Are Black and White Morals An ADD Trait? [Archive] - ADHD Forums - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Support and Information Resources Community

lettie

03-23-06, 06:34 AM

I am exactly the same way.. black white moral immoral, and i've learned some about this in the REBT therapy i talk of..here she goes again. I'm going to be short, because at this point I have only retained enough to be dangerous. Basically, because of environment, parents, society we develop attitudes and moral beliefs. For example, if you kill someone you are a "bad" person. Well, what really is a bad person. Who sets this definition, and how would we say assemble a panel to decide how and when someone qualifies as a bad person. These things can vary from household to household, depending on what you have learned (the attitudes you have developed).. the point is to extend this to emotions.. in reality you can only be angry about something from learned behavior, attitudes or expectations. Ex.. you get angry if husband doesn't come home at night, because you expect certain behavior from him. Another wife may not experience anger in that situation because of diff expectations.

..okay.. more on point to black and white morals, I have a theory which i can't back at all.. but will research. As i learned more about ADHD.. i felt my strict black and white ideas had some to do with the working memory not functioning as well. As I was growing up.. i felt like i almost had to memorize things which were bad, and things which were good, so I wouldn't constantly cross those lines... that doesn't leave a lot of room for grey area or adjustments... just an idea thown out there.

Kokomo

03-23-06, 08:22 AM

Hmmm....I guess I need to consider this one a little more. Although I have a clear right/wrong for myself, I also see tons of shades of gray when it comes to the behavior of others, so it's hard for me to say I am a B/W person. I can tell instantly if I think someone else's behavior would be acceptable if I were the actor, but also rarely will be judgmental toward others. Guess I need to think a little more about this one as I mentioned.

~boots~

03-23-06, 09:08 AM

.......I can read as long as I can wiggle as much as I want!!!

ok, now I am jealous:D You are very very very lucky:p

runinl8

03-23-06, 11:57 AM

I am only strictly b/w when it comes to certain things. There are somethings that I can see the gray in, mostly things that are not real important to me. I think when I am mostly b/w is when it's the most important to me, then there's no changing my mind. It's either right or wrong. :D

DimensionX

03-23-06, 12:25 PM

i am an extremely moral person, and i mean extremely so much so that it can really hinder my progress and severely effects the choices i make, i'll give u an example:

i was working in an it department and this one person had been waiting for a computer for weeks and we had one left so i set it up for her, after i set it up i was about to send it to her when the top boss phoned and said he needed a new computer, of course the head of the department said that i should completely reformat the one i did and set it up for the boss instead, of course me being me protested saying "the person had been waiting for weeks and she has a piece of junk for a computer whereas the boss didn't plus there is going ot the be a new delievery of pc's tomorrow so i'll set one up for him as soon as we get them first thing in the morning" of course the head of the department said something around the lines of "tough"....now i tried to let this go but couldn't, i instead phoned up the top boss and explained to him what was going on and asked if he minded (the top boss is a real nice guy), he said that he didn't so i told the head of the department and carried on with what i was going to do in the first place, course the head of department wasn't happy about it but i didn't care, i tried to explain my reasons for doing so but he said around the lines of "how do u expect to get better pay if u don't do exactly what the top boss tells u to do", in my answer i just said something around the lines of, i've never cared about money i don't let it rule my life like some people and to me the top boss is just another guy like everyone else and i treat everyone equally.

this is just one of many examples, oddly enough they asked me to come back to work anytime (i was only working over the summer holidays), they even made a lil stick note of me on the wall (basically if an it employee has been working for a while and says something often they put it up on the wall) mine says "alrite m8?"....a praise i use way too often kinda outta habbit ;) thinking about it now, i'm suprised they didn't fire me.

to me things are only right or wrong there are no grey areas, to me grey areas are just things that i have yet to work out if they are right or wrong

@ runinl8,

i really like ur avatar, and i mean really like it, it's kinda obvious as to why if u read some of the stuff that i say ;)

@ chameleon,

i'm really beginning to like ur avatar now, the reason i was i bit odd about it was just because it was so unexpected, sry for kinda giving u aload of grief about it ;)

@ lettie,

what u said was interesting:

i felt my strict black and white ideas had some to do with the working memory not functioning as well. As I was growing up.. i felt like i almost had to memorize things which were bad, and things which were good, so I wouldn't constantly cross those lines... that doesn't leave a lot of room for grey area or adjustments... just an idea thown out there. i find this really interesting, what do u mean that u had to memorize things that were bad and good?

me myself i never had to memorise as such....i dunno, i always tried to nice to everyone and then got confused as to why people weren't nice to me....still do in fact although now i try and see it from the other persons point of view instead of mine...if u get that.....cause i'm not sure i do lol :D

but neways i think i understand what ur saying

oh and btw, what does b/w mean?

@ madd,

i like ur sig, made me chuckle :D

Princess-of-Chaos

03-23-06, 12:33 PM

hmmm... actually I have the impression I tend to see more layers than many others. Often people believe something is contradictory and I see it fits, as they simply did not compare equal levels. Or I very often see the weak spots in theories, see many different explanations. Sometimes I even think many others see the world in 2D and miss the third dimension.

Concerning Happiness/Sadness: I never thought about it, but these are my "main emotions".

I'm not very fearful or aggressive, but I can be very very sad and very very happy....
very interested or very bored, too :rolleyes:

madd

03-23-06, 12:39 PM

i..now i tried to let this go but couldn't, i instead phoned up the top boss and explained to him what was going on and asked if he minded (the top boss is a real nice guy), he said that he didn't so i told the head of the department and carried on with what i was going to do in the first place, course the head of department wasn't happy about it but i didn't care, i tried to explain my reasons for doing so but he said around the lines of "how do u expect to get better pay if u don't do exactly what the top boss tells u to do", in my answer i just said something around the lines of, i've never cared about money i don't let it rule my life like some people and to me the top boss is just another guy like everyone else and i treat everyone equally.

I've never been good in the office politics game. So bad to the point that my career has been crippled by things like Dimension mentioned. I just can't get it right. I'm not a my way or the highway person, but I'm close. I guess you'd call it b/w. I know that my way isnt always the right way, but often enough, maybe because of ADD, I stumble upon a happy accident that works quite well.

chameleon

03-23-06, 12:51 PM

to me things are only right or wrong there are no grey areas, to me grey areas are just things that i have yet to work out if they are right or wrong

DX - I am JUST LIKE YOU.
....well, except I wear dresses....and birthed children....and wear lipstick.....
Otherwise - I'M JUST LIKE YOU! :D
---- I'm glad you're taking a liking to my avatar now too :)

piaszw - oh yeah, we kind of forgot that part of the topic I think - the "everything branches from sadness or happiness" part. I truly believe that.

madd - I know what you mean about "I'm not my way or the highway". I have no problem with other's having differing opinions than mine on this like, say, abortion or the war in Iraq. I respect other people's opinions and right to have them, but my ideas of what is right and wrong are set in stone (not that I wouldn't change my mind on them if someone pointed out something to me that I'd never thought of before.
I don't judge others, but I do have my own distinct blue print for RIGHT and WRONG.

lettie

03-23-06, 01:00 PM

...and, also let me clarify a little. The emotions of happy, sad, mad, scared I believe are there as shown by infants who exhibit these emotion. But, how these emotions are felt, and to the degree of impact rely heavily on learned behavior. For example.. if it were a common occurance and I didn't expect differently..that when I expressed grief over a tradgedy to be belittled and questioned morally then anger would not have been a response. It was only because I expected different results and treatment that I got angry.. (and I don't choose to work to change that)
...as to the morals, it seem as though I expect everyone's "moral code" to be very similar to mine.. I have no idea if that would have anything to do with ADD or not (maybe just control)

to me things are only right or wrong there are no grey areas, to me grey areas are just things that i have yet to work out if they are right or wrong
..there are some things in life I wish I had said....and this is one of them.

And DX..memorize is a really bad way to express what I'm trying to say. Kind of like what someone said earlier..just a feeling of right or wrong, moral or imoral just kind of hits you. So when I say memorize, I can't find any logical thought process as to how I came to these moral conclusions, and they are sort or memorized or ingrained exactly the way in which presented to me... it seems that the grey areas would be deviations or slight changes in what is ingrained in my pea brain.. and I haven't figured out how to really accomplish that. I really hope that makes a little sense... having trouble with expessing my thoughts on this

chameleon

03-23-06, 01:05 PM

Lettie, your happy/sad emotion comments remind me of that classic old story that I can't remember the name of - Paradise Lost maybe? - where the man sails to an island inhabited by natives and they don't know what shame of nakedness is so they aren't guilty of sin...or something like that.
I don't think it was Paradise Lost. Help anyone?

madd

03-23-06, 01:11 PM

Robinson Crusoe? Gulliver's Travels? Island of Dr. Moreau? I'm running out of Island books.:)

lettie

03-23-06, 01:16 PM

runinl8

03-23-06, 01:17 PM

@ runinl8,

i really like ur avatar, and i mean really like it, it's kinda obvious as to why if u read some of the stuff that i say ;)

oh and btw, what does b/w mean?

Thanks I just found it the other day and fell in love. b/w is just shortening black or white.:)

madd

03-23-06, 01:26 PM

whatever the book... a good example. we are not born with shame and guilt. This is something forced on us by mother-in-laws :p ..sorry couldnt resist. This is something we learn.. from parents, society, other contacts during formative years or later.
Lettie, I respect your opinion but my gut feeling ( I'm not educated enough to have a hypothesis:p ) is that shame and guilt are hardwired, basic emotions. They can be manipulated by parents and in-laws but thats a different story)

Scroll down on this sight and it has links that you might find interesting
http://www.personalityresearch.org/basicemotions.html

chameleon

03-23-06, 01:38 PM

Hey runinl8 - your avatar is black and white :p

I agree with Lettie that shame is learned. I've heard of different societies that do things that we would find abhorable - like one I heard about where the fathers take their daughter's virginity. To them it's a caring act, to introduce the daughter to the joys of sex, with a man they know and feel comfortable and safe with.

