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latesha

09-01-04, 07:22 PM

This is not an easy thing for me to write, and I doubt that it ever will be. Hopefully what you read today, will help you in some way shape and form, and give you some insight into the heart and mind of the abused.

All of the Newsletters and Medical Journals that I have spent hours pouring over, researching, reading and rereading have been full of medical terminology, monstrous words and even more monstrous definitions. I can’t understand them, I have to look up the meanings of definitions, and I thought that definitions were supposed to be defining! Hopefully you are not expecting to find big flowery words and definitions here. I could break out the dictionary, thesaurus, book of quotes, and even the medical journals that are stacked on my bookshelves and I could make very good, very detailed points. However, I want to write to my readers. I don’t want my readers to have to search their bookcases and their minds. My goal here? To allow my story to be read, in the hopes that lives can and will be changed.

Before you read any further, decided right here and right now if this is something that you WANT to read, and are ready to read. I will warn you, my story is graphic, and painstakingly truthful. It is hard to comprehend how another human being could be treated so badly. So please, prepare yourself. This could be a trigger to some of the persons who have suffered abuse. I need to do this I need for this to be out of me and onto the pages set before me. If, at this time, you are unable to read my story, I truly understand and hope that one day, your demons are released and reading this can help.

In this edition of Surviving the Inconceivable, I want to share with you a piece of my story, and a piece of myself.

My first year in college, I met the most perfect man that a girl like me could have ever dreamed of. He was tall and trim, handsome and athletic, and most importantly, he showed true interest in ME! After a year, I married that perfectly wonderful man. He decided that he should join the military and that I should put my education on hold. I being young and naive agreed that this was the best solution. Well, being in the Military meant moving away from everything I had ever known and going to a place I had never been. But I was eager to become an independent woman and have a husband. So, I packed my bags and picked up my life and moved 1,200 miles away from everything and everyone. No one in my family liked him, in fact my father and 2 brothers both despised him. I however, loved him with every fiber of my being.

There I was in a big new city with a new husband. Little did I know I was literally walking into a war zone. It began with verbal abuse and a smack across the face. But, I was his wife I had made a commitment to him. I also couldn’t bear to allow my family to know that I had “failed” at marriage in a matter of weeks! The shame and humiliation was agonizing.

Then came the brutality. The savage beatings that occurred for no reason. The demand for perfection. The viciousness of his tone when he spoke to me. I knew that this was not how it was supposed to be. I knew that this was not a marriage, and I also knew that if I didn’t do something, I was going to be dead.

He would beat me for stupid things, he would beat me for saying something wrong or stepping out of line, or not having the house in perfect order when he would return home. Sometimes, he would beat me, just to be beating me. He enjoyed what he was doing it gave him power and control.

When the beatings started I would close my eyes and take it. I would lay there lifeless, trying not to even breathe. If he thought I was dead, maybe he would stop, was the thought racing through my mind. No, I never fought back, I never yelled mean and hateful things back at him, and I never once ever defied him. He was my husband and no matter how much he had hurt me, I had to stand by him. That was what had been etched in my head from day one of my marriage.

The day came when he announced that he would be going overseas for 6-9 months. I cried for him, our country was at war. But in my heart I knew that nothing could compare to the war that I had been facing. And secretly, I hoped and I prayed that he wouldn’t come back. I would pretend to play the ever so distraught and grieving widow of a service man, and no one would ever have to know my horrible shameful secrets.

The day that he left to go overseas he decided that it would be best if he were to give me something to remember him by. I don’t know how long the beating lasted. He was dressed in his uniform he told me that he was going to teach me a lesson in respect for authority, respect that should be shown to every man who wears a uniform. He threw me to the hard tile floor in the kitchen of our apartment. He started kicking me in the abdomen and chest. I tried to be very still but the pain of those boots in my ribcage was overpowering and sickening. I didn’t try to stand I didn’t try to sit up I didn’t even try to move. What I did do was try to die. That had been my breaking point. I vomited on his shoes and he screamed at me for messing up his uniform. He told me to get up and get the spare from the closet and press it for him. When I got to my knees and tried to stand up, his boot made contact with my forehead. I fell to the floor unconscious.

When I woke up, he was standing over with his hands around my neck and began to laugh an insane laugh. His eyes had turned from beautiful sea green, to a dark brown almost black color. He was screaming that I had not yet learned my lesson. He was straddling me so that I couldn’t get away, not that I would have even been able to try at that point. He began banging my head into the hard cold tile flooring. Before I drifted off into unconsciousness I managed to say to him, “Please stop, I love you.” The look of his face terrified me and I had to close my eyes to avoid his gaze. He stopped, walked over to the door, and left. I never saw him again outside of a courtroom.

I have a feeling that everyone who just finished reading that little tidbit of my history has a lot of questions. Let me guess some of them!

1. Why didn’t you just leave him
2. How could you put up with that
3. How does the story end

Am I close? Why didn’t I just leave him? First of all, let me start
By asking you when, and how? How could I put up with it? Let me ask you this. Did I have a choice? You are saying YES! As a matter of fact your brain is probably screaming YES YOU DID HAVE A CHOICE! You are right, to some degree, I did have a choice, but at the time I didn’t have any options to set that choice into action. How does the story end? Well, if I told you that, then you would have no reason to read my next column.

Once a person has been physically, mentally, sexually, financially, socially, and or emotionally abused things that have lain dormant for years can tend to surface. I was diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) at the age of 7 years old. I had never had any true problems with the ADHD until after the abuse. Now I have issues with everything under the sun. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, (PTSD) Acute Anxiety Disorder, just to name a few. The effects that these disorders have had on my life are profound to me and to those who know me. Do not think that my story had concluded. Obviously it hasn't or you wouldn't be reading my story today. Always know that if you are in trouble, if your being abused in any way, there is help available to you. In my next column I intend to share with everyone the dramatic turn around that my life has made. How I managed to survive the inconceivable and how I decided that my taking the first step was more than necessary.

T1Thoughts

11-22-04, 12:54 PM

I just dont know what to say......
So much pain.
Forgive and continue to shine your light.
Dont give up on people.
I feel your pain.

Nucking_Futs

11-22-04, 01:14 PM

1. Why didn’t you just leave him
2. How could you put up with that
3. How does the story end

I know the answer. And my thought's are with you on your long journey ahead. While others hear sadness in your words I hear hope and strength. What I hear is the battle cry of another sister screaming out not again, not one more time, never ever again!!! Go forth and find the happiness you deserve.

My story is a little different. My mother was abandoned by her father within the first 20 minutes of her life, he came and saw and walked away guess she wasn't what he was expecting. She spent the next 20 years of her life searching for her father in the wrong men and dragging her kids thru the **** hole that was her life.

They alway's start by breaking your spirit. Your stupid, ugly, clumsy, dimwitted, worthless (ahh yea that's my favorite), you can't survive without me. Then when they've got you good and brain washed they start with little jabs with their fingers into your rib cage to prove a point, slowly esculating to punches and kicks. I don't know how many times I've witnessed my mother get the daylights kicked out of her *shakes head sadly*.

We were to young and naive to know that we were only witnessing the beginning of our own future's. Dave that's what everyone called him except us kids we were too afraid to even say his name it was like an evil curse and punishable by death to even utter it. We'll carry the scars for the rest of our lives the ones on the outside those are easy...they heal, fade with time it's the one's on the inside that eat at your soul, the words, feelings of utter and complete inadequacy that live and grow forever in your heart.

I'm not in an abusive relationship because I wanted more I wanted hope and respect and dignity. What I got was Doug and he has more than enough strength, hope, respect and dignity for the both of us.

The first and hardest lesson I have ever had to learn in life is that I deserve to be happy and loved. Luckily, I'm a quick learner. :D

T1Thoughts

12-07-04, 05:45 PM

What if the tables were turned and the male punchingbag who not only has the same occurences but also deals with the stereotype that men are the stronger and would not put up with this kind of abuse if it were a diffrent person. What if he were taught not to hit women, but wasnt taught how to respond to the phisical hurt from one?
Now (He) has to deal with two seperate battles, the spouse and the ID.

T1Thoughts

12-08-04, 12:29 PM

Wow, no replies

T1Thoughts

12-08-04, 02:25 PM

from another angle;)

Pathologically jealous spouses don't truly love their partners because the former keep the latter in perpetual emotional prison where they are made to feel trapped, smothered, and always under siege just because they (the former)---due to pathological insecurity and co-dependency issues---feel a need to maintain control and to possess, dominate, and intimidate them, spy on them, occupy them to keep from losing them and keep them responsive to their emotional needs (Hindy, Schwartz, and Brodsky, 1987; Barker, 1987; White, 1981, and Brehm, 1985). They seem very stubborn and rigid and, in their over-protectiveness, tend to be (over)zealous about their spouse or significant other's adherence to rules; they often lack the ability to empathize or see things from the viewpoints of others, and they often have difficulty controlling their anger and can be violent and destructive (Barker, 1987). So, constantly on guard and living on a tight leash of self-restraint, the hapless partners in their position may feel that they are losing not only their independence, but their personal integrity as well (Hindy, et al., 1987). They become so weak-kneed in their phantom fear of their spouses' jealous wrath or their retaliating against them by abandoning or withdrawing company, affection, or sex, or being physically battered, etc. that they are unable to grow a spine and stand up to them or, in the case of husbands, show them who's the real boss in the marriage. Because they are so psychologically disordered, they require serious professional help for not only their marriage problems but also for their respective personal psychological issues. That the jealous spouses need therapy is obvious, but what is not so obvious is the fact that their partners need professional counseling, too, because they don't know how to put their feet down and set healthy boundaries in the marriage and they enable their jealous spouses' destructive behavior by misguidedly emotionally supporting them and giving in to their jealous demands out of "love" for them---even if they are unreasonable and/or unbiblical/unethical and even if their spouses actually are not legitimately offended---and misguidedly give up their absolute, God-given rights to reasonable personal freedom, privacy, and the pursuit of their own happiness---and those of others, e.g., imagined rivals of the jealous spouses---, i.e., living their own private and separate lives, in order to pacify them to maintain (false) peace and stability in the marriage.

crime_scene

12-08-04, 11:06 PM

I have heard of the odd case of a man being physically abused. It's just not as overwhelmingly freqent as the female abuse scenario.

