One of my current favorite books is Catherine Johnson and John Ratey's book Shadow Syndromes: The Mild Forms of Major Mental Disorders That Sabotage Us. In it they discuss a number of different mental disorders including ADHD and compare/contrast the difference between "frank" cases and the "shadow syndromes" (forme fruste). I found their insights interesting and wanted to share them and generate some discussion on the subject. I think there is as much risk in assuming all ADDers are alike as in assuming that there is no real difference between non ADD and ADD individuals, except ADDers aren't "trying hard enough".


Scattered

So what does the book say the difference is between mild and severe ADHD?
I have very severe ADHD. Debilitating at times. I imagine the difference lies in how debilitating it is?

Sounds like a fascinating book. Is it new?

So what does the book say the difference is between mild and severe ADHD?
I have very severe ADHD. Debilitating at times. I imagine the difference lies in how debilitating it is?

In Shadow Syndrome's chapter "Prisoners of the Present" it states,
The In the frank case of adult ADD, these core symptoms can unravel a life. Like their childhood selves, adults suffering from severe ADD do not live up to their potential. When ADD is severe, the wait can be forever and its sufferer is left feeling bewildered. The classic story of full-blwon ADD is the intelligent person who cannot get his life together and who becomes increasingly demoralized, anxious, and depressed as the years wear on.

But the person with mild ADD may look quite different. The mild ADD-er is not simply the slightly less chaotic twin of his more severly afflicted brother.....Hyperactivity does have it's advantages: high energy, high enthusiasm, and the ability to hyperfocus, all of which can take a person to great heights in some realms.......The mild ADD-er may be a brilliant success in life -- at least in his work life -- when he makes a good match between his job and his mind's skittery ways. He will doubtless suffer from pockets of disorganization, of course; he may be the top salesman who never gets his paperwork done, or the financial executive who cannot file his own taxes. But for the mild ADD-er these limitations are not crippling.

Sounds like a fascinating book. Is it new?Amazingly it's been out since 1997, I'm not sure why we haven't heard more about it. John Ratey is the co-author with Edward Hallowell of Driven to Distraction.

Scattered

The In the frank case of adult ADD, these core symptoms can unravel a life. Like their childhood selves, adults suffering from severe ADD do not live up to their potential. When ADD is severe, the wait can be forever and its sufferer is left feeling bewildered. The classic story of full-blwon ADD is the intelligent person who cannot get his life together and who becomes increasingly demoralized, anxious, and depressed as the years wear on.
That paragraph describes me so much, it's scary!! :eek:

Amazingly it's been out since 1997, I'm not sure why we haven't heard more about it. John Ratey is the co-author with Edward Hallowell of Driven to Distraction.

I'm surprised too. I'm definitely going to buy it!

More on the differences between mild and frank ADD.

Beyond the fact that the mildly ADD adult has, by definiton milder problems, he enjoys a further advantage over his severely ADD counterpart as well: an advantage in his ability to perceive and assess those problems in the first place. A disorder like ADD affects thoughts as well as emotions; it strikes at basic cognitive processes. In the case of the ADD adult tring to come to terms with his disorder, the disorganization that afflicts his thinking may cause him to look in the mirror and see a globally flawed human being.......

The mildly hyperactive adult, in contrast, enjoys the good fortune of being able to survey himself and see someting far more precise and real: a hard worker, say, who misses deadlines, and who needs to find ways to compensate for this flaw. In other words, the mildly ADD adult is able to form a coherent and integrated self-image, consisting of coherent strengths and weaknesses. But for the severely hyperactive person, thoughts and perceptions can be so blurred that it is difficult for him to organize anything, including his own sense of self. (emphasis mine)
I split the paragraph up a bit to make it easier for folks to me to read.
Scattered

I have never seen what I am going to say, written specifically about ADHD and ADHD symptoms. I have read bits and pieces here and there but I'm putting it together now. I could be way off base here but I'm going to state it see what sort of feedback others give.
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Remember that ADHD is a developmental disorder. Have you read the threads where ADHD folks say that they have changed over time, especially in their late teenage years and the early 20's? These folks may be an example of people who have developed brain functions more slowly...but have developed them even though not all the functions may be up to the norm. That would be typical for a developmental disorder. So for instance, in high school we notice that a number of ADHD kids begin to plan ahead for assignments in grade 12. They will actually start working on stuff days before it is due. Contrast that to an ADHD kid in grade 9...who often don't work on stuff unless someone is sitting on them or it is due the next day.

People with severe ADHD may be stuck at the earlier developmental stages. They may make little advancement in core weak ADHD brain function areas, for their entire life. For instance most kids lose their hyperactivity by the time they reach high school. High school ADHDers tend not to "climb on furniture" and do other hyperactive behaviour, to the same degree as they did as children. You may see one or two examples but that is more rare as they get older. If someone is still very hyperactive at 35, that might indicate that there has been little development with those ADHD brain funcitons, in that particular student.