I'd better say this here just to squash any misinterpretation that might follow -

I DON'T CONDONE THIS! I THINK IT'S HORRIBLE

But, they don't. Because their society taught them it's alright. In our society I'd be hard pressed to think of a more shameful act.

Don't ask me to post a link on the topic, I've never looked for it online, just heard about it. It's just an example. You get the idea.

DimensionX

03-23-06, 01:41 PM

@ chameleon,

ok i can offically say that i like ur avatar now and i can't remember if i said this or not but i like ur sig alot, very good.

thanks lettie, i get what u mean now

...having trouble with expessing my thoughts on this lol no ur not, it's just ur having trouble explaining ur thoughts to someone like me, why do u think my usernamen is DIM ensionx ;)

@ runinl8,

thanks, i get it now, i really love ur avatar, do u have a colour version at all? and yeah it is kinda well suited to the thread at hand :D

@ chameleon,

DX - I am JUST LIKE YOU.
....well, except I wear dresses....and birthed children....and wear lipstick.....
Otherwise - I'M JUST LIKE YOU! :D
---- I'm glad you're taking a liking to my avatar now too :) ur right i haven't birthed children and apart from the weekend thing i've never worn lipstick or dresses ;) (is he joking? :D ;) )

also i like ur sig as well, matches well with the avatar and says alot.

...as to the morals, it seem as though I expect everyone's "moral code" to be very similar to mine.. yeah same here and i still do kinda think that is the case i just think that something has happened to people that hasn't happened to me that has changed their moral outlook (usually the change is because of need...in my opinion)

like one I heard about where the fathers take their daughter's virginity. To them it's a caring act, to introduce the daughter to the joys of sex, with a man they know and feel comfortable and safe with. :eek: omg that is wrong!!! wrong wrong worng wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...wrong!!

wrong wrong wrong wrong worng wrong....:eek: wrong!

:soapbox: wrong! bad bad bad people....very bad people :mad:

...thats just not right....it's just....wrong so wrong!

*ahem* sry, erm...i agree with chameleon in saying that i don't think this is right either and i would shoot myself before i would concider otherwise (just to note i would shoot myself in the head....just to stop any misconceptions)

IT'S WRONG VERY VERY WRONG!

runinl8

03-23-06, 02:03 PM

@ runinl8,
thanks, i get it now, i really love ur avatar, do u have a colour version at all? and yeah it is kinda well suited to the thread at hand :D Sadly no, (hangin' head) I just happen to run across it while surfin' the web. I am glad you like it.

DimensionX

03-23-06, 02:10 PM

@ runinl8,

i might try and colorize it, would u mind if i did that at all?

runinl8

03-23-06, 02:12 PM

@ runinl8,

i might try and colorize it, would u mind if i did that at all?
Feel free to play with it and make it your own. :)

madd

03-23-06, 02:19 PM

I agree with Lettie that shame is learned. I've heard of different societies that do things that we would find abhorable - like one I heard about where the fathers take their daughter's virginity. To them it's a caring act, to introduce the daughter to the joys of sex, with a man they know and feel comfortable and safe with.
My assumption is that the people you describe are not without shame and guilt, they just have different references for their shame and guilt. Say, there was one family in that tribe that for whatever reason were not able to couple in their traditional fashion i.e. father and daughter. Presumably they would react with shame and guilt? So the mechanism for shame and guilt are there, they just have societal triggers.

lettie

03-23-06, 02:56 PM

...and i'm just talking here, with no true knowledge (i will have to do the reasearch thing) I would say the instinctive emotions an infant exhibits are there the happy, sad angry they experience these emotions with no knowledge of outside lessons..they just feel happy, sad, angry, kind of like hungry... but things such as shame and guilt could only be learned. Now... there are obviously different references for shame and guilt..depending on many factor. I'm just having a hard time.. because I can't see these as instinctive emotions... anyway Iknow research, research

chameleon

03-23-06, 03:43 PM

Oh I see what you're saying now madd. Yeah, I never assumed they were shame free, just didn't feel shame about the same things we would. A good example might be the age of consent all over the world. It varies so much, and even within the US it varies quite a bit. So what is shameful in one state, isn't in the other.
That's a very interesting thought - would a father in the Introduce Daughter To Sex society feel shame if he couldn't do it. Makes me wonder what we might do free of guilt, that they see as shameful.

I don't know if I think the mechanism for guilt is there when we're born. I'll have to think about that. Does an infant have the capability to feel guilty for biting his mother while nursing? For batting someone with his fist? For pulling a cat's tail? For being naked? (there's a GREAT example for this topic). Or is shame only learned? Hmmm...
If I was somehow never exposed to people (forget the impossibility of that and just roll with me here :p ) and lived on a deserted island, would I develop shame for my nudity? For self pleasure? For bad thoughts?
I don't know.....

btw - I've heard of a study done long ago (no proof to back that up) that proved that laughing and crying are learned expressions. The infants were intentionally exposed to the wrong messages and laughed when they were sad and cried when they were happy.
:confused:
Weird huh?
If only I had more info about all these crazy things I've heard! I grew up hearing about these things probably mostly from my dad - whom I consider to be an excellent source. He's got the credentials to spew out that kind of freaky stuff and have me believe it.

My assumption is that the people you describe are not without shame and guilt, they just have different references for their shame and guilt. Say, there was one family in that tribe that for whatever reason were not able to couple in their traditional fashion i.e. father and daughter. Presumably they would react with shame and guilt? So the mechanism for shame and guilt are there, they just have societal triggers.

madd

03-23-06, 03:45 PM

I understand Lettie, we're just jawin'. I certainly ain't a medical researcher:faint:. And from what I've read even the researchers and theorists don't agree. But it is a pretty good illustration of the b/w argument. I almost feel manipulated.:D :rolleyes:

madd

03-23-06, 03:56 PM

Makes me wonder what we might do free of guilt, that they see as shameful.
Now we're moving from neurology to sociology. Taboos. Woo Hoo. Nothing has changed as much in the last 50 years in this society as much as taboos. From what we eat (sushi) to who we marry (Woody Allen/Sun Li Previn) to abortion to homosexuality and (and the open and frank discussion of who is master of their domain) taboos are being broken all over the place. How many things do you do openly today that you wouldn't have been caught dead doing when you were younger. And what things did you do openly when you were younger that you would find difficult to do/discuss in public now. Some of it has to do with education and maturity, but some have nothing to do with either. Fun subjects. I wish I didn't have a learning disability and could have studied some really hard subjects. The hard stuff is so endlessly amusing.

chameleon

03-23-06, 04:05 PM

Good point madd! I think upcoming rebellious generations, in liking to shock the the world, have a hand in making a lot of previous taboos (shames) no longer shameful things. Have to be careful what examples I use here, but I think a safe one is piercings.
Also, we've invented new ways to, as some people see it, "sin" - using human cells for stem cell research, cloning, ....I'm tempted to say abortion and bombs, but those types of things have always been around in one form or another, bombs being destruction or mass killing. If my brain worked better I could come up with more good examples :D

SB_UK

03-23-06, 04:23 PM

Really :-) don't worry about this whole 'research research' business.
It's so much more fun and enlightening to have one's own ideas, that is, things that one *knows* to be true ... placed into context by others who're trusted not to possess ulterior motives.

The above discussion is real cool, and just as has been mentioned, Dx's call on grey waiting for a makeover is a smart observation.

... just one small problem though ...

One's ability to see complex moral issues as black or white is potentially the sign of two things ... a mind predicated on ...

... an overly simplistic logical engine, which is merely arriving at a black or white answer by inappropriate simplifications
or
... a very much more complicated or sophisticated logical engine that can balance all of these competing factors, and thereby deliver an unequivocal response ie black or white.

ADD is characterized by the latter and NOT the former of these two models i.e. the propensity towards thought using a more sophisticated tool.

The black and white issue relating to morality is therefore...
...directly related to seeing grey more often in ethical decisions
(prior to Dx and Lettie type dis- or re-colouration of the issue)
-and-
...directly related to Pia's & K's idea of seeing issues in more dimensions than those applying nonADDer thought processes

So ethical dilemma -> more likely grey*1 -> requirement to solve -> solution delivered = b or w*2
NonADDer thought processes would be more akin to:
*1 black or white
*2 grey

All in all, each post on this thread has been spot on :-) ... all absolutely consistent with one another, and all we need to do, to avoid the problems of the apparent inconsistency between:
b/w morality calls
and
seeing greater complexity in problems (more layers, more shades of grey, 47 shades of white, problems in multiple dimensions)...
... is to think of ADD as the capacity for thought, using a more complicated or sophisticated logical engine.

The ADDer mind vs. the nonADDer mind comparison
...is simply a comparison between a ...
more sophisticated vs. a less sophisticated logical engine.

:-)

Do you see what I'm getting at Komodo (apologies :-) I have Vermillion's urge to shake the Kokomo tree?)

I swear ... Chameleon and Komodo ... a fine pair of names for poikilothermic cold-hearted ADDers :-)

(boo) hiss...ss...ss

SB.

Another thought ... have you ever noticed an affinity for learning from first principles?

chameleon

03-23-06, 04:38 PM

SB - thank you for that last post!
Perhaps I should mention that I do believe that there are times when it is the right thing to do the wrong thing for the right reasons. :eyebrow::confused::p:D:rolleyes:

For instance, killing an innocent person would be a BAD thing. But killing an innocent person to save 15 babies? That would be doing the wrong thing to get the result of having done the right thing. It's the RIGHT thing to save those babies. It's the WRONG thing to kill the innocent (I'm not going to enter into whether it's right or wrong to kill the guilty here...too complicated for my point :p ).
And I HAVE run into times in my life where I have chosen to do the wrong thing for the right reasons. BUT I KNEW WHAT I WAS DOING WAS WRONG. I knowingly committed that wrong act without letting it turn "gray". It stayed "black".
Am I making any sense?
So that is how I keep wrong in the black zone, right in the white zone, and nothing in the gray zone.

SB_UK

03-23-06, 04:52 PM

Am I making any sense?
I'm not too sure that some of the guys here would consider me qualified to answer this question :-)
For the record though ...the word with 3 letters.

