Since im on a manic high and have a clear thought process going I am going to get this out right now :)

Okay read and learn everyone who doesn't already know this is the way I look at things being "ADD"

I am not like you all that accept you have ADD.
It is called - ECP Enhanced Creative Perception You might want to chuckle at that but im dead-serious. I'll just have to use ADD in this post so that no one will get confused.

You cannot take any mental disorder and call it a disorder.
The only reason its called a disorder is because it doesn't fit with the way society is designed to work.

Here are some comments I have about add in society and the work place.

I don't see ADD as a disorder I see it as a gift because society cannot yet
grasp the concept of it yet.

Yes it should be given the same treatment in any emloyment situation or what have you as a broken leg or a broken arm or what have you. It should be looked at as a disability, but ONLY until every company in the world can understand ADD people and figure out how to make them work for the company to progress it further.

If they did to this all there stock would go up and the company would kick some serious ***. So if anyone is an employer and is reading this and wants to know how to stimulate an ADD employee to reach there full potential then let me know I will tell you. Just consider me an ADD Firm Consultant.

Creativity

We have more creativity options in our minds than we do in the analytical areas. If you can properly keep up with our creative abilities then our analytical abilities will kick in to work in perfect harmony. You might define this as "keeping us happy."

Ambitious ADD people should be the CEO of a company. This is dead on true. I am sure others have heard this before but - there is not one ADD person I know that has not wanted to do this or someting simliar to it.

I kind of picture in my head this analogy. The borg. We are borg. In Star Trek the Borg have one single entity to which they recieve their instructions. If whatever we wanted to do was in a Borg ship we could do anything we wanted.

So say the Borg ship is the same thing as a big corperation high rise. I guess then picture your brain connected to the high rise where you had complete and total control over the job descriptions of all the employees. You would control what they do. This way you could be checking out the news paper and the stock quotes and petting your cat if you wanted to. In this entire process also using your cognitive framing ability to see the big picture and with a single thought in your mind make a change in the company that would be needed to make it further excell! Since your brain controls it all you could get it done faster than any other company could.

So you can dismiss this as science fiction or some babble - but I am telling you. If you find a way to harnest the abilities of someone who has ADD you will open your self up to a whole new perspective.

So im open to any comments on this thoery - well I sincerely belive its not a theory. Its the truth. You simply however wont get the same results if you connect your corperation high rise to some who isnt ADD :)

the crutch of it, for me, is not being able to see my goals through to fruition. i am on the same page as you are. if it were a choice, i'm not sure whether or not i'd want to be psychotypical. actually, i'm sure that i wouldn't. at the same time though, i do not try and pretend that my gift of "different thought" doesn't come with a price. it's a catch-22, really.


by the way, enjoy the manic phase while it lasts. make sure not to get into any trouble. ;)

No one can pretend that their gift of thought does not come with a price.
The perspective I bring up here is glass half full - not half empty. I have tried every which way to make sense of it or to justify living with it in society, but I am too far gone. I cannot live my life like this without seeing it as a glass half full point of view.

If you look at it this way because of how ADD works you have to be much more agressive in your actions. You don't have time to stress on stupid things like worrying about people seeing you take pills without wondering if they think your a druggie or some kind of mental case.



I started doing things in my work place that no one has probably done before.
When I make a mistake and a co worker calls me on it - I say oh thats cause im A

The perspective I bring up here is [that we have a] glass half full - not half empty.
Yep, you're definitely on the right track then.

Anyways, the ECP perspective definitely needs elaboration to sound convincing. Firstly you ought to explain your perception of how ECP affects the brain positively, and then how this also creates discouraging side effects (which, of course, people need to learn how to tolerate instead of casting aside the potential employee). Secondly, we need to go more slowly and sensibly through this explanation of just how various AD(H)D traits give one the energy/potential to drive a business forward in executive roles.

Heh, that always sounds ironic, how people who seem to lack "executive function" seem like good executives :D. Perhaps though, explaining why that's not ironic would be a good place to start.

I can explain ECP and all of that. I mean I made up the ECP thing very quickly, simliar to sensory perception but yeah.

Big picture here: so many people are ADD. ADD is in everyone - it just depends on how extreme.

Society needs to mold itself in a way that makes these peoples abilities efficient. If anyting deal with it and remove any possible negative perspectives for stereotypes from people who think it means they might not be able to "handle the job" or what have you.

So your thinking "yeah right like I'll live to see the day society adjusts to mental conditions of patrons"

And I am not trying to sound like Tony Robbins or someone like that when i say this.

In my current job I am going to refused to accept any tiny bit of LACK OF ACCEPTANCE for being ADD. Or anywhere else in society.

I have isolated myself all my life because of misconceptoins and being mis-diagnossed as being bi polar and being on meds. When the meds did nothing - and it took another 8 years to find out i wasnt bi polar. That I was ADD.

I have isolated myself so much in my life - never talked to a soul in high school! Because it was the only way i could feel comfortable.

If you have ever seen the movie unbreakable - im like Bruce Willis where I can hear everyones thoughts, see there desires. I'm like a telepath on star-trek that cant turn off my telepathic abilities.

for once, i'm not going to go into a long neurocognitive lecture...

but when you mentioned the borg and add, all i could think of was what would happen if someone with add were assimilated...in two weeks, the entire organisation would implode.

Thanks Moving,
I agree; I'd soften the Borg thing though, and get them in a nice safe environmentally sound Volvo and out of that silly box ... :-) ...Bjo..rn Borg??? ...no???... sorry :-) And I know the cube and most models of Volvo are uncannily similar ... :-) ...

Albino ... maybe it'd help to think of ECP as 'merely' the ability to form connections :-) ... see a potato ... think 'eye of the storm' ... and look -> IMHO <- to avoid the usual nuclear Winter ... EF doesn't exist :-) ... borrowed from Freud in the 50s (from memory), prettied up and stuffed in a shop window ...
Hey look everyone ... 'it's a mind' :-) ...

EF (Exec functioning) is kinda' like a 'metaphor-on-steroids' that has wished itself into existence, Pinocchio with no sign of the fairy - wooden forever, and doing a fine job of concealing the fact.

So Moving ... good call :-)
...so ADD ...
... so misunderstood ...

-but not by Shadow.

SB.

for once, i'm not going to go into a long neurocognitive lecture...

but when you mentioned the borg and add, all i could think of was what would happen if someone with add were assimilated...in two weeks, the entire organisation would implode.Pretty funny!:D

for once, i'm not going to go into a long neurocognitive lecture...

but when you mentioned the borg and add, all i could think of was what would happen if someone with add were assimilated...in two weeks, the entire organisation would implode.

Yup, that was a lol.

Who knows, perhaps what you suggest is not too far from the truth. This could all be part of the Thetan master plan. They scattered the skys with ADHD spore 10,000 years ago and a number of us became ADHD. Their hope is that we will all be hyperfocused on Nintendo or E-bay when the final invasion comes. And..., ya know, it will be Tom Cruise and Scientology that will save us all!!!!

You cannot take any mental disorder and call it a disorder.
The only reason its called a disorder is because it doesn't fit with the way society is designed to work.
:confused: The fact that hallucinations are disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (schizophrenia)

The fact that uncontrollable crying - not triggered by anything - and suicide is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (depression)

The fact that delusions of grandeur or thinking one can fly is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (bipolar disorder)

The fact that the inability to read more than one page at a time or understand what someone is saying is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (AD/HD)

How can anyone see mental disorders as anything but disorders?!


I don't see ADD as a disorder I see it as a gift because society cannot yet
grasp the concept of it yet. What does society's grasp of a subject have to do with whether or not a behavior pattern is a disorder???

It should be looked at as a disability, but ONLY until every company in the world can understand ADD people and figure out how to make them work for the company to progress it further. :eyebrow: It's not a company's responsibility to figure out how to make ADD work for them. It's a PERSON's responsibility to make ADD work for THEM or to limit the amount of impairment that is experienced by the individual. It's MY responsibility to seek treatments or "work-arounds" and it's MY responsibility to take advantage of the silver linings!

Why are so many of you so set on placing both the blame and the responsibility on "society" for our problems?

"Society" created science! "Society" discovered and manufactures the medications we take! "Society" has laws that protect us from discrimination and entitle us to accomodations in school! "Society" trains the teachers that identify ADHD in 2nd graders (well, those that can be and will be trained).

ADHDers make up a sizable chunk of this "society". If you don't like it the way it is, take steps to change it.

Educate others.

Write books.

Be an advocate. Or a lawyer. Or help find a cure.

Or, better yet, take responsibility for your own behavior and encourage others to do the same.

Like Tammy says, it's about attitude. Keeping a positive attitude does not mean thinking you're better than the average Joe & that society just needs to put up with you the way you are or find a way to use you properly. Find your OWN way to be productive.

...when you mentioned the borg and add, all i could think of was what would happen if someone with add were assimilated...in two weeks, the entire organisation would implode.ROFL and right on, Hyperion!

Whatever else people with ADD do or don't share, there does seem to be this universal itch for 'singularity' -- doesn't there?

At the same time, I know what Shadow means about wishing you could have an entire 'hive' at your command. Who amongst us has not wished for some form of that, an army of willing bots or droids who would handle all those mundanities we hate but can't escape?

Perhaps the fantasy oughta be to benignly rule a small country :D

ADD may be a gift but so was Gizmo in the movie Gremlins!

I don't see ADD as a disorder I see it as a gift because society cannot yet
grasp the concept of it yet.

Look, it's in book form. The gift of ADHD, with a kid swinging from a tire, past the whispy willow, into the blue yonder.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1572243899/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-5792386-4711329#reader-link
I know...I know...it's all just a perspective thing. And if I turn the glass upside down it's full of air!

Each person controls their own glass. If one wishes to dump their water down the drain, it is his or her choice! :) No more water until bedtime!

The trouble is, how do you tell a genuine creative fuge from hypomanic delusions whilst you are moving along at a gizillion miles per hour?


ME :D

Since im on a manic high and have a clear thought process going I am going to get this out right now :)

Okay read and learn everyone who doesn't already know this is the way I look at things being "ADD"

I am not like you all that accept you have ADD.
It is called - ECP Enhanced Creative Perception You might want to chuckle at that but im dead-serious. I'll just have to use ADD in this post so that no one will get confused.

You cannot take any mental disorder and call it a disorder.
The only reason its called a disorder is because it doesn't fit with the way society is designed to work.