I think pathologically jealous spouses don't love themselves, and are so terrifyingly dependent on their spouse that the mere thought of the possibility of them not being there is enough to freak them out. Unfortunately, I think they are also immature in the sense they have not learned how to deal with things by discussing issues honestly and openly and so result to basic domination and aggression to intimidate their partner into conforming to their wishes. It is possible that their dependence on the spouse exceeds their love, but I've never been in the position so I can't evaluate that concept.

timh

12-09-04, 12:18 PM

What is the definition of "pathologically jealous"? How do you differentiate between "rational jealousy" and "irrational jealousy"? Some say jealousy can be a healthy emotion. It means that you may really be in-tune and observant within your relationship. I just need a better understanding.

- Tim

T1Thoughts

12-09-04, 03:23 PM

Things that make you go Hmmm...
Beats me.....no pun intended;)

Coral Rhedd

12-09-04, 05:13 PM

Wow, no replies
I have a reply and it the same one I would give a woman. Leave, but leave safely. Have an escape plan. And never, ever hit back. It just escalates the violence.

It is easier to draw a line in the sand before the serious abuse starts. When I was married my then-husband pushed me rather hard and I looked him in the eye and asked: "Do you know why a gun is called an equalizer?" He never got physical with me again, but he did get back at me in other ways. He was a very vengeful person and he hated my talents and my intelligence. He was manipulative, verbally abusive and when I had a child he became dangerous in very subtle ways. I should have left him long before I did. Every abused person should leave.

MovingOn

12-09-04, 06:49 PM

Latesha: no one that has ever experienced abuse of that nature has to ask any of those questions. We already know the answers. Just thank yourself for pulling yourself out.

I was lucky, I didn't marry mine. And quite honestly he never once hit me. I can actually remember thinking to myself that if he would just hit me, then I would know for certain that I was being abused and that would mean I could leave. He was much too smart to leave a visible bruise. 4.0 his frosh year at M.I.T. (yes I saw the actual transcripts) before transferring to a state school for financial reasons. English was his second language. He was on his second quarter of academic probation when I met him. He wasn't pathologically jealous...he was a 19 year old sociopath.

My "lessons" continued for almost 4 months, interspersed with hours of daily supportive & intelligent phone calls, normal dates out with friends, evenings at my apartment in front of the fireplace, hikes in the mountains, lunch w/friends, all the normal stuff of a wonderful new relationship, except for the "lessons" 1, 2, or 3 times a week, depending on how quickly I healed. Never a bruise, never a scratch, never a harsh word uttered if it wasn't "lesson" time. Just pulled hair and knowing just how far he could twist my arm without actually dislocating the shoulder when I wasn't cooperative.

Finally he went 4 whole days without calling and without my seeing him. My brain cleared up enough for me to no longer believe that he was my own personal demon sent to me by God as punishment. How much of the foggy brain was ADD and how much was the drugs he had been feeding me in the alchohol, I don't know. But I decided to go to his house one last time to nicely tell him that I wanted out. I had to see his face so I could tell if he was going to trash me to everyone we knew and besides, I would have to see him socially for the next 2 years.

4-5 days later, I had to give in and go to the doctor. I wasn't "healing" on my own this time. I still had no visible bruises, but the doctor took one glance at me on the table and asked "Do you know who did this to you?" He finally told me that I "should" still be able to have children. But as he said this a male voice in my right ear told me clearly that I would never have children. And no decent man would ever want me because I was just a wh*re.

Two weeks later I caught him with my little sister. She was 17. I called an old boyfriend that had offered his help a few weeks earlier. He held me while I cried and told him every sordid detail of the abuse for 4 hours. Then suddenly, as if someone flipped a switch, the tears stopped, and apparently my little ADD brain locked all of those memories and that grief into a back room somewhere in my brain and tossed the key aside and for the next 23 years all I ever remembered was the good stuff, that I had had sex with him and that he had been abusive...he would pull my hair and twist my arm and oh yeah, he had stalked me for a year before I met him.

The rest of it and just a few other details did not come back to me until the first night that I took ritalin 2 years ago. But what details did come back, did so in vivid living color as if it had happened just the week before. Thankfully, most of it is still locked away. But at least now I know why I quit dating 14 years ago and why before that I rarely dated. Friends and family always said I was too picky. I only dated nice/decent guys, but I had to have sex with them the first date so that they knew what I was. I couldn't take the chance that they would actually start to care and then find out and throw me away.

Okay, I'm going to post this. It hurts. I'm glad I finally know,but it still hurts. I'm single. I have no children and never will. I live in an area of the country where sexual discrimination is the corporate policy of many companies and I am unable to function at work when the abuse starts. The 30 to 60% paycheck. The sabataged work because my boss has realized that I'm out performing him and he's afraid I'll realize he is repeatedly screwing up and I'll tell someone. The man that is hired in just because he's a man and that's just the way it is. The other women complain briefly when it happens to them, but they have suffered their abuse at work for so long that they won't do anything to risk losing their $26,000 a year paycheck even though male counterparts make $45,000. I don't know how to stay quiet when I earn $28500 a year and I know with certainty that given my sales production a man would have earned $73000.

But now that's not even a problem. I no longer have outstanding achievements at work. I can't think. I can't function. There's no fight left in me. This time I'm actually going to be fired because I can't do the job. I finally have the most wonderful boss with work that I know I love and I'm so destroyed from the other times that I am terrified all the time.

I don't know how to fix this.

Coral Rhedd

12-09-04, 07:32 PM

Yep Movingon, sociopaths are the very worst sort. Now you are involved with a sociopathic company. You are still taking it. Sorry to be brutal but that is the truth. I would rather exist on the edge of poverty outside any system than have the system s**** me over all the time. Can you document what you are going through?

My ex was a sociopath. I admire your courage in going so deeply into the past here. Even now I cringe at thinking about my ex. A sociopath only knows punishment. Any reward offered is an incentive to keep the victim pacified so that he/she can be punished again at the sociopath's pleasure. If for some reason, the victim moves out of the sociopath's reach he/she (yes there are female sociopaths) will find another route to punish. The victim's reputation, peace of mind, employment future, economic circumstances, family members and children can all become a surrogate target.

I went completely underground to escape my sociopath. But you can't escape the memories.

I did find out this. He remarried a woman very much like me. She was smart, pretty, and had children. I did try to warn her, but she thought he was wonderful. I will never know -- I don't want to know -- what their future with him became.

MovingOn

12-12-04, 01:25 PM

Coral Rhedd: I realize how lucky I was back then as I socialized in the same group as the slimebag for 2-3 more years. Unfortunately the girl after me was only 16 and stayed with him a year...went from a bright, happy, 4.0 student to being institutionalized for among other things drug addiction and dropped out of high school. The next girl was a friend of mine that was 4 mos into the relationship b4 I found out. She lasted 8 mos and was hospitalized for 9 days when it was over.....again no visible bruises. She was even more messed up than I was, as people would ask me what had happened to her. I could never explain to them how her self respect had been stolen from her.

I shudder to think if he was that destructive at 19, who he has destroyed since. Even my 60 year old shrink gasped when I told her he was 19.

Good news is that I never again tolerated any kind of abuse in my personal life. I recognize ALL of the warning signs. I just need to get this career thing worked out.

Coral Rhedd

12-12-04, 04:54 PM

Ah yes, the career thing. I can't believe I am so old and still so unsettled careerwise.

You know my daughter was attracted to a 17 year old when she was in high school who may have been something like your ex. He was an absolutely gorgeous boy. A real player. His girl friend, who was my daughter's friend, had just been hospitalized for a breakdown, when this guy started coming on to my daughter. I don't live in a big city, so I asked around. A psychologist friend who knew these teens from his practice cued me in that the young man was a sociopath and I warned my daughter. My daughter has made her share of mistakes but she has always been able to recognize a "Caution" sign when she sees one. (I also had a reputation as a very protective and proactive mother. Many of my daughter's potential suitors could not survive my pre-date grilling.)

Thought I might add some of the signs of a sociopath for others who are reading. The following is paraphrased from the book Emotional Vampires: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry by Albert J. Bernstein, Ph.D.:

1. Thinks rules are for others and not them.
2. Believes problems can be solved by force or intimidation.
3. Can be quite charming.
4. Will break social norms without apology. Bernstein mentions people who smoke without permission. I think another clue is when someone first comes to your home and they ask as if they own it and violate your boundaries and privacy. Some women think this behavior is a turn on. Instead, it should be a red flag.
5. Makes promises easily. Keeps them, rarely.
6. Is chillingly fearless and without worries.
7. Has a record.
8. Is dishonest in speech and deed.
9. Makes threats and uses emotions mainly to manipulate.
10. Deliberately destroys the self-esteem of others.

Sometimes the Narcissist and the Sociopath exist in the same person. This is an especially dangerous combination because you insult these people at your peril. They are very very vengeful.

