I read someones post on this forum a little while back that offered the idea of TV, Radio, and other Media Outputs as a cause of ADD. I thought it was interesting, so decided to cut off ALL television, radio, games, and basically everything. This was started March 20h of last month.

In the time since I stopped watching TV and other sources of entertainment, I have found the following;

Increased Memory: I have been able to remember small things that I normally forget, ex. keys, locking doors, appointments, and more.

Increased Energy: Instead of plopping down in front of the TV to watch the News, or The Simpsons - I have been reading or going outside to walk my dog, or go for runs, and more.

Increased Happiness: This is obvious, not being imformed of all the evil and wrong in this wonderful world has made me a much happier person. Instead of thinking about what I saw on the news, I think about that positive book I read the other night.

Less Talkative: This one could be my imagination because I tend to comment on a lot of things, and speak without thinking. I feel I have gotten better at this, but no evidence outside my own opinion.

More Social: Instead of sitting around watching TV silently, I have been speaking more to family members. I know more about their lives now than I ever have. This could be good or bad, they complain a lot.

There are more, but the intent of this thread is not to get analytical. It is to share with everyone that the Media Circles dont do you any good. Commercials are designed to program you to think a certian way, TV Shows are paid for by advertisers, which means more programming and showing you whats "hip".

If you want to improve your quality of life, I would say the first step is to free yourself from the Media Circles and learn to think for yourself. I dont even think about the shows I am missing anymore, I dont care. I have better things to do, and you will feel the same way.

Instead of watching your favorite show from 9-10PM pick up a book about something you want to learn, and read it! You will be glad you did.

Great post, 2BusytoThink! The less stimuli we have, or rather, the less un-necessary stimuli we have, the better off we are.

Sometimes, I'm tempted to move to the country, with no TV no traffic and a rotary dial phone with no call-waiting or voice mail.

Reading books instead of watching TV s a very good suggestion! What was that old slogan "Reading is Fundamental"! LOL! Especially ficition. It motivates one's imagination and gives the reader a main focal point.

I got rid of my TV over 10 years ago and I do not miss it a bit, for the aforementinoed reasons.

I still have ADHD, but we can't blame *everything* on tv eh ? :eek: :faint: :)


ME :D

Well, maybe it's because I'm an innattentive type and I stay home all day but I couldn't make it without some form of stimulus. Not all the time, just when I have nothing else going on. If I'm at home with the kids and don't need to be doing anything, I flip the TV on so that my attention is on something. If I don't, then I start inventing projects to do. I'll have so many projects and so much stuff pulled out that the place is a disaster area. I don't really watch the TV, it's just sort of background noise. I used to have to have the radio on when I cleaned houses for people, otherwise, my mind would wander and I wouldn't get anything done. Even at night I have to have some kind of noise to concentrate on or I stay up all night thinking about what I should be doing or could be doing or don't want to be doing.

I agree that it can suck time away if you allow yourself to get caught up in it but I also know that I did my best studying in high school and college while I was watching TV. Even while reading a book I have to have a radio or TV on in the background. Maybe that will change once I get on meds. Maybe I am just wierd.

Yeah, that's true. We can't blame everything on TV. But I sure do miss the days of just 3 channels! So many choices now! ;)

Before I was dx'd, I used to hate the show "ER" because there was 50 things going on at once, in every scene and I'd be all nervous and stressed, 5 minutes into the show. And that opening theme song! Geez!

Now, it doesn't bother me.

I will say that I do myself hate TV these days, having some time scheduled to watch stuff on DVDs makes life just a little bit more organized, and I'm certain we all could use a little bit of that. I do have things I do though without TV. I've mentioned I'm pretty big on one game called World of Warcraft, so I guess that has just taken the place of the TV for me. Books are just as bad, if I get into a good book I can find myself reading well paste the time it was to go to bed.:faint:

In the end I think by removing TV you just remove one stimulant in your life, you still will fall back on some other activity, walking the dog, reading a book, or surfing the net, even cleaning the house. I just think that TV has this cycle which never feels complete and attempts to keep you hooked for life, but I think it is far from the main source of being ADD just a place that we, or our parents, have trained ourselves to go to so that we can feel some sort of focus to our out of focus world.

In the time since I stopped watching TV and other sources of entertainment, I have found the following;

Increased Memory: I have been able to remember small things that I normally forget, ex. keys, locking doors, appointments, and more.