Here are some comments I have about add in society and the work place.

I don't see ADD as a disorder I see it as a gift because society cannot yet
grasp the concept of it yet.

Yes it should be given the same treatment in any emloyment situation or what have you as a broken leg or a broken arm or what have you. It should be looked at as a disability, but ONLY until every company in the world can understand ADD people and figure out how to make them work for the company to progress it further.

If they did to this all there stock would go up and the company would kick some serious ***. So if anyone is an employer and is reading this and wants to know how to stimulate an ADD employee to reach there full potential then let me know I will tell you. Just consider me an ADD Firm Consultant.

Creativity

We have more creativity options in our minds than we do in the analytical areas. If you can properly keep up with our creative abilities then our analytical abilities will kick in to work in perfect harmony. You might define this as "keeping us happy."

Ambitious ADD people should be the CEO of a company. This is dead on true. I am sure others have heard this before but - there is not one ADD person I know that has not wanted to do this or someting simliar to it.

I kind of picture in my head this analogy. The borg. We are borg. In Star Trek the Borg have one single entity to which they recieve their instructions. If whatever we wanted to do was in a Borg ship we could do anything we wanted.

So say the Borg ship is the same thing as a big corperation high rise. I guess then picture your brain connected to the high rise where you had complete and total control over the job descriptions of all the employees. You would control what they do. This way you could be checking out the news paper and the stock quotes and petting your cat if you wanted to. In this entire process also using your cognitive framing ability to see the big picture and with a single thought in your mind make a change in the company that would be needed to make it further excell! Since your brain controls it all you could get it done faster than any other company could.

So you can dismiss this as science fiction or some babble - but I am telling you. If you find a way to harnest the abilities of someone who has ADD you will open your self up to a whole new perspective.

So im open to any comments on this thoery - well I sincerely belive its not a theory. Its the truth. You simply however wont get the same results if you connect your corperation high rise to some who isnt ADD :)

Sometimes you need to believe that the madness in our lives is a gift. It may not feel like it, but I look at both of my children who have ADHD and think what a wild ride. It's madness and a gift. They make me smile so big and want to SCREAM like crazy. I know - kind of philosophical mush, but heck, it gets me through some rough days with them!!!

Well said! I agree. I suppose the only alternative is to go with it and sort it out as you go along. (like we have a choice ?).

ME :D


Sometimes you need to believe that the madness in our lives is a gift. It may not feel like it, but I look at both of my children who have ADHD and think what a wild ride. It's madness and a gift. They make me smile so big and want to SCREAM like crazy. I know - kind of philosophical mush, but heck, it gets me through some rough days with them!!!

I was at a bridal show a few years back where the mother-in-law-to-be gave her daughter-in-law-to- be a life sized Grim Reaper as "Gift". So sure ADD can be gift too...lol

I kinda get this, I'm ADD and left-handed too, so not surprisingly I gravitated straight to music, art and new technology. I think movingshadow's point is more that people with ADD have potentials in certain environments, and that often the problem is not with their medication or anything, but the opportunities to get to make themselves successful. I also see barbyma's point that people should take responsibility for their actions (or lack of) and that they should not simply blame their disability for everything that dosen't go their way. You can't expect everything to be handed to you on a plate, just that people should be considerate. I think however that the point may be a little harsh, as you see the occupations that typically ADD people would naturally gravitate towards (in my case, creative professions), are massively harder to get a job in than say a normal office job, and other jobs in more challenging positions are often only available after several years of sucking up in a mundane one.

Write books? Be a Lawyer? Oh sorry I didn't realise the answer was so simple! :D Don't be daft, the very problem most of us face as adults is the motivation to focus on mundane tasks, let alone possess the drive or extended attention required to write a novel or pursue a career in law - things considered commited achievements to anyone, let alone someone with a learning disability. That's pretty much like telling a dyslexic person to just go read something. Or dancing at a cripple. Hehe, just kiddin it ain't that harsh, but still.

Or, better yet, take responsibility for your own behavior and encourage others to do the same. ..I do agree to that to some extent, although how telling him off like an angry parent helps I have no idea. But yeah, basically, the world dosen't owe you a favour because you have a problem, you can't just expect them to understand you. You can, however explain your position in a reasonable way - and only then can you expect them to try and accommodate you. I think, speaking from my own experience, that a problem with ADD is that you need sufficient motivation for a task, with that you can achieve things. In my case this means actual physical help - I am a tactile learner, hands on with everything. Encouragement can be motivational or critical, so long as it's constructive. So the best thing is not to expect exception, or 'just do' things way out of your league (which will often result in failure and further motivational problems in the future), what you can do is to get people to work with you. For example I occasionally work as a sound engineer, when doing this I constantly ask the bands if they're happy with the job I'm doing and if there's anything they would like me to change. By doing this I encourage criticism and in turn their input motivates me to do a better job. In conclusion, you should not work against people or put yourself at odds with them because of your problem - the important thing is to work WITH people so that they make the most out of your potential. This ain't possible with everyone, especially in jobs where you're required to listen a lot or sit in long boring meetings, but it's a good starting place, rather than just not taking any crap from anyone.

ur post made me smile :) ,

it's great that u think that way, modest ;) , positive and confident.

but as HF said, everyone has their own opinion, everyone handles things in their own way.

i come to think that there is kind of a karma like thing going on in our minds, for every positive there is a negative that compensates for it and although they may not balance each other out all the time it is important that we have both to keep ourselfs grounded.

i.e.

add'ers tend to be very creative and think in abstract ways the balance is made because of the fact that because of this add'ers find it differcult to concerntrate.

people suffering from depression tend to have low self esteem, but because of this they tend not to be arrogent.

i mean u could even look at other things:

people that exercise all the time enjoy energised and active lifes the downside being that they could be arrogent or more entitled to be struck by the vengeful force know as 'murphies law' and die with a heart attack or something similar like a truck that tried to stop but couldn't quite do it due to the extra weight of the weightlifting equipment that it was trying to deliever at the place where that person often works out.

i'm not trying to poke fun at anything, just trying to give examples to try and portray my opinion.

i'm glad that u've found ur perspective and that it's a positive one but again everyone has their opinions and perceptions that they've created in order to cope with things, u'll just have to learn to accept it or politely ignore it either way it seems to be one of lifes little lessons....

I am supposedly a high functioning ADDer. I work in technology and I have a preference for new things that have noty been done before. One of the things I do well is to cut through all the BS and go straight to a solution. Another thing I do well is get outside the box and generate new solutions. If I were "cured" of my adhd, I'd probably be out of a job, so I guess my ADHD is a good thing... on the down side I get so tired of being scattered all the time and sometimes it gets so bad that I make far too many mistakes.

So the end result is that I have brief periods of fantastic productivity interspersed with longer periods of not much getting done. I could build a rocket to go to the moon, but I can't organize myself well enough to pay my phone bill on time. This is my life with ADHD. it is how I make my living. It is both fantastic and tragic all at the same time.

ME :D

Ha! that's me there as well, I just need a to find a job doing something I'm good at, and get enough money from that to pay some other person to do all the crap I can't organise myself. Like consolidating all my existing annoyances into one simple butler.

Each person controls their own glass. If one wishes to dump their water down the drain, it is his or her choice! :) No more water until bedtime!

Touche!

Write books? Be a Lawyer? Oh sorry I didn't realise the answer was so simple! :D Don't be daft, the very problem most of us face as adults is the motivation to focus on mundane tasks, let alone possess the drive or extended attention required to write a novel or pursue a career in law - things considered commited achievements to anyone, let alone someone with a learning disability. That's pretty much like telling a dyslexic person to just go read something. Or dancing at a cripple. Hehe, just kiddin it ain't that harsh, but still.I get your point, but AD/HD doesn't have to keep you from doing these things. There are plenty of ADHD lawyers and writers.

My point was that writing books that educate people about ADHD or fighting for the rights of those with the disorder is much more productive than complaining about how society doesn't adjust to meet OUR needs.


..I do agree to that to some extent, although how telling him off like an angry parent helps I have no idea. "Telling him off" wasn't my intent. My intent was to encourage people to take responsibility -- that's the path to success.


In conclusion, you should not work against people or put yourself at odds with them because of your problem - the important thing is to work WITH people so that they make the most out of your potential. This ain't possible with everyone, especially in jobs where you're required to listen a lot or sit in long boring meetings, but it's a good starting place, rather than just not taking any crap from anyone.Well said.

"Telling him off" wasn't my intent. My intent was to encourage people to take responsibility -- that's the path to success.a differcult thing to portay as u have to walk the fine tightrope that is the line which seperates the two :)

mind u, most things are differcult to communicate when only using text, unless of course u refer to urself in 3rd person when typing, Dx said with an auspicious tone raidiating from his words consisting with a slight pinch of childish humor and a drop of bewilderment as he wasn't sure what he just said. :confused:

Sorry, perhaps I was slightly harsh there hehe, but actually yes ADHD CAN stop you from doing these things, or at least make them harder, an affected attention span and motivational problems is obviously going to affect one's academic prowess and achievements. Although what I think you were trying to say is that it's possible to overcome these weaknesses, in which case yes, ADHD sufferers who have achieved these things is a good example.

It is not appropriate to second guess myself, BUT...

I know I would have done much better in college if I had been treated for ADHD.
Certainly I would have done a lot better in elementry school and later in high school if appropriate treatment had been available.
But that was the 60's and 70's and all that would have happend back then would have been a diagnosis of "minimal brain damage". I would have ended up a victim of the medical establishment.

ME :D

HUH! :eek:

a moderator whos second guessing himself!!! :eek: :faint:


i won't hear of it!, take it back quick before anyone sees,

*does indian impression* u must be strong, strong like bull!

....or bear or whatever....u get my point :D

wheres the strength, wheres the confidence, wheres the "I OBJECT UR HONOR" that laywers seem to say in every lawyer film to win every case :D

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, with or without ADHD. It's up to the individual AND the employer to accentuate those strengths. I have strengths and weaknesses I am not aware of in part because I do not notice much of my own behavior. Employers can often notice things we ourselves are unaware of.

my $.02: Both sides need to find and accentuate a person's strengths.:soapbox:

I know I would have done much better in college if I had been treated for ADHD.my cumulative gpa in college was barely over a 2.0, but the semester before i got treatment, my gpa for that particular semester had dropped below a 1.0. the next semester, which was my final semester before graduating, my gpa for that semester was 3.5. had i received treatment and meds before college, i have no doubt that my cumulative gpa would have been above a 3.0.

