely didn't have dyslexia, but words always kind of floated around, had trouble with textbooks, and so on, all the stuff that's already been described in relation to reading. I got hooked up with an eye therapist and started doing that a year or so ago. I had to quit temporarily due to school expenses ($125 per session out of pocket = $500 a month!!!), but I'm looking forward to getting back into it this summer.

I really had no idea how my vision was affecting so many things...I had a lazy eye when I was a kid, that was fixed with a patch, and I wear glasses now, but once I went through the initial tests I was blown away at how whacked-out my eyesight was. It was unreal actually physically SEEING how my eyes worked, like with the red/blue transparency tests. So I'll definitely be looking into that Convergence Insufficiency stuff.

Another guy's system has helped me a lot, David Allen, author of "Getting Things Done". I have trouble finishing what I start and keeping my focus on the tasks at hand - his system is NOT easy, but for people with this so-called SCT it can REALLY REALLY REALLY help if you struggle with being disorganzed and have a hard time just getting done what you need to. Here's a link to his book:

http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Things-Done-Stress-Free-Productivity/dp/0142000280/

My four biggest problems right now are audible focus, learning, short-term memory, and sleep. I have an incredibly difficult time keeping up with the lectures in college. I get behind in minutes when a professor is speaking. I just can't keep up no matter how hard I try. My IQ is very high (not saying that to brag, but to illustrate as others have - bright does not equal successful results), but try getting me to focus in school. Yeah, right.

Learning is also difficult, and is fuzzy as other have described - I have trouble with math, but I have no trouble with computers. English is not a problem, but science is a struggle. I have trouble putting things together in my head, math again being the prime example. I've tried describing it to teachers, family, therapists, etc., and they mostly just think it's stupid, but I'm so glad that I'm not alone in this...it's not that I can't grasp math, it's just that I have some kind of problem in whatever this is...it's fuzzy, I don't know lol.

I also have a hard time following arguments, whether they're math arguments or arguments with people, whatever. I can't follow anything in my head. I can't do simple math in my head. I HAVE to put it down on paper. If I get into an argument with someone, a minute or two into it and I'm totally lost in the maze in my head and have forgotten about exactly what points were made and what we're arguing about. On paper I can do it no problem - I can handle forum threads with ease. In person, no dice. Math, talking, everything. Big struggle there too.

My sleeping problem is that I'm tired all the time. My dad found out recently that he has sleep apnea, so I have "get tested for sleep apnea" on my to-do list, but the problem is I do GREAT if I go to bed really early. I'm talking between 8:30-9:00pm. I call it GBS - Geriatric Bedtime Syndrome :D (funny because I'm only 25, but have to go to bed in order not to be useless the next day). So I don't *think* it's sleep apnea, it's more like being allergic to staying up late - naps don't help, I have to go to bed really early for a few days to catch up on my deficiet, and then keep going to bed early to feel solid throughout a day. It makes no sense and I've never heard of anyone else EVER having this kind of weird sleeping problem. I don't know if it's related to SCT or not.

Bottom line, if I hit my sleep window at around 8:30-8:45pm and then let myself wake up naturally, I start waking up naturally (no alarm) around 4-5am and feel fabulous ALL DAY LONG. It's really, really difficult because of nighttime distractions (thanks to Night Guy, as Seinfeld described haha), but I do *loads* better, it's really a night and day difference for me in terms of mental motivation. Otherwise I just drag, it becomes a depression day and I couldn't care less emotionally about anything.

Last but not least, short-term memory. This is pretty much what I was talking about with following arguments - I just kind of blank out. I've found I do much better when I'm going to bed early, consistently, but it still doesn't completely solve the problem. But it does help a LOT, obviously that is partly a symptom of being tired.

So going back to the main thing, SCT, that Wikipedia entry just made me so happy - finally something that really described ME! Brain fog? Check. Depression? Check. Physically passive due to lack of motivation? Check. I've long thought I've had ADD due to having such a hard time focusing on things, finishing projects, following audible lectures, and so on, but the rest of the ADD/ADHD symptoms just didn't fit the bill and I personally didn't feel that drugs were the right answer for me.

The last 5 years has been a real growth period for me. I've really focused in on it, almost making it my hobby to better myself from whatever this crap is that plagues me, and I've found a number of things that help a bunch, as I talked about above. I'm still not 100% where I'd like to be (i.e. "normal"), but I'm lightyears ahead of functioning where I was before. I've talked with a few other people who have symptoms similar to mine and have outlined a basic course for self-help.

Plan for Self-Treating SCT: (basic plan, non-doctor-approved)

1. Go to bed early. SLEEP, SLEEP, EARLY SLEEP, LOTS OF SLEEP, SLEEP SLEEP SLEEP SLEEP. I can't over-emphasize this enough. This is the #1 cure of depression I've ever found, anywhere, period, end of story. And if you're like most people with depression, your immediate reaction will be "no, that doesn't matter", "that's not worth doing", "I don't want to do that", "I can't do that", "I don't care". If you care at all or are serious about fixing your current state, then you NEED to do this. Don't brush this off!!

At least do try it for 2 straight weeks, no cheating - lights out at 9:00pm. It literally took me 4-5 hours a night to fall asleep when I started. It was horribly boring. Get an audio book if you need help, but as the pyschologists say, only use your bed for sleeping and love-making, not for reading, not for TV watching, not for goofing off on your laptop or cell phone. It took me probably 2 months to get to where I could fall asleep within 15-20 minutes, but it was worth it. The difference you will feel is absolutely astounding. I've helped a small number of people with depression with my shared experiences and this is always the #1 best thing to do out of everything.