Increased Energy: Instead of plopping down in front of the TV to watch the News, or The Simpsons - I have been reading or going outside to walk my dog, or go for runs, and more.

Increased Happiness: This is obvious, not being imformed of all the evil and wrong in this wonderful world has made me a much happier person. Instead of thinking about what I saw on the news, I think about that positive book I read the other night.

Less Talkative: This one could be my imagination because I tend to comment on a lot of things, and speak without thinking. I feel I have gotten better at this, but no evidence outside my own opinion.

More Social: Instead of sitting around watching TV silently, I have been speaking more to family members. I know more about their lives now than I ever have. This could be good or bad, they complain a lot.
From the title of your post and the information you write in your post, I get the impression that you feel TV has contributed to your ADD symptoms.

Let me start by saying congratulations on cutting down your TV watching and increasing your activity! I do see this as evidence that life can be more full without TV. It also takes a lot of motivation and dedication to make such a big change, which is so hard for ADDers!

You mentioned that instead of watching TV, you are reading, walking the dog, or going for runs, all more intellectually and physically stimulating. Exercise leads to a more positive outlook on life. It can also increase your ability to stay alert and focus. I notice my ADHD symptoms are lessened when I exercise more, and this tends to be during the summer and school vacations when I am not teaching. I don't watch less TV, I just exercise more and do it during the day when there are not any shows I like on. What topics would you generally comment upon? Were they news related topics?

I don't want to devalue any of the improvements you have made, it sounds wonderful and I feel I need to motivate myself to be more active and turn off the TV more, I would just be careful about saying turning of the TV lessened your symptoms, there are just too many other variables.

Chloe

My post is evidence of the results I have had from the actions I took, which are made clear in the original post. I do not need to, nor should I, "be careful" about sharing my experience with other people. You seem to feel differently, but for what reason?

I did not imply that my actions are the "cure" for ADD, and they should not be taken as such. The original post is exactly what it appears to be; evidence of my symptoms being de-intensified by the activities explained. If you feel this is some type of danger for the community here at ADDForums.com then maybe you shouldent read my posts.

You should not be telling me to "beware" of sharing my ideas and experiences anymore than you should be warning people who say pepsi helps them concentrate. It all depends on the person, would you agree?

Chloe

My post is evidence of the results I have had from the actions I took, which are made clear in the original post. I do not need to, nor should I, "be careful" about sharing my experience with other people. You seem to feel differently, but for what reason?

I did not imply that my actions are the "cure" for ADD, and they should not be taken as such. The original post is exactly what it appears to be; evidence of my symptoms being de-intensified by the activities explained. If you feel this is some type of danger for the community here at ADDForums.com then maybe you shouldent read my posts.

You should not be telling me to "beware" of sharing my ideas and experiences anymore than you should be warning people who say pepsi helps them concentrate. It all depends on the person, would you agree?
No no no, I don't think anyone is saying "beware" what you are saying, its just that there are more factors then TV to ADD. Maybe that is the biggest thing in your life that you have noticed you can't seem to move away from. That doesn't mean that there aren't other factors. By leaving the TV off and going outside your doing yourself a wonderfully healthy favor, but to say it decreases your ADD symptoms might not be the best discription. I don't watch any TV unless my GF wants to because I just veg infront of them. I prefer throwing myself into groups of people be it online of off. Removing the TV hasn't taken the symptoms away, it just made some of those symptoms less prevellent (I think that is the right word) around the house, or at work.

All anyone is saying that don't consider this an instance cure to everything, you've just removed a conditional distraction that has helped you move about your day and get more done.

I apologize for offending you. Obviously, I did not interpret your post in the way you meant it to be understood, it happens and I work on being more accurate in my interpretations.

I completely agree with you that your actions can increase quality of life and aleveate ADD symptons. I think I was unclear in what you were considering the reason for the change, I had the impression you were saying it was the TV that was the cause.

Again, congratulations on making such a great change. It was not my intention to undermine that. It takes great dedication and is important for everyone.

I very rarely watch television. Maybe 30 minutes/week. Of course, I am in front of my computer like 10-12 hours a day...

I think it's great that you feel a lot better without TV.

What you write reminds me of an experiment GE (IIR) did with lighting several decades ago. They wanted to find the lighting that would make their workers the most productive. So they took a group of workers, changed the lighting, and measured their productivity.