I have often wondered how severity is determined, I think McTavish cleared it up a little for me by saying that it is the extent of which teh symptoms affect daily life, and these excerpts certianly seem good too. I will have to find the book!

I have a co-worker who is ADHD, and it appears to me that she is more mild than me.

I think the whole idea that ADDers are unaware of our own behavior is true. I just this year realized a lot of the areas where it is affecting my life, and I was diagnosed 4 years ago. I probably wouldn't have even noticed those things now if people weren't pointing them out to me!

I do'nt have much of a sense of self either. When people ask about favorite activities, I say "crafty stuff, reading, and being active." But really, I don't have any favorite things because my interests change so frequently! I also don't feel I do anything well even though I try hard, so that contributes to it. I have also felt inadequate because my parents have always talked about me being the "good student" who works hard and gives everything 110%. If they only knew!!! I have always gotten As and Bs, but that has been by just doing stuff at the last minute and not being able to do the reading. I also have bene unable to take notes, I cannot process fast enough or determine importance. Unfortunately, this has always been a struggle for me and to not have my parents recognize it simply because I am intelligent enough to do well without trying is very frustrating. :( I do recognize myself as somewaht creative, I was the only one allowed to do all-school bulletin boards at one job and the only allowed to do displays at a store I worked at. I am able to do those quickly and they turn out looking really good! I think this is why my parents have always thought I put so much effort into things, they remember these creative projects, which are my strength, and are not remembering my struggles.

I think that the severity of ADHD is not the only way ADHD can impact self-worth and self-esteem, but other's recognitions of the struggles you are facing.

wow! just looked back at my post and noticed I changed topic in the middle of the paragraph! Completely forgot my point!!!! :faint:

Meds have worn off...is that mild or severe or moderate??....:rolleyes:

I am mild I guess, great at work, so they made me superviser and now the paper work is debilitating, I always pull through at the last minute but my ability to solve problems is fantastic, I also suffer from other ADHD problems like impulse control, mind forgetting words and attention focusing but I have always been a valued employee in my feild which I find perfect for me - constant crisis :D

Remember that ADHD is a developmental disorder. Have you read the threads where ADHD folks say that they have changed over time, especially in their late teenage years and the early 20's? These folks may be an example of people who have developed brain functions more slowly...but have developed them even though not all the functions may be up to the norm. That would be typical for a developmental disorder. So for instance, in high school we notice that a number of ADHD kids begin to plan ahead for assignments in grade 12. They will actually start working on stuff days before it is due. Contrast that to an ADHD kid in grade 9...who often don't work on stuff unless someone is sitting on them or it is due the next day.
Is that why I sometimes feel that the children are more mature then me?? I feel like a 5 year old sometimes, if someone gives prizes or is doing something that looks fun I always want a turn and it is sooooooo hard to be a grown up and put the kids first!! :eek: :o

ok now this:

The mildly hyperactive adult, in contrast, enjoys the good fortune of being able to survey himself and see someting far more precise and real: a hard worker, say, who misses deadlines, and who needs to find ways to compensate for this flaw. In other words, the mildly ADD adult is able to form a coherent and integrated self-image, consisting of coherent strengths and weaknesses.
has really peaked my interest...alot, just miss out the hard worker...actually no...i'm not sure about that one...leave it in for now, this is really interesting me.....sorry to be a little selfish, but...it really is interesting to me....i'm gonna have to think about this one a bit....sorry bit of a pointless post.

huh?!

So for instance, in high school we notice that a number of ADHD kids begin to plan ahead for assignments in grade 12. They will actually start working on stuff days before it is due. Contrast that to an ADHD kid in grade 9...who often don't work on stuff unless someone is sitting on them or it is due the next day.
....i dunno what the grade converstion is but scuro or any other person for that matter, could u tell me what age the kid would be at grade 9 and 12 please, thing was i've never had problems about what to do, i've always known how to do the work, it was just that...i couldn't do the work...i knew what i had to do and i knew what to type or write or draw to do it but i just couldn't do it without someone with me mind u that was was when i was.....must be around i dunno....oh just ignore what i've said....i'm quite confused at the moment lol

Grade 9 - 14 years old.
Grade 12 - 18 years old.

DX, for me, year 9 would be 14 years old, and year 12, 17 years

If I may be so bold as to throw out my thinking on the difference between mild and severe ADHD.
I think mild ADHD suffers have to struggle to focus.
Whereas severe ADHDers can't force focusing. Either we're able to, or we're not.

Two examples of what I consider severe in the school setting.

Severe student 1->
-Unable to follow plots in any but the most moronic of movies;
-totally lost in any group discussion;
-never stays on topic;
-very self centered and very naive;
-needs 1 on 1 assistance to get any work completed;
-doesn't understand any social cues.

Outcome- after graduation with basic certificate, he has been unable to hold meaningful employment for the last five years.