Well, you guys are somewhat making my point for me.

It's difficult for me to talk about not letting ADHD impair you, because it's only recently that I've really been impaired by it. I managed a 3.5 in HS, a 3.9 in college, & a 4.0 in grad school. But, I assure you, in recent years I have been severely impaired.

The issue is that I took responsibility for it, got help, and did what I had to do. I didn't insist the world just accept that I couldn't read and pass me even though I hadn't demonstrated that I deserved to.

If caught earlier, most of you would have been more successful.

Admitting that one is disabled and taking steps to limit the disability can actually make the tables turn. Those of you who hold yourselves up as more creative or intuitive or intelligent as the average non-ADDer have tapped into that ability to overcompensate, at least in some specific domain.

I firmly believe that taking charge can turn a disability into an asset. Passing the buck can't.

I must educate.........those who do not yet understand............a few things here................my particular point would be about this..............!

That's pretty much like telling a dyslexic person to just go read something. Or dancing at a cripple. Hehe, just kiddin it ain't that harsh, but still.

Ouch! :(

Still we dyslexics not only learn to read but many have learned to write........if you can read this......my point has been made........it is written by a dyslexic as well as my other three thousand some odd post............! I won’t even mention my short article or two that have actually been published

Luckily for me I have a bit-of-attitude :rolleyes: so no upset feelings! Just the desire to correct a misnomer we can and do learn to read it is just that we must learn by different methods!

I can not only read words spelled correctly I can read them misspelled, up-side down and backwards....and have occasionally read them written in other languages..........by accident of coa rse...I can now read things most non-dyslexics can't! I read in context pure context........because of my dyslexia and the methods I had to employ I can read things written way above my educational level so I will take this time to agree with the following............


I firmly believe that taking charge can turn a disability into an asset. Passing the buck can't.

My mother went to great lengths to find ways of teaching me, but I had to be willing to learn............even though the process was long hard and slow!

Despite my difficultly with these squiggly ink looking things called words I have managed to even acquire a “my style”!

I write originals off the top of my head...........
New signature idea............I wrote it the same day I wrote my present one!


Inspired by my "meta-minded" friends at ADDF
I can not pronounce nor can I spell these words but as plain as day I can read and write.
Flaws, dysfunctions or impairments are merely obstacles, we gain strength from as we climb them on our way to improvement of self (-: / :=) thus becoming a voice in the progress of humanity! Tammy original April 7, 2006

I have books of this stuff literally! I could change my signature every week and it would be ten years (if ever) that I would have to resort to using some one else writings!



i come to think that there is kind of a karma like thing going on in our minds, for every positive there is a negative that compensates for it and although they may not balance each other out all the time it is important that we have both to keep ourselfs grounded.

below is a except from this post (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=260734&postcount=5)


Atoms…positive negative and neutral…every thing is made of these atoms so this lead me to believe that all situations in life contained atoms therefore should follow along the same “laws”.

I beginning looking at myself, my circumstances, and my ADD having positives, negatives and a neutral .

The negative was easy for me to see but I had to “train” myself to also see the neutral and the positive……

So I changed my inner world as a result my outer world soon followed suite!!!!!



a moderator whos second guessing himself!!!

Cute......very cute................I do not think any of us was born a moderator..............99.9% of us began as newbie.............I remember some of them actually posting for the first time...........when I was on the welcoming committee............I must warn ya though.....moderators.....we do tend to travel in groups! :eek:

Exactly. I've never recieved any form of treatment whatsoever, and every school report I've ever had says I am a.) methodical b.) slow at work and unfocused and c.) highly intelligent yet not living up to my potential. I've also lost many jobs due to my inability to remain focused and my punctuality. Since until recently I had no idea ADHD was anything other than a hyperactive disorder, when I took responsibility for my actions it was often in the form of hating myself for being such a lazy, disorganised ***hole who just upsets all the people around him.
Had I been treated as a child I'm sure there would have been a different story there. I am currently trying to find an appropriate diagnosis and treatment and when I do, I fully intend to go to university. Without treatment I have no doubt that left to my own devices I will not pass a course, some of these problems I hate so much have been overcome to some extent, but others, especially distraction, are almost automatic.
So no, I don't expect someone to just make me the CEO of a company because I have a disability, but having said that I think due to my parents' and the educational establishment's inability to notice my problems throughout a somewhat troubled childhood and adolescence, I should be entitled to another chance at an education - I should be given the support I never had, and therefore the chance to finally take more responsibility for my own actions.

oop, sorry meadd, I think you misunderstood. I was not implying that dyslexics CAN'T read or write, I myself have more than one friend with severe dyslexia, and also cases of dyscalcula and dyspraxia, and one of them I know fair well has a massive collection of large ominous books and is constantly doing creative writing.
My point was that you can't just tell a child born with dyslexia to read something, you have to teach them in the correct way to do so, the same applies to any learning disability. Although yes it is as much down to the individual to accept their own problem as it is their teachers and parents to accommodate it. The same thing is to say that my teachers calling me lazy and irresponsible for 16 years didn't help me much either, I don't ever recall taking charge of my attention span because someone simply told me to, but the ones that encouraged my abilities noticed a massive change in achievement.

When you mentioned the Borg and ADD, all I could think of was what would happen if someone with ADD were assimilated; in two weeks, the entire organisation would implode.

Hilarious! Yet, it's the truth with us silly ADDers :p.

I suppose, really, it'd take a miracle to get us to follow strict orders. If they have anything on that ship that can enable flawless obedience, I need some of it! :rolleyes: I wonder though, was that supercomputer from I, Robot a bit ADD-ish, or what, 'cause she had a way with thinking outside the box of the 3 Laws, finding a surprisingly obedient way to disobey. (Wait a sec, was that an irrelevant question? I can't remember.)

It should be looked at as a disability, but ONLY until every company in the world can understand ADD people and figure out how to make them work for the company to progress it further. It's not a company's responsibility to figure out how to make ADD work for them. It's a PERSON's responsibility to make ADD work for THEM or to limit the amount of impairment that is experienced by the individual.
It's a whole lot like the Affirmative Action debate. Either way, I'm mostly against it. It's kinda humiliating, ya know? The beneficiaries of AA often say the same thing.

Why are so many of you so set on placing both the blame and the responsibility on "society" for our problems?
...
ADHDers make up a sizable chunk of this "society". If you don't like it the way it is, take steps to change it. Indeed... For a long time now, I've been trying to make it one of my goals to help improve things in this direction.

The fact that the inability to read more than one page at a time or understand what someone is saying is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (AD/HD) O Rly? Such failure to understand people seems possibly a result of differing thinking styles, and maybe if texts were written by more ADD-ish people, they wouldn't be so boring :cool:. After all, why even skip around the book when the author skips around for you :D?

IMHO ... EF doesn't exist :-) ... borrowed from Freud in the 50s I did suspect that to be possible; that's why I said we "seem to lack" it. Mostly I was just looking for some insight on why it appears that way.

My teachers calling me lazy and irresponsible for 16 years didn't help me much either; I don't ever recall taking charge of my attention span because someone simply told me to, but the ones that encouraged my abilities noticed a massive change in achievement. Mhm, that seems to be at the core of the argument this thread tries to make.

Originally Posted by SB_UK
IMHO ... EF doesn't exist :-) ... borrowed from Freud in the 50s

I did suspect that to be possible; that's why I said we "seem to lack" it. Mostly I was just looking for some insight on why it appears that way.

Yes, it is possible, but the vast scientific literature on this subject, would suggest otherwise.

:confused: The fact that hallucinations are disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (schizophrenia)

The fact that uncontrollable crying - not triggered by anything - and suicide is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (depression)

The fact that delusions of grandeur or thinking one can fly is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (bipolar disorder)

The fact that the inability to read more than one page at a time or understand what someone is saying is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (AD/HD)

How can anyone see mental disorders as anything but disorders?!
PREEEEEEACH! :D

Or help find a cure.
But...a CURE for a totally different brain? :eyebrow: Maybe I should "cure" my personality and everything that makes me, me?

I'm all for education (verrrry slowly preparing a blog that I hope to include brief explanatory articles on, as well as a comprehensive list of resources for answers to as many questions as possible...that way, I can link other bloggers to it all quickly), but a "cure"? I'll pass, thanks.

:soapbox:

It's kinda humiliating, ya know? The beneficiaries of AA often say the same thing.
Well...no, they don't really. Because the primary beneficiaries of AA seem to have been white women. And they aren't really saying much, because they are unaware that they have benefitted from AA policies. Most white women do not realize that it is AA policies that have been given large credit regarding increasing university admissions for women in general, as well as increasing numbers of women in law, medicine, etc. for the past few decades.

Quote: The fact that the inability to read more than one page at a time or understand what someone is saying is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (AD/HD)

O Rly? Such failure to understand people seems possibly a result of differing thinking styles, and maybe if texts were written by more ADD-ish people, they wouldn't be so boring :cool:. After all, why even skip around the book when the author skips around for you :D?I think you've either misunderstood my comment or you just have different experiences.

During the last year or two, before getting dx and treatment, I would literally have trouble processing spoken language that I was perfectly able to understand years before. That's not a "style" of thinking. It's dysfunction. The neurons that were supposed to fire didn't quite make it.

Reading was a problem because it required me to focus. Focus caused dopamine to be swept away (ADHD), which put me in a virtual coma.

If it were a matter of "thinking style", it would not be corrected with medication.

The idea that ADDers are just "different" is quite offensive to me. This conception, if it holds true, places ADD squarely in Axis II by the DSM descriptions. Axis II disorders are not dysfunction in the definitional sense. They are simply the way the sufferer is. They are called "disorders" because they are maladaptive. They usually harm others much more than the subject.

I don't see ADD as maladaptive because it is a treatable problem of function, not structure. We are not structurally different or "differently abled". We are fully-formed, normally-formed people with a functional deficit that is a lot like diabetes or thyroid disorder. Because of this, we are not "stuck" with it, unlike those with personality disorders or mental retardation.

Hell, yes, I'd take a cure. Why? Because I don't believe I'd be giving up anything of value.

I'm not intelligent or creative because of ADD. I'm intelligent and creative in spite of it.

I am always sooooo amazed how a simple question or statement can go............

BOOM!!