What I have to do is, turn off my computer and television one full hour before bed, so that means 8:00 I turn off the glowing light sources (they stimulate your brain, or so the docs say). I take this time to get my backpack ready, find clothes for the next day, write a list of what I need to get done tomorrow, etc., and usually read (but not online!).

2. Food is the second thing to focus on. Sleep provides mental energy, motivation if you will, and to an extent physical energy, but you also need fuel for your physical energy. In my opinion, the right way to eat is 5-6 small meals a day. Or 7-8 small meals if you have a super high metabolism. Food is SUCH a big deal. I was a junk food junkie, at at McDonalds all the time, lived off Snickers, etc. I was in total denial of how it affected me.

Do yourself a favor - drop soda, drop candy, drop junk food, and learn how to eat well. Minimize preservatives and chemicals. What really helped me was reading about how food works at BodyBuilding.com, those guys are super into health and eat very strict diets. I'm not a bodybuilder and don't lift weights, but their style of diet plans has made a night and day difference for me physically. When combined with sleep, I constantly feel bouyed up and able to do what I need to do thanks to the energy it provides both mentally and physically.

Watch out for low-fat and diet foods, like diet soda or low-fat mayo, a lot of times they contain some nasty chemicals and you'd be way better off just having the real thing, lol. I had a really hard time getting used to drinking mostly water, but it is doable and once you get over the initial "this is haaaaaard!" hump, it's really easy. Right now I eat small meals every 2-3 hours, like a 1/2 a turkey sandwich on whole wheat bread and some baked chips. It took about a week (I call it the "rite of passage" because it was so difficult to do) to get the sugar and crap out of my body, and after that I started feeling TONS TONS TONS better. That first week I had ridiculous cravings and just felt disgustingly sick because I wasn't feeling my sugar and junk food addiction. After that, I felt so much better I didn't even care! Plus it was easy to curb junk food cravings when you're eating all day long ;) 6 meals sounds like a lot, but it only takes a couple minutes to eat half a sandwich or a small tuna wrap or something, so it's no big deal.

I also don't (and didn't before) touch alcohol, drugs, and caffiene. That includes coffee and tea. If you're on those, get the heck off ASAP!

3. Exercise is very important. You don't need much - 15 minutes of cardio is plenty. Get an exercise bike, a jump rope, or if you can talk yourself into it, go for a brisk walk outside. Go outside for 10 minutes in the sun everyday to get your Vitamin D. You don't need to be an athlete, a runner, a fitness enthusiast, or a bodybuilder - put on a TV show and walk fast on a treadmill, whatever works for you. I can tell you having a workout buddy increases your likelihood of doing this by about a thousand percent ;)

4. Read and write inside the "10 Days to Self Esteem" workbook by David Burns. If you suffer from and struggle with depression, I've never found a better resource for understanding why and how it works. Once I got my physical stuff under control (early bedtime + awesome diet), I found I was still struggling with my thoughts - this really helped me figure things out. It basically says depression is all in your head, and here's how to fix it. I think depression is often enhanced by underlying physical conditions, so once I got the health part taken care of, I could clearly seeing, with the aid of this book, where I was "off" and how to fix it. Yay (I should probably note I have no affiliation with any of the books I'm talking about). Also check out his other books, they make for good reading if you want to understand depression better, and why it happens in your thought processes and how to fix it.

As a side note here: for the longest time, I searched for a "magic answer" to all my problems. There had to be something fundamentally wrong with me, a tumor, or a disease, or something. The reality and truth of the matter was that it was a combination of things, many of which are solvable through hard work. It's hard to do hard work. But it's doable! For example, going to bed early may not sound like hard work (for those of you who do, which I suspect is very few here with SCT, my hat is off to you), but once you try it you will find out how big of a struggle it is and how difficult it can be to do consistently.

What I'm getting at here is that the only person who really, truly cares about your physical health and well-being is you. That means you can keep looking for a magic bullet to come and fix all your problems for you, which gives you an excuse to do nothing and not really try to go to bed early or eat right or use the workbook I mentioned, or you can do something about it. I did nothing for a long, long time. Oh sure, I went to doctors, I went to therapists, I tried medicine, all those kinds of things. But what I'm sharing here is what has worked wonders for me and for others with problems similar to mine.

Don't underestimate (1) your physical health in relation to SCT, and (2) your ability to use available resources to make progress in dealing with it. When I started seriously, SERIOUSLY taking care of my health, my SCT situation improved a TON. I didn't do this until April 2008 - I kept telling myself there was some magic bullet, something magically wrong with me that could be fixed while I lived the same lifestyle. I had good excuses - terrible focus problems, depression, trouble thinking especially in school - but at the end of the day they were just excuses. So that's the health side, then the resources like the self esteem book and getting things done book have really helped. It requires habit changes, which are never easy and take weeks of focused effort to adopt, but it's doable!

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox and back to my "progressive plan" here ;)

5. The "Getting Things Done" book by David Allen. I love starting projects. Do I ever finish them? Like .001% of the time. Typical ADD behavior, right? I was super disorganized, always late replying to things, doing things I had to do, not being overwhelmed, not falling into action-item paralysis and surfing the net all day in my pajamas. This book really, really helped me learn how to get things done. Instead of feeling overwhelmed all the time, and mostly ending up doing nothing to make progress on things (other than super-focusing on things that didn't really matter, haha), this helps you learn how to deal with action items and stay organized. Again it's NOT an easy system to fully adopt, but BOY will you be more effective at taking care of your life's "stuff" after doing it!

6. If applicable, vision therapy. I thought this had nothing to do with the SCT type of symptoms, but it's really made a difference, surprisingly.

7. Learning how to study. I've been learning how to, well, learn. Having a system for studing and learning has started to help me improve my school life and professional life. This vision thing tied into this for me, as well as sleep and diet. Feeling good really helps you study!