The problem was, no matter what they did to the lighting, the productivity was improved! They would make it very very bright, or very very dim, and the workers were still more productive than they were before the experiment.

The researchers concluded that just the fact that they were being observed made the workers more productive...

my sophomore year of college, my roomate and i made a conscious decision not to have a tv in our room. there simply weren't any tv shows that we needed to watch, and big things like sporting events could be watched on the tvs in various common rooms on campus.

however, the lack of tv did not really have any effect on my symptoms. room was still a mess, deadlines were missed or forgotten, at one point my roomate accidentally threw away one of my papers because it could not be distinguished from the massive mess on my side of the room.

if television is something that is a major distraction in your life, then yeah, removing the tv will help you just as removing any distraction will. part of the strategy for add is removing distractions. however, television in and of itself is not going to make a huge difference.

Moderator moment:

Just a friendly reminder that we are all peers and our experience with being or having ADD is equal!

With so many individuals from different back grounds and perceptions some times words are written with one intent but taken by the reader in totally different way than the writer intended.

I believe this may have been what happened, thus the misunderstanding.

Use of the English language presents the same problem. Some write for individual word for word specification others are more "into" context! Please before “blasting” take a step back. A well worded tactful response or request for clarification is more meaningful to all then a “flame”.. or bunch of stuff written out of anger but offering no real knowledge!

If you have a question about exactly how a comment was meant, or do not "quiet" understand the tone of what is being said then asking for a clarification is acceptable. Should you have a question of intent of a specific person taking the matter up privately with the other person or asking for staff to assist, is a more productive option than chancing thread closures / formal warnings.

Difference happen, part of being a community with so may diverse members but hey if we were all alike then life would be sooo very boring!


Thank you!

Modertaor moment over :D

I very rarely watch television. Maybe 30 minutes/week. Of course, I am in front of my computer like 10-12 hours a day...

I think it's great that you feel a lot better without TV.

What you write reminds me of an experiment GE (IIR) did with lighting several decades ago. They wanted to find the lighting that would make their workers the most productive. So they took a group of workers, changed the lighting, and measured their productivity.

The problem was, no matter what they did to the lighting, the productivity was improved! They would make it very very bright, or very very dim, and the workers were still more productive than they were before the experiment.

The researchers concluded that just the fact that they were being observed made the workers more productive...

Good post, and I remember going over this in my intro psych class 20 years ago. If you believe that you are doing something good for yourself, things generally improve.

Turing off the television may not be the cure for ADD but it may be the #1 treatment for a number of things worse than ADD!

If you want to improve your quality of life, I would say the first step is to free yourself from the Media Circles and learn to think for yourself

yea that is the one I like best........think there may be some decent relevance to the idea presented in the quote above..

I will begin by saying up front that I know for sure my ADHD could NOT have been caused by watching too much television......it was a preventive "adaptation" in the avoidance of such.....

Never had the problem because I could never sit still before being medicated and after medications and education I saw no sense in watching television......but I do think people spend to much time in front of the television. The correlation between watching to much television and decreased mental creativity, decreased physical health is shared by others.....

Some agreement to 2Busy's ideas (http://lists.essential.org/commercial-alert/msg00009.html)
Quote***
By Mohammad N. Akhter, MD, MPH


There's also what economists call the "opportunity cost." When kids are
parked in front of the TV, they're not engaged in the activities --
running, jumping, playing--that are essential to the formation of
healthy bones and muscles which help prevent future problems and
injuries. (Even pro baseball scouts have observed that kids today have
weaker and less resilient arms because they spend so much time watching
TV instead of playing catch). When kids stare at TV, they don't use
their imaginations and create their own games. They simply absorb the
cues on how to solve problems, what to eat, what to wear, what to nag
their parents for, and most of these things are either expensive or
unhealthful or -- most likely -- both.

Their parents meanwhile, aren't just putting on the pounds. While they
watch TV, they're not talking with their kids or helping them with
homework. They aren't at the PTA meeting or involved with the
community. Even this has health consequences, since research shows that
people who volunteer more and are more involved in helping others tend
to have better health.
End Quote***

Emphasis mine

So to the initial thread started….... your idea is like nation wide!!! So a couple of folks around here disagree with you ........that happens! Part of life around other people…no need to let it be a bother…..for me it is more of an expectation.