So ... what's real important, maybe even of paramount importance ...?...

-seeing grey where others see black and white
-working black and white out from grey
-feeling and knowing when something is white, black, grey ---and--- not being susceptible to influence i.e. being bludgeoned into one of these 3 states against one's will

To be a little clearer, the full on ADDer mind will viciously rebel given a task that we cannot ethically condone ... this is 'enforced moral consistency.'

I hope Koko is thinking about logically over-endowed Vulcans as he reads this ...

SB.

Sometime back in a thread called 'polymorphic' ... we set off down a road in which the duality between logic and morality was drawn,
and the comparison between the battle between
Godzilla and King Kong
i.e. God and King as exemplified by ...
our codification of higher ideals (morality, justice) (God)
in law (King)

And similarly in medical research ... i.e. ... 'playing God.'

So ... my point is what exactly ... :-) ...?...

So ... what's real important, maybe even of paramount importance ...?...
PS The link points back to the post where I placed it ... I wanted to see what'd happen if I clicked on a self-referential post (the reason for the smiley face above the URL ...sorry... won't happen again, and as Morrissey once sung

Not until the next time ...
:-)

lettie

03-23-06, 05:10 PM

AAh Chameleon.. but how would your example change if perhaps this innocent person has proven abilities to accomplish great things, and has the greatest knowledge known of our times. The 15 babies are all an unknown... does that change anything?

btw.. i am completely crying right now. I understood 99% of what SB UK said. The very last line threw me a little.. we tend to lear from first principals (of what)

...and the only reason I want to run and find the research is I have spent a very vocal 24hours blasting the evils of such transgressions...i won't lose any sleep over it but.. (oh..they are also members of the group with difficulty navigating this forum... so research put off until tomorrow.

SB UK.. i also believe the ADDer mind would tend to be more complex. But... question. would you disagree that there are things which we can learn logically.. for example there are facts and generally accepted information which lead lead to a specific idea. Then other ideas which could only be learned emotionally... for example religion. There is no logical way to either choose or believe in a particular religion. If one does so.. it has to be based on a feeling or emotional level. you could not logically debate which religion, if any, was the best, or correct one. I'm kind of thinking as morals along the same line...technically morals must be learned and supported on an emotional level, backed by ideals and beliefs. Although, we all understand that society has generally accepted ideals of moral behavior.. can you really say any of these are correct or logical. I know I'm rambling... but my question would really be If ADDers have a dysfunction, or regulation of emotion problem.. wouldn't their be a possibilty that these emotionally learned ideals could be problematic for an ADDer..
..i hope that made sense. It was brilliant and poetic in my mind...but..

Albino Fox

03-23-06, 05:47 PM

btw - I've heard of a study done long ago (no proof to back that up) that proved that laughing and crying are learned expressions. The infants were intentionally exposed to the wrong messages and laughed when they were sad and cried when they were happy.
:confused:
Weird huh?I can imagine that these expressions could be highly influenced, while at the same time, we all know that crying occurs naturally, often in the very first seconds of the child's life. Like anyone, a baby makes decisions partly based on their own feelings, and partly based on the feelings of those around them. If others teach them to cry when they're happy and laugh when they're sad, they might think there's some merit to it. Come to think of it, there are those who cry whenever they're really happy, and laughing away sadness might often be a nice idea. Still, when emotions really overwhelm one, I'd be surprised if the appropriate reaction – crying when mournful, laughing when tickled – don't take over. Then again, crying and laughing are kinda similar, and might be able to replace each other, to a certain extent... hey, I really don't know. What I do know is that I had uncountably many times in my childhood when I really didn't want to cry, but I did it.

As for the matter of black and white morals, I myself often tend to act like there is a beautiful black-and-white moral map to things, but all our lives we have to train our eyes to see it. In my instinctive view, there are gray areas all over the place, but only because all of the borders between black and white are blurred up. Different societies find different approches toward sharpening these areas of the map, which accounts for vastly differing images of morality. Admittedly, I figure there are some who say 'just forget the map and go wherever's the biggest thrill'.

chameleon

03-23-06, 06:08 PM

Lettie - For me the fact that the Innocent was going to do great things might change my view, say if he were going to save a hundred babies with a new vaccine. But if his accomplishment was going to be Shakespearian quality poetry, no. To me, nothing is worth more than life.
Great question though!

Albino Fox - I think that I would disagree that a newborn baby "makes the decision" to cry. And I don't think it's crying out of sadness either.
When we were pre teens, our grandma sat my siblings and I (or "me" for Lettie :p ) down at her kitchen table, made us eggs (I'll never forget, she forgot to salt them and they were horrible) and told us Grandpa had just died.
We looked at each other across the table, and then all broke out in laughter.
We did not find it funny. We just didn't know what to do with the emotions we felt. So there's a case for you where the ingrained, proper emotion didn't take over.
I think you've hit on something there about laughing and crying being so similar. Doesn't it seem like they both use the same muscles? And as was mentioned, sometimes people laugh until the cry. And I know that when I laugh too long, I feel depressed afterwards. I wonder how strongly related laughing and crying really are. I've also always wondered why animals don't laugh and cry. Seems like they wouldn't be able to help it - like we can't - even if it came out sounding funny from say a cat or an hyena. I'm not talking about whining sounds when they get their tail stepped on, I'm talking about full fledged crying, say when a mate dies.
Does the fact that other animals don't laugh and cry mean that it's a learned reaction for humans? Not a natural one at all?

SB_UK

03-23-06, 06:16 PM

:-)
This may appear a little freaky, even though it is quite short.

The magical part of Gödel's incompleteness theorem is that ...

(Remember his name this'a'way ... God's Hell)

We occupy an internal world (rrreality).

Our rrreality is simply a model, in our heads, with actors, and ourself as an actor too ... think Neo waking up from the Matrix ... nothing more to it, and of course, I'm not suggesting that your next meal is going to taste like chicken :-)

This internal model encapsulates the internal world, and creates the impression that we're in an external world.
Think how I am writing this, but everything you know about me comes from previous associations on threads, which have now become incorporated into your mind,internal mind,internal model,internal reality,internal world.

There are 2 structures for this model, one heavily cross-linked, and the other not.
Think trees growing in a field, and trees with crowns that merge into a canopy.

We occupy an arbitrary internal realm (mind,model,reality,world) which is absolutely determined by the building block of that internal rrreality.

The more we understand rrreality ie our context ie everything around us ...

The more cross-linked and complete this basic structure becomes.

Think a planet with trees, with predecessor structures forming no canopy anywhere, and newer structures forming canopies from not at all ... to covering the entire planet in a green halo ... all dependent on learning.

Logic and morality co-incide as these structures develop, and logic/morality become seen as arbitrary from an objective perspective i.e. minus man, however this is not to say that logic and morality do not have the appearance of objective, as the ADDer minds converge on the 'canopy' ... it's the appearance of an objective logical absolute moral state *predicated* on the basic repeating structure of the model ... which feeds into the arbitrary component from Gödel.

Importantly, such heavy cross-linking forces individuals together ie towards shared patterns of logic and morality.
Logic and morality converge ... the idea of a collective consciousness.

This idea has already been mentioned previously here on this thread.

Emotional (unconscious) and Conscious threads are forced to co-incide.
Why?
An expression of the true relationship between logic and un/conscious thought ... think logic of emotions :-) ... there's always a reason, grounded in logic, even if we're not able to put our finger on it.

I think that this latter point relates to your observations on emotions, religion, morality and logic; I think though that religion would be the first to fall out from this set, a consequence of my description of the method that I provided above, for remembering Gödel's name.

I wonder, is that Kokomama humming Lennon's 'Imagine'?

The important point, I guess, about all of this, is that we are now replete with tools to deduce a moral code for ourselves, which is shared with others, which does not need to be taught, which'll feel right, and which'll make conscious logical sense ... all of which, I think you just wrote :-)

If you like ... enforced moral consistency ... constrained within logical bounds ... imprisoned in a velvet cell ... but I, personally, just see it as a buncha' shiny happy people being happy and shiny ... but most of all ... happy :-)

SB.

PS The science bit ... Google search terms:
(Thanks Tammy):

connectionist/cognitive science/mind brain duality/distributed systems/Smolensky .... and the big cheese J.S.Albus and CMAC.

The last paper I saw (freely available) ... connectionist + distributed
from ???Prof Verstehen??? Institute of Neroinformatics, Zurich University published in 1992, 3 or 4 (review paper 56 pages).

chameleon

03-23-06, 06:35 PM

SB -

Now you've hit on an exciting subject for me. I've always recognized that MY life is whatever I'd like to percieve it as, and that holds true for everyone in my opinion.
I see this theory in action all the time -

An dog-faced girl complaining about her boyfriend ditching her - "How could he do that to ME? I'm the hottest thing 'round these parts!".

Untalented, tone deaf man - "Boy I should'a been an actor! Or a musician! I can sing like the birds!".

My mother - "You can find something good in everyone". And she can!

I learned long ago what a wonderful thing it is when I can filter my life. Once my Dad started to tell me something bad about my Grandma. I stopped him saying that I wanted my image of her to remain intact. Ignorance is bliss.

If I don't like my personality traits, I envision new ones, adopt them, and become them.
I am what I envision. My environment is what I envision.
What POWER!
And when my life is all done - I will, metaphorically, be left with a movie that contains all the "facts" that I wanted it too, and, if I can carry it off, none of the self omitted ones. :D
Selective memory? Selective vision? Selective reactions to our environment?

SB_UK

03-23-06, 07:02 PM

Your signature says it all ...
except this isn't a meaningless feel good movie ...
we really do feel bad because of our reflection
of the negative reactions to our ways,
and sure, that's exactly what our difference does ...
throw the mind into freefall during daydream Nation (Sonic Youth)
break the sound barrier ... a coupla'times over

---thinking ADDstyle is soaring---

SB.

