If Mr Crosby is unavailable, may I call on you sometimes? cute, of course, but I don't know dootskies...neil young was always good for wallowing...
Have you listened to David's son's music?
I tend to listen to music more for sharing pain? Like feeling the pain along with the song and then I feel better. gotta pay more attention to that.
I love all kinds of music, Chick Corea... oopps getting off topic...
ciao

tam :confused: Could be impulses how would one know the difference? impulses have wave attributes. physiologically speaking, whatever is triggering the transmission needs to stop and pause before sending another transmission. That action: on,off,on,off, along with rise time and fall time would translate into a sinusoidal wave. But this is over time, so it blows my example.
Some kind of force creates a wave in the ocean, the impulse of the wave---- dissipates over time.
Time is a product of mind, not self. There is a difference. The mind is what logically traverses memory and coordinates the data. The self is what is happening instantaneously. The mind is what pulls our previously stored pain and it's the mind that projects it into the future as some true outcome. The pain stops when the mind is switched off and the self takes over in the present.
In the present, the self is not bound to history or future - it can go to,............ somewhere. I'm still working on this. [*I grin - cuz I'm stuck*]

MAYBE - it's like this: The self, given it is in the present, along with everything 'else' in existance, can 'skip' through or along the various points in our static rrreality - which really reflects RRReality.
Perhaps that's why the self can 'share' these points with other selves...??? wow, this is raw. Not other selves, like ourself, but other entities. Like with a dog, sharing some points in common. Or siblings, or mates who have influenced each other's models to reflect the same points in RRReality... Or even some random stranger. Or even an event of some sort via that group conciousness [I just can't pull that term outta my head] ?
The model being the stage? Perhaps I've only verbalized the same concept in another way...from a different direction. Which is good when a conclusion is reached multi-laterally. Am I making up words and definitions now????


The science channel always has interesting content, and surprisingly pertinent to the addf topics.
Like Toumai - we are more like Toumai, the oldest hominid so far, than we are like great apes.
We'll see when they dig up more stuff around the same site. I think they also guessed that maybe Toumai mated with not so smart apes or whatever, and that's why relatively contemporary apes, et al, have similar traits. What is that, reverse speciation?
Rats are used for experiments because they have some similar systems to humans. And cows and pigs for ligaments and insulin, etc.
I do know that 13D to me is still in ambiguities domain, along with the origin of man.

There are a lot of comments being thrown about the internet about humanity evolving way more quickly than ever thought possible. The proof or an indication of rapid evolution is like Tammy's promiscuous proteins.
And how fast does RNA adapt after conception? To form the entire body in a much shorter time than the actual birth. my recall of words is going down the toilet...

Rock the boat, don't rock the boat, baby...
my boat's been tipped over many a time.
So far, I have avoided sinking. Sure have taken on a LOT of water, though.
Rocking the boat has never made me feel alive.
Vindicated perhaps, if I was correct in thinking the boat needed rocking.
And really pretty stupid if I was wrong and it didn't.
I didn't just feel stupid and wrong, but I found myself UNEMPLOYED. And not just once, but way toooooo many times. In fact, I've been wrong enough times to give me some trepidation in jumping in before checking.
Actually, fear is an excellent deterrent - especially when there ain't no boat.
The abosulute worst is when the boat NEEDS rocking but they choose to dump you overboard instead!
To start a-rockin' just for rockin's sake, nahhhh, nicht, not my gig. but I do look forward to getting rid of the fear.

Savants...this keeps nagging at me. The mechanism that allows them to have that particular trait, seems to correlate with us being able to accomodate the big picture.
I wonder if there are savants that aren't autistic or mentally challenged?

We all agree that evolution has occurred to get us up to this point.

We all kinda' agree that there must have been a transition between forms.

Just as Homo sapiens subsp. sapiens is a double take on the speciation of man occurring alongside the development of a mind ...

So we can see that evolution of mind represents a stage in evolution.

Evolution of body occurred in stages --- the bug dodn't kinda' grow a head and legs and arms an'all on the day it evolved out of bugville ... evolution of physical form was gradual.

In much the same way - why would we ever believe that evolution of mind was going to happen just the once ... and then call it a day.

The evolution of mind - as Stabile has taught us - is as readily understandable as the evolution of physical form ... the only difference being DNA change ->- physical change has switched for logical structure change ->- mental change ... ... ...

For sure --- if we've larger mental capacities now --- then for sure ... rocking the boat --- pressing the pedal to the mental --- is kinda' what we'd need to do ...

So - that kinda' all makes sense - so where does the dissenting voice keen to push the ADDers back into a disordered box and seal the lid --- where does he diverge from these ideas --- would be great if we can identify why there isn't an immediate take up of these ideas ... ... ...

So - as far as I can see - near everything comes down to the single issue of whether the mind can be accurately conceptualized as a logical structure --- built on a fixed repeating pattern ... is this the stumbling block?

heck ... and if it's a little use ... I believe that the pattern of neuroplasticity which E-boy described earlier in this thread --- man/dog ... is repeated in other scenarios --- and that for instance ... burning out our taste buds - or sense of smell --- might result in similar alterations to mind --- in loss of components of the brain which sense the environment --- making way for ...maybe???... deeper cognitive structures ...

...burning out the taste buds --- a method --- heavy on the tabasco guys ...

...dried red chilli sprinkled liberally on cornflakes is a sure-fire sign of burn-out ...:-)

SB.

From Kv's thread above this one ... (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=321405&postcount=1)

"Climate change is happening at an ever increasing rate. We are dangerously close and need to curb CO2 emmissions. It may pass the tiping point where increasing temps will become self sustaining. The melting of the poles reduces the amount of solar energy is reflected back into space and so raising the temp. Rise in sea temp may release trapped CO2 from the bottom of the ocean, increasing the green house effect. Hope we don't end up like Venus 250 degrees C and raining sulphuric acid."

So Just 1 reason why we need to understand the mind of man - the image of acid rain falling on our kids and their kids ...

... that's all ... and yeah - the single reason why I continue to push - and will push harder than I ever thought I could --- if we understand mind, (portion removed) and accept the responsibility which comes with an understanding of our subservience to environmental context then we stand a chance - otherwise - really ... we're on our way out - sure after a lot of pain we'll probably emerge - a small fraction of us with some new characteristic --- lil' 'ole emergence giving us the capacity to transduce energy without food, or fly, or skin/behaviour like a snake or maybe separation from our physical selves ... hard to tell and all ... and impossible to tell if it'll be better --- but at least for now - I want the image of soft Summer winds and multiple shades of green - and seas of blue --- and natural sounds and the mind at peace --- that's what I want - not for me - but for the little 'uns ... and to re-iterate ... the Stabile theories buy us one thing --- (portion removed) - a newfound responsibility - an understanding of what is important.

It ain't blatant consumerism ... we're eating our own heads offa' their stalks --- geeze ... I once mentioned the only way to climb the ladder - is to burn it ... how'd we ever **** it all up so big-time ... it used to be --- please ... could still be so pretty ... ... ... we're wired to chill on a pretty rock ... not some acid desert spinning - 4 billion years down ... 4 billion left to go ... before our favourite fusion reactor is decommissioned ... ... ... yeah ... black hole sun ... but 4 billion sounds somewhat better than - I dunno' 100 years ... to tipping point --- emergence ... lil' 'ole emergence works on multilple levels - after all ... ... ... not just in our head ... nopey - that'd be the universal laws operating universally ... ... ...

s.

oopsy ...
thanks hf ... s.

Tams - what kinda' autoimmune info are you looking for?

Autoimmine specific area of interest:
Idiotype Cross-Reaction - Idiotypes are antigenic epitopes found in the antigen-binding portion (Fab) of the immunoglobulin molecule. Plotz and Oldstone presented evidence that autoimmunity can arise as a result of a cross-reaction between the idiotype on an antiviral antibody and a host cell receptor for the virus in question. In this case, the host-cell receptor is envisioned as an internal image of the virus, and the anti-idiotype antibodies can react with the host cells

Because:
Autoimmune cause by viral exposure, either hepatic or a kin to herpes 1. Decreasing heat tolerance ,increasing susceptibility to yeast and allergies running amuck, which I prevent outrageous histamine reactions via chemicals / anti-histamines (they make me so tired) and yeast infections via altering my PH slightly to the base side of life / aka baking soda (sodium bicarb). Calculated lets see what happens when I do this but PH dabbling has such a small margin of error as too far is very un-good (cure becomes worse than problem = dead) but I tend to be physically sensitive . . . .I also tend to do chemistry rather well tooooo. An unorthodox but effective approach . . . My doctor thought it to be rather ingenious idea but worries I can only go so far with such an alteration.

Thought he would join in the let see what happens when . . . .ye ole educated shot in the dark so to speak . . . . .I am to begin anti-viral therapy soon as I am in no professional position to have my immune system knocked out unless I would like to be invaded by 1001 infectious pathogens by next week. Health care can be so unhealthy some times. Can’t do construction or out side work in Texas heat have few money making alternatives left. That is a rock and a hard place is it not?

which begs the question ...
why do some seem to want to defer to others?

Haven’t broken the context of the daily . . . earn, spend, earn, spend, cycle yet. Perhaps time is not yet a true concept as in meaning to the limitation thereof. Peaking above the cycle of routine life often occurs when life becomes more than routine such as an impending end to come.


Only then do some wonder why are we here? To what reason did we give for our existence during the time we had “living”. Time and energy spent so we could prepare to be old in luxury . . . .Hmmmm what happens when old isn’t guaranteed? (or possibility)

This type of drastic shaking shouldn’t be a requirement and perhaps for some it doesn’t have to be:

~synergy with environment and a redefinition of what we consider to be important

There is life out side the box (routine of life). . . there is more than “me” in my own reality there is “we” as in our reality. Connected interconnection of shared internal states, yet all individuals retaining individuality . . . . as in harmony not competition, difference without conflict because there is understanding that in RRReaily there is no box.




Hey...welcome to the trusted 'version' of the 'world'...
It takes effort to 'rock the boat'...doncha know that ???
Effort that most aren't willing to take a chance on...

Once I read a sign on a women’s desk that read :
“Well behaved women don’t make history”

Perhaps there was a point to be made.




Actually, fear is an excellent deterrent - especially when there ain't no boat.

This is when learning to swim is an excellent skill indeed.

Gary can not “do boats” with captains but he doesn’t starve he makes his own living he made up his job and has no one to answer to except him self then again he has no pre-conceived notions, very few fears, he sees only present opportunity makes his gig up as he goes along. . . .an uneducated man by most standards . . . .I mean he can read and write (he spells better than I do) :o He is ADHD la natural in own habitat. Annoying as this men can be yet living proof we don’t need boats we only perceive that we do.


FEAR – False Realities Appearing Real.
Fear – standing in center of busy highway as in getting run over by a large fast moving trucks. :eek:

The latter is common sense and is necessary for survival especially in larger cities, the former is why we live in a world of woes! They appear the same but are very different.




Some kind of force creates a wave in the ocean

Gravity




Time is a product of mind, not self. There is a difference. The mind is what logically traverses memory and coordinates the data. The self is what is happening instantaneously. The mind is what pulls our previously stored pain and it's the mind that projects it into the future as some true outcome. The pain stops when the mind is switched off and the self takes over in the present.

Okay try to above in reverse you are correct but mirror scale . . . .mirror image sdawkcab.

