His home page.
http://www.adhdfraud.org/

Articles, essays, and other information pertaining to the fraud of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)--Compiled by Dr. Fred Baughman

Fred A. Baughman Jr., MD has been an adult & child neurologist, in private practice, for 35 years. Making "disease" (real diseases--epilepsy, brain tumor, multiple sclerosis, etc.) or "no disease" (emotional, psychological, psychiatric) diagnoses daily, he has discovered and described real, bona fide diseases.

It is this particular medical and scientific background that has led him to view the "epidemic" of one particular "disease"--Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)--with increasing alarm. Dr. Baughman describes this himself. Referring to psychiatry, he says:

"They made a list of the most common symptoms of emotional discomfiture of children; those which bother teachers and parents most, and in a stroke that could not be more devoid of science or Hippocratic motive--termed them a 'disease.' Twenty five years of research, not deserving of the term 'research.,' has failed to validate ADD/ADHD as a disease. Tragically--the "epidemic" having grown from 500 thousand in 1985 to between 5 and 7 million today--this remains the state of the 'science' of ADHD."

In addition to scientific articles that have appeared in leading national and international medical journals, Dr. Baughman has testified for victimized parents and children in ADHD/Ritalin legal cases, writes for the print media and appears on talk radio shows, always making the point that ADHD is fraudulent--a creation of the psychiatric-pharmaceutical cartel, without which they would have nothing to prescribe their dangerous, addictive, Schedule II, stimulants for--namely, Ritalin (methylphenindate), Dexedrine (dextro-amphetamine), Adderall (mixed dextro- and levo-amphetamine) and, Gradumet, and Desoxyn (both of which are methamphetamine, 'speed,' 'ice').

The entire country, including all 5-7 million with the ADHD diagnosis today, have been deceived and victimized; deprived of their informed consent rights and drugged--for profit! It must be stopped. Now!

His opinions
http://www.adhdfraud.org/frameit.asp?src=commentary.htm



and links to Scientology


An active opponent of the ADHD diagnosis, Baughman has been a child neurologist, in private practice, for 35 years. He is also a medical expert for the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), an advocacy group founded by the Church of Scientology in 1969. -> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/
An interview in Freedom Magazine which is published by Scientology ->http://www.freedommag.org/english/vol31I2/page02.htm
and another -> http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=baughman%20and%20scientology


Although he is frequently cited by CCHR and has written articles in support of Applied Scholastics, Dr. Baughman is generally regarded as an unrepresentative and ill-informed voice on learning disabilities. The National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) told the Congressional Committee on Education and the Workforce in a letter of September 29, 2000 that Dr. Baughman "represent[s] fringe opinions about the disorder and about psychiatry." His position is certainly at odds with mainstream research and ignores the findings of a huge amount of research from around the world.

Even Dr. Baughman does not go quite as far as some supporters of Study Tech, who claim that the symptoms attributed to dyslexia are in fact caused by psychiatry:

"Dyslexia" is in fact a coverup for the victims of a deliberate psych-based assault on the mind which is also now another catch-all "treatable (and chargeable) psych illness".
(Ned Hoover, email to TNX mailing list, June 17, 1996)

So what you have with Baughman is a Dr. who has lost all objectivity and has become completly biased and shares the same belief system as Scientology. Scientology websites often link to his material or website. IMHO his message is a message of fear. That is the only way the Antipsych movement has any hope of influencing parents decisions.

More on Scientology here ->http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18118

in addition to believing that add, autism, schiophrenia, and bipolar disorders do not exist, his rationale for refusing to accept them as valid disorders could just as easily be used to deny that parkinson's disorder exists, which would be news to anyone who has witnessed family members confined to a wheelchair and unable to move due to this horrible illness.

his is a good website to illustrate the 'logic' often employed by pseudoscientists. he often repeats the same assertion over and over, even when it is not actually relevent to the point that he thinks he is refuting. he fails to provide affirmative arguments, that is to say that you see a lot of 'you are wrong,' arguments, without seeing any 'here is what is really happening here.'

in addition, you will note that he does not cite any other researchers or studies, makes no mention of scientific articles, and includes no peer-reviewed literature. much of the time, his 'commentary' involves picking apart news stories where the journalist is clearly either misunderstanding or oversimplifying very complex scientific issues. rather than discussing a peer-reviewed article, he sticks with common media.

finally, beware of anyone who claims that any area of science is simple, and appeals to 'common sense' as being more valid than scientific observations. 'common sense' is what led people to believe that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it. neurology especially is a complicated subject. i know that i often try to simplify it and talk about how it's not too difficult to understand, and this is true, but a good writer will also convey the fact that while this is not exactly rocket science, it is brain surgery.

finally, one last important thing about science. scientific discoveries build on and corroborate discoveries in other fields. so with neurology and the issue of chemical imbalances, this is confirmed by what we know from cellular biology and organic chemistry. men like dr. baughman may try to make something like add seem like just a wild guess, but in order to do so, one would have to ignore pretty much everything known about biology and chemistry, not to mention that the entirety of the american psychological association, american psychiatric association, american medical association, national institutes of health, national institutes of mental health, and the world health organisation would all have to be either possess a level of incompetence usually only associated with fema, or be in on the conspiracy...of course, if the conspiracy to push prescription drugs on kids were that large, dividing up the money would leave each conspirator with fifty cents...or about the cost of a couple of pens.

little things like this should be good tip-offs that a particular website may be pushing pseudoscience.

compare this with the webpage for add that is run by the national institute of mental health. note the very obvious differences not only in factual content, but also in terms of the logic and the ways that evidence is presented.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/adhdmenu.cfm

Thanks Scuro,

Gotta love his certitude; there are NO mental disorders!

That absolutist, black and white statement is a tip off that the information that follows will be equally empty and slanted.

Indeed, he follows with a homily about self-control.


Fred A. Baughman Jr (http://www.adhdfraud.org/emails/121404-c.htm): D and L, if you agree with "most" but not all of what I say: that there is no such thing as a mental, psychiatric disease/physical abnormality/chemical imbalance, you do not yet understand that such "disease" claims are a total,100% fraud. Absent objective brain diseases, all humans are capable of learning self control. It is up to the adults in their lives--parents, teachers, mostly, to teach them self control, and up to the individual, increasingly through childhood and adolescence, to learn self-control on his own. Parents, teachers and individuals who have come to believe in the chemical imbalance, psychiatic diagnosis as disease model, not knowing what to expect from themselves and the adults in their lives are terribly handicapped as set forth in life.

in addition to believing that add, autism, schiophrenia, and bipolar disorders do not exist, his rationale for refusing to accept them as valid disorders could just as easily be used to deny that parkinson's disorder exists, which would be news to anyone who has witnessed family members confined to a wheelchair and unable to move due to this horrible illness.


Funny you should mention Parkinsons. That question was put to him in this PBS interview.

You've said that ADHD doesn't have a biological marker. But that's true of the majority of times that someone comes to see a doctor, unless they have a broken leg or an obvious malady. They're diagnosed on the basis of symptoms. The art of medicine is to read symptoms and guess what the problem is and apply drug therapy or some other kind. So are you misleading people by making the point that there's no biological marker?

... All physicians take a history, and that's most important in the diagnostic process. But history-taking remains in the realm of the subjective. You get cued as to where to go on--with your physical examination or with laboratory diagnosis or with radiologic diagnosis--in your search for objective evidence of an abnormality. So I may fully suspect in the history-taking that the spells I'm being told about are seizures. I might, on the other hand, suspect that they're ... fainting spells due to cardiac arrhythmia. But certainly, before I would start electroconvulsive therapy, which is usually lifelong once a patient has been diagnosed as epileptic, I would need to find abnormalities on an EEG.

