Okay, maybe that's a stretch---this story is saying some kids taking ritalin have had hallucinations of worms and snakes and insects, oh my!

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/health/23fda.html?ex=1143781200&en=c069d8b0fbe99d4b&ei=5070&emc=eta1

I saw a post about the same article earlier this morning, and I remarked how weird it was that almost all of them saw snakes, worm and insects. What would cause the same hallucinations????
I'm dying to know! :D

yeah, it would be one thing if it were to simply cause hallucinations, but there is no reason for patients to see the same hallucinations.

the other thing that confuses me about these new warnings on hallucinations, aside from the fact that it has never been observed before and there is little evidence tying it to the use of these drugs, is that you would think that this is the kind of thing that would be noticed fairly immediately. i mean, it's one thing to warn patients to speak with their doctor immediately if they feel certain symptoms that might indicate hypertensive problems and list those symptoms, but who in their right mind wouldn't immediately call their doctor if they start having hallucinations/

on the other hand, if you had hallucinations on ritalin, presumably they wouldn't be distracting.

ba-dump-bump-ching. thank you folks, i'll be here all week

ok, after reading more about this, it actually makes a certain amount of sense. one of the few useful things about the fact that there are people who abuse amphetamines is that we get free human guinea pigs and data that would be ethically impossible to obtain otherwise.

in drug addicts who consume megadoses of amphetamines continuously, such that they remain awake for days at a time without sleep, they often present similar symptoms. specifically, there have been repeated observations of addicts believing that there are 'bugs' beneath their skin, and repeated scratching and picking at their skin in an attempt to get them out. this symptom has been observed in enough addicts that it is considered one of the hallmarks of a condition known as amphetamine psychosis. before anyone panics, amphetamine psychosis is practically unknown in patients taking medicinal doses orally under the care of their doctors, and it is seems likely that many add patients simply wouldn't experience this regardless, especially those of us for whom amphetamines are the most effective sleep aid possible.

however, it does seem that some of the hallucinations that these children are reporting are similar to the symptoms of the kinds of psychoses that have been observed in amphetamine and cocaine users. it is hard to figure out exactly why they would experience these things, but i can think of a few possibilities.

perhaps they are simply overly sensitive to these stimulants, or perhaps they have liver ensyme abnormalities that result in much higher levels of these drugs in their system or in it taking longer to be excreted. one other possibility is that the children affected might also be taking other medications which contribute to this. for instance, if these children were also taking monoamine oxidase inhibitors, i'd say this would explain everything, but i cannot imagine that any doctor with a three digit iq would prescribe ritalin with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. there are also many drugs which can inhibit liver functions or compete with methylphenidate in use of liver ensymes, and sometimes these things can be complicated and not readily obvious.

finally, there does exist the possibility that these children are misdiagnosed, and that long-term stimulant use in these children could do this. i don't know whether these could be simply normal kids who are inappropriately diagnosed, or children with bipolar disorder or some other psychiatric illness that is misdiagnosed as add.

I'm glad you'll be here all week! I won't miss a show! :D

I want to know why specifically snakes, worms and insects. Why not bats, lizards, and monsters?
What, in the human brain, is being triggered that produces the reaction of seeing specifically snakes, worms and insects???

je ne sais pas.

the most likely explanation would be that it's not a true hallucination, but rather that it produces some sort of actual physical symptom which is interpreted that way. look at the example of amphetamine addicts, where the issue isn't that it literally makes them hallucinate the bugs, but that it creates a specific physical experience that feels to the users as if there were bugs underneath their skin. they aren't all having the same hallucination, they're experiencing the same effects, and the ensuing 'hallucination' is just the most common or obvious interpretation.

for snakes and worms, one option might be that this is how the mind is perceiving the flow of blood vessels in the eyes, which might look, to a person experiencing a psychotic episode, to be worms or snakes.

i would say that it appears very likely that these children have an underlying psychotic condition, and these stimulants merely unmask it. some drugs can do this, where the drug itself isn't the cause, but simply exacerbates pre-existing imbalances. it is for this reason, for example, that people with a family history of schizophrenia should never use lsd.

