HAY GUYS YOU HAVE TO GOT TO READ THIS STORY IT IS UNBELIEVEABLE:eek:
http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/stories/2034.asap

Seems like you reference the Dore System.

When websites make extravagent claims that refute currently accepted medical knowlege, and request many thousands of dollars, watch out for Quacks.

There's no evidence that this system works. The only evidence available is Dore's own statement of a 90% success. :faint:

But that's 90% of all people who complete their entire prescribed program AND success is 'very substantial improvement in their symptoms'.

What does very substantial mean? Is that not as good as extremely substantial? Or is this guy being modest? Maybe what he really means is very, extensive, very substantial improvement.

Which symptoms, which disorder? Dyslexia or ADHD? Both?


Let's see, no real research on a method that is propriatary, and that costs 3000 pounds, and is pushed on many websites. Couple that with extravagent claims-- 90% success rate.

What i smell is a Quack!



Ok, just found an article about Dore

The author warns parents that the Dore system is costly and may not work. He's just too polite or concerned about being sued to call Dore a Quack, (gentlemen just don't namecall in Tenn.) chosing medicalese to call him a Quack.


Larry Silver M.D. (http://dyslexia.mtsu.edu/modules/articles/displayarticle.jsp?id=84)In my books and publications on controversial therapies, I define these proposed models of treatment as controversial if: {Medicalese for QUACK} (1) There is no research to support the proposed treatment; (2) The treatment approach is being commercially pushed before the research shows any support for the proposed treatment; or, (3) There is clear research evidence showing that the approach does not work; yet the approach is still advertised commercially.


The Dore approach to treating learning disabilities is, by my standards, to be considered a controversial therapy {Medicalese for QUACK}. I encourage parents to learn more than the information in their fact sheets and advertisements. Ask questions about the theory and treatment approach being proposed. This intervention is expensive and takes time. The buyer must beware. Learn before you spend your money and put your child through the program.


Now isn't interprative medical lit 101 fun? :D


The study cited by Dore:

Evaluation of an exercise-based treatment for children with reading difficulties, Reynolds, D. //Nicolson, R. I. //Hambly, H. in Dyslexia 2003

is suspect, measured many, many outcomes (inflating the statistical significance of an experiment with no power) and used only 35 kids, half of whom were presumably controls?


Save your money.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41334000/jpg/_41334628_booth203250.jpg


The Dohr system for cerebellar instaenlargationextraextrabrianage.

How odd...the link is already dead. :eyebrow:
I wonder what it said. But if it involves a girl in a sling with her feet in a toaster as the above photo suggests...I'm not interested :p

Yup, to what Stan said.

How odd...the link is already dead. :eyebrow:Funny how that happens, isn't it?


I wonder what it said. But if it involves a girl in a sling with her feet in a toaster as the above photo suggests...I'm not interested :pHey, some people pay good money to see that. :p

Hmmm?????

I have adhd plus I have a toaster....the only problem is that I wear a size 9. Will a toaster oven work if I lay it on it's side?

And I don't have a hanging sling but I am sure that my creative ADD husband can make me one if it's guaranteed to get me out of his hair for a while.

Sorry. I didn't read the article link and only looked at the picture. It may work for some people, so if it does, that is great.

But....The more I look at the picture of the poor dangling girl, I am just imagining my adhd/ocd/mood disorder son in one of those machines along with all the other kids in his special education resource class. HA HA. What a vision. :)

But....The more I look at the picture of the poor dangling girl, I am just imagining my adhd/ocd/mood disorder son in one of those machines along with all the other kids in his special education resource class. HA HA. What a vision. :)Hey, you may be onto something here. If we can put a padlock on the belt and some "cement galoshes" on the feet, it might be just what we need to get some peace and quiet. :D

have adhd plus I have a toaster....the only problem is that I wear a size 9. Will a toaster oven work if I lay it on it's side?

adhdxyz I almost fell out of my chair laughing!!! Thanks!

The more I look at the picture of the poor dangling girl, I am just imagining my adhd/ocd/mood disorder son in one of those machines along with all the other kids in his special education resource class. HA HA. What a vision

what Uminchu said!

That is HOW it cures ADD...and allows parents to catch up on house work....

I just got a visual of Gary Mr. I anit got no ADHD..bounce bounce in one of those contraptions!!!

Hey, some people pay good money to see that


Non-ADDers way to get hyper messy spouses to quit making messes with half finished projects strode out all over yard....

Think they got father / son models? How about one large enough to fit brothers(Sorry guys-I happened to have one of those obstical front yard men)The only thing worse than an unmediated ADHD hyper man tripping over his stuff in denial is when Mr. Aint got no ADD has visiting equally messy hyper brother Mr Aint got ADD either..... (oh brother)

I don't have a toaster but I do have a microwave oven. Also, I have been known to get my butt in a sling now and then.

Maybe I should put up a web site promoting the latest fad therapy ?

ME :D

LOL...you guys are funny..did anyone else notice it was a page from AUSTRALIA

Just keep these coming, its entertaining. Too bad there aren't that many entreprenuers out there devising such in depth cures as this.

I don't have a toaster but I do have a microwave oven. Also, I have been known to get my butt in a sling now and then.

Maybe I should put up a web site promoting the latest fad therapy ?

ME :D

that is sticking head in microwave you might as well use a cell phone same frequences

It is worth noting that instense physical execrcise has been touted as sometimes giving short-term relief to adhd symptoms.... (lol, wear the kid out ahd he/she is gonna nap , and NOT be zooming around the house).

Also, physical excercise in the form of a trampoline has been good for some kids with sensory integration problems (pdd ??). Some parents have refinished entire rooms to allow their SID child to endulge in the kind of massive physical stimulation needed to calm him/her down. So it would seem that the Dore system is only mostly bogus....

ME :D

Where can I get one of those things!!


Aleast I could get something done around the house if I could hook up my daughter to it. I wonder if I could modify it to incorporate a gag too! Just think I could then have peace and quiet!!! lol :D

Okay, I tried it.
Last night I attached a baby jumping seat to the door frame and layed the a microwave on the floor below it.
I crammed my *** into the seat and stuck me feet into the microwave and....what do you know! -

I did notice marked improvement in my attention deficit! - I was completely focused on my current position.
My hyperactivity was brought to a dead halt as well! - it hurt to move.

I highly recommend it to all ADDers!

I had to get out of it to type this and can already feel my ADHD taking hold again.
Back in I go!

Alright you guys i get it its crap

Alright you guys i get it its crap

only if you define it as it

Last night I attached a baby jumping seat to the door frame and layed the a microwave on the floor below it.
I crammed my a*s into the seat and stuck me feet into the microwave and....what do you know! -

I did notice marked improvement in my attention deficit! - I was completely focused on my current position.
My hyperactivity was brought to a dead halt as well! - it hurt to move.

you know, in some cities you can just pay certain professionals to do that for you.

this was, incidentally, my first reaction to that picture, it's like if you combine a certain type of, ummm, adult rigging, and a jungle gym

you know, in some cities you can just pay certain professionals to do that for you.

this was, incidentally, my first reaction to that picture, it's like if you combine a certain type of, ummm, adult rigging, and a jungle gym

My initial response too. Was tempted to doctor the image a bit. Could've gone either way with that one: pleasure, torture. But that would have been sick.

Won't catch me acting sick. Nor encased in cattle hide suspended from a swing, with my feet sticking out of a box filled with chopped liver, toast or microwaves. :o

But really, Uminchu was almost, not quite the first perv in todays lineup. Hey, some people pay good money to see that.
That distinction goes to Chameleon: :D

But if it involves a girl in a sling with her feet in a toaster as the above photo suggests...I'm not interested
You all doth protest too much. :rolleyes:

If you set the microwave to DEFROST, it will cure hemrrhoids and gout too. :p

(not only that, it will probably cure you of having feet)

Me :D


Okay, I tried it.
Last night I attached a baby jumping seat to the door frame and layed the a microwave on the floor below it.
I crammed my a*s into the seat and stuck me feet into the microwave and....what do you know! -

I did notice marked improvement in my attention deficit! - I was completely focused on my current position.
My hyperactivity was brought to a dead halt as well! - it hurt to move.

I highly recommend it to all ADDers!

I had to get out of it to type this and can already feel my ADHD taking hold again.
Back in I go!

This was the most 'effed' up picture I've seen in a while..and the funniest in the same sense. I have to bite my tongue to refrain from saying something lewd about the picture, LOL !!!


WHO buys this crapola, again ? I mean the gadgets and the ideology that they work ???

My guess is tha t they are targeting desparate parents who would do anything to help their kid "get well". I think also they are going to pounce on the ignorant and uninformed; like a cat on a mouse.

It ought to be a serious crime to try to exploit desperate people like that.
On the books... it is, but you never see anyone going to jail for it.

ME :D



This was the most 'effed' up picture I've seen in a while..and the funniest in the same sense. I have to bite my tongue to refrain from saying something lewd about the picture, LOL !!!


WHO buys this crapola, again ? I mean the gadgets and the ideology that they work ???

Alright you guys i get it its crap
Don't take it personally. It's an ADD tangent and happens on here a LOT! :faint:

Keep posting, can't say we aren't honest. :rolleyes:

I love these off-tangent threads...it's one way to be light-hearted about it all, and it makes people laugh...It's good the link was posted though, in case it may work..thanks to the original poster (Raspberrymum?)

Well, well it is good to see that I am not the only one skeptical with the so called alternative treatments of ADHD. Mind you that has not stopped by dabbling in them, I just might get that sling thing for me and my eldest boy then we wouldn't be able to zoom around because of the pain! This would make my husband happy!

I am very suspicious when something sounds to good to be true and costs heaps of money - I believe Dore costs around $4,500 per annum; now if it was free I might well consider it.

Janep

It's an ADD tangent and happens on here a LOT!