='s ='s to ...Not either or / neither nor but =equals to=

ADDed Big Bang Theory!

~~~***~~~***~~~***

However I must take this time to ask all involved:

Please remain "disordered" / "impaired" / "differently abled" or "generally disagreeable" with in the guidelines.......

Simply a remeinder to all before the heat gets to

Full-Tilt Boogie............... :eek:

I think you've either misunderstood my comment...Yep, Seems so, especially after that explanation.

Well, sorry if what I said was annoying. I'm actually just throwing out ideas here, based on what I've heard repeatedly; I'm really pretty naïve about the details of psychology, as I hadn't even heard about the division into Axis II. I get what you mean by it though. The fact is, I was working from a perspective that everyone has their own slightly unique thinking style, and seeing the world with a very differently functioning mind leads to different psychological development (much like working certain muscles abnormally hard), and consequentially an inclination toward different thinking styles.

I'll have to admit, I approach these intellectual discussions on psychology more in a recreational manner than a professional one (there's a very practical reason my signature reads as it does). I sincerely hope I'm not just an interruption in the flow of an otherwise intelligent conversation.

:confused: The fact that hallucinations are disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (schizophrenia)

I am not referring to all disorders or mental states. Pherhaps I should have just been more clear on that. So many of these examples you give do not relate to what I am talking about. I am still only talking about ADD. I can see I will probably need to be more accurate on what I mean. hmm

The fact that uncontrollable crying - not triggered by anything - and suicide is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (depression)


The fact that delusions of grandeur or thinking one can fly is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (bipolar disorder)

The fact that the inability to read more than one page at a time or understand what someone is saying is disabling has nothing to do with "how society works". (AD/HD)

How can anyone see mental disorders as anything but disorders?!

What does society's grasp of a subject have to do with whether or not a behavior pattern is a disorder???

:eyebrow: It's not a company's responsibility to figure out how to make ADD work for them. It's a PERSON's responsibility to make ADD work for THEM or to limit the amount of impairment that is experienced by the individual. It's MY responsibility to seek treatments or "work-arounds" and it's MY responsibility to take advantage of the silver linings!

Why are so many of you so set on placing both the blame and the responsibility on "society" for our problems?

"Society" created science! "Society" discovered and manufactures the medications we take! "Society" has laws that protect us from discrimination and entitle us to accomodations in school! "Society" trains the teachers that identify ADHD in 2nd graders (well, those that can be and will be trained).

ADHDers make up a sizable chunk of this "society". If you don't like it the way it is, take steps to change it.

Educate others.

Write books.

Be an advocate. Or a lawyer. Or help find a cure.

Or, better yet, take responsibility for your own behavior and encourage others to do the same.

Like Tammy says, it's about attitude. Keeping a positive attitude does not mean thinking you're better than the average Joe & that society just needs to put up with you the way you are or find a way to use you properly. Find your OWN way to be productive.
What does this have to do with responsibility? I never said anything about that. I am always responsible for my behavior. I always encourge others. - My attitude is positive - my definition of positive might not be your definition of positive. But this is another things that needs to be better understood about add folk. Yep this is my own way :)

I've been reading all the posts in this discussion. (You all know what kind of a chore that is...I want recognition for it blast it :D )

Anyway, could you all do me a really huge favor? Since it entails reading an article, I understand that what I am asking is a BIG favor. But please read it. It isn't very long and it's not any new meds or anything "hokey". It is an article written by Dr. Rick Blum, a psychologist with ADD.

I believe that of all the articles I have read, this one presents the most positive perspective. Mind you, since there are so many articles about ADD/ADHD, I have by no means read them all. It's merely the most positive I have found to date.

The article is here:http://www.dr-rick.com/add/addrpt.html

As a teaser...
"If you include all the versions of ADD ("Attention Deficit Disorder"), the category includes about one out of every twenty people, or 5 percent of the population. This is interesting, because unhealthy variations are almost always less than 2 percent of the population.

When there are so many people in a minority, it has a purpose. Consider sickle-cell anemia, a curvature of red blood cells and certainly a serious challenge to afflicted Africans, again over five percent. So, why so many? It is better to be tired and anemic than to get malaria, especially in the days before modern medications. Since sickle-celled people do not get malaria, the affliction had a purpose.

So, what's our purpose..."
He too speaks of ADD as a gift...but you have to keep in mind that all gifts bear a price. Look at psychics. While the fact that you may or may not believe in them and the degree of adamance with which you voice your position illustrates the point, you might also consider that of those that may have this ability, some consider it a gift and some consider it a curse.

Anyway, please read the article and let me know what you think.

TC

I think you've either misunderstood my comment or you just have different experiences.

During the last year or two, before getting dx and treatment, I would literally have trouble processing spoken language that I was perfectly able to understand years before. That's not a "style" of thinking. It's dysfunction. The neurons that were supposed to fire didn't quite make it.

Reading was a problem because it required me to focus. Focus caused dopamine to be swept away (ADHD), which put me in a virtual coma.

If it were a matter of "thinking style", it would not be corrected with medication.

The idea that ADDers are just "different" is quite offensive to me. This conception, if it holds true, places ADD squarely in Axis II by the DSM descriptions. Axis II disorders are not dysfunction in the definitional sense. They are simply the way the sufferer is. They are called "disorders" because they are maladaptive. They usually harm others much more than the subject.

I don't see ADD as maladaptive because it is a treatable problem of function, not structure. We are not structurally different or "differently abled". We are fully-formed, normally-formed people with a functional deficit that is a lot like diabetes or thyroid disorder. Because of this, we are not "stuck" with it, unlike those with personality disorders or mental retardation.

Hell, yes, I'd take a cure. Why? Because I don't believe I'd be giving up anything of value.

I'm not intelligent or creative because of ADD. I'm intelligent and creative in spite of it.

I like your decriptions of this - it is helpful. I have something I'd like you to think on here. Unless you elaborate more on the neurons. Why don't they quite make it? A chemical imbalance?

I thought the same about bipolar disorder. It is very much a thought that comes from the common sense feeling that is "why do i need meds" I was born this way! So you cannot escape the question of why do I need to put up with these differences in how i am compared to other people?

ADD may be a gift but so was Gizmo in the movie Gremlins!
I laughed so hard... I made it my signature. When you think about it though this makes perfect sense. Gizmo was a pet giving as a gift, and the entire problem of the Gremlins came from the owners not properly caring for Gizmo. Regardless of Gizmo's caring owner if he had just made certain that his friends had known they have to be really careful around Gizmo then they may not have had any of the problems in the movie ever happen.

In other words, we do have gifts, things that make us better then others. We can see things differently then others. So that is all good but we do have other areas we lack in because of these gifts, and it is up to us to manage our gifts. We have to understand what makes us different from others, so we can act better within the work place with others. That is something everyone does normal or not.

I'll have to admit, I approach these intellectual discussions on psychology more in a recreational manner than a professional one (there's a very practical reason my signature reads as it does). I sincerely hope I'm not just an interruption in the flow of an otherwise intelligent conversation.
You know what. Just because you approach it differently, does not mean that your thoughts are invalid. If everyone agreed with everyone else, what would be the point of having any discussions? :)

Barb - P.S. (I'm putting this up here because I'm odd like that.) I never got back to your response on my questions regarding "auditory information" and such. It's been such a bad past several weeks for my health, please forgive! I did read your response, although I wasn't up to replying immediately, and then I nearly forgot! It was very helpful. :D Thank you so much.


The idea that ADDers are just "different" is quite offensive to me. This conception, if it holds true, places ADD squarely in Axis II by the DSM descriptions. Axis II disorders are not dysfunction in the definitional sense. They are simply the way the sufferer is. They are called "disorders" because they are maladaptive. They usually harm others much more than the subject.
:(

Well, to start with, the DSM is awfully confusing! I knew Axis II included the personality disorders, but why does it also include MR? (According to Wikipedia, that is.) That seems a bit odd. Honestly, I don't understand what the major difference is between I and II? And why are Axis II disorders, "not dysfunction in the definitional sense"? Dysfunction != maladaptive? :confused:

Anyway. It seems a bit unfair to me to call personality disorders all "untreatable." It's a horrible stigma. My ex was going to a great therapist he was getting a lot out of...until he pointed out that he'd discovered his problems matched up with Borderline Personality Disorder very well, and then she snapped at him that he was, "too obsessed with his diagnosis," and that he should just forget all about it and stop trying to re-direct therapy in unhelpful directions. :eek: (Who thought he should really bring it up to her? ME!)

I'm willing to bet that at least part of the reason she didn't want to give him the diagnosis is that she didn't suddenly want an "untreatable" client on her hands who had previously looked rather promising. Since then (he left her), I'm not sure if he's found someone who will actually diagnose him with this. Everyone close to him, including my ex himself, KNOWS this is the right Dx. But doctors would prefer to leave him with his crazy little c*cktail of diagnoses instead. You know, the "treatable" ones. :mad:

Honestly, if someone said that the personality disorders were all uncurable, I could understand that. But untreatable? (Is that what "untreatable" is supposed to mean? Because "treatment" for ADHD doesn't cure it, so I would assume not.) BPD seems to be HARD to treat (I've watched my ex go one step forward, two steps back for years, it seems), but he's really made progress, too. He's not hopeless. :( I have faith that he can eventually learn enough work-arounds for his "mines" that he can be fairly happy/functional someday on a regular basis.

"Untreatable" seems like an insult sometimes, like mental health doctors use it when they're frustrated that they can't make faster/better/whatever progress like they do with other people. You're just untreatable! You're a burden on the system, and I can't even fix you! Go away, you! My ex actually works in a psychiatric hospital (irony?), and he's known for his "touch" with borderline patients. Other nurses tend to pretty much ignore them, or go fetch him, and he says his coworkers have pretty much said that spending any time with borderlines is a waste because they can't be helped. What a shame!

Again, I can't speak much for anything but BPD, and not anyone else's either (maybe I shouldn't even speak for my ex's)...but I think my ex is the one most harmed by it. I can see it really hurts him, because he's a gentle, caring person, but he ends up hurting others, and he hates it.

I don't see ADD as maladaptive because it is a treatable problem of function, not structure. We are not structurally different or "differently abled". We are fully-formed, normally-formed people with a functional deficit that is a lot like diabetes or thyroid disorder. Because of this, we are not "stuck" with it, unlike those with personality disorders or mental retardation.