**************

So while I'm not yet in the "perfect" physical/mental state I dream of being in, I've made enormous strides towards living a MUCH happier life with the above steps. It's taken years and years to figure out what works, and what doesn't. The results of SCT are so strange, like the Wikipedia entry says - it manifests itself academically, along with anxiety, depression, and social withdrawl, and all the other day in the article and in this thread.

The funny thing is, most of use seem to be great forum nerds, but I'd bet if you dropped all of us with SCT in a math class, the teacher would have a heart attack because we'd all be spacing out lol.

Anyway, glad to find out I'm not alone with this and that I'm not crazy :D Looking forward to hearing more thoughts on treatment from everybody!

Edit: Also wanted to say, I'm not discounting perscription drugs. For some people, they are definitely the right solution. I just personally believe in avoiding them unless absolutely necessary. I've found (1) in many cases, you develop a tolerance to them and the effects wear off, and (2) there are ALWAYS side effects. In the past 5 years or so, I've discovered how instrumental managing your physical health is in relation to dealing with SCT, so that's what I've chosen to focus a lot of my attention on.

Feeling okay is not acceptable

Hah, wow. I like that! I'm going to use this as my forum signature! :D

i also have severe social phobia, which has been very debilitating in my life but lately i've been taking gradual steps in treating it through exposure and i've been fairly successfull though i still struggle and it's still very difficult. i'm very curious to see if that improves through the use of adderall as a lot of my difficulties socializing, my lack of social skills and lack of confidence in speaking partly have to do with my constant awareness of language problems and my slow responsiveness/mental processing. should be intersting.



i admit i wish i could read through all of this thread without skipping past long posts, hahaha.[/quote]


I found that Prozac really helped with my social inhibition/self consciousness. I originally went on it for depression, then found out it also helped my PMS. I later cut back on the dosage to just 2 or 3 pills a week. You can do this with Prozac due to it's long half life.

I later went back to taking it every day when I was going through my divorce. Now, I'm once again only taking it 2 or 3 days a week to prevent depression. The social phobia seems to have been permanently reduced because even on the really low dosing schedule it hasn't returned.

I came to realize that there was absolutely no reason for feeling social anxiety and I sort of reprogrammed my brain.

I found that Prozac really helped with my social inhibition/self consciousness. I originally went on it for depression, then found out it also helped my PMS. I later cut back on the dosage to just 2 or 3 pills a week. You can do this with Prozac due to it's long half life.

I later went back to taking it every day when I was going through my divorce. Now, I'm once again only taking it 2 or 3 days a week to prevent depression. The social phobia seems to have been permanently reduced because even on the really low dosing schedule it hasn't returned.

I came to realize that there was absolutely no reason for feeling social anxiety and I sort of reprogrammed my brain.

That last bit was a key for me. But before I explain that, I want to say I had tried Prozac, which helped with some things, but I could NOT sleep on it - I was awake 24/7 for a week straight basically, I called it "ProCrack" haha. Swore it off completely after that. Amazing how different reactions can be eh :D

Anyway, in my particular situation, I struggled with social anxiety since I was in grade school. In middle school I was having up to 6 panic attacks a day, which made my life utter hell to live. Nothing I've ever experienced has been as horrible as a panic attack. Fortunately, these lessened when I was in high school and eventually faded away, but the anxiety was still there. A couple years ago, I discovered I had a Type II Milk Allergy...after going completely off all milk ingredients (casein, whey, and lactose) for a full week, not only did I feel incredibly better (no more migraines or asthma, among other things), but to my surprise the bulk of my anxiety was gone.

For some background, I had a number of kidney surgeries as a child and suspect that that is what triggered a chemical imbalance and resulted in my dairy allergy, because it wasn't until after my last surgery that things went wrong. I dropped out of my gifted classes in 5th grade and couldn't even scrounge along in the easiest classes school had to offer. I had a terrible time with anxiety and panic attacks. I couldn't focus, couldn't follow along in class lectures, and so on. So from what I can tell, this was a big trigger for the rest of the SCT symptoms.

For me, the key driver for the anxiety was a food allergy. I tried telling myself it was in my head, I tried dealing with it, re-thinking it, sucking it up, etc. The simple fact of the matter was that it was a chemical problem within my body - once I got the food situation dialed in, my life became a lot better. It was amazing to feel calm the majority of the time, and not have my heartrate accelerate for no apparently reason!

Anyway, once I got discovered how closely my health and my anxiety was tied together, I got to work on dealing with the depression side of things, which was only partially affected by the food allergy. I was tired of therapists, they never helped with anything - it was like going to doctors, they just didn't have the right answers for me. So I decided to take it into my own hands and start doing a lot of research and reading.

The guy who nailed the problem for me was David Burns, the author of the Feeling Good series. Basically, the guiding principle is that you feel how you think. So you reprogram the way you think, as you mentioned. It helped TREMENDOUSLY. Burns says that the "price" of happiness lies in your willingness to want to help yourself, and to take action to adopt the principles he teaches. I found that I had been using my SCT as a crutch or an excuse to not try the harder things, but instead just go the doctor/therapist/medicine/don't care route. I wanted a magic bullet solution instead of having to try "stupid" stuff like changing my thinking patterns, eating better, or going to bed earlier. Boy was I wrong, haha.

I want to re-iterate my SCT system: I had a severe food allergy plus an apparently chemical imbalance causing a lot of symptoms, plus cognitive distortions as talked about in the "Ten Days to Self-Esteem Book" by David Burns. So yes, part of it was "in my head", but the driving force behind that was an underlying health problem. This was a BIG deal in getting me to make progress in how I felt day to day.