Not all sociopaths are physically dangerous, but all of them are psychologically dangerous. They are often attracted to high risk sports, sales jobs, or even politics. Their charm often comes from their daring. They are happiest when they are conning others.

MovingOn

12-14-04, 12:35 PM

Coral: Thanks for the post, hopefully it will help others to identify a potential risk. The list unfortunately also described my boss at my favorite job ever. Recognized that one WAY TOO LATE!

Off to work on the career thing............

timh

12-14-04, 08:37 PM

I think we need to be careful with the definitions. Many of the signs below can also be attributed to ADD/HD. I added my comments below,which were taken from "Driven to Distraction" Chapter 7.

Thought I might add some of the signs of a sociopath for others who are reading. The following is paraphrased from the book Emotional Vampires: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry by Albert J. Bernstein, Ph.D.:

1. Thinks rules are for others and not them.

10. Trouble in going through established channels, following "proper" procedure.
2. Believes problems can be solved by force or intimidation.

12. Impulsive, either verbally or in action, as in impulsive spending, changing plans, enacting new schemes or career plans, and the like; hot-tempered.
3. Can be quite charming.

9. Often creative, intuitive , highly intelligent
4. Will break social norms without apology. Bernstein mentions people who smoke without permission. I think another clue is when someone first comes to your home and they ask as if they own it and violate your boundaries and privacy. Some women think this behavior is a turn on. Instead, it should be a red flag.

5. Tendency to say (or do) what comes to mind without necessarily considering the timing or appropriateness of the remark
5. Makes promises easily. Keeps them, rarely.

3. Chronic procrastination or trouble getting started
4. Many projects going simultaneously; trouble with follow-through
6. Is chillingly fearless and without worries.

6. A frequent search for high stimulation
7. Has a record.

17. A tendency towards addictive behavior (illegal drug use, in trouble with the law)
8. Is dishonest in speech and deed.

Couldn't find one.
9. Makes threats and uses emotions mainly to manipulate.

15. Mood swings, mood lability, especially when disengaged from a person or project.
10. Deliberately destroys the self-esteem of others.

1. A sense of underachievement, of not meeting one's goals
14. A sense of insecurity
18. Chronic problems with self-esteem

MovingOn

12-14-04, 09:28 PM

Timh:

Thank your lucky stars you've never crossed paths with a sociopath!

We as ADDers share many traits with others such as BP, OCD, Autism, Aspies, etc. and as we tend to be cronic worriers, I can understand where perhaps you "worried" that Coral was being a bit judgemental with her quote.

I understand how you arrived at your comparisons, but please believe me they aren't correct. Comparing a sociopath to someone with ADD is like comparing a Hurricane to a 5 minute afternoon shower on your day at the beach. Yeah, they both dump water on you, but while one is a nuisance, the other can literally kill you if you don't get out of the way. This is not an exagerated statement. Sociopaths are hideous beasts when they choose to be. They also know how to be excrutiatingly normal when they need to be. I've never heard of anyone with ADD being able to control when and if it affects them.

Consider this: how many ADDers would have the mental wear-with-all to actually stalk someone? Please, we can't even schedule ourselves, no way could we find the time to mimic and observe someone else's schedule. (Mine told me almost a year later that he learned if he was at a certain corner by 10:18 on MWF that he could follow me to my next class and then went on to describe my entire wardrobe in minute detail!)

Believe me there is no comparison. The added problem is that so many of us with ADD rely heavily upon visual cues when judging another's actions and sociopaths can be very adept at hiding those cues.

Coral Rhedd

12-14-04, 09:47 PM

Timh, you have raised a legitimate concern. The book I mentioned talks about several types of personality disorders but not in a heavy way. There is a lot of humor in it. And it would be a rare person that wouldn't find something of themselves in some of the disorders and the behaviors mentioned.

Therefore, I will search out the true DSM criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

I will tell you this. I have known at least five people with this disorder. Maybe if I describe one of them, it will help. This is a man I will call Henry.

Henry was married to a good friend of mine. He not only had little conception of right and wrong, but he had little conception that others might not approve of his behavior. Once when I was having dinner with my then-husband, Henry, and Henry's wife, who was my good friend Lucy, the conversation turned to where or not date rape was "real rape." This was in the 1970s and this was a hot topic at the time in women's magazines. Henry got a strange look on his face and I thought he was about to say something about "women asking for it." Imagine my shock when Henry said something like this: "I've committed rape. It was at a party and this woman there agreed to have sex with one of the men but me and some other guys wanted in on it too."

"Did she say 'no,'" I asked.

"Well yeah, but she didn't have much say about it. She was crying and screaming and everything so I guess she was pretty unhappy about it." Henry grinned, leaned back, and lit a cigarette. He didn't ask permission to smoke.

Henry didn't make any excuses about the rape. It was what it was.

One month after my friend Lucy had given birth to their baby, he raped Lucy too. She stayed with him. She stayed through the beatings. She stayed through the affairs. After the birth of their second child, he forgot to pick Lucy and the baby up at the hospital. A friend took Lucy and the newborn home and then went to find Henry and Lucy and Henry's little girl who was in Henry's care. The friend located Henry at a w***e house. Henry's and Lucy's three year old daughter was sleeping on the sofa there while men came and went.

Now forgetting to pick up your wife and newborn from the hospital might be ADD but how on earth do we characterize taking one's daughter to a w***e house?

Lucy stayed with Henry even after that.

It is telling that you did not find anything about the dishonesty. I forgot to mention the biggest indicator of sociopathy. Sociopaths do not empathize and they have no real concept of right and wrong.

The traits I summarized from the book are not meant to be taken singly as diagnostic of anything and I do admit the book is pop psychology. I have one of the traits mentioned. I sometimes don't keep promises. In fact, I sometimes forget I have even made promises.

My question is this: Why would anyone knowingly enter into a relationship with someone who had all those traits?

If anyone is interested in reading the seminal text on sociopathy (called psychopathy at the time) it is Mask of Sanity by Hervey Cleckley. In no way could the description in that book be mistaken for ADD. I will always be glad I read that book. Reading it helped me to realize that I could not help/save/rescue/change my then-husband. It helped me to realize that I had to escape him instead.

I apologize if my post lacked clarity on the seriousness of Sociopathic Personality Disorder.

mylife

12-14-04, 10:09 PM

Very interesting points that you all made. Boy oh Boy! My husband who abused me physically (once and I left) and emotionally for 4 years has many characteristics of a sociopath...which is scary...but I know that those characteristics run deeper (desc. of sociopath). He did get counseling and yes he has lost control (verbally not physically) in the past 6 years. We have been married a total of 10 years. Last year, after researching early onset bipolar on my son...I realized that my husband had bp as well. After a big blow-up and telling him I would not live with him unless he got help...he took my advice and saw a psychiatrist. He has been taking all his meds faithfully and is a much more stable person and is able to recognize how his illness affected him and me (and kids).

Point: There are many symptoms of mental illness that cross paths. One must be very careful in examining them and look at them in great detail. I also strongly feel that past life events also can influence "look-alike" symptoms/behavior (victims of violence).

MovingOn

12-14-04, 10:16 PM

Timh:

I thought I'd explain a bit further:

1. Thinks rules are for others and not them.
A sociopath can follow the rules and blend in when it is to his advantage. ADDers get in trouble because they can't make this distinction.

2. Believes problems can be solved by force or intimidation.
Think of this as "knife in the back" behavior. Most ADDers are too busy mentally beating on themselves to have time to attack others.

3. Can be quite charming.
This isn't about just being intuitive or creative. A sociopath can present himself as a normal caring, sensitive, supportive, communicative human being when he is actually none of these things, he is simply acting that way to gain your trust and/or admiration.

4. Will break social norms without apology. Bernstein mentions people who smoke without permission. I think another clue is when someone first comes to your home and they ask as if they own it and violate your boundaries and privacy. Some women think this behavior is a turn on. Instead, it should be a red flag.
This is harder to explain. They break the norm when they think they can get away with it. Example: the only time I noticed my stalker during the year he stalked me, I caught him staring at me from across the room at a party. The vast majority of people, including ADDers, will automatically look away when caught staring. This guy smiled and mouthed the word "hello" to me. I found the behavior odd and the look in his eyes as he smiled sent chills over me and I literally ran in the opposite direction. When I actually met him 3 mos later, he was SO NORMAL I thought I must have been having a bad night the previous time.

5. Makes promises easily. Keeps them, rarely.
They are great liars.

6. Is chillingly fearless and without worries.
It's as if they are ABOVE death. Nothing can touch or hurt them.

7. Has a record.
(Don't believe mine had been caught yet.)

8. Is dishonest in speech and deed.
Again, great liars.

9. Makes threats and uses emotions mainly to manipulate.
This again is a bit tough to explain. In my case, after visciously abusing me the night before, calling the next day to thank me for the wonderful time "we" had the night before, as if thanking me for having cooked his dinner, attempting to make his sexual abuse seem like a "normal" dating event. And I believed him!

10. Deliberately destroys the self-esteem of others.
ADDers destroy their own self-esteem through failure and by listening to the rantings of others. A sociopath destroys his victims' self-esteem through verbal and sometimes physical abuse.

I hope this cleared things up a bit instead of muddying them.

MovingOn

12-14-04, 10:26 PM

Sociopaths do not empathize and they have no real concept of right and wrong.

Coral:
That statement defines them perfectly, but what some people may not realize is that they are able to learn and mimic what society recognizes as right and wrong and act accordingly in order to blend in. That's why they are so dangerous.

Wow! Your poor friend Lucy! Did she ever break away from her tormentor!