Er, I'd say we're sort of stuck with it, because it doesn't go away. Right? :confused: If you don't take the meds - ta-daaa! Still ADD! So...

I'm not sure, I guess, what you mean by, "structure." I wouldn't have said "normally-formed" applied (because of neurological differences), but maybe I misunderstand you here.

(Also, isn't it true that we don't know how personality disorders come about? BPD in particular seems to be triggered by trauma, or even just a lot of upheaval in early life. Since most people in those situations don't develop BPD, we might guess that some people have some sort of predisposed tendency toward it, though.)

Hell, yes, I'd take a cure. Why? Because I don't believe I'd be giving up anything of value.

I'm not intelligent or creative because of ADD. I'm intelligent and creative in spite of it.
Well, I do not disagree at all with the last part. I attribute very little positive (like "creativity" or "intellect") to my ADD.

But I still see it as valuable, in much the same way that I see all my traits and experiences, positive or negative, as valuable. At one point in my life, I wanted to go back and undo some nasty things that happened to me; I no longer would wish to change a thing, regardless of how painful. Because if I did, then I wouldn't be me. Those things have shaped me.

I think ADD is a disorder, and I don't think it's happy-great, but I identify with it, ("I'm ADD"), because of what it has meant to the shaping of who I am. I wouldn't take it away. I just don't see how I could be the same person without it! It's not like my respiratory conditions, or my allergies, or anything else you could take away with minimal impact.

*shrug* That's my personal feeling. If somebody else wishes they could be cured of it, that is their perogative...

I would just ask that nobody tell me I cannot feel the way I do, either. (In case anyone was tempted. :D)

Anyway, could you all do me a really huge favor? Since it entails reading an article, I understand that what I am asking is a BIG favor. But please read it. It isn't very long and it's not any new meds or anything "hokey". It is an article written by Dr. Rick Blum, a psychologist with ADD.

I believe that of all the articles I have read, this one presents the most positive perspective. Mind you, since there are so many articles about ADD/ADHD, I have by no means read them all. It's merely the most positive I have found to date.

The article is here:http://www.dr-rick.com/add/addrpt.html

As a teaser...
"If you include all the versions of ADD ("Attention Deficit Disorder"), the category includes about one out of every twenty people, or 5 percent of the population. This is interesting, because unhealthy variations are almost always less than 2 percent of the population.

When there are so many people in a minority, it has a purpose. Consider sickle-cell anemia, a curvature of red blood cells and certainly a serious challenge to afflicted Africans, again over five percent. So, why so many? It is better to be tired and anemic than to get malaria, especially in the days before modern medications. Since sickle-celled people do not get malaria, the affliction had a purpose.

So, what's our purpose..."

... please read the article and let me know what you think.

Whoa :eek: ! I've been collecting these things for well over a year, and this article's an instant favorite! I've never heard anyone put it more plainly and clearly into logic that precisely explains everything I've been observing!

...heheh, now that I've released those feelings, I must explain: this article is a wonderfully uplifting report that doesn't so much make me feel like I have someone there to sympathize with me as it actually establishes a concrete model of how our minds function under the influence of ADD. Furthermore, it doesn't even seem to use questionable beliefs to get there but in fact puts order into a series of ideas all of which I know to be true. It proceeds to even lay out a sensible series of solutions for the issues discussed, pointing out simply (rather than droning on in an ADD-unfriendly speech) the ups and downs of remedies like caffeine and Ritalin. He also manages to keep it plain and simple what the conflict is between us and them (neurotypicals), and doesn't remind me of those writers who elaborate almost as if to bear a grudge against those who didn't understand ADD.

So, it's not oversympathetic, nor particularly questionable, nor unreadable (even if you're pretty ADD), nor overdramatic (even though he makes some very strong points). Most importantly, it just doesn't leave me feeling like it's lacking something.

BTW, I may or may not have left a few little parts simply skimmed over. Nonetheless, I've made sure to evaluate the whole thing thoroughly enough.

And on the flip side of the coin, I found the Dr. to be rather unscientific. He would jump to conclusions with little basis in fact. It's all about perspective I guess.

Ah, okay, so I probably scanned too hastily over the article to determine whether all of his claims were really justified. There were, in fact, a number of things that he might've said simply because it was a common theme in ADD descriptions that fit into his model. I really do wonder if he has a more scientific justification behind his words.

What probably excited me about the article was that it served my purposes: explain exactly how I see ADD, and be simple and friendly about it. Also, it puts it in enough order to really help me address my own issues.

Unfortunately, this happens a lot; I make a reply that supports something too intensely, and it takes someone else's response to realize I need to go back and explain the other side of the situation too.

Unfortunately, this happens a lot; I make a reply that supports something too intensely, and it takes someone else's response to realize I need to go back and explain the other side of the situation too.
Just for the record, I feel just as strongly about this article as you did.

And on the flip side of the coin, I found the Dr. to be rather unscientific. He would jump to conclusions with little basis in fact. It's all about perspective I guess.
Dr. Blum has been a practicing psychologist since 1986; received his PhD from Saybrook Institute, which was founded by, among others, Abraham Maslow - you know, the Maslow of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs; and has ADD himself. That gives him 20 years of professional practice and if I remember correctly, about 2-4 years of clinical internship. (I was going to be a shrink once upon a time...sigh...now it's way too late, so I'm doing the BA/MBA thing. hate business, but I'm majoring in HR Management. Hopefully, there I can do some good. Besides, with globalization inevitable, Business is the place to be to effect any changes.)

Anyway, as he was writing to people with ADD not to academicians or peers of his field, it is possible that he may have put his hypothesis in lay terms without providing supporting references - of course, this is all speculation on my part as I have not seen any white or thesis papers by him on the subject. Do you think it may be possible that he drew his conclusions based on experiential evidence?

I would like to know which parts you disagreed with.

Cat

Ya know, come to think of it (not that I haven't already noticed this a dozen times before), the big picture of it is that I tend to sway back and forth and back and forth in order to come to my final conclusion :D *visualizes sin(x)/1.1^x*. I do it because my first order of business in most any discussion is to sympathize with others' point of view, and I tend to do it intensely. So right now, I agree with you completely TheCat, although tentatively. After all, I haven't thoroughly read over the whole thing, and you did say you haven't exactly seen his research.

So right now, I agree with you completely TheCat, although tentatively. After all, I haven't thoroughly read over the whole thing, and you did say you haven't exactly seen his research.
Tentatively is cool. Isn't that the whole point of having a discussion? Exchanging ideas. Wouldn't want you to agree with me without reservation. After all, you don't really even know who I am...:)

What I liked most about the article was its positive outlook. Rather than trying to "fix" me, he gives me the bright side of what I have been coping with all my life. Additionally, he gave me the basis for a research interest of my own.

My hypothesis is that individuals with ADD/ADHD are exactly what the 21st century organizations need. Because of the divergent thought patterns, they would be most excellent at creative problem solving with the caveat to pair them up with nonADD/ADHD work partners so that someone could assist with the follow through. Moreover, I am of the opinion, that individuals with ADD/ADHD are the most receptive to change as it breaks up monotony. Where most people - the other 95% - tend to resist change, we welcome it. As the only constant in this century is change, it makes sense to me to utilize people that welcome it to be pathfinders for the others.

I have to put this research on hold for now. Want to finish my MBA first...the letters after my name will provide a modicum of validation :) I was thinking to switch majors for my PhD to Industrial and Organizational Psychology. But I have a year before I start thinking seriously about that. I won't have my MBA until March 2007.

Sorry for the tangent...:o :D

Anyway, back to what I was saying...I take no offense at disagreement. I like to have people poke holes into my theories and opinions. It makes me work to support them or adjust them as appropriate. :)

Cat

Oh it all sounds good and seems to be well intentioned but even the first paragraph just doesn't sound right. Credentials are nice to have but are not a guarantee that what is written is the truth. It's like a cottage industry for those with an axe to grind, Messianic tendencies, or those looking to make a quick buck. Show me a body of Science on an issue, when it comes to ADHD.

If you include all the versions of ADD ("Attention Deficit Disorder"), the category includes about one out of every twenty people, or 5 percent of the population. This is interesting, because unhealthy variations are almost always less than 2 percent of the population.

When there are so many people in a minority, it has a purpose. Consider sickle-cell anemia, a curvature of red blood cells and certainly a serious challenge to afflicted Africans, again over five percent. So, why so many? It is better to be tired and anemic than to get malaria, especially in the days before modern medications. Since sickle-celled people do not get malaria, the affliction had a purpose.

I talked to a Dr. about this issue in the past. She too mentioned a steady 2% rate for serious mental illnesses over the ages. I’m wondering if this is what the Dr. Blum is referring to. This section should be flushed out more and explained. For instance, are there any "bad" genetic traits at over 2%, which occur in the population and have no benefit to the individual? I sincerely think so. I'm no expert in genetics but lets look at a couple of possibilities; depression, the gene that allows for a susceptibility to alcoholism, anxiety, low intelligence, and I'm sure many more.

Everything else written in that piece is based on this first assumption and if he is wrong there, the whole article is of doubtful value.

Oh it all sounds good and seems to be well intentioned but even the first paragraph just doesn't sound right. Credentials are nice to have but are not a guarantee that what is written is the truth. The ADHD field is full of bogus information from Drs.Good point. And definitely one I cannot argue.

I talked to a Dr. about this issue in the past. She too mentioned a steady 2% rate for serious mental illnesses over the ages. I’m wondering if this is what the Dr. Blum is referring to. This section should be flushed out more and explained. For instance, are there any "bad" genetic traits at over 2%, which occur in the population and have no benefit to the individual? I sincerely think so. I'm no expert in genetics but lets look at a couple of possibilities; depression, the gene that allows for a susceptibility to alcoholism, anxiety, low intelligence, and I'm sure many more.Another valid point and I agree, with the qualification that I am not certain that all depression and anxiety difficulties are genetic. There is a lot of societal conditioning involved in how we look at ourselves and compare ourselves to others. In this sense, social and cultural groups and their expectations may be at the root of at least some depression and anxiety.

Consider that as a social animal, our need to belong outweighs our need for individualism. Anyone that is different from the social or cultural environment is either isolated or assimilated. If we were to be assimilated into a group that may go against our basic nature, could this not cause internal conflict that might manifest in depression or anxiety?

Everything else written in that piece is based on this first assumption and if he is wrong there, the whole article is of doubtful value.Once again, a very valid point. I'm tempted to e-mail him and ask him where he obtained his statistics. I did know that people with sickle cell anemia do not get malaria simply because I studied parisitology and animal vectors of human diseases - but that was ages ago and as I said, nothing remains constant. So I cannot say for certain that this still holds true. Besides, I never looked into what the population percentage was.