ADD??? where???? NOT here-lol


Hmmm found this little dittie

here (http://www.myomancy.com/dore_achievement_centres/index.html)

Quote***
Its the results from a Yahoo search on the term British Dyslexia Association (BDA) and the first of the results, in the light grey box, is an advert. By the way is says 'British Dyslexia Association' in big letters you might think that its an advert for the BDA. Look closer and you will see its an advert for Dore / DDAT.
Thats right. Dore is trying to trick people into clicking the link to his company.
This is an appalling piece of deceptive advertising and for Dore to take advantage of people in such a manner is an abuse of his company's wealth. It is also, I believe, illegeal under UK law. Dore have been in trouble over advertising before but
End Quote***

Now there is a yahoo screen they are using as an example do any of you guys have big enough screens or good enough eyes to see the example?....

Judging by the words which are above and I was able to see Hmmm this guys has been in trouble for false advertising!!!! Gee wonder why?

Perhaps this Dore guy is applying his talents toward the wrong "profession"- :p

Hey, some people pay good money to see that

Well that is all I have to say about that - guideline thing- readers have to simply rely on their ADD imagination from here! :rolleyes:


Alright you guys i get it its crap

I wouldn't necessarily say that. It has provided some pretty good visuals!


Last night I attached a baby jumping seat to the door frame and layed the a microwave on the floor below it.
I crammed my a*s into the seat and stuck me feet into the microwave and....what do you know! -

I did notice marked improvement in my attention deficit! - I was completely focused on my current position.
My hyperactivity was brought to a dead halt as well! - it hurt to move.

This thread about Dore's treatment has been a benefit to us as an ADD community already, however I don't not think the benefit we experienced was the one Dore intended! Must be the ADD factor! ;)

With Easter right around the corner, my entire "adhd in denial" family will be gathering, right after we go to visit my husbands "add in denial" family.

I think I'll put my add husband and adhd son to work on a project. It will be called the "ADD/ADHD In Denial Bungee Jumper". This way, when everyone says that they don't have add/adhd symptoms (like Meadd823's family), they can all get in the slings. When they get out of the slings, their symptoms will return (like Chameleon experienced).

I will tell both sides of the family to each bring a toaster. (They will think that we are having a "toast off contest")...but more than likely, they will all forget to bring one so I will bring my toaster.) :)

If you would like to place an order for an "ADD/ADHD in Denial Bungee Jumper", please call 1-800-Iaintgotadd.

If you would like to place an order for an "ADD/ADHD in Denial Bungee Jumper", please call 1-800-Iaintgotadd.


Like totally love it!!!!!

So far we have lots of cords simply no toasters!!!

Okay, so I HAD to look up the Dore 2003 study. It still amazes me what peer reviews will let by!

Of course, I think this journal might be just a teensy bit biased, because this study is positively AWEFUL!


"It is important to note the strengths and limitations of this design. A fully controlled design would ensure that the control group undertook an additional activity, equivalent in duration to the DDAT exercises, daily at home. However, it is difficult to envisage just what such an activity would entail given the need for 180 separate parent-administered sessions over the 6 months. It would be particularly problematic on ethical grounds to ask control group parents to supervise activities that were not likely to be of benefit. In our view it was much more likely that such an activity would lead to harmful effects of boredom and alienation, thereby artificially inflating any positive effects found for the DDAT group. Overall, therefore, we considered but rejected this possibility. The strength of this study’s design is that it assesses the predicted’value-added’ by the DDAT treatment. Both groups have exactly the same support regime within the school. The only difference is that, in addition, the DDAT group have the DDAT exercise support. This design corresponds directly to the likely use of the DDAT treatment (where it is undertaken in parallel with normal school support). Any difference between the DDAT group performance and the control group performance therefore corresponds to the ‘value added’ by the treatment. From a parental perspective this is the critical issue."
Aside from OBVIOUS placebo effects, this statement is ludicrous.

The whole point of an alternative exercise is to avoid the possibility that ANY attention will help. Example: the studies for "the Phonics Game" show improvement compared to controls. However, the kids playing the phonics game are getting attention from parents working for hours with them on reading-related activities. It's not possible to compare ANY treatment with NO treatment and conclude that the treatment works. They can only be logically compared with OTHER treatments or placebos.

They complain that it's hard to get parents to engage in an activity, but that's exactly what they are doing in the experimental group! It's no different for the control group. If parents in the experimental group are willing, but those in the control group are not, the results are USELESS.

This could easily be remedied by keeping the parents and students BLIND to which activities were designed to treat and which were not. You can't tell me the parent is going to GUESS that strapping their kid into a harness is the actual treatment!

NEXT PROBLEM: "The school administered NFER reading tests annually as part of its normal performance management system. These were not accessed by the research team, but when analysed later indicated a slight imbalance between the groups. The intervention group had a mean reading delay of 10.6 months (range 33 months delay to 6 months ahead) whereas the control group had a reading delay of 4.4 months (range 45 months delay to 22 months ahead)."
These groups were NOT equivalent going in! Even though the mean delay is less in the control group, look at the RANGE!! This is a SERIOUS problem.



"Nine participants had an external diagnosis of dyslexia (4 in the exercise group, 2 in controls), dyspraxia (1 in each group) or ADHD (1 control). Twelve participants (7 in the intervention group, 5 in the control group) were withdrawn from two lessons per week for small group support."
The differences between these groups seem very small, but they are not trivial when the sample size itself is only 35.

The Dore treatment itself involves repeated literacy tests. Testing is one of the most common forms of experimental confound. People LEARN by being TESTED. A SIMPLE way of testing this method more fairly would have been to test the control group using the literacy tests without the "cerebral & vestibular" exercises.

Then, as mentioned previously, the analysis is seriously screwed up.

Not only did they do multiple comparisons, inflating the alpha level CONSIDERABLY, they compared the WRONG things.

They reported improvement pre vs. post for the experimental group, but not for the control group.

This is NOT the same as comparing the experimental group WITH the control group. When they compare the experimental to control, there were no real differences in improvement between the groups because they reported SEVERAL comparisons as significant that ARE NOT by the usual scientific standards. A p-value of .1 is NOT acceptable as a difference. The only test that reached the acceptable .05 was saccade accuracy, however, as I mentioned, .05 is not acceptable for the number of tests that they conducted.

For everything, they compared pretest to posttest. For this reason, the control group is NOT compared to the experimental group, making this a one-group pretest/postest design, which is worthless. This is the typical design used by pseudoscientific studies.

They ran additional analysis with group as an independent variable and claimed that interactions would be evidence that the groups differed, but the main effect would be evidence the groups differed, NOT an interaction! Since there was no main effect of group, they had to rely on this little lie.

Also, they only claim the interaction using a 1-tailed test (which you CANNOT do for the analysis they ran, nor can you make a directional hypothesis about) that does not meet the standard criteria.

Here's some of the results with what I'm referring to bolded:
"Three out of four improvements for the DDAT group were significant [t(17)=5.87, p<0.0001; t(8)=1.11, NS; t(8)=4.83, p<0.01; t(8)=2.68, p<0.05 for posturography, visual tracking, saccade accuracy and saccade latency resp.]. There were no significant improvements for the control group. A two factor analysis of variance was undertaken to allow the relative improvements for the DDAT group and the control group to be compared directly. The missing data on post-test seriously weakens the statistical power of the tests. Nonetheless there was a significant interaction [1 tailed], indicating greater improvement for the DDAT group than controls, for all four tests: [F(1,24)=3.02,p<0.10; F(1,8)=4.14, p<0.10; F(1,8)=10.39, p<0.05, F(1,8)=5.13, p<0.10] for posturography, visual tracking, saccade accuracy and saccade latency respectively."
Despite no activity for the control group, both groups improved in risk quotient! And these differences are quite substantial -- VERY low p-values! "In terms of overall DST at risk quotient, there was a noticeable reduction for both groups. The DDAT group decreased from mean 0.74 to 0.39 and the control group decreased from 0.72 to 0.44. Both these changes are highly significant [t(17)=4.97,p<0.0001; t(16)=4.09, p<0.001 resp.]. Incidence of ‘risk’ on the DST also decreased substantially. For the DDAT group, incidence of strong risk (ARQ50.9) fell from 33 to 11% and incidence of at least mild risk (ARQ50.6) fell from 56 to 33%. For the control group the corresponding figures are 35 to 24% and 53 to 29%, resp."The addition of a control group in this study is purely cosmetic.

But all those efforts make no sense anyway because the results are NOT significant by scientific standards.

This study demonstrates unequivocally that Dore does NOT work.

So what are you telling me Barbyma!!!?!!!!!!? :mad: :mad: :mad:
Does this mean that the women dangling from the grownup Jollyjumper with her feet in the toaster, is wasting her time?!??!!!!

So what are you telling me Barbyma!!!?!!!!!!? :mad: :mad: :mad:
Does this mean that the women dangling from the grownup Jollyjumper with her feet in the toaster, is wasting her time?!??!!!!Oh, no no no! I'm sure she's been cured of her sinusitis!:D

Oh, no no no! I'm sure she's been cured of her sinusitis

Okay but wouldn't it require her to be upside down.......or would that be hanging the toaster up[side down!!!!! :rolleyes:



This could easily be remedied by keeping the parents and students BLIND to which activities were designed to treat and which were not. You can't tell me the parent is going to GUESS that strapping their kid into a harness is the actual treatment!

Okay the first thing that comes to mind is.............

If truth is stranger than fiction then cons-are stranger than truth!!!

To think I took the boring straight forward way........medications, reading and harassing you guys!!! What is wrong with me I could have been hanging from a folly jumper, with my feet in a toaster...if my sinus begin to act up I could invert my self or the toaster.....only one problem I see here is the.....


VERY low p-values

:eek: I see what you mean here as I think getting one of those things into my bathroom would be problem for me as well !! :p

Oh, no no no! I'm sure she's been cured of her sinusitis!
Hey, where's the evidence for that! :D

I think her sinusitis was cured by the placebo effect.

As for the Dohr article, if it were more coherent, it might be almost as funny as the photo, and a good one for publication in the Onion.

But really now, look at the contraption, read the hype, do you expect anything more from a publication on the revolutionary topic?

I see what you mean here as I think getting one of those things into my bathroom would be problem for me as well !
Indeed, I think you see the value of a good p!

Maybe that's why the kid looks so distressed. Ah, there's it is, the multi-midnight brainstorm: holding it in alleviates ADD!

And the proof! Normal non-ADDers tend to jump around manically when they try to hold back. But holding back calms ADDers down!