But that doesn't always apply in many cases. How would you identify someone early on, biologically, as having Parkinson's disease?

There are all sorts of objective things that the physician sees with the typical stooped, still posture as the patient comes into the office.

How is that different from a child who's jumping off the walls? That's something you can see.

Yes, but ... children's level of activities vary tremendously from one location to the other, from one to the other. ...

I'm not a doctor or a neurologist. But I know I will talk to doctors who tell me that, 70 percent of the time, they're confronted with symptoms, and we don't find biological markers before diagnosis or prescription.

There are a lot of ... busy family practitioners, busy pediatricians, busy general internists, who, under the pressure of time, do make diagnoses and do prescribe, based primarily on history. But when it comes to diagnosing something that's serious--and if we're talking something abnormal about a child's brain or something abnormal about an adult's brain--that has lifelong consequences. A diagnosis of ADHD, most psychiatrists will tell you, is going to require lifelong psychotropic medication, usually Schedule II control psychostimulants, amphetamines, of which Ritalin is one. That's an extraordinarily serious diagnosis. ...

You've got to demonstrate the characteristic confirmatory physical abnormality before you obligate that patient to lifelong treatment. I can suspect diabetes based on the history, but I've got to confirm it. I've got to know whether the blood sugar is 420 or 800. ... I can't ever start insulin treatment or any oral anti-diabetic treatment without confirmatory evidence.

Representing such things as depression, anxiety, conduct disorder, ADHD, oppositional defiant disorder, learning disabilities as diseases absent any scientific proof, is to deceive the public and is to preempt the public's right to informed consent in every single case

the similarity goes even beyond similar diagnostic techniues. our understanding of the etiology of parkinson's disease is no better than that of add. just like with add, it appears to result from a lack of dopamine, although in very different areas of the brain. unlike add, however, we don't have much of an idea of what might cause the lack of dopamine, whether it's due to lack of vesicular stores, damage or permanent downregulation of the postsynaptic dopamine receptors, or perhaps actual physical damage or death of the dopamine producing neurons in that region. however, for all his talk of how chemical imbalances can't cause disease and any disease thought to be caused this way must be a fraud, clearly parkinson's is caused by a neurochemical imbalance, and just like with add, our current technology doesn't allow the kind of lab testing that you could do to test for hypoglycemia or diabetes or anemia.

incidentally, while he mentions that there is a characteristic look to parkinson's patients, he ought to know that there are other factors that can cause parkinson's symptoms in non-parkinson's patients. there was a famous case of an underground chemist attempting to synthesise a designer heroin analogue, and he screwed up and accidentally created a different drug, called mptp. pretty much all neurologists and cognitive neuroscientists have heard of this. patients who used this drug so completely burned out their dopamine system that they suffered from parkinson's-like symptoms, even though they were in their 20s, far below the normal age for the onset of the disease and had no family history of the disease.

my point is that neurochemical imbalances are very real, and have very real effects on behavior, and it is most certainly possible for drugs to modify these imbalances, either for good or for bad. as a neurologist, dr. baughman must surely know this.

I have spent the last couple of days in very interesting conversation with a Bob Collier, one of Baughman's followers. He has a couple of sites that support that ADHD is a myth.. Won't even attempt to polute this site with his comments or the links to his site.

Anyways.. I presented a challenge to Dr. B and Mr. Collier -- Dr B was was cc"d by Mr Collier - simple challenge to put his money where his mouth is.. If he really thinks that ADHD is not real, that it is only a scam created by the medical community.. try the following

Create a Publicly Announced CONTROLLED Scientific study.. A simple one for sure. Get a number of Diagnosed, articulate ADHD ADULTS in a room for several hours. Adults because we may be better able to describe their physical feelings.

Make sure that none of these individuals haven't taken any form of medication or suppliments. Then interview them/us, see how they/we are, what they/we are like.. Ask them to describe their emotions, their feelings - have them/us perform complex tasks. Tasks that we have difficulty performing or following through.

Then have us/them take their medication and interview them again .

I suggested that the test must be performed in a Controlled environment and for fairness and neutrality, there must be ADHD Medical Experts who are also involved with the questioning and research. In fact out of fairness there should be a meta study (meta-analysis combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses) so that there will be no doubt or concern.

This challenge was offered to Collier on Monday Morning, and was forwarded to dr. b about an hour ago. At this time, I got a lot of foot dancing from Collier, where the challenge has not been acknowledged.. Hmm, I wonder, could it possibly be that we may Actually be able to Prove once and for all that there has been so many advancements in science, and even more discoveries since the DR has retired in 1999?

As I asked in my email, what does he have to lose if he "really" believes in what many believe to be totally unsupported personal thoughts and rhetoric.

I will advise the group to his response..

But, I did suggest that there would be many who would be willing to have him put up or shut up..

What are your thoughts?
Karen M

We could always offer to send him all of our unmedicated hyperactive children for a week I can even throw in a hyperactive spouse free of charge. After the week is over then we shall see who is hallucinating. . . .

!!!ACK!!!Freakin' Scientologist. I've been researching as a skeptic since 1998 and then I get this? Grrrr. I need to read more in depth...

Out there on the web there will be the peer reviewed double blind trials of all the drugs licenced for ADHD treatment.

If these trials do not exist then there is a problem.

Only by including a placebo in the test/trial can it be statistically valid, particularly when dealing with unmeasureable outcomes such as improved wellbeing that are the objective of ADHD medication.

As you will see from the link here http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43658 referring to the destruction of 15 years worth of data following children with ADHD like SYMPTOMS in Sweden after individuals with an alleged but unproven links to Scientology attempted to use the courts to gain public access to the underlying data.

The researchers had (rightly in my view) argued that they had given a promise of confidentiality to the subjects and consequently could not release the underlying data into the public domain as in such a small population as Sweden the records could not be anonymised sufficiently to prevent identification of most if not all the subjects.

Given the nature of many of the issues confronting individuals with ADHD like SYMPTOMS (note I do NOT say ADHD diagnoses) the release of intimate details of mental health, illegal drug use, relationship and marital problems, promiscuity, financial mismanagement, sexual history and the like even the possibility that this data could be released to the wider world would make most potential subjects wary of taking part in trials.......which of course strengthens the hand of those wishing to "prove" there is no scientific evidence for ADHD like symptoms being linked to a common neurological and treatable cause.

Because of the subjective nature of many of the diagnosing symptoms and our lack of understanding of the nature of how the brain works sceptics and charlatans will always have plenty of ammunition to support their own pet theories particuarly if scientific research is hindered and academics and researchers have to defend themselves in courts.

kilt

Anyways.. I presented a challenge to Dr. B and Mr. Collier -- Dr B was was cc"d by Mr Collier - simple challenge to put his money where his mouth is.. If he really thinks that ADHD is not real, that it is only a scam created by the medical community.. try the following

Create a Publicly Announced CONTROLLED Scientific study..
The difficulty with any of these scientific studies is that the Scientologists and other pseudoscientists have no interest in whether something is proven or unproven. They have a raw opinion and do whatever they have to do to maintain that opinion. If what they had was a theory which they wanted to investigate, prove or disprove, they would have already dug into the existing literature or added to it with their own studies.

So, a study such as you describe would be a complete waste of time, if its purpose was to change the minds of Dr. B. and his cohorts. Also, they would easily make the case that the people in the room would know whether they were supposed to be affected or not, therefore they could get all goofy for the first session -- deliberately so -- and then get all controled for the second session.

Since the difficulty of ADHD lies in the ability to control attention and focus, ADHD deniers can easily make the case that since the condition does not exist, anything that indicates it does exist is a result of control being exerted in order to demonstrate lack of control. Crazy, but there you are.

