View Full Version : Borderline


Katy
06-03-06, 10:11 PM
My psychologist said I might have Borderline in addition to ADD (or exclusive).

Is Borderline the same as Bipolar or more OCD?

I'm a little confused, I always mix it up..

Thanks for any help,
Katy

speedo
06-03-06, 11:20 PM
It all depends on how you use the word.


You mean borderline personality deisorder ? It is a distinctly different disorder from ADHD or bipolar disorder.

Or does your doc mean you are borderline for some otrher condition like bipolar disorder ?


ME :D

Scattered
06-04-06, 01:37 AM
Borderline personality disorder is different than Bipolar disorder which is a mood disorder alternating between depression and manic or hypomanic episodes. Why does he feel you're borderline? Did he explain that? Borderlines usually have very intense relationships alternating between extreme idealization and extreme devaluing of others. Self harm or suicidal issues are often present. Extreme fear of abandonment and a weak sense of self are common. Many traits thatnormal ADHD folks have fit the borderline diagnosis, so I'd ask for specifics if someone gave me that diagnosis. There are several good books out there on Borderline Personality Disorder -- one is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me. There are probably newer books out there, but I found this one useful in improving my understanding of this condition. Hallowell and Ratey also discuss how Borderline can be misdiagnosed in an ADDer or how it may be comorbid (a second diagnosis) with ADHD in their book Driven to Distraction.

Scattered

Katy
06-04-06, 02:28 PM
Thanks a lot for your replies.

My psychologist said that the symptoms I show could either be a sign of emotional instable personality disorder or ADD.
Borderline personality disorder distinguishes between 2 types, one is the "classic" borderline with Self harm or suicidal issues. And the other one is the emotional instable personality disorder with emotional instability, poor impulse control, moodiness, unpredictable temper..
Sometimes I'm sure I've "only" the "emotional instable personality disorder" and other times I believe it's ADD.
The right diagnosis is really tough, since you don't necessarily (or not at all?? )
medicate emotional instable personality disorder, psychological therapy is most important.
At least as far as I know..
Or would methylphenidat also be the medication of choice?
I don't believe so..

Borderlines usually have very intense relationships alternating between extreme idealization and extreme devaluing of others. That absolutely fits me. I've the most extreme relationships from ALL the people I know (and I know quite a lot of people w/ relationship problems)
My relationships are more like Hollywood movies- what is the movie with Michael Douglas called?
I would call it love-hate relationship.
One second I love him to death and then if I get the feeling he could cheat on me or leave me I hate him so much, I wish he would be dead.
And I always think he'll cheat on me again (he cheated a couple times in the very beginning but since then he is doing EVERY POSSIBLE THING to prove his love-I don't know one single man who does for his girlfriend what he does for me- on a daily! basis) or leave me sooner or later for someone younger, better looking, etc.
These are also childhood issues, since my dad constantly cheated on the mother and finally left her and my bf was also like that in his past long relationship.
Anyways, I tend to have the co-dependent kind of relationship, I read a couple books about codependent relationships and it suits 100%..

I researched so much about ADD and emotional personality disorder (but if my psychologist who is very familar with both disorders doesn't even know, how should I know), but still don't know what disorder I've or if I might have both.

I'm thankful for any suggestions!

PS: I think I know the book I hate you don't leave me. Do you know the author's name?But I thought it's more an ADD/ADHD book..?

Scattered
06-04-06, 03:19 PM
If I can lay my hand on my book I'll get back to you with the author, of I Hate You, Don't Leave Me -- it is definately about borderline rather than specifically ADD.You might take a look at Thomas Brown's book Attention Deficit Disorder: The Unfocused Mind in Children and Adults. He discusses the role ADHD plays in emotional regulation (something that isn't in the DSM-IV yet) but which many practioneers are finding to be true. It is quite possible both things are going on, but if ADHD is part of the picture it needs to be treated or it will be difficult to make progress in any area including borderline issues. The difficulty ADDers have attending and remembering, plus impulse control issues make therapy much less effective without medical management. Have ADHD medications improved things in the past for you?