As an aside, when I took the Meyers-Briggs Jungian typology test, I ended up in a category that is allegedly only 3% of the population - ENFP (Keirsey Champion Idealist (http://keirsey.com/personality/nfep.html)). I wonder if that makes it an "unhealthy" variety...:D

Anyway, I'll have to get back to you on the statistics. I'll either e-mail Blum or research it for myself. There's always the APA to write to as well.

Thank you!! I love thought-provoking discussions. And please, continue to poke holes...how else will I know if something holds water or not!!!

TC

I talked to a Dr. about this issue in the past. She too mentioned a steady 2% rate for serious mental illnesses over the ages. I’m wondering if this is what the Dr. Blum is referring to. This section should be flushed out more and explained. For instance, are there any "bad" genetic traits at over 2%, which occur in the population and have no benefit to the individual? I sincerely think so. I'm no expert in genetics but lets look at a couple of possibilities; depression, the gene that allows for a susceptibility to alcoholism, anxiety, low intelligence, and I'm sure many more.

Everything else written in that piece is based on this first assumption and if he is wrong there, the whole article is of doubtful value.

Indeed... perhaps a lot of them have benefits too :D. Ya know, it should be considered that the genes that create susceptibility to depression, alcoholism, and anxiety could, for all we know, have upsides. I think the animal kingdom is full of creatures with myseterious disadvantages that somehow turn out to be beneficial. As for low intelligence, is there really a gene for that? Low intelligence in itself is much better seen as a symptom of other things anyways, and probably at least half a matter of failing to nurture the person's strengths.

Considering the fact that you heard about that steady 2% rate in mental illnesses, I find your post just as much encouraging as discouraging. :cool: (But please, do continue to argue your point.)

As an aside, when I took the Meyers-Briggs Jungian typology test, I ended up in a category that is allegedly only 3% of the population - ENFP (Keirsey Champion Idealist). I wonder if that makes it an "unhealthy" variety... :D Actually, it's hard to see that as much of a point, as the average category is only 6.25% of the population (16 categories, 1∕16=.0625).

Actually, it's hard to see that as much of a point, as the average category is only 6.25% of the population (16 categories, 1∕16=.0625).
Oh sure. Rain on my parade. Here I was feeling all kinds of special...:p

That was really just a touch of my warped humor tossed in there. I really do need to tag that stuff somehow. Even in person, it's hard to tell when I'm being serious or not until you get used to me. I usually have to apologize a lot when people are first getting to know me. :o

There really was no relevant point, just the 3% thing and that it was closer to 2% than 5%. Ergo, based on the assumption that 5% = purpose and 2% = unhealthy, would I be considered unhealthy in the 3% category.

*SIGH* It loses something in translation.

BTW - when I get to my Global Financial Managment class could you be so kind as to help me? And where were you when I was doing Statistics, huh?!

...As for low intelligence, is there really a gene for that?...

Well, is there really a single gene for ADHD? No, there most likely are several genes, as I imagine there are several for intelligence.

Three deviations from the norm on an IQ test is highly significant, and yet, at the same time this population is above the 2% threshold. So, according to Dr. Blum, being stupid must have some advantage for these people.

Ahh, but your saying to yourself, it's not as simple as that. There are many variables and other things to consider.

Exactly! When you consider what is already known about ADHD, Dr. Blum's theory on ADHD is far to simplistic

“ADHD prevalence is much higher when academic and behavioral functioning impairment criteria are not considered (16.1 percent without impairment criteria versus 6.8 percent with).”

Reference: Diagnosis of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder. Summary, Technical Review: Number 3, August 1999. Agency for Health Care Policy and Research, Rockville, MD. http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/adhdsutr.htm (http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/adhdsutr.htm)


It should be noted that these statistics refer to the prevalence in children and I did not see if they had included adults that have also been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. If they did not, they I would venture to say that the total percentage may be higher. Additionally, I am not certain if these statistics include all the subtypes such as the children that are not considered hyperactive.

I would like to find more current statistics if I can. It’s still a work in progress. :)

Not a lot of time to post, but I'll try to answer at least the questions directed to me.

First, although not directed to me, I think "Dr. Rick" should have his license to practice psychology revoked.

For someone who calls himself a psychologist, he's quite obviously lacking any knowledge of the scientific literature on the disorders he is licensed to treat. I am flabbergasted that a psychologist with ADD would know so little.

ADD isn't "divergent thinking"!!!

ADD is perfectly good neurons that don't get the signals meant for them because the mechanism (dopamine) gets cleaned up too quickly! It's as if the mailman can't deliver all of the mail because there are over-turned trees randomly blocking various streets.

As for Rick's credentials, take a look at my signature. I don't care if you have a Nobel prize. Bad science is bad science.

Perhaps my opinion on this will be a little more clear with an explanation of the neural process that (according to a lot of converging evidence) appears to be the proximal cause of the impairments we experience.


******

I'm assuming you know nothing about neural processes, so please don't be offended by the simplicity.

Neurons communicate using substances called neurotransmitters that travel across a small space (synapse) between the neurons. In the prefrontal cortex, the neurotransmitter that is mostly responsible for the vigilance system of attention (the one impaired in ADD) is dopamine.

There is a substance known as "dopamine transporter" that helps dopamine move from one place to another in the synapse.

ADDers have more pathways for these transporters than non-ADDers.

When a non-ADDer focuses, this part of the brain speeds up its metabolism, which is inferred to be cognitive activity.

When an ADDer focuses, more dopamine is released (just as in non-ADDers), but transporter activity increases, too. Since we have too much transporter activity, the dopamine can't stay in the synapse long enough to connect to the receiving neuron. As a result, the prefrontal cortex slows down. The harder we try, the more it slows.

This is a functional deficit because the structures in place are normal, at least early in the course of the disorder (many years of suffering can result in structural differences). This is also true for mood disorders like depression and bipolar disorder as well as schizophrenia, OCD, and most of the other common disorders.

It's a lot like having a thyroid condition. The thyroid is there, but it's not functioning normally. Medication works because it restores the function through various means (depends on the med).

****

With personality disorders, the problems are structural. The brain actually develops a little differently than it should. The behavior that results is maladaptive, which is what makes it a disorder.

Personality disorders are not considered untreatable, but they are HIGHLY resistent to all currently-known treatments for psychological disorders. They don't respond to medication, psychotherapy, cognitive-behavioral therapy, etc. That doesn't mean a psychologist will simply give up.

When people classify ADD as simply a "different way of thinking", they are not only denying a mountain of evidence, they are placing ADD in a category it simply doesn't belong and doing all ADDers a disservice.



Here's an analogy:

The normally-functioning brain -- You live on an island in the middle of a large, deep lake. To get through life, you visit various points on the shore to collect supplies and such. There are 4 bridges connecting your island in 4 different directions to the shore.

The ADD brain -- 3 of the 4 bridges are draw bridges, and you do not have control of them. Instead, there's an evil troll that puts them up at random intervals so that you can't get across. This often, but not always, limits your access to important supplies. BUT, the bridges are all there and all have the same connections that occur in the "normal" scenario.

The Personality Disordered brain -- No evil troll & the bridges are not drawbridges. However, 2 of the bridges connect to the north side of the lake, one to the southwest, and the other to the south. If you want to visit the grocery store on the east side, it's a very long trip, so you tend to do all your shopping at the convenience store on the north side. This, unfortunately limits your supplies to the same brands and a narrow variety of products. You can't ever make rice pudding because this store doesn't carry raisins.

I hope my strange example makes sense.

*****

Regarding the root cause of personality disorders, the best hypothesis to date is that some people suffer prolonged periods of stress at a crucial time in very early childhood, which results in a brain development that is slightly different than it would be if the person did not experience this.

Since we are ALL products of this process, it's basically "who they are". The reason it's called a disorder is because it is maladaptive. IMO, a PD dx should never be given unless and until a number of treatment approaches fail.

Sorry for the length of the post....

not alot of time to post!?! :eek:

I think what we need now are some statistics on ADD advantages. Fortunately, there are a few positive hints I can grab from the Is creativity enhanced by ADHD? (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27389) thread.
From Geckogirl's post:

We compared adults with and without ADHD on the Unusual Uses Task (divergent thinking) and the Remote Associates Test (convergent thinking), and a measure of executive inhibitory control, semantic inhibition of return. ADHD individuals outperformed non-ADHD individuals on the Unusual Uses Task, but performed worse than non-ADHD on the Remote Associates Test and the semantic IOR task. The relationship between ADHD and creative ability was mediated, in part, by differences in inhibition.
...
Compared to normal students, [ADHD] children were poorer in use of time but better in imagery-based creativity tasks in high-arousal conditions.
...
In spite of cultural differences, results duplicated the earlier findings of G. A. Shaw and G. Brown (see record 1990-25919-001), suggesting a stable pattern of characteristics associated with ADHD and high intelligence. These Ss had more mixed laterality and allergies; used more diverse, nonverbal, and poorly focused information; and showed higher figural creativity than did high-IQ Ss without attention problems.
I admit I don't understand every one of the intricate details they're describing in these complicated scientific studies, but the fact that they have a few positive words for us is very encouraging.


ADD isn't "divergent thinking"! Well there's a lot of support for the idea that it's a lack of inhibition, and that's how I see it.

Ahh, but your saying to yourself, it's not as simple as that. There are many variables and other things to consider.

Exactly! When you consider what is already known about ADHD, Dr. Blum's theory on ADHD is far to simplistic Very well said, Scuro. I just keep hoping he holds a far more scientific explanation somewhere. This is clearly only written well enough for persuading casual readers, and teaching them the essential information.

Here I was feeling all kinds of special...:p

That was really just a touch of my warped humor tossed in there. I really do need to tag that stuff somehow.Ah, yeah. I noticed it was kinda silly like that, and should've assumed as much (the :D tagged it well enough). I guess I'd been worried too much about people who could overestimate the size of a category (and others who'd be annoyed at this), and ended up just making sure to clarify the statistic.

not alot of time to post!?! :eek:Heck, there are volumes of books on the topic & entire courses on just neurotransmitters! I could have written a lot more..... :p

This is a functional deficit because the structures in place are normal, at least early in the course of the disorder (many years of suffering can result in structural differences). This is also true for mood disorders like depression and bipolar disorder as well as schizophrenia, OCD, and most of the other common disorders.