Like this:
Time is a product of brain, left to be exact. Think of a grand past event. Can you still envision your self there? Can you smell the air, still hear the sounds, see the events? Memory is without time limitation mind is non-linier, self is perception. Perception is two divisional self perception and other perception; they are never the same nor are they equal. By the way self perception is also non-linier where as other perception is.

(Time = anti-time)

(energy = potential energy)

(matter = anti-matter)

(“+” = “-“ )

Time happens in space; anti-time doesn’t.

Some thing like that.




maybe separation from our physical selves

This happens any way . . . one way or another. It is a natural phenomena just like being born (or conceived) is. The latter has to occur before the former is possible = they are interconnected.




It ain't blatant consumerism

That is for sure but good naming of the box that keeps many in circular cycle, truth their aint no box it is all in the mind-set. . . . . there is life out side the box.



I do look forward to getting rid of the fear.

Most time we think of outer reality coming in (information) but we do not perceive the internal reality moving outward.(direction)

A repeat of part of my response in the “trapped” thread . . .a true experience.

***~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~ ***~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~


I learned the ADD way about feeling trapped: via experience:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~You are as trapped as you perceive your self to be. ~

I felt trapped and dependant on Gary even as recent as my membership start time. He betrayed me in a bad way about two years ago, I became one pi**ed off, angry ADHDer, decided I wasn’t going to be dependant or trapped by him any more. The moment I decided that I was no longer trapped or helpless I wasn’t…….. I had to feel free before I began making choices like some one who was free. The choices allowed the internal rrreality of independence to become the external RRReality that exist today . . .now it is he that often borrows money from me even through he makes more! (I manage mine better)


It is all in the perception ---> which steers attitude ---> that influences direction !!!

Heya Tams ...
yes - our immune system has only the immunoglobulin (which docks onto the bad bugs) - and triggers clearance -- and the MHC/TCR - the interaction between a bit of a bug - chewed up in a cell - and presented on the cell surface - within MHC --- awaiting recognition by a T cell receptor.

The recognition of bugs is reliant upon a massive repertoire of immunoglobulins - each capable of binding some unique protein - and a massive repertoire of T cell receptors - each capable of binding some specific MHC restricted (held) protein fragment.
A specific immunoglobulin or T cell receptor is selected on its recognition of a foreign molecule (rendered more specific by somatic mutation - that's kinda' mutation 'real-time') ->- clonally expands ->- and thereby we have an army of effective soldiers - selected for their capacity to de-bug us.

However ... the problem ... bugs often mimic some part of our machinery in order to gain access to the cell --- take HIV for instance --- it grabs ahold of CD4 - one of our real important cell surface proteins.

So - if a molecule expressed by a bug - binds to some component of our machinery - it's possible that an immune molecule might bind to the native molecule (in man) - which binds to that native molecule (in man) - which has been co-opted by the bug.

So ... human 'a' ligand binds human 'b' receptor
Virus 'c' receptor binds human 'b' receptor
Immunoglobulin/TCR 'd/e' binds virus 'c' receptor
However ... problems ... when Immunoglobulin/TCR 'd/e' also happens to bind human 'a' ligand --- sequestering it away.

The idiotype is the all important bit of an immunoglobulin (often IgG is the Ig of study) which binds to an antigen.
If 'a' binds 'b' an antibody with idiotype ie shape of either the bit of 'a' or the shape of the bit of 'b' which interact (usually only a small part of proteins) --- will cause 'a' not to bind to 'b'.
If 'a' is an enzyme - then an antibody with idiotype to the working bit of the enzyme will inhibit the enzyme --- it'll bind to enzyme - and close off the bits of the enzyme which must bind to substrate to catalyse the reaction.

Anti-idiotype antibodies are raised to the idiotypes described above ---
in the case (directly above) - an anti-idiotype antibodies might potentially be able to replicate the functionality of the enzyme against which the primary idiotypic ab was raised ... ... ...

so we end up with bio-activity in an immunoglobulin - which is kinda' desirable - because there are now multiple ways of stepping up production of antibodies --- certainly easier than generating whole proteins - correctly folded and with appropriate bio-activity.

So ... :-) ... all a long way of explaining exactly what you've described - the autoimmune reaction as being an accident which occurs on account of our immune system reacting against some bug - the bug disappearing --- leaving us with bio-molecules which're sufficiently similar to self - to degrade self. And the idiotype as the bit which defines specificity of interaction - noting that this specificity can best be understood as a shape --- think a lock and a key - and before you know it --- you've ...
->-a dominant mechanism for enzymatic function->-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock-and-key_model_(enzyme)

sb.

the bug disappearing --- leaving us with bio-molecules which're sufficiently similar to self - to degrade self.

Yea but not all “bugs” disappear, this was my docs thinking is some viruses hang around and “play dead” but aren’t really they are still there and as long as they are there our bodies produce these anti-bodies.

Sense what is it viruses have only one “copy” of ???? (escapes me just new) but they can’t reproduce without a host which is how they create the us like looking proteins that cause the autoimmune reaction! I think I probably have it close enough you might be able to ID what it is I am trying to say!

For sure - viruses which awaken.
From earlier in the thread we jumped into viruses which grow rampantly and which kill host --- and their evolution into a kinda' relationship - not synergistic - for sure, but permitting host survival - which is certainly better (from our point of view).
The virus has a single 'haploidy' genome and encodes a minimal set of genes to kinda' get in -replicate- and get out (of host).
I once had to present the entry into and exit from a cell - of HIV - specifically looking at CD4/gp120 (entry) and HIV protease (exit).
gp120 is the HIV molecule mimicking CD4-ligand.


I'm struck by Stabile's statement which was that 'if we were to eradicate all viruses from the face of the planet - *right now* - by **now** (a few minutes later) - they'd be back' ... ... ...

... this idea presents viruses as a form of favourable chemical reaction - that is - as long as their chemical constituents are around and about - alongside suitable hosts ... ... ... they cannot be lost from our environment ---

... any ideas on this?

A chemical reaction occurs - from - say left ->- right - when the left hand side is favourable for the transition - certain levels of the substrates on the left, temperature ...etc... --- and viruses - or the virulent tendency certainly expresses the kinda' 'will to live' - or phrased as a virus might put it - 'the irresistible pull of the replication process from a thermodynamic perspective' --- surely the virus is doing nothing more than 'rolling down a hill' ...?...

Why is this important?

Back to the question of
- 'the drive to replicate?'
- the philosophical link between the inanimate and the animate ... the chemical reaction - and biological reaction (life) ... ... ...
... with the virus as either and neither
- because 'man' is a 'virus' of sorts - is scaling the same pattern of evolution of 3,4,13 [earlier on in this thread] ... ... ... and that we ~may~ be able to learn from the pattern of evolution of the virus - learn how exactly the virus transformed through evolution - into its most evolved form - prior to 'moving on' ... ... ...

.. for some reason - my mind sticks on the observation that the 3-4-13 pattern taking in icosahedral - helical - complex viruses ... encapsulates the complexity of many - most --- ?nearly all? of the viruses - apart from HIV.
I don't think that HIV fits into any of those 3 subdivisions - I wonder why?
Maybe I'm wrong, or the structure just hasn't been solved ... anyhow ...

...scary things - the viruses...

SB.

life or not alive this is an imponted one when we talk about viruses if there dead but just molciacs that have repoctuion to devided ....make more them selfs an cos destrunbions to the host or even kill host to wip out all viruses would halt elovion cos elov seems to have stated with them in smoe form or another ,,,as you say sb uk most time a vis wont kill host cos its needs it an thses who do,,,may have not done so in the past.....hiv i think is partley man made....thats just my vife on it its way to compixe even for evol on its own ,,,,,even tese visces that have dna rna thats so complix as to say there more anmail than vroic thats the qution ,,,cos if you look at rabees the V,,,, makes you fear water cos water would work agastiont it meaning that they reporamme your mind in some manner dose this mean there alive.....KNOWS WHAT I THINK dorm.....

Hey Dorm - check out Stephenson's (Neal) (fictional) Snow Crash (virus).
'Stephenson compares this form of infection to that of HSV' ... both computer and real virus ... ... ... wouldn't that be a thing?

SB.

I'm struck by Stabile's statement which was that 'if we were to eradicate all viruses from the face of the planet - *right now* - by **now** (a few minutes later) - they'd be back' ... ... ...

Yeah viruses and cock roaches are virtually indestructible! If we had their adaptable ability . . . . . .


I don't think that HIV fits into any of those 3 subdivisions - I wonder why?
Maybe I'm wrong, or the structure just hasn't been solved ... anyhow ...


HIV does seem to replicate like other viruses, but how it replicates as in what that makes it deadly ( please correct if I am in error) I don’t know it's also kind of like the plague there is a sub-section (3%) who are genetically immune to HIV, as HIV can not replicate in their immune cells (forget exact cell name) system by attachment like most according to a documentary I saw a month or two back.

Hmmmm It doesn’t have the same “durability” if I remember correctly . . .not especially air born dies off rather quicly when exposed . . . it has been a while so HIV memory could be mixed in with tinker toys, and model train glue.

HIV the missing link between the common cold and cancer? (combined to look like my fifth grade teacher who was also the missing link of the sort who could have stayed missing) I do see what you men about the “funny fit” . . . .I may have to actually attempt to read some thing biological in nature besides Gary - :rolleyes:

I would rather be doing this [tag-team] more than - well, many things. But I am too far behind or there are too many questions for me to do justice to most.

SB: would be great if we can identify why there isn't an immediate take up of these ideas If we knew this, maybe we'd know why we were put into the box in the first place...

SB: So - as far as I can see - near everything comes down to the single issue of whether the mind can be accurately conceptualized as a logical structure --- built on a fixed repeating pattern ... is this the stumbling block?
built on a fixed repeating pattern - why do you say that? fixed per mind? Does it matter what actually lead to an emergence?
SB: burning out our taste buds - or sense of smell --- might result in similar alterations to mind --- in loss of components of the brain which sense the environment --- making way for ...maybe???... deeper cognitive structures ...
deeper congnitive structures to compensate for the loss of sensors? the push to evolve deeper structures while pushing to remove senses... as the mind emerges=evolves, the physical goes away=emerges as speciation...

Tammy: Health care can be so unhealthy some times. Can’t do construction or out side work in Texas heat have few money making alternatives left. That is a rock and a hard place is it not? yes, similar to my rock... I was faced with not being able to be the 'crash dummy' for son #3's football teams as they got older anymore - because of the HCV - just in case...
Tammy: yet living proof we don’t need boats we only perceive that we do you're right.
T:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Some kind of force creates a wave in the ocean </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Gravity
yes and thermodynamics are the root cause of the currents. I found this study: Black Hole Thermodynamics and Two-Dimensional Dilaton Gravity Theory (http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=application%2Fpdf&identifier=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Ahep-th%2F9910244) string theory and it's connection to thermodynamics and quantum physics.
SB: ~synergy with environment and a redefinition of what we consider to be important
I read somewhere that THAT is the primary reason for war - fights - misunderstandings, etc. Not considering what is important to the other side.
T: Like this: kvrrd in red
Time is a product of brain, left to be exact. Think of a grand past event. Can you still envision your self there? Can you smell the air, still hear the sounds, see the events? yes... Memory is without time limitation almost as if the timestamp on the event got warped... mind is non-linier, self is perception. Perception is two divisional self perception and other perception; they are never the same nor are they equal. other perception is interpreted by self, no mind... By the way self perception is also non-linier where as other perception is. yes, we revert to linear to relate to the external linear nature of whatever we're perceiving, and translate and store it non-linearly
yes, like that!