I like it that way as I do prefer honest disagreement than dishonest agreement!

So.....how about some company 2Busy2Think...

Here is what I am referring to.

"National TV Turnoff Week (http://lists.essential.org/commercial-alert/msg00008.html)

Quote***
Following is a news release from the U.S. Surgeon General:

Office of the U.S. Surgeon General
Press Release
Contact: Damon Thompson: 202-205-1842

U.S. SURGEON GENERAL SATCHER AND AGRICULTURE UNDER SECRETARY WATKINS
ENCOURAGE PARTICIPATION IN NATIONAL TV TURNOFF WEEK

The officials announced their support of National TV Turnoff Week, April
22-28,

National TV Turnoff Week is coordinated by TV-Free America, a nonprofit,
nonpartisan organization that encourages Americans to reduce
dramatically and voluntarily the amount of television they watch, in
order to promote richer, healthier and more connected lives, families
and communities. For more information, call TVFA @ 202/887-0436.
End Quote***

I think this pretty well backs up the effects described by the initial poster.....


Feel free to challenge this as I truly don't mind....become used to it so much I now see a decent intellectual challenge as brain food and dopamine enhancer!

A number of "cures" can't hurt you and may even have some net benefit to your well being. Our tv has bunny ears and the kids don't watch more then an hour or two a week of tv because we get three stations.

Turing off the television may not be the cure for ADD but it may be the #1 treatment for a number of things worse than ADD!

I will begin by saying up front that I know for sure my ADHD could NOT have been caused by watching too much television......it was a preventive "adaptation" in the avoidance of such.....
So to the initial thread started….... your idea is like nation wide!!! So a couple of folks around here disagree with you ........that happens! Part of life around other people…no need to let it be a bother…..for me it is more of an expectation.

I like it that way as I do prefer honest disagreement than dishonest agreement!

So.....how about some company 2Busy2Think...

I think this pretty well backs up the effects described by the initial poster.....


Feel free to challenge this as I truly don't mind....become used to it so much I now see a decent intellectual challenge as brain food and dopamine enhancer!
Tammy,
I was one of the people who was disagreeing with 2busy2think, but I think you may have misinterpreted what I (I can only speak for myself) was disagreeing with. I have bolded my main points because it is a long post and I know I need the bold to focus during long posts!;)

I always have and always will agree with the fact that turning off the TV would enhance life and that watching it is a major contributor to the weight and health problems our country has. I'm a teacher and I see the effects on children first hand, they get bored outside and have no idea how to create games of their own. They would also much rather watch a movie about a book than actually read, even the children who are good readers. I also believe that some people can exhibit some symptoms of ADHD because TV contributes to a short attention span, but I do not believe that TV is a cause or even a contributor to the actual disorder of ADHD since it is a neurological disorder, not an environmental one.

I sometimes watch too much TV too, however I rarely actually "watch" TV. I usually have it on as background noise and occasionally glance up, but I can have it on all day and only actually watch about 1/2 hour of it. I do other things while it is on, for me, it is like turning on the radio, except I find that the radio plays some songs too much, so I tend to turn on the TV as background instead because they don't play the same episode of a show 20 times per day. I am usually doing work, reading, exercising, doing housework, crafts, all while the TV is on as white noise. I will say that on certain days of the week, there are shows I try to watch. However, I also DVR these shows because I end up having to rewind because I miss a lot from being distracted. I ended up missing some of my favorite shows from my difficulty focusing before I got DVR.

I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing that, in general, people watch too much TV, at least that is my interpretation of the posts that were "challenging" the original poster's idea. It was that the thread is titled "ADD symptoms reduced 22%" and he is talking about the thread discussing the idea that TV causes ADD as his motivation for trying it that I was disagreeing with. The reasons for his trial, the title of his thread, and his post talking about his reduction of ADD symptoms from not watching TV is what I was disagreeing with.

I interpreted 2busy2think's original post as supporting the idea that TV can cause ADD symptoms, and it seems like there have been a few misunderstandings on this thread (typical adders ;) :faint: ), and that is what I was disagreeing with, not the idea that life is better and healthier without TV.

I am by no means meaning this as an attack, or debate on anyone's viewpoints so please do not take it that way, I am just trying to clarify what I see as another misunderstanding. :p

re: Increased Happiness [from not watching TV]

My own perception is that TV is constantly showing us people who are thin, beautiful, independently wealthy and never have to work, who own or have access to, everything their little hearts could desire.