:D ROLF..you guys are certainly very entertaining:D

And the proof! Normal non-ADDers tend to jump around manically when they try to hold back. But holding back calms ADDers down!:D ROTFL! :D

I was going to say something along those lines, adhdxyz..except I don't have kiddies, and the thought of seeing anyone dangling from that contraption...well..that's why I originally stated 'I was going to make a lewd comment..'.. LMAO !!!

Because the blurt out of my 'OC' mouth would be something that I STILL can't say on here. LMAO again !!!

Nova


Hmmm?????

I have adhd plus I have a toaster....the only problem is that I wear a size 9. Will a toaster oven work if I lay it on it's side?

And I don't have a hanging sling but I am sure that my creative ADD husband can make me one if it's guaranteed to get me out of his hair for a while.

But....The more I look at the picture of the poor dangling girl, I am just imagining my adhd/ocd/mood disorder son in one of those machines along with all the other kids in his special education resource class. HA HA. What a vision. :)

For all of you who have placed your orders for a "ADD/ADHD In Denial Bungee Jumper" by calling 1-800-iaintgotadd, I am sorry but there are no cancellations or returns.

Perhaps you can dissemble the contraption and sell it piece by piece on ebay. (That is, if you were able to assemble it to begin with.) Since all the buyers were add/adhd, we didn't send any instructions because we knew you wouldn't read them anyway.)

Sorry guys but you are talking crap and I have the evidence right in front of my eyes my son David who has improved in so many ways using the Dore program and I knwo of many more at my centre in the UK........Just looking at your coments here I can see you do not understand with regards to some of the research

My hustband contacted one of the Schools where the first research was completed and found out a lot of info before we signed up.....you didnt point out that the research was independant adminsitered by the BDA and one of the researchers from either Exeter or Sheffield Universitys was a UK goverment adviser.......The head of the school who has 30 years expereince says he hasn't seen anything like it and that 3 of the children were statemented in the UK that entitles them to full time help in school, they were 8 when they went on the prog and by the time they were 11 they needed no learning support at all......try telling them its not working...

There is none so blind as he who will not see......

Maggie, you are entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

L.M.A.O

I sent off for a disc from Dore, I didn't think much to it, then i recieved a phone call asking me what i thought. I did say that i couldn't understand how dore was going to help adhd without medication (in severe cases) especially.

I never heard back from them, even though they said they would call back.


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41334000/jpg/_41334628_booth203250.jpg

I'm wondering how the hell do you get to the shops in that? lol

There is none so blind as he who will not see......This is quite an interesting statement given the rest of your post.

All of the evidence supports the fact that Dore is bunk. (my post above explains)

Ignoring this evidence if very much like refusing to see the rattlesnake in front of you, even after it bites you in the ***.

Indeed, none are so blind as those who will not see...

Just looking at your coments here I can see you do not understand with regards to some of the research
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, ut you should know that several of us actually make a living dealing with medical research, we read stuff like this every day. Really, the main reason why I'm up at this hour is to make some edits to some Medicare stuff and then pull a few things together for an upcoming conference on clinical practice guidelines (not related to the ADD field, though).

This is not to say that anyone here is always right, which would e impossile anyways since there's often disagreement over some fairly esoteric scientific point all the time. If you disagree with someone's assessment of the research, that's fair. Hell, I do that all the time, and I'm often less than polite aout it. When you say that we don't understand medical research, on the other hand, that's just amusing. Sorry, I can't even get angry at it, I just have to laugh.

My husband contacted one of the Schools where the first research was completed and found out a lot of info before we signed up.....you didn’t point out that the research was independent administered by the BDA and one of the researchers from either Exeter or Sheffield Universitys was a UK government adviser.......

Maggie I do understand how our views maybe upsetting for you….I am glad your children got better and no longer need special help.

In your post you site there is evidence of this working for ADD, like research?. Perhaps a look at those studies (the long form please, with all the medical jargon preferred) would change our minds…

Just looking at your coments here I can see you do not understand with regards to some of the research

We have a few folks who do research and statistic type stuff as a hobby even one or two around here who make a living doing studies and crunching statistical numbers…convince them and you may have advocates instead of advisories talking “noise” !

I know these research type around here. They gotta see the actual scienctific studies themselves, how they were done, numbers with p= some decimal number....See the actual research and studies is the only way to convence them this is not "bunk".....so if you have some studies we would like to see those so we will know what you do.

Not to point any fingers at dr.hallowell.. I was reading delivered from distraction, and he talks about the dore method very positively, in a whole section. But he is very honest and admits he works for them, and that there is no conclusive scientific evidence :D

he talks about the dore method very positively, in a whole section. But he is very honest and admits he works for them, and that there is no conclusive scientific evidence

Barb addressed this in another thread.....actually Scattered began the thread and Barb brought up the Dore system......but my point here is one can get posative results from a "placebo" effect. Would hyper link ya but have to go to work in a minute....Barb and Hyper are saying they are not aware of any signficient scientific studies concluding this system is a valid treatment of ADD.........according to thier scources the Dore system is "bunk"............like Cham mentioned earlier if my body was in one of these things I would definantly have improved focus......ie I am strapped to a jumping Jim......I am saying the only way to convience most here is to show the actual studies.............studies of a scientific nature.................you can say some thing works and it may actually work for you how ever there is a difference between a method that works and one that is scientificially proven to do so.........as much as I hate to admit it Barb and Hyper do have a valid point going on.............they aren't trying to be mean they are trying to prevent people from being "taken".........sorry about spelling but have to go out the door no edit time........

Yeah. In my most recent employment, "evidence-based medicine" is mentioned every day. This is true in just about any medical field. When you're dealing with real people, when you have real lives on the line, you don't play around with "oh, I heard someone say once that this might have worked for his friend's half-cousin's wife."

Real doctors who mess around like that face real lawsuits filed by really ****ed off family members.

We have a few folks who do research and statistic type stuff as a hobby even one or two around here who make a living doing studies and crunching statistical numbers…convince them and you may have advocates instead of advisories talking “noise” !Some of us actually study attention, so we're very familiar with what's out there.

It's not simply a matter of shutting out ideas; research methods are a way of life.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41334000/jpg/_41334628_booth203250.jpg

I look at this girl and a whole dramatic scene unfolds in my mind....

She looks forelorn, she knows if she doesn't talk, they will flood the room with water and then depress the "toaster". She will scream, "no not the water". And at the end of the day, they will pull her up by the harness as she confesses at the last moment. :)

Yeah. In my most recent employment, "evidence-based medicine" is mentioned every day.

Okay here is one that does this scientific stuff for a living




When you're dealing with real people, when you have real lives on the line, you don't play around

You are preaching to the choir here I am actually the one “in the trenches” right next to people referred to as patients. So now we are talking “my territory”… I have to “bet my license” on your guys ability okay! So there is more than the patients life you are having an effect upon ! I do in rrreality understand, apparently more than I let on.




Real doctors who mess around like that face real lawsuits filed by really ****ed off family members.

Gee if they would only sue doctors my life would be less scary! :eyebrow:


Can I rewind here for a minute.

It began with ………


Sorry guys but you are talking crap


then me..


Originally Posted by meadd823
We have a few folks who do research and statistic type stuff as a hobby even one or two around here who make a living doing studies and crunching statistical numbers…convince them and you may have advocates instead of advisories talking “noise” !



I am trying to “play nice” and be respectful to all. :eek:

So write the day on a calendar who knows when it will happen again- :p (sorry I am still meadd823)


Any way……….
Maggie obviously had a son helped by this Dore system, and seems a bit offended by the over all opinion here. I was telling her the only way she could convince you guys differently ... is if you saw real scientific research that showed evidence that the Dore system did actually work. If there is such a thing then you would advocate it as a treatment and not be talking “C” word (not my word) I was trying to ask nicely if she had access to the studies she refers to in her post.

Please refer to the parts of a previous post here on this thread I wrote today before I ran out the door to go to work. The original is post #45..I now have time to correct more of the spelling and clean up my words a bit…….


Barb and Hyper are saying they are not aware of any significant scientific studies concluding this system is a valid treatment of ADD.........

according to their sources the Dore system is "bunk

I am saying the only way to convince most here is to show the actual studies.............studies of a scientific nature.................

you can say some thing works and it may actually work for you how ever there is a difference between a method that works and one that is scientifically proven to do so.........

as much as I hate to admit it Barb and Hyper do have a valid point going on.............

they aren't trying to be mean they are trying to prevent people from being "taken"..


Perhaps my writing was so bad this afternoon these words got missed.

BTW. .Here is the other one who makes a living doing research stuff….


Some of us actually study attention, so we're very familiar with what's out there.

It's not simply a matter of shutting out ideas; research methods are a way of life.


I know. .apparently more than I let on or I am given credit for. (shrug)

Ummm, Meadd, I was trying to underscore your point by mentioning the real-world consequences that were involved. My post was directed towards Maggie.

Hello, I am new here, researching the Dore program. FYI: the photo you have posted of the girl in the contraption, that is called "computerized dynamic postuography" Here is a link to the company's website. It is also used in the Mayo Clinic Neurology Departments.

http://www.onbalance.com/program/role/cdp/index.aspx

I looked over their list of published studies. Almost all of them were for some form of movement disorder, which makes sense. I don't know if this contraption would help with those disorders, but at least there's a rational connection between those disorders and what this thing does. One could come up with a decent hypothesis that could explain how a machine that affects ones ability to move might have some use in diagnosing or treating a movement disorder. Like I said, I don't know whether it would actually be effective for this, just that it makes a lot more sense than as an ADD treatment.

They did not list any studies linking it to treatment for ADHD, nor did they even mention that it could be used to treat that condition. Using that wesite's own "search" function, there were zero results for "ADHD." So yeah, it might be useful for treating certain completely unrelated conditions, but that company makes no claims whatsoever that it could be used to treat ADHD, and offers no literature showing that it would do so, even though one would expect them to list any piece of favorable literature that they could find regarding their treatment.

I should have clarified, the posturography does not treat anything, probably why you could not find anything. It is used for testing and evaluating.