Damn you're smart Hyperion!
I'm happy with your theory of why they all "see" the same thing - the physical sensations or eye veins.
I agree with your assumption that the children might have had a psychosis already.
Thanks! :D

on the other hand, if you had hallucinations on ritalin, presumably they wouldn't be distracting.

ba-dump-bump-ching. thank you folks, i'll be here all weekKa Ching! Pretty funny!!!:D

Hey, somebody changed the title of my post! I wrote, "Ritalin Causes Worms"....Hmmm...someone did not find my sensational headline funny?:)

My son had these "hallucinations" today. I was so scared. He is 9.5 and he was on the Ritalin patch for the past 6-7 months. 15mg per day. It was horrible. He is now off it, and we are going straight to a natural family physician.

The dose is not mentioned in your Post. Hmmm.

Gee, if i take too much of anything, I can probably hallucinate.

Did you know that people can hallucinate or die from Water Overdose too?

Or Sugar overdose, or Salt overdose, or Dehydration, etc.

Virtually any substance in overdose [possibly due to an inability to metabolize a chemical?] can make us hallucinate or seize, or die.

-------------

Stimulants can be psychotogenic, but it is rare.

Patches are known to have problems. Their release technology is not perfected, or goof-proof yet.

-----

I have read about big problems with other types of Patches: esp. the Duragesic patch (narcotic patch for).

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/InfoSheets/patient/fentanylPIS.htm


It is important not to get it hot, and to remove the last day's patch first, etc.

That type of sensory-tactile Hallucination is called "Formication". If the person believes they are real, and it becomes a permanent sensation and 'fixed belief", it might be termed a Delusional Parisitosis.

People abusing cocaine and speed and alcohol withdrawal and other drugs (even Dramamine/Gravol), will get it too.

I understand that Speed or cocaine users call them "Coke Bugs".

"Formic acid" is the burning stuff that biting ants release. Yikes! Formica means ANT.

I'd wonder what else contributed to cause the formication, personally. 6-7 months without consequence and suddenly this? Its not "gelling" in my mind.

Someone earlier mentioned that they are rare, but I don't beleive they are as rare as people think. Remember, drugs = money, and these companies do their best to downplay problems because they stand to lose literally BILLIONS....remember vioxx. I had delusional psychosis on adderall with NO prior or family history. I did not attempt to sue or anything, and merely found a new doctor, so no one knows about my experience. I wonder how many similar instances. Also, in adults, the stigma may prevent some people from reporting for fear of being blamed as already predisposed since this is the excuse the companies give....i know I wasn't predisposed in any way though.

I'd also like to add I was only taking 20 mg. twice a day. Fairly low dose right? I think its just a side effect some people may have, and its downplayed as being super rare, when in fact it is a possibility like all other side effects.... definitely the exception rather than the rule, but not as rare as is being claimed by the billion dollar industry (I wonder why....lol)

age has a lot to do with it. So does the ability to metabolize medications.


Some people are not very good metrabolizers and they can get by with very tiny doses (like 5 mg/day).

Also, as we get older our ability to metabolize meds decreases a bit so it can take a lot less of a med to be effective at age 45 for example than at age 10.

Docotrs are supposed to know this and watch for indication that the dose is too high and also to titrate up safely, but way too many docs just start people out on a full dose without working up to it slowly like they are supposed to.

Blame the docs and blame metabolism. Don't blame the paharmaceutical industry for this one. These things are known and it is the docs who are being careless. IMO>

ME :D

True, but I def. believe the industry tries to downplay negative experiences. I know I keep saying this, but remember vioxx!! lol.

If the industry is playing something down, then they have been mighty persistent about it, considering that Ritalin has been used for ADHD since some time in the 1950s.

True, but I def. believe the industry tries to downplay negative experiences. I know I keep saying this, but remember vioxx!! lol.

I remember vioxx, the Alamo, and to let the cat out and ??????