Ducky

Hi Guys,
thanks for answering. Actually I was one of the members of a controlled study for stratterra at the san diego university. Pretty cool experience. The Controlled studies must be acknowledged and okayed by the board of psychiatry; the questions would be created and instrumented by both doctors pro and con, thus the research would be fair, valid, accurate, precise, and honest. Very little room for wiggle.

They will also recognize the concerns that are mentioned, like people "pretending" or such like.. that is also why there are extensive interviews before one even becomes a member of the studies - my interview process to get on the research with staterra was very intensive.

Since I sent that initial email to bob collier (bc to dr b) there were about a dozen email exchanges, the last two were after I asked him to quit sending me emails unless they were willing to take the challenge. Put up or shut up!

NOT once were they willing to consider or address the challenge in Any way! the emails were full of the same old rhetoric that they spout. No scientific data, no proof. Nothing.

This is the same people who also say that depression, anxiety, OCC and other disorders are myths.

The biggest concern is that B is very influential, and the louder he get's the bigger his "movement" gets that eventually the FDA may end up giving into the pressure, and we may find it more difficult to obtain medications, or even worse, the drug companies will find it more challenging and will spend less time finding better medications for us.

Today the ADHD is considered one of the best researched disorder in American History. Unfortunately it is only in the past decade or more that the reality is that We don't grow out of it after the age of 14 - and more and more Adults are finally able to find the help we need. (very frustrating decade of my life was spent trying to get help)

There is still so much to learn about ADD/ADHD, and I am hoping that people like Dr B. and cronies will not put the damper on this area with their lack of informed proof, but personal prejudices.

It is imperative that we become as Loud as they do, and fight for OUR RIGHTS TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED.

Karen M.

It is imperative that we become as Loud as they do, and fight for OUR RIGHTS TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED.


Some of us are and have been for over a decade. Naturally the negative is what draws the most attention thus the most media.

Here is a thread (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=479726#post479726) addressing just such a thing. You may be intersted in some of the responses.

At least Tom Cruise shot himself in the foot over the summer of 2005. "You're being glib, Matt! You don't know the history of psychiatry; I do!" and of course his manic couch jumping antics, PDAs with KatieBot2000, tell Brooke Shields that vitamins will cure PPD, etc. He has instrumental in exposing the craziness that makes up Scientology.

This quack doctor won't do too much in terms of real scientific R&D. The general public won't ever see him at seminars. The only ones who'll be receptive to his (read: Scientology) theories will be other brainwashed minions and people in search of a "cure" because they're in denial.

Tom, darling, please come out and admit you're gay and ADD. It's okay...we'll like you even more!

Unfortunately the Dr even though retired prior to much of the many major discoveries of this disorder is firmly rooted, established and acknowledged in the Science world. Was on the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology; and a fellow on American Academy of Neurology

He is frequently invited to speak at many of the conferences, he has testified before the FDA, Congress, the European Union, and the Parliament of Western Australia. Many of his articles appear in the leading scientific journals accross the world. He is often called to be an expert witness and has done so in several landmark cases, and yes, even received awards.

I unfortunately am unable to diminish his influence, and it is concerning. Even though his campaigning started in 1969, and it has been predominately based upon children it doesn't seem to stop others in acknowledging his beliefs

I didn't want to create an image of distinguishment about this person, because obviously based upon personal, real life experience, it is obvious that he does Not really aware of what he is saying. but, unfortunately, he continues to have a very strong following.

Which is why we must Stand up for our rights to be acknowledged as well

I have spent the last couple of days in very interesting conversation with a Bob Collier, one of Baughman's followers. He has a couple of sites that support that ADHD is a myth..

Okay allow me to. . .gotta give ADDer some thing to sink thier teeth into = some one will do though.

I googled up his name

lead me here (http://www.adhd-report.com/letter.html)

The guys had a contact me link {his mistake}so I did.

----------------------------------a copy---------------------------------


Bob Collier,

Ya know why I do not write news letters about the mating practices of hump back whales? Because I have about as much experiences with whale mating practices as you do ADD.{neurobiology in general}


As a dyslexic and an ADDer I find your comments rather ill informed

{quote}And the observed manifestations of the child's internal struggle with reading now become that 'disorder's' 'diagnostic criteria' {End Quote}

They have found biological marker for dyslexia. In other wards they can look at the energy usage/patterns while people are reading and spot the ones with dyslexia.

Biological Psychiatry
Volume 57, Issue 11, 1 June 2005, Pages 1301-1309

Sally E. Shaywitz , and Bennett A. Shaywitz
National Institute of Child Health and Human Development-Yale Center for the Study of Learning and Attention, New Haven, Connecticut.
Received 23 June 2004; revised 2 December 2004; accepted 27 January 2005. Available online 8 April 2005.

{Quote}Recent advances in imaging technology, particularly the development of functional magnetic resonance imaging, provide evidence of a neurobiological signature for dyslexia{End Quote}


So dyslexia exist. I do not starve so I haven’t experienced it first hand however it would be illogical for me to claim starvation doesn’t exist.


. The sad truth is judging by your news letter I really think you believe you are helping, That is the only reason I bothered with a response.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n5/024800/024800.text.html?erFrom=4763137806171254018Guest


Am. J. Hum. Genet., 72:1251-1260, 2003
A Whole-Genome Scan in 164 Dutch Sib Pairs with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder: Suggestive Evidence for Linkage on Chromosomes 7p and 15q

{Quote}
In conclusion, this whole-genome scan in ADHD has located several susceptibility loci, two of which on chromosome regions 7p and 15q are suggestive for linkage. The chromosome 15 region is particularly interesting, since it has been implicated in autism and reading disability
{End Quote}

This is not concrete but neither is the opinion of some scientologist no matter how well known.


In case you simply do not do science, I also have some questions regarding the logic behind making the claims you have in your newsletter.


Making claims of ADD being fraudulent while at the same time admitting

{Your exact quote}
I'm possibly the only person involved in the 'ADHD debate' that I know of who has no first-hand experience of the problem whatsoever{End Quote}

Gee this isn't listed in the DSMV as a disorder I wonder why?. Is ill informed assumptions considered “normal”?.


Your experience and education with ADD, dyslexia or bipolar would consist of


{Your Exact Quote}
I spotted the newspaper item about 'ADHD' a few months later because I'd become 'tuned in' to parenting matters. It made me suspicious. I noticed a few more articles about 'ADHD' on the internet. I discovered the 'diagnostic criteria' for 'ADHD'. When I read the list, my immediate thought was, "This is bullsh*t". I wanted to know what it was all about. Everything else has simply grown willy-nilly from there{End Quote}

Willy Nilly this would be an excellent description of your education and experience with ADD, bipolar and dyslexia yet you feel qualified to publish your opinion as a parenting advisor? . At least you were decent enough to be honest. Although claims like yours actually make life even more difficult for people like me I get the impression you are probably a pretty nice guy. .


Your sole source of belief is based upon

{your exact quote}
It transpires that I agree with Dr. Fred Baughman: 'ADHD' is a total 100% fraud{End Quote}

Gee my first source has twice as many people’s opinions does that mean I win?

{Your exact quote}"My educated guess is...", or "My experience suggests that..." or "I don't really know...", which, as I understand it,{End Quote}

More punishing of the truth? Would you feel better if they lied and said they had a blood test for ADD? Public flogging professionals who are being truthful another illogical but “normal” practice.