Despite their lives/roles being a lie (called 'acting' <G>) -- Watching this Illusion as though it were Real, leads us to find great dis-satisfaction within ourselves and our own lives.

The only people who are being served are the Actors themselves -- they are doing what they love (Acting), and earning ridiculous sums for it.

I mean, why do this to Ourselves and our Esteem? All the false messages and comparisons generated -- it's just kind of sick, no?

TV also breeds passivity. North Americans are so passive and so overweight, it's kind of mind-numbing. Take back some power...

Great posts here.

Misunderstandings can bring out the best in us.


Sooooo..... No one seems to be saying TV causes ADHD or symptoms of ADHD.

But TV may exacerbate ADHD tendencies.

Okay.


Well, being scattered as I am, if I flip the TV on and actually watch it, I will get nothing done, and feel bad afterwards. Of course, if I start tap, tapping on my laptop while watching, I forget the TV.

My wife doesn't like watching TV with me around, because I talk through the shows, groaning at the implausible, complaining about the dialogue, suggesting alternate senerios,

and sometimes debating the characters loudly (that I do during political talk shows).

TV doesn't feel so passive to me.

An observation: a friend was studying obesity among teenage girls in San Francisco.

She found that many of the overweight teens would go directly home from school, sit around watching TV alone or with a couple of friends, mom would come home later and cook or they would order take-out. No excercise. No wonder these kids were putting on weight.

They were watching too much TV!

What was not in the initial surveys: She had all these dietary and excercise qxs questions, and the usual about mood and grades. But in chatting with them she discovered the reason for their behavior and excessive TV watching:

They come home and stayed home in order to avoid the deadly violence that occurred after school. This was a low-income community, where an affordable form of recreation is cable TV, where there was not much in the way of afterschool programs.

Home was a safe, affordable place to be. These girls were making an intelligent choice, to watch too much TV.

These girls were making an intelligent choice, to watch too much TV.


Perhaps safer in the short term but not in the long run!

I do appreciate the alternate perspective because one of the researches I came across in my search on this topic was that minorities and those of low income status watched more TV,when compaired to higher incomes. More low income house hold had TV's in their children’s bedroom!

I read this study last night but choose not to use it in my last response, however I will provide a link here as it has now become relevant!

*It is in pdf. format- :eek: I hate it when people don't warn me first!*

Media Family Research thing (http://www.mediafamily.org/research/report_g_w2002.pdf)

Quote***
Parents with less education report that their children watch significantly more TV
each week than children of parents with more education. Lower-income parents report that
their children watch significantly more TV each week than children of higher-income parents.
***End Quote

Increasing the chance of becoming obese isn’t much of an alternative. Besides there are other things to do in one’s own home besides watch TV! Although an excellent point I am not in total agreement.


I lived in a poor neighborhood myself but did manage to find other activities to do! Mom left me a list of alternate activates called chores. Reading, art work, home work, phone conversations with friends, are other activates that do not involve TV but can be done in the home.

As an older child I become friends with other children in my neighborhood at school and we "paled around" in a group making it safer for us all!

Thinking further....... :rolleyes:

Also if this is case why haven’t the increase in after-school programs aimed at serving low income not made a dent in the statistics? Especially for elementary schools most cities of moderate size offer after school programs.

Low income families normally have access to spiritual or religious services, public parks in better neighborhoods, Here is an idea, how about all the lower income families collectively turn off the TV increasing social skills connect with other families and invite some law enforcement people over and learn ways of making their neighborhoods safe again…

This is a vicious cycle even using the “poverty reasoning” view! The crime keeps people from connecting to others, because they feel safer sitting on couch watching TV, which prevents these folks from actively assisting local law enforcement and each other to clean up crime in these lower income neighborhoods, which allows for MORE crime…..To many poor people glued to tube not enough people paying attention to what is going on in their environment thus allowing for the environment to remain bad….

Thread title....

It was that the thread is titled "ADD symptoms reduced 22%"


TV not the cause of ADD I do like the way Stanzen put it

But TV may exacerbate ADHD tendencies.

Apparently it exacerbates crappy neighborhoods as well as obesity!

Really it isn’t the TV either it is the excessiveness of use by our society!