Severe student 2 ->
-totally self centered;
-only does school work when on meds AND using rewards;
-does many "stupid" things that get him into all sorts trouble;
-consequences have little effect;
-easily gets offended;
-great difficulty with social cues.

Outcome - still in school but has had numerous suspensions, has had a number of run-ins with the law. He may not get his diploma because of the possibility that either he will end up in jail or he will be too old to take courses with much younger kids.

Two examples of what I consider severe in the school setting.

Severe student 1->
-Unable to follow plots in any but the most moronic of movies;
-totally lost in any group discussion;
-never stays on topic;
-very self centered and very naive;
-needs 1 on 1 assistance to get any work completed;
-doesn't understand any social cues.

Outcome- after graduation with basic certificate, he has been unable to hold meaningful employment for the last five years.

Severe student 2 ->
-totally self centered;
-only does school work when on meds AND using rewards;
-does many "stupid" things that get him into all sorts trouble;
-consequences have little effect;
-easily gets offended;
-great difficulty with social cues.

Outcome - still in school but has had numerous suspensions, has had a number of run-ins with the law. He may not get his diploma because of the possibility that either he will end up in jail or he will be too old to take courses with much younger kids. uh oh..that makes me wonder how I got so far in life...I was severe student 1:( and partly severe student 2...:(
I did lose every job I had after I left school until I landed *family job*, where I could hide away when I needed to..now I work here alone, and after 20 years it's like my 2nd home, and I love it :D I am starting to think I was not as *mild* as I thought...:faint:

I
I do'nt have much of a sense of self either. When people ask about favorite activities, I say "crafty stuff, reading, and being active." But really, I don't have any favorite things because my interests change so frequently! I also don't feel I do anything well even though I try hard, so that contributes to it. I have also felt inadequate because my parents have always talked about me being the "good student" who works hard and gives everything 110%. If they only knew!!! I have always gotten As and Bs, but that has been by just doing stuff at the last minute and not being able to do the reading. I also have bene unable to take notes, I cannot process fast enough or determine importance.

I think that the severity of ADHD is not the only way ADHD can impact self-worth and self-esteem, but other's recognitions of the struggles you are facing.
Oh Chloe;

Sorry to be sappy... but I have tears rolling down my cheeks after reading what you wrote. I can relate to it on sooooo many levels! Particularly the last sentence you wrote. Others really haven't a clue! Not a clue!

People with severe ADHD may be stuck at the earlier developmental stages. They may make little advancement in core weak ADHD brain function areas, for their entire life. For instance most kids lose their hyperactivity by the time they reach high school. High school ADHDers tend not to "climb on furniture" and do other hyperactive behaviour, to the same degree as they did as children. You may see one or two examples but that is more rare as they get older. If someone is still very hyperactive at 35, that might indicate that there has been little development with those ADHD brain funcitons, in that particular student.Scuro, I think there is definately something to what you expressed. The only thing I'd add to it is that for some of us (me anyway!) there seems to be a bell curve going on. I obviously was pretty severe to be diagnosed at 3 or 4 as a girl in the 1960's and offered Ritalin by three different doctors. In high school I was voted "Most Likely to Succeed" -- oh brother!:rolleyes: So definately up to very mild ADD. Currently I am pretty firmly entrenched in moderate ADD and seem to be heading downhill. Thomas Brown talks about how the last things to develop with executive functions also tend to be the first things to go.:faint:


If I may be so bold as to throw out my thinking on the difference between mild and severe ADHD.
I think mild ADHD suffers have to struggle to focus.
Whereas severe ADHDers can't force focusing. Either we're able to, or we're not.I think Ratey would agree.

Thus the mildly ADD adult is, for instance, the disorganized person who can purchase a book on how to organize his life -- and then actually use that book to go ahead and organize his life. He, or she , is able to compensate for his failings in ways that elude the severely ADD person. Having better control over his "attentional apparatus," he can pay attention to his weak areas, and to his strategies for self improvement, long enough to make his life work. While the mildly ADD adult has a great deal of difficulty remembering all that he is supposed to do, the mildness of his attention deficit does allow him to "remember to remember"; his memory works well enough to keep him coming back to the memory aids without which he would be lost.Scattered

I think that the severity of ADHD is not the only way ADHD can impact self-worth and self-esteem, but other's recognitions of the struggles you are facing.
Amen to that! That's the worst part. :mad:

I am a 'medium' level.

This is what I've been saying, pertaining to ADD/HD coming in many 'flavors/shades' of intensity levels, and how individuals vary in that level.

And my 'medium' level will also differ from another who is of a 'medium' level.

Lets see, im like Tracy's take on it for myself. I was part student 1 and part student 2, but allways been successful and able to do thing at the last minute, i can hyperfocus like no other, although i have been recently running into motivational problems and getting work done, but never editing my essays- which would really help my grades. I have also had the hardest time ever with social clues, i honestly dont get any of them, i cnat see them, and if people arent 100% blunt with me, i honestly have no idea. Im a soph in college now, almsot done with this year, have a 3.00 gpa, but thats also b/c im a high functioning ADHDer- in the 98-99th % of the IQ for most people, but i get a 3.00 gpa... its kinda depressing when i really think about it.