{Your exact quote}At least, that's my current perception (I've worn out the pages of my dictionary this year trying to get my head around these things!).{End Quote}


Does this mean you are admitting you do not know what you are talking about? What sort of logic inspires one to claim conditions are fake and a profession is a fraud while admitting you don’t really understand it.

{Your exact Quote}the child's behavior is essentially the way they have learned to respond automatically to a particular set of circumstances.{End Quote}

The genetic studies which you obviously do not understand found genetically identical twins separated at birth and brought up in two different environment still have a much higher incidence of both having ADD when compared to non-identical twins reared in the same environment. These studies falsify the learned behavior theory and several have falsified the diet theory. Meaning the above quote is inaccurate.


{Your Exact Quote}Because that kind of behavior is in conflict with the organizational goals of the school system, it's perceived as a deviation from normal (expected) behavior. In other words, it becomes an 'abnormality'{quote}

I’ll give you half a point for accuracy in the above statement. I can’t give you a full point because

The TERM abnormal – means deviated from normal. Having a blood sugar between 70-120 is normal having one of 200 means glucose values abducted {move away from} from the norm -i.e. NOT normal{hyperglycemia}


– normal has a RANGE.


{Your exact quote}but, whatever, the teacher's had enough, the parents have had enough and somebody calls in the professionals.{End Quote}

If your child had a fever and you did every thing you knew how yet the fever remained out of control what would you do?

What exactly do you expect a parent to do when they have done all they know to do yet still have a child who can not sit still in class? I noticed you have no offering in this department yet you are claiming to help. This isn't help it simply adds to the confusion.

ADD meaning being unable to consciously control our direction of focus or length of attention span

Now ONE thing you did get right – ADD's impairment is contextually based. The persons environment does determine the amount or severity of trait “impairment”. This is my position as an ADD person which is why your words are so infuriating. We have to put up with the “normals” complaining we are not like them so we take medication so we can be more like “the normals” and then we have to put up with people like you who come along and begrudge us that. What to be of assistance quit kicking people who are down . What would help is if all you anti-psychology people would direct your energies toward changing educational and professional environments so we do not have to take the damn pills to function in a manner that is not normal to us. Changing the social and professional expectations so we who have ADD could function without chemical alterations would be part of the solution. Right now you people are simply adding to the contextual problem for those of us who have enough already.

Last but NOT Least


{Your Exact quote}didn't get a brain scan or even a blood test; it was decided by ticking boxes on a questionnaire.{End Quote}

How would I know you loved your children or your wife? Would you get a brain scan or a blood test? Maybe I would have a more accurate idea if I simply observed your behavior. Some of the most powerful forces known to mankind are only know via observation. A concept worthy of consideration

I have spent the last couple of days in very interesting conversation with a Bob Collier, one of Baughman's followers. He has a couple of sites that support that ADHD is a myth.. Won't even attempt to polute this site with his comments or the links to his site.

Anyways.. I presented a challenge to Dr. B and Mr. Collier -- Dr B was was cc"d by Mr Collier - simple challenge to put his money where his mouth is.. If he really thinks that ADHD is not real, that it is only a scam created by the medical community.. try the following

Create a Publicly Announced CONTROLLED Scientific study.. A simple one for sure. Get a number of Diagnosed, articulate ADHD ADULTS in a room for several hours. Adults because we may be better able to describe their physical feelings.

Make sure that none of these individuals haven't taken any form of medication or suppliments. Then interview them/us, see how they/we are, what they/we are like.. Ask them to describe their emotions, their feelings - have them/us perform complex tasks. Tasks that we have difficulty performing or following through.

Then have us/them take their medication and interview them again .

I suggested that the test must be performed in a Controlled environment and for fairness and neutrality, there must be ADHD Medical Experts who are also involved with the questioning and research. In fact out of fairness there should be a meta study (meta-analysis combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses) so that there will be no doubt or concern.

This challenge was offered to Collier on Monday Morning, and was forwarded to dr. b about an hour ago. At this time, I got a lot of foot dancing from Collier, where the challenge has not been acknowledged.. Hmm, I wonder, could it possibly be that we may Actually be able to Prove once and for all that there has been so many advancements in science, and even more discoveries since the DR has retired in 1999?

As I asked in my email, what does he have to lose if he "really" believes in what many believe to be totally unsupported personal thoughts and rhetoric.

I will advise the group to his response..

But, I did suggest that there would be many who would be willing to have him put up or shut up..

What are your thoughts?
Karen Mthoughts.thats too long for me to read,,,:eek:
adhd'll do that

Mead
Way cool letter and great job.. No doubt he will respond, and yes, his responses are rather amusing, but also indeed quite irritating as well .. You may also find that after the 2nd or third response from him that he will be b:cc the dr.

please Keep us updated for sure.. And definitely thumbs up for being a voice.

I wonder how we (Individuals pro ADHD) can create and establish a loud influential presence to counteract what these individuals have been doing. Noticed today that the guy from ritalin death recently received an award from the Citizens Commission on Human Rights -- they also created an association as well..

Thanks so much for your outstanding contribution.
Karen

I wonder how we (Individuals pro ADHD) can create and establish a loud influential presence to counteract what these individuals have been doing.

How? Simple beating them at their own game, being unafraid to speak ones minds or stand up for ones beliefs. The key is to remember nothing is personal. What they say is a reflection of who they are and what they believe having nothing to do with me as a person. In the end it is all really a strategic game much like a game of chess but instead of using pieces on a board I use my brain. I have been doing responses like this for over 15 years.

For the past couple of years I have been working on my debates skills so I am now used to dealing with opposing opinions , persuasive presentations and even personal attacks from time to time. Knowing there are others also willing to stand up for the same principles gives me hope. Places of support like this one is a perfect way to meet such individuals and gain much needed support and have a chance to exchange ideas.

thoughts.thats too long for me to read,,,:eek:
adhd'll do thatsame here

I think that being vocal about finding pseudoscience to be unacceptable is a good start.
It won't stop the pseudoscience pandering. Those guys know that they are selling snake oil. It's simply how they make their living. In fact, controversy often works in their favor.

Strong public opinion against scams and pseudoscience gets the attention of the authorities and it gets the attention of the medical establishment... both of which are historically soft on quackery, but strong public opinion makes them take notice and then things get done. The people who make money on scams and misinformation know this and are usually smart enough to back down once public opinion breing pressure on them to straighten up. So yes, being vocal is a good first step to take.

ME :D

Mead,
indeed, but again the How? Unfortunately too many of us are Not paying notice to the Power these individuals have. Ever wonder why there hasn't been an improvement in the drugs we use? That is because the pharmaceuticals are nervous about the lawsuits these guys are getting involved in. Dang, these guys have been in front of the Senate and House pushing their rhetoric, and unfortunately they keep gaining influential voices.

They may be considered quacks by us, because We Know, We experience, but, they have the loud voices. The voices WE have been lacking. Who has been at the senate proving our case? Sharing our stories? Our pain? Who have been fighting for more development and acceptance? definitely not the averge Joe and Jill like myself who wants once and for all to be accepted and recognized - No, I don't act out just to get attention; No, I will never be organized in all areas of my life, no matter how hard I try;

If Teachers were taught to help us learn to express the beauty, turn our challenges into gifts, allow us to focus on the AREAS that make us sparkle, that Yes, I don't need to learn algebra in college to be a lawyer, just put me through law school, because THAT is what I can concentrate on, and I will be the be the best darn lawyer ever. Let us learn to embrace our gifts instead of wondering why we were so different, and turning those gifts into negatives.

But, unfortunately as long as we don't stand up for the fight, these guys will create the diversions so that create more roadblocks for our success.