It's a lot like having a thyroid condition. The thyroid is there, but it's not functioning normally. Medication works because it restores the function through various means (depends on the med).

****

With personality disorders, the problems are structural. The brain actually develops a little differently than it should. The behavior that results is maladaptive, which is what makes it a disorder.
But this is the part I'm having trouble with.

As far as I know, structural differences in ADD brains are still being researched, so I don't know that it would make sense to rule them out at this point. I don't really understand the stuff I've seen on Google, but I've heard about possible/confirmed(?) differences in grey vs. white matter, the size of the right hemisphere, size/symmetry of various structures, etc. You're saying that if these exist, then they ALL are the result of having ADHD for years? Hmm.

(And the dopamine transporters aren't a structural difference? Why not?)

Regarding the root cause of personality disorders, the best hypothesis to date is that some people suffer prolonged periods of stress at a crucial time in very early childhood, which results in a brain development that is slightly different than it would be if the person did not experience this.
Yeah, that's the theory as far as I know. But if ADHD results in stuctural differences, the difference here is even murkier, to my mind. Because that's...brain development that's different than what it would otherwise be.

Personality disorders are not considered untreatable, but they are HIGHLY resistent to all currently-known treatments for psychological disorders. They don't respond to medication, psychotherapy, cognitive-behavioral therapy, etc. That doesn't mean a psychologist will simply give up.
Well, a good one shouldn't.

My ex did better with EMDR, he says. I've also heard that SSRIs often can help (which I've witnessed), although not as well as they do for things like depression. And then there's DBT, which is supposed to work quite well, but I couldn't speak to that. *shrug*

IMO, a PD dx should never be given unless and until a number of treatment approaches fail.
You could just as easily say that nothing worked because the therapy wasn't attacking the root problem in the first place.

I'd say the diagnosis should be given when it meets the criteria. That's what the criteria is there for.

As far as I know, structural differences in ADD brains are still being researched, so I don't know that it would make sense to rule them out at this point. I don't really understand the stuff I've seen on Google, but I've heard about possible/confirmed(?) differences in grey vs. white matter, the size of the right hemisphere, size/symmetry of various structures, etc. You're saying that if these exist, then they ALL are the result of having ADHD for years? Hmm. Of course it's still being researched, but there is strong preliminary evidence, IMO, to hypothesize that the relatively small differences in size of certain brain structurs as well as the relatively small differences in grey to white ratio that are apparent in ADHD brains are a result of ADHD, not a cause.

For example, some studies have seen no differences in ADHD children treated with Ritalin compared to normals on these things.



(And the dopamine transporters aren't a structural difference? Why not?)
Well, if my bridges example doesn't demonstrate what I'm referring to when I say "functional vs. structural", the only other kind of analogy that I can think of is a series of tunnels. A network of tunnels that forms normally connects points A, B, C, D, E, & F in a particular pattern. The PD brain's tunnels connect either in a different pattern or they miss some points. The ADHDer's brain has a normal tunnel structure, but some of the tunnels are blocked at random intervals for random durations of time.



Yeah, that's the theory as far as I know. But if ADHD results in stuctural differences, the difference here is even murkier, to my mind. Because that's...brain development that's different than what it would otherwise be.
So far, we've only seen slight reductions in the size of some structures in ADHD. We don't even know if those reductions represent stunted development or a more efficient structure (which could have developed in order to compensate for the dopamine deficiency).

In PDs, the structural differences are more pronounced and less predictable.

ADHD doesn't appear to alter brain development in the first few years of life. In fact, it doesn't appear to occur in the first few years, with some exceptions, probably because the impaired system (vigilence - sustained attention) is not challenged until middle childhood.

What's most likely happening is that the impairment results in behavior, which results in feedback from the environment, which leads to changes in the brain.

PD's are most likely a result of the brain structure that developed in the first 2-3 years of life. The development of this structure is heavily influenced by the envinronment.


I've also heard that SSRIs often can help (which I've witnessed), although not as well as they do for things like depression.
My best guess would be that any improvements in symptoms due to medication were one of two things:

1 -- Just because one has a PD, doesn't mean they can't also have other problems. Analogy: If you have a viral infection, antibiotics won't help you. But, having the flu creates symptoms like congestion that encourage bacterial infections to develop. If you take antibiotics for these secondary infections, your symptoms will improve and it will appear as though the antibiotics treated the viral infection.

2 -- Misdiagnosis. The PD wasn't a PD.



I'd say the diagnosis should be given when it meets the criteria. That's what the criteria is there for.I completely agree.

One of the mandatory criterias for ALL personality disorders is that the symptoms are not attributable to another disorder.

Hmm! Well then, I guess I'll leave aside the whole idea of ADD brains as structurally different for the time being. Honestly, I still don't think I quite get the dopamine transporter thing (I mean, I figured having more of them was a structural difference), but maybe I can look that up on my own.

This was funny, though:

For example, some studies have seen no differences in ADHD children treated with Ritalin compared to normals on these things....Just because the rabid anti-Ritalin people out there like to claim differences in ADD brains as the RESULT of Ritalin! :D

My best guess would be that any improvements in symptoms due to medication were one of two things:

1 -- Just because one has a PD, doesn't mean they can't also have other problems. Analogy: If you have a viral infection, antibiotics won't help you. But, having the flu creates symptoms like congestion that encourage bacterial infections to develop. If you take antibiotics for these secondary infections, your symptoms will improve and it will appear as though the antibiotics treated the viral infection.

2 -- Misdiagnosis. The PD wasn't a PD.This is true, other issues can be helped by the meds. And Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder#Treatment) suggests "pure" BPD people (as opposed to ones with no other issues) are less likely to be helped by meds. BUT paranoid ideation that was a huge issue with my ex seemed to be helped by SSRIs. (And the difference was really noticable.) Other than BPD, the only disorders which seem to feature paranoia like his would be paranoid schizophrenia, and "paranoid personality disorder." (Didn't know that one existed.)

One of the mandatory criterias for ALL personality disorders is that the symptoms are not attributable to another disorder.All disorders, period. Right?

One problem there is that...there is major overlap in symptoms. Does it make more sense to dx the one that fits, or the laundry list that just might cover everything if you strain? :rolleyes:

Because...I understand making a differential diagnosis. But at a certain point, it can get silly, and even harmful and a waste of time to be reaching for, "everything but."


Edit: Wow, you signed off at 1,999 posts! You only had one more to hit two thousand! :D

Honestly, I still don't think I quite get the dopamine transporter thing (I mean, I figured having more of them was a structural difference), but maybe I can look that up on my own.No, you don't need to look it up. You could argue that, certainly.

I guess I could be more specific by saying that it's likely that PDs neural networks are different, but the neurotransmitter activity is normal, whereas ADHD involves abnormal neurotransmitter activity of normally-structured neural networks.




...Just because the rabid anti-Ritalin people out there like to claim differences in ADD brains as the RESULT of Ritalin! :DI KNOW! :D;) The funny thing is, they are probably RIGHT! Just not in the way they think. There is some preliminary evidence that Ritalin can even CORRECT those differences!

Other than BPD, the only disorders which seem to feature paranoia like his would be paranoid schizophrenia, and "paranoid personality disorder." (Didn't know that one existed.)Yeah, some people are just suspicious of everybody. They are often somewhat narciccistic, too.

Paranoia can actually be a symptom of many other disorders, it's just not characteristic of them (other than schizophrenia). It's fairly common with anxiety of any kind. Prozac made me more than a bit paranoid before I was correctly diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and put on a stabilizer.


All disorders, period. Right?
Not exactly. The DSM specifies certain disorders this way. Antisocial personality disorder, for example, has a caveat that the behavior not be attributable to ANY other disorder (personality or otherwise). I imagine the decision-makers believe it's just too stigmatizing to apply certain labels when there's any possibility that another less-stigmatizing label will do.

Most diagnoses in the DSM are more flexible. The criteria sometimes include that no other disorder is more likely, but many do not.


Because...I understand making a differential diagnosis. But at a certain point, it can get silly, and even harmful and a waste of time to be reaching for, "everything but."Well, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I agree in diagnosing whenever possible.

BUT, I think that the diagnosis of a personality disorder should be reserved for a last resort. It's kind of like trying to solve a puzzle. A dx would be a tentative solution. If treatment doesn't work, that solution needs to be reconsidered.

I think PD should only be dx when there is not other possibility. Just my opinion.


Edit: Wow, you signed off at 1,999 posts! You only had one more to hit two thousand! :DDone!

My basic perspective on this is very simple and unassuming:
People are born with different inclinations.
They face different struggles and develop differently.
Society benefits from this variety.
So, ADHDers should seek however much treatment they need to function effectively, but try to handle things on their own when it's a reasonably available option. Taking on a challenge always pays off.

I don't know whether I'm arguing against anything said here. I'm just trying to make a relevant point.

…I don't care if you have a Nobel prize. Bad science is bad science.Based on your statement, I’m not certain if your signature is approving or disapproving of the Carl Sagan quote.

Regardless, on one hand, I have to agree with the Nobel Prize thing. Milton Friedman, the economist, being an illustrative example. (I absolutely disagree with the man on a very fundamental level.) On the other hand, isn’t this essentially what they said to Copernicus when he said that the Earth was not the center of the Universe? They were so outraged by his scientific opinion that had he not died, he most likely would have been imprisoned.

…the neural process that (according to a lot of converging evidence) appears to be the proximal cause of the impairments we experience…“Nobody knows the exact cause of ADHD.” National Institute of Mental Health, 2-Feb-2006

Ergo, as there are as many theories as there are researchers, I choose to accept a theory that is positive in nature. Moreover, while some may find intuitive decisions offensive or incomprehensible, therefore irrational, I am an intuitive personality and this one feels right – for me. I would by no means tell anyone else which theory to accept. We all have to travel the path that is right for us as individuals.

I have e-mailed Dr. Blum asking him to direct me toward information that could validate his theory. We’ll see if he answers. Meanwhile, I shall continue to research as objectively as I can.

…The reason it's called a disorder is because it is maladaptive…Right. And I am maladaptive because I do not fit into any of the pigeonholes dictated by social norms. However, this country was founded by maladaptive people that refused to accept the then current social norms.

It is not particularly easy standing against social norms, but there are so many with which I disagree that it makes it worthwhile for me. I AM different and I revel in that difference. I would rather not belong, than belong to a society whose norms go against my basic principles. Besides, I find pigeonholes quite confining.