One other thing I've found to help is a strict routine. I hate routines. Well, I hate the idea of a routine. I don't like feeling trapped in a to-do list of items laid out for a day, but once you get going on it, you discover it's just a fear of the idea, rather than the actual thing itself. I can elaborate more on my routine later, if anyone is interested. I really like David Allen's approach of "Getting Things Done", because rather than feeling locked into a hard, item-by-item approach to the day, I pick and choose what I do, and only am "locked" into the appointments of the day, such as a dentist appointment at 10:00am. That's really helped me a lot, the combination of a routine and learning how to be organized and get things done.

So yeah, going back to the beginning, "reprogramming" my brain was a big help to me. Thanks to David Burns, I gained a much clearer understanding of how my thoughts affected how I feel. And again I want to say that the underlying driver has been health problems, in my case a severe dairy allergy, so it wasn't "just" in my head - much of the anxiety and depression was simply from living in a whacked-out physical state of health.

So it was a combination of health problems and thought problems that did a number on me. Again I'm not completely cured of SCT or anything, but I have a lot more control over how I feel and how I deal with things now than I did before. I still have a lot of trouble in school and I fall off the wagon all the time in terms of staying on top of things, but at least I know how to get back on now :D

After reading through this thread, it seems that a lot of us with SCT have similar problems:

1. Health Management Problems: Stay up late, don't eat very healthy (or not super healthy, at least), zero or little exercise (and these things as driven by lack of motivation caused by depression)
2. Food Allergies: Gluten, dairy, etc. (whether or not they have been identified - I didn't get diagnosed until I was 24 years old)
3. Vision Problems: Convergence insuffiency or other eye therapy needed
4. Trouble with Application-Specific Systems: Studying, routine, finishing projects, staying on task, etc.
5. Cognitive Troubles: Short-term memory problems, issues with following arguments (not on paper/computer though), problems with intensely logical topics like math
6. Depression: Cognitive distortions (mental thinking patterns), physical health as a driver of depression, not suicidal but simply no interest in life at times
7. Classic Anxieties: Social anxiety, panic attacks, etc.
8. Auditory Problems: Trouble following lectures etc.

It's a terrible pit to be in - brain fog, severe anxiety, depression and lack of motivation, focus problems. I think that we have a very specific subset of symptoms that is hard to nail down, but that it really does exist. I vote we figure out a plan for dealing with this better, because no one in the medical community seems to care about this very much judging by the number of SCT entries in google.

Any takers? :D

Can someone explain to me what is meant by reading deficits? I can read outloud very fast and clear, but understanding what I'm reading at the same time is an entirely different thing. I can read extremely fast, but I usually drift off, not knowing what the text was about.

Yup I have this same exact problem. Physically I can read it out loud no problem, mentally it just goes in one ear and out the other (or in the eyes and out the mouth in this case? :p)

Like Luthien's description, I have been "tested out" as having "a high IQ" (for whatever that is worth), supposedly over 140. HOWEVER, once I got past High School freshman algebra, learning math beyond that was like pulling teeth.

(I tortured and browbeat myself all the way thru Calculus III in college...failing Calc I and Calc II once each before passing....just to "prove to myself I could do it." Of course, within one week after each course was over, I probably forgot 95% of everything).

I'm super good at recalling things that "interest me," or that I "care about," or that "resonate with me"......

.......of course, how to define each of those categories is a whole 'nother story.

I often say, "my brain has a mind of its own," in the sense that I usually feel like there is something like an "inner gyroscope" in my head that has its OWN agenda about what it does and does NOT care about....and that my "conscious mind" can run itself ragged trying to "force" myself to get interested in this or that, or study this or that...but it is like "pounding sand down a rathole."

Yeah...things I'm highly interested in, I can recall. As far as your brain has a mind of it's own, it's like having to babysit your brain sometimes, lol. Or like having a pet dog - you have to consistently point it in the right direction or it just goes off on it's own to play haha. A bit hard to describe, but yeah, I hear you here!

And yes, as has been pointed out, there is no shortage of research on google about SCT. However, this research is dedicated to differentiation only. Not to treatment.

"ADHD inattentive subtype shows different neuroactivity than combined or hyperactive subtype" or something of the sort.

Yeah.... no sh*t..... how do you fix it?

^ I'm with this guy :D

Maybe I should switch my major from Computer Technology to Psychiatry and start a research program on SCT :p

I don't even think it's that. It's actually the opposite, at least with me. It's hyperfocus on irrelevant crap. I talked about this with my psychiatrist. A "normal" brain (if there is such a thing) is able to multitask by keeping 90% focused on the current task at hand, while every once in a while the mind trails off to other tasks like, "oh, yeah, I gotta go get milk on the way home" or "I have a meeting at this time." They're still able to revert attention back to the current task in a snap.

ADHD people are unable to do that. It's either 100% or nothing.

Screw that attention "deficit" or "variability" junk. It just appears that way to an observer when, in fact, it's the opposite.

Hear, hear! :D

that's a heck of a post schroeder.

it was so good that I read through pretty much the whole thing

stick around these forums and interject what you've learned into threads where it would fit.

most of us aren't able to read your whole post and digest it all at once, so give it to use again little by little

how long have you been feeling good? do you think your routine will work long term?

for those with food alergies - what's it like?

I mean if I have a food allergy and don't know it, what's it doing to me?

that's a heck of a post schroeder.

it was so good that I read through pretty much the whole thing

stick around these forums and interject what you've learned into threads where it would fit.

most of us aren't able to read your whole post and digest it all at once, so give it to use again little by little

how long have you been feeling good? do you think your routine will work long term?