Sorry for my being longwinded, and sorry for the long letters.. and sorry for the passion, but Yes, I am nervous. I have been watching these guys for a decade, and i keep seeing them build in forces. Today, when searching for info on ADHD, I find MORE of the Negative than I find the positive...

Do you realize the damage that is creating to the parent of the newly diagnosed child? or to the adult who experiences the pain of adhd.. to hear sorry charlie, but your disease, what you are feeling isn't real? it is all made up!

Mead, we need more people like You! We need more of US standing in front of Congress, and we need to find ways to prove OUR case to the Voices that matter.

Off my soap box, but I hope that maybe, just maybe..

excuse an error, the DR retired in 1993

ndeed, but again the How?

Incorporating those with other conditions as well as NTer living with ADDers and rearing ADDers.

It doesn't seem like many changes have occurred when I am sitting here reading dogma from anti-ADD proponents . However when I compare thing now to when I got diagnosed in 1993 things have changed a lot.

IN 1993 there wasn't any on-line communities like this one. Although I believe here at ADDF we are the largest I know we are not the only ADD community.

When I got diagnosed with ADD in 1993 the only support group that met in person in my town was CHADD and they dealt solely with children. They told me an adult ADD support group would not get off the ground. True to my ADD nature I didn't listen. By 1995 the adult support group Distract integrated with the CHADD group at CHADD's invitation.

In 1993 less than a month after diagnosis I had read all three books on ADD available in my public library.They all dealt with children. I had only seen one that considered the possibility adults had it - it was simply titled "Adult ADD" and it wasn't in the library. I am not sure where my mother got it worse yet I am not sure what I did with it after she gave it to me. I was diagnosed a year before Edward Hallowell published "Driven to Distraction"

A lot has changed sense then.

How do you succeed? First define success.

Then - put one foot in front of the other and believe in your purpose. Research your *** off when the need arises and believe you can make a positive difference even if it is just a small one. Make the best attempt possible to educate and do not let fear of failure make decisions for you. . Get distracted from people who tell you your ideas are not possible unless they also offer modification of how they can become possible.

Truth is stranger than fiction

excuse an error, the DR retired in 1993

I noticed the DR retired the same year I was diagnosed ADHD.

Sorry for my being longwinded, and sorry for the long letters.. and sorry for the passion, but Yes, I am nervous.

Wow this is long winded? Long letters hmm I don't think these are long. Nervous well some times that happens but I quit being or is it I am too ADHD to know I am nervous any way I do the best I can. I do not expect to change their mind I mostly wonder if they have enough of mind to understand the fact I have one of my own. When my freedom to choose how to treat my conditions is challenged I just step out do the best I can and what happens is what happens. I believe "Life" prepares me as I need to be prepared.


No doubt he will respond, and yes, his responses are rather amusing, but also indeed quite irritating as well .. You may also find that after the 2nd r third response from him that he will be b:cc the dr.


Well you are correct he did respond with one exception he b;cc to the doctor with his first reply to me. Could it be the ADHD? Maybe it is the debating practice I have been doing the past couple of years. . . oh well his response was a hyperlink to a page with more flawed logic than the one I initially reposed to.I shall share his response.


----------------------------------Copy His response--------------------------

Copy to Fred Baughman Jr., MD. www.adhdfraud.com


Hi, Tammy

Thank you for writing.

Please do not reply to this message as you will receive this same message in response.

I refer you to this page at my website:

Barry Turner and ADHd = more dogma.com (http://www.parental-intelligence.com/barryturner.html)

Also to my e-book How The American Psychiatric Association Tried To Scam Me And What I Did About It, which you can download and read from here:

more of the same flawed logic disguised by the word intelligent (http://www.parental-intelligence.com/HTAPATTSM.html)

With best wishes,

Bob Collier
-------------------------------------End Copy----------------------------------

Begin my response two --------------------------------------------


OMG tell me this is warm up exercise. This uses the same contradictions in logic your news letter does.



Example – special attention to underlines portions please.



{Quote from the Berry Turner response}



It is now and ever has been irrelevant what scientists 'believe'. It is not the scientist's job to 'believe'. The word means searcher after the truth not believer. I work in a forensic and biomedical science department staffed by scientists several of whom are either devout Christians or Moslems. They however are level headed individuals who take science seriously and approach their day jobs with scientific vigour, incidentally they don't 'believe' in ADHD either. {End Quote}



First sentence says it { irrelevant } what scientist believe, in the center it list their religious beliefs and ends with the fact they do not believe in ADD. According to your own logic the fact they do not believe in ADD is { irrelevant} If this is logic I can see where the existence of ADD may be extremely difficult to grasp.


I was looking forward to a decent intellectual challenge Please tell me you have more than this is back up your claims heck I am just getting warmed up. . .



It is apparent by your response you either did not read my e-mail or failed to understand my e-mail. I shall repeat my question in a more simplified manner.



Please explain your obvious contradictions in reasoning. As shown in the example above your presentations contradict them selves even if I use only the line of reasoning you present. When my own line of reasoning is applied your logic borders on possible mental confusion. Seriously Why would you open a letter accusing ADHDers of not researching their presentation with a paragraph that contradicts it self?



I also noticed you completely ignored the fact that love, hate and greed do not have labs test, scans, or symptoms out side of the realm of subjective opinion. Heck love, hate, and greed do not even have a medical basis at all yet they are some of the most powerful forces of human nature. Are you purposing they don’t exist either?







Please DO note I did NOT ask you about the history of the DSMV I am already aware of it. I am ADHD NOT stupid. Please do not try and side step my questions with some bias propaganda about the DSMV. According to your introduction your opinions about ADD are greatly influenced by some lawyer who wants to make money BIG by suing the drug companies. I find it very interesting that your publication and those produced by groups affiliated with scientology freely mention he is a member of staff at “University of Lincoln” but fail to include the entire proper name Barry Turner’s employer “ school of Journalism/University of Lincoln” Berry Turner is a lawyer who lectures at a journalism school The scoop on Berry Turner - staff member at Lincoln (http://www.lsj.lincoln.ac.uk/page.php?id=228&ref=1&str=)


Which btw has nothing to do with science or medicine. {even in the brains of your average ADDer }


I also know that



The primary purpose of the DSM is to facilitate communication among mental health professionals The DSMV was designed to help health care professional distinguish between normal variations in personality traits from extreme manifestations that cause "dysfunction" . This would be the opposite of your claims. Mental traits are give specific names when a behavior deviates from the normal range enough to interfere with an individual ability to function for the same reason medical doctors assign certain physical traits with subjective labels to physical behaviors that deviate from normal. These are all common human behaviors however when they become extreme they are given clinical names. . An easy example is Polyuria {frequent urination} : polydipsia {excessive thirst} , polyphagia {excessive hunger} – common signs of diabetes.



As you can tell I do my home work quiet well.



I doubt any of us would care one way or the other if such believes were presented in their true light. Don’t want to believe in ADD fine by me however when you begin to make false accusations using contradictory logic in an effort to decrease my freedom to believe how I see fit and make choices based upon my personal beliefs then I begin to have a serious problem with your opinion. You do not want to challenge “true believers” then quit presenting your beliefs as facts in an effort influence legislation.



Yet I read in your text you do not want to engage "ADHD believers". I have a strong enough basis for my perspectives to be capable of handling opposing points of view in a reasonably civilized manner.



Now my final question is



Do you?


--------------------------------------End Copy---------------------------------

I hope this guy

#1 doesn't mistakenly think the " Fred Baughman Jr., MD" is going to intimidate me. Debating medical doctor one at a time I got over with a year after my diagnosis. Debating PhD's in multiplies is some thing I have already done here. Matter of fact I got this debating PhD's in multiples done at the same time I learned moderating ADDF 1301 & 1302.