I was DX when i was 4 and the doctor that i worked with when i was 10 said i was the most obvious case of ADHD that he had ever seen in his career. I am 20 now and school is a constant struggle, as is social interaction- especially especially with the other sex, i have no idea, EVER.

Originally Posted by Shadow Syndromes
Thus the mildly ADD adult is, for instance, the disorganized person who can purchase a book on how to organize his life -- and then actually use that book to go ahead and organize his life. He, or she , is able to compensate for his failings in ways that elude the severely ADD person. Having better control over his "attentional apparatus," he can pay attention to his weak areas, and to his strategies for self improvement, long enough to make his life work. While the mildly ADD adult has a great deal of difficulty remembering all that he is supposed to do, the mildness of his attention deficit does allow him to "remember to remember"; his memory works well enough to keep him coming back to the memory aids without which he would be lost.

This makes me think that I probably don't have mild ADHD, which I used to believe.

Well..I would say that most of my friends qualify under the 'medium' level, if that makes you feel better. (0:

And don't let the word 'memory' fool you.

My memory is better than most.

My attention span, however- is not.

If someone is still very hyperactive at 35, that might indicate that there has been little development with those ADHD brain functions, in that particular student.

If one is still hyper at 42? Yet I have insight, and strategies to cope, and some idea of self identity. I think my brain functions are just that mine………..as far as severity goes I was diagnosed as moderately severe! ADD with “H” factor!

I fought against my ADD symptoms…for years…….medicated them with illegal drugs later after a few years of sobriety legal ones I still wake up me every morning!

I have places in my life that are very organized others resemble a disaster area……….

I don’t think all ADDers are like me but realized others may have some similar traits……..

I will never be a non-ADDer no matter how many pills I swallow…………

I will never be a shy quiet person who sits un-noticed in social gatherings………

Spelling will never be my strong suite neither will keeping my mouth shut!

I will never be a blonde or a boy either………………


And???????????????????????????

I have places in my life that are very organized others resemble a disaster area……….yep!!!

I don’t think all ADDers are like me but realized others may have some similar traits…….. Like me for instance!

I will never be a non-ADDer no matter how many pills I swallow…………me either!

I will never be a shy quiet person who sits un-noticed in social gatherings………me either!

Spelling will never be my strong suite neither will keeping my mouth shut!me either!

I will never be a blonde or a boy either………………me either!


You know if it weren't for being 45 instead of 42, I think I'd be having an identify crisis now -- you sound sooooooo much like me!:p LOL!

Scattered:)

Yeah that quote from the book kind of irked me - that if you're still hyper at 32 you just haven't matured. I think he made a comment that showed he was referring to physical hyperactivity, which shows me that he doesnt understand that the hyperactivity often morphs from physical to mental in adulthood.
I've matured, damnit. And he can't tell me otherwise or I'll throw a tantrum! :p

Seriously though, I find that insulting. I see norms that have grown into arrogant and downright mean adults. Is that maturity? Is that what I should strive for? What about all the ways I've grown? - introspectively. Learning to deal with norms. Learning ways to get around in this non ADD world. Finding ways to keep my KINDNESS and EMPATHY in the face of a mean world.
Do these things mean nothing on the maturity ladder?

meh, people are often mean to things they don't fully undestand, or they take a quick glance and predict from there.

I don't think it's a matter of not maturing, I expect that in more severe cases there is just a bigger gap to begin with so that even with maturity the same level won't be reached.

Thomas Brown in Attention Deficit Disorder says:
"Although executive functions are slower to develop than many other aspects of brain function, foundations for their development are observable early in childhood........

"individual differences in basic physiology, sensitivity to stress, intensity of engagement and of effort, and so on are likely to have considerable influence on the develpment of what will eventually become executive functions of the brain.........

"recent findings of widespread advances in development of the brain during adolescence -- large increases in brain volume followed by greatly increased pruning of neural networks and dramatically accelerated rates of myelination -- provide substantial evidence that the circuits rthat support executive functions of the human brain are not fully deeloped until after puberty.....

"Once developed, executive functions do not remain static over the lfetime. They may be refined further during early and middle adult years, and in later adulthood, for many, they begin to decline........

Apparently networks that support executive functions are not only slower to develop than other brain networks; they also tend to suffer an earlier decline."
Gives new meaning to "over the hill", eh!:rolleyes:
Scattered

But didn't the author use the word "maturity"?

Now I don't like that author at all Scattered! LOL
The quotes you just put in your post make it sound like we're blithering idiots.
To set the record straight - any abilities I didn't have early on, I DIDN'T learn later in life. I can't learn to function as a norm. I am the way I am and I always will be. I may find ways AROUND my "handicaps", perhaps by using my ADD gifts that the norms don't have, my unique creative problem solving skills.