DimensionX

03-23-06, 07:03 PM

I am what I envision. My environment is what I envision. i want to envision myself being co-ordinated and to be able to look before i leap but unfortunately litterally 5-10mins ago i pretty much just concussed myself on a door (my foot basically trapped the door and i just went smack right into the spine of it) and pretty much 2-5mins ago i pretended to dive out of the way and nose butted the floor.

although i was laughing at it and still am i feel slightly out of it, almost fell over from the door incident and i'm still quite stunned

i want my environment to be door and floor free :(

my head is swimming a lil, i'm gonna get some water or something

chloe516

03-23-06, 07:05 PM

I think shame and guilt are not learned, but I think that the things for which we feel shame or guilt differ because of culture.

Lettie, I respect your opinion but my gut feeling ( I'm not educated enough to have a hypothesis:p ) is that shame and guilt are hardwired, basic emotions. They can be manipulated by parents and in-laws but thats a different story)

Scroll down on this sight and it has links that you might find interesting
http://www.personalityresearch.org/basicemotions.html

chameleon

03-23-06, 07:21 PM

SB I forgot to say, I tell my kids when they rebel against not being the center of the universe, "This is MY movie and I'M the star. You're a bit player in MY movie. When you grow up you can star in your own movie!" :p
That's how it looks from my viewpoint!

DX - Hmmm...we can change how we see our environment, who we are, how we react to our environment...can we change what our environment is? With mind power? Only if we're Tenacious D :p

DimensionX

03-23-06, 07:25 PM

@ chameleon,

i dunno, all i know is my head is swimmin and i have a massive red mark down the side of my face

i'm trying to read SB_UK's posts but i'm having differculty, i can't seem to focus (probably partly to do with the door)

Tater

03-23-06, 08:07 PM

Well, heres my take on this. First of all, i have a hard time understanding what you mean by a black/white distinction of things. Most of my life, i never have thought that there is a clear black white distinction in morals. I think that they are relative, and I also am very buddhist in the view that most of these "morals" that we have are only human creations of duality. I really dont see good/bad anymore, i see good everywhere, depending on how people percieve them (this makes sense to me, not most people probably, cant really explain it, its hard for me). Also, i have never seen this as absolutely bad, i tend to see how people can get the thoughts that they did. Ultimately, black/white distincitons for me come from the view of free will or not. In studying ADHD more and more, i dont believe that there really is a free will, that we are a slave to our brains, our neurochemistry/logical structures of the brain (in stabile's way of understanding the brain). I do though, think we have an ability to change from t1 to t2. Well... i will stop with my bad habit of posting too long, but to answer your very first question, i dont believe in duality (partially a product of the idea of free will), so therefore i do not think things are black/white distinction, i see everything as inherently connected and therefore not black nor white.

chameleon

03-23-06, 08:45 PM

Thank you for chiming in Tater. Especially with a viewpoint that's so different than mine.
There's no way I could get to the point that I see good in EVERYTHING, no matter how deeply I submerged myself into Buddhism, which I do have a bit of in me.
I know religion is a taboo topic on these boards so I won't go any further on that line of thought. We could open this subject up much wider if we added the morality of religious teachings, but we must steer clear of that topic. :D

lettie

03-23-06, 09:27 PM

.. soo just a little more rambling. I again understood most of SB UK.. and in a not so enticing way.. think i've tried to say something similar. Reality is really only what our brain percieves it to be. two people presented with the exact same situation can experience two completely seperate realities. If they are presented with a boss yelling at them, when they have done nothing wrong. One person may listen, realize they've done nothing wrong, think he must be having a bad day, or man he's really lost it.. in that process they have produced no fear, bitterness, embarassment.. only because of their thoughts, and how they viewed the situation. The other person may work themselves into complete distress thinking i must have done something wrong, he's picking on me this isn't fair.. and work themselves into a full panic attack.
..I know i have a point..somewhere.. maybe I should go talk with the others about avatars.
.... anyway, I think what i'm trying to say is from experience, expectations, self-talk and perceptions we can continuously create a "reality" which imprisons us by irrational emotions.. and I believe these can be changed if change perception of the reality.

Kokomo

03-23-06, 10:27 PM

I hope Koko is thinking about logically over-endowed Vulcans as he reads this ...

SB.

:-)
I have learned from you, Master SB, to look at all of the threads as one large intertwined thread...so of course, Stalin and Spock came to mind!! But, I still love to fly!! And as you mentioned, research...boo, hiss! LOL! Good to see you posting again.

lettie

03-23-06, 11:51 PM

000h.. SB UK and Kokopuff engaging in the fine art of subtle witty banter. Chameleon.. there must be some serious 000s around here somewhere. The above post is the most likely location of these 0s.. as they are drawn to the artistic culmination of two in the process of subtle, sly, and witty posts filled with imagery and male flattery.

Nova

03-24-06, 12:11 AM

When, off Adderall, I can tell you that I experience all emotions, in all their heightened glory.

When on it, as I'm on only 10 mgs. daily as of now, all emotions are ever so slightly dulled.

When I used to be on 90 mgs. daily, in the past (yes, I was, folks, and I should never have been on such a high dose) I felt apathy.
As in I did not feel it a priority to communicate with others. At ALL.
I only did so when absolutely necessary- even at work.

Again- that only applied to me.

Please remember to always consult your psychiatrist/md with any occurances with YOUR drug prescriptions.

Nova

Nova

DimensionX

03-24-06, 12:26 AM

@ nova,

what is ur opinion on ur morals?

@ lettie,

wha?

Nova

03-24-06, 12:44 AM

I was wondering about some things regarding how people perceive their own emotions in general.

Why are people so apt to put emotions in categories of 'negative and positive' anyways ?

Why do emotions have to stem from the categories of 'fear' or 'happiness' ?

Why can't they just exist on their own ?

See, in my opinion, when you start analyzing your own emotions, as to 'where they stem from' and start trying to label them as 'negative' and 'positive', your really not doing yourself any benefit, because what you're actually doing is just saying:

" 'Oh..I can't feel that BAD emotion. I have to put it away somewhere way deep inside me..in that 'bad emotion box' and never let it out. I only want to feel the 'good emotions' "

But how will you ever know WHY you feel those so called 'bad' emotions, in the first place, if you never allow yourself to feel them ?? I'm not saying to act on them !!

I'm saying to allow yourself to experience feeling them and not 'label' them as bad or good- and just experience them without any labels- and without any analyzation of where they 'stem' from.

The reason I'm saying this to you, is because I've had people tell me that *I* was feeling FEAR, when I was feeling DISGUSTED about something !!!!!
Two absolutely different emotions !!! I should know !!!
I was the one who was feeling disgusted, for hades sakes !

Nova

lettie

03-24-06, 12:48 AM

Nova.. do you also think the Adderall for you alters your ability to control or suppress emotions.. or just a slight dulling of them.

I often feel this way as well.. on Adderall, however, on occasion I feel as if i'm emotions on speed.. anyone else experience this.. I digress

lettie

03-24-06, 12:56 AM

But how will you ever know WHY you feel those so called 'bad' emotions, in the first place, if you never allow yourself to feel them I hope my responses don't convey this.. bc i'm not saying to not feel emotions at all. I am speaking of more of learning how to feel them appropriately.. or in adequate proportion to the cause of the emotion. Ex... appropriate to feel, grief, sadness, depression at the lost of loved one... but with passage of time those become inappropriate(unhealthy) and more irrational as time passes. I am speaking more of controlling self talk and perceptions.. to limit irrational emotions or reactions

chameleon

03-24-06, 01:08 AM

I was on 200mgs Adderall daily and I never felt emotionally numbed. :confused:
When, off Adderall, I can tell you that I experience all emotions, in all their heightened glory.

When on it, as I'm on only 10 mgs. daily as of now, all emotions are ever so slightly dulled.

When I used to be on 90 mgs. daily, in the past (yes, I was, folks, and I should never have been on such a high dose) I felt apathy.
As in I did not feel it a priority to communicate with others. At ALL.
I only did so when absolutely necessary- even at work.

Again- that only applied to me.

Please remember to always consult your psychiatrist/md with any occurances with YOUR drug prescriptions.

Nova

Nova

SB_UK

03-24-06, 02:00 AM

.1.. what you mean by a black/white distinction of things.

.2.. i never have thought that there is a clear black white distinction in morals. I think that they are relative...

.3.. i dont believe that there really is a free will, that we are a slave to our brains, our neurochemistry/logical structures of the brain (in stabile's way of understanding the brain).

.4.. I do though, think we have an ability to change from t1 to t2.

... ... ...therefore i do not think things are black/white distinction, i see everything as inherently connected and therefore not black nor white.
Hey (Medi-)/(Po(e)-) (mind/brain duality :-)),

The post above about 2 methods --> 'black and white thinking' (with ADD as the latter) was exactly aimed at your comments, which align with KokoPuffs (!!!nooo...).

Kokopuffs, building blocks,
Kokopuffs, roof tops,
Chocolate flavoured Kokopuffs ...
...Do you guys remember the beauty of the advert (several months after a re-branding of Kokopuffs to Chocokrispies) that stated 'public riots and threats of civil disobedience have convinced us to revert back to our original name'?...

Heck ... KarmakomokomoKarmaKarmaKomalien ... 'Kokomo' will be back one day soon ... :-)

...workplace bullying, if you know what I mean ...of course over now, all thanks to those magical 3 letters... A.D.D. ... and the speed of thought that we are capable of.

heyyy! momma ... the milks turned all chocolatey ... look :-)

.1.. bw thinking == the requirement to make a decision, and to be sure of your decision ... maybe consider it as 100 tests of the same basic question ... and answering the same way each time.
This is ---not--- to be confused with true 'black'and 'white' ... think of it as grey and a slightly different (deeper or lighter) shade of grey, which allows one to choose the ...?darker?...or...?lighter?...
*Importantly* your observations hold, as do everybody elses.

.2.. :-) black (grey) vs white (barely perceptible different shade of grey)
Identifying the difference is everything.