Yah sorry, it's that dang hyperfocus - good for writing, not so good for reading :D

I changed my health picture in April 2008, when I decided to seriously take charge of what I could control in my health - namely, sleep, diet, and exercise. I wholeheartedly resisted even believing that these things had any effect whatsoever on my SCT, but BOY was I wrong!

Again I am not 100% cured, but I can live much more productively and happier now. Really, that part is completely in *my* hands, so if I drop the ball, I suffer the consequences. Going to bed super-early has been the #1 biggest benefit to me, along with learning about fixing cognitive disortions thanks to David Burn's great books (food is very, very important as well). I think that with SCT, you basically have to supplement your life with a hardcore program for your health like this and really take it seriously, at least that's what I've found so far with my own case.

SCT is kind of a fuzzy thing to deal with, but I've broken it down into 3 parts:

1. Underlying health problem(s)
2. Cognitive distortions
3. General ADD-SCT

This seems to be the mix that got me: food allergies and general poor health (including vision), cognitive distortions (in relation to depression and self-esteem), and just the general ADD-SCT sypmtoms mentioned in this thread and on Wikipedia - auditory learning problems, hyperfocus on stupid things, etc. etc. etc. Instead of the magic bullet I wanted, it's been more of a piecemeal thing - identifying one issue at a time and taking steps to fix it. I avoid drugs at all costs and haven't used anything since Prozac maybe 5 years ago.

I'm so happy to have found this thread. FINALLY something that sounds EXACTLY like me! :)

for those with food alergies - what's it like?

I mean if I have a food allergy and don't know it, what's it doing to me?

First, some background: when I was a kid, I had several kidney surgeries. After my last one around 7 or 8 years old, I started experiencing anxiety, panic attacks, and poor health. Ever since then, I've had a real struggle with life. Before that, I cruised through the gifted program in school, things were no sweat for me, had a high IQ, was told I was very bright, blah blah blah usual SCT story. Had no hyperactivity, just focus problems as described by others in this thread.

I saw a lot of shrinks, MDs, allergy specialists, and so on. Nothing helped at all. It was VERY frustrating. A year or two ago, I went into the doctor for a bad cough and my regular doctor wasn't there. The guy who was looked down my throat and immediately said get off milk, you're allergic to it. Long story short, I cut out all dairy-related products (casein/whey/lactose) and have been feeling MUCH better ever since, at least physically. Random chance of an encounter that totally changed my life, haha.

I don't know how much of my particular situation would apply to you, but my overall point is that I had an underlying health condition which was significantly contributing to my SCT. I still struggle with the usual symptoms of auditory learning problems, hyperfocus, mental drift, etc., but I'm better able to deal with it now. So without further ado, my dairy symptoms:

1. Headaches, Migraines
2. Bowl movement problems (IBS, soft stools, diarrhea, cramps, gas)
3. Asthma, Breathing Problems
4. Anxiety, Panic Attacks, Nervousness; cold, twisting feeling in stomach
5. Constantly nauseous
6. Extreme fatigue, Dark Circles under Eyes

There's more but that hits most of them. The point here being that there was an underlying physical problem. My friend struggled with depression for the last few years and recently discovered he has MS, once he started treatment he started doing LOADS better. So while you may not have MS or a dairy allergy or even a food allergy, you may have some kind of underlying physical condition that is contributing towards the SCT.

My SCT problems are NOT gone now that I've idenitified my food allergies and have cleaned up my diet. My SCT problems ARE easier to manage now. So, I don't know if an underlying health condition affects everyone with SCT or not, but usually if there's some health problem that you're unaware of, that really pushes depression forward because your body is out of whack. And from reading the thread it seems like some other people have experienced this as well! So FWIW, identifying my health problems and taking control of my health (via sleep, food, and exercise) led to less-aggravated SCT syptoms. It was difficult to do (otherwise we wouldn't have SCT, eh!) but it really really really helped a lot.

Sorry to make a long post again :p

For anyone interested, I'm compiling my notes on a PBworks Wiki here:

http://addsct.pbworks.com/FrontPage

General question to those with self-diagnosed SCT:

Are you tired? A lot?

I just got back from being evaluated for convergence insufficiency and... that's why my reading ability and focus have been so messed up. My eye tracking is poor too. Vision therapy should fix both, though due to my age it'll take longer than if it had been caught early. In retrospect I fixed my ADD quite some time ago by removing synthetics from my diet and exercising more. CI started around 10th grade, which is typical, and ADD started in college when Mom was no longer fixing all of my food and I picked up my 1-2 liter/day soft drink habit.

I just pulled out my records from going to vision therapy a couple years ago (got too expensive while I was in school...$500 a month, oye!). The diagnosis was convergence insufficiency and diplopia (double vision).

I better get on this ASAP...

I'm halfway through 4 months of vision therapy. It's made a big difference. Horizontal tracking is up to 75th percentile and climbing. Complicated subjects are still a tough slog though much better than they were and my doc thinks that will improve. Anything less I can now read at what I feel is a decent pace. I can still mess up my progress by lacking sleep, etc, like Schroeder described above, but so far I'm very pleased with the progress.

I can see further away without glasses now too. That was unexpected.

There's probably more that I'm missing but not having to compensate for broken eyes is a huge help. Everyone should get their eyes checked by someone who knows what he's doing.

I'm halfway through 4 months of vision therapy. It's made a big difference. Horizontal tracking is up to 75th percentile and climbing. Complicated subjects are still a tough slog though much better than they were and my doc thinks that will improve. Anything less I can now read at what I feel is a decent pace. I can still mess up my progress by lacking sleep, etc, like Schroeder described above, but so far I'm very pleased with the progress.

I can see further away without glasses now too. That was unexpected.