They used to tell us in counseling classes that the "map is not the terrain" meaning that the terms we use to describe mental difficulties are not the same as the condition itself. I wouldn't worry as much about what the "right" label is as much as what the most effective treatment is. Frequently a combination of medical managment and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy are a useful combination for producing change.

I hope things work out well for you.

Scattered

sloppitty-sue
06-04-06, 04:58 PM
They used to tell us in counseling classes that the "map is not the terrain" meaning that the terms we use to describe mental difficulties are not the same as the condition itself. I wouldn't worry as much about what the "right" label is as much as what the most effective treatment is.
Yes! I just learned that myself in recent years! Very true! And Katy - if you can really grasp what Scattered is saying in this quote - well, it helped me ALOT!

I DEFINITELY can understand the frustration of thinking "well, if my psychologist can't figure out what's wrong with me - how can I?" But, like Scattered mentioned, even when a psychologist DOES feel confident about giving someone one particular dx - STILL, the treatments (whether they be psychotherapy, meds, or BOTH) are still a crapshoot and may or may not work.

Try to think of it as diagnosis and treatments are a PROCESS! Even people here who say I have ADHD and depression . . . they may later find out that it was something else! It HAPPENS! And even if they maintain the same dx forever - they may need to keep trying different treatments FOREVER because nothing ever helps very much.

So - as much as it can appear that the world of "brain health" is all neat & tidy - it just ain't so! And when you hear people talk as if it is, well - you can just let them think what they want.

Hope I made SOME sense and helped SOMEWHAT.

Sincerely,
Sue

Katy
06-05-06, 09:54 PM
Thank you for your helpful replies.

You're right, I shouldn't concentrate too much on the label of my symptoms cause the terminology/the diagnosis itself doesn't cure me.
I sometimes even doubt that all these diagnosis like "emotional instable personality disorder" are that well defined as some psychologists try to make you think.
Maybe in a couple years they'll have a new term for a disorder that combines AD(H)D and some personality disorder.

The only reason I wanted to know if I've got ADHD or an emotional instable personality disorder was because -as far as I know- ADHD is sth you cannot cure since it's a brain "disorder" in contrast to the emotional instable personality disorder which you can cure by psychotherapy (at least it has nothing to do with a disorder of neurotransmitters in the brain) ! ?

Is this conclusion correct?

Thanks a lot,
Katy

Scattered
06-05-06, 10:21 PM
It is true that there is no "cure" for ADHD. However the treatment for it is very effective for most folks.

Thomas Brown in his book Attention Deficit Disorder: The Unfocused Mind in Children and Adults discusses how some neurological researchers are saying that eventually we probably need to recatgorize all mental disorders. As they learn the underlying brain functioning through brain imaging studies and gene pathways through the genome project they're finding connections and related pathways they didn't know about before. Eventually, this should lead to better (though I'm sure not perfect) classifications and better treatments.

Personality disorders can be treated, they even occasionally improve on their own in the school of life, but they're probably more difficult to treat than ADHD unless someone is very motivated.

Scattered

Katy
06-06-06, 06:13 PM
Thank you for that info, Scattered!

So with other words: emotional instable personality disorder is usually not treated with medication or at least it doesn't NEED medication the same way ADHD does ?

But if you treat emotional instable personality disorder with medication, methylphenidate would probably make it WORSE, wouldn't it?
What would be the right medications for this kind of personality disorder?

Many questions..:) Hopefully not to many.. :faint:

QueensU_girl
06-14-06, 06:31 AM
It's pretty complicated.
Combined with the fact that BPD is over-diagnosed in females.

For example, the "Impulsivity" of BPD can be the Impulsivity of ADD. (ADD is missed b/c it is seen as a Male Disorder; BPD is seen as a Female Disorder.)