Coral Rhedd

12-14-04, 10:53 PM

I do not know what happened to Lucy. When I escaped my ex, I cut all ties with her because her husband and my ex continued to be friends. I could not protect myself and my daughter and still stay in touch with Lucy because she wasn't strong.

Your comment about them mimicing normal behavior is interesting. My ex once became rather addicted to soap operas and when I asked him what was the attraction, he told me he was learning about "normal" people.

Coral Rhedd

12-14-04, 10:56 PM

Here are some links on sociopathy and they include discussions of the DSM criteria:

faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm

www.trancenet.org/hearts/research/reference/dsm4.shtml (http://www.trancenet.org/hearts/research/reference/dsm4.shtml)

encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Sociopathy

Nucking_Futs

12-15-04, 04:42 PM

My worst nightmare as a child was a stepfather that was forced on me by my mother for 6 years. He's a sociopath or at least that was his most recent dx among so many others it's hard to tell. In trying to describe a sociopath I can only say they are vampires that feed off of others pain and humiliation. After one beating that left me in the hospital with a punctured lung and bloody rips along my back and rib cage he told the police that he had beaten me out of fear...I had run away and he was terrified that I had been kidnapped the thing is he was so "normal" in his betrayel of the grieving, terrified, worried father that no one not even the police thought to ask why would a 5 year old run away. It was chalked up to nothing more then an over-reaction and I was sentenced to live another 2 years under this man's roof. I'm not bitter or even angry anymore because I know the truth...it's like walking around a building and getting hit by a semi...you couldn't see it coming, couldn't hear it coming and definatly couldn't feel it coming. If you even suspect...GET THE HELL OUT before they take you out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nova

12-15-04, 06:01 PM

I haven't encountered the 'guilt' trip in personal relationships, as much as at work.
I do know that I have serious issues with judgement when it comes to choosing the right guys. I've been married twice, and I've had numerous relationships otherwise.
The last one I was in, which lasted for six months, he was ADD also, and he flaked out every month, and wanted to be alone. We had great communication/relationship otherwise. The last time he wanted to be alone, I stopped talking to him completely.
I go a long time, just being detached from people I date- meaning I choose people that I don't really do anything with other than going out once in a while, or talking once in a while. Once in a while I find someone who I believe to be compassionate, and still meet other criteria I am looking for, only to have it be a total heartbreak later. Especially when I really let my guard down. Then, I think of all the situations when I could've not been so understanding, and how this person doesn't have a clue of how much of an effort it is for me to regroup, and act like it never happened, and what's WORSE is that I could've been detached and I wasn't.
I think I'm going to subscribe to the theory of not allowing anyone in anymore. It's just easier to deal with in the long run than beating myself up over why I STILL can't identify with destructive behavior in guys I'm attracted to, when in my profession, I've had over 20 years of training in regards to behavioral analysis/motive.
I'm just going to be 'overwhelming' to people I date, without feeling the need, which is perpetuated by society, for 'intimacy' (all general aspects, not in reference to only sexual).
I'm much happier clamming up whenever someone wants to know 'more about me' in personal relationships, so detachment is a survival skill for me.
Nova

MovingOn

12-15-04, 06:17 PM

Wow Nova! You sound like me in the old days. The thing is I totally quit dating over 14 years ago and before that I remained detached from almost everyone I dated and relationships rarely lasted more than 2-3 months. However, unlike you, I was extremely careful not to date "bad boys" and being so cautious caused me to date infrequently.

I now realize that all of that behavior was a result of the abuse that I suffered from that one bad seed. I had repressed the abuse for so long that I had no idea why I had withdrawn. It sounds as if you may need to explore this yourself. I know of no successful relationships where one partner is constantly "detached". It is not how I want to spend the rest of my life.

Unfortunately, now the ADD thing has everything else so screwed up I don't feel I have anything to offer a partner at the moment, though I know for certain I would be doing better with someone in my life. I always have before.

If there were only a market for middle-aged, overweight, spastic women!

But I'm still going to keep trying!

Nucking_Futs

12-15-04, 10:07 PM

There's a market for everything and anyone...you don't think there is a middle aged, overweight, spastic male thinking the samething right now?

Coral Rhedd

12-15-04, 10:44 PM

you don't think there is a middle aged, overweight, spastic male thinking the samething right now?
Well to be brutally honest, probably not many. Instead they are dreaming of youth and beauty. Ever watch their heads swivel when someone young walks by. Let describe my last date with Mr. Self-centered. I met him in a book store. He had a certain lean and hungry look. (Julius Caesar had warned about this. :rolleyes: ) I decided to overlook the slightly stringy immature hairdo he had cultivated and agreed to a coffee date. We met at Denny's. Heaven forbid this guy would spend much money on me before I took his measure. I ain't for sale.

He proceeded to tell me all about himself. He proceeded to tell me ALL about himself. HE PROCEEDED TO TELL ME ALL ABOUT HIMSELF. He made very little eye contact with me; he was so into himself. I got his job history. His relationship history. The history of philosophy he didn't major in in school. After my enduring his navel gazing, something besides himself finally got his attention. A very well put together teenaged girl walked by in short shorts. He was utterly riveted. His mouth flew open. He almost drooled.

"I have to go," I said.

"Huh," he said.

I repeated myself, gathered my handbag and left.

He called me a week later. He had had a great time. He couldn't wait to see me again. What sort of food and movies did I like?

I curbed his enthusiasm. "Thank you, but I didn't feel we were compatible."

He said (Get this! :D ) "But you don't even know me."

Okay, so he probably wasn't a sociopath. I won't say I didn't yearn for some of that semi-sociopathic charm.

DYNAMITE

12-15-04, 11:22 PM

I left my soon-to-be ex husband who had a very very eruptive temper in March this year, he was "only" verbally abusive but a couple of times I noticed it could very well have gone the other way, with throwing stuff at me or raising his hand against me. he demanded I make babies with him, and shouted even more when I said I couldn't bring a child into a house where the dad blows up like that, and that he needed help (for the umpteenth time, I thought maybe this time he'd actually listen). I left shortly thereafter.

And yes, he used to pick on EVERYTHING that made up "me", every time I misheard/misunderstood/misread something, the clumsiness, the constant worrying, the inability to do a task in the household in one go ("halfarsed job" was a phrase I heard a lot) even though at least I id the cleaning cooking etc. at all while he sat on his a**e and played about on his computer, forgetting/not paying attention to "his rules" (even though he had wrecked his memory - short-and long term - with drug abuse but that's not the same is it!!! :mad: ) and so on.

Phew, sorry for the rant!!! Am happy with a loving and udnerstanding boyfriend now who has similar shortcomings and loves me for who I am :)
Iam trying to divorce a abusive(verbal,mental,past alittle physical). He wont let me go. I left him March too. He is doing everthing possible to make my life miserable. Determined to force me back out of quilt,poverty and despair. Still abusive. He said I cant prove verbal abuse, besides he tells everyone Iam crazy. The world places Dr.'s on a pedlestol. I know the truth and know the truth always comes out.

"You can be having the best moment of your life and it doesn't feel good"

Coral Rhedd

12-15-04, 11:30 PM

Hi Karen,

Do you have children with your husband? Is he using them against you as well?

Draga

12-15-04, 11:35 PM

I do not know what happened to Lucy. When I escaped my ex, I cut all ties with her because her husband and my ex continued to be friends. I could not protect myself and my daughter and still stay in touch with Lucy because she wasn't strong.
.

I been Avoiding this one for the longest time cause this has maybe touched a nerve but I could be taking it out of context so I have to ask ya one thing hun....Forgive me If I am way off but......

I sounds as if you are like saying she was a coward for staying and she was a hopeless cause.

If women are in an abusive relationship and are afraid to get out it's because he has destroyed her from the inside and she's in the trap. I been in this trap before and was also blind to realize just how deep of a trap I was in.....I even been threatened that if I tried to leave they would kill me...and they made me feel like I was no good and like I could not survive without them....THAT is the trap. Only reason i am out of those relationships now is cause THEY LEFT ME (I guess they figured there was nothing left to destroy) Maybe cause I already had such a low self image of myself it was easy for them...Was I weak? Maybe so but was It my fault that I was weak?

Once I got away from them I got stronger and stronger...Heh Ask Cherity and TRUE FRIENDSHIP like I have with ladies Like Cherity and the ones in the support group here who seen me through the hardest of times and were there to pull me back to strength when ever I started to fall are the main reasons I am strong now.

Sometimes you cant find strength on your Own......It helps to have a guide or two. I hope Tina has found that strength .....Strength I might add that is truly there all along but only covered by bruises and Hate..

Coral Rhedd

12-15-04, 11:42 PM

I sounds as if you are like saying she was a coward for staying and she was a hopeless cause.

Not at all. I went underground and she would have told her husband where I was and he would have told my husband where I was. You see, my husband tried to poison our daughter. I knew he might likely kill us both if he found us because we knew too much about him. We were witnesses to a crime he had committed. I had to protect myself and my daughter.

Draga

12-15-04, 11:50 PM

Nova

12-15-04, 11:52 PM

The dominant factor in choosing the guys that I do is 'excitement'. Even when they seem perfectly 'normal, reasonable, and so wonderful' to the rest of society, I can sense that wild streak in them. I can't stand to be bored, so I need someone who is able to match my- ahem- energy level. When it stops being evervescent or lively, and becomes taxing, then I'm the one left to sort out why I keep doing this.
In actuality though, I'm glad I haven't allowed for closeness in many personal relationships, because I do manage well if I'm just allowed to go out and have fun with the guy. I think I was attached this last time around because I had someone that I really didn't have to explain my quirks to, such as yawning from effect of the Adderall, and not due to being tired, or how I get up in the middle of the night to surf the net, or how I interrupt constantly because I JUST HAVE TO say what's on my mind or else I'll explode :) Plus all the other wonderful nuances of lacking 'brakes' in other situations. He understood all that, as I did with him. I just didn't understood the skittishness, because I thought we were over that after the last episode, to which I basically 'let him have it', and he was fine for about another month-LOL !
Really sounds absurd when I see it in type :)
I have issues. I can live with them. I just don't know how someone else is supposed to when even another ADDer coudn't. (shrugs)

Coral Rhedd

12-16-04, 01:27 AM

OH My......I appologize again...I understand Now. Oiy Forgive Me. My Reading Comp. is not all it cracked up to be.