Balance Test (Posturography):
This test evaluates input from the main senses used by the cerebellum to control balance and movement. "It does this by isolating input from the somatosensory (the feelings transmitted through the feet, joints, and muscles), the vestibular (inner ear balance organ), and the visual systems. Special equipment designed for DORE programme is used for this assessment." (From Dore's website)

My son has started the Dore program, and I've done a lot of research on this because it is very costly. I don't want to jump in as a new person and come across defensive, however I'm saddened to see the bashing on this thread by posters who don't really seem to know much about the program. The use of postuogralphy testing is very interesting and the findings and links to the vestibular system and learning difficluties is as well.

If you do a search engine search with postuography and "ADHD", "Dsylexia" etc, you will find more information on posutogrpahy's uses to evaulate learning issues.

Here is another science article, unrelated to Dore, and the use of postuography testing in learning difficluties that you might find interesting and informative.

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1262755

It's a known fact that those with ADHD are more clumsy.
From Russell Barkley's website.

Motor Incoordination

As a group, as many as 60 percent of ADHD, compared to up to 35 percent of normal children, may have poor motor coordination or developmental coordination disorder (Barkley, DuPaul, & McMurray, 1990; Hartsough & Lambert, 1985; Kadesjo & Gillberg, 1999; Szatmari et al., 1989b; Stewart et al., 1966). Neurological examinations for "soft" signs related to motor coordination and motor overflow movements find ADHD children to demonstrate more such signs as well as generally sluggish gross motor movements than control children, including those with purely learning disabilities (Carte, Nigg, & Hinshaw, 1996; Denckla & Rudel, 1978; Denckla, Rudel, Chapman, & Krieger, 1985; McMahon & Greenberg, 1977; Shaywitz & Shaywitz, 1985; Werry et al., 1972). These overflow movements have been interpreted as indicators of delayed development of motor inhibition (Denckla et al., 1985).

Studies using tests of fine motor coordination, such as balance, fine motor gestures, electronic or paper-and-pencil mazes, and pursuit tracking often find children with ADHD to be less coordinated in these actions (Hoy et al., 1978; Mariani & Barkley, 1997; McMahon & Greenberg, 1977; Moffitt, 1990; Shaywitz & Shaywitz, 1985; Ullman et al., 1978). Simple motor speed, as measured by finger-tapping rate or grooved pegboard tests, does not seem to be as affected in ADHD as is the execution of complex, coordinated sequences of motor movements (Barkley, Murphy, & Kwasnik, 1996a; Breen, 1989; Grodzinsky & Diamond, 1992; Mariani & Barkley, 1997; Marcotte & Stern, 1997; Seidman et al., 1995, 1996). The bulk of the available evidence, therefore, supports the existence of deficits in motor control, particularly when motor sequences must be performed, in those with ADHD.

Having said that, if your child is clumsy it's pretty obvious. If you want to measure the degree of clumsiness, in my part of the world you could send them to occupational therapist for free, who would then have some tests to do. This process would be important to document need. As a parent you may want ask for grants for a laptop for a ADHD student who has poor handwriting.

You wouldn't need this contraption in that process. If occupational therapists felt the need to buy DORE for an assessment tool, I'm sure they will buy it over time. But that is a far cry from what the title of the thread suggested the DORE could do. Oh My You Guys There Is A Cure For Add!!! And I Am Not Kidding Us ADHDers have been subjected to countless "cures" from well meaning folks and hustlers. Now that is offensive, to try and sell a cure that doesn't work to someone who has an impairment. Sure, we have bashed and although it may not be polite, it certainly is justified. It's was also the quickest way to end the original sales pitch.

This test evaluates input from the main senses used by the cerebellum to control balance and movement. "It does this by isolating input from the somatosensory (the feelings transmitted through the feet, joints, and muscles), the vestibular (inner ear balance organ), and the visual systems. Special equipment designed for DORE programme is used for this assessment." (From Dore's website) Isolate input into what? I'd like to know specifically what they're saying, but given that statement it doesn't seem that anything that would remotely resemble "isolating input from the somatosensory....systems" is possible using that equipment and method.

I'm saddened to see the bashing on this thread by posters who don't really seem to know much about the program. The use of postuogralphy testing is very interesting and the findings and links to the vestibular system and learning difficluties is as well.
Speaking only for myself, I may not be as familiar with the Dore method as you, but I am considered an expert in research methods (specifically those that explore psychological and neurolgical questions).

The claims made are not only not supported by valid research, they are framed to fool the layperson into thinking that they are.




If you do a search engine search with postuography and "ADHD", "Dsylexia" etc, you will find more information on posutogrpahy's uses to evaulate learning issues.
Along with a plethora of other scams.


I'm honestly very sorry if you feel attacked or offended in any way.


My comments on the forums are not meant to offend or upset, nor are they intended to make you feel duped. They are meant to save people just like you the money, energy, and hope that could better be spent elsewhere.


I don't expect people to spend 5 years getting a specific degree just so they can learn how to evaluate the most esoteric literature, but if nobody translates this literature into a bottom line, that's exactly what one would need to do. The alternative is to trust whatever you read, and I don't think that's really your goal or the goals of others.


I will look over the article you linked with an open mind (which is how I approach everything even if it doesn't seem so), but I do not hold hope that it will be anything more than the others.

Here is another science article, unrelated to Dore, and the use of postuography testing in learning difficluties that you might find interesting and informative.

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1262755

I took brief look at the article and a few of its references.


It is indeed very interesting. It's an interesting method for measuring postures that allows for some very sensitive measures of reactions to various inputs.

BUT...

it's a very different method from what's used at Dore. It's a simple plate that a child stands on.
there's nothing about these measurements that implies measuring neural input or output.
the literature on ADHD and other disorders specifically states that the deficits that they can detect from postuagraphy are NOT specific to those or any other disorder. They are deficits that are indications of many possible problems, so it is not (at this time, anyway) effective as a diagnostic or treatment tool.

I don't want to jump in as a new person and come across defensive, however I'm saddened to see the bashing on this thread by posters who don't really seem to know much about the program.

You entered into the conversation and expressed your point of view just fine. Disagreements are going to happen in a group this size. If not for the diversity among members there would be no discussions. By all means you have a right to your opinion just as any one else does.

With that being said I would like to remind all:

Disagreements do not have to become hostile no one should be disrespected, insulted, or "flamed" for sharing their perspective...this applies equally to all here!

So far this discussion is evidence that this can be done here on ADDF. Every one has done an excellent job of remaining within the guidelines! :D
Thanks!!!

Barb, I definitely don't feel attacked or offended, just concerned to see that posters are voicing uneducated opinions. I am happy to see that you did actually read the articles and to see your comments on them. I found this site doing a google search on Dore, and this thread is one I found, so I would like to try to help other searchers have a more informed experience when they come across this thread. I think we forget that our opinions, and everything we say is out there for all to see. True, there may not be much "proof" to what this program does, how and why, or much scientifically that my tiny brain can understand. I have conversed with a number of parents whose children have been helped tremendously by the Dore program, and their testimonials were *almost* enough for me.

I'm not as scientifically eloquent as you are, but I do have to say, before establishing a fine relationship again with Lady Visa, I had asked many questions they had not been asked before by a parent of the program, and they did answer them to my own satisfaction.

So, again, thank you for taking the time to consider a part of the evaluation process of the program that was previously not understood, AND offering a more informed opinion on it. That is where the value is, and I appreciate that.

Barb, I definitely don't feel attacked or offended, just concerned to see that posters are voicing uneducated opinions.
Ok, but most of us aren't giving uneducated opinions. Well, sure, there's some joking that goes on regarding the procedure, but there's also een a decent amount of professional opinion given as well. I suppose that we could certainly be more polite in our opinions of the people who advertise these "treatments," but many of us do feel as though the people who charge caring, well-meaning parents huge sums of money for treatment which they know won't work are criminals.

It's also very frustrating for many of us because we often see purveyors of "alternatve" treatments who make many false statements criticizing the mainstream medical establishment. Leaving aside the fact that it is disturbing to hear people disrespecting men and women who dedicate their lives to helping others, these statements also often make it more difficult to inform people about real medical treatments.

And finally, many of us understand how difficult diagnosis and treatment can be, and how misinformation can make that route so much more difficult. Some of these altie treatments can delay effective treatment, sometimes they make the child's life more difficult when the treatment doesn't work and the parents blame the child, and sometimes, as in the case of really crackpot quackery like chelation, they can seriously injure or even kill the patient.

I'm sure that I sometimes let my anger at the people who do these things boil over into my recommendations to others, but you should understand why so many of us harbor animosity towards the people who market these "treatment" just to make a quick buck.

1kid2dogs-thank you for sharing these studies with us. It is appreciated.

Unlike Barb and Hyperion I don't make a living doing research or analyzing data but I have some understanding of these things....(much of which was learned from previously named members)

I scanned the
pubmedcenteral gov article hyperlinked in your and Barb's post

These quotes

However, findings obtained from other researchers show some contradictions with the above: as an example, the study of simple orthostatic posture with eyes open has been proven unsuccessful in differentiating controls from autistic patients [15], and children with DCD from controls [16]. Thus, this application field, though promising, needs to be more deeply investigated.


The obtained results are in favour of a non monotonic development of postural strategies in children, slightly dependent on anthropometric factors: the role of vision clearly varies within the studied age range, and probably the maturation of balance control is not yet complete, even at the age of 11. Finally, another question is to be unveiled: is the maturation of balance control paralleled by a corresponding change in cognitive processes? The application of dual tasks, such as a concurrent cognitive one, in the execution of quiet stance trials could help in providing information on this issue.
End source quotes***


Besides the things Barb mentions in her previous post I would like to ask those smarter in this area than myself.

Okay doesn’t this mean more studies need to be done to verify results?

I needed an interpretor for that one........But that is the idea that I got too, that more studies needed to be done. What do the rest of you guys make of it? Most of this is way over my head, and i'm impressed to be around folks at the moment who do understand all the jargon. I am sorry to hear about any animosity towards alternative treatments, and I do understand where you are coming from, Barb. Thanks for explaning that.

Then there is the other side where the conventional medical treatments have let us down, failed, have become dangerous. My son started getting seizures after being on the Adderall, though it worked beautifully with no other noticeable side effects, and not a chance I want to take with other stims, or put him through trial after trial of different meds to find the right one. Talk about making a child's life difficult! Have you been with a child trying to find the right medication? It's grueling.