SB and T: or better SB&T: Yea but not all “bugs” disappear, this was my docs thinking is some viruses hang around and “play dead” but aren’t really they are still there and as long as they are there our bodies produce these anti-bodies.
viruses hide out in bone marrow - like herpes in the spinal column. Triggers are required to activate 'em. I remember reading "The Microbe Hunters" as a kid - my Mom worked as a microchemist in microbiology and eventually as a biochemist.

SB: I'm struck by Stabile's statement which was that 'if we were to eradicate all viruses from the face of the planet - *right now* - by **now** (a few minutes later) - they'd be back' ... ... ...

... this idea presents viruses as a form of favourable chemical reaction - that is - as long as their chemical constituents are around and about - alongside suitable hosts ... ... ... they cannot be lost from our environment ---

... any ideas on this?
fast mutating RNA in viruses has to be faster than the host. we should all be so adaptable... Retroviruses, like HIV, have the highest mutation rate. Ribavirin may cause a virus to mutate beyond it's 'tipping point' so that the genetic information degrades beyond being useful.

SB: - because 'man' is a 'virus' of sorts - is scaling the same pattern of evolution of 3,4,13 [earlier on in this thread] ... ... ... and that we ~may~ be able to learn from the pattern of evolution of the virus - learn how exactly the virus transformed through evolution - into its most evolved form - prior to 'moving on' ... ... ...
3+1+6 + 2 as bridges=12; or 3+1+4+4 + 1 as a bridge = 13 so it's the infinite # of universes, side by side, that is preferred?

http://www.gsbs.utmb.edu/microbook/ch048.htm
Viral genomes undergo genetic change by mutation and by recombination. Recombination may be either intramolecular or, among viruses with divided genomes, by reassortment. Mutation in RNA viruses may be extremely rapid because there is no proof-reading mechanism for RNA polymerases, as there is for DNA polymerases. This situation is compounded in the retroviruses, for there is no proof-reading mechanism for the reverse transcriptase either. Most of these mutations result in non-viable phenotypes. Whether the genetic changes lead to emergence of an altered phenotype depends on natural selection, which may occur within the infected cell, during spread of virus in the body, or the transmission of the virus from one host to the next.
For the practicing physician, virus evolution may appear to be an academic matter, because evolutionary changes usually occur over a time scale that is long compared with human life. However, sometimes genetic changes in viruses may occur rapidly as a result of evolutionary pressure. For instance, the highly virulent myxoma virus introduced into Australia to control the wild rabbit population evolved in a few years to a much more attenuated strain, enabling infected rabbits to survive for weeks instead of days, thereby increasing chances for transmission. Among influenza viruses, antigenic variation evolves toward decreased affinity for preexisting neutralizing antibodies during the course of an outbreak. Periodically, pandemics of influenza occur (most recently in 1957 and 1968), due to the spread of reassortant viruses with a novel hemagglutinin antigen. Because survival of a virus depends largely on its ability to circulate among its natural hosts, natural selection tends to favor those viruses that are better transmitted (usually less virulent), have a lower susceptibility to antibody, and have a greater ability to persist. Also, the ability of the virus to produce reactions that promote excretion, such as coughing and sneezing in respiratory infections and diarrhea in many enteric infections, is likely to be retained.

Contemporary society seems to be experiencing an increased development of new serotypes of several kinds of respiratory and enteric viruses, because of the evolutionary potential afforded by the human population explosion and the great increase in human mobility world-wide. Evolution allows influenza to remain potentially the most important of all human viral diseases (see Ch. 58). Genetic reassortment and exchange of influenza viruses between humans and animals, producing antigenic shift, periodically introduce new viruses to the human population; mutation and selection, producing antigenic drift, accounts for year-to-year variations in influenza A subtypes.
http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/86/11/3109

It has been previously shown that the majority of human immunodeficiency<SUP> </SUP>virus type 1 (HIV-1)-infected splenocytes can harbour multiple,<SUP> </SUP>divergent proviruses with a copy number ranging from one to<SUP> </SUP>eight. This implies that, besides point mutations, recombination<SUP> </SUP>should be considered as an important mechanism in the evolution<SUP> </SUP>of HIV within an infected host. To explore in detail the possible<SUP> </SUP>contributions of multi-infection and recombination to HIV evolution,<SUP> </SUP>the effects of major microscopic parameters of HIV replication<SUP> </SUP>(i.e. the point-mutation rate, the crossover number, the recombination<SUP> </SUP>rate and the provirus copy number) on macroscopic characteristics<SUP> </SUP>(such as the Hamming distance and the abundance of n-point mutants)<SUP> </SUP>have been simulated in silico. Simulations predict that multiple<SUP> </SUP>provirus copies per infected cell and recombination act in synergy<SUP> </SUP>to speed up the development of sequence diversity. Point mutations<SUP> </SUP>can be fixed for some time without fitness selection. The time<SUP> </SUP>needed for the selection of multiple mutations with increased<SUP> </SUP>fitness is highly variable, supporting the view that stochastic<SUP> </SUP>processes may contribute substantially to the kinetics of HIV<SUP> </SUP>variation in vivo.


I wonder if there is a time limit to editing a post? I think I hold the record here....

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,66198,00.html
T: genetically immune to HIV, as HIV can not replicate in their immune cells (forget exact cell name) system All those with the highest level of HIV immunity share a pair of mutated genes -- one in each chromosome -- that prevent their immune cells from developing a "receptor" that lets the AIDS virus break in. If the so-called CCR5 receptor -- which scientists say is akin to a lock -- isn't there, the virus can't break into the cell and take it over.

wow ccr5 knew it was something like that .....yes i figerd that alongtime befor anything was said that more retor vices live in the main vicse but i think there resons are totaled by the main vrice so it can confuiiss or cos more porblems as it dose it job ....soooo they repataickated so fast whats rthe speed ofve repationcton????/ an why would rep so fast cos any relly porblem ????......id though our bodes could cope with far more ......

Hey Dorm - check out Stephenson's (Neal) (fictional) Snow Crash (virus).
'Stephenson compares this form of infection to that of HSV' ... both computer and real virus ... ... ... wouldn't that be a thing?

SB. yes i saw a film once about the same thing it be intresting an it will happen sooner or later thanks same as in robcop dretivesas ....was great dorm
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

ccr5 ... also implicated in asthma/allergies ... hmm ...

Recently, the analysis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15965616&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum) of the cytokines in the serum of the persistently infected seronegative women revealed that the latter hypo-expresses the cytokine IL-4. Since the molecular events during HIV-1 infection are associated with a marked increase in the levels of IL-4 and IgE in the sera of the infected individuals, it suggests that AIDS is an allergy.

sb.

Thanks, SB. This ( the ccr5 link in the previous post) helps explain the complexity of the wtRSV and IL-4 connection somewhat - indirectly - as well.

oh-oh - look at this:

Attractive couples produce more girls - Research at the London ... (http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/27608) <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=j>Research at the London School of Economics indicates physically attractive couples are 26 percent more likely to produce daughters than sons.
www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/27608 - 14k -



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

intresting so adids might be an anllagy well its one the badest then if thats the case whys they not come with a cure for this or even made this contontion as we have here?????????? dorm???????

We certainly are making progress...

http://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/press_releases/text.asp?pid=923
Newly discovered gene may hold clues to evolution of human brain capacity Scientists have discovered a gene that has undergone accelerated evolutionary change in humans and is active during a critical stage in brain development. Although researchers have yet to determine the precise function of the gene, the evidence suggests that it may play a role in the development of the cerebral cortex and may even help explain the dramatic expansion of this part of the brain during human evolution.

"At this point, we can only speculate about this gene's role in the evolution of the human brain, but it's exciting to find a new gene involved in brain development, and it's especially exciting for us because it validates our approach of letting evolution guide us and tell us what are the important parts of the human genome," said David Haussler, director of the Center for Biomolecular Science and Engineering (CBSE) at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and a Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) investigator also Unlike most known genes, HAR1F does not encode instructions for making a protein to carry out its function. Researchers are discovering a growing number of such "noncoding" genes, many of which produce functional RNA molecules. HAR1F appears to be a novel type of RNA gene, Salama said.

This is all pretty new stuff, Dorm, and maybe just the beginning of understanding normal function. More people - young people - need to start getting involved too. education-wise.
Credentials are important to those that have credentials.

The Stabile theories kinda' rest on physical structures supporting logical structures ->- and the train of 3,4,13 - mind v.I (+oral language) ... v.II (+written language) ... v.III (ADD [language]...?painted language?).
The neurone (physical layer) must combine with other neurones in a certain manner to result in these increasing levels of complexity of logical structure.
The increasing complexity of logical structure would - I guess - be represented by increased complexity of linkage between neurones ... think carbon ->- graphite, diamond and Fullerene bucky ball ... ... ... so I guess some kinda' molecule which permits complex patterns of connectivity - would be just the catalyst permitting logical structure evolution.

...and way back ... as the first thought ...

Non-coding RNAs - sure fit the bill.
Kinda' fitting - considering all of our talk about viruses - that RNA should return to this discussion.
So - many viruses have genomic RNA ->- replicate through DNA and then repackage their RNA for exit from the cell.
RNA is much less stable than DNA ->- but precedes DNA ->- and RNA is just so much more mutable ... partly through it being less stable ... that's kinda' the trade-off ... ... ... freedom to mutate - not constrained by having another strand and protection mechanisms to ensure complementarity with a binding partner (DNA exists in double stranded form - one strand more or less merely supporting the other ... ... ...) ... ... ...

So ... yeah! ... I'd like to see increased complexity of interactions between neurones as a consequence of these biomolecules --- and then yes ... real progress ... kinda' a step closer to bridging the idea of the brain as a neural structure ... the mind as a logical structure - an evolving logical structure upon the physical layer - the neurone - evolving as the pattern of interaction of the neurone becomes more complex (the individual neurones involved in the cognitive process) ... just plain ... forming more links ... ... ... demonstrating this would be mighty fine ... ... ... I'll go look - see if there's anything about this ... around and about ...

S.

OK --- so looking good ... 'reelin' assists in hierarchical physical structure ->- and of course ... the metamodel web is a hierarchical logical structure ... ... ...

The earliest-born neurons migrate to the surface, the next generation of neurons settles immediately below, and the final neurons form the deepest cortical layer.
(http://osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/reelin.htm)
So - yes ... getting somewhere ... ... ... it'd be sweet if there were some guy out there in neurostructure land - who has shown that neurones rearrange into a particular structure (away from a simpler but similarly repeating structure) - under the influence of reelin'['round] and Har1f[arf!] ...

... by the way - the answer to your question - because solving mind [proof of the structure] ->- leads to acceptance of its position as an evolved attribute ->- allows us to accept its function as the voice of our evolution (importantly - of our past) ->- allows us to demystify mind and to kill off the silly theories which claim some super power touched us with their magic sticks ->- allows us to take responsibility for our own existence without any hope of a super power who'll swoop down and save us ->- exposes all of the stupid stuff we do (as stupid stuff from our past - voiced in the present by out mind - as desires - not realising that they are now - no longer required) ... and more ... the solution is in the structure ... and the nature of the structure - is about as far from academic as it is possible to get ... ... ...