I guess it triggered me cause I have had closest relatives who never been in a ****ing abusive relationship before make me feel like a coward or an Idiot for staying or not telling them what was going on. With support like that who needs Enema's ..hehe
Don't worry Melly. I thought it was something like that.

He never did actually hit me. I wish he had then I would have known what I was dealing with. It was a long, long time ago and my child is all grown up now.

Draga

12-16-04, 01:32 AM

Heh.....shug...From dis person POV be glad he didn't hit ya. We never really truly know in the beginning...cause ya know they are wolves in sheeps clothing and only way to see them for who they really are is to watch for the red flags, For some it a repeating pattern but realize it till we hit rock bottom.

Nova

12-16-04, 06:04 AM

I, also had many broken bones and my nose broken by my real father.
Lovely man.

Nova

Draga

12-16-04, 06:17 AM

Yikes Nova...Hugs..Sorry to hear that....My dad was not really a saint(rest his soul) but he attacked more with words....finally learned to forgive the man...but not the acts

Nova

12-16-04, 07:40 AM

Hey Draga-
Say 'Howdy' to NOLA for me. I miss it.
Nova

Draga

12-16-04, 07:54 AM

Yer from here Originally?

Will do...btw

Nucking_Futs

12-16-04, 08:41 AM

NO I"m from California orginally then moved to Nebraska...OOO wait you weren't talking to me were you? lmbo

Draga

12-16-04, 08:46 AM

I know where Ur from :p LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nucking_Futs

12-16-04, 08:47 AM

WEll just in case you forgot or somethin I thought I'd remind you.

Draga

12-16-04, 08:58 AM

Thanks For the Tip.......I'll be sure to look for that in Nucking Futs Tribute & Dance Hall In California where they celebrate your birth.........If They dont have one dang it they should :p

teddy

12-16-04, 10:39 AM

Hey~

All you knowledgeable ladies out there..I am not sure that I understand what "controling is".. I'm in a new relationship (7 months of living together) and I am hearing comments from my mother and others in family about his controling me..but I guess I don't know or understand what they mean....or our these others in my life just upset that we

(me and S.O. do almost everything together-and most of the time I am enjoying these activities-(lack of better term)

are always together and it shortens the extra free time I have to do things with them? Does that make any sense? I have been in a couple physical and mentally abusive relationships in past..so why am I so blind this time ...or am I clear off the deep end? Thanks for any help:)

T1Thoughts

12-16-04, 12:11 PM

I like this Group cyber setting, shall we continue?

ferrette1976

12-16-04, 12:17 PM

Teddy,

From what you say, it sounds like your relationship is not abusive. But if I were you I would ask your family what it is exactly that makes him controlling. They might be able to see things in your relationship that you don't see.

Nucking_Futs

12-16-04, 02:00 PM

but, also keep in mind having a little hobby to yourself is important. My husband spend probably 20 hours a day together, we can't seem to have fun unless the other is present...we're best friends; but, we do have our own hobbies that separate us some. Your family as ferrette has mentioned may see something you have not seen yet or they could just be upset by your lack of time spent with them. You'll never know unless you sit them down and ask and listen with an open mind.

Good luck,

cubfan

12-16-04, 04:11 PM

I was always the kind of person who stayed in a relationship for no good reasons but couldn't get the courage to end it. I always waited for the guy to break up with me (and did things to push them away) and then ran like h*ll. I have never given anyone a second chance after a break up. Pretty lame way of dealing with problems.
Some of my friends call it strength, I call it cowardice! Oh well, at least I didn't marry any of them. I got that going for me, which is nice. (Caddyshack quote, haha)

Coral Rhedd

12-16-04, 06:16 PM

Hey~

. . . I'm in a new relationship (7 months of living together) and I am hearing comments from my mother and others in family about his controling me..but I guess I don't know or understand what they mean . . .

I have been in a couple physical and mentally abusive relationships in past..so why am I so blind this time ...or am I clear off the deep end? Thanks for any help:)
They may just mean that they have been concerned about the choices you have made in the past and are busy looking for those red flags.

I would be concerned if he seemed to be trying to isolate me from my friends and family. If he is overly critical of my friends and family. If he seemed jealous of others and possessive of me.

I think the key word is isolating. In order to abuse, the abusive person may first try do away with your support system. It is much easier to abuse a person who feels alone.

If your current relationship does not have these red flags then there is probably little need to worry.

Nova

12-16-04, 09:26 PM

I'm from Baton Rouge. But the B.E. always has a huge place in my heart.
I just went there for work back at the end of August. With a slew of people, for a conference. We didn't make it to most of the conference, although I did give it a good effort :D
Nova

Nova

12-17-04, 10:52 PM

Here's an article to make all our lives easier.
Most AD/HDers have the added bonus :) of one or two personality disorders. I am 'blessed' with Histrionic and Dependant PD's in addition to my ADHD.
I look like such a girl too-LOL !

If you don't get enough information as to why we here are attracted to the same dysfunctional typologies over and over, you can always look up the co-morbidity (in existence with) of some PD's with others.
We're unique that way. I wouldn't even try and explain all this to others unless you're confident they understand psychology, and don't lump everything, including your AD/HD into the convenient category of 'crazy', or make you feel like you are.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar04/mixing.html

...Daria

12-18-04, 10:46 AM

How many of you who are ADD/ADHD are in or have been in an abusive relationship? Does your spouse make you feel guilty for every little thing? etc?
THIS IS A YESS...
OK I would always give myself a guilt trip. He used to tell me. I don't understand why I hit you. I never hit anyone else in my life that I have loved especially a woman. I, of course, repsponded with the "but, why me???"

I always had that on my mind. Like man I really must be messed up. I don't deserve better. I need to fix it myself so that we can be happy. I ... I .. I.. ...
I AM THE PROBLEM!

nOOOOoooOO!
I found out I was not and I always think back to how I felt and realize my pain lies in myself and with ADD and not knowing about it or allowing myself to, I could not get out of depression modes and he always made me feel like I was guilty of all the problems in our relationship. I am now seeking help due to my recent discovery on ADD.

I recently asked him to seek help. (no response ... ):(

Nucking_Futs

01-02-05, 03:25 PM

Mary try asking him to seek help with you. Doug was more receptive when he thought it was to help me. It took a few therapy sessions together to see that a lot of our issue's were not mine alone. It's a marriage it should grow with you.

E-boy

01-03-05, 10:46 AM

I picked abusive. If the treatment I got in my last relationship didn't constitute abuse it was downright unhealthy, and I'm sure the treatment I got growing up qualifies.

I hate nothing more than bullies and abusive persons, whether emotionally/verbally abusive, or physically abusive, are no more than bullies to me. Oddly enough my ex, is a victims rights advocate, and the time she spent being physically abused at the hands of her ex may have contributed to the anger she vented on me. She taught me a great deal about how people deal with abusive situations though, and it makes me feel sick inside to hear people say things like, "Why didn't she just leave?"

To all who have been there and gotten themselves out, I salute you and your courage. To those still embroiled in the terror and self recrimination, I say, "It isn't your fault and there really is a way out". What a wonderful topic to post. Bravo!

Nucking_Futs

01-03-05, 11:40 AM

Dan the terror and humility of mental and emotional abuse far outweigh that of the physical nature so do not forget to salute yourself. The hardest thing for me was to realize I kept searching these relationships out and why I kept searching them out. Soul searching is not the easiest task to undertake not for a coward. So, I now knew the why's and were for's the next step was to move past anything I had ever known and leave my comfort zone behind and find the relationship that I felt I really deserved not what everyone else was telling me I deserved. For many abuse suffers it's that they are caught in a comfort zone...it's all they know, they know how to survive but now give them a healthy, loving relationship and their lost...it's to frightening for many and there are those who don't believe they deserve happiness. Everyone deserves to be happy and live their life without fear.

E-boy

01-03-05, 11:42 AM

AMEN to that Futs!

Nucking_Futs

01-03-05, 12:26 PM

Well I may not make them often but when I do have a point to make they are good sharp pointy ones.

E-boy

01-03-05, 01:16 PM

Well don't go poking me with them! OUCHIES! I'm very delicate you know! ;-)

siamgirl_66

01-03-05, 04:34 PM

Nucking_Futs

01-03-05, 06:46 PM

I'm not offended in anyway. I often detach myself from hurtful situations because I lack the skills in "rolling with the punches". I would truly look deep into yourself and your partner or child to see the reason for the detachment...is he/she beating themself up for a task not completed (we are known to do that), are your words hurtful? (words have different meaning for everyone...I once asked my son what were you thinking? he actually heard "RETARD!!" it's not a word I use at all but it's what he heard). Life has to be discussed evenly with both parties having a chance to be heard, detachment is abusive in that it robs you of your right to voice what your beliefs and what brings you great pain or joy. Talking over another is a way of robbing someone of their personal rights as well. To save our marriage my husband and I had to learn how to fight...in other words I detached and he yelled and kept talking over me. We had to learn to say our piece and shut up while the other got their chance and that meant I had to also retrain myself to not hide. It's so easy to hide but nothing comes from it. I'm not sure if I touched on any of your personal experiance there are many with experiance and just as many reasons for the detachment, keep asking, start your own thread dedicated to the issue alone. We will do our best to help you understand us and maybe give you a better way to work around the self destructive behaviour your SO/child is displaying.