There are so many things out there to try, and so much research being done, so many new things. I suppose I could research and scan and analyze till the cows come home. All I know is that I have met and spoken with several parents whose children were symtpom free after going through the program, and I don't think it was merely a placebo effect, or I WOULD BE OFFENDED! It worked for them, thier entire families had been transformed, and that is what sold me on it.

Perhaps, if I had not known of these families personally, I would be thinking it would be a bunch of bunk too.

"However, findings obtained from other researchers show some contradictions with the above: as an example, the study of simple orthostatic posture with eyes open has been proven unsuccessful in differentiating controls from autistic patients [15], and children with DCD from controls [16]. Thus, this application field, though promising, needs to be more deeply investigated."

"The obtained results are in favour of a non monotonic development of postural strategies in children, slightly dependent on anthropometric factors: the role of vision clearly varies within the studied age range, and probably the maturation of balance control is not yet complete, even at the age of 11. Finally, another question is to be unveiled: is the maturation of balance control paralleled by a corresponding change in cognitive processes? The application of dual tasks, such as a concurrent cognitive one, in the execution of quiet stance trials could help in providing information on this issue."
End source quotes***

Okay doesn’t this mean more studies need to be done to verify results?Yes and no.

I'd interpret "findings obtained from other researchers show some contradictions with the above" the same way they (and you) did - it needs to be more deeply investigated. Not to verify the results so much as to figure out why they are contradictory. It usually involves a variable that hasn't been considered.

The rest of the quote actually introduces more important questions than simply verification. It questions how the results of the study are interpreted and how far they generalize.

One of the reasons children are so much more difficult to diagnose and treat is the fact that all childhood behaviors must be evaluated in the context of normal development, which is not 100% understood. We don't know, for example, exactly how well developed balance is before age 11 (as your quote stated) and we have no idea how it corresponds to cognitive behaviors during this time. Since this article was all about a measure of posture that relies on vestibular senses (balance), it's unclear how reliable it could be and what the measures actually mean.

But generalizing a study of a postural measure to cognitive abilities, even when the subjects are adults, is tricky.

Have you been with a child trying to find the right medication? It's grueling. YES!:faint: My son went through a rough period with Adderall, but has thankfully done fabulously on Concerta. I was scared at first that he would have bad reactions to anything we tried. It was a huge relief when it worked well with no side effects.


All I know is that I have met and spoken with several parents whose children were symtpom free after going through the program, and I don't think it was merely a placebo effect, or I WOULD BE OFFENDED! It worked for them, thier entire families had been transformed, and that is what sold me on it.

Perhaps, if I had not known of these families personally, I would be thinking it would be a bunch of bunk too.For any ineffective treatment there are examples of success that are not necessarily placebo.

Another plausible explanation is the attention paid to the child and the problem in general. Just about anything you do will produce some changes.

Another plausible explanation is the attention paid to the child and the problem in general. Just about anything you do will produce some changes.
Also regression towards mean. Like everything else in life, ADD symptoms will wax and wane. We've all had extremely ADD days, even on meds (as I did last week during a meeting, thank G_d for handouts), and we've all had days where we're on top of everything, with or without meds. If you give a treatment during the worst of the symptoms, and then do a retest a few weeks later on his best day, you might see an improvement. Followup testing would show that the gains were illusory. Also, a larger sample size would see this effect even itself out.

A similar issue is timing of the results. If you observe serious problems during a difficult time, like final exams, and then do your post-treatment observation over the summer when there's less stress and fewer things that he needs to focus on, you could see some improvement, but what about when he returns to school?

Finally, ADD is a developmental disorder. As in other developmental disorders like Autism, ADD patients will sometimes improve as they age and develop. This is why studies use controls. You need to compare the progress to those given placebo, or to those given another treatment option.

These are only some of the reasons why anecdotal reports aren't given much credit, there are simply too many questions that need to be answered, and we haven't even gotten into all-important question that is often expressed colloquially as "says who?" where we have to look into how the progress was rated (ie did the parents see real improvement, or did they simply want to believe that there was improvement). Lest you think that I'm being overly critical, these same questions would apply to any treatment studies.

The reason why a lot of scientific studies look like they were translated from Sanskrit into English by someone who spoke only Swahili is because they have to address every single one of these questions, and a lot more. Failure to adequately address these questions means a study is unlikely to get pulished, at least in a respectable journal, and also means that no one is going to take it seriously. In order to try to keep these studies from being mini-novels, and because these questions pop up all the time, shorthand terminology exists to make it easier...unfortunately this shorthand is what sometimes results in them being indecipherable to others.

(I know that barb knows all this, I'm responding more to everyone else, even though technically it's a response to her quote up there)

As for what the study means, that's more barb's area...I usually answer the slightly different question "what do I do" from policy makers (such as legislators or lobbyists) and policy implementers (such as administrators or physician directors) in response to studies. However, it does seem to me that they are saying "we're not sure if any of this research is even applicable, much less valid. not only can no conclusions be drawn, not only do we need more research, but it's not even clear where exactly more research should begin. For all we know, this might be a dead end, there's not really enough evidence even to rule that out."

Also regression towards mean. Like everything else in life, ADD symptoms will wax and wane. We've all had extremely ADD days, even on meds (as I did last week during a meeting, thank G_d for handouts), and we've all had days where we're on top of everything, with or without meds

I am sooooo glad this happens to some one besides me-lol

Switching shift also increases ADD symptoms and skull thickness!

Thanks for the interpretations guys. :D




I usually answer the slightly different question "what do I do" from policy makers (such as legislators or lobbyists) and policy implementers (such as administrators or physician directors) in response to studies.

I am at the tail end going “We’re going to do what??? Why?”

Medical science is like a moving on field. I took a three year break and while I was gone things changed. Five years out of some areas in nursing can equate to totally lost which is why refresher courses are required if we let our licenses and continuing education lapse to the five year mark…

Combine all this together and you have a “meta”-maze of confusion (hey the meta word fit so nicely here. :rolleyes: Don’t ya think?)



Have you been with a child trying to find the right medication? It's grueling

I know what this is like times three plus me!!!!


I not only have ADD, I have three daughters all with ADD and then some. I went through parental help me I am drowning mad dash treatment search three times. One of my daughters has what looks like medical diagnostic soup. She has bipolar on top of the ADD with a dash of ODD, and a pinch of hearing speech problems thrown in for good measure. The bipolar was discovered last it was discovered around puberty. Talk about an abundance of “wtf now” moments ,oh yes I have been there done that, own the t-shirt factory- :p ! With this child, it would seem like current meds / treatments would work fine for awhile then bam she was off and running again even though there were no changes in environment to explain the sudden behavior changes.

With my older daughter who is now 27 also has some elements of personality disorder in with her ADD. I went through treatment searches over ten years ago before computers were so common and before the internet flowed with information like it does now!


My bipolar daughter is one of my younger children, yet I was lucky in that her doctor stayed current with research because in a small west Texas town many even in the health care industry tend to want to hang on to old ideas. At least my daughter’s doctor had read up on bipolar being seen younger children and adolescents, while other doctors denied the existence.

Do you have any idea what antidepressants on top of stimulants can do to a bipolar adolescent without stabilizer medications like depakote? One word! YIKES!!! :eek: Do NOT try this at home! So yes many of us have been through the trenches and some more than once!

I do understand and I am here seeking information myself. Diversity should be handled with respect because it is our differences that increase the over all knowlege base here on ADDF and enhance our entire society(IMHO)!

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41334000/jpg/_41334628_booth203250.jpg


The Dohr system for cerebellar instaenlargationextraextrabrianage.http://products.consumerguide.com/media/frontend/productImages/0/3/66611110056603-large-E-and-I-Bungee-Baby-Bouncer.jpg
:D

Well, I guess it's obvious you guys just don't have a clue.

Well, I guess it's obvious you guys just don't have a clue.Which guys? I am interested to know whom you meant since it appeared to me that this thread was very civil and interesting as well. Perhaps my perceptions need readjusting?

Medical science is like a moving on field. I took a three year break and while I was gone things changed. Five years out of some areas in nursing can equate to totally lost which is why refresher courses are required if we let our licenses and continuing education lapse to the five year mark…
hehehe, you're telling me. Right now I'm going through a state-by-state update of regulations for a particular area of healthcare (sorry, confidentiality and all that), and the rules and regs for staff and nurse training are insane. Some states have virtually no requirements, some require 20 some-odd hours of training initially plus another 6-12 per year. And the thing is, I'm updating regs from 2001 and they've all changed so dramatically just in that amount of time. Plus different sources have contradictory reports...argghhhh. Just imagine what you've got, and magnify it by fifty...although I'm sure if we could just sell a few unnecessary states off to Canada and Mexico it would make it so much easier for me.

But yeah, I know that there are a lot of nurses and other providers who desperately need guidance, and I imagine it's a lot easier to deal with this stuff in a quiet office than it is standing over a bed with a patient going into arrest or some such.

Well, I guess it's obvious you guys just don't have a clue.

Which guys? I am interested to know whom you meant since it appeared to me that this thread was very civil and interesting as well. Perhaps my perceptions need readjusting?

I think she was perturbed by the jolly-jumper kid. Personally, I didn't say anything about that cute looking tot until we heard feedback from the pro-side. But now that we have passed that hurdle...:)

argghhhh. Just imagine what you've got, and magnify it by fifty...although I'm sure if we could just sell a few unnecessary states off to Canada and Mexico it would make it so much easier for me.

Actually that part is probably harder on you I have one nurse in one state to keep up with fifty I can see where that would be frustrating.

I am laughing here because just below you is Scuro, perhaps he would like to pick a state?


But yeah, I know that there are a lot of nurses and other providers who desperately need guidance, and I imagine it's a lot easier to deal with this stuff in a quiet office than it is standing over a bed with a patient going into arrest or some such.

When there is “arrest or code” we have algorithms / procedures to go by and a hierarchy system so we know who is in charge. When it comes to research findings, I spend a great deal of time explaining to family members and patients why we are doing the procedure / treatments this way instead of the one grandpa Jones had done 20 years ago. Yes I have to modify my language or the persons automatic defensiveness goes up. They assume that all medical jargon was designed to baffle them…..when all is said and done ya pray because God help ya if some thing goes wrong!