...definition of the structure - really is that big a deal!

-right now - I can think of nothing with more far reaching consequences

... and all this from a couple of simple structures which could be drawn on a piece of paper ...

...geeze... {geeze}n ... couldn't make it up if I tried ...

g-e-e-z-e!

S

This is all pretty new stuff, Dorm, and maybe just the beginning of understanding normal function. More people - young people - need to start getting involved too. education-wise.
Credentials are important to those that have credentials.


yes it is we have a great understanding here ........>>.....eloveing vricsss are very intresting eppy_genetics.......are the missing key here we contrated well tomuch .....on dna an rna ......>><<.....witch are not the only thing that regulates styeems ofve life an merroy ,,,,;.).............such as trans plants etc dorm ...

Speaking of credentials being important to those who have credentials, what about this set of credentials?


So long ago..Another
*LIFE*

~~*I COULD FEEL*~~
your heart beat...

It's
*NOT*
~~a dream~~

*REMEMBER US*

~~I can see it in your eyes~~

We'll find a place in time *~A place in time beyond the sun~* emit ni ecalp a dnif ll'ew

~*~ :-) A PLACE IN TIME TO CALL OUR HOME (-: ~*~


Sorry, it was getting a bit too technical for the cf not rooted in nor rooting in with the thread and I didn't wanna get lost out here by myself.
Time to hippydance.
Where's my hamster?

cray

ha thats from the 4400 song thanks c f niceeee dormy

Funny how you put 'missing link' and 'Gary' in the same paragraph....Silly...

Spot the pattern (in the next post) - Save the freakin' human race ... ... ...

Courtesy of Emergent Structures (benzene (http://www.chemsoc.org/timeline/graphic/1864_benzene.jpg) and the virus (http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/cells/viruses/images/virus.jpg))

... A clue ...

... spot the pattern - but why??? ... save wo/man?kind? ...

SB.

I dunno brother, but we sure do try!

cray :cool:

Apologies for #530 - a click-too-soon ... anyway ... ... ...

So... Courtesy of Emergent Structures (benzene (http://www.chemsoc.org/timeline/graphic/1864_benzene.jpg) and the virus (http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/cells/viruses/images/virus.jpg)) ... ... ...
~&&~
Courtesy of Emergent Structures (Immunoglobulins (http://www.immunology.klimov.tom.ru/IGs.jpg)) ... with a *guest* appearance by the fundamental particle (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=314785&postcount=330) (aka logic (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=314785&postcount=330)).
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/sb_camsci/Y_fundamental-benzene-IgX-virus_Y.jpg
sb.

<3,4,13 - reveals our rrreality>
...yes ... deadly serious...

To demystify the pattern some ... 13,4,3 ... the 3 allotropes of carbon i.e.
the buckyball, diamond and graphite ... ... ...
http://www.chem.wisc.edu/%7Enewtrad/CurrRef/BDGTopic/BDGFigs/1_6bdgreps.gif
... noting ... that the 13 dimensional nature of the icosahedron is revealed ... ... ...
-icosahedron (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Icosahedron.html)
-truncated icosahedron (Fullerene buckyball) (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TruncatedIcosahedron.html)
... by the central position to the 12 vertices which generate the 20-sided shape ... 13 dimensions - 13 points in space where one might sit - one jump away from the centre ... ... ...

SB.

Stardust and billion year old carbon?

And the pattern in amino acids (http://www.cryst.bbk.ac.uk/PPS95/course/3_geometry/amino.gif) ... 4 OF 3,4,13


And the pattern in fat (http://www.fao.org/docrep/V4700E/V4700E01.GIF) ... 3 OF 3,4,13

And then - oh my! ... oh my! oh my!! ... ... ... oh my!!! oh my!!! oh my!!!... ... ...

And the neurone - the very familiar shape of the neurone ...(temporarily forgetting its physical and logical dichotomous forms)...(temporarily forgetting its physical and logical dichotomous forms)... but similar to what exactly? ...the pattern - the solution is in the pattern - and if the fundamental building block was a Y - Y shouldn't we expect Y superstructures built atop of it ... ... ... Ain't gonna' get no perfect spheres offa' building cubes ... ... ...

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/color/pic1an.gifhttp://www.swbic.org/products/clipart/images/bacteriophage.jpg


... the ::neurone (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/color/pic1an.gif):: and the ::virus (http://www.swbic.org/products/clipart/images/bacteriophage.jpg)::
... are the *same* ... ... ...

...simply a jump or so up the Universal (not just life) 3,4,13 pattern of evolution...


Seek absolution from the pattern ...

SB.

oh my!

... :-) ...

omg!

sb.

... so the first post-Homo sapiens subsp. sapiens freak has the first thought - turns to his mate - the last pre-Homo sapiens subsp. sapiens dude on the block - and says - dude - 'just had the first thought' ... dumb pre-H.s.s. thinks nothing of it - no mind to think (you see) ... and forgets to ask the big question ... ... ...
... {50 000 years elapse} ...

... the first thought was (of course) the first question was (of course) - 'whY?'
... ...?...?...?... y-0-y-0-y-0-Y ...?...?...?...

... ... ... the answer to that first thought and question ... 'just because;{3,4,13}' ... ... ...

sb.

The dendrites on the neurone originally permitted a single linkage (above and beyond the capabilities of a virus) - i.e. evolution from 3->->-4 (in the Universal pattern of evolution 3->-4->-13) ... and then {through multiple linkages} into 13 (4->->-13) (and perhaps (maybe(even)) past - into the next cycle of 3,4,13) ... ... ...

~noting that 13 represents '1' in the next cycle of 3,4,13 (that is 3 x 13s need link to generate 3 (the first rung) on the next (more highly evolved (more complex (higher infomation content))) 3,4,13 platform.

[1']..3'->-4'->-13'[1']
{an example of this transition includes the transition between physics and chemistry (that is) ... the transition from subatomic ->- atom [element]}
[1']..3'->-4'->-13'[1'']

SB.

From above ...

icosahedron ... 20 vertices
truncated icosahedron ... 60 vertices


[1']->-3' ->- 4' ->- 13' [1']
[1']->-3' ->- 4' ->- 13' [1'']


So if 13 [1'] = 20 vertices then ->- 3' would have ... {60 vertices}

...hmmm...

SB.

...hmmm...ummm...hmmm...

yes!!!!!!!!! I spent the morning reading as much as I could about m-algebra etc to see the 3,4,13 and why 13.
11 + 2 got that...but can't recall the details right now because I found THIS:

http://www.mtnmath.com/willbe/what.pdf

236 pages - I skimmed every page and felt compelled to put the link here...gotta find this guy.
mountain man math. there's an html version toooo.

And of course I have to look at what you've posted today...and you take a look at this book.
conciousness is energy while information is structure...
we are the big G - and we're evolving to collective consciousness...

instinctually, we are all going in a like direction and we will figure this out.




very Jungian and archetypes.

so many are so close, now to put all that together and see it as it is known...
kripes....back to mundania...

ooopsy - wrong thread! ::destination Ian's t=31836::

Holey Riemannian manifolds, Ian (snakedude*)...!...
... more ... tomorrow ... :-) ...

S.

spiderman, batman and *snakedude!

Hi all. I was away, I will catch up, but not tonight or for a while. it will take a week I guess. Will be incommunacado again tomorrow. finishing up a few things. Looks like the talks progressed alot.

What a trip I had. I am not who I was before. I guess some of you here know what I'm talking about.

Imagine...


Boots..reconnecting.

why.adf andwhat.pdf (http://www.mtnmath.com/willbe/what.pdf)
- that's poetry ... 'we are the big G - and we're evolving to collective consciousness...' ... {lil'ole'me'} - yes! - definitely ... ... ... ' conciousness is energy while information is structure...' {l'o'm} - yes! - definitely - and as mentioned earlier in the thread - except more from the consciousness == structure and information == energy perspective ... though interchangeable (I guess) ... will think on ... 'so many are so close' {l'o'm} - yes! - definitely ... ... ... I see it too ... the ubiquity is astounding - and the world is on a deadline and needs the realization which we're hunting down here (and previously) ... ... ...
gestalt awakenings - coming to a mind near you {from sooner than one could ever know} ... ... ... 'why' gives way to 'what(.pdf)' - I'm there ...

SB.

(btw) Tom and Kay are around - we'll see them soon (I'm guessin') ... ... ...
:-) ... cheeky T and K! ... :-) ...
Ian is taking us into 'tensors' - and I have this inkling that T&K's kids have cracked open that particular problem ... ... ...

btw[v II] - a 'k' from forum thread::'Hawkings soars into the future' 'the record ends and we must begin again' == gestalt awakenings ... ... ...

btw [reloaded] - 'Wolfie' Wolfram (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tensor.html) lists ... the following ... under tensors
<form name="SearchLinks" method="post" action="http://mathworld.wolfram.com/search/"> SEE ALSO: Antisymmetric Tensor, Array, Cartesian Tensor, Comma Derivative, Contravariant Tensor, Covariant Derivative, Covariant Tensor, Curl, Divergence, Gradient, Index Gymnastics, Index Lowering, Index Raising, Irreducible Tensor, Isotropic Tensor, Jacobi Tensor, Matrix, Mixed Tensor, Ricci Curvature Tensor, Riemann Tensor, Scalar, Symmetric Tensor, Tensor Contraction, Tensor Field, Tensor Space, Torsion Tensor, Vector, Weyl Tensor.

Just checking :: the 'SEE ALSO' isn't mandatory is it? ...:-)...

Cheeky mathematical fundamentalist 'Wolfie' Wolfram (the third).
</form>

I wonder if there is a time limit to editing a post? I think I hold the record here....

Thousands of post worth of experience (not counting moderating duties):I have learned:

***Once the post is submitted to the board ,editing can only be done for thirty minutes. *** After the 30 minutes has passed the system will no longer let you make changes to your post.

. . . . . . . . . . . . ~*~ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~*~ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~*~


Tid bits and pieces I have learned being a dyslexic


***To avoid the hassle of the 30 minute limitation while doing some of the more artistic post I use the pre-view option before actual submission . To the best of my knowledge the timing mechanism is not triggered by the pre-view option. (I am experimenting with this one 7 more minutes )


*Once the submit option is selected the post goes up on the board, and the thirty minute count down begins.*

While in editing mode your original post remains visible on the forum thus the “save changes” option. Only after the changes are saved is the original post replaced with the edited version!


It is also worth mentioning: That if your powers suddenly goes out, storms, break in service , your cat disconnects PC power while chasing a bug, for what ever reason you if are disconnected the ADDF system will not save your work if it has not yet been submitted. If a post is worthy of the preview option or it is complicated it should be saved into word or another type program at frequent intervals Your PC programs are more likely to save your work (but like most things not guaranteed) should some thing unexpected happen (like power loss or goofy system glitches)

When ADDF site went wacho (I was lucky enough to be on that morning) I was glad I did my stuff in word because I when I hit submit to post the system ate my post! :eek: Naturally it was a longer more complicated post but because I had it in word also I was able to save it and post my response when ADDF got back on-line(it was still just as good two days later).

I was correct the 30 minutes do not start until you actually hit submit! I had this post in preview 45 minutes and last minute changes did show up . . . . . .