BPDers can have true depression and anxiety, so treating these conditions is appropriate.

About 75% of BPDers disclose tragic trauma and abuse histories, so i think it is appropriate to also make sure you are not giving pills, just to "normalize abuse", when the real problem is being in, or coming from, a continuingly abusive family paradigm.

That family of origin-style is what leads to the emotional dysregulation, and black/white thinking, partially.

The main treatment for BPD these days is not focused on Pills. It is focused on DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy), which allows BPDers to become more functional in their Interpersonal Interactions in life.

~boots~
06-14-06, 08:14 AM
Welcome Katy :-) I am usually confused too:D It makes it much more fun :p

Scattered
06-14-06, 09:12 AM
Thank you for that info, Scattered!

So with other words: emotional instable personality disorder is usually not treated with medication or at least it doesn't NEED medication the same way ADHD does ?I'm not actually familiar with that term for a disorder. But from what I was recently reading about Borderline Disorder (back to your origianl question) medications are frequently used: everything from anti depressants to stimulent medications to mood stabilizers, etc., etc. with varying levels of effectiveness. If someone is ADD and has a personality disorder for example, they aren't likely to make as much progress in therapy until their inattention is addressed simply because they won't remember and carry the learning over to out of the therapist office situations.

But if you treat emotional instable personality disorder with medication, methylphenidate would probably make it WORSE, wouldn't it?
What would be the right medications for this kind of personality disorder?What medication might helps depends of what features of other disorders are present -- is it anxiety, depression, mood instability, inattentiveness, etc. That is going to vary from person to person and takes an on the scene specialist to figure out.

Many questions..:) Hopefully not to many.. :faint:Nope -- not to many questions, just wish I had more helpful answers!

Take care,
Scattered

PS: What QueenUgirl said is correct -- that is a common and helpful therapy for borderline issues.

Nova
06-14-06, 12:19 PM
The main treatment for BPD these days is not focused on Pills. It is focused on DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy), which allows BPDers to become more functional in their Interpersonal Interactions in life.

This, is the most effective method, for treating individuals diagnosed with Border-PD.


Peace,
Nova

Katy
06-15-06, 11:41 AM
Thank you so much for your answers, they were really helpful.

@scattered:

What medication might helps depends of what features of other disorders are present -- is it anxiety, depression, mood instability, inattentiveness, etc. That is going to vary from person to person and takes an on the scene specialist to figure out.

I show all 4 features that you mentioned: anxiety, depression, mood instability, inattentiveness.
Even though I wouldn't call it depression, rather depressive mood. I think real depression is different.
And my depressive feelings is caused by different things like that I don't achieve the work I'm suppose to achieve, that my 8-year relationship ended about a year ago and I don't manage to get over it. I would say that was the initiator when most of my depressive symptoms occured and since then I cry myself to sleep almost every night.
Methylphenidate probably makes it worse, and I don't want to take any anti-depressants since I want to deal with the situation (loosing my partner) in a "conservative" way which means by therapy and time passing by..

What do you think?

@queensU girl:
About 75% of BPDers disclose tragic trauma and abuse histories, so i think it is appropriate to also make sure you are not giving pills, just to "normalize abuse", when the real problem is being in, or coming from, a continuingly abusive family paradigm.

That family of origin-style is what leads to the emotional dysregulation, and black/white thinking, partially.

The main treatment for BPD these days is not focused on Pills. It is focused on DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy), which allows BPDers to become more functional in their Interpersonal Interactions in life. What exactly is meant by abuse- sexual or physical abuse only??

I didn't have any of this kind of abuse (at least not that I remember) in my childhood- but my parents, especially my mum, raised me in a very inconstitent way.
I also had a lot of different nannies until I turned 4 which were more interested in anything but taking care of a little child.
Moreover my sister became seriously sick when she was a baby and had to stay in the hospital for about a year. My parents spent almost any free time on her (they both worked a lot therefore had very little time anyways).