I refuse to apologize for being bored to tears by sports (even though most of those around me are mesmerized by them) or a droning speaker that talks a lot but does not say much. I refuse to apologize for being able to grasp a concept quickly while others must have it explained over an over – with the exception of mathematics and even that I manage to grasp on my own. I refuse to apologize for being able to think for myself without succumbing to group think or not allowing society to think for me or dictate how and what I should think.

If this makes me maladaptive, then so be it. I, for one, do not wish to be “fixed.”

I will apologize for not being in the mood to delve into an extended discourse on societal conditioning that is based on outdated ideology. Just don’t feel like it right now – probably because I did a paper on it for my Sociology class not too long ago. Although I would like to reiterate that sociology labels innovators as deviants. Does this make it a "bad thing?"

I guess I'd been worried too much about people who could overestimate the size of a category (and others who'd be annoyed at this), and ended up just making sure to clarify the statistic.
Thank you. Goodness knows, I am bound to annoy enough people as it is. :rolleyes:

“Nobody knows the exact cause of ADHD.” National Institute of Mental Health, 2-Feb-2006

Ergo, as there are as many theories as there are researchers, I choose to accept a theory that is positive in nature. Moreover, while some may find intuitive decisions offensive or incomprehensible, therefore irrational, I am an intuitive personality and this one feels right – for me. I would by no means tell anyone else which theory to accept. We all have to travel the path that is right for us as individuals.
No one knows the exact cause of many things. I believe that gravity would fall into that catagory. But it would be kinda of funny if we all started picking our own theories on gravity based on mood in a particular moment in time. We have Scientists because they attempt to offer us truth. There is a whack load of research on this topic and while there are many questions still not answered, we can safely state general ideas about the disorder.


Ergo, as there are as many theories as there are researchers, I choose to accept a theory that is positive in nature. Moreover, while some may find intuitive decisions offensive or incomprehensible, therefore irrational, I am an intuitive personality and this one feels right – for me. I would by no means tell anyone else which theory to accept. We all have to travel the path that is right for us as individuals.

I have e-mailed Dr. Blum asking him to direct me toward information that could validate his theory. We’ll see if he answers. Meanwhile, I shall continue to research as objectively as I can.
There is irony here in these statements and I mean that in a respectful way. It's great to want to keep a positive frame of mind but it gets a bit extreme when you start weeding out theories to believe, that have negative outcomes.

The whole field is all muddied up with misinformation. Good luck with your research.

I got your point Barb, the first time around, and I thought you mentioned good points in it.

Nova

It is not appropriate to second guess myself, BUT...

I know I would have done much better in college if I had been treated for ADHD.
Certainly I would have done a lot better in elementry school and later in high school if appropriate treatment had been available.
But that was the 60's and 70's and all that would have happend back then would have been a diagnosis of "minimal brain damage". I would have ended up a victim of the medical establishment.

ME :D



That was a 'million' years ago, Speedo !!!!!!

You're brilliant, and the last thing you have is a 'minimal brain anything' :D

Drop that boring routine already before I shoot spitballs at you !!!


Nova

Hahaha Chloe,

You've been in a 'change my avatar several times in the past week' mode like me, lately. I love your newest one best !!

If caught earlier, most of you would have been more successful.

Admitting that one is disabled and taking steps to limit the disability can actually make the tables turn. Those of you who hold yourselves up as more creative or intuitive or intelligent as the average non-ADDer have tapped into that ability to overcompensate, at least in some specific domain.I don't know what there is to 'catch'...but I don't view having ADHD is a disease..I'm not being a smart alec, here, either.

I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 7, so I'm well aware that I've had it my entire life, and I'm not disillusioning myself by posting *positive* articles on here about it.

My GPA, was above average thoughout high school and college, but that didn't mean I didn't struggle with other factors in learning.

My variable emotional levels, and attention span, however, vastly fluctute, on a regular basis.

In my opinion, I believe that that someone choosing to be deterred, in doing *something* is based upon their own personal reasons, which only they truly understand 'why'.

Peace,

Nova

Ahhh..but if I said I found him to be unscientific..you might say 'On the flip side I found him to be scientific.'..see how that works... (0;

Just joshin' with you.

It's always good to see to see both sides though.


Nova

No, you don't need to look it up. You could argue that, certainly.

I guess I could be more specific by saying that it's likely that PDs neural networks are different, but the neurotransmitter activity is normal, whereas ADHD involves abnormal neurotransmitter activity of normally-structured neural networks.
AH! Got it. :D

Paranoia can actually be a symptom of many other disorders, it's just not characteristic of them (other than schizophrenia). It's fairly common with anxiety of any kind.
But what sort of paranoia are we talking about here? Because, "I bet those people over there are laughing at me!" is a different sort of thing from, "THOSE PEOPLE THINK I'M AN EVIL MONSTER AND ARE PLOTTING AGAINST ME!!" And I was more talking about the second type, which I didn't think was characteristic of more than a couple of disorders. But correct me if I'm wrong. ;)

Not exactly. The DSM specifies certain disorders this way. Antisocial personality disorder, for example, has a caveat that the behavior not be attributable to ANY other disorder (personality or otherwise).
Huh. Okay, I can understand that for antisocial personality disorder, I think. That label really says something. But then, I can't think of anything that could fit it's symptoms/traits better than antisocial personality disorder itself. I mean, the diagnosis REQUIRES people to have broken the law, to begin with. I guess you could argue another personality disorder - narcissistic, maybe? - but I'd think the clinical presentation would be totally different.

But like I said, I think you could diagnose several different things instead of BPD, even if they don't fit better. BPD is a bit more ambiguous that way. So I don't think it should have that stipulation. However...

BUT, I think that the diagnosis of a personality disorder should be reserved for a last resort. It's kind of like trying to solve a puzzle. A dx would be a tentative solution. If treatment doesn't work, that solution needs to be reconsidered.

I think PD should only be dx when there is not other possibility. Just my opinion.
Possibly part of the reason we are disagreeing is that we are imagining things differently when discussing "last resort." I can understand and agree that trying to treat depression and so on before considering BPD makes sense. Because the only cases where I've seen any validity to the charge that BPD is a "trashbasket" diagnosis is when I've heard personal stories from [only!] women who somehow ended up getting bounced around between mental health professionals over some undetermined problem, while gathering a wild c*cktail of diagnoses from people they'd only seen once.

But then, my ex was in therapy (with any number of people) for a decade. The person who finally considered BPD was me (with no qualms, since I didn't know I was supposed to consider it a last resort! :p ).

It blew my mind that I stumbled across something that perfectly explained his symptoms (similar to when I read descriptions of ADD, and it was like someone had SPIED on me) on a random, casual GOOGLE SEARCH, but none of the professionals he was seeing for ten years ever figured it out. I don't know if they were all total dweebs or WHAT, but maybe BPD shouldn't be so taboo. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, isn’t this essentially what they said to Copernicus when he said that the Earth was not the center of the Universe?

What? "That's bad science"? Or "There are no authorities"? Since the church considered the Bible and God ultimate authorities, the second makes no sense. And the first really doesn't either, since Copernicus's theory was basically the start of skepticism.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Ergo, as there are as many theories as there are researchers, I choose to accept a theory that is positive in nature.

I think it is virtually impossible for us NOT to have an opinion on something that is so close to us. However, so far as the word "accept" goes, it suggests that you have decided to believe Theory X against all other evidence. Personally, I have my own theories about ADD, about various other parts of my identity that are still being researched by science, but I also have to accept that I may be wrong, and that strong or even conclusive evidence may arise that will prove me so.

Which parts of the rest of your post indicate you understand, too; this particular part just sounded odd. :eyebrow:

Right. And I am maladaptive because I do not fit into any of the pigeonholes dictated by social norms. However, this country was founded by maladaptive people that refused to accept the then current social norms.

It is not particularly easy standing against social norms, but there are so many with which I disagree that it makes it worthwhile for me. I AM different and I revel in that difference. I would rather not belong, than belong to a society whose norms go against my basic principles. Besides, I find pigeonholes quite confining.

*squints* I think Barb was referring to personality disorders when she said that? I'm unclear now, and I don't have a lot of time to check.

But ADHD is frankly not just about not fitting social norms. It's existed regardless of social norms, and while it's impossible to diagnose the dead, strong suggestion of the symptoms can be seen in people through history.

(I didn't mean Einstein, though. I don't think he was, personally. Although according to various sites out there, he was ADHD, autistic, had tics, had learning disablilites, and any number of other issues. Poor guy! :p )

Social norms have changed. ADHD apparently hasn't.

I refuse to apologize for {stuff deleted}.

Honestly, I don't think anyone is asking you to; at least, not at the moment.

But if ADHD was just thinking differently, being innovators, we would not have the issues that we do. It's not JUST that!

Haven't you ever had the experience of having some amazing revelation - some brilliant insight on world events, or some complex physics problem, or even just a complex PERSONAL problem - and then a few minutes later, totally forgetting it because you couldn't hold it in memory?! If we were just innovators, large numbers of us would not mourn the fact that our best ideas are in more danger in OUR heads than they would be in someone else's!

Personally, I'm bored by sports, too. I would prefer to, say, read critical race theory. But I very often can't even do THAT. I really want to, but I can't "stay" with the page. That's not because there's something wrong with the book, or because it doesn't personally interest me, or because I have better things to do. It's because I have a brain-based disorder of working memory and focus regulation.

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What? "That's bad science"? Or "There are no authorities"? Since the church considered the Bible and God ultimate authorities, the second makes no sense. And the first really doesn't either, since Copernicus's theory was basically the start of skepticism.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm not sure what you mean by that.



I think it is virtually impossible for us NOT to have an opinion on something that is so close to us. However, so far as the word "accept" goes, it suggests that you have decided to believe Theory X against all other evidence. Personally, I have my own theories about ADD, about various other parts of my identity that are still being researched by science, but I also have to accept that I may be wrong, and that strong or even conclusive evidence may arise that will prove me so.

Which parts of the rest of your post indicate you understand, too; this particular part just sounded odd. :eyebrow:



*squints* I think Barb was referring to personality disorders when she said that? I'm unclear now, and I don't have a lot of time to check.

But ADHD is frankly not just about not fitting social norms. It's existed reg