I have read To kvrrd’s , actually I have gotten to a few of SB’s as well.
post 516 = I am not done reading all of this!


If we knew this, maybe we'd know why we were put into the box in the first place...

I was placed into a box actually several boxes over time however I kept wiggling out! :p So they finially came to the conclusion I was a hyper active non-box dweller a roust about!





Does it matter what actually lead to an emergence?

Dyslexic minds in search of

The pattern thing . . . . . .





as the mind emerges=evolves, the physical goes away=emerges as speciation...

Sort of not really must have physical to support brain . . .mental movement and physical movement closely linked in the brain . . . all that doesn’t move grows roots . . . .give more meaning to some who need to be put into flower pot and watered weekly. . . :eek: . . ..Parkinson’s effects flow of movement have source some where!

Three hours later . . . .No ADD here

Oh yea this is where I got lost found old data disk with the info I wanted and got distracted by a title of some thing I wrote, “Barkley crap” Sorry blast from the past shant bother with that today

Where was I ? Oh yea

“A user’s Guide to the Brain”
John Ratey M.D.
Memory , Thinking, and Learning

Page 175-177

*** Source Quote

The brains motor function affects so much more than just physical motion. It is crucial to all other brain functions, perception, attention, emotions and so effects the highest cognitive process of memory, thinking, and learning.

We are always modifying, and learning through movement.

Loss of a sense of timing often accompanies movement disorders such as Parkinson’s disease and Huntington’s Disease. The basal ganglia are heavily involved and are now being shown to have significant influence on thought and memory. They are believed to be the gatekeepers, or controllers, of sensory influences on cognition as well as motor control. When they are not working properly, the structures of the basal ganglia fail to appropriately shut down certain movements and thoughts, which leads to irregular movements, tics, and obsessive compulsive behavior. One study of Parkinson’s patients examined the process of learning and repeated new procedures. The results showed that the patient’s degree of motor disability correlated with their impairment in recalling task. ***End Source Quote




Sense as in one type is given over or in exchange for another.

Dyslexia is an example fast processors less than or missing while numerous are the slower processors that do dept, contrast,

From “A User’s Guide to the Brain”

John J. Ratey M.D.
Page 282-283

*** Source Quote

Clinically diagnosed dyslexics are born with several structural differences in their brains that make reading, sounding out words, or spelling extremely difficult despite their normal or above-average intelligence. The common cortex has six basic layers, with 1 having essentially no cells, but dyslexics typically have branches of cells in layer 1.

Further down 283

Many language impairments may stem from an early childhood problems in hearing quick changes in phonemes; normal children can discern the fast combinations of adjacent letter sounds, such as the “p” and “a” of “pa” which are separated by only 10 milliseconds , but dyslexics with auditory processing problems can’t. This leads to reading problems because phonetic writing such as English is learned by matching sounds to letters. For these children the higher level processing of reading seems to remain intact, but it is learned slowly because it is harder for the child to sound out new words, as well as to spell words while trying to write. Studies have shown that part of the cause may be relative impairment of the magnocellular visual cells in the geniculate body a way station in the thalamus as information passes through there on it’s way to the cortex.


Page 284-285

Confirming Livingstone’s brilliant intuition, they found a relative lack of magnocellar neurons in the lateral geniculate as well.


Other cells in the geniculate bodies parvocellular cells-are slow processors and evolved later in the brain than the fast processing magnocellular cells, which are the main type in the lower primates and are good at picking up quick movements and thus necessary for survival. The parvocellular cells help us discern subtleties in tones and texture shape and color. These are the very characteristics that artist, musicians, and architects are best at perceiving and using, and studies show that there is a high rate of dyslexia among this population. Perhaps in some people at least, the later evolving parvocellular cells have gained ground in the geniculate body at the expense of the magnocellular cells. We don’t need to see the quick movements nearly as much. ***End Source Quote

Underlining and bold mine!


viruses hide out in bone marrow - like herpes in the spinal column. Triggers are required to activate 'em. I remember reading "The Microbe Hunters" as a kid - my Mom worked as a microchemist in microbiology and eventually as a biochemist.

Bone marrow home of the white blood cell hence not as dormant as previously thought, allergies are immune response gone OCD!



fast mutating RNA in viruses has to be faster than the host. we should all be so adaptable...

Agreed!

Most excellent SB!
This is exactly what I was trying to say = Thanks
***SB source Quote
The implications of these studies are that treatment of HIV-1 infected people with drugs that will block the IL-4 receptors will stop HIV-1 infections and the determination of the levels of IL-4 and IL-4 delta 2 in the sera of HIV-1+ patients will enable to identify the individuals that have a natural resistance to HIV-l/AIDS and those who need treatments.***End Quote

These are just variation minor no less yet oh sooo powerful . . .could these genetic difference be considered disordered if they were annoying instead of life saving? Waht exactly is normal did i ever know . .did any one ever know who is to say we aren't normal wigly is normal for me when I am not wiggly I am not normal! Brain plasitcity according to genetic combines with enviroement which changes daily doesn't than mean our neural net works would also change?

viruses hide out in bone marrow - like herpes in the spinal column. Triggers are required to activate 'em. I remember reading "The Microbe Hunters" as a kid - my Mom worked as a microchemist in microbiology and eventually as a biochemist.

Bone marrow home of the white blood cell hence not as dormant as one though possible now if I can only locate that study I saw like 12 hours ago and though that is prefect.

Do you have any idea how many places I have been on the internet in the last 12 hours oh man oh man!

Virsus, bone marrow, inflammation, knew I had seen that some where before meant to post this with pervious post sorry :o

MedScape, lite reading before bed (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/529176)

***Source Quote
Substantial laboratory evidence implicates beta-amyloid-induced neuroinflammation with neurotoxicity, and this appears to be an early event in neurodegeneration.[22] Experimental models using beta-amyloid-stimulated murine microglia suggest that beta-amyloid-induced neuronal death may be mediated by synergy between TNF-alpha and glutamate-induced neurotoxicity.[18] In addition to TNF-alpha, beta amyloid upregulates other inflammatory mediators in the brain, including interleukin (IL)-1 beta, IL-6, nitric oxide, and inducible nitric oxide synthase.[5,21,24] Increasing evidence suggests that microscopic inflammation resulting from the release of inflammatory cytokines, including TNF-alpha, by amyloid-beta-activated microglia plays a central role in the neurotoxicity that occurs in AD. This hypothesis suggests that specific anti-inflammatory agents that downregulate this inflammatory process could potentially be of therapeutic benefit in AD.
***End Source Quote


Some times looking for what one wants begin seeing what one does not want . . . .AD and inflammation study!

I once had to present the entry into and exit from a cell - of HIV - specifically looking at CD4/gp120 (entry) and HIV protease (exit).
gp120 is the HIV molecule mimicking CD4-ligand.

Read up on this stuff understood some, lots of numbers and letters describing parts worse than auto such as in car. But the above lead to my previous post and this stuff below . . . .

Blood Journal AIDS (http://www.bloodjournal.org/cgi/content/full/89/4/1357)

***Source Quote
Our findings prompt several important questions. First, what is the mechanism of enhanced Fas selectivity of normal versus patient lymphocytes? Although additional factors such as TNF- or interferon- are expressed in abundance in AIDS and could contribute to this effect,30,33,34 HIV-1 infection per se may enhance apoptosis by its activation of CD4+ lymphocytes. It is also possible that gradual depletion of CD4+ cells results in decreased production of an apoptosis inhibitor, resulting in a perpetuating process in the course of disease***End Source Quote

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . .and


experimental allergic encephalomyelitis (http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/Sep2002/FullTextAdhesionMoleculesChemokinesAndMacrophagesI nEAE.html)

***Source Quote
Thus, the invasion of leukocytes (non-labeled as well as TMBPGFP cells) occurred despite the barrier role of SPM to CNS infiltration which we had previously shown in a different kind of experiment [4]. Being a component of a neuroprotective mechanism of extraparenchymal antigen presentation and prevention of infiltrates, activated SPM can impede blood cells from crossing the lamina superficialis gliae limitans and infiltrate CNS parenchyma under conditions of a non-inflammatoryimmune response to exogenous proteins [4]. During EAE, however, SPM fail to stop the infiltration of CNS parenchyma by highly activated lymphocytes (primed against MBP). Obviously the degree of T cell activation, the number of activated T cells, and the localization of the target antigen in the CNS are all important factors in determining the extent of intraparenchymal T cell infiltration.


Although the numerous and densely-packed cells in and around the Virchow-Robin space rendered difficult the discrimination between endothelial cells, recruited macrophages and activated SPM, these results are in line with the earlier findings demonstrating expression of VCAM-1 mRNA in cerebral perivascular macrophages in the acute phase of immune-mediated injury [24].
***End Source Quote


Add in my Alzheimer’s thingie of previous post

Plus the AD one I had earlier am I just totally nuts-oid or do the things appear kind of alike in pattern? It "felt" familuar the autoimmune, HIV and I accidently ran upon the AD I put up earlier same pattern which is why it caught my attention.

Honestly I won’t be upset if I am wrong after all most of this stuff is kind of over my head any way. :o My understanding is on the fringe I feel like I am barely touching the edge if I stand on my tippy toes so to speak. I am asking and do not have a problems being corrected by some one with more knowledge. Correction is a part of the learning process.



Does this mean there is life inside my head, well more than the air bubbles. I really did not expect to find any thing when I searched under Alzheimer's, autoimmune and HIV.

Spark of company / ucsf.edu (http://www.ucsf.edu/pressrel/2001/12/121401.html)

***Source Quote
The new study from Pulliam's group focuses on a subset of monocyte/macrophages
that are more numerous in both AIDS dementia and in Alzheimer's disease.
Monocyte/macrophages that display a surface molecule called CD69 are much more
prolific in the blood of AIDS dementia patients and patients with Alzheimer's
disease than in healthy people.
The study found that after AIDS dementia patients were treated with a complete
anti-AIDS drug regimen, their levels of CD69 cells were somewhat lower but
still higher than non-demented AIDS patients and similar to those of patients
with Alzheimer's disease.***End Source Quote


(Shrug) What do you all smart people think? = does this mean I am not a complete idiot (several pieces are still missing :p ). . . .

Hi all. I was away, I will catch up, but not tonight or for a while. it will take a week I guess. Will be incommunacado again tomorrow. finishing up a few things. Looks like the talks progressed alot.

What a trip I had. I am not who I was before. I guess some of you here know what I'm talking about.

Imagine...


Boots..reconnecting.Glad to see again Boots. :)

Tammy's 'all that doesn't move grows roots' is a perfect description of the 3,4,13 pattern - specifically - the pattern of evolution of virus ->- nerve.
The nerve is a rooted virus.

The only real difference between nerve and virus is the shocking mop of blonde hair atop of the nerve - post#535

Roots- dendrites - anchor - wig - linkage - evolution to complexity... ... ... your call ... my interest is in Tam's insightful description of evolution.

sb.

p=327871
(http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=327871&postcount=4){~ ~~ ~~~ and ~~~~ (only))
+
p=327878 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=327878&postcount=2)
{defining ADD as being ...}
=

I really did not expect to find any thing when I searched under Alzheimer's, autoimmune and HIV.
SB.

And here I thought, we could 'solve' that darn 'dendrite' problem with the Head and Shoulders shampoo...