Good luck and big hugs
I know loving an ADD'er is not easy...but no one said love of any kind would be. It's worth the fight.
Cherity

Coral Rhedd

01-03-05, 06:55 PM

WoW! What courageous survivors you all are to have endured so much physically, verbally and emotionally!

I apologize for offending anyone with the following statement, but isn't detachment a form of emotional abuse for the non ADD partner?
Hi Siamgirl,

What a good question you have raised. One of my favorite movies is The Breakfast Club and in it Ally Sheedy plays a girl who says her parents do something really bad to her. What does that turn out to be: "They ignore me."

I suppose detachment could be a form of abuse if it meets certain criteria. One would be if behind the detachment was the intention to inflict hurt. The other would be if the result of detachment was that the detached person was ignoring certain promises. Marriage vows and relationship agreements imply a certain amount of emotional imtimacy.

Myself, I tend to overfocus on relationships. If I become detached, look out. I am already gone.

Maybe some folks who have trouble being verbal or have a little Asperger's would like to share. I believe my daughter has some Asperger's tendencies. Sometimes I have to be quite specific in getting her to acknowledge emotional components of our relationship.

Are you clearly communicating your needs?

Deeperblue

01-03-05, 07:04 PM

and I believe that withholding behavior can be very painful, especailly if it's intended to manipulate, control or compel you to comply and/or behave in a certain way.

Coral Rhedd

01-03-05, 07:21 PM

I think you have to ask yourself what the detachment really means. There are some people who can only be "in love" but they cannot truly love. When the excitement of the initial phase of the relationship is over, they have nothing left to offer. Some people cannot express themselves verbally and some people have trouble with physical intimacy.

My ex-husband only understood physical intimacy. He was a sociopath with schizoidal tendencies. I spent years trying to connect with him. When I asked him "How do you feel?", he would reply, "With my hands." He wasn't kidding.

Not to shock anyone, but I believe that "for better or worse" stuff should imply some mutuality. Nowadays, if I found I was doing all the emotional work of a relationship, I would just leave. Life is too short to spend it parched in the desert of someone's indifference.

Deeperblue

01-04-05, 07:47 AM

Life is too short to spend it parched in the desert of someone's indifference.

yes----and it does take so long to come to this realization, yet it is so very essential (in my humble opionion- :rolleyes: )

as a friend of mine would say to me, "Don't go to the hardware- store if you are looking for a loaf of bread." And even if the "sales person" (in the hardware store) can promise or produce a loaf of bread and he/she really tries to act like a baker, the reality is that eventually the nails become apparent. (and besides, do you really want a crunchy loaf of bread :( when you are craving smooth, warm, soothing bread?)

So!! I might as well decide on going to the bakery, in the first place. This lesson is very hard--I'm still practicing. But I love bread.

siamgirl_66

01-04-05, 02:38 PM

I was invovled with a man who I suspect has ADD. He shows all the signs.

When we go out, he would start off being very hyperfocus on me and than he would become detached and be distracted usually by another woman. I seem to disappear and become insignificant. I told him I felt that this was disrespectful and forms of rejection of me.

He would not acknowledge my feelings. He said he didn't reget what he did. He knows he is selfish and that is the way he chooses and he doesn't care who he hurts.

I wrote him a letter basically calling his behavior to the carpet and told him I felt his behavior was abusive.

I really care for this man, but I don't feel I should tolerate his behavior.

Although we are not seeing each other presently. I want to help him see that his behavior is destructive ( that's the codependent in my wanting to "fix" him)

I want to initiate some form of communication where I can get him to get diagnosed.

Despite his bad behavior, I know he's a very caring man.

Deeperblue

01-04-05, 02:55 PM

I have been in a relationship that was not in my best interest.
One thing that I discovered is that I could never nor should I attempt to change him. (and I could not expect him to meet my needs.)

Still, I am not trying to imply that letting go is an easy process. I have found coda to be my guide; the group support gave me focus and understaning and courage and knowledge.

and I just got tired of going to the "hardware store for my bread" hugs to you siamgirl 66

siamgirl_66

01-04-05, 05:35 PM

Deeper blue,

I feel as if all I've gotten lately from him is crumbs.

He had crushed my self esteem really bad. That is why I started surfing the net for info about ADD. I wanted to understand what was going on.

I know now that I took things personally, but than again I know that his behavior is also inexcusable.

This forum has helped tremendously in my understanding about ADD.

I can see despite being ADD, people are caring and giving and can change their behavior (if they want).

But if an ADDer doesn't mean to be malicious in his behavior, do you still point out that the bad behavior is abusive and ask them to get help?

Deeperblue

01-04-05, 05:58 PM

yes,of course you can ask someone to get help. In my opinion though, if your partner refuses to seek help and/or does not have insight about his/her behavior, there is not much else for you to do.

It then becomes your personal work to seek a relationship that works for you; you can opt out of the relationship and move toward a more rewarding and supportive and loving connection(not easy--especially if you have invested much of yourself into the current relationship.)

I say this even and regardless of the fact that your partner "doesn't mean to be malicious in his behavior" because it really does not matter--what really counts is the fact that you are being hurt. My position is that you count. You are the one that I see who is hurting and you do not deserve to be hurt in such away...no one does.

So the issues that I see: the difficulty for you in leaving this relationship. Your hopes that he will change and you sadness about ending it. but please look for better.

I would never settle for crumbs on the floor even if they are from the loaf of bread in the bakey...

hugs to you siamgirl66

Nucking_Futs

01-04-05, 08:21 PM

By all means point out how hurtful his behaviour is towards you and how it lowers your self esteem. There were many things I did that I never even would have considered abusive but my husband did and it ate at him until we were very close to divorce and sought help for the both of us. Just be ready to cut your losses and run. I wanted to change not only for my husband but for myself, if your SO doesn't want to change no amount of prodding, wishing and hoping will get him to.

Big hugs and lots of support,
Cherity

siamgirl_66

01-05-05, 02:15 PM

Thanks to all of you who replied and for your concern.

I am no longer seeing this person and am having a hard time letting go.

I did send him a letter stating that I felt he was abusive and I may have been to harsh. I reference his sister's suicide in the letter and stated that I hope no one treated her the same way he treated me.

I'm working on getting myself better in the meantime.

I just want to help him break the cycle of emotional abuse and to have him get diagnosed for ADD.

Should I try another letter poionting out the syptoms of ADD that he displays?

Draga

01-05-05, 02:36 PM

Either that or give him link to this forum....He may need to hear it from more than one person just to believe it...Stubborn ppl are like dat.

Deeperblue

01-05-05, 02:40 PM

I understand that letting go is really hard---making the clean break and not communicating takes guts and lots of determination. In the mean time, it seems to be difficult for you; you are hurting and missing him.

Are you in touch with what you want the outcome to be from a letter; what are your goals with regards to a letter. I would probably wait until you are clear on what you would like to accomplish from continued communication.

It is kind and compassionate for and of you to want to be supportive, yet I am wondering how this will help you.

Would it be possible to take some time (maybe even write the letter) but hold off mailing it...give it some time. Maybe then, you might have another perspective. good luck

Nucking_Futs

01-05-05, 07:08 PM

Give him the link to the forums. I believe that hearing it from fellow ADD'ers would be more believable then hearing it from a non-ADD'er. Not that we are better then you or some kind of seclusive club were you have to half nuts to join, it's just that "we" as in a small majority tend to take constructive criticism from as an attack on our person and do not respond well, we rather hide behind a "victims clothe". Before I sought help for myself everytime my husband mentioned how hurtful my zoning out was I felt that he was trying to drug me and change me to fit his needs...I could never see the damage and pain I sometimes left behind.

Good luck and don't take his behaviour as normal ADD behaviour, many of us manage to hold very well balanced relationships and take constructive criticism to heart and do our best to work on our behaviours. It's about growing and learning and living to the best of your ability.

Hugs,
Cherity

Draga

01-05-05, 07:09 PM

Give him the link to the forums. I believe that hearing it from fellow ADD'ers would be more believable then hearing it from a non-ADD'er.

It's Like Reading My Mind but in more words:p

free2bme

01-05-05, 07:19 PM

i cannot emphasize enough how you should NOT send this person another letter. i know exactly how you are feeling. i have written my ex until i am blue in the face. it does no good because you are in no position to "help him" at all. he will use any attempt you make to encourage a change in behavior against you. from your description of him, i would strongly suggest he is a narcissist. the answer to being involved with a narcissist? RUN!!! there is a great message board that deals with narcissism with accounts that will boggle your mind if you are not familiar with the syndrome. i don't think i'm supposed to list websites here, so if you want it, pm me and i will be happy to give you the information. please, in the meantime, do not send him another letter. all you are accomplishing in doing that is giving up one more piece of your own soul, and i promise you....you will regret that later. i know i did, still do in fact.

Nucking_Futs

01-06-05, 12:58 AM

In order to help be more supportive of a friend in AA I have started reading the AA big book. You can learn a lot about behaviour's from that book. The most important lesson I've learned is that I can NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT change anyone's behaviour but my own. You've fought the good fight, walk away and heal yourself and then work on a normal healthy relationship with SOMEONE ELSE. My point is you've done all you can and no one least of all yourself should place blame nor guilt on your head for his continued bad and hateful behaviours.