I multi-task.

#2 If the doctor does get involved I hope the good doctor is more of a challenge.

Any way there is my update for any who are interested.

they won't debate with you -
they know that they will lose.

When vested interests have a vested interest in misinformation -
the threat of information is too much for them to stand.

In truth - they're doing what many do - the immoral act of hiding where no scientific model exists - and intentionally abusing their position by stating that they are correct.

Unless somebody proves them wrong - they'll continue.

Actually (not completely correct) -
proving them wrong will not achieve much - as they wield the piece of paper which states that they know best
- the so-called 'medical degree' -

- impossible to debate meaningfully against an inequality.

So - I guess *not* proving them wrong - instead replacing whichever area of ignorance which they exploit - with proper explanation.
and they'll then fold.

-*-

The argument appears to be that ADD does not exist
Meds should not be given - especially these nasty meds which turn our kids into drug addicts.
The argument appears to be that mind does not exist.

-*-

It's real silly - all of that stance.

*Real* silly.

We shouldn't complain - we should explain.
It's no good saying that X,Y,Z is bad - without explanation ?why?

-*-

This entire argument goes away when we have a model for mind.
(which we (ADDF) do) -

this argument will deliver the conclusion that ADD is an evolutionary advancement with the appearance of a disorder because of the evolved form of mind feeling 'trapped' within current legacy society.
For 'trapped' read pathological boredom - and
for pathological boredom - read *real* pain - since lacking in neural stimulation is not up for debate -
- it's the flipside of the evolved state of ADD

--- we get better minds - however - with condition that if we do not use them - that they will eat us alive.

I am not joking.

The meds simply supply some of the 'reward' which we can supply ourself for ourself (by endogenous delivery)
- given mind operating in an environment where it is whirring optimally -
challenged
(but not overly - just sufficiently) -
where sufficiently >> the sufficiently of its pre-evolutionary state mind comparator.

-*-

The meds are exogenous delivery of
Dopmine
Serotonin
NorAdrenaline

'agonism'
throught potentiation by
amphetamine binding to the VMATs (TeXANs) -
which result in nt re-uptake occurring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMAT
->'The vesicular monoamine transporter is a transport protein located within the presynaptic cell. It comprises the two isoforms:
VMAT1
VMAT2'

-> the same VMAT involved in
Dop
Ser
NE

re-uptake ->
and VMAT resulting in stopping activity

amphetamine antagonistic behaviour versus Dop Ser NE
-> results in
Dop
Ser
NE

biological activities in the external milieu being potentiated -

- and hence 'reward' felt (potentiated)

(-> and that's all there is to it)
:-)

-*-

The meds simply supply some of the 'reward' which we can supply ourself for ourself (by endogenous delivery)

-> 'reward' which we have not earned
- to prevent the 'reward' which we must have

Endogenous 'reward' is the result of appropriate (high) levels of neural firing -
neural stimulation

The meds simply supply some of the 'reward' which we can supply ourself for ourself (by endogenous delivery)


and since
neural STIMULATION -> reward

we'd need to increase our level of STIMULATION using other means -

we all know the illicit forms of stimulation ->
which do us no good (but which satisfy mind or rather brain)

where brain instantiates mind instantiates us

we all know the illicit forms of stimulation ->
which do us no good
and which are rife within our society now -

--- so we need to ask why?

And the answer will be a perspective in on EVERYTHING that matters to man with mind
and society will not like what it sees.

-*-

A collective blame for the environmental problems which result in the common mental disorders

A collective blame
- though (for sure) - groups of our society are going to prove less amenable to change ->
-> though they will *not* put up serious resistance -

- because their ridiculous wealth (->rid->icu->lous->$$$wealth$$$ is a pointer in on the groups which will be found listed under the heading
groups of our society which are going to prove less amenable to change

-> will have kids who will exhibit the tendencies of well built mind (through attendance at better schools and with better learning practices at their disposal)

-> ADD

-> will have kids
who will rebel against their parents' means.

-*-

If there's one way of changing people (parents) - it's through threat posed by (recrimination) and to their own kids (by themselves)

- and most will change under the fear of hurting their own kids

-> the change will lead to better society

-> the change which is applied to one's own children - will have effect on the community of children or society of the next generation

... and we'll see change.

-*-

So - in a nutshell -

ADD exists
The meds work

... though I can't wait till ADD switches its name to Homo neosapiens subsp. sapienses and that time

Stabile (a little over 3 years ago (here) ~ADDF~)
- the epiphany - when the medication no longer work.
~paraphrase~

and

So - in a nutshell - (in the very near future)

nonADD won't exist
The meds - will not be necessary (will not work).

Hi SB.

Some of the individuals with ridiculous wealth exhibit symptoms found in DSM-IV with the exception that they are regarded by capitalist society as being successful regardless of the misery they leave in their wake.

I like the term ridiculous in this context....implies the single minded acquisition of wealth to such a degree that the individual should be ridiculed by right minded society.

I suspect that many wealthy and egotistical individuals would not want to see many of their traits appearing in public as diagnostic of mental dysfunction and sociopathy.

The doctor doth protest too much methinks?

kilt

The argument appears to be that ADD does not exist
Meds should not be given - especially these nasty meds which turn our kids into drug addicts.

You mean those addictive medications I forget to take all the time?

Man I wish cigarettes were as addicting as my Adderall, I would never smoke again because I would forget. I know addiction personally. Smoking is addicting Adderall isn't.



The argument appears to be that mind does not exist.

For some it may not.



This entire argument goes away when we have a model for mind.
(which we (ADDF) do) -

Most excellent idea. . . . may use that if the debate advances that far. Right now it is still preliminary,I was being truthful when I said I am just getting warmed up.{they haven't a clue} I am not sure what these guys understand and what they do not. So far logic doesn't seem to be their strong point. Writing a complete paragraph that doesn't contradict itself seems to be a challenge understanding Stabile would be out this present person's league.Apparently the conversation is being tracked by others who may actually have some thing resembling logic or at least a modified version I can work with.





we get better minds - however - with condition that if we do not use them - that they will eat us alive.

I am not joking.

Like I said theses guys have no idea, to me this is a freaking game. A serious one but none the less a game much like chess= it is all about strategy. Except here words are the peices life is the game board.

Besides a challenge would be stimulating in an appropriate manner. {if they can maintain civil behavior that is} Heck they still think I am main stream. . . .more than likely these people are like most whom I have debated = they believe I have only one available perspective from which to choose. I told them my position already but that isn't necessarily a clue to my game plan - plan?????? = heck I am making this up as I go along. {The ADD way}:D




A collective blame
- though (for sure) - groups of our society are going to prove less amenable to change ->
-> though they will *not* put up serious resistance -

I doubt I will change any of them so I will settle for the stimulation of challenging my own abilities to strengthen my position and control my mental energies while under fire from opposing perspectives. If our muscles are never challenged they will atrophy, it is much the same with the mind. I am not a passive learner neither is my mind.

Maybe I will get lucky and at least one of them will have a brain and I will get a decent mental work out. As far as changing their minds the best I can hope for is to get at least one person with a mind who'll stop and go hmmmmmm.

Basically I have heard their dogma first through Scuro and later in the media. So I just gotta see for my self {if possible} exactly what these anti- psychiatry people are made of. I figured those here also deserve to see what we are up against. It will either ally fears or help us prepare. . .the main idea is the same as it is with all debates = to learn as much as possible about others opposing {and in this case threatening} perspectives and to analyze their reasoning. Much of "winning" {should such a thing actually exist} is placing ones self in a position to, while remembering their is many more than two directions from which to choose.



The meds - will not be necessary

Exactly . . . . .