Silly Girly me.... (0:

Thanks K, for this article !

I saved a copy of it.

Experiencin' 'mod' trouble, Bubble ? (0:

This thread has plenty o' 'food for thought', that's certain.

Evolutionary psychology ... ... ... ... :-) ...

from -> * (http://www.discover.com/issues/mar-06/cover/) <- DISCOVER[Vol. 27 No. 03][March 2006]

"We have a lot of evidence with Mimivirus that the virus phylum is at least as old as the other branches of life and that viruses were involved very early on in the evolutionary emergence of life."

sb.

+13
Alzheimers, HIV and inflammation ...:p
The classical pattern in the immune system ie of
Th1 vs Th2 (broadly speaking anti-virus vs anti-parasite) ... a little more broadly speaking ...the threat 'within' vs 'without' ... ... ...

So - allergies fit into the Th2 response - allergens from without ... ... ...
Classically - inflammatory cytokines are more associated with Th1 - IL-1a/b and friends ... ... ...

Way back on this thread we looked at the protein which tried to direct its own replication - CJD is a disorder which is caused by such rampant protein 'replication' ... ... ... Drawing a link between this pathology and AD - where ... amyloid beta polyprotein forms extracellular plaques.

As mentioned previously - the protein's attempts to replicate itself - evolved into the triumvirate of life (protein -> RNA -> DNA) (often described (though) as DNA -> RNA -> protein) ... when the protein just couldn't go it alone.

Jumping around a little then - we have the idea of a replicating virus (not alive) and a replicating precursor to it - a replicating protein (not alive) ... ... ...

We have a central paradigm in immunology of ...
attack of intracellular infections vs attack of extracellular agents ... with an inflammatory reaction more closely associated with the Th1 (ie left hand side).
So ... ... ...

How about?

A battle between replicating virus and protein[extracellular] - involving recruitment of factors which were later to develop into the higher organism capacity for combatting intra- and extra-cellular infections.

So - in those early days - the battle for domination of the replicating (immediately) pre-life domain of our 'evolutionary' history --- a battle which would evolve into a mechanism for higher organisms to fight off just the little critters which it was designed to fight off ... ... ... except both simultaneously - instead of all out warfare for plain 'ole survival.

... however ... ... ...

we're not quite there on ...Alzheimers, HIV and inflammation ... ... ...:p
(??? or are we ...:-)...?)

Alzheimers..............HIV....................inf lammation
protein...................virus................... antiviral physiological mechanism
extracellular............intracellular.........
allergens.........................................

~ADDForum thread:Metamind (Carla B.) contained an examination of the allergic response being co-opted by the process of mental evolution (speciation).
~The promotion of an allergenic reactivity (Th2) -> a diminution in the Th1 profile.
~The battle of virus vs protein favours virus
~The evolved form of the virus is towards *not* replication - but formation and use [neurotransmission] in ever-more increasingly complex [more neurones firing] patterns
~The evolved form of the protein [as seen in neurodegenerative conditions] is vanquished ... ... ...
~The inflammatory profile is lessened ... ... ... [concomitant with the virus winning the war of replication]

... and ~all in all~

... ... ... [i]AD(H)D is shown (here) (in this scheme) to be protective of neurodegenerative conditions ... ... ...

:-) ... ... ... :-)

SB.

sausages.

... ... ... boy! am I glad none of this is out on the Internet where people can see it --- ...erm... ... heckety thump! ... ... ...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/alien006.gif OUTTA HERE! Of course I will still read this thread.

Crazy :cool:

'dendrite' 'dedwrong''dendruff'
... with the Head and Shoulders shampoo...
silly silly me ...(0:-)...*

*a kinda' Dali tribute

sb.

... most see 2 smiling figures - but look closer and you'll find the benevolent gaze of an enlightened one - with a well developed third eye ... ... ... :-omg ! ... ... ... :-lol ... ... ...

:-) ... SB.

The nerve is a rooted virus.

Hmm can’t say I have ever looked at it this way interesting approach . . . .I like some thing new . . . . .hmmm do virus multiply with things that do not have brains(dendrites) ? Hmmm I don’t think I have ever seen a tree with a cold, never given my Ivy the sniffles. I am not careful my dog catches our colds and flu same way we catch them from each other.(well maybe not all the same ways -bad brain, bad brain) :rolleyes:

We have symbolic relationship with bacteria they help us with stuff like digestion, yeast, ect . . . .of coa rse these would be only certain types of bacteria and such we gel well around, in with ???



And here I thought, we could 'solve' that darn 'dendrite' problem with the Head and Shoulders shampoo...

LOL!!!! Hey that is my line!

inflammatory cytokines


Th1 - IL-1a/b

CJD


Man is a viral infection of the planet!! Too many matrix movies maybe, sure gives it a new twist . . . . we are really smart viruses we pal around with some bacteria, and made nice with yeast. . . . . btw- I have only seen the one Matrix movie but I think I saw it twice.

It is going to take my mind a while to "digest this"

Yeh glad we aren't posting all this stuff in public over the internet. Some one might mistake us for demented dentrites that lost our head at the shoulders. . . . :p

I know people that suffer from all of these viruses - and I've talked to them about symptoms, etc.
All these similiarities are creepy.
I wanted to mention that MS kept nagging at me also, in this thread, so for grins I did a googlesmoogle and I found zillions of articles....


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 10px" vAlign=top align=left><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px" vAlign=top align=right>Source:</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px" vAlign=top align=left><!-- SOURCE BEGIN -->Howard Hughes Medical Institute (http://www.hhmi.org/)<!-- SOURCE END --></TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-TOP: 5px" vAlign=top align=right>Posted:</TD><TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 5px; PADDING-TOP: 5px" vAlign=top align=left><!-- DATE BEGIN -->May 2, 2006<!-- DATE END --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=right>
</TD><TD vAlign=center noWrap align=left> |
|
|
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Epstein-Barr Virus Might Kick-start Multiple Sclerosis

<!-- BODY BEGIN -->Researchers have found that patients with multiple sclerosis (MS) carry a population of immune cells (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060502173250.htm#) that overreact to Epstein-Barr virus. The virus, which causes mononucleosis and may contribute to some cancers (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060502173250.htm#), has long been suspected to play a role in MS. However, the mechanism linking the virus to the disease was poorly understood.

<!-- IMAGE BEGIN -->http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2006/05/060502173250.jpg
Multiple sclerosis is a chronic inflammatory disease of the central nervous system (CNS) thought to be mediated by T cells attacking the insulating myelin sheath of nerve cells. EBNA1-specific T cells (1) or antibodies (2) could falsely recognize and attack CNS auto-antigens, a process called molecular mimicry. Or EBNA1-specific T cells could ramp up the action of auto-aggressive myelin-specific T cells with soluble pro-inflammatory molecules such as interferon-gamma, a mechanism termed bystander activation (3). In addition, latent EBV antigens could sustain the survival of auto-reactive B cells (4), or they could be triggered by auto-antigens that initiate viral replication (5), in turn elevating EBV-specific T cell responses (6). (Illustration: Jan Lünemann)
<!-- IMAGE END -->Scientists think that MS—which can cause vision problems (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060502173250.htm#), muscle weakness, and difficulty with coordination and balance—is a result of the immune system (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060502173250.htm#) attacking the body's own nervous system. Not everyone who is infected with Epstein-Barr develops MS, but the results of the new study, published in the June 2006, issue of the journal Brain, suggest that some individuals' unusually strong reaction to the virus may trigger the disease. The findings could lead to new therapeutic strategies for better control of the damage caused in this autoimmune disorder.

The culprit, the researchers say, may be a population of T cells that helps boost other components of the immune system in response to the virus. "What we discovered in the peripheral blood of the MS patients were T cells that appeared to be primed for action against EBV," said Nancy Edwards, an HHMI-NIH research scholar at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and co-author of the paper, which was published in advance online.

HHM-NIH research scholars are medical (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060502173250.htm#) students who are interested in research. They compete for the opportunity to spend a year conducting mentored research in NIH labs. The program is designed to encourage medical students to consider careers as physician (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060502173250.htm#)-scientists. Edwards, a medical student at Duke University School of Medicine, conducted her research primarily in the laboratory of noted MS researcher Roland Martin at the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke.

“The susceptibility to acquire MS is inherited, but environmental insults such as viral infections are thought to trigger the disease, and Epstein-Barr virus is one of the leading candidate triggers,“ said first author Jan Lünemann, a neurologist and immunologist at The Rockefeller University in New York. “Epstein-Barr virus does not cause MS, but the immune response to this virus is different in MS patients, and our hypothesis is that the altered immune response contributes to the development and progression of the disease.”

Lünemann started the research as a postdoctoral fellow at NIH. He is continuing to investigate the role of Epstein-Barr virus in MS in the lab of Christian Münz, a Rockefeller University researcher who specializes in EBV-specific immune responses.

The people with MS, who are universally infected with Epstein Barr virus, showed increased antibody responses to certain EBV proteins in previous studies, Lünemann said. “Very recent investigations have shown that such enhanced responses occur years before onset of clinical symptoms of MS,” he noted, indicating that EBV plays an important role early in the development of the disease.

“Our aim was to investigate what causes these increased antibody concentrations and if T cell responses to EBV are different in patients with MS," Lünemann said. He and Edwards focused on one viral protein, called Epstein-Barr virus-encoded nuclear antigen1 (EBNA1).

Epstein-Barr virus usually persists life-long inside immune system B cells and is kept under control by virus-specific T cells. When B cells divide, the virus produces EBNA1 and uses it to slip its own DNA into the new cell. T cells that target EBNA1 are a crucial component of EBV-specific immune responses in individuals without MS.

Lünemann, Edwards, and colleagues began by collecting T cells from 20 untreated patients with MS and 20 volunteers who had been infected by Epstein-Barr virus but did not have the autoimmune disease. They then isolated from each patient the T cells that specifically responded to EBNA1.

A series of experiments revealed a pattern among the EBNA1 T cells in MS patients that was not seen in the healthy volunteers. “We saw a dual effect—not only was there an increased number of EBNA1 responsive T cells, but these T cells proliferated to a greater extent when they were stimulated by antigens,” said Edwards.

"We also examined T-cell responses to influenza hemagglutinin, antigens derived from cytomegalovirus, and even EBV antigens other than EBNA1," Edwards said. "The T-cell responses to these were all normal in MS patients, indicating a distinct role for EBNA1 in the disorder."

The team then wanted to determine which portion of EBNA1 the T cells were recognizing. Generally, immune cells recognize one small, specific part on a protein, called an immunodominant region. Earlier evidence had pointed to one end of the protein, so the team decided to focus there. Münz supplied a series of 51 peptides—small segments of the EBNA1 protein—that the team added to T cells from MS patients and healthy controls.

As expected, the T cells in the healthy volunteers activated only in the presence of a specific group of peptides. But, Edwards said, “EBNA1-specific T cells from the MS patients not only increased in frequency, but also recognized a much broader region of the protein, compared to healthy people who carried the EBV virus." Immunologists call this phenomenon epitope-spreading. “This was an interesting and unexpected finding,” said Edwards. “At this point, I really believed we had a story.”

Finally, the team discovered that the hyper-reactive T cells belonged to the CD4 compartment of memory T cells and that these cells were strong producers of interferon-gamma, an anti-viral protein that shapes immune responses. “Animal research has shown that pro-inflammatory CD4 cells directed against central nervous system antigens can trigger an MS-like disease,” said Edwards. “So we knew we were looking at the right population of T cells.”