If you leave here...leave with the lesson that we are not perfect but most of us do try. big hugs.

Draga

01-06-05, 01:02 AM

:D That's My Futsy.......You guys know I tought Futs everything she knows :p

Nucking_Futs

01-06-05, 01:23 AM

aven spelng? *laughs hysterically*

aww you edited the post...that's cheating :p

Draga

01-06-05, 01:37 AM

Nana nana nana :p

siamgirl_66

01-07-05, 04:02 PM

I may have not felt the love with *him*

I sure do feel it with you all. Thanks so much for your concern and support.

Siam

wendybonsey

01-13-05, 08:27 AM

hi
i was married to a man who i believe is ADHD and was very controlling and i was not allowed to do anything (it felt) without his permission (even buying a chocolate bar).

we divorced about 7yrs ago and he is still controlling my life using the kids and my house to do it.

wendy

Nucking_Futs

01-13-05, 10:33 AM

Your welcome Siam

Wendy how exactly is he using your house and kids to control you? Not to be personal but we have all been thru our own personal hells and maybe one of us might have specific information when and if you get comfortable enough to go into more detail. Hugs for now, Cherity

wendybonsey

01-13-05, 02:26 PM

ok it is a very long story.

when we split we drew up an agreement that stated that until a certain date he would pay the mortgage on the house instead of child support(we were quite amicable at this time) and then after that date i was to take over the mortgage in my name (at the point of divorce how many of us are thinking of remarrying)or the house would have to be sold and the proceeds would be mine so i agreed. after a few years i did meet someone else and remarry. paul moved to scotland from england and so hadn't got a job and my ex was standing on the doorstep telling me how he wanted to 'give' us the mortgage and all paul would have to do was get a job that earned whatever amount. well paul got a job (which he hates) just so we could get the mortgage so we applied for a remortgage and we were 2weeks away from closing when all of a sudden there was a solicitors letter through my door that stated that he was no longer willing to let us have the mortgage and that we had to get a higher mortgage to pay for the house at asking price (which we couldn't afford and/or put the house that my mother-in-law is living in in joint names to protect the boys from paul running off with half the money from the house.

this was fair enough and we agreed that pauls house would be put in joint names.
then he found out that we were borrowing a bit extra to pay the fees and do some home improvement.
he decided this was not on and told us what he expected us to do with the money and if we didn't do it then he would not sign over the house. we explained what the extra money was for but to no avail. so he made me put the house on the market, he even spent £100+ to write a solicitors letter to say it was not on their website. During this time Brendan (my 11yr old listened in on a conversation i was having on the phone (i was in the kitchen he was in the hall) and got VERY VERY upset coz he didn't want to leave his home or friends etc. (my ex even pointed out for sale signs on houses that he said we should buy.)so i explained to him what was happening and that we were gonna fight to stay where we were. well i came up with a solution of a savings with investment which would more than cover pauls half of the house. so he wanted to know what the investment was how much we were gonna save who was gonna be trustee whether we were gonna reinvest the cash if so what in. on top of that he told me i HAD to get life insurance for £200000 over 15 years and any plans i made i.e this savings account he had to approve or the deal was off. if i didn't agree then he would force me to sell the house then take me to court to get half the money.
all of this was done 'in the best interest of the children'. i got all the information he wanted etc but then he decided it wasn't good enough. the HE came up with an idea that he would transfer the house in to mine and pauls name and even give us £10,000 to lessen the mortgage even more (as long as there was an agreement that paul could not get his hands on that money(fair enuff) or any interest saved by that money(bit more difficult) and as long as he never had to pay child support for the kids again. which would have caused mor hassles than it saved because in britain if for any reason you are unemployed the child support agency would make him pay support and then we would have to pay that money back to him. during all of this he had sat my children and told them that we were selling the house and having to move. so after a 18 months and £1100 of solicitors fees we are no further forward.

as for the kids he see's them when and if he feels like it and as long as it doesn't interefere with his plans.

at new year 2 years ago i got told that either i go and pick the kids up from perth train station (150 mile round trip) or the kids would be left with his mother in law either way he and his wife were going on holiday.
now he has left a well paying job and says he cant pick the kids up so if i want the kids to be happy and see their dad then i have to take them there otherwise he will only see them once a month.

sorry for the length of the post but i did tell you it was a LOOOONG story lol

wendy

Nucking_Futs

01-13-05, 02:52 PM

I'm not sure how it goes in your country but I'd pay the lawyer fee's and fight that greedy, selfish SOB to the death. First of all your kids should come first, then your new spouse but it sounds to me like the man has found a way to weasle his way into every aspect of your life and has taken control. Sometimes the best option is to fight. Is the house really worth all this emotional stress and resentment? It's a house and kids get past moving, you can make it a little easier by making your next home purchase close to your old home so they can keep the same friends and same school the only thing they are leaving behind is a choke hold.

wendybonsey

01-13-05, 04:03 PM

E-boy

01-14-05, 10:57 AM

I fully believe kids come first. However, in a normal relationship, many counselors will flat out tell you that the couple needs to maintain it's own needs and balance them against those of the children. Reason being, it is entirely too easy to lose the relationship focussing on the kids, and without that emotional support and mutual sense of purpose parenting suffers. Remember, part of what we want to teach our children is how one maintains a relationship. Parents who's needs are met and who are happy and engaged, do a better job parenting.

Naturally, there will always be situations where the children come first. In my last relationship I ran a distant third or fourth in my ex's priority chain. Which, oddly enough, never bothered me that much. Our children always came first, and I suppose that's why it didn't bother me. I think we would have done better by them if we had taken better care of each other. Sometimes, that just isn't possible though.

My new relationship is much better and she shares my new opinion on things.

Nucking_Futs

01-20-05, 11:21 AM

ok firstly the kids do come first before my new hubby he understands that (my new hubby that is). also at the time when brendan heard about it he ended up getting so upset that he ended up at the doctors with stress headaches because he didn't want to move. and at the end of day it doesn't matter where we live he is determined to make our life hell so i thought we're gonna be in hell we might as well be happy living there lol

wendy :D

I read my post over and ummm WOW did I ever get it wrong. Firstly I never meant anything derrogatory towards your New spouse it sounds to me like he has his priorities straight first the kids then you then himself. I mean that your Old hubby is an @$$ there is no other way to put it, he's a selfish, egotistical, maniacle, jack@$$!!!!! To put his kids thru hell just to get his selfish immature kicks really makes me mad :mad:. I just thought I had better clarify that up right away so we didn't have any misunderstandings.

Wendy, you bend a tree far enough and one of two things is going to happen it either snaps or it snaps back. I have a feeling your good at snapping back when it's really warranted and needed. I wish you the very best of luck and am here to listen if you just need to yell at someone or to just hear someone say your doing the best you can.

Hugs,
Cherity

RhapsodyInBlue

01-27-05, 03:51 PM

timh

01-27-05, 04:35 PM

I actually believe relationships should come first before the children. If parents make each other their top priority, then the flow on to the children's well being is inevitable.
I agree completely. I think this is what happened in our case. It happens so subtlely, before you know it your wondering what happened. Person #1 starts to do things without Person #2. Person #2 finds something else to fill the gap. Priorities start to conflict, when Person #1 wants to do something with Person #2. Person #1 then finds something else to fill their gap. So is the start of the downward spiral. Communication and intimancy are along for the ride too.

Your relationship with your partner should come before the children. The kids will survive. It will also teach them to be independent for themselves and hopefully set a good example along the way.

...Daria

01-28-05, 06:45 AM

THIS IS A YESS...
OK I would always give myself a guilt trip. He used to tell me. I don't understand why I hit you. I never hit anyone else in my life that I have loved especially a woman. I, of course, repsponded with the "but, why me???"

I always had that on my mind. Like man I really must be messed up. I don't deserve better. I need to fix it myself so that we can be happy. I ... I .. I.. ...
I AM THE PROBLEM!

nOOOOoooOO!
I found out I was not and I always think back to how I felt and realize my pain lies in myself and with ADD and not knowing about it or allowing myself to, I could not get out of depression modes and he always made me feel like I was guilty of all the problems in our relationship. I am now seeking help due to my recent discovery on ADD.

I recently asked him to seek help. (no response ... ):(
Here I am to add more...

I think back and my abuse actually started when my Grandmother beat me on a daily basis. My very first memory was I think when I was about 4. I remember staring at a toy monkey that was hanging on the wall and being scared of it because my Grandmother would say if I didn't listen, it would come get me in my sleep. I was so little. I think I was waiting to go to the store or something with her. She beat me every single day. She would bite me, burn me with cigarettes(very often), hit me with the stick of the broom, broke a bottle over my head once, bit me so hard at one time on my leg that I have no hair on that spot on my leg and you can see light nerves there, she pierced me with a hook one time on the inside of my leg, many things.. I wonder if that is what led me to stay in the relationship I had in the past with the father of my children. My mother also let herself be beaten often from former lovers and my dad.
Not good but this makes me wonder was I following in thier footsteps or letting myself be led by that. I was pregnant almost 7months the last time this man was allowed to hit me ever. He blackened my entire left eye and busted a vien or something on the side of my face. I covered it and he pulled my hands back and beat me horribly with his fist in the same spot continuously.
This was over 7 years ago I believe even more.. but I retaliated because I didnt want the police to take him but he was NOT going to touch me again. Took a deep frying pan and hit him over the head the next day when he thought I was in the kitchen making him a sandwich.

I am not saying, for any reason, that isthe way to handle it because I dont think two wrongs make a right.. But I know.. that "I" could NOT let this go on..

hope this was not too open and harsh.. but truth.......

..... and no, he still hasnt sought help.. but I have.