I remember life before the internet, cell phones, and cable TV and?????

THE POINT BEING, I have an excellent memory and ??????????

no it wouldn't be about my memory {I forgot} oh yea Adderall side effect cover up and the sightings of Elvis. . . .


Yes this negative information about Adderall is soo hard to come by It takes about 30 seconds and ability to navigate Google {spelling helps = drats}



What is the most important information I should know about Adderall?
(http://www.drugs.com/adderall.html)

What should I discuss with my doctor before taking Adderall?

Do not use Adderall if you have used an MAO inhibitor such as isocarboxazid (Marplan), tranylcypromine (Parnate), phenelzine (Nardil), rasagiline (Azilect), or selegiline (Eldepryl, Emsam) within the past 14 days. Serious, life-threatening side effects can occur if you take Adderall before the MAO inhibitor has cleared from your body.

Do not use this medication if you are allergic to Adderall or if you have:

heart disease or moderate to severe high blood pressure (hypertension);

arteriosclerosis (hardening of the arteries);

overactive thyroid;

glaucoma;

severe anxiety, tension, or agitation; or

if you have a history of drug or alcohol addiction.

Some stimulants have caused sudden death in children and adolescents with serious heart problems or congenital heart defects.

Before using Adderall, tell your doctor if you are allergic to any drugs, or if you have:

a congenital heart defect;

high blood pressure;

heart failure, heart rhythm disorder, or recent heart attack;

a personal or family history of mental illness, psychotic disorder, bipolar illness, depression, or suicide attempt;

epilepsy or other seizure disorder; or

tics (muscle twitches) or Tourette's syndrome.

If you have any of these conditions, you may not be able to use Adderall, or you may need a dosage adjustment or special tests during treatment.

FDA pregnancy category C. This medication may be harmful to an unborn baby. It could also cause premature birth, low birth weight, or withdrawal symptoms in a newborn if the mother takes Adderall during pregnancy. Tell your doctor if you are pregnant or plan to become pregnant during treatment. Adderall can pass into breast milk and may harm a nursing baby. Do not use this medication without telling your doctor if you are breast-feeding a baby.

Long-term use of Adderall can slow a child's growth. Tell your doctor if the child using this medication is not growing or gaining weight properly.

Do not give this medication to a child younger than 3 years old without the advice of a doctor.

How should I take Adderall?

Take this medication exactly as it was prescribed for you. Do not take the medication in larger amounts, or take it for longer than recommended by your doctor. Follow the directions on your prescription label.

Your doctor may occasionally change your dose to make sure you get the best results from this medication.

Take this medication with a full glass of water.
Do not take Adderall in the evening because it may cause sleep problems (insomnia).

Do not crush, chew, break, or open an extended-release capsule. Swallow the pill whole. It is specially made to release medicine slowly in the body. Breaking or opening the pill would cause too much of the drug to be released at one time.

To be sure this medication is helping your condition, your doctor will need to see you on a regular basis. Do not miss any scheduled visits to your doctor.

This medication can cause you to have unusual results with certain medical tests. Tell any doctor who treats you that you are using Adderall.

Store Adderall at room temperature away from moisture, heat, and light. Adderall is a drug of abuse and may be habit-forming. Keep track of how many pills have been used from each new bottle of this medicine. You should be aware if any person in the household is using this medicine improperly or without a prescription. Using this medication improperly can cause death or serious side effects on the heart.


What happens if I miss a dose?

Take the missed dose as soon as you remember. If it is almost time for your next dose, or if it is already evening, skip the missed dose and take the medicine the next morning. Taking this medicine late in the day can cause sleep problems. Do not take extra medicine to make up the missed dose.

What happens if I overdose?

Seek emergency medical attention if you think you have used too much of this medicine. An overdose of Adderall can be fatal.

Symptoms of a Adderall overdose include restlessness, tremor, muscle twitches, rapid breathing, confusion, hallucinations, panic, aggressiveness, unexplained muscle pain or tenderness, muscle weakness, fever or flu symptoms, and dark colored urine. These symptoms may be followed by depression and tiredness. Other overdose symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach pain, uneven heartbeats, feeling light-headed, fainting, seizure (convulsions), or coma.