We are not who they think we are = they have not a clue. ;)


I have received a reply. Hmmmm I must have really pi**ed him off I think he hit the send button three times. . . I will open and share tomorrow. Tonight I am giving it a break - commonly referred to as a strategic pause and pleasure break.

This Scientology guys are into hyperlinks probably because they have no real argument so I decided I should throw a few of my own hyperlinks into this discussion


xenu,net -SCIENTOLOGY (http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/9.htm)


operation clambake (http://www.xenu.net/)



scientology illustrated version (http://www.xenu.net/archive/scientology_illustrated/)

Naturally all here know why Scientology is so against the psychiatric profession?

Psychiatry and Scientology (http://www.solitarytrees.net/pubs/psyscn.htm)

Dianetics Doctrine (http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/dndoc.htm)

Now you know why Scientology oppose ADD and other psychiatric conditions because psychiatry is seen as "competition" instead of doing what most would do = make a better product for less cost these people seek to bad mouth the other guys product while offering a inferior substitute at an increased cost.

Maybe Scuro had one good point.

I do hope Mr Collier and company enjoy my hyperlinks as much as I have enjoyed theirs.

Now to go check out the clambake dude he seems cool, he is open to debates. He posted this on his site

{Quote=Andreas Heldal-Lund }

Many Scientologists write to me claiming this, and each of them are challenged to specify and argue their claim. Most of them never reply. Those who do usually only repeat their accusations. If I ever get a proper reply with references to where the "exaggerations" and "distortions" are, I promise to host it on my page if the author allows me. {End Quote}

He does exactly what he says he will do he does have a few postings by scientologist but they are pretty lame. For the most part he has had the same experiences with these anti-psychiatry people as we have - a bunch of accusations against the opposing sides {psychiatry} because they have nothing to support their perspective {like facts}.

I read some where Scientology is really a religion of money.

So for all you who are looking for comrades in arms against these guys I think I have provided some leads into others who feel the same way. It may not seem like an ADD thing on the surface but as several have pointed out these people claim our ADD condition and treatment to be a fraud and frankly I think that has a lot to do with ADD in general.

Hope this helps karenm. :)

Thank you Mead. I've been a regular visitor to Operation Clambake for close to a decade. To find out they believe in space cooties clinging to our bodies because of evil galactic overload alien dude sent DC9 aircraft into Teegeeack's (Earth's original name) volcanos , that we're descended from clams (!), and that all our problems are caused by the reactive mind...what utter BS.

To the everyday person, Scientology is a bunch of whackjobs. Like I said upstream, Tom Cruise has done more to harm their cause; who will take this seriously? To see Kirstie Alley, Kelly Preston, and the Presley's march on Washington to end psychiatry? Looks good in theory but millions of people have been helped by psychiatry. Besides, what is Scientology but a crazed version of psychiatry?

I urge anyone who has at least a passing interest to visit http://www.xenu.net to see what they're about. I don't believe that people who are Scientologists are stupid; I believe they were caught at a vulnerable time in their lives and were offered a lifeline they couldn't refuse.

Looks good in theory but millions of people have been helped by psychiatry. Besides, what is Scientology but a crazed version of psychiatry?


I agree that clambake has the most extensive information library on Scientology and they are a very good source.

I guess the thing that annoys me the most is SCIENTOLOGY false information sites strategically placed so that people looking for ADD information will be exposed to their horse hockey along side the "real" information provided by legit health care professionals and research scientist.This creates some confusion among those who are simply searching for information because Scientology doesn't make it known that they are behind the sites spreading ADHD misinformation.

Also people who speak out against ADD are often misrepresented by confusing titles and half truths. In my example above about Barry Hunter his title is meant to look like it is medical and only half of his employees name is mentioned. I had to do some searching to find out the man is a lawyer who likes to sue drug companies and he is employed at a journalism school. Few people are going to go through this extensive searching as I did but before taking some "experts" word about ADD and other mental health conditions they really should. Notice this Pat Collier quit wanting to talk to me after he found out I discovered who Barry Turner actually was. Guess he was afraid I might just uncover who he actually was - Scientologist speading faulse information about ADHD..

These scientologist also cause the cost of medication to raise due to the frivolous law suites they wage against the drug manufactures every time some one has a negative effect to a medication.

Example :

1994-06-08 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, INC. Plaintiff
ELI LILLY AND CO., Hill & Knowlton, Inc., et al. Defendants

1994-05-03 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY, INTERNATIONAL, Plaintiff
ELI LILLY & CO., Hill & Knowlton, Inc., et al., Defendants

Information provided by

Operation Clambake present:
Scientology Court Files (http://www.xenu.net/archive/CourtFiles/)

These law suites mean the drug manufactures have to pay for a defense. That money comes from one place - us who need the medications they make.

Also SCIENTOLOGY propaganda convinces many ill informed that ADD and other conditions are a fraud. The public at large is basically ill informed about ADD and other conditions, unfortunately law makers that make the law concerning medications are also part of that ill informed public.

problems arise when policy makers are ill-informed.

For the most part - these guys aren't aware of the responsibility - merely revel in the power - gazing into the mirror at their adorable comb over.

So -
- the highly powered self-crazed power mongers who enjoy their money and status - need to create the illusion that they're in charge - and justify their inflated salary.

What then happens - is the pointless system.

I see this everywhere I go - these days - and that's the system which cements their importance by preventing some essential function - without their 'say so'.

These individuals thereby - force themselves upon others - and maintain their position of power through -
it can be as small as a 'blind' signature.

I've heard -

'you're only as good as the number of boards you sit on'
or -
'it's who you know,
not what you know'
1,2 -> make SB angry.

Classical example'd be repeat (medical) prescriptions -
or prescriptions even -

- after the longest time - recently it was announced that 'super nurses' were to be given the power to prescrbe.

power
to
prescribe

==

A
'blind' medic
signature

in most cases

A large medic salary - wth power, status -
invited to all the 'best' parties.

Good grief.

How parochial !

Spent pretty much all of my time at work in Cambridge with an endocrine nurse by day and social sciences lecturer by night.
She shared my view (and we were of equivalent (national average) salary).

I think that if we were allowed to spend a little time with Tom Cruise - that many of us here - are getting sufficiently to the generlized root of rrreality -
that we could unwind his mind.

Scientology can be unwound from the (infected) individual's minds - by simply following their rabbit trail
- there will be a connection which switches the human need for God into some aspect of the scientologist rhetoric of Extra-terrestrial life.

Elron Hubbard's view that
'make a religion -> mkae money'
is corect - since the mind anchors on the unknowable - and so the mind collapses without belief
(unknowable == belief)

Place a connection to a belief system where previouly - there was none - and since the weight of the mind rests upon this anchor -
watch
as - the fundamentalist scientologist takes shape.

There is no greater power than controllng the fear of losing one's own mind.

Losing the mind creates feelings of terror within the afflicted individual - from which bad (very bad) acts may be performed -
though under the illusory belief that one is doing the correct thing.

*Belief* is essential -
though do not ask the question - whether you need to believe -
this is not a question of religion -
it's a factual and necessary 'physical' linkage which anchors the mind in place -
- the unscrupulous who wield an individual's belief - wield the individual.

Touched upon in two previous ADDF threads (now) ->
Voltaire
'if God did not exist - it would be necessary to invent him.'

I need to read more about Voltaire (particularly his muse) ... ...

Incidentally (also from ADDF previously)
Voltaire - Candide
'tend one's own garden'

The great French novel - and within it - the idea engrained - of the importance of the individual in building their own

m-i-n-d

Sadly - the scientology principle of getting rich quickly through inventing a religion - is precisely the mechanism for recruiting to its cause
-> the reason being that the logical structure of mind collapses without that asymptotic connection to 'the stuff we'll never know'

-> the unknowable.