Well, I guess it's obvious you guys just don't have a clue.

Some have more clues than others I will admit. This is an ADD board and ya can’t have a group of ADDers without at least some silliness – seems to be part of being ADD?

As annoying as you find some of the humor it is one of the things keeping this thread on the civil side. … this group can do uncivil :eek: believe me! .

I agree that most members do not think that the Dore system is useful for the treatment of ADD. The movement measurements and disorders that is worth some more exploration in my book. There some here who have expressed interest in the literature and information you have provided.

Just because some thing isn’t useful for the treatment of ADD doesn’t mean it is totally worthless. You have generated interest in some people here despite the silliness.


Which guys? I am interested to know whom you meant since it appeared to me that this thread was very civil and interesting as well.

I have noticed we have a photo specialist who is communicating their opinions via pictures instead of words. So there is variety of opinions some agreed that the Dore system may be of interest and some in disagreement. They seem to feel it is closer to a tot toy.

In all so far most members have been pretty civil in this thread considering the subject matter(I am guessing you missed genetic of ADD, etiology, epigentitic, Stabile and Ratey and hyperfocus threads-which were much less civil)

Any time you post there is going to be some disagreement. Never know what people will pick up and run with around here either. This why any time I post as a moderator I always include a request in the post asking members to address staff actions by PM other wise the thread can turn into a debate about the staff interventions and my moderator notes! :rolleyes:

We all have to tolerate opposing opinions, not just in here on ADDF but also out there in the real world of people.

Okay, first of all, for many people the idea of a "Cure" is a beautiful dream, and as such they will have a certain weakness for wanting to believe.

However, the best way to view such suggestions is with suspicion for the simple reason that people know of this "Wanting to believe" and capitolize on it.

Another point to keep in mind is knowing more about ADD/ADHD. As near as modern neuroscience and genetics can tell there is NOTHING physically pathological in person with ADD. We are functionally different NOT broken. I've said this before, but the environment in which the genes for ADD/ADHD developed was very different from the one we live in now. Modern society as we know it is only around six thousand years old or so. It's also a pretty arbitrary cultural construct. Biological change doesn't work that fast so those of us who aren't well suited for this artificial construct we call society are kind of left out in the cold. The frequency of genes for ADD/ADHD is probably just as high in hunter gatherer tribes as it is in us (I can say this because humans are probably the most genetically homogenous mammals on planet earth with the exception of some HIGHLY endangered species). Interestingly there is no real problem in those sorts of society's with pathological symptoms of ADD. So I prefer to think of ADD as a "contextual disorder". IE a problem in the particular environment most of us find ourselves in, but not necessarily one in the environment it evolved in.

Lastly it's important to note that ADD/ADHD is a SYNDROME, not a single problem. This is why there are so many subtypes and so much variation in symptomology. There are probably hundreds of genes involved. The likelihood of "Fixing" a problem that complex completely is VERY small. That, of course, goes on with the thinking that it's REALLY a disorder in the first place. The sad fact is that changing society on the whole would do us a world of good (odd considering we're the ones supposed to be broken). Being as that isn't going to happen we need to buck up and adapt as best we can.

There are, sadly, very few quick fixes for anything in the world.

That, of course, goes on with the thinking that it's REALLY a disorder in the first place. The sad fact is that changing society on the whole would do us a world of good (odd considering we're the ones supposed to be broken). Being as that isn't going to happen we need to buck up and adapt as best we can.

:D :D :D I like the way you put this!!!!



There are, sadly, very few quick fixes for anything in the world.

Only two that I can think of..

#1 - Have a nice peaceful day (some ones bound to come along a screw it up)

#2 - A fool having too much $$$ (they soon part)

I think with a set of hand cuffs or two this idea could go along way to fixing half of my ADHD symptoms = I could put Gary in it :p It would keep him busy for a little while and get his untreated ADHD bouncy hinny outta my hair! :rolleyes:

In all so far most members have been pretty civil in this thread considering the subject matter(I am guessing you missed genetic of ADD, etiology, epigentitic, Stabile and Ratey and hyperfocus threads-which were much less civil) I have read a few threads that have degenerated into lack of civility yes ma'am ;) which is precisely why I made the observation that this had not, IMHO.

Any time you post there is going to be some disagreement. Never know what people will pick up and run with around here either. This why any time I post as a moderator I always include a request in the post asking members to address staff actions by PM other wise the thread can turn into a debate about the staff interventions and my moderator notes! :rolleyes:

We all have to tolerate opposing opinions, not just in here on ADDF but also out there in the real world of people.Which is probably why I posted in this thread to begin with, old mod habits die hard!

And you do a wonderful job Tammy, you get a gold star today :D.

I'm jumping in with my two cents after reading a good bit (but not all) of the preceeding posts. So if I duplicate what someone else said, I apologize.

A cure seems unlikely, however based on some of the things I've read in Hallowell and Ratey's work it might be part of an overall treatment plan that was effective for some or even many ADDers. In my experience the truth is rather more often found nearer the middle than the extremes. I don't think we should rule out anything that is safe and has some scientific underpinnings as to why it might be effective as long as it doesn't eclipse treatments that have a proven track record. If someone has the money to pursue this avenue -- more power to them. I wish we did. Helping develop any part of one's brain seems like a good idea to me. However, toting it as a cure I'm afraid will discourage others from pursuing more accessible and proven treatments or feel guilty about using them.

Five percent of the folks with ADHD show a real difference when their diet elimates potential allergens. That doesn't do much for the other 95%, but is very significant for that 5%. But I'll bet an awful lot of parents feel guilty using meds rather than radical diet changes even their child is very unlikely statistically to be helped by that method. I expect something similar is true for the Dore method. Some people will be helped -- maybe it helps their ADD or a related condition they have (ie: dyslexia). For them it's great -- but it's not a one size fits all solution.

Scattered

I don't think we should rule out anything that is safe and has some scientific underpinnings as to why it might be effective as long as it doesn't eclipse treatments that have a proven track record. If someone has the money to pursue this avenue -- more power to them.
This is a perfectly rational sentment, and I can fully understand the viewpoint, I personally used to feel the same way, it's common sense. However, perhaps I can explain how some of us view it when we're looking at it in the larger picture:

In policy circles, we refer to money as "resources," in the larger system. When we look at resources that are availale for healthcare, there are rarely excess resources to expend on treatments which aren't helpful. Sure, there may be for certain individuals, but a lot of the resources for healthcare in this country comes from insurance or Medicaid (oy, Medicaid, part of the reason I've posted so much in the last hour is because I just got off work and am still in "policy" mode, but I'm not opening my papers because if I see the word "Medicaid" one more time, I may commit an act of random violence against an inanimate object). These are larger pools which are to some extent common goods, because the general health of the population is, to a large extent, a common good (in other words, we don't take care of the sick because it's the nice thing to do, we do it because it makes the rest of us healthier).

If we divert resources from these pools towards treatments that don't produce productive gains, its a loss. In the end, it does wind up diverting resources from treatments with proven track records, but equally as bad is the fact that you're expending resources wastefully. It becomes a drain on the system, and results in driving up healthcare costs in general, and you guys don't need me to tell you that this is already a big enough problem as it is.

OK, well, maybe I was just making an attempt to pass something useful on, and this place is too smart for me. You are people who have been there and tried many things, you are people of facts and science and proof. Not much I can say to promote what the Dore program has done for many individuals. There is alot out there, and a lot that we don't know, and are only touching on. As a single mom, I never would have invested this kind of moolah if I didn't think my son would have some kind of chance at being helped by it. I will not ever stop looking for ways to make his frustrating life better. I'm a simple gal, my brain could never think the great things you all think. But I am great in faith, and in hope that many have been helped by things that others don't understand and that don't work for everyone (thank you Scattered, well said). So I go with that faith, and I will continue to post about his experiences with Dore, in hopes that others of similar faith might be interested in finding more about this intriguing developing program.

I apologize if I haven't quite understood the intention of the humor presented here.

Best to you all! :-)

Another point to keep in mind is knowing more about ADD/ADHD. As near as modern neuroscience and genetics can tell there is NOTHING physically pathological in person with ADD. We are functionally different NOT broken. So ADHD is like being left handed? Just a difference? Would all be solved if we made things ADHD friendly...like making sure your fishing reel can be reeled in from both sides? Or are there real and serious impairments here that mostly have a biological base? If it is an impairment of doing/ not-doing, the right thing...at the right time...what is accommodation that society is to make? These are internal processes. At school, we accommodate by being surrogate decision makers. One on one, someone guides an ADHDer through the process of doing or stopping. On the other hand, what is the utopian "functional fix"? For the blind we have brail and other physical accommodations. What would you do for an ADHDer? Make everything stimulating and brief in it's reward intervals?

I've said this before, but the environment in which the genes for ADD/ADHD developed was very different from the one we live in now. Modern society as we know it is only around six thousand years old or so. It's also a pretty arbitrary cultural construct. Biological change doesn't work that fast so those of us who aren't well suited for this artificial construct we call society are kind of left out in the cold. Who said ADHD genes developed in 6 thousand years? The major shift in society came with farming...art dates that far back. That would be 20 to 60 thousand years ago.

Interestingly there is no real problem in those sorts of society's with pathological symptoms of ADD. So I prefer to think of ADD as a "contextual disorder". IE a problem in the particular environment most of us find ourselves in.. If a tree falls in a forest, does anyone hear? Who says that an ADHD hunter won't have problems in that society. I can tell you at school, in the gym, in the hallway...ADHD kids are not the chosen leaders. Even though these are better enviornments for them. Who is the biggest employer of ADHDers? 35% are self employed...that stat is telling.

Okay, I'm not getting into the "difference" argument, but I wanted to point out the cyclical pattern that

1 - person posts some "exciting" method

2 - people explain why it isn't exciting

3 - person accuses people of being closed-minded and/or ignorant and/or refusing to look at the evidence

4 - people demonstrated that they have looked at the "evidence" and explain again what the evidence is/means

5 - person claims to be open minded and understand where people are coming from, but insists they think the information is important and useful and couldn't hurt

6 - people explain why it can hurt

7 - person accuses people of just not wanting "help" and ducks out

8 - civility leaves along with person....