What should I avoid while taking Adderall?

Adderall can cause side effects that may impair your thinking or reactions. Be careful if you drive or do anything that requires you to be awake and alert.
Do not take Adderall late in the day. A dose taken too late in the day can cause sleep problems (insomnia).

Avoid drinking fruit juices or taking vitamin C at the same time you take Adderall. These can make your body absorb less of the medicine.

What are the possible side effects of Adderall?

Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction: hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat.

Stop using Adderall and call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects:

fast, pounding, or uneven heartbeats;

feeling light-headed, fainting;

increased blood pressure (severe headache, blurred vision, trouble concentrating, chest pain, numbness, seizure); or

tremor, restlessness, hallucinations, unusual behavior, or motor tics (muscle twitches).

Continue taking Adderall and talk to your doctor if you have any of these less serious side effects:

headache or dizziness;

sleep problems (insomnia);

dry mouth or an unpleasant taste in your mouth;

diarrhea, constipation;

loss of appetite, weight loss; or

loss of interest in sex, impotence, or difficulty having an orgasm.

Side effects other than those listed here may also occur. Talk to your doctor about any side effect that seems unusual or that is especially bothersome.

What other drugs will affect Adderall?
Before taking Adderall, tell your doctor if you are using any of the following drugs:

blood pressure medications;

a diuretic (water pill);

cold or allergy medicines (antihistamines);

acetazolamide (Diamox);

chlorpromazine (Thorazine);

ethosuximide (Zarontin);

guanethidine (Ismelin);

haloperidol (Haldol);

lithium (Eskalith, Lithobid);

methenamine (Hiprex, Mandelamine, Urex);

phenytoin (Dilantin), phenobarbital (Luminal, Solfoton);

propoxyphene (Darvon, Darvocet);

reserpine;

sodium bicarbonate (Alka-Seltzer); or

antidepressants such as amitriptyline (Elavil), amoxapine (Ascendin), clomipramine (Anafranil), desipramine (Norpramin), imipramine (Tofranil), or nortriptyline (Pamelor).

***End Quote

~All bolding, underlining, and Text color changes mine~

Remember, drugs = money, and these companies do their best to downplay problems because they stand to lose literally BILLIONS....remember vioxx

Please remember to fertilize your house plants at least once a month during the growing season - oops wrong site again . . .. . .where was I :confused: oh yea we were talking about the

BIG Adderall side effect COVER UP????

{what ever :rolleyes: }

I would say they are doing a real crappy job of it wouldn't you?

:eek: That's one heluva wall of text there, sis! I reckon someone with ADHD would have a rough time reading all that in one sitting...Fortunately for me I have taken Adderall before and none of this was new information to me. Don't you think that was a prudent thing for me to do, to actually read the literature before I ingested something?

I think it was mighty smart of me, personally. ;)

Did you see that flash of glittering colors go by? wasn't that LIBERACE? :D

Don't you think that was a prudent thing for me to do, to actually read the literature before I ingested something?


Yes I think it was most prudent myself. I always read those pieces of paper the pharmacy puts in my little bag of medication The pieces of paper are normally referred as "patient information guide" or "Patent education sheet". What I posted {that wall of text} was a partial of the one I hyperlinked to. Information similar to this is included with every prescription dispensed in the US. I have been receiving one every time I have my Adderall filled for years. I know every time my pharmacy hires a new pharmacy tech because they always ask if I have taken the medication before.

When I got some anti-inflammatory medication filled a while back I have never taken the medication before so the pharmist came over and spoke to me briefly telling me how to take the medications and what serious side effects I should seek medical treatment for. Here in Texas these even come in Spanish.

This my point that if the drug companies are trying to hide the side effects of medication they are doing a crappy job of it considering every one is to get the list of possible side effects every time they get their medications and for most medication including antibotics if you have never taken it before the pharmist tells you verbally before you leave and asked to see if there are any questions.