The next step will be to determine how these over-reactive immune cells trigger the destruction of the myelin sheathing that insulates nerve cells. “The broadened response of the T cells could lead them to recognize and attack cells they aren't supposed to, like brain cells,” said Münz. This process, called molecular mimicry, is seen in other autoimmune disorders, such as lupus.

Münz predicted that Edwards, who is returning to Duke University this summer to complete her medical degree, could help bridge the gap between the research worlds of infectious diseases and autoimmune diseases. “It's an exciting new field to which Nancy could greatly contribute,” he said.

Whatever the ultimate cause of MS, Edwards finds the therapeutic implications of her work exciting. “For some reason, MS patients chronically accumulate these hyper-responsive T cells," she said. "And if these cells are indeed involved, either directly or indirectly, in central nervous system injury and inflammation, interfering with them could prove effective.”

...back into the arms of an Evol Psycho (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=328808&postcount=15) ... ... ...

Incidentally ... ... ...
Epstein-Barr virus (Michael Anthony Epstein) (http://www.whonamedit.com/synd.cfm/3508.html)
Human herpes virus causing infectious mononucleosis.

Description:
Double-stranded DNA virus of the gamma sub family of Herpetoviridae, genus Simplexvirus, species Herpes simplex virus 4.
It is present in about 95 per cent of adults in the world, and is believed to be a key causal factor in certain types of cancer, especially a nose and throat cancer which each year kills 40.000 to 50.000 people in Asia.
In the West, the virus causes infectious mononucleosis.
mononucleosis is ...?... and wouldn't kissing represent a 3 ->- 4 (of 3,4,13) evolution - 2 connected 3d objects ...?... sb.

hmmm ... there're mononucleated cells (T and B cell) and polymorphonucleocytes (basophils, eosinophils, neutrophils) in the evolved immune system ... ... ...
These are called white blood cells ... and red blood cells are enucleated (biconcave discs) ... ... ...

hmmm ... with complexity arising kinda' in this order ->- rbc ->- wbc (PMNs first [the non-specific arm of the evolved immune system] then B/T cells [the specific arm of the evolved immune system]) ... ... ...

hmmm ... 3 forms of cells ... there's that pesky number again!

hmmm ... mightn't the eukaryotic cell (structure) be considered an emergent (structure) ... look to the heart (nucleus) of the matter ... ... ...

hmmm ... I'm hmmm'ing real bad {must wash} ... :-) ...

From Ed Burger (http://www.portfolio.mvm.ed.ac.uk/studentwebs/session3/7/Genetics.htm)
ApoE4 ->- alzheimers
noting ...
apoE4 + beta amyloid(soluble) -> plaques

Isn't this structure (just a little) familiar -?- think virus or neurone or virus or benzene or virus or IgM or ...
...virus or apoE4

Alzheimers, MS, schizophrenia[disorder of the mind and not brain]

In MS ...
neurone[virus(evolved)] vs Immune system[virus(evolved)]
reduction in neuronal population - increase in cell numbers of the immune system (inflammation) (Il-1a/b.TNFa and IFNg are the most quoted 'players' here)

In HSV ...
mononucleosis - amplification in numbers of mononuclear immune cells ...
HSV - a complex virus (evolutionarily and by classification), in synergy with its environment (lives alongside host).
-transmission from anatomy reponsible for genetic transmission and logical model transmission ... nature and nurture ... from anatomical parts (in (wo)man - from which ~tales are told of ~love (and all that love entails) ... ... ...

In Alzheimers ...
plaque formation - increase in the number of (or size of) plaques (polyprotein aggregates (analogue to virus - also not alive)).

In schizophrenia ...
not yet ... something's missing ... ... ... we're going to need emergent structure::ion channel ... ... ...

... here's one ...
http://www.marylandresearch.umd.edu/issues/spring2003/images/frame4_back_2-nearest.jpg

from another angle ...
http://www.rockefeller.edu/pubinfo/Kchannel1.gif

Hmmming again ... Hmmm... Hmmm... Hmmm... ... ...
~do you see it too?~

SB.

~whoopsy~

From #563 Ed in Burger - I'm pointing at ->- (btw)

http://www.portfolio.mvm.ed.ac.uk/studentwebs/session3/7/index.5.gif

(ApoE4) ... and its structural closeness to ... hrumph! ...

... ... ... benzene, ion channel, IgM, virus, neurone.


sb.

Yupsy - the ion channel possesses the same structure as a rooted virus - just kinda' like Norman Neurone.
The neurone is rooted with its axon (just like the bacteriophage) - and the ion channel is rooted within the phospholipid bilayer membrane of the cell.

We're honing in now - in on what's missing ... ... ...

We need to rationalize the switch from DNA to ion channel flux ... from the virus to the neurone ... ... ... the rationale under both the virus and neurone is identical - to fall down that hill ... ... ... but replication of genetic matter and logical matter ... ... ... that's gonna' take some doing - isn't it?

... the logical and genetic models ... layers of abstraction apart - and yet the same ...

...Anyone seen the movie ... :-) ...?...

SB.

...Anyone seen the movie ... :-) ...?... coming soon to a stage near you...
OMG - I just got test results back and I have low sodium....!??? me me me me me oops sorry.

schizophrenia http://www.nimh.nih.gov/HealthInformation/schizophreniamenu.cfm[/url]
Schizophrenia is a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disorder that affects about 1 percent of people all over the world. People with schizophrenia sometimes hear voices others don’t hear, believe that others are broadcasting their thoughts to the world, or become convinced that others are plotting to harm them. These experiences can make them fearful and withdrawn and cause difficulties when they try to have relationships with others.
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Potassium.asp?sitearea=ETO
Some alternative medical practitioners maintain that low levels of potassium in the body may be linked to cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure, osteoporosis depression, and schizophrenia. Some proponents claim that a diet high in sodium (salt) and low in potassium promotes tumor growth by changing the normal pH and water balance in human cells.
Symptoms usually develop in men in their late teens or early twenties and women in the twenties and thirties, but in rare cases, can appear in childhood. They can include hallucinations, delusions, disordered thinking, movement disorders, flat affect, social withdrawal, and cognitive deficits
http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=12472985
I don't want to post what most of this says but...
<CENTER><TABLE width=728><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #6495ed 1px solid" width=180><CENTER></CENTER></TD><TD style="BORDER-TOP: #6495ed 1px solid" width=135><CENTER>http://www.ionchannels.org/stockphotos/adlinks/95.gif </CENTER></TD><TD style="BORDER-TOP: #6495ed 1px solid" width=135><CENTER>http://www.ionchannels.org/stockphotos/adlinks/62.gif </CENTER></TD><TD style="BORDER-TOP: #6495ed 1px solid" width=135><CENTER> </CENTER></TD><TD style="BORDER-TOP: #6495ed 1px solid" width=135><CENTER> </CENTER></TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none" colSpan=5><CENTER><SCRIPT type=text/javascript><!--google_ad_client = "pub-1503705297785739";google_alternate_ad_url = "http://www.ionchannels.org/include/altad01.html";google_ad_width = 728;google_ad_height = 15;google_ad_format = "728x15_0ads_al";google_ad_channel ="9033579088";google_color_border = "FFFFFF";google_color_bg = "FFFFFF";google_color_link = "0000FF";google_color_url = "0000FF";google_color_text = "0000FF";//--></SCRIPT><SCRIPT src="http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT></CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER><CENTER>Diazoxide in the treatment of schizophrenia: novel application of potassium channel openers in the treatment of schizophrenia. </CENTER>The causes of schizophrenia are still largely unknown. ...
The relative ineffectiveness of dopamine antagonists to treat some symptoms of schizophrenia has promoted many investigators to postulate the involvement of the neuronal system in the pathophysiology of this disease. It has been suggested that the dopamine-coupled adenosine triphosphate (ATP)-sensitive[url="http://www.ionchannels.org/"] channels (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/catie_phase2.cfm) may function by hyperpolarizing cells during metabolic stress, a function that may be disrupted in people with schizophrenia. Therefore, application of potassium channel (http://www.ionchannels.org/) openers/activators may be beneficial in schizophrenia.
I have to edit a lot of this stuff... so instead here: http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=12808432 for SK3-1B and mRNA , ahh SK3-1B expression very similar to SK3-Delta (found in patients with schizo...

http://www.ionadventure.com/ Dr Dale Dubin: have to buy the book for more....sympathetic and parasym...

http://www.themdsite.com/graphics/ION_14c.jpg


http://www.hawaii.edu/cgi-bin/uhnews?20040720084736
As in other central nervous system diseases such as Huntington Disease and the spinocerebellar ataxias, some schizophrenia patients harbor multiple repeating regions in a specific gene, leading to unusually long chains of the amino acid glutamine. In schizophrenia, these polyglutamine repeats are found in the calcium-activated SK3 potassium channel. Whereas normal individuals can have as many as 12 glutamines repeats, some patients with schizophrenia may have SK3 channels with double this number or even more .

http://sciencematters.berkeley.edu/archives/volume1/issue7/story1.php
OMG: that pump is electrical..... and my mother is fighting wet macular degeneration.
OMG OMG OMG
hmmmmmmm raised to infinity....
back later.

http://sciencematters.berkeley.edu/archives/volume1/issue7/images/story1-3.gif A computer-generated visualization of a potassium ion channel structure. (courtesy the researchers)

....what is missing......????????????????????????????????????? ????

There is just way too much correlating info - I am flooded...thanks doc, nice job doc, don't do me any favors doc, [*grins*]
TREK1 channel may be antidepressant targetNICE, France, Aug. 15 (UPI) -- French researchers say a potassium channel called TREK1 may represent a new target for antidepressant drugs.The scientists at the Institute of Molecular and Cellular Pharmacology at the University of Nice-Sophia Antipolis said the channel may exert its effects through a signaling pathway in the brain different to that normally targeted by most conventional antidepressants, which are thought to work by increasing the level of the neurotransmitter serotonin.Michel Lazdunski and colleagues studied mice lacking the gene for the TREK1 channel. In several behavioral tests used to model depression, the mice behaved as if they had been treated with an antidepressant. In addition, they had increased serotonergic activity, and did not release as much of the stress hormone corticosterone as do normal mice in response to mild stress.Moreover, the authors report the TREK1 channel was directly inhibited by conventional antidepressants.The finding suggests small molecule "blockers" of the potassium channel might be effective therapeutically. If TREK1 is found to exert its antidepressant effects through a pathway independent of serotonin, it is possible that future therapies targeting TREK1 channels may be faster acting and may have fewer side effects than conventional antidepressants.The study appears in the journal Nature Neuroscience
action is not a switch: on, off - but volume control... University of California, Davis researchers have discovered that proteins that regulate brain-cell activity by controlling the flow of potassium (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060818175259.htm#) ions behave more like volume controls on stereos rather than on/off power switches. The research, which appears in the 19 August issue of Science, provides a new model for the behavior of critical gatekeeper proteins found in neuronal membranes.

http://scienceweek.com/2006/sw060407-4.htm

ScienceWeek

CELL BIOLOGY: ON CRYSTAL STRUCTURES OF ION CHANNELS

The following points are made by Frances M. Ashcroft (Nature 2006 440:440):

1) The cell membrane is a major barrier to ion movement, and specific proteins -- the ion channels, transporters and pumps --have evolved to transport ions across it. Ion channels are gated pores that permit the passive flow of ions down their electrochemical gradients. Ion pumps, by contrast, use the energy of ATP hydrolysis to transport ions against their electrochemical gradient. In between are the coupled transporters (antiporters and symporters), in which movement of one ion species against its electrochemical gradient is powered by the downhill movement of another ion species.

