It is known that sleep disorders can lead to ADHD in some people. With that in mind, and continuing with the no-stone-unturned policy, my doc has recommemded I undergo a sleep study, because I have a long history of bouts with insomnia. Stay tuned... I go do that late next month.

ME :D

Please keep us informed. My son has terrible insomnia problems and has tried different sleep meds with terrible side effects. Right now he is using meditation CD's with some results. Since I have a terrible time trying to find posts on this site, could you possibly send me an email when you get any information?

Thanks!

Does anyone know how sleep disorders can lead to ADHD? I am confused, I thought that the ADHD could lead to sleep difficulty because of the racing thoughts and energy. :confused: I would also interested to learn more. I have difficulty falling asleep and have learned not to expect to fall asleep for at least an hour after I get in bed because my mind is working so fast and I am usually restless. Definitely keep us posted, speedo!

As I understand it, the loss of REM sleep (deep sleep with dreams) causes seretonin levels in the brain to drop. It is not just sleep that matters, it is deep, restful sleep that is most important.


ME :D

I haven't heard of sleep disorders ever leading to ADHD.

I'm definately going to look into it.

For the time being though, I'll remain skeptical.

Having said that, I strongly believe that sleep & thyroid disorders must be accounted for in doing a Family History.

Sleep Disorders like Sleep Apnea can definatley cause cognitive difficulties that mirror classic symptoms of ADHD. but they don't cause ADHD. I have sleep apnea, and my sleep specialist was horrified when I told him that I was being assesed for ADHD becuase so many people who have sleep apnea are misdiagnosed and then end up taking Stimulant meds when other treatments might have been much more effective.

Unfortunatley, I got the short end of the stick, and I actually DO have sleep apnea and ADHD:) There are some tell tale signs though that can indicate, but not confirm for sure that you may have a sleep disorder

Have you had these "ADHD" symptoms for all of your life, or at least since you were a young child? Were you a problem child? If these problems developed recently, then you probably don't have ADHD

Are you tired all the time?

Do you snore?

Do you wake up feeling tired (this can mean many other things too though)

Are you overweight?

etc. etc. the only way to be sure though is to go into a sleep center and have a sleep study done.

I had one and it was a pain in the ***. They wire you up like a christmas tree and then tell you to go to sleep. I fell asleep eventually though and it confirmed that I had sleep apnea.

I now use a "CPAP" machine every night and that helps a lot with day time exhaustion. It's important to look into it though as sleep apnea and other sleep disorders can cause a whole bunch of seemingly unrelated health issues that can be pretty serious like high blood pressure, anxiety, poor memory, mood swings, depression, etc.

Speedo,

Please do let us know how the tests go. For me, getting to sleep is hard sometimes and staying asleep is another hurdle. A pin dropping wakes me up. I sleep TERRIBLE, always have. Once in a blue moon I get to the last level of sleep and actually feel like I slept when I get up in the morning. I go through bouts of insomnia for weeks on end and start to feel like I'm going crazy, although sometimes I get quite creative during these phases. I can't stand sleeping pills either because I feel drugged up the whole next day. I guess I'm in trouble because as you get older you sleep less, although having 2 jobs may be my saving grace after all because sometimes I do crash after doing both. I'd sure like to find out more about lack of sleep causing ADHD too. Dee

I should have said "add-like symptoms".

My pdoc says she has had patients who had sleep disorders who develoiped symptoms exactly like ADHD, and their symptoms improved when their sleep disorder was treated.

I guess it is not common, but I feel that it is worth looking into... especially since I tend to have sleep issues anyway.

the implications are that some cases could be "cured" by treating the sleep disorder.

There were attention problems in me when I was a child, so I don't expect this to turn up much of anything, but I'll give it a go and see what happens.

Me :D


I haven't heard of sleep disorders ever leading to ADHD.

I'm definately going to look into it.

For the time being though, I'll remain skeptical.

Having said that, I strongly believe that sleep & thyroid disorders must be accounted for in doing a Family History.

As I understand it, you don't catch ADHD from other problems. You either have ADHD or you don't, I've never heard that you can develop it from other things. I wouldn't be surprised if I understood wrong though. If ADHD and ADD is our brains actually being physically wired differently as the current thought goes, then how could something rewire our brains?
There are many things that mimic AD/HD. Maybe that's what your doc meant?

Color me late...or too slow of a typer :p
My ADHD definately reared high when I had insomnia. At first my doc approached it from the insomnia side before I was tested for ADHD.
Good luck!

I should have said "add-like symptoms".

My pdoc says she has had patients who had sleep disorders who develoiped symptoms exactly like ADHD, and their symptoms improved when their sleep disorder was treated.