I sure wish the bottle of 5-http I bought would have come with the same amount of possible side effect information my adderall does.

LIBERACE


possibly (http://www.liberace.org/) :p

I am afraid thats true. one of the many side affects

Okay, maybe that's a stretch---this story is saying some kids taking ritalin have had hallucinations of worms and snakes and insects, oh my!

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/health/23fda.html?ex=1143781200&en=c069d8b0fbe99d4b&ei=5070&emc=eta1

Yeah hallucinations are a very rare side effect of Ritalin but it does happen. Saying stimulants won't ever cause hallucinations is quite stupid.

True, but I def. believe the industry tries to downplay negative experiences. I know I keep saying this, but remember vioxx!! lol.
Oh yes of course they downplay the negative experiences. They're not making drugs so they can help people obviously, the bottom line is they do it to make money.

Oh yes of course they downplay the negative experiences. They're not making drugs so they can help people obviously, the bottom line is they do it to make money.Chris, I know that Tammy's post is very long, and probably very hard to read, medicated or unmedicated but please refer to this:

What should I discuss with my doctor before taking Adderall?
..........
Some stimulants have caused sudden death in children and adolescents with serious heart problems or congenital heart defects.
..........

What are the possible side effects of Adderall?
..........

Stop using Adderall and call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects:

fast, pounding, or uneven heartbeats;

feeling light-headed, fainting;

increased blood pressure (severe headache, blurred vision, trouble concentrating, chest pain, numbness, seizure); or

tremor, restlessness, hallucinations, unusual behavior, or motor tics (muscle twitches).
..........
This flyer is included with every RX for Adderall that gets filled. How is that admission "playing it down"?


They're not making drugs so they can help people obviously, the bottom line is they do it to make money.
Yes but which came first: the chicken or the egg? Do you think that the pharmaceutical companies just picked the idea to make Adderall out of the clear blue sky?

Isn't it possible that they began to make Adderall at the request of the DOCTORS, who sincerely wished to help people? Sure, they make a profit. Then again so do companies that make donuts, dog food, and toilet paper.

The pharmaceutical companies research drugs that have potential to make money for them. I'm not too sure how Adderall came about but I don't personally think that doctors would have requested it.

Oops missed that listing of hallucinations being a possible side effect. It's a huge list and I doubt very many people would read it although I make sure I do before putting something into my body. I think they could make it a little more obvious that the drug can cause hallucinations.

Most of the people I've heard of experiencing hallucinations have been pretty surprised and in one case the mother of a child on adderall thought he was just mucking around saying that he saw snakes and worms in his bed, took almost a month for the mother to realize what was going on. (stupid I know but most people tend to be stupid)

These people that don't read the booklet may be dumb but I don't think it could hurt making it a little more obvious that these drugs can cause very serious side effects. Not everyone can use Google either.

The pharmaceutical companies research drugs that have potential to make money for them. I'm not too sure how Adderall came about but I don't personally think that doctors would have requested it.Do you have any hypothesis as to where the companies got the idea that Adderall would make them money? I mean, if there were no money in it, why make it in the first place?

The pharmaceutical companies have scientists working for them that research new chemicals that are profitable. I'm not saying this is a bad thing because it's just how the world works.

Lots of drugs weren't created by companies but I suspect the slightly different types of amphetamines and their release mechanisms were.


Again, not a bad thing because we can benefit from this, but sometimes not too.

Yeah hallucinations are a very rare side effect of Ritalin but it does happen.Yeah.

Aspirin is known to cause hallucinations too.

I wonder how many doctors remind their patients of the risk of aspirin causing hallucinations? I would guess none do.

We each can, and often do respond to these drugs in very unique ways. Radical, and extreme side effects tend to occur with just about all drugs that I am aware of.

The important thing is to keep this issue in proper perspective. For example, was it a side effect experienced by a child, or the elderly? That's a very important question to answer right off the bat, because more often than not both of those groups tend to be quite prone to radical side effects that rarely occur in the majority of people taking a given drug.