Scientologists can be freed from their oppression - by understanding the tricks of their abusers.

-*-

Simply - though - we have a better model for rrreality (here) - and it *will* render scientologist theories of Thetans etan you up unless one buys them a 5star5course dinner at the 'Interstellar Happy Eatan'

~almost~

as silly as

the idea of buying a 5 star/course dinner at the Happy Eater.

(A chain of motorway eating places - signifed by a picture of a pacman (on the outside) - gagging himself with a finger)

-*-

"And the wedding reception will be at

... ... ... the Happy Eater???"


No!!!
:-)

Scientologists can be freed from their oppression - by understanding the tricks of their abusers.



distortion and deflection to hide the truth until one has talked to enough dead space aliens to have a need to justify this silliness but getting other people to in that manner they feel better about them selves.

If they indeed held such truths as they claim then why would they need to pick on us, or any other person/group who has a "named diversity" If one is truly secure in their own reality they would feel the need to attack psychiatry or the drug manufactures because they would understand that the existence of psychiatry is no threat to them. They attack psychiatry because it is a threat to their belief.

Scientology is full of crap and they know dianetic is a pile of dung they just do not want to admit they have wasted their time. . . . end the end chasing money is a waste of time because in the physical realm you take out of this world what you entered into it with - nothing. What matters in the end is what you gave to others from the inside.

What matters in the end is what you gave to others from the insidebecause our mind bears a 'virtual' record of this behaviour

:: sense ::

- since the mind is a logical (virtual) geometric structure -
and as the geometric structure firms (alters into more complex structure)
>- inescapable ethical stance reveals itself
('enforced moral consistency' -> elsewhere on ADDF)

logic == morality
geometric structure forms - more complex
inescapable ethical stance.

An ethical stance emerges -
we want to do the right thing and are prevented from doing the 'wrong' thing.

What matters in the end is what you gave to others from the insidebecause our mind bears a 'virtual' record of this behaviour

because the geometric structure may only make the transition to more complex - when the pre-existing structure has formed - and fails under weight of burden of need to add more to its 'vessel'

:: sense ::

transitions (evolution) need not occur if there is no need.

If we reach an impasse - in which we cannot add more information into our mind -
think

poorly packed suitcase -

then we have to throw out the poorly packed items - and repack - and only when the items are well packed - may we successfully partition for a new larger (more complex) suitcase - to store additional

items
== information.

What matters in the end is what you gave to others from the inside
because our mind bears a 'virtual' record of this behaviour

because the geometric structure may only make the transition to more complex - when the pre-existing structure has formed - and fails under weight of burden of need to add more to its 'vessel'

because interactions with others can be right or wrong - and because poor interactions must be supported by mind - the mind warps ever further away from logical consistency
-> towards an ever more poorly packed suitcase

:: sense ::

we cannot believe ourselves to be bad - and so must have a logical foundation to our behaviour - such that we don't believe ourselves to be 'the bad guy' -
it's why notable 'bad guys' from our history - have been permitted to behave badly -
their mind changes to rationalise away their behaviour

~however~

their suitcase becomes ever fuller with ever lesser items -
which is bad ...

... because they try harder
(to fill their suitcases with more)

as their suitcases empty.


What matters in the end is what you gave to others from the insidebecause our mind bears a 'virtual' record of this behaviour

because the geometric structure may only make the transition to more complex - when the pre-existing structure has formed - and fails under weight of burden of need to add more to its 'vessel'

because interactions with others can be right or wrong - and because poor interactions must be supported by mind - the mind warps ever further away from logical consistency
-> towards an ever more poorly packed suitcase

because we live on the inside (our mind) - and everything we do takes place within our mind (think Neo waking up from the Matrix - if it helps) -
- and the mind is instantiated by brain to serve up neurotransmission.
The mind is thereby seen as an instrument of brain -
and in keeping with evolutionary advancement to complexity -
it must be seen to follow the 'Universal Laws of Evolution'
- dictated by fundamental physics (essentially self-assembly)

... ... ... and - so the structure is made up of ?

~logical pathways~

think

_/...0
. \...1

behaviour -> <- logical structure of mind
dual

so ... 'good' behaviour' builds good 'structure of mind'
and of course
good 'structure of mind' builds 'good behaviour'

('good behaviour' == morality)

One must know and must feel like doing the 'right' thing -
to do the 'right thing'
- or more selfishly - for the individual to feel the heavenly ascent of their 'righteous' behaviour -

- otherwise one is left
a bitter husk - wishing that one had cheated and behaved generally worse - like the guy over there who

bullied himself to wealth.

-*-

Truly the meek shall inherit the Earth -
but there's a catch - the volitionally meek -
not the grasping meek
weak meek

eek!
weak
meek

uh!

the kind who like to play
Hide
no seek -
(see no evil !)
no peek!

no peak.

yes, the REALITY of the THIS SITUATION, can be taken apart, and labeled subjective, objective, etc... .

MY TAKE huhum... :

People say ADHD is false, like people possibly speaking on behalf of their SPIRITUAL ORGANIZATION. . And it is precisely THE INDIVIDUAL, who is w/in the organization, that doesn't understand a certain fact..

. . . THAT MATERIAL REALITY IS ALSO THE BIG REALITY, SPIRITUAL REALITY WISHES TO GET w/it.. . must live w/it.. . ALL SPIRITUAL PATHS ARE PROGRESSED, DUE TO MATERIAL AND PYSCHOLOGICAL CIRCUMSTANCE.. ALL IS MIND, COMES INTO PLAY HERE .. . EVEN A FREE MIND, EXISTS With and IN MATTERIALLLSSS... how else could it be enjoyable??

In many ways, the PRESENT's ability's includes: adjusts/reconfigures/changes/builds based from the PAST

The subjective reality exists
because our mind bears a 'virtual' record of this behaviour

The objective reality exists
- since the mind is a logical (virtual) geometric structure -
and as the geometric structure firms (alters into more complex structure)
>- inescapable ethical stance reveals itself
('enforced moral consistency' -> elsewhere on ADDF)peace y'all.. :)

The true measure of a man (inside) is how he treats someone (outside) who can do him
absolutely no good. -Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784)

*not* because it's nice to be nice.

instead

because the 'point' to all of this - *requires* that we
~absolutely~
so
do

==

What matters in the end is what you gave to others (outside) from the inside.


subjective reality (inside) exists.
objective reality (outside) exists.

People say ADHD is false, like people possibly speaking on behalf of their SPIRITUAL ORGANIZATION. . And it is precisely

There is nothing spiritual about Scientology unless one is speaking about the spirit of greed.

They claim religion to escape the limitations and responsibilities that come with "treatment" claims. There treatment consist of talking to dead aliens = idiots.

While I do not want to debate whether or not Scientology is a religion or "spiritual" path, I have been enjoying this thread, so hopefully we can keep it away from any discussion of "spirituality", as that is against forum guidelines.

Working in the medical field, I can not believe that a man who professes to be as accomplished a doctor/psychiatrist as he claims, would then turn around and try to denounce what thousands of other doctors know and trust to be true (ADD, as well as other legitimate mental illnesses). Sadly enough, the doubting Thomas's of the world, are not likely to take up a challenge that could prove them wrong, simply because it has no benefit for them.

There is nothing spiritual about Scientology unless one is speaking about the spirit of greed. oh come on.. that's unlikely, and like I said, it's the individual, w/in, that makes the cause, crap.. maybe truth, is that Scientology is crap, does it matter??

belief is not important000000....000000