There were attention problems in me when I was a child, so I don't expect this to turn up much of anything, but I'll give it a go and see what happens.



One of the biggest problems with ADHD in adults is disentanglement. Looking at any one signle symptom of ADHD, you can find countless other ways to account for them. You doctor is right, that sleep problems can cause the same type of symptoms. Some of them, but not all.

The question is which came first: ADHD or your sleep problems. You said the one thing that makes me believe that this is ADHD, namely that your attention problems were there in your childhood. ADHD is a life long disorder, but how it manifests itself can change depending on circumstances.

I had constant insomnia before I was treated for ADHD. My mind raced at night and I could not turn it off. I never met a sleep medication my mind could not defeat! It was frustrating.

Shortly after starting medication for ADHD I noticed that I could now fall asleep without tossing and turning for hours. I could also fall asleep without sleep medication.

Establish when you can first remember symtoms of ADHD, then try to pinpoint when your sleep problems began, and if they were consistant or if they came and went. That way you and your doctor can get an idea of what to treat. In my case, treating my ADHD also relieved me of my sleep problems.

cheers,
katatak

I can remember having attentin issues in the 4th grade. I have always had problems getting to sleep at a reasonable hour. I'm a night creature at heart.

ME :D

I've never heard of insomnia leading to ADD/HD either, Speedo. I'm not disregarding your Doc's words as insignificant-I've just never, ever heard of insomnia being one of the 'causes' leading to ADD/HD.

I've heard many ADD/HDers complaining that they, too, are insomniacs.

I'm one of those individuals who is an insomniac. I don't complain about it, because I'm used to my sleep pattern..which includes insomnia some days.

I know insomnia is something that isn't meant to be tolerated, Speedo.
Good luck to you.
I hope the clinic helps you.


Nova

Insomnia doesn't lead to ADD, it causes symptoms that mimic ADD.
I'm a severe ADHDer with insomnia....
I'm SCREWED!
LOL

What is a "CPAP" machine anyway?

There are two (2) types of INSOMNIA.

1. Primary insomnia
2. Maintenance insomnia. (Also called Secondary Insomnia)

People with ALMOST ANY sleep disorder will cause 'Maintenance Insomnia', or Secondary Insomnia.

Maintenance Insomnia is Fragmented Sleep. (eg The Restless Legs' Muscle Spasms will fragment sleep constantly, though they do not realize it; The Suffocating of Sleep Apnea followed by a huge Surge of Adrenalin to re-start the breathing, which makes the person choke/gasp and their heart starts RACING -- which constantly disturbs people's sleep.)

Maintenance Insomnia is waking up when you don't want to, AFTER initially GETTING to Sleep.
----------

PS. Someone mentioned Snoring as a risk factor.

Yup. Almost all people with Sleep Apnea will Snore. (Though the reverse is not always true.)

As my Sleep Doctor told me -- 'Snoring is a PARTIAL TISSUE OBSTRUCTION of your Breathing Tube'.


It is from excess tissue -- and is often caused by being overweight/weight gain, having big tonsils/adenoids, menopause, small jaw, etc.

SUGGESTED BEST READING: DR. M. Kryger's new sleep Book (2005?)

I don't have ADHD like my name suggests. I probably should have named myself with 'ADD' because I'm far from hyperactive. I suffer from sleep apnea (which is weird cuz I don't snore and I'm not overweight yet there it is on the sleep study), and to a lesser extent some psychological AND physiological insomnia, and poor sleep scheduling. When I sleep well, and that is rare, I do feel a lot happier, clearer headed, motivated, etc. I think anyone who looks at someone with a sleeping disorder and one with ADD is gonna have a hard time telling the difference if they just casually observe the surface symptoms. Listening to people, saying things that make sense, paying attention in class, reading, doing homework, trying to get things done... these are all very difficult for me.

I just glanced over the previous posts so I don't know if this has been cleared up already, but having a sleeping problem DOES NOT CAUSE ADD/ADHD. The symptoms just mimic it. Get the sleeping problem under control and you solve everything else. Unfortunately, sleeping disorders aren't the easiest thing to treat if its physiological in origin. No ones figured the brain out yet.

It's too bad so many people get misdiagnosed cuz one of one of the symptoms they are experiencing from bad sleep. I think ADD/ADHD and depression are the leading misdiags.

I had the sleep study last night. It was difficult to sleep being wired up and in a strange bed, but all went well enough. They tell me to expect results in 14 days.

ME :D

my sleep study results are back. They said "You don't sleep very much". They also said I had mild to moderate sleep aphnia, and severe snoring. They want to do a second study. I told them I wanted to talk to my doctor first.