That's the whole problem here. The author is equating ADD with brain damage again like they used to.

But didn't the author use the word "maturity"?I'm a little lost -- happens a lot:rolleyes: . Which author and quote?

I was using maturity in reference to the process by which the executive functions in an ADDer mature and later decline over the course of their development. According to Castellanos quoted by Brown, "The unifying abstraction that best encompasses the faculties principally affected in ADHD has been termed executive function".
Brown goes on to say, "most researchers agree that the term should be used to refer to brain circuits that prioritize, integrate, and regulate other cognitive functions. Executive functions, then , manage the brain's cognitive functions; they provide the mechanism for "self-regulation".(emphasis mine)

Self-regulation is a big part of how I define maturity.
Scattered

Sometimes all your quotes hinder my understanding rather than help it. Could you say that again in just your own words?
Love ya! :D

haha, i like the way that we're (and by the word we're i mean people with add or adhd which doesn't include me due to lack of dx) calling people without add/adhd as "norms" it's just...makes me chuckle, u know this is probably how pregidice and racisim started :P

Hey..they label us so what's good for the ADDer is good for the Norm :p
How come they all couldn't be diagnosed with "mild brain damage" because their brains didn't work like ours? :D

Hey..they label us so what's good for the ADDer is good for the Norm :p
and thats what spurred it on :D

sry, just jokin with ya, just messing about :P

How come they all couldn't be diagnosed with "mild brain damage" because their brains didn't work like ours? :D
hold on, i know this this one we did it a little in law club......i think it's called "sods law" but i'm not sure :D

Sure -- I was just trying not to screw up the message, but we're obvious seeing different things.

When you go through puberty your brain grows really fast and to become more efficient it prunes away some of the connections (this is a good thing) and increased mylenation occurs which makes everything go faster (also a good thing). This isn't totally finished after adolescence. I read somewhere that it continues to improve until mid life but much more slowly than in the teen years.

Obviously if someone is just a tiny bit on the side of the impairment line that qualifies for an ADHD diagnosis an improvement with maturity will either lessen the symptoms or even put one over the line into the non ADD category (although there may still be an ADD thinking style without impairment). On the more severe side of the continuum an improvement might help, but the impairment would still be profound enough to leave serious problems for the ADHD individual.

On the other end of life, due to aging or decreasing hormones (for women at least) the process may reverse itself. Slower processing speed may make one more likely to forget something in the middle of doing it; fluxtuating hormones may mess with the dopamine reuptake and also impair functioning. This doesn't mean you're not a mature caring person or not a wise person, but it may mean that in certain situations you have more difficulty conveying this. I'm effective in my profession in discussing problems with clients and can pull on a broad range of information. However, if I don't see the parents for several days after I've tested the child, even a picture of the child doesn't always jog my memory. I remember the information, just not which kid went with which piece of information. Am I making any more sense? Or did I really muddy the waters now.

Both John Ratey (who has ADD himself) and Thomas Brown indicate great respect for ADDers in their writing. If I've selected passages that make it seem otherwise, that is my fault for removing it from it's original context.

Scattered

We call it Murphy's Law here in the US, and yes, it is quite applicable :D

hahaha, i've got that poster! :D

OMG, i'm such a tool of course it is, i just didn't think it was the exact same thing lol, i'm such a spoon

Sure -- I was just trying not to screw up the message, but we're obvious seeing different things.

When you go through puberty your brain grows really fast and to become more efficient it prunes away some of the connections (this is a good thing) and increased mylenation occurs which makes everything go faster (also a good thing). This isn't totally finished after adolescence. I read somewhere that it continues to improve until mid life but much more slowly than in the teen years.

Obviously if someone is just a tiny bit on the side of the impairment line that qualifies for an ADHD diagnosis an improvement with maturity will either lessen the symptoms or even put one over the line into the non ADD category (although there may still be an ADD thinking style without impairment). On the more severe side of the continuum an improvement might help, but the impairment would still be profound enough to leave serious problems for the ADHD individual.

On the other end of life, due to aging or decreasing hormones (for women at least) the process may reverse itself. Slower processing speed may make one more likely to forget something in the middle of doing it; fluxtuation hormones may mess with the dopamine reuptake and also impair functioning. This doesn't mean you're not a mature caring person or not a wise person, but it may mean that in certain situations you have more difficulty conveying this. I'm effective in my profession in discussing problems with clients and can pull on a broad range of information. However, if I don't see the parents for several days after I've tested the child, even a picture of the child doesn't always jog my memory. I remember the information, just not which kid went with which piece of information. Am I making any more sense? Or did I really muddy the waters now.

Both John Ratey (who has ADD himself) and Thomas Brown indicate great respect for ADDers in their writing. If I've selected passages that make it seem otherwise, that is my fault for removing it from it's original context.