There's probably more that I'm missing but not having to compensate for broken eyes is a huge help. Everyone should get their eyes checked by someone who knows what he's doing.

That's awesome! I really hope, like your sig says, that I can just put all the blame on CI instead of ADHD-PI SCT. A non-drug magic bullet, I'll take it! :D

Uh your plan seems like it would work really well,

But I am 21 and In college and theres no way I can get to bed at 9, but I notice a incredible difference between 8 hours of sleep and 6 hours of sleep.

The vision therapy sounds really intresting, never heard of it before this forum.

Uh your plan seems like it would work really well,

But I am 21 and In college and theres no way I can get to bed at 9, but I notice a incredible difference between 8 hours of sleep and 6 hours of sleep.

The vision therapy sounds really intresting, never heard of it before this forum.

I'm 26, in college, married, and work part-time - trust me, it's doable! :D

You just have to decide you really want to do it, that's the key - otherwise you'll be amazed at how many excuses you can come up with! :p Once I decided I cared more about feeling good than I did watching movies or hanging out at night, things started falling into place (this was NOT an easy decision!). Also, 9:00pm is what early means to *me* - you have to find out what early means to YOUR body. I always thought 10:30pm was okay, but I was still tired all day, every day. I started listening to my body and discovered that my sleep window is from around 8-9pm, so I hop in bed at 8:45pm now and feel great the next day. So find out what your body considers an early bedtime, then make it a personal law to hit it every night. Also I find that interesting-to-me audiobooks really help me fall asleep, since I can listen to novels or podcasts every night that keep me in bed and hold my interest until I fall asleep.

The only time I've had a problem with the bedtime is when I've had a late class that interferes, I had one where I didn't get home until about 10pm a semester ago, but I made sure to get right in bed when I got home from class. And that was only 2 nights a week, so not a big deal. I'm very careful about choosing earlier classes now, although it's not always possible, but I try to stack the odds in my favor ;)

I switched my homework from nighttime to mornings. I wake up around 4-5am naturally when I go to bed at 9:00pm and eat clean meals instead of processed/junk/sugar foods, and also get at least 15 minutes of walking or other exercise in. Exercise & food all help you get to bed, because if you're hopped on sugar or stimulants and you haven't gotten off your duff all day, it's reaaaaaly hard to fall asleep lol. I also do homework between classes instead of goofing off. Previously, thanks to the joy that is ADD, I would stay up till midnight or 1 or 2am and scrounge out some homework, but I always had a really hard time with it at night.

Also, once I learned to scope my homework tasks (i.e. get very specific with crispy tasks) and do them when I had energy (mornings & between classes, instead of late in the evening), I started doing a lot better. I'm kind of an all-or-nothing guy and I REALLY have a hard time not getting overwhelmed by the "big picture" of all the homework I gotta do for the day. But that's a whole different post :cool:

Bottom line:

1. You know you have a condition
2. You know that better sleep helps you
3. It's completely up to you to make the decision of how to deal with it

Again this isn't an easy decision - the temptations are limitless at night: Internet, TV, friends, parties, movies, homework, etc. It will overwhelm you on a daily basis - unless you decide how you are going to run your life. Once you've made the decision, then it's easy - anytime something interesting crops up, you'll have your decision to fall back on. There's ALWAYS something fun or pressing going on at night around my place, at least, so without that choice, I'd still be a hopeless basketcase :D

"A significant percentage are not helped by methylphenidate.
Most respond positively to methylphenidate in moderate to high doses. Those who are helped by methylphenidate often do best at low doses. A significant subset are helped by amphetamines rather than methylphenidate. Amphetamines affect both the reuptake and release of catecholamines. A marked deficit in the release of DA and NE might cause sluggishness and underarousal."

I would very much like to have this explained to me.

Basically, Ritalin, which is a methylphenidate, won't work as well as, for instance, Dexedrine or Adderall, which are both amphetamines. I know it's my case: Ritalin did nothing to me while Dexedrine works wonders with just 10mg.

Basically, Ritalin, which is a methylphenidate, won't work as well as, for instance, Dexedrine or Adderall, which are both amphetamines.Won't work as well for people with inattentive ADHD?

Won't work as well for people with inattentive ADHD?


Yup, that's what it means. Well, let me rephrase it: That's what that article really meant :-)

Im Sct and I didnt like adderall at all... Not too sure that concerta is really doing the trick either (could be better), so im gonna try vyvanse i think. But it seems that most of you adhd-I types are taking amphetamines right? so maybe I should give vyvanse a try

Hey I have another question, where can you get tested for Convergence Insufficiency. I have a feeling my eye doctor wont test for it (or know what he is doing). And what are some of the symptoms? I sometimes get blurred vision, eye strains and headaches. Any sort of self tests.

The Convergence Insufficiency (http://www.convergenceinsufficiency.org/) website will direct you to an optometrist in your area. He'll check for other eye problems too. You have more than enough symptoms to justify an appointment.

Im Sct and I didnt like adderall at all... Not too sure that concerta is really doing the trick either (could be better), so im gonna try vyvanse i think. But it seems that most of you adhd-I types are taking amphetamines right? so maybe I should give vyvanse a try

I tried ritalin, dex and adderall - and while ritalin did something (it worked on the motivation), it felt very unnatural. Dex, on the other hand, was amazing - and still is, 18 months later. Adderall felt much more restless than dex.

I don't think you can even get dex near me...I can definitely get vyvanse though

I am new here and I think that I have SCT.

I read about this disorder before(like 1 and a half year before) but the thing that is lagging me from getting treatment is that in my country I just can't see psychiatrist or so whatever.

I decided to medicate my self through smoking but that didn't help on the long run so I quit it since almost 2 months for good.