Couldn't agree more...

Is this the same place that came up with the one legged chair for adhd kids at school?

I apologize if I haven't quite understood the intention of the humor presented here.

Ever been in one of those situations where a subject gets brought or a some thing gets said and suddenly tension fills the air. Afterwards some one has to say some thing……..

We aren’t too smart for any one, but we are skeptical okay? This thing cost a great deal of money since you say your son uses it you should know.

See 12-25 kids isn’t enough to claim scientific evidence but looking at the site it sure seems to indicate that this system has been scientifically tested by independent research…..…… Nursing taught me the basics but some research details I didn’t know either until I came here. I learned by having some of the things I presented chewed up and explained in more precise language. I learned much the same way … I did not necessarily like what I heard, I even argued a bit in the end I did hear what was being said and I have learned to spot more things when I do read research stuff ….. (but don’t tell Barb!)

When some one begins talking ADD treatments especially unproven ones that cost a lot of money it is a sensitive subject in these parts. It is like I tried to explain several post back…… as hard as this is to tolerate especially because this is some thing that helped your son (a sensitive area for you also I am sure) no one is trying to be mean they are just trying to keep people like us with ADD from being taken….. the humor is an ADD attempt to lighten the tone. You have as much right to your opinion as any one else, that is the thing all have equal right to their opinion. I do agree all these voices of disagreement can be over whelming (after a while you do get used to it = I did)


If we divert resources from these pools towards treatments that don't produce productive gains, its a loss. In the end, it does wind up diverting resources from treatments with proven track records, but equally as bad is the fact that you're expending resources wastefully. It becomes a drain on the system, and results in driving up healthcare costs in general, and you guys don't need me to tell you that this is already a big enough problem as it is.

You know hyperion this is the one big problem I have with these programs also. Most have limited resources and can not afford to spend the amount of money this cost. It doesn’t seem like some thing insurance companies would cover.


My only real fear with things like this is that parents of limited resources will try these things to the exhaust of all their funds and then if it does not work they can no longer try the thing that have been proven to work.

Like some one who falls into the 20% that can not be helped by medications and they have the funds then I see no problem with some sound research and then attempting one of the alternate treatments. This is what I meant by dollars and cents. I only had so much I could spent on my ADD so logic dictated I begin with the treatment that had the highest success rate.

In all fairness their is their site.and explination

Dore Achievement site (http://www.dorecenters.com/doreprogram/research.shtml)

FAQ (http://www.dorecentres.co.uk/faq.aspx)


*******Quote from Dore Site

What does the exercise programme involve?

The exercises are straightforward, easy to learn, and are carried out at home. They usually take 5-10 minutes twice a day. A typical example of an exercise: standing on a cushion on one leg and throwing a beanbag from one hand to another for one minute. We supply you with all the tools necessary, as well as instruction and drawings to guide you.

How often do I need to visit the DORE centre?

To make sure that you are getting the full benefit of the programme as your cerebellum develops and your symptoms improve, we'll ask you to return to the DORE centre every 6 weeks for re-evaluation. These visits usually take an hour and a half. Then, depending upon your progress, we will give you a new exercise regimen to follow for the next 6-week period.

When is the programme complete?

When our tests show your cerebellum is working to its full capacity, you have completed the programme - usually after 9-12 months. Our research has shown that once the cerebellum is developed it stays that way, i.e. there is no regression. The exercise programme stops, but typically the changes - improvements in reading, writing, etc. -continue well into the following year.
*******End Quote


DORE explination- how it works (http://www.dorecentres.co.uk/how.aspx)

*******Quote for Site
Q: How is dyslexia related to the cerebellum?

A: The cerebellum is a highly complex area of the nervous system and is sometimes referred to as the “hindbrain.” It contains 50 percent of the brain’s nerve cells despite being 10 percent of the total size of the thinking brain. With its numerous connections to the cerebral cortex, the cerebellum appears to be strongly associated with integrating sensory data, including visual and auditory information and links to the language areas of the brain. Poor development or early damage to the cerebellum is shown to impair development of language and decoding skills necessary for the acquisition of reading and writing, but does not affect intelligence. Because dyslexia usually exists within the context of a normal or above normal IQ, the difference between skill level and intelligence helps identify the disorder.

Q: How does the exercise program stimulate the cerebellum?

A: By testing cerebellar function, DORE has found that those affected by learning disorders exhibit very poor use of auditory and/or visual balance systems, a condition we call Cerebellar Development Delay (CDD). Exercises incorporated in the DORE programme are simple to perform, but complex in their effect on the cerebellum. They stimulate the cerebellum to function more rapidly, and to enable the development of previously poor motor and cognitive skills. The exercise programme directly impacts motor skills, while cognitive skills slowly improve through the exercises’ stimulatory effects.

Q: What are some examples of the exercises and how does each of them affect the cerebellum?

A: DORE’s exercise combinations and sequences result from years of research and development, and are consistently updated to improve response. Each exercise is different and is combined with other exercises for varied effects. Example: The client sits on a large air-filled ball with feet off the ground, and bounces vertically up and down. Simultaneously, the client tosses a beanbag from one hand to another. All of the processes required to complete the exercise are influenced by the cerebellum, and as a result, builds cerebellar function.
*******End Quote

They have free on-line test but in order to take them you have to give out things like telephone number. Think they would recognize time and temperature? Do they have such things as time and temp places any more?

Although I am not too sure about the dyslexia thing I think it is because I use some processor that are slower and start with a "p"......here is the source I have used for a while.

From “A User’s Guide to the Brain”

John J. Ratey M.D.

Page 282-283 (excerpts)

Clinically diagnosed dyslexics are born with several structural differences in their brains that make reading, sounding out words, or spelling extremely difficult despite their normal or above-average intelligence. The common cortex has six basic layers, with 1 having essentially no cells, but dyslexics typically have branches of cells in layer 1.

Studies have shown that part of the cause may be relative impairment of the magnocellular visual cells in the geniculate body a way station in the thalamus as information passes through there on it’s way to the cortex.

Other cells in the geniculate bodies parvocellular cells-are slow processors and evolved later in the brain than the fast processing magnocellular cells, which are the main type in the lower primates and are good at picking up quick movements and thus necessary for survival. The parvocellular cells help us discern subtleties in tones and texture shape and color.
***End Quote

I am getting a feeling these guys aren't saying exactly the same things.....According to Ratey I will always have dyslexia. I will always process the way I do because I have more of the "p" cells things than the "M" ones.

I began this search about a month ago...so it seems, looking for price because of what Hyperion said......

Funny when I typed in the Dore Achievement Centers I found some dyslexics on their message board having much the same conversation we are. It was rather an eye opener….wonder if they do the same thing do they find us??? They aren't quiet as passionate........I guess my passion isn't from my dyslexia :o

I did “over read” a price of $3,000.00 to $4,000.00. Apparently some of them have tried it with varying results.

More information I found. .no prices out side the dyslexia conversation…..Probably varies with type of treatment!

The exercises are straightforward, easy to learn, and are carried out at home. They usually take 5-10 minutes twice a day. A typical example of an exercise: standing on a cushion on one leg and throwing a beanbag from one hand to another for one minute. We supply you with all the tools necessary, as well as instruction and drawings to guide you.

I actually did something similar when I had physical therapy for an ankle injury. Didn't do anything for my ADD, but it sure helped my ankle and balance.

Funny when I typed in the Dore Achievement Centers I found some dyslexics on their message board having much the same conversation we are. It was rather an eye opener….wonder if they do the same thing do they find us??? They aren't quiet as passionate........I guess my passion isn't from my dyslexia
This is often another warning bell that one may have encountered quackery. While there are certainly many treatments that can be effective for multiple ailments (Parkinson's drugs being used to treat restless leg syndrome, for instance, or using ADD stimulants to treat narcolepsy), when someone claims that their treatment can cure whatever happens to ail you, that's a problem. Other than a good diet, plenty of fluids and electrolytes, and moderate exercise, there isn't much that's going to be effective against a broad spectrum of ailments. Real life just doesn't work that way, there is no "majical elixer" that works against everything.

That being said, if they've got evidence to show otherwise, I'd be willing to read it. behavioral therapy has already been shown to be effective in treating ADD. There is much evidence to back up its efficacy, although most studies have shown it to be far more effective when used with medication. I don't know if this ribbit stuff is similar to the standard behavioral therapy techniques that I've read about, but I'm willing to accept that there's at least some evidence to suggest that it might be useful.

So ADHD is like being left handed? Just a difference? Would all be solved if we made things ADHD friendly...like making sure your fishing reel can be reeled in from both sides? Or are there real and serious impairments here that mostly have a biological base? If it is an impairment of doing/ not-doing, the right thing...at the right time...what is accommodation that society is to make? These are internal processes. At school, we accommodate by being surrogate decision makers. One on one, someone guides an ADHDer through the process of doing or stopping. On the other hand, what is the utopian "functional fix"? For the blind we have brail and other physical accommodations. What would you do for an ADHDer? Make everything stimulating and brief in it's reward intervals?

Who said ADHD genes developed in 6 thousand years? The major shift in society came with farming...art dates that far back. That would be 20 to 60 thousand years ago.

If a tree falls in a forest, does anyone hear? Who says that an ADHD hunter won't have problems in that society. I can tell you at school, in the gym, in the hallway...ADHD kids are not the chosen leaders. Even though these are better enviornments for them. Who is the biggest employer of ADHDers? 35% are self employed...that stat is telling.


Scuro, agriculture is placed conservatively as first appearing around ten thousand years ago in asia and six thousand years ago in the fertile crescent region.

Secondly, I never argued there weren't impairments. What I said was that they are contextually based. You might be interested to read some population genetics studies or population dynamics. From the geneticists point of view we aren't broken. Modern society in roughly to form we are now familiar with, which is to say with a large population base, specialized occupations, agriculture, etc. Does not go back 20,000 years. Paintings are evidence of culture not large scale labor distribution and high population density. Those people were still hunter gatherers.

The genes they have identified as being associated with ADD are dated at around 40,000 years old.