ScatteredWell I was speaking from the view of a person with severe ADHD. I can't speak for those who have mild cases, because I don't know what that's like. But for me, I've always been this "impaired".
As far as different stages of life, and hormone fluctuations and age - I think we're getting into a hazy area here.
Everyone displays ADD symptoms at one time or another. It's how often they display it that gets them the ADD diagnosis.
Everyone loses their keys some time.
Everyone has problems retrieving that certain word sometimes.
Everyone gets distracted sometimes.
Everyone loses focus and motivation sometimes.

If a person doesn't have an ADD dx, then when they get older and start to exhibit symptoms, it's just written off to old age. Yet if they're ADD and it happens and they start to exhibit MORE symptoms, it's said their ADD is getting worse.

On the other side of the coin, if an ADDer gets older and their symptoms diminish, are they said to be finally "growing out of" their ADD?
If a norm gets sharper with age, it's just thought that they're more confident in themselves and have more life lessons to draw from.

These are all just guesses on my part for the purpose of discussion. Just my current point of view (which changes moment to moment usually, so take it all as well meaning questioning).
I'm easily offended when I feel that I'm being looked down upon for the way my brain works - yet I curse it daily for that very same reason.
I'm a walking conundrum. LOL!
It's kind of like how we feel about our loved ones though; WE can cut them down, but NOBODY ELSE can!

My guess is -- and maybe I'm wrong, but you're probably a moderate ADDer. I'm basing that not on the difficulties you've struggled with but the fact that you are able to look at your ADHD, your life, excetera and discuss it in an intelligent fashion. According to John Ratey someone with severe ADHD can't do that. They can't even hold a coherent sense of self and self observe -- they feel globally flawed. You're speaking up here for what is good about you --you can see the good with the bad. So can I (I've gone from moderate to mild and back to moderate ADD in my life). Unfortuantely, not everyone with ADHD is as fortunate as we are.

Thomas Brown actually thinks that even people who have never had ADHD can develop what he calls ADD syndrome later in life (in this he is swimming against the conventional wisdom) and benefit from treatment just like an adult can develop diabetes later in life. He sees ADD along a continuum but still a normal human behavior -- just the lower end of the bell curve as far as the executive functions go. With age and menopause, folks who were lower on the continuum might sink below the impairment line. John Ratey calls it "tipping points". The places were sometimes even a small decline causes a huge change in function.

I don't like being cut down either, but that rarely happens from others (oh, my family laughs at me for forgetting and being disorganized, but it's pretty benign, they also see the good). Mostly I'm my worst critic. I like ADDers -- some of the most interesting, fun, real people I know are ADDers. But like Ratey say, the mild ADDer is quite difference from the florid case of ADHD. I don't think any of my friends are that severe.


Peace!:)
Scattered

I'm a walking conundrum. LOL! haha, nice and subtlley placed cham :D

i don't like labels such as "severe" and "mild" everythings unique, probably why i **** myself off for analyzing others lol.

grrrr.

I've always been this "impaired". not "impared" u've always been like this!, ur are who u are and people love u for it thus ur NOT i repeat NOT impaired, it's just u being u and it's one of the reason that u do what u do and part of the reason why we dont want u feeling blue, things that others see as negative negate their ability to comprehend the world around us

....have no idea about what i just said on reflection but hell i'll post it anyway

hmm...maybe if i add a sentence.

things that others see as negative negate their ability to comprehend the world around us
theres is good in everything, theres two sides to the coin and people sometimes forget that they can flip it up in the air and catch it again, a world that frowns on things making them negative just shows that the majority aren't like it, doesn't make it negative just means that ur more special.

again...not impairment, no negatives

....did that help make sense about what i was saying, urgh i dunno, it's like drawing a picture u keep going thinking it looks good then as soon as u tilt ur head as u draw a corner u realise how bad it is

My guess is -- and maybe I'm wrong, but you're probably a moderate ADDer. I'm basing that not on the difficulties you've struggled with but the fact that you are able to look at your ADHD, your life, excetera and discuss it in an intelligent fashion. According to John Ratey someone with severe ADHD can't do that. They can't even hold a coherent sense of self and self observe -- they feel globally flawed. You're speaking up here for what is good about you --you can see the good with the bad. So can I (I've gone from moderate to mild and back to moderate ADD in my life). Unfortuantely, not everyone with ADHD is as fortunate as we are.Well John Ratey is wrong then. I've been given a diagnosis of severe ADHD by a psychologist that specializes in ADD. I was given the 5 day grueling test.
I prefer to believe a diagnosis from an ADD specialist that's seen, talked to, and tested me over someone that's never met me

Thomas Brown actually thinks that even people who have never had ADHD can develop what he calls ADD syndrome later in life (in this he is swimming against the conventional wisdom) and benefit from treatment just like an adult can develop diabetes later in life. He sees ADD along a continuum but still a normal human behavior -- just the lower end of the bell curve as far as the executive functions go. With age and menopause, folks who were lower on the continuum might sink below the impairment line. John Ratey calls it "tipping points". The places were sometimes even a small decline causes a huge change in function.