.3.. pretty cool ... and exactly the thrust of the section above on our new apparently objectively determined state married with Godel's understanding of rrreality (our own internally held realities) vs RRReality (external absolute true objective reality).
I adore the irony of shifting into a more objective state, with the experiential perspective of simultaneously shifting into a less objective state :-)
Think of it this way ... happy happy happy ... ooo eyes opening ... ooo we're in a canoe ... ooo la la la ... ooo look pretty waterfall ... ooo best find the paddle.

.4..As little Arnold S would say ... 'this idea ''will be back'' ' ... and it is funny that baddie Arnie could switch into goodie Arnie in the whisper of a sequel.
Here's an example ... we have a book exchange club ... and I picked up 'Idoru' by Gibson yesterafternoon ... on the back ... 'a masterful study of reality, and what it is to be human' ...bingo Gibson, you freakin-freakazoid (not freakin-freak ... that's a whole different kettle of ADD).
For sure T -- we can change, a gazillion times over ... it's consistency at any one point in time that's the all important idea, not consistency over time ... which as you have said, is rendered far less likely.

A little Alanis anyone ...

You live you learn
You love you learn
You cry you learn
You lose you learn

... ... ...which is all to say, Tater ... that you do agree :-)
sorry!
Have a look at the Google search terms in my post above ...

*Connectionis -t/-m* may be described as ...

... i see everything as inherently connected and therefore not black nor white.
So ... when did you adopt this new paradigm in cognitive science, recognizing its advantages over

competitor paradigms including symbolicism and dynamicism?

chameleon

03-24-06, 02:17 AM

SB, I think I had a slight seizure while reading your post :p

I don't see B & W as you described it. I would describe it more like this -
I'm a B & W person, so when I'm sorting my laundry (or morals) I throw away all the baskets but 2. I mark one basket BLACK and the other WHITE.
Now, as I examine each piece of dirty clothing, I must decide whether it belongs in the BLACK or WHITE basket.
If the garment is pure white, it goes in the WHITE basket.
If it has any other hue, even the slightest teensiest bit, it gets tossed into the BLACK basket.

To me, there is RIGHT and then there is everything else.
There's no slightly right or almost right. If it ain't 100% right, then it's wrong.

It's drastic, I know. Which is why I posted the inquiry here about it.

SB_UK

03-24-06, 02:32 AM

... I must decide whether it belongs in the BLACK or WHITE basket.
:-) But that's exactly it ... :-)
I'm guessing that you were expecting this response.

...so here's what I mean.

A decision has to be made.
We need to make a choice ... one of two.
Rarely is there a true case of black and white e.g. where everyone would agree with your decision.
However, that considered, we still need to make a decision.
That decision will give us the semblance or feeling of certainty that the choice that we make of 'black' or 'white' is correct.
That semblance or feeling arises due to the weight provided by the intricacy, complexity, weight provided ...of the intricate, complex and heavy logical reasoning that we have employed.
There is the appearance of black and white --- of making the correct decision, within a landscape of grey ... that's the experiential perspective of using the ADD engine.
There is grey --- but from this grey comes black and white ... and at that point in time ... we are invested with the feeling that the decision that we have made, was the only decision that we could have made.

If you look back at your example ...
man -> murdered -> OR man murders
and Lettie's
man -> murdered -> OR man murders -> NOT saves more than he murders

...we see your ability to see grey (your choice of this example is an expression of your ability to see grey ... through choice of an example of a paradigm in which grey is the classical backdrop)

And your response ... absolutely unequivocal ... is an expression of the extraction of back and white from a landscape of grey.

Point 4 ...way... ... above ...*not* Point 2 :-) ...

ooo ooo ooo
ooo SB. ooo
ooo ooo ooo

Have you tried this?
Zero...the biography of a dangerous idea by Seife.
Incidentally, book starts off with a study of the sexagesimal (base 60) Babylonian system ... you know hours, minutes, seconds ... base 60 rocks
...almost as much as binary... and we're back to 1's and 0's ... logic and structure built on these 2 eensy weensy tiny little 'bits' ... :-)

chameleon

03-24-06, 02:38 AM

No way SB! :p
All my grays go into the black basket!
I don't have to pick whether it's more white or more black, if it has any gray at all, it goes in the black basket!

Don't you see? It's so simple.

lettie

03-24-06, 02:49 AM

Chameleon.. i like that example. Sometimes I feel I sort morals and ideals similarly to what you posted. I, however, have been known to look at the white basket, and then the black basket, and then the piece of laundry... and just toss it out or throw it away rather than tarnish the basket..

I am certain that during SBs last post i had some sort of seizure.. and fear i was dangerously close to spontaneous combustion.

.. bw thinking == the requirement to make a decision, and to be sure of your decision
I'm not quite certain about this.. is it an actual requirement to be sure of the decision.. this would leave so many ideas and people hanging as non-thought.

...and actually i am fairly certain i posses the ability to make decisions without thinking. or thinking with no possibility of decision. And, to be sure of that decision.. i'm sure i would surely savor the safety of sureness.. but what is really sure.
Kokopuffs to Chocokrispies
Is this true.. i've never heard that the degrading of "kokopuffs by calling them chocokrispies is certainly riot worthy.

SB_UK

03-24-06, 02:58 AM

I don't have to pick whether it's more white or more black, if it has any gray at all, it goes in the black basket!

.2.. :-) black (grey) vs. white (barely [but just] perceptibly different [lighter] shade of grey).
==
:-) white vs. white (barely [but just] perceptibly different [the lightest] shade of [sub-white] grey).
Identifying the difference is everything.
And throwing [sub-white] grey into black, whilst white chills pure, and the shades of black marvel at their spectrum.

Don't you see? It's so simple.
I kkknowhhhh ... black and white from grey, giving us the experiential perspective that we can see someting unequivocally clearly ... disambiguated ... and just as you describe ... clearly, as if ...

... you see? It's so simple.

:-) ... words beginning with 'x' and 'z' rock.
XenoXenZenZero...phile

SB.

chameleon

03-24-06, 03:08 AM

Nononono! I still fight against you on this! Struggling to hold my own here!

My white is not a shade of gray...not even the teensiest eensiest bit. No gray is allowed. Not one molecule of gray. -

A sin is a sin is a sin is a sin.

An act is either good, or bad. No inbetween. No gray. Not even a little gray.
If the act is 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999 (to infinity)% good, it's still wrong.

No gray. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Gray doesn't even get to LOOK at it. :p

Something is either good, or bad. And to be good it must be completely void of bad. Completely.

These, of course, are only MY way of seeing morals/good and bad.

SB_UK

03-24-06, 03:48 AM

...is it an actual requirement to be sure of the decision

Heya,
I guess I'm getting at the urge to make moral decisions based on all available information (at the time) ... and being sure that all of this information is integrated into the decision, which transforms the grey landscape into a simpler black or white picture.
So ... another example ... imagine a continuous distribution (normal curve, Gaussian distribution, bell-shaped curve), which can be dichotemized unequivocally by placement of a line on the abscissa (dual meanining cut-off) ... thresholding black and white.

I.E. black below the line and white above.

Now ... imagine that ADD gives us the capacity to position that line very, very, very specifically at one point on the x-axis, and then imagine, that ADD allows the thickness of the line to be reduced to sub-atomic width.

...hyperbolae imagery...

Requirement to be sure doesn't mean, that one is sure in the 'cocksure' sense ... just convinced that the scales of justice are off centre, maybe even if only slightly ... and the irony ... again in line with the irony I provided above with respect to attaining a more objectively defined moral state with the experiential perspective of the exact opposite ... is that ...
?what-ifs? have exactly the same effect ...

...to be clear :-)
...that we are sure, and know we're sure, but can see clearly how theorizing on additional information might radically alter our stance ...

...kinda' like...

...but how would your example change...

Do you like comic books?
How about the classic Marvel 'What if?' series?

“What if the Hulk had always had Bruce Banner’s brain?"

...Have you ever felt the anger of having your moral code contravened by others...?...

:-)

SB.

SB_UK

03-24-06, 03:59 AM

Nononono! I still fight against you on this!
:-)!
... but we're agreeing.

My white is not a shade of gray
... ... ... ....not even the teensiest eensiest bit.
... ... ... ... No gray is allowed.
... ... ... ... Not one molecule of gray.

... Identifying the difference is everything [[e.g. between]] the barely [but just] perceptibly different [[lightest]] shade of [sub-white] grey [[and white]] ...
SB.

PS --- you can tell me to crawl back under that rock from whence I came, if you like ... :-)

Struggling to hold my own here!
PPS --- I was once asked whether I could do XYZ ... I said 'ermmm... I guess I can hold my own' ... To which the response was
'well that's good, because in this firm we do not believe in holding other peoples' '
silly! cheeky! naughty! Boss(wo)man

I wonder ... is there a meta-minded Jung Koko dude who might tease place these various ideas of a logical basis underlying first emotions and then intelligence, and place these ideas as the fundamental building blocks of the IeNSFTPj typology framework?

chameleon

03-24-06, 04:20 AM

We're agreeing??? Holy hell I'm so confused I can't even tell we're agreeing!

Are you saying I typed the sentence you quoted and credited to Chamel No.5 ? I don't think I wrote it, but then I don't remember lots of things :rolleyes:

I was under the impression that we didn't agree because you thought I sorted my soiled unmentionables differently than I do :eyebrow:

Hey SB...you know the parts of your posts that you preface with, "i.e...","In short...", "To summerize...", "Basically..." and whatnot? - well, those are the only parts I understand! :D
Everything else, I could swear are the rantings of a madman :p

Case in point -
So ... another example ... imagine a continuous distribution (normal curve, Gaussian distribution, bell-shaped curve), which can be dichotemized unequivocally by placement of a line on the abscissa (dual meanining cut-off) ... thresholding black and white.