2) Over 340 human genes are thought to encode ion channels. They have important roles in such diverse processes as nerve and muscle excitation, hormone secretion, cell proliferation, sensory transduction, learning and memory, regulation of blood pressure, salt and water balance, lymphocyte proliferation, fertilization and cell death[1]. Your ability to read and understand words depends on the activity of ion channels in your eye and brain. Consequently, defects in ion-channel function often have profound physiological effects.

3) Because of their important functional roles, their membrane location, structural heterogeneity and the restricted tissue expression of some channel types, ion channels are attractive targets for drug therapy. Indeed, many existing drugs, such as local anaesthetics[2], sedatives[3], anti-anxiety agents[3], antidiabetic drugs and even antiviral therapies[1,4], exert their effects by interacting with ion channels. Our understanding of how ion channels function has been illuminated by recent breakthroughs in high-resolution structure determination and by studies of diseases that result from impaired channel function (the channelopathies).

4) In summary: Ion channels are membrane proteins, found in virtually all cells, that are of crucial physiological importance. In the past decade, an explosion in the number of crystal structures of ion channels has led to a marked increase in our understanding of how ion channels open and close, and select between permeant ions. There has been a parallel advance in research on channelopathies (diseases resulting from impaired channel function), and mutations in over 60 ion-channel genes are now known to cause human disease. Characterization of their functional consequences has afforded unprecedented and unexpected insights into ion-channel mechanisms and physiological roles.

References (abridged):

1. Ashcroft, F. M. Ion Channels and Disease (Academic Press, New York, 2000)

2. Ulbricht, W. Sodium channel inactivation: molecular determinants and modulation. Physiol. Rev. 85, 1271 1301 (2005)

3. Johnston, G. A. GABA(A) receptor channel pharmacology. Curr. Pharm. Des. 11, 1867 1868 (2005)

4. Fischer, W. B. & Sansom, M. S. Viral ion channels: structure and function. Biochim. Biophys. Acta 1561, 27 45 (2002)

5. Doyle, D. A. et al. The structure of the potassium channel: molecular basis of K+ conduction and selectivity. Science 280, 69 77 (1998)

Nature http://www.nature.com/nature

--------------------------------

Related Material:

NEUROBIOLOGY: TRIGGERS AND THE OPENING OF ION CHANNELS

The following points are made by Cynthia Czajkowski (Nature 2005 438:167):

1) Chemical signalling in the brain involves the rapid opening and closing of channels known as ligand-gated ion channels, which lie in the membranes of nerve cells. Binding of a specific activator (a ligand) to these proteins triggers the opening of an integral pore through the membrane in as little as tens of microseconds[1]. Although we know a fair amount about the structure of ligand-gated ion channels, the mechanisms by which the binding of a ligand triggers channel opening are still under debate. New work[2] identifies a network of interacting amino-acid residues in one such protein, and reveals a pathway by which changes at the protein's ligand-binding site can be propagated to its channel region. Further new work[3] identifies a proline residue that acts as a molecular switch to control channel opening. Together, the two reports provide a compelling description of the structural machinery that couples ligand binding to channel gating.

2) Communication between nerve cells takes place at junctions called synapses. When a presynaptic cell is activated, it releases neurochemicals (neurotransmitters) across the synapse that bind to ligand-gated ion channels on the surface of the postsynaptic cell. Binding of neurotransmitter causes the channels to open, allowing ions to flood across the postsynaptic-cell membrane and change the cell's activity. So ligand-gated ion channels can be thought of as transducers that rapidly convert chemical signals into an electrical output. Their opening and closing regulate information flow throughout the brain, and mutations in these channels are responsible for a number of "channelopathies", such as congenital myasthenic syndromes, epileptic disorders, and hereditary hyperekplexia.

3) Lee and Sine[2] and Lummis et al[3] examined the structures of two members of the "Cys-loop" family of ligand-gated ion channels. This family includes channels that respond to the neurotransmitters acetylcholine, serotonin, gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), and glycine. The receptors are large transmembrane proteins (molecular weight 300,000) consisting of five similar subunits arranged around a central ion-conducting channel, with each subunit contributing to the lining of the transmembrane channel. The neurotransmitter binds to the extracellular interface between two subunits. But what has long puzzled researchers is how the binding of a neurotransmitter, which is around 6 angstroms long, is translated so rapidly into the opening of an ion channel more than 50 angstroms away in the transmembrane domain of the receptor.

4) Lee and Sine[2] set out to answer this question. They used the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, whose structure was recently refined to 4-angstrom resolution[4], to identify receptor amino acids that could physically link the binding site to the channel. They then created a series of mutations, by substituting amino acids, to break these potential links, and analyzed the mutations' effects, both individually and in combinations, on channel activity. As a result, they identified a set of interacting residues that functionally and structurally link the binding site to the channel.

References (abridged):

1. Chakrapani, S. & Auerbach, A. Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA 102, 87-92 (2004)

2. Lee, W. Y. & Sine, S. M. Nature 438, 243-247 (2005)

3. Lummis, S. C. R. et al. Nature 438, 248-252 (2005)

4. Unwin, N. J. Mol. Biol. 346, 967-989 (2005)

5. Hu, X. Q., Zhang, L., Stewart, R. R. & Weight, R. R. Nature 421, 272-275 (2003)

Nature http://www.nature.com/nature

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Related Material:

NEUROBIOLOGY: ION CHANNELS AND MEMBRANE LIPIDS

The following points are made by Donald W. Hilgemann (Science 2004 304:223):

1) Ion channels spend their entire lives nestled in the lipid environment of the plasma membrane. Originally, it was thought that to operate reliably ion channels must insulate their moving parts (the "gates") from the effects of membrane lipids. The only exception to this rule seemed to be small peptide channels, such as gramicidin (1). But then, more and more ion channels turned out to be modulated by their lipid environments (2,3). The latest debate swirls around whether the voltage-sensor of voltage-gated potassium (Kv) channels can interact directly with membrane lipids (4,5).

2) The amino-terminal domain of Kv channels mediates channel inactivation by plugging the open pore from the cytoplasmic side of the plasma membrane in a ball-and-chain-like mechanism. The "ball" inactivation domain of Kv channels is positively charged and is hydrophobic. It swings freely on its tether, and can be attacked readily by proteases on the cytoplasmic side. The tether is long enough to reach the plasma membrane, and its ability to bind to negatively charged phospholipids has been characterized. Hence, there is no evident reason why the inactivation domain should not interact with anionic phospholipids on the cytoplasmic side of the plasma membrane.

3) Oliver et al (Science 2004 304:265) have demonstrated that when bound by the polyanionic phospholipid PIP2 (phosphatidylinositol 4,5-bisphosphate), the Kv amino-terminal domain can no longer plug the open Kv channel and so inactivation of the channel is relieved. This result with the Kv channel in which the ball and chain are part of the subunit, is similar to findings with other types of ion channel in which the ball and chain are part of the pore-forming subunit.

4) Oliver et al have demonstrated profound effects of another lipid involved in signal transduction, the lipid arachidonic acid (AA). AA appears to reverse the effects of PIP2 on Kv channel fast inactivation, and it can convert slowly inactivated Kv channels to rapidly inactivated channels. Antagonism between PIP2 and AA has been described for other types of K+ channels. However, Oliver et al argue that AA is acting at a site completely distinct from that of PIP2 activity. Regardless of the details, Kv channel function must now be considered a possible termination point for multiple lipid signaling pathways. This role might explain why different structures are involved in the fast N-type inactivation (ball-and-chain) of Kv channels and the fast inactivation of Na+ channels, which are not sensitive to anionic lipids.

References (abridged):

1. T. C. Hwang et al., Biochemistry 42, 13646 (2003)

2. D. W. Hilgemann et al., Sci. STKE 2001, re19 (2001)

3. R. C. Hardie, Annu. Rev. Physiol. 65, 735 (2003)

4. Y. Jiang et al., Nature 423, 33 (2003)

5. D. M. Starace et al., Nature 427, 548 (2004)

Science http://www.sciencemag.org

ScienceWeek http://scienceweek.com

:-) ... I ran in parallel with Fran (Ashcroft) (for a while) - she's our top fizzyologist here ... and Nice (nice) ... I asked them whether it'd be possible to commute into Sophia Antipolis from Toulouse ... 'mais non, rosbif' ... 'ach, les grenouilles!' ..:-)...
[[[Here's an important French scientist - Systems thinker at the Antipolis ... ... ... and also up in Paris ...
<nodetxt>Principia Cybernetica Web now offers the complete text and drawings of the book "The Macroscope" by Joël de Rosnay. </nodetxt>
de Rosnay, a molecular biologist, systems theorist, science writer, and futurologist, is presently Director of Strategy of the Cite des Sciences et de l'Industrie at La Villette (near Paris).
He is an associate of the Principia Cybernetica Project.]]]

~making it stop~

So ... the virus jumps into a host - replicates like a mad dog and then leaves.
'See ya' wouldn't want to be ya'!'

The virus (though) has a rarely seen sensitive side - and is just *so* much more than his criminal record would lead one to assume.

The virus (actually) fell in love (once) and made life - way back - when he combined his capacity for growth with the capacity of the host cell to transduce energy from the environment into matter (the Evol. Psych. description (some pages back now) on mitochondrial ATP synthase).

So life began when the capacity for replication combined with the capacity for generating energy to power the process ... ... ...
ATP (energy) ->- ATP (replication) ->- {funny that}

...warning... ...the next bit may appear a tad freaked...
ATP (energy) ->- ATP (replication) ->- ATP (neurotransmitter) ->- {funny that}

(energy) ->- emergent structure::ion channel
(replication) ->- emergent structure::dna

Life began with the bacterial cell becoming infected by the virus - and the synergy of the two organisms ->-leading to->- eukaryotic evolution.
For the most part - life (as we know it) - is predominantly bacterial life with additional properties ... ... ...

However, imagine a world in which the bacteria infected the virus.
*NEURONE*

...freaked...but true...
virus(DNA replication) within bacteria(Energy production)
-and then-
bacteria(Energy production) within virus(DNA replication) ->-
-eukaryotic cells with viral morphology (see #535)
*NEURONE*
-functionality defined by 'ion channel' rather than 'replication machinery'
*NEURONE*
-poor replicators, great agents for promoting 'ion flux' (depolarization)
(ion flux is the basis of energy transduction from out there to in here ... proton flux within the mitochondria and chloroplast)
*NEURONE*
-evolution to complexity unlike our standard model ... is not about replication of DNA - but of maximally functional ion pumps - as many trains of neural circuits - working as fast as possible - as much as possible
->-{the world of evolution moves to *thought* ... ... ...
...metamodel web, the mind as a logical structure, logic existing on a different layer of abstraction to DNA ...{Stabile posts over the previous 3 years}...
*NEURONE*
...freaked...but true...
http://www.oceansbridge.com/paintings/artists/r/rembrandt/oil-big/philosopher_reading_163