To watch three favorite shows and a movie a week isn’t going to lower your children’s school performance or turn your neighborhood into a high crime area. It is watching TV from the time you walk in the front door until you fall asleep on the couch in front of it minus doing any thing productive (I do realize there is a percentage who do not actually sit and watch TV but use it for back ground noise) okay it is the excessiveness of wasted time in front of it, we are talking higher chance of all the bad stuff.

Here is a list from same pdf. source above!
Quote***
Researchers have documented numerous effects related to both the amount of media consumed and to the content of the media consumed. Many negative outcomes are correlated with increased amount of viewing television. These include lowered school performance
(Huston et al., 1992; Roberts et al., 1999; Williams, Haertel, Haertel, & Walberg, 1982),increased aggression (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995; Strasburger & Donnerstein,1999), increased obesity (Gable & Lutz, 2000; Robinson, 1999), and the prevalence ofsymptoms of psychological trauma (Singer, Slovak, Frierson, & York, 1998, cited in Cantor
& Mares, in press).


Increased amount of video game play is correlated with poorer grades (Gentile, Lynch,Linder, & Walsh, 2002). With regard to print media, the amount of reading (reading volume) contributes significantly to vocabulary, general knowledge, spelling, and verbal fluency, even
controlling for differences in intelligence and reading ability (Cunningham & Stanovich,1998). Despite the fact that reading to young children is the best predictor of later reading ability, only one-half of infants and toddlers are read to routinely (Anderson, Hiebert, Scott, & Wilkinson, 1985; Carnegie Task Force on Meeting the Needs of Young Children, 1994).
***End Quote

:p PS..If you post it we as ADDers will probably either misread it, or debate it , or become confused by it- :p

I scanned that article, interesting, but haven't looked at it in depth.

Also if this is case why haven’t the increase in after-school programs aimed at serving low income not made a dent in the statistics?

Low income families normally have access to spiritual or religious services, public parks in better neighborhoods, Here is an idea, how about all the lower income families collectively turn off the TV increasing social skills connect with other families and invite some law enforcement people over and learn ways of making their neighborhoods safe again…
Good points, I think we all should turn off our TVs and in the screaming silence we can go out and meet our neighbors and build a community.

The article you quote talks about correlations between TV viewing or video games or media absorption and some cross-sectional outcome like grades. And also mentions the inter-corrolations of the various questions they asked.

My take is that all these traits clump together in families (and may clump together in neighborhoods among families) and are not necessarily causal. High levels of TV viewing in a family goes along (clumps) with a disinterest in education and other traits.


Now, you got me thinking Steven Levitt, the economist who wrote Freakonomics. He ground through Chciago School system testing, home life and lifestyle data that followed kids for a couple of years, so he had longitudinal data, better to imply causation.

The system tested kids several years in a row to see how they were doing in school. They also had parents and teachers fill out questionaires. You could see where they were at in say 5th grade and they where they ended up in 7th grade.

For example, He analyzed the school lottery that Chicago conducted. Where parents could enter a lottery that randomly assigned a limited number of vouchers for parents to send their kid to the school of their choice.

What he found is what I would call volunteer bias, but it is more meaningful than a bias:

The kids whose parents signed up for the lottery had greater scholastic improvements than the kids whose parents didn't bother to sign them up, regardless of whether or not they received a voucher and were sent to a school of choice. He controlled for socioeconomic status and race among other things.

The kids who were given a voucher did not gain any benefit from changing schools, compared to the kids who were not granted a voucher, but whose parents applied for one. Because both groups of kids, whose parents cared enough to bother to request a voucher, improved equally!

Another example, it mattered less what the parents did, read to the kids frequently or not, vs. did they have a lot of books in the home. If they had a lot of books in the home, even if the folks did not read to the kids, those kids did better scholastically over time than the kids whose homes did not have a lot of books.

There are other examples, I'm tired and can't think of them at the moment.

His take was that who the parents were, was more important than what they specifically did with their kids, after removing socioeconomic status from the analysis.

So, there's poverty and there's poverty.

Got to sleep, up at Six.

In all fairness I will answer tired as well-lol

Clarification


So it isn't about the progress as much as the intention behind the attempt...weather or not progress happened.....?


Question

Did we loose every body else????

You guys ended up speaking lots of big words, I keep coming back to this post and reading a little more... I will come back when its time to get on my adderall for the day.