I.E. black below the line and white above.But please don't go back under that rock! It's nice here and I like soakin' up the sun with ya' :)

lettie

03-24-06, 04:46 AM

I have made a decision.. one which i am sure of. Reality only exists because my brain allows this and percieves events a certain way... therefore, if my brain doesn't exsist there is no conscious reality. So, my brain has processed certain events... and the following IS reality. In this reality my ideas and ideals are correct, and generally followed and accepted by society. Therefore, if you do not agree with what i say.. you are wrong, immoral, and less than ideal. If i can't understand what you say.. such shall be labled jibberish by society.. and the person shamed, shunned, or both. in this reality there is only black and white or right or wrong.. and those attempting to mix the baskets shall be punished severely .... okay, now ya'll keep going

meadd823

03-24-06, 07:47 AM

Therefore, if you do not agree with what i say.. you are wrong, immoral, and less than ideal. If i can't understand what you say.. such shall be labled jibberish by society.. and the person shamed, shunned, or both. in this reality there is only black and white or right or wrong.. and those attempting to mix the baskets shall be punished severely ....

Streeeeatching the moderator ability to nnnnnnot make a response.....my response would not even be about any one here (on present thread) but reminisce of threads gone by over and over and over...to nauseam!!!!!!

Often people believe something is contradictory and I see it fits, as they simply did not compare equal levels. Or I very often see the weak spots in theories, see many different explanations. Sometimes I even think many others see the world in 2D and miss the third dimension.

I know what ya mean there ..like very much first hand, It becomes frustrating when you try to explain this and some refuse to "get it". I have come to the conclusion because you are right, they "can't"...this reality simply doesn't exist...outta sight outta mmind, as my mom refers to this "condition"! I often see things in a very "connective fashion".................

sort of like......
Logic and morality converge ... the idea of a collective consciousness.

we tend to learn from first principals (of what)

The first letter of the following sentence.....

"I"..........don't understand what fIrst prIncIpals Is!

wouldn't their be a possibility that these emotionally learned ideals could be problematic for an ADDer..

????? ADDers who are known to act "impulsively" based upon "feelings" rather than for (or other) thoughts......A people known for their passion......Hmmmmm ADDers having trouble learning emotionally....

my first, second and third impressions would be

No gray. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Gray doesn't even get to LOOK at it.

Actually memories are "attached" to emotions (emotional tags)

Ever get sick from eating a food? Even though the illness was later found to be viral and NOT a result of the food itself....How easy is it to eat the food again???

Is not being "repulsed" an emotion?

Picture a spinning top then.....
two people presented with the exact same situation can experience two completely separate realities.

How about experiencing two different situations while experiencing the exact same rreality?????

I'm saying to allow yourself to experience feeling them and not 'label' them as bad or good- and just experience them without any labels

Yep refer to my last entry just above this quote!!!!!!

If we never experience the emotion it never goes. grows or evolves only festers.....energy is neither created or destroyed it merely changes forms...emotional energy!!!! Hmmmm posting without meds or sleep again....

To be a little clearer, the full on ADDer mind will viciously rebel given a task that we cannot ethically condone ... this is 'enforced moral consistency.'

Yea examples may be forth coming........Can't be what I aint... the invisible truth... not by what is seen but not seen!

The linear version. my (word meaning to marry-can't even get it close enough for spell checker) was dying of cancer. We were not married but sense our second date he knew I would be woman he would spend the rest of his life with...I thought he was nuts....

Fast forward a year!

I savvy cancer didn't know if I would have what it took to stick it out till "death do us part" literally......trying to decide if I was ready to care for a dying man.......if this was feasible.......could I? should I? Depression dark clouds of grey confusion ....until one morning as the son broke the darkness of night........I realized

I was sticking it out with him, even if that meant my own end.....I couldn't live as "me" any other way!!! The journey was going to long and I may drop from exhaustion but I would rather drop dead than live with the memory of turning my back......turning my back on this man would be death even if indeed my body lived on "I" would no longer be!!!

Some things are worth more than life in this shell of existence!!!! He was right I was the woman he spent the rest of his life with....he died with me by his side Jan 1, 2003 2:15pm central time!!! Never regretted....never questioned .....no doubt......nope the hardest best thing I ever did and staying by his side was the only right answer absolutely no shades of grey!!!!!

I understand true to the end......"It" lives at the very core of my being there is no other way. This event strengthen me in ways words can not express.

When my morals are "pushed" the "death do us part" is the sound solid, resistance, that lies behind my humor, flippant responses, and scientific wordings...few have no idea how far I will take my stance on a few matters called "morals".......truth, loyalty, fairness, freedom, my children, family, are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

However in all fairness there are matter that aren't worth my life but maybe be worth a few run about in a search engine or two.....

PS The science bit ... Google search terms:
(Thanks Tammy):

and some how you knew I would be along eventually and read this.......I appreciate this but never think I see these "scientific things" as any thing but shades of grey.....;)

Think how I am writing this, but everything you know about me comes from previous associations on threads, which have now become incorporated into your mind,internal mind,internal model,internal reality,internal world.

personhood, presence, aura, and "being":=)!

chameleon

03-24-06, 10:52 AM

Tammy - You've been through a tough time. Rock and a hard place I'd say. IMO your decision to ride it out with your fiance is a very admirable one. I can't imagine how tough that must have been. I see the act as showing him a lifetime of love in a fraction of the time.

Unfortunately I didn't understand the rest of your post - the points you were trying to make. From all those apostrophes and question marks, I know you felt passionate about whatever you were trying to say though! :)

DimensionX

03-24-06, 12:43 PM

Actually memories are "attached" to emotions (emotional tags) agree with u completely here mead.

See, in my opinion, when you start analyzing your own emotions, as to 'where they stem from' and start trying to label them as 'negative' and 'positive', your really not doing yourself any benefit, because what you're actually doing is just saying:

" 'Oh..I can't feel that BAD emotion. I have to put it away somewhere way deep inside me..in that 'bad emotion box' and never let it out. I only want to feel the 'good emotions' "

But how will you ever know WHY you feel those so called 'bad' emotions, in the first place, if you never allow yourself to feel them ?? I'm not saying to act on them !!

I'm saying to allow yourself to experience feeling them and not 'label' them as bad or good- and just experience them without any labels- and without any analyzation of where they 'stem' from. maybe ur right, but some people need to do this, some people have events of which they're lashed out in anger only to realise what they've done and felt so horribly guilty that they've regretted it ever since then, if u think about it that isn't such a bad thing though, if u box emotions u need to unpack them before u can use them again, example:

a person said something about ur family of which really hurt u, any other person would have hit said person but because u've analysed urself and u have to unpack the emotions before using them u don't lash out until u weigh the concequences and i'm not talking about 'will he hit me back' i'm talking about how terrible i would feel about it, how low i had sunk because i would have striked out phsyically at a person just because they've said something verbally and plus if u look at it from the other persons point of view 'what did i do to make that person do this?', 'what may have happened in that persons life that may have triggered such a memory that they had to insult me' i might have no right to do so, in actually fact it my even be quite immoral for me to do so, so i wouldn't hit that person.

from that i would have done two things, analysed the situation, avoided the conflict and probably talk with the person later to see what was bothering that person and why, theres reasons for everything, emotions can be dangerous things if left unchecked and if the result is that i or someone becomes 'emotionally numbed' so be it, it's a fair price to pay if the result is i wouldn't be hurting anyone.

unfortunately reactions can be morals worst enemy and if someone suprises u, u could do something in which u would never ever do and regret it, in which u have to hope that person would forgive u but u can see they perspective if they don't.

as a result from doing this u can actually change the way people precieve u in real life i.e. u can choose to appear to be happy and cheerful, it makes other people around u feel better, plus no one likes to spread misery if they can help it, what u do if u like it or not effects others and u can make other people feel better by just appearing happy, telling jokes, that kinda thing and in return seeing them happy may cheer u up, if it doesn't it doesn't really matter but u know that u've done a good thing.

chameleon

03-24-06, 01:22 PM

Good morning DX :D

You seperating out that one box of meadd's text really helped me. I understand what meadd is saying in it.

" 'Oh..I can't feel that BAD emotion. I have to put it away somewhere way deep inside me..in that 'bad emotion box' and never let it out. I only want to feel the 'good emotions' "

meadd - I never said I don't allow myself to feel bad emotions. Quite the contrary, I embrace bad and painful emotions so that I can understand and attempt to work through them. Befriend them so to speak, so I can analyze in hopes of disassembling them. You know the old saying - Keep your friends close, keep your enemies even closer.
I have severe GAD meadd...I highly doubt anyone could accuse me of the mindset - "I only want to feel the 'good emotions'".

But how will you ever know WHY you feel those so called 'bad' emotions, in the first place, if you never allow yourself to feel them ?? I'm not saying to act on them !!I know why I feel them meadd. I feel them because I grew up being physically and mentally abused, was also physically and mentally abused as an adult and 2 of my sons tragically died. I think I've pretty much run the gamet on bad emotions felt, meadd.
Before passing judgement on people, you might want to make sure you know all about them.

I'm saying to allow yourself to experience feeling them and not 'label' them as bad or good- and just experience them without any labels- and without any analyzation of where they 'stem' from.Meadd, just because I label them, that doesn't mean I don't "allow" myself to feel them. I don't have the ability to "not feel" the sadness when I'm holding a dead son in my arms. Would be quite a talent if I did. I don't have the talent to not feel anger when I'm thrown against a wall, or knocked unconscious. I don't have the talent to not feel terror when I'm being raped.
Frankly, if I had that power, you bet your *** I'd use it.

Nova

03-24-06, 01:32 PM

This is exactly what I mean by not labeling emotions as 'negative/positive or black/white'.
If you take the time, to experience emotions without labels, when you encounter someone who reacts to something you've said or done, it gives you the ability to comprehend how they might be reacting out of emotions that are 'labeled'.

Thanks.