Recently I read a post about someone who had a bad experience with the "natural" substance 5-HTP, which apparently is the new magic cure all for everything and is sold in health food stores and your friendly neighborhood drug store without so much as a fact sheet, never mind side effect warnings.

*Yes, I realize that I will be told that the FDA won't "approve" 5-HTP as a cure for anything, yada yada yada, but if the companies selling it are so altruistic, they might at least put a disclaimer with it stating what they do or don't know about it. I was taking it for a while. I thought it would be a good sleep aid, and I never had so much as an inkling that it might cause a psychotic episode or anything.

I used to take bee pollen. It's touted as a magic cure for lack of energy, skin problems, digestive problems, allergies, you name it. I took it for almost 3 years, religiously, never saw an iota of help from it. Then a friend told me her cousin took it and had a severe allergic reaction that caused his throat to close up or something. Very scary. Turns out he's allergic to bees, and the particular brand he bought didn't warn him that it would cause the same reaction as if he were stung. (Yeah, it's called bee pollen, but not everyone is savvy enough to realize that a product called bee pollen is actually derived from bee pollen. And some people just aren't that smart. That's why we need labels and drug fact sheets.)

Every single thing we put in our bodies can have a negative effect on us to some degree or another. Even water, as we've discussed.

And one last thought. I don't think the FDA is doing a bang up job by a long shot and I definitely think reform is necessary and some particular laws passed (some from the 90s come to mind) made them worse and not better as an organization.

I work from home at the moment doing transcription and I am under NDA (non-disclosure agreement) so I have to be very, very careful not to mention any specifics, but most of this won't be a new information to anyone. A few of the jobs I do are for a drug co doing testing,

These companies present to panels of doctors not involved with the comapny or the testing in any way, and they put the drug co through the ringer, let me tell you. The companies have to present substantial proof to doctors from some very prestigious universities and medical facilities, and that means sometimes years worth of trials get done and a drug still fails to pass muster.

It's certainly not a perfect procedure by any stretch of the imagination, but I think sometimes people get the impression that it's easy to create a drug, run some testing and get it passed by the FDA, and it's all about money passing hands. There's shady folks all over the place and I'm sure sometimes questionable practices occur, and the FDA has flat out failed the public in some cases. It's a flawed system for sure, but it's not the giant conspiracy some people proclaim it to be.

One of my relatives just got her masters degree in chemistry and wants to work creating and testing new drugs. She wants to do it to try to find cures for the things that ail people, and because she loves chemistry and trying to figure out what will work better than what's already out there. I'm sure there are others in the industry like her. Maybe I'm just too optimistic, but I don't think "it's all about the money" all the time.

Yeah.

Aspirin is known to cause hallucinations too.

I wonder how many doctors remind their patients of the risk of aspirin causing hallucinations? I would guess none do.

We each can, and often do respond to these drugs in very unique ways. Radical, and extreme side effects tend to occur with just about all drugs that I am aware of.

The important thing is to keep this issue in proper perspective. For example, was it a side effect experienced by a child, or the elderly? That's a very important question to answer right off the bat, because more often than not both of those groups tend to be quite prone to radical side effects that rarely occur in the majority of people taking a given drug.Yep It's important that we remember children are sometimes more likely to have side effects from drugs like Ritilan.

I would say Ritilan has a much higher chance of causing hallucinations compared to water and aspirin. Yep we all experience drugs differently but I think there's a trend of some children hallucinating snakes and worms on Ritilan and I just think it's important that the parents know about it. It is the doctors job to remind people about these types of things but I don't think we can always rely on doctors to give all the imformation, often they're undereducated or just don't have enough time.

*Yes, I realize that I will be told that the FDA won't "approve" 5-HTP as a cure for anything, yada yada yada, but if the companies selling it are so altruistic, they might at least put a disclaimer with it stating what they do or don't know about it. I was taking it for a while. I thought it would be a good sleep aid, and I never had so much as an inkling that it might cause a psychotic episode or anything.
Yes I believe there should be warnings on 5-HTP for sure. Any psychoactive drug like this should have warnings but I guess that's expecting too much.