ME :D

my sleep study results are back. They said "You don't sleep very much". Wow! How many hard years of college learnin' it must have taken to make that diagnosis! :p

Good idea to talk to your doc before submitting to more tests - they'll test all the money right out of your wallet if you let them...

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by speedo
my sleep study results are back. They said "You don't sleep very much".
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Wow! How many hard years of college learnin' it must have taken to make that diagnosis! :p

Good idea to talk to your doc before submitting to more tests - they'll test all the money right out of your wallet if you let them...


Heh this got a chuckle outta me..... I do agree with talking to doctors first before you get tested again.

I just spoke with my doctor. She wants to do a sleep study with a CPAP machine to see how I do in it.

ME :D

Good luck speedo! :D

Good luck with the CPAP, if you can get the pressure setting right it could potentially turn your whole life around.

Wow!

Interesting thread!

Best of luck with trying out the cpap machine, Speedo.
Please let us know how it goes!

I'll be going for the final testing in a few weeks. I'll share the results here, when I get them.

Me :D

i used to take adderall 100 mg i would never sleep but adderall has ingredients that is used in the drug speed. people sell adderall like drugs to keep people awake at parties

I had the second sleep test last Saturday. I don't have the results yet... stay tuned...

ME :D

Attention and learning rely on good sleep. Learning needs sleep for consolidation. No sleep means stuff you learn cannot consolidate.

Poor sleep makes Pain tolerance worse too. (This is chemically based.)

One good book to read is new book (2005) by Dr. Kryger.

US title: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071425276/sr=8-5/qid=1143251645/ref=sr_1_5/103-5496630-3271044?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Canadian title: "Can't sleep, can't stay awake."

Okay... here is thre story. After my second sleep study I was issued a CPAP machine. So far it i driving me nuts. I"m trying to adapt to it and am getting better with it.

I had two myoclonic siezures during the second test, and another one last night. No harm done, but my doc says it is my clue that I need to get off of wellbutrin. I have a script for Tenex that I am to start after 3 weeks on the cpap machine. In a few more weeks my doc opes to put me on provigil.... we shall see. Because of my siezure problems , most of the first line ADHD meds are not safe for me. I tried strattera and it dod not work out very well for me. I guess I will keep trying until I get some results.

ME :D

Best of luck, speedo!

That can't be easy trying to get it all figured out. I admire your attitude in dealing with all of this.

myoclonic siezures what is that one iam not for melreer with it what merschina have they put you on???? dorm an like chaos i ages with yoiu atetude is very impotrntrf ;.)))))

Hey, speedo, my husband just had a second sleep study done with the CPAP machine, too. He doesn't have the results back yet, but from the things the technician was saying and explaining the morning after the study, it would surprise both of us if a CPAP machine was *not* issued.

What kinds of problems have you dealt with in getting used to the machine? During the study, my husband's problem was in finding a comfortable position to sleep in that didn't break the seal of the mask on his face. (ie: he couldn't sleep with the pillow in the positition he's used to, because it pushed on the mask.)

I know its only been a couple days since your last post, but I wondered if it was getting easier for you yet.

Keep us posted!

Well if he mader it to a trial with a cpap machine, my guess is that he will probably be issued one. Good luck with it.

I wish I could say that it is getting easier. In some ways it is. I am used to the pressure, and the mask does not bother me as much as it did. I do have problems finding a position to sleep comfortably in. So far, I have yet to be able to go the entire night with the machine. Having the mask on my face simply keeps me awake. It is very hard for me to get used to.

I can say that on the times that I actually slept with it, I slept well. Overall, the machien keeps me awake a lot... it will take me a while to get used to it.

ME :D


Hey, speedo, my husband just had a second sleep study done with the CPAP machine, too. He doesn't have the results back yet, but from the things the technician was saying and explaining the morning after the study, it would surprise both of us if a CPAP machine was *not* issued.

What kinds of problems have you dealt with in getting used to the machine? During the study, my husband's problem was in finding a comfortable position to sleep in that didn't break the seal of the mask on his face. (ie: he couldn't sleep with the pillow in the positition he's used to, because it pushed on the mask.)

I know its only been a couple days since your last post, but I wondered if it was getting easier for you yet.

Keep us posted!

OK, Speedo, my husband is getting the CPAP machine. His doctor told him yesterday.

I hope you're getting accustomed to yours. Any tips you have to share with others?

Last night was the first night I was able to sleep the entire night with the CPAP machine.
I've been using it every night, but would always wake up at some point , completely irritated with the mask and have to take it off to sleep any further.

I'm typically sleeping 1/3 to 1/2 of the night with it. It helps, but I'd like it to be better.