We don't have stimulant in my country so the first and the second line treatment failed for me and the third line fail too because even that we have stratera it is still too expansive for me (it cost more than 100$ for 20 pills).

Now that I am left with the 4th line treatment(antidepressants) I wanted to ask what is the best medicine for SCT in my case.

I will appreciate any reply, please help me!!!

PS:we only have famous drugs so please give me something that I can find in my homeland.

I am new here and I think that I have SCT.

I read about this disorder before(like 1 and a half year before) but the thing that is lagging me from getting treatment is that in my country I just can't see psychiatrist or so whatever.

I decided to medicate my self through smoking but that didn't help on the long run so I quit it since almost 2 months for good.

We don't have stimulant in my country so the first and the second line treatment failed for me and the third line fail too because even that we have stratera it is still too expansive for me (it cost more than 100$ for 20 pills).

Now that I am left with the 4th line treatment(antidepressants) I wanted to ask what is the best medicine for SCT in my case.

I will appreciate any reply, please help me!!!

PS:we only have famous drugs so please give me something that I can find in my homeland.

Wellbutrin is an anti-depressant that is sometimes used to treat ADD, and so might help with SCT. There is a message board on this website about it. Maybe you can get that in your country.

I hope you can get the help you need!

It is not available in Syria too. We only have some SSRI and Tricyclic anti-depressant.

I had asked some pharmacies before and they where like "what the hack!!! we don't have it".

lol I can fall asleep on vyvanse! The only thing I have found that actually helps is adderall.

I started taking vyvanse, itss not bad if I take a moderate dose...however I still get swings in and out of energy too. Going to ask the doctor for dexidrine and see how that turns out since adderall gave me hardcore anxiety.

Vision therapy update: somehow I didn't get an accurate picture of just how long vision therapy takes. On average it's around 6 months, give or take. which I think is comparable to any other form of physical therapy. It is still working, they keep ratcheting up the degree of difficulty, but the therapy can make my eye muscles sore so I'm wary about starting a new job until I'm finished and have a little time to recover. That's probably due to the memory of screwing up so many jobs and classes in the past though. I still STRONGLY recommend getting your eyes checked for convergence insufficiency and other vision problems, just to know, but plan on a significant time commitment if you qualify.

Vision therapy update: somehow I didn't get an accurate picture of just how long vision therapy takes. On average it's around 6 months, give or take. which I think is comparable to any other form of physical therapy. It is still working, they keep ratcheting up the degree of difficulty, but the therapy can make my eye muscles sore so I'm wary about starting a new job until I'm finished and have a little time to recover. That's probably due to the memory of screwing up so many jobs and classes in the past though. I still STRONGLY recommend getting your eyes checked for convergence insufficiency and other vision problems, just to know, but plan on a significant time commitment if you qualify.

Yeah, they told me to expect long-term results in about 2 years or so, with the initial results making noticeable changes at 6 months, iirc. I want to keep going, but it's $500/month in my area and I'm in college right now, so it has to wait :p

I also went and got checked out for Convergence Insuffiency, My eye doc said that I did have it (not to an intense degree)

All he said for me to do was look at something like a pen with small letters on it and focus on the letters as I move it closer to my face, once it got blurry/double vision then I should pull back. He told me to try to move closer each day and to do it for about 10 times.

but it's $500/month in my areaWhy so much?

I know that this threat is jumbled with different questions but I am just curious to see what medications if any all you ADHD-I SCT are currently taking. This is the only thread I have found regarding SCT

Right now im taking vyvanse but I think I am going to switch to dexedrine

I'm asking this because although the stimulant medications work great for focus, once my body becomes used to them they don't really help with wakefullness. I feel sedated like a zombie, so I can sit down and write a paper but I dont wanna be social etc.

Anyone with SCT had results with wellbutrin or modifinil?

so yeah anyone have any success stories in terms of treatment options (aside from red bull)

^ Hey! Redbull is a valid treatment option... well, maybe not... if only insurance covered it *dreams*

I do excellent on Wellbutrin, within the first two weeks or so. It does go downhill after that, but just the fact that there's a chance of relief at all is important. Whatever is happening chemically for me in those first days works.

I get anti-social and incredibly awkward on Adderall/Ritalin as well. Haven't had Dex or Vyvanse.

Vyvanse works well for me. And it does keep me awake. I take 140 mg. though.

Why so much?

$125 a session out of insurance, once a week. I think most people do once every 2 weeks though.

I know that this threat is jumbled with different questions but I am just curious to see what medications if any all you ADHD-I SCT are currently taking. This is the only thread I have found regarding SCT
Anyone with SCT had results with wellbutrin or modifinil?

There is a group of us SCTers here. I am spending little time with it as study and research of it and related subjects command so much of my attention. http://www.addforums.com/forums/group.php?groupid=60

I have tried Ritalin, Wellbutrin, and recently, Adderall. The Adderall came the closest to actually helping, but the side effects were ugly and my wife didn't like who I was on it.

I'm glad the bickering earlier in the thread seems to have simmered down.



As an aside, I'm not sure I see how that should be characterized as as "bickering".

(But then a possible comorbid of mine falls under the category of NLD -non-verbal learning disorder-, so possibly this was just the cognitive equivalent of a 'blind spot'. [???])

Bradd

Pardon me for not first introducing myself: I'm 49 years old, male, with a recent official diagnosis of AD/HD-I. My symptoms fit the SCT construct to a tee. (FWIW, recent IQ score: 131.)

(I also have a non-verbal learning disorder of some kind which I was informed of from the clinical psychologist my shrink had once sent me to for psychometric testing. However my shrink would later only stifle my attempts to discuss or get any more information regarding that, so I do not know for certain whether this was something officially diagnosed or not.)