Peace!:)
ScatteredAgain, I can't speak for those with mild cases of ADD, or even moderate cases. I can only speak of my own severe case.
I'd pass Thomas Brown swimming in the opposite direction...if I could swim :D

haha, nice and subtlley placed cham :DThanks for noticing the carry-over from another thread Lee :D

i don't like labels such as "severe" and "mild" everythings unique, probably why i **** myself off for analyzing others lol.

grrrr.


not "impared" u've always been like this!, ur are who u are and people love u for it thus ur NOT i repeat NOT impaired, it's just u being u and it's one of the reason that u do what u do and part of the reason why we dont want u feeling blue, things that others see as negative negate their ability to comprehend the world around us

....have no idea about what i just said on reflection but hell i'll post it anywayThat's why I put "impaired" in quotation marks, I don't feel it's accurate either.
I do struggle endlessly in some tasks this society gives me, but in my own self-implemented tasks I shine :D
Therefor I'm an idiot savant! LOL
j/k, don't tell me I shouldn't call myself that! LOL

Therefor I'm an idiot
<inserts tediously long rambling on why u shouldn't call urself an idiot>

don't tell me I shouldn't call myself that! LOL
too late :D

sry i didn't register the "'s, i'll try and read the stuff people write more carefully from now on

Hallowell and Ratey say that inconsistency is the hallmark of ADD. I shine in a number of professional and scholastic areas. As a stay at home mom, I'm impaired by my ADD. Before meds it got so bad that my inattention was putting my kids at risk. To me that is a pretty clear impairment and I don't need society to confirm it for me. Keeping my kids safe and being a good mom is my most important priority, but before meds you wouldn't know it.


As far as severity levels go -- I'm not trying to diagnosis. Just trying to understand more about the whole continuum and how it expresses itself from mild to severe. Discussing things outside my own head is one of the ways I learn best. Sometimes I have to say it wrong and be corrected to understand something better.

Scattered

I used to think I was mild, but now that I'm learning more about how it is affecting me, I'm wondering how severe really I am.

If you get in-depth testing you'll know, along with what comorbids you have, and exactly how your ADD effects your thinking. It's so valuable.

if I can remember to call, I will! I don't trust my doc he just seems like he doesn't to be there and he said I should do fine with just having the medication. I was referred to this place because they supposudly had ADHD specialists and an ADHD clinic, but this doc said there is none! He just put me on 60 mg of ritalin per day (I tried 2 of my 36mg concerta and that worked well, but he decided that instead of writing a script for 72mg of concerta, plus ritalin for the rest of the day(concerta only lasts about 6 hours for me) he would just have me take 20mg or ritalin at breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and he said he felt like it was a lot and we would see how I do, so that's another thing that makes me wonder how severe I am. I definitely want to have the testing to know more about myself.

:D If I could write such sensible posts like you guys I would be happy...:D
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have the same posts IN MY HEAD!! I just can't for the life of me get them sensibly on paper, even with medication :o

:D If I could write such sensible posts like you guys I would be happy...:D
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have the same posts IN MY HEAD!! I just can't for the life of me get them sensibly on paper, even with medication :oYou have no idea how long it takes me to get my idea's on paper. I seriously rewrote this post three times just to get it to make sense. and sometimes I get done with a post I think is good and I reread it to find out it doesn't make much sense and end up never posting it.

Disorder is about impairment. No impairment, no disorder. The level of impairment in ones life would indicate the severity of ADHD. If your life is constantly messed up with your friends, your family, your love life, work, and heck...even in interacting with total strangers on the road...I'd call that severe. Milds would be having some difficulty in life, perhaps in one or two areas. They would not be firing on all four cylinders...but would be getting on...going through the stages of life as others do.

still i still think the author seems to jump to conclusions sometimes

still i still think the author seems to jump to conclusions sometimesWell, if the author you're referring to is John Ratey -- he is ADHD! We do jump a bit precipitiously sometimes!!! On the other hand, he is a recognized expert on ADHD and the psychology of violence and aggression.

Scattered

I thought Ratey's explanation of how it is possible with a change of circumstances or physiological change to have one's ADD worsen. This paragraph released me from most of the guilt I felt about taking medication because I wasn't able to control my ADD symptoms with exercise, diet, and such like I had been able to before kids.


Even a very mild case of ADD can take a serious toll on a woman's capacity to live with the role of wife-and-mother. Put simply, the hyperactive woman is likely to find the low-stim life of naps and diapers difficult in the extreme. It is not just that the hyper woman will tend to grow bored when tied to the house. She will also find find her mood, as well as her internal sense of mental acuity, declining as well. This is so because the mildly ADD woman who stays at home with children has essentially given up her medicine of high stimulation in the larger world outside. Because an unmedicated ADD-er cannot focus well, the ADD housewife's focus slips, confusion results, and anxiety inevitably follows. Confusion breeds doubt, which in turn breeds worry....