My doctor increased the dosage of Tenex which I am taking, and it helps me sleep.
Hopefully, I can adapt to the machine fully now.

This has not been easy.

ME :D

Here is the latest on my esperience with cpap and sleep disorders...

I had to reduce the pressure on my cpap machine in order to adjust to it.
I'm doing well with it and I feel a lot better. I have alos started taking melatonin as a sleep aid.
I'm working the pressure back up to the recommended titration over time. So far, so good...

The end result is that I am sleeping SO much better, and I feel better. I am still scattered and distracted, but oh well *shrug*.

I'm having dreams when I sleep again. It is something that I have not had in a long time.

I went off of wellbutrin because of problems with seizures. My doc put me on tenex, it really shuts off my hyperactivity, but I am SO scattered that I can barely function.

I can't complain, I feel good... I am doing great with the cpap machine now and I am sleeping better than I have in years.


Me :D

hi speedo, what pressure are you at???

Speedo,

I've been on cpap for 5 years - I love it! I could tell the difference the first night doing the titration at the sleep lab. I've only missed cpap (hurricane power outtage) a couple of nights, they were not pleasant. I associate putting on the mask with sleeping well so just putting it on starts the wind down routine. The doc who diagnosed me has sleep apnea and cannot use cpap due to claustrophobia...

I am both scre*** and lucky. I suppose I would be on disability if I had not been diagnosed and treated for obstructive sleep apnea AND ADHD.

I was diagnosed with ADHD a year ago. Hope you have adapted...you can try auto-Pap (pressure self adjusts to your varied needs) and the Breeze (a confortable type of mask-like device with only two small cushions touching your nostrils).

Best.

I know that the subject has progressed to sleep apnea, but I'd like to interject. I've got a sleep disorder called leg myoclonis. I had a sleep study done and they said that i got 10 minutes of REM sleep. I was totally sleep deprived for years. I know that I didn't get ADHD from my condition, but my point is that sleep deprivation definately exagerates ADHD.:eek:

hi speedo, what pressure are you at???
presently at 10. The original rx is for 12. I think I slept better at 9 when I initially reduced it.

ME :D

Hopefully now you can get some relief. Keep us posted if you can. :)


ME :D


I know that the subject has progressed to sleep apnea, but I'd like to interject. I've got a sleep disorder called leg myoclonis. I had a sleep study done and they said that i got 10 minutes of REM sleep. I was totally sleep deprived for years. I know that I didn't get ADHD from my condition, but my point is that sleep deprivation definately exagerates ADHD.:eek:

Color me late...or too slow of a typer :p
My ADHD definately reared high when I had insomnia. At first my doc approached it from the insomnia side before I was tested for ADHD.
Good luck!

same:)

For me it's the other way around. My ADD is causing my sleep problems both waking up and going to sleep. Taking stimulant has helped the waking up but I think I need to take some before I go to bed so I can get to sleep.

"Neurology Now" had an article on this theory last month. this was a brand new study based on the hypothesis that some cases of depression and ADHD were actually CAUSED BY insomnia as a neurological disorder in and of itself, not vice versa.

this concept is quite new and still being studied. i must say, in many ways it is a plausible theory.

"Neurology Now" had an article on this theory last month. this was a brand new study based on the hypothesis that some cases of depression and ADHD were actually CAUSED BY insomnia as a neurological disorder in and of itself, not vice versa.

this concept is quite new and still being studied. i must say, in many ways it is a plausible theory.

I do beleive there is a basis for sleep deprivation to mimic ADHD. I don't beleive that ADHD is caused by sleep deprivation.

On the other hand, sleep dprivation could cause clinical depression, or is at least plausible.

If you google search REM sleep and ADHD, you might be very supprised at what you find. That is why I am switching doctors to get back on Serzone. This is the reason I refuse to take an SSRI.

Good luck bro. I have been there, burnt out, learned the hard way, and will never take those medicines that are strong REM sleep suppresants.

Does anyone know how sleep disorders can lead to ADHD? I am confused, I thought that the ADHD could lead to sleep difficulty because of the racing thoughts and energy. :confused: I would also interested to learn more. I have difficulty falling asleep and have learned not to expect to fall asleep for at least an hour after I get in bed because my mind is working so fast and I am usually restless. Definitely keep us posted, speedo!


This can sometimes by Type II bipolar. It is seen a lot with ADD/ADHD

I do beleive there is a basis for sleep deprivation to mimic ADHD. I don't beleive that ADHD is caused by sleep deprivation.

On the other hand, sleep dprivation could cause clinical depression, or is at least plausible.

I believe it does mimic it, but it also make ADHD much worse.

Wasn't SERZONE taken off the market?

Many 'mental illnesses' have a sleep disorder component.