Vision therapy update: I've made enough progress that I could stop now if I had to but I'm going to do several more weeks for good measure. I'm still often sluggish but I don't think that my eyes are holding me back. I probably need to tweak my diet and exercise program some more. I'm still off Adderall. Once I'm done with weekly vision therapy sessions I'll be doing exercises three days per week instead of daily and follow up with the doc in three months.

All Inattentives should get screened for Convergence Insufficiency (http://www.convergenceinsufficiency.org) and related eye muscle disorders. It's worth the minor expense to at least rule it out. Vision therapy is not cheap, my total bill by the time I'm done will probably be around $2500 and that's way better than most, but I'm so dependent on reading for my livelihood that it's well worth it.

Vision therapy update: I've made enough progress that I could stop now if I had to but I'm going to do several more weeks for good measure. I'm still often sluggish but I don't think that my eyes are holding me back. I probably need to tweak my diet and exercise program some more. I'm still off Adderall. Once I'm done with weekly vision therapy sessions I'll be doing exercises three days per week instead of daily and follow up with the doc in three months.

All Inattentives should get screened for Convergence Insufficiency (http://www.convergenceinsufficiency.org) and related eye muscle disorders. It's worth the minor expense to at least rule it out. Vision therapy is not cheap, my total bill by the time I'm done will probably be around $2500 and that's way better than most, but I'm so dependent on reading for my livelihood that it's well worth it.

Yeah dude, keep it up!

I don't know what I'm going to do with my life, having these limitations. I feel everyone on here functions much better than I do. It makes me wonder if my SCT is compounded with a low IQ.

One area I excelled at was drawing and other visual arts. Unlike other activities I could do it hours on end. Growing up, I didn't know anyone else that outdid in me in that area. Maybe I should pursue it again, as it might be the only way to escape my mediocrity.

People with a low IQ do not write "It makes me wonder if my SCT is compounded with a low IQ. " :D

I don't know what I'm going to do with my life, having these limitations. I feel everyone on here functions much better than I do. It makes me wonder if my SCT is compounded with a low IQ.

One area I excelled at was drawing and other visual arts. Unlike other activities I could do it hours on end. Growing up, I didn't know anyone else that outdid in me in that area. Maybe I should pursue it again, as it might be the only way to escape my mediocrity.

When I first read about Sluggish Cognitive Tempo type, that's when all doubt about really having ADD disappeared for good. Even though I was diagnosed and put on meds, I was married to someone who I secretly suspected didn't believe in it, because he was very non-supportive. Well now I know what type of person not to be partnered with:rolleyes:

You know how sometimes people who don't know any better say, "yeah, well everybody acts that way -blah, blah,blah. Then you start doubting yourself and your diagnosis even though you know other people don't struggle all the time and to the extent you do.However, I have ALL the traits of SCT. Although I now know I have above average intelligence,I used to feel stupid sometimes because it seemed like everyone but me, understood something right off and I didn't "get it". When your brain is still slowly assimilating the first part after the verbal instructions have gone on to the next step, you lose everything that comes after it.

For example, I used to be a dancer (ballet, modern) and I was very good at it. However, when I had to audition and was given a series of steps to quickly learn and execute - it was humiliating, because I looked like someone who didn't have a clue as to what they were doing!

It's only now, decades later I understand what happened. It was the working memory dysfunction. I cannot quickly learn something while I'm trying to do it. I can learn to do or understand anything as well as anyone else, however, I can't learn it as quickly. My brain just doesn't work in the same way. I can't do numbers in my head and I can't cook and talk to people at the same time. I either don't really hear what they're saying or I find myself talking to them while I've stopped working and I'm standing there talking with a spoon or knife in my hand. When my kids were little and always interrupting as kids will do,I described it to them like this: "When mommy is cooking, her brain is tuned to the cooking channel and when you interrupt me, I have to stop what I'm doing and tune into the kid channel so dinner will take a lot longer".

Normally I have no trouble concentrating on what I'm reading, but if there's loud noise or music, I'll find myself reading the same thing over again or reading it slower.

I found when I took ski lessons, the lessons never sunk in until hours or days later. Often I do better when I stop trying to think about what I'm doing cause my thinking seems to interfere with the doing.

Can anyone relate to what I'm describing?

That sounds a lot like me - maybe I should make an appointment sometime in the next year. >_>

Addelerious, I can fully relate to everything you've just said! I'm a musician, not a dancer, and I've always had the same problem on auditions that required sight-reading material.

I'm good at learning new music, but I need to work out in my mind exactly how it is supposed to sound before I can start playing it. It always felt like there was something missing in my mind and that I was in some way disabled even though I was known to be "gifted" (I'm not trying to brag, and I don't agree with that label.)

I've just thought of something interesting .............

I don't seem to have this working memory problem when the steps are given slowly enough and there's plenty of time to execute it before going on to the next step. It appears to be a function of speed, how fast the information is coming in and how much time between doing and getting new information.

I still have to practice doing it a few times and practicing before I forget what I've learned. The practice afterwards seems to "set" the memory.

Also what helps me: reviewing the action mentally before starting, not during, but beforehand.

For example, I was learning how to paraglide. I quickly realized that I have to review mentally what to do before attempting to inflate the paraglider wing off the ground. Once you've started to lift it, everything seems to move very fast and it's hard for me to remember "right side falling, use opposite break, move laterally to that side,etc." By the time I've thought out what I'm supposed to do, it's crashed to the ground:o

Also, I discovered I learn much better from some teachers and others are useless to me. The senior instructor constantly fired off instructions at lightening speed and my brain just "crashed" from overload. The guy I learned from was slow and patient.

So if possible, choose your teachers carefully.