Looked at from the perspective of ADD, children are full-time distraction machines: their needs are never predictable, and one of their main functions in life is to interrupt their parents.
This described my life to a T. Calling kids "full-time distraction machines" tickled me too!:p

Scattered

What about in the case of a severe ADHD mom with AD/HD children?

What about in the case of a severe ADHD mom with AD/HD children?He didn't discuss that but I think I can extrapolate that if it throws a mild ADD Mom into a tailspin, it's going to be even more challenging for a more severely ADD mom. At least one of my kids is also ADHD, plus my undiagnosed ADD husband. Things can get a mite chaotic around here!

Scattered

I never considered that my ADHD mixed with motherhood could be causing unhappiness in me. ADHD yes. Motherhood -sometimes yes (teens :p ). But I never looked at the 2 together. How can I make the 2 coincide better?

I never considered that my ADHD mixed with motherhood could be causing unhappiness in me. ADHD yes. Motherhood -sometimes yes (teens :p ). But I never looked at the 2 together. How can I make the 2 coincide better?I'm kind of working on that one myself with my counselor. He recommended at that I probably need to get back in the work force because stay at home mom doing homeschool is definately playing to my weaknesses.

The biggest thing my counselor has recommended is designing a schedule and than really commiting to following it. He also is a big believer in self care (IE: exercise, relaxation breathing, journaling, scheduling down time and time with friends, adequate rest, etc). Meds have helped a lot too, but I've definately got a ways to go to get things where I'd like them to be.

Sari Solden in Women with Attention Deficit Disorder discusses changing attitudes and expectations. I'm working on that, but it's a slow process. My mom was pretty much a Martha Stewart in organization and running a home smoothly, so I grew up with a model I can't successfully reach. If you haven't read her book, you might find it useful. I'm going to reread it for myself now that I'm out of my denial stage.;)

Scattered

You know...I'm just so terrible about reading books. I have that eye thing I can never remember the name of where the words move around on the page and I see the patterns of the white between them more than the letters. Pretty much it's impossible for me to read a book. I've read only a handful in my life. The concentration and focus needed just isn't there. :(
Really really wish I could.
I can't read long posts here either. But I can suck up all the short posts all day long! I know that makes no sense. You'd think that if I could read in short spurts I could just tackle a book, or long post, in bits, but it somehow doesn't work that way. The entire thought has to be encapsulated in short for my wandering mind to stay with it, and for absorption to take place.
Someone should make a movie of the ADD books - with car crashes and drama and edge-of-your-seat suspense to keep me interested! LOL!

No I understand that. My husband is dyslexic and describes the same things. I'm a pretty good reader, but even without a reading disability I'll sometimes find myself reading a book backward. I read one section and than back up and read the previous section and so forth. For some reason that helps me concentrate -- maybe it makes the sections look smaller!

I generally skim long posts unless I'm extremely interested -- then I have to read and reread them (I just never used to realize that everyone didn't have to do that). More books for ADDers should be written like Answers to Distraction -- with short question and answer sections.

Scattered

And crash scenes and shoot outs! :D

:D If I could write such sensible posts like you guys I would be happy...:D
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have the same posts IN MY HEAD!! I just can't for the life of me get them sensibly on paper, even with medication :o
It takes me forever to post and the edit button is my best friend!!!;)

I'm a pretty good reader, but even without a reading disability I'll sometimes find myself reading a book backward. I read one section and than back up and read the previous section and so forth. For some reason that helps me concentrate -- maybe it makes the sections look smaller!

I generally skim long posts unless I'm extremely interested -- then I have to read and reread them (I just never used to realize that everyone didn't have to do that). More books for ADDers should be written like Answers to Distraction -- with short question and answer sections.
This is me too!

Mine too. I almost ALWAYS edit :rolleyes:

You know...I'm just so terrible about reading books. I have that eye thing I can never remember the name of where the words move around on the page and I see the patterns of the white between them more than the letters. Pretty much it's impossible for me to read a book. I've read only a handful in my life. The concentration and focus needed just isn't there. :(
Really really wish I could.

Chameleon, how about a book on tape?

They're better than reading, but without visuals (like a movie) they're not enough to hold my attention throughout the entire book. But they ARE better than reading!
I haven't tried them since I was a teen, but I bet they'd work even better now that I could put them on my mp3 player and walk around doing stuff while I listened.
Actually, that's a really good idea to try Clear Confusion, thanks! :)

You know if moving pictures help at www.addwarehouse.com (http://www.addwarehouse.com) there are a number of videos on different ADD subjects by Barkley and others. They're not cheap unfortunately, but a good one might be worth it.

Scattered

Glad I could be of help! :)