Are aspirin and water psychoactive? I'm not sure but I think chemicals like Ritilan and 5-HTP effect the brain much more and should display clear warning about children(even adults) possibly having psychotic reactions.

and no I don't think the current warnings are good enough in my opinion.

I'd wonder what else contributed to cause the formication, personally. 6-7 months without consequence and suddenly this? Its not "gelling" in my mind. Look up 'amphetamine psychosis'. Usually you find this in drug abusers but it can happen with standard recommended doses of stimulants(esp. in children), it might be rare but compared to hallucinations from aspirin and water I would think it's fairly common. Hallucinations from aspirin and water are usually from overdose, with Ritilan it happen with standard recommended doses.

It can take some time for this psychosis to start effecting the person so it's not the typical immediate side effect that you might be familiar with.


Isn't it important that people are aware stimulants can cause this sort of thing?? Even if the press puts a heap of spin on it at least people will be aware and might deal with the problem better if it comes up.

Sorry for the triple post but sometimes it seems like the pro-stimulants people basically laugh at this side effect like it doesn't occur. I guess if it doesn't happen to you or someone close to you it's hard to understand how frightening it can be.

Chris the triple posting is necessitated by the fact that a probable anti-med troller bumped 3 threads at once then promptly vanished ;). I replied to you in one of the other threads though. I am too tired to type all that again!

pro-stimulants people basically laugh at this side effect like it doesn't occur. Chris, I'm about as pro-stimulant as anyone I've ever met, and I think more than any other member here. That being said, I have never laughed about something like this, nor have I ever heard anyone else here laughing at something like this either. That insinuation is an insult to those people who happen to be pro-stimulants.

Don't get me wrong, I encourage pharmacovigilance very much, and I applaud those who take a scientific approach when dedicating themselves to that area of pharmacological science. However, taking the scientific approach includes being able to understand the difference between anectdotal evidence, and statistically significant evidence as it pertains to a drugs side effects. It also includes things such as evaluating the whole risk to benefit thing too, but I digress.

Even though I have respect for those who dedicate themselves to the scientific approach of pharmacovigilance, I have little respect for "pharmacovigilantes" (if that's even a word?) who use drug hysteria to insinuate that people like myself (who are pro-stimulant) are either laughing at or pretending that such a serious negative side effect like this does not occur.

Chris, my pro-stimulant view point comes from several years of very positive personal experience with stimulant drugs, combined with my continuing education. I would suggest that you save the drug hysteria for those that it works best on; the inexperienced, and the uneducated. ;)

Lars, I meant to say some pro-stimulant people and I don't think I'm creating drug-hysteria. IF anything I just want people to be careful and I know for a fact you pay the proper respect to stimulants.


I think I'm just going to leave this subject alone from now on. My motives are good but it seems people always misunderstand what I'm trying to say. I guess what upset me was the whole comparing aspirin and water to stimulants.

So you think I'm a 'pharmacovigilante'? who uses drug hysteria? Lars, you couldn't be more wrong...I always try to take a scientific approach and I'm only trying to educate myself and others about the benefits and risks. I just sometimes think that the information about the risks is sorely lacking.

peace

So you think I'm a 'pharmacovigilante'? who uses drug hysteria? Lars, you couldn't be more wrong...I always try to take a scientific approach and I'm only trying to educate myself and others about the benefits and risks. I just sometimes think that the information about the risks is sorely lacking.

peace
I appreciate you explaining that to me Chris, especially since you had no obligation to explain yourself to me. I am also very glad that I was wrong in my assumption of you being a drug hystseric. I apologize for assuming the worst.