Lastly, the differences in diagnosis rates in the states versus europe has been largely pinned on two factors. ONE) They have different diagnostic criteria. TWO) They have a different educational system. The second part would imply the more flexible environment I'm talking about. A good portion of ADD "Pathology" like the anxiety and the PTSD like symptoms are due to being crapped on growing up this way, not from the condition itself.

Also, for all the "impairments" that go with it there are often, indeed almost always, gifted areas that go with it too. So, what's so hard to believe about a difference in wiring resulting in different talents and weak spots?

You are welcome to your opinion of course. I think you misunderstood much of what I was trying to say though.

I wouldn't call a gold fish having trouble functioning outside it's bowl impaired. I'd seriously consider relocating it to a more appropriate environment. Like the fish bowl.

It's not exactly intuitive, but life as we know it is not "NORMAL" by any standard. Compare the population densities we live in with typical hunter gatherers. Did you know, for example, that the average person's number of friends, aquaintances, co-workers etc comes out to exactly the same size range as the average hunter gatherer tribe size? Evolutionary psychologists hypothesized this would be true and tested it and geuss what? It is. Why? Simple we aren't general purpose computers. We're optimized for the enviroment we developed in. Large scale urbanization, nation states, a million different assembly line ways of doing business? Even "Normal" people have trouble with this environment. Is it any wonder we do?

For the record even being "Left handed" isn't a joke. Left handers even with that small difference have higher mortality rates. So being different can be plenty incapacitating in an intolerant environment.

I am getting a feeling these guys aren't saying exactly the same things.....According to Ratey I will always have dyslexia. I will always process the way I do because I have more of the "p" cells things than the "M" ones.

Not only are they not talking about the same thing, they aren't even talking about the same brain structures.

Dore says the problem is in the cerebellum, a very "old" structure in the hindbrain that mostly handles balance and coordination. I'm sure this theory comes from the coordination symptoms, but coordination is more than just the cerebellum. The information goes to and from the cerebellum through other structures.

Ratey is talking about the cerebral cortex, the part of the brain that is divided into "lobes" based on function (by us, not by physical differences) and handles all of the higher processes. All of the information that goes to and from the cerebral cortex also goes through other structures.

The midbrain ties them all together.

That being said, if they've got evidence to show otherwise, I'd be willing to read it. behavioral therapy has already been shown to be effective in treating ADD. There is much evidence to back up its efficacy, although most studies have shown it to be far more effective when used with medication. I don't know if this ribbit stuff is similar to the standard behavioral therapy techniques that I've read about, but I'm willing to accept that there's at least some evidence to suggest that it might be useful.Whoa. Back up!

I HATE doing this, because you've taught me SO much and you're so well informed, but I have to correct this.

The research does not show that behavioral therapy is effective in treating ADD. It has shown that it doesn't hurt.

CBT is recommended as a supplement to medication because it improves some of the behavioral problems that result from ADD (organizational skills, etc.).

Behavior modification, which doesn't involve anything like standing on one leg, is pretty much the only therapy (other than medication) that is "proven" for any psychological disorders. It's more effective for some (like OCD & phobias) than others (not for schizophrenia, etc.), but it's been very successful in treating some disorders. Unfortunately, ADHD isn't one of them.

Now, there are a great deal of psychotherapists that will disagree with that statement, saying that other psychotherapy works, but that's shakey ground to stand on given contradictory and/or inconclusive studies. It's a difficult thing to test, however, since no patient would be able to remain blind to the condition. Who's going to be unaware they are being psychoanalyzed?

The follow up on the last big government study (The stupid acronym name for it escapes me), did in fact show that children provided with behavioral therapy had a roughly twenty percent improvement. The catch was that the therapy had to be continuous (a bit like meds in that respect). Prior to the follow up findings behavioral therapy was considered a bust (even though they acknowledged the symptom improvement even then).

In fairness, there has been a lot of controversy over that study and it's findings. Largely because the people conducting the study were accused of having a decided bias against medication and sat on the initial results for quite some time before publishing because, their accusors asserted, they were unhappy with the initial results.

They did however still publish the initial results, whether they liked them or not. The follow up on the study subjects seems to vindicate their position somewhat. Children that were medicated and had behavioral therapy, and children who just had medication did not seem at all different in the initial analysis. They both had the same level of improvement. HOWEVER, one of the things that's important to note about meds (particularly in older children and adults) is they don't teach behavior. They only make it possible for us to learn more effectively and act and focus more appropriately. In younger students meds early on may well be enough for them to aquire the skill sets they need on their own. In older students behavioral therapy may well be necessary to get the full benefit and barring further evaluation of the study (the follow up supports this idea as well, but it's probably too early to tell) there really isn't anyone actively testing this idea that I'm aware of.

In short behavioral therapy is still an ongoing issue and hasn't been ruled ineffective on it's own. It has been shown to be somewhat less effective for most children than meds.

Oh and to Scuro, I hope my rather passionate interest in the subject matter isn't coming off in a hostile fashion. That's the last thing I want.

Your arguments are well thought out and clearly you share my interest in the issue. I just felt you had missed my point.

The follow up on the last big government study (The stupid acronym name for it escapes me), did in fact show that children provided with behavioral therapy had a roughly twenty percent improvement. If you have a citation, please share it. I've not seen such a study.


They did however still publish the initial results, whether they liked them or not. The follow up on the study subjects seems to vindicate their position somewhat. Children that were medicated and had behavioral therapy, and children who just had medication did not seem at all different in the initial analysis. They both had the same level of improvement. HOWEVER, one of the things that's important to note about meds (particularly in older children and adults) is they don't teach behavior. They only make it possible for us to learn more effectively and act and focus more appropriately. No, meds don't teach behavior. However, CBT isn't parenting either.

There are many parenting techniques that can be learned that will help ANY child learn behavior.

CBT does not improve ADHD symptoms.

Researchers cannot arbitrarily pick and choose which results to publish, which to believe, etc. It's a process of eliminating rival hypotheses. Any statistical difference or lack thereof is important.



In short behavioral therapy is still an ongoing issue and hasn't been ruled ineffective on it's own. It has been shown to be somewhat less effective for most children than meds.Until I see a large valid study (or series of smaller ones) that shows that CBT reduces ADHD symptoms (with results that last more than 2 days), I'll continue to argue, based on several studies, that is does not.

"Behavioral therapy" used as a term to describe the sorts of therapy they are using does not necessarily mean "Cognitive behavioral therapy". For what it's worth CBT can be VERY helpful in many of the related problems that go with ADD like self esteem issues for example.

As for the study I'll have to dig up the Name. The acronym is rather confusing, so I always have trouble remembering it.

One thing that is certain is that it is a Scientificly established fact that "talk therapy" causes changes in brain chemistry. So, I'm inclined to believe it can influence lots of conditions. Behavioral therapy can also mean such things as the newer bio-feedback techniques but there isn't a lot of study data available on those techniques.

Okay looked up the study. It was called the MTA. It's one of the biggest recent studies conducted on exactly this issue. Here is an excerpt from the National institute of Mental health website:

Q. What is the Multimodal Treatment Study of Children with ADHD?
A. The Multimodal Treatment Study of Children with ADHD–"MTA" for short–brought together 18 nationally recognized authorities in ADHD at 6 different university medical centers and hospitals to evaluate the leading treatments for ADHD, including various forms of behavior therapy and medications. The study has included nearly 600 elementary school children, ages 7-9, randomly assigned to one of four treatment modes: (1) medication alone; (2) psychosocial/behavioral treatment alone; (3) a combination of both; or (4) routine community care.

Q. Why is this study important?
A. ADHD is a major public health problem of great interest to many parents, teachers, and health care providers. Up-to-date information concerning the long-term safety and comparative effectiveness of its treatments is urgently needed. While previous studies have examined the safety and compared the effectiveness of the two major forms of treatment, medication and behavior therapy, these studies generally have been limited to periods up to 4 months. The MTA study demonstrates for the first time the safety and relative effectiveness of these two treatments (including a behavioral therapy-only group), alone and in combination, for a time period up to 14 months, and compares these treatments to routine community care. The children involved in the study will be tracked into adolescence to document and evaluate long-term outcomes.

Q. What are the major findings of this study so far?
A. The MTA results published in December 1999 indicate that long-term combination treatments as well as medication-management alone are both significantly superior to intensive behavioral treatments and routine community treatments in reducing ADHD symptoms. The study also shows that these differential benefits extend as long as 14 months. In other areas of functioning (specifically anxiety symptoms, academic performance, oppositionality, parent-child relations, and social skills), the combined treatment approach was consistently superior to routine community care, whereas the single treatments (medication-only or behavioral treatment only) were not. In addition to the advantages provided by the combined treatment for several outcomes, this form of treatment allowed children to be successfully treated over the course of the study with somewhat lower doses of medication, compared to the medication-only group. These same findings were replicated across all six research sites, despite substantial differences among sites in their samples' sociodemographic characteristics. Therefore, the study's overall results appear to be applicable and generalizable to a wide range of children and families in need of treatment services for ADHD.

Q. Given the effectiveness of medication management, what is the role and need for behavioral therapy?
A. As noted in the NIH ADHD Consensus Conference in November 1998, several decades of research have amply demonstrated that behavioral therapies are quite effective. What the MTA study has demonstrated is that on average, carefully monitored medication management with monthly follow-up is more effective than intensive behavioral treatment for ADHD symptoms, for periods lasting as long as 14 months. All children tended to improve over the course of the study, but they differed in the relative amount of improvement, with the carefully done medication management approaches generally showing the greatest improvement. Nonetheless, children's responses varied enormously, and some children clearly did very well in each of the treatment groups. For some outcomes that are important in the daily functioning of these children (e.g., academic performance, familial relations), the combination of behavioral therapy and medication was necessary to produce improvements better than community care. Of note, families and teachers reported somewhat higher levels of consumer satisfaction for those treatments that included the behavioral therapy components. Therefore, medication alone is not necessarily the best treatment for every child, and families often need to pursue other treatments, either alone or in combination with medication.

The study is ongoing. One of the best features of the study, in my opinion is that all entrants were required to meet full DSM-IV diagnostic criteria to be included in the study.