Again. This is just my opinion. Please don't start a WW3 discussion over this. (0:

Nova

quoted by DIMENSIONX: "if u think about it that isn't such a bad thing though, if u box emotions u need to unpack them before u can use them again, example:
'what may have happened in that persons life that may have triggered such a memory that they had to insult me'"

DimensionX

03-24-06, 01:39 PM

who what now?!, i huh?!

i was just replying to what nova said....did i explain what mead said as well????

lol!, oh **** i see whats happened here, that was nova i quoted not mead823!

oh thank god, i thought i was going mad,

i was replying to nova's post and told her what i do and why i do it, i also quoted mead823 because see said that we link emotions to memory tags which i agree with 100% btw.

and lettie in reply to ur earily reply, (sry i read it ages ago yet i've only just been struck with what i wanted to say), i did feel those emotions and i choose to lock them away.

as a result i suppose i've hid who i am from people but i don't see the downside, as long as other people are happy whats wrong with that?, plus i've been doing it for so long now that i doubt i could show exactly who i am even if i tried.

holy ****, sry almost forgot!, morning Chameleon :D

sry nova didn't see ur latest reply, i'm not started ww3 over this, i just think it's a very good thing thats related to the topic which could be discussed.

Nova

03-24-06, 01:43 PM

Cham,
Actually I posted all of that. But I'm really, really glad they helped you.
I only want everyone to experience inner peace.

Even if it doesn't appear like that initially.

Nova

Nova

03-24-06, 01:44 PM

Don't worry about it, LOL!
I cleared it up. (0:

Peace out.

Nova

chameleon

03-24-06, 01:52 PM

I am so confused! :confused: I wondered why meadd suddenly started acting different! :eek:

SORRY MEADD! LOVE YOU!!!!!! *offers all my worldly possessions at your feet* (a Q-tip, a red marker, and a tub of Crisco).

chameleon

03-24-06, 01:54 PM

Don't worry about it, LOL!
I cleared it up. (0:

Peace out.

NovaHow did you do that :eyebrow: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
I don't like people cleaning up my messes for me (unless I ask them to! Which is what Lettie's for :D ).

DimensionX

03-24-06, 01:56 PM

Cham,
Actually I posted all of that. But I'm really, really glad they helped you.
I only want everyone to experience inner peace.
this is nova cleaning up confusion ^

chameleon

03-24-06, 02:00 PM

Cham,
Actually I posted all of that. But I'm really, really glad they helped you.
I only want everyone to experience inner peace.

Even if it doesn't appear like that initially.

NovaAre you on crack??? :eyebrow: :p
Who did I say helped me???
And how was what you wrote "spreading inner peace"??? Had quite the opposite effect on me!
But then again, I seem to have lost my mind. Really.
OH WAIT! I see why I thought meadd posted it! Because I didn't notice that on DXs post that he switched from meadd's post to Novas! LOL it's so funny that I thought he somehow made her post all clear to me just by seperating a paragraph from all the rest! ROFL!
It's ALL your fault DX! :p *feeble and low-down attempt to save face*
Whew that there was a reasonable explanation behind my error. Still very very very sorry meadd. Please don't disown me.

chameleon

03-24-06, 02:10 PM

You know...this is why I can't post at any forums but this one...my ADHD is a complete handicap - I'M SUCH A FRICKIN' DORK!!! :p :rolleyes: :o

And don't think I haven't made that kind of identity mistake at other boards. When I do it, I run off and never go back :eek:

What the heck is the topic of this thread anyway? I've forgotten...OH YEAH! B&W thinking!

DimensionX

03-24-06, 02:24 PM

lol, nice recovery ;)

u better come back, i like this thread and it wouldn't be the same without it's creator :D

thinking about it though, i hide my emotions, i pretend everything is peachy, when i'm around people i'm happy, always trying to make jokes....usually at myself, (it makes making jokes easily, lots of material, plus it doesn't hurt anybody :) ) it cheers other people up.

to me morals are black and white, clear as crystal, as i said before there are no grey to me, grey is just moralistic situations that i haven't sorted yet ;)

my morals are set in stone and if i went against my morals i'ld feel terrible i.e. hit someone in anger, done it a couple of times before and kinda never forgiven myself for it, as a result i've kinda boxed up all my emotions and just thought to hell with it, my only concern really is making sure that my friends are happy, to do that i listen to them make jokes and so forth, i don't care about my self being, never have done probably never will do, i just don't wanna see people around me hurt or nething like that.

chameleon

03-24-06, 02:39 PM

I hide my emotions too sometimes - from others. I never intentionally hide them from myself, although sometimes it happens involuntarily for a while as a defense mechanism - the "shock" I go into temporarily when in extremely high stress situations.

I'm glad you like this thread DX - I love it too! All analytical and stuff, that's my bag. :p

Thanks for getting the thread back on track!

It's nice to share the bench with another Set In Stone Morals person. You're so good at explaining how it is for you - something I falter on and usually end up just confusing them more -
BLACK AND WHITE LAUNDRY BASKETS! BLACK AND WHITE LAUNDRY BASKETS! MUST SORT CLOTHES! MUST SORT NOW!

When I was a teenager, we were really really poor. I shoplifted a key ring. I didn't drive, not for many years to come. I didn't need it. I'd never stolen anything in my life before, or done anything illegal for that matter (that flood came later :p ) but it was pretty, I wanted it, was DAMN tired of eating beans and cow brains for dinner and never having anything the other kids had (my teenage mind was none too bright). So I stole it.
I STILL feel terrible guilt about it to this day.

i just don't wanna see people around me hurt or nething like that.You know dear, if you replace that "e" in "nething" with an "o", it won't be grammatically correct, but at least it won't cause my brain to slam on the breaks when I stumble over it, twisting my very existence into a warped pretzel as I try to decode what "nething" means :D
I'm old.
I'm not hip to the jive.
You have to talk to me like I'm wearing a bib and drooling down my chin.

meadd823

03-24-06, 10:28 PM

originaly quote I responded to:
two people presented with the exact same situation can experience two completely separate realities.

My response:

How about experiencing two different situations while experiencing the exact same rreality?????

I said that because what nova had (quoted below) said is also my reality, even though we may be experiencing different situations in our lives!

orginally posted by nova:
I'm saying to allow yourself to experience feeling them and not 'label' them as bad or good- and just experience them without any labels

Originally posted by meadd823
Yep refer to my last entry just above this quote!!!!!!

The one where I said two people can have the same rrealities even though our experiences may be different!

who what now?!, i huh?!

i was just replying to what nova said....did i explain what mead said as well????

lol!, oh **** i see whats happened here, that was nova i quoted not mead823!

I thought this was a most interesting and appropriate “mix-up”

Don't worry about it, LOL!
I cleared it up. (0:

Plus I bet Nova and I have both been mistaken for worse people than each other-lol

How did you do that

We said the same thing!!!!!

Still very very very sorry meadd. Please don't disown me.

Cham I would never disown you…actually what you did was pretty cool…..By confusing Nova and I you actually illuminated what I said about two people experiencing different things yet have the same rreality…..I could not have been able to make this point nearly as well as you did…….Our reality was similar enough to cause you to get us confused……..in my ADD rreality this was way cool!!!!!!!

No need to apologize for this!

mctavish23

03-24-06, 11:01 PM

The short answer to the question posed is...No:)

lettie

03-24-06, 11:01 PM

Well, I’m almost afraid to post here bc I’m not sure my body can stand anymore wounds. It appears that some took some of the statements where I had already said.. Just wondering if maybe it could work this way..not claiming anything… and gave me the big you are stupid.

Also, it appears that some took some of my questions….and applied the big dduuuhhh, and some lovely sarcasm as well. I’m pretty sure I was posting appropriately by saying I’m not claiming this is how it works, but I’m just throwing some theories out here. That is ok.. Is it not, to speculate and question as long as you don’t make specific claims.

Also, I had asked several questions, which I’m certain is proper. Now, I typically don’t get offended, or my feelings hurt when other members hint something is stupid, and say this is the way it is.. And whatever else. Now, next thing I know, I have the reject stamp on me, and I’m being bound, gagged , and stuffed in the short bus ( uuh just in case don’t know… short bus is extremely tacky slang way of saying you are branded with dumbness.. As the short bus was the one carrying the mentally challenged students to school. I know seems ugly but seems a lot better than retarded etc…now I’m digressing

*** I admit.. i like to act silly, and sarcastic sometimes, and often have realized something i have said.. was kind of dumb, and I said so. But, I have also posted seriously and intelligently in many threads. I just have to be so serious and work on, analyze, and present complex legal info all day. When on computer I tend to let go, and avoid most complex issues

##I know there are many intelligent people here, but i am not quite ready for the short bus yet. I sailed through college with a degree in Biology, i then attended law school, during which time i had a baby, and took, and passed the bar when the baby was 5 mo.. I managed an 8 year successful stay as a prosecutor in a large county, where i was able to search for, receive, present, and analyze very complex ideas... I say this because i often have trouble understanding and processing ideas, and grasping the manner in which they are presented here. I feel we communicate and relate very differently language wise. If someone is trying to tell you something in Spanish(and you don't know Spanish.. is that a problem with your intellect??

OK.. THINGS SAID

*** this quote is by unknown to me
Often people believe something is contradictory and I see it fits, as they simply did not compare equal levels. Or I very often see the weak spots in theories, see many different explanations. Sometimes I even think many others see the world in 2D and miss the third dimension.
THE RESPONSE
I know what ya mean there ..like very much first hand, It becomes frustrating when you try to explain this and some refuse to "get it". I have come to the conclusion because you are right, they "can't"...this reality simply doesn't exist...outta sight outta mmind, as my mom refers to this "condition"! I often see things in a very "connective fashion".................
.....my interpretation of this is.. unknown says.. some people often believe the contrary of what fits.. bc they have not compared equal levels.. or i can see the weak spots in these tossed out theories.. bc. they.. similar to dogs are only seeing in 2d...
.... and respoonse is 'i am very familiar with this bc its soo frustrating when you try to explain this... and the dumb dumbs.. just refuse to get what i'm saying.. and really they just can't get it because their thinking abilites are far inferior to ours... they'll never get it.'

Well, there are some things I refuse to get, but very few I can’t get. Maybe if I can’t get “it”.. it is not exactly correct, or improperly applied, or there are some ADD gaps happening, or maybe it is not being explained in an efficient manner… I don’t think any of those things should qualify anyone to hop on the short bus.

NEXT

we tend to learn from first principals (of what) the we tend to learn from first principals.. was a statement at the end of a post. I didn't really understand what it was saying.. i was thinking maybe first of principals presented by parents.. or might learn quicker from principals presented very early... anyway

RESPONSE
The first letter of the following sentence.....