Please don't feel like you have to "leave this subject alone from now on" just because of me making a false assumption. Your comment appeared like something to me that it obviously was not intended to be. The important thing is that we all keep talking to each other whenever a misunderstanding like this happens so that we might be able better understand each other, like we do now. ;)

Peace, Lars

Lars, if you don't stop saying exactly what I want to say only saying it 5000 times more articulately, I am going to start to get a complex :p (kidding)

One of my grad school professors is on a committee that gets to vote new words into the dictionary (I know, awesome, isn't it???) and I swear I'm going to use pharmacovigilant next time we have lunch and see what he thinks.

Lars: "However, taking the scientific approach includes being able to understand the difference between anectdotal evidence, and statistically significant evidence as it pertains to a drugs side effects."

Chris, I responded to another post of yours with something that meant what Lars said above, only was stated in a much more babbling manner.

But I think I know where you're coming from, and if I'm reading between all the lines here correctly, I think we're all saying almost the same exact thing, but coming at it all from slightly different angles.

If your child has hallucinations from a stimulant, it is fine to post that, share the experience and ask about it (although I'm not sure that would be my first instinct. What's suspect is saying my child is having or just had this reaction. I'd be more comfortable if it were my child has this reaction, and I took him straight to the doctor and he said this... I mean, who thinks to join an internet forum when their child is in distress? After that fact, that I can see. But mid hallucination? Even Britney Spears must have more sense than that)

But, anyway, so sharing the experience, that's all well and good. My own personal objection was not the anecdotal evidence presented by one person posting in this forum or others. My issue is only with the responses that tend to follow that use the post as an excuse to push their own agendas (be it selling natural "cures." Love how people can claim there's a natural "cure" for something traditional medicine can't cure, and that the fact that we don't know about said cure is some giant conspiracy. Which really says we're all too stupid and/or lazy to know learn about it or we're all such followers that we all joined the cult of pharmacology where we live like sheep and drink blue coolaid with our stimulants.)

Granted that's a very small group, and most people I think agree that there's room for anecdotes of all kinds, good and bad. Again, so long as anecdotes remain anecdotes and the line between scientific evidence (culled through years of studies and research) and individual experience (culled from a single person's (usually) relatively short time they've taken the drug--short, in comparison to how long scientific research has been done for lots of, but not all, drugs) doesn't get blurred.

Have you had your liver function tested ?

People who do not metabolize amphetamines well can respond to remarkably tiny doses of amphetamines (and other medications too).

If your liver does not remove the medication from your blood as quickly as it normally does for most people your average dose over time will be higher.... It's possible that a "normal" 20 mg dose might be far too much for people who are not good metabolizers of medications.

This is one reason why doctors are supposed to titrate up to the standard dose from a smasll dose... but many don't do it.... so some people who are poor metabolizers could get a bit of an overdose.

This stuff is well known. I don't thnk that blaming the pharmaceutical industry for the doctors not adhering to good practice is right.... it certainly does not help address the underlying issue.

Me :D

I'd also like to add I was only taking 20 mg. twice a day. Fairly low dose right? I think its just a side effect some people may have, and its downplayed as being super rare, when in fact it is a possibility like all other side effects.... definitely the exception rather than the rule, but not as rare as is being claimed by the billion dollar industry (I wonder why....lol)

Yeah I hope no one thinks I was blaming the drug companies. I'm sure it couldn't hurt to have clearer warnings about stimulants sometimes causing hallucinations though. Doctors should always titrate up the dose but doctors are sometimes overworked or don't have all the information which is pretty hard to fix I think.

I agree with everything you say Desperate but afraid I'm a step behind you and Lars at articulating myself. It's very important to understand the difference between anectdotal evidence, and statistically significant evidence as you said. I believe the evidence in studies done has shown that roughly 5 out of 100 children will get serious side effects like hallucinations, not sure where I read this but this supports that:

"Dr. Thomas B. Newman, an epidemiologist at the University of California, San Francisco, who is a member of the pediatric advisory committee, estimated that out of 100 patients treated for a year with stimulants, 2 to 5 will suffer serious psychotic episodes like hallucinations."

"It's a small number, but it's real," said Dr. Robert M. Nelson, an intensive-care physician at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and chairman of the committee.