Nova

01-30-05, 02:57 PM

I'm working on choosing nice guys. I'm working on identifying the difference between being understanding someone who's going through a difficult time, as we all go through those, and just being an idiot who gets taken advantage of, or taken for granted.
Right now, I feel it best to not get involved with anyone other than just casual dating, until I have a handle on this.

Nucking_Futs

01-31-05, 07:30 AM

Not to open and harsh. Just a sad reality that many abused children move on to repeat the cycle. Unless, of course they are given the skills or shown the way by some very strong and incredible people. *raises glass to the ladies in the support forum*. The important thing is you know that wasn't right and you will not repeat the process because you deserve more, your kids deserve more and you KNOW IT!!!!

Captain Da Da

02-25-05, 02:59 PM

I come from a sexually and physically abusive past (my step-father who is out my life for years now).

I really try hard not to lose my temper, but failed recently... mind you I would never hit my fiancee, but I may as well have the way I yelled at her a couple of times. I have no excuse! I am currently working on my behaviour, by not raising my voice at all.

Coral Rhedd

02-25-05, 09:49 PM

Dear Captain Da Da,

I have read some of your previous posts and believe you to be an intelligent person. While I am sorry for what you have suffered, I know that you know that what isn't resolved carries over in some way or another. Too many men are sexually abused and this is not dealt with because there is a stigma against men being open about these problems. The number of boys sexually abused is only slightly behind the number of girls in incidence. I know of no more devastating abuse than sexual abuse. I hope you have found someone with whom you can talk concerning your experience.

It is courageous of you to share here.

Coral Rhedd

02-25-05, 09:57 PM

Not to open and harsh. Just a sad reality that many abused children move on to repeat the cycle. Unless, of course they are given the skills or shown the way by some very strong and incredible people. *raises glass to the ladies in the support forum*.
Futs you are correct that the trauma of abuse continues to cycle throught generation. Would you be surprised to know however that new studies show that those who are victimized do not that often become victimizers? (Relative to the general population.) Instead, they have trouble recognizing abusers when they meet them. They often marry them. Recent research shows that even children -- either male or female -- who have been sexually abused tend not to become abusers themselves. Harsh as it may seem, there is emerging evidence that there are predators among us who seek victims and abuse not because they themselves have been abused but because they can.

IMO, abuse is about the corruption of power which usually occurs in sociopathic individuals or at the least in people with strong sociopathic and narcissistic elements to their characters.

BlessedLady

02-27-05, 04:09 AM

I wasn't sure which post I would reply too first....but when I read this one..I knew it was where I should start. I'm referring to the post in this thread from timh posted on 12/14/04 at 8:51pm # 37
My 2nd husband was diagnoised as a child with ADD he was put on meds...but one day decided he didn't want to take them any longer so he threw them away & didn't take them again until he was app 42 yrs old. He had been unable to keep a job because he would "pop off" at his bosses or forget the correct procedure to use or lose his temper, throw his tools down & walk off....he was never responsible for whatever went wrong, it was always some one elses fault. On the flip side, he was never late to work, went in early and/or stayed late if needed or asked to, he never stole tools, money, ect from a company or coworker, he would work through lunch & breaks without complaining. He would do his job & not stand around talking, laughing & in general wasting his time & his employers money. Some of these things are "his version" but I spoke with several of his employers who wanted to "keep him on" needless to say he was unaware of these conversations...until he would get fired & when he started saying a bunch of negative bad things about his boss(s) I would then tell him all they had done to keep from having to fire him.

Prior to getting back on the ADD meds..he had never read a book....an entire book, he never wrote letters or kept journals...it was all I could do to get him to sign a Happy Birthday card for one of the kids or other family member.

For about 1 or 2 yrs off & own there was physical abuse...& yes there was emotional & mental abuse in a timeframe that was longer than the physical & the damage done with this was much deeper & longer lasting than the physical.

For app 10+ yrs he was unable to work due to physical disabilities & required medical care at home & due to my training & work the drs suggested I stay home & take care of him..which I did, it was the right thing to do & this I do not regret + we had 6 children.

The above is a brief background or setting if you will that leads to the purpose of this reply. From the first tablet of ADD meds he took at 42 yrs old I observed in him the absence of the "temper" that was so plainly there when the physical, mental & emotional abuse occurred. He would read books...it might take him a while, but he stuck with it. He started keeping a journal & writting in it once to several times a day. He was finally able to return to work & it was here that the difference between no meds & proper meds became so clear. The first job interview in 13 yrs he went on, he got the job & he was doing things his Specialists in his physical disabilities told us he could never go back to (:) for this God deserves the credit:) ) he kept this job for well over a year....until the project was completed & the project was local but the company worked all over the country & they asked him to stay with them & go on to the next project. But we talked about it and even though we both knew the marriage had been over long ago...we had 2 teenage daughters at home & he choose to stay at home until they finished school. For those of you that are wondering...once he started the meds... the abusive behavior stopped we got along fine..seperate bedrooms, ect ...we became more like best friends.

Several years back a friend of mine who specializes in treatment of children & adults with ADD told me a study had been done on Battered/Abused Women & their Husbands...and that the percentage of men that committed domestic violence diagnoised with ADD was high...and that with proper medication & counceling and/or other therapy that as long as they stayed on this path their abuseive behavior didn't return.

I will add more to this thread when I can.
Who all can give me feedback on this?
BlessedLady

Coral Rhedd

03-01-05, 02:03 PM

Blessed Lady, in a way, you have offered us a success story. Just goes to show that treatment works and that if people keep searching for the answers, sometimes they actually find them.

I have known for sometime that ADHD can be a component of violent behavior. I believe my father had ADHD and I suffered physical abuse as a consequence of his anger. He has since died but the self esteem problems and the dislike of authority he gave me lives on.

I see lots of posts in this forum that are sort of rah-rah ADDers. I realize that the purpose of such postings are to be supportive and that's great, but being realistic matters too. I think the more we acknowledge the good, the bad, and the ugly of ADD/ADHD, the more insight we will gain and we will be better able to help each other.

BlessedLady

03-01-05, 06:28 PM

I too suffered from physical abuse as a consequence of my fathers anger & to make matters worse he was an alcoholic..of course as I was growing up I had no idea what ADHD was. I remember my step-mother telling me that he would get up @ 2am & go in his office & work(he was self employed) & she would ask him why didn't he come back to bed & go back to sleep & she said he just always said "there's so much to do and so little time to do it." Shortly after his death she told me he was like "a driven motor". At that time none of my children had been diagnoised with ADHD and so it didn't "register" with me. But the dr that treated my 3 kids with ADHD, and also diagnoised & treated me..... had been a friend of my fathers. When he told me they had been friends I made a comment about the drinking & what I believed to be behind it & this sweet dear man said "no honey, he drank because he had ADHD also, but back then we didn't know there was a connection." My father had been dead over 13 yrs when I was diagnoised & this dr was 80 at the time of this conversation. He said my father was "self-medicating" with the alcohol because it was the only was he knew to "slow himself down." After he & my step-mom had been married about a yr...she called me & asked me if I thought he might be an alcholic..(those that have no knowledge of this disease can't comprehend how very well one can hide their drinking) I told my step-mom i thought she knew & she was being honest when she said she didn't....but she told my father he had to make a choice her or the alcohol....I am very Proud to say my father choose her. He started going to meetings at their church & she attended the meetings for the spouses (I think it's Al A Non, I know the one for teenagers with alcoholic parent(s) is Al A Teen- or use to be) he never took another drink.

Since we are on this topic & I've got a few extra minutes (I always wonder what I forgot to do when I have time left at the end of the day) I will add to this thread now as I said I would a few days ago.

My first husband was an alcoholic & was also a daily user of marijuana....I was unaware of the abuse of these substances until after we were married.(I was 21 & he was 22)...I was also unaware that things like walls, doors, furniture, ect could "make you run into them" know what I mean ? We had only been married a few months...and then there was a baby on the way, I already had a daughter from a previous relationship...he was an alcoholic also. I lived with the worst of it...being stupid & naive at that age & believeing that the baby would give him "what he needed to be sober & stay sober." He had a job at a local VA hospital....as a councelor working with the vets that had been hospitalized due to their alcoholism. And we were in marriage counceling with a councelor at the hospital. For several weeks..almost a month..he would beat me until I passed out, then throw cold water in my face bring me too & do it all over again. Finally 1 day i gave him 10 cents to use a pay phone ( this was a very very long time ago) and I told him to go & call his mother because I didn't mind raising children from infancy but I'd be ****** if I was gonna raise one from adulthood. Back then calling the police was a waste of time when it came to this particular matter..I called them when he told me he was going to kill me & they said there's nothing we can do until he "really hurts you"...they never answered my question of exactly how hurt that was...but I sure wasn't gonna wait around & find out. He never came in that house again. I had a beautiful, normal, healthy & happy baby girl. He never even saw her until she was almost 16. My husband wanted to adopt her & even though he had paid maybe a total of $ 150.00- 3 checks each for $ 50.00- & never laid eyes on her...he still had to sign the papers. I called his parents house, told them what I wanted & they gave me his phone #, he had moved to another state many yrs prior to this. The first time I called he wasn't in & I spoke with his 3rd wife...she didn't even tell me her name..the conversation was only app 2 mins...but as I was about to hang up she said "do you mind if I ask you something?"...somehow I already knew what her question was going to be..she said "did he ever hit you when ya'll were married"...it broke my Heart to know he was doing to her what he had done to me, she was blind & due to that believed she had to stay with him in order to survive..they also had a daughter. I told her.."he didn't just hit me he tried to kill me more than once.&q