"I"..........don't understand what fIrst prIncIpals Is

I am a big fan of sarcasm, and I must say this is a lovely display. First, you put the I.. And then when you say.. You don’t understand., when you come across them again you make them I’s. Very clever, and could almost qualify as a rolling of the I’s.

And, actually I do have some knowledge of that concept, but was having some language translation problems.

**** I can’t imagine that question was so completely stupid. I’m fairly certain it could not get anywhere close to the “list of stupid question”. Was it so bad that someone had to embarrass me with their professional grade sarcasm?

NEXT
Quote: again a quote from me at the very end of trying to organize thoughts.
wouldn't their be a possibility that these emotionally learned ideals could be problematic for an ADDer..
.. Not the most eloquent question, but perhaps the many lines right before this might have helped.

Man, I’m almost scared to say what I was trying to get at. Ok….I also do not do the gray area. Earlier it was mentioned that gray areas required a more complex process. I was questioning if, because ADDers had trouble learning emotionally, and morals were learned emotionally.. Could that explain why so many ADDers have the black and white code.. As it is a less complex process…

RESPONSE

????? ADDers who are known to act "impulsively" based upon "feelings" rather than for (or other) thoughts......A people known for their passion......Hmmmmm ADDers having trouble learning emotionally....

my first, second and third impressions would be
Quote:
No gray. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Gray doesn't even get to LOOK at it

…again, a superb example of knifing sarcasm… as it slowly carves BIG DUMMY on your forehead

HERE

Quote:
PS The science bit ... Google search terms:
(Thanks Tammy):

and some how you knew I would be along eventually and read this
### somewhere within here is the call for you to jump in the short bus…. Get over to this thread and put a stop to all that crazy talk.

LAST

If we never experience the emotion it never goes. grows or evolves only festers.....energy is neither created or destroyed it merely changes forms...emotional energy!!!! Hmmmm posting without meds or sleep again....

I also am very aware of this concept.. And detriments of suppressing emotions… I never believed or wanted to convey anything of the sort.. More avoid in some instances and learn to experience rationally (I’ll do the data gather.. Yada yada, and post later… sooo tired.

.. And as for your concern how my meds are working, and wondering if I’m getting enough rest.. Thank you for asking

My meds are ok, but I’m now working on 80 hours of awake. That was so thoughtful for you to remember I had told you about that before… and for you to make sure you got it out here to address your concerns.

sorry about all that. But, dang I've been shoved through the windows of the short bus so many times.. I am bruised beaten… and ticked.
Whew I need some therapy now.

meadd823

03-26-06, 03:57 AM

Iwas agreeing with you I began with "know what you mean first hand" How can that possibly be calling you stupid????

Also, I had asked several questions, which I’m certain is proper. Now, I typically don’t get offended, or my feelings hurt when other members hint something is stupid, and say this is the way it is..

Okay but applications of absolute right and wrong can not be applied by me to another persons morals....I feel I have no business judging yours (or any one else's) morals as right or wrong..

To me there is no "this is the way it is" unless I am referring to my self and my morals! My morals weather they are black white or shades of grey are right for me....not necessarily apply my definition of "right" to any one else. People assign their morals in a way that is right for them!

And whatever else. Now, next thing I know, I have the reject stamp on me, and I’m being bound, gagged , and stuffed in the short bus

I haven't a clue here why would you feel rejected and the short bus??? I fail to understand why or how you came to the conclusion any one would think that you were retarded! Because I fail to understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist ..I apologize if my wording indicated I thought this is any way I assure you this is not what is meant.

I was trying to agree with you which causes even more confusion. :confused: :confused: ..if I thought you were a candidate for the "short bus" why would I agree with you saying "I experienced this first hand"? :confused: :confused:

i like to act silly, and sarcastic sometimes, and often have realized something

Yes you do and so do, I which is why I felt you wouldn't be offended when I messed with the letters

"I"..........don't understand what fIrst prIncIpals Is

I meant it to be funny...

Like when I am walking around with my sun-glasses on top of my head looking for my sun glasses....and companion starts rubbing the top of his head in an extreme way saying “Gee I don't know”.....we both end up laughing at my “Great moment in ADD history”!

I have read some exchanges you had participated in that were much "worse", I figured it would be taken in the fun spirit it was meant in. I apologize and assure you I will not repeated the same mistake a second time.

I aint some one with a bunch of college degrees but I have an excellent long term memory!

Could that explain why so many ADDers have the black and white code.. As it is a less complex process…

I do not agree with black and white being a less “complex process”. .it is merely a moral point of view. The decision of right and wrong/ correct and incorrect still has to be made.

I have often misunderstood the meaning and intentions of what other members write, this happens in a community with people from different back grounds. If I am totally confused I will simply ask for clarification; however if I feel totally insulted I use the private message system and ask the person their intentions off public post. In my experience people are less likely to become defensive if the issue “insult” is addressed privately.

DimensionX

03-26-06, 03:59 AM

huge huge huge!!!!! misunderstanding and just for the record lettie ur not stupid in anyway possible, i'll pm u to explain!

chameleon

03-26-06, 04:15 AM

Tammy - may I smile as I point out that it the phenomenon of altered realities happened TWICE on this thread now? :D

meadd823

03-26-06, 05:05 AM

like extremely....man what a "ride"!!!!!!!

DimensionX

03-26-06, 05:18 AM

ok, i know that was a joke, but i'm not getting it...omg what is wrong with me today! christ, i feel like i'm caught in a rip tide and i'm struggling so much trying to keep my head above water but it's not enough.

chameleon

03-26-06, 05:21 AM

It wasn't a joke DX, it referred to me getting mad at meadd because I mistook Nova's quotes for hers, and Lettie getting mad at meadd because she thought meadd was referring to her.
This thread is partly about different views of the same reality, and that's happened twice here in this thread! LOL

DimensionX

03-26-06, 05:25 AM

the metaphor still stands, i really appreciate u trying to explain to me whats going on but i think it's a lost cause at the moment, i'll read it another day when i know what i'm thinking.

meadd823

03-26-06, 06:54 AM

This thread is in some temporal time shift twilight zone......

and it took us all with it YIKES!!!!!

lettie

03-26-06, 04:49 PM

Hey guys.. I am the queen of misunderstanding, but I am still confused as heck.

Often people believe something is contradictory and I see it fits, as they simply did not compare equal levels. Or I very often see the weak spots in theories, see many different explanations. Sometimes I even think many others see the world in 2D and miss the third dimension

....my belief was your agreeing, and saying you've experienced first hand was in response to this qoute, so if i'm wrong about that then i can see how things really change.

The above is not a quote from me, but someone else saying they can see holes in the theories, that can't explain to others because think 2d.

I fail to understand why or how you came to the conclusion any one would think that you were retarded! Because I fail to understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist
...ouch

I have read some exchanges you had participated in that were much "worse", I figured it would be taken in the fun spirit it was meant in

And since when in history has there exsisted a person that just bc they can dish it out... means they can take it :o

If it was intended in fun spirit I'm sorry, but that was not my impression. Maybe it was the lack of sleep. But, before I ever read your post, someone sent me a pm saying whoa..someone made tammy mad.

I feel totally insulted I use the private message system and ask the person their intentions off public post. In my experience people are less likely to become defensive if the issue “insult” is addressed privately.
...this is a very true statement, but one of my main probs is the ADD emotional overreaction... and the need for the immediate gratification retaliation.

I think i'll hang out on the short bus awhile. it drives slowly, and we never get lost. THERE'S PLENTY OF COMPANY on here. and, there's less injury if you go voluntarily.

...feel free to take a ride whenever you want. :)

meadd823

03-26-06, 08:05 PM

Often people believe something is contradictory and I see it fits, as they simply did not compare equal levels. Or I very often see the weak spots in theories, see many different explanations. Sometimes I even think many others see the world in 2D and miss the third dimension

I live on both ends of the spectrum my self. Some times I see things in this great expansive big picture while other times I can't seem to understand the simplest concept. I understand first hand what it is like to have some one explain some thing fifty different ways yet I still don't get it..... This inability in no way makes me stupid just like when some one doesn't get a concept I am explaining doesn't make them stupid....the last part is what I get tired of explaining but some simply don't "get" the fact that we all have periods where we are operating in one dimension and every one else is operating on another. Some people think if I don't think like they do and don't understand their approach I am stupid...I simply am so different or my perspective is such we seem unable to "connect" isn't a problem with mental retardation but a matter of differences in communication styles.....

Just as I am experiencing NOW!!!!

Okay and now I understand how you interpreted this and why it upset you.....I did not realize what I wrote could be seen the way you interpreted it other wise I would have worded it differently. I have ADD also and often my brain is moving faster than my fingers so I leave portions of my thought process out of my posting. I believe this is what happened.

I fail to understand why or how you came to the conclusion any one would think that you were retarded! Because I fail to understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

(your interpretation of my words)

This is the entire quote .......

I haven't a clue here why would you feel rejected and the short bus??? I fail to understand why or how you came to the conclusion any one would think that you were retarded! Because I fail to understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist ..I apologize if my wording indicated I thought this is any way I assure you this is not what is meant.

Context......... the quote you used to respond was taken out of context! The underline portion should have indicated I did not see you as retarded!

I did not write the post thinking you were retarded and did not see how you could have come to that conclusion by reading my post. Apparently you did.. what I am trying to say I accept the way you see this as insulting even though I myself do not see my post as insulting your intelligence.....ie your interpretation is a realistic as mine. ."even though I do not see it doesn't mean it does not exist (your interpretation which indicates an insult)” I write as I read in context! I have severe dyslexia. Okay ?

Right now I am beginning to feel “picked apart” Things I wrote were taken out of context to mean some thing different than my intention!

NOW if this attempt is misinterputed as some how implying an insult I don't know what to say except see you all next week. I am out of here going out of town for a week gotta to take care of some serious family matters…

I am apparently in need of a break and the universe has made sure that I will be getting one!

Bye….have fun guys!