My parents were also lying about all kind of stuff.
My dad constantly cheated on my mum 24/7 throughout their marriage.
And started with a long-time affair with a girl my age when I was about 16 (she looked older though and seduced my dad- because she's very interested in money- I only mention that to state that he doesn't like girls- she could have passed for 25, but he was still 50 at that time!)
That girl developed into an absolute psycho and stalker trying to burn my mother's house and other much sicker stuff.
My mum was the whole time too weak and too inconsitent to leave my dad (she rather cried and complained) before he left her after 30 years of marriage.

Besides that family drama:
All of the men I loved (I had very few boyfriends) lied and cheated on me big time in the beginning (even though they later regreted it and were all extremly devoted to the relationship).

Botton line is:
Does that count as abuse and could be enough to develop borderline disorder?

My sister has tried to commit suicide a couple times (fortunately they found her and could rescue her life in the emergency room).

I never seriously thought about suicide or hurting myself in a physical way (I do it in an emotional way all the time though).

But physical self abuse doesn't necessarily have to occur in borderline, has it?

Anyways, now you know my "life story" in the short version.

I have a very hard time trusting people (since every person I loved an trusted abused my trust.)
I also have the permanent fear of being left for a young woman when I'm a little "older" (I'm about 30 now) and also look older.
I'm almost 100% sure my current boyfriend will leave me eventually for a young better looking woman. This fear among others destroys my whole relationship (especially because he's around young woman A LOT because of his job and has always had much younger womEn, I'm also 10 years younger than he is- and he would get every 20 year younger woman he wants- they're all crazy about him)

God, I wrote more details then I probably should, but these feelings are killing me and are on my mind 24/7!

I still don't know if it's borderline, Add, Adhd, sth complete different or all of it?

What is your guess after reading all this?

Thanks a lot for your kind support,
Katy

Scattered
06-15-06, 12:34 PM
You've had a very traumatic past from what you shared and very inconsistent care giving. Everyone is different but such early lack of security could lead to any number of later problems including Borderline Personality Disorder.

I've been cocurrently reading two books called Listening to Prozac and Shadow Syndromes. They both discuss the idea of kindling -- that is how early life experiences can lower our threshold for depression and other problems and make it take less of a stressor in subsequent cases. The overall conclusion they drew is that waiting to treat depression can let it progress in many cases to the point where it actually changes the brain and makes subsequent depressions more likely. Now, you said you are getting therapy -- so you are getting treatment, but I would encourage you to also consider medication if your therapist feels that is needed in addition to counseling. It is not a sign of weakness -- you just had a lot of early assaults made of your emotional well being and sense of safety.

There is also good research out there indicating that regular exercise (ie: walking is fine or whatever you enjoy) can really stabilize moods and improve your overall mental health, so I encourage you to add that to your routine as well.

Thank you for sharing part of your story.

Take care,
Scattered

clueless
06-30-06, 01:27 PM
Katy,

I don't know if you'll come back to read this, but most people that are diagnosed with bipolar disorder and quite a few ADD'ers actually have borderline personality disorder.

It's a much-understood disorder in that it's under-publicized and under-diagnosed. Many psychologists are afraid of telling their borderline patients about it because they don't want to get them permanently screwed. There's a lot of discrimination out there against borderlines, needlessly so.

That fact that you have a good therapist that told you that TRUTH is awesome. Feel confident about his/her professionalism. They have ethics, and that's very rare these days.

I read a lot of posts in the bipolar forum that remind me of borderline personality disorder. It is not as complicated and mysterious a diagnosis as one might think. How old are you? Because many teenagers exhibit the symptoms of BPD and grow out of them over time.

All BPD is in a nutshell is: hating oneself, self-destructing, and manipulating others to get their way. With a lot of therapy and a lot of self-awareness, you can overcome this disorder. It does not have to overcome you. I had a really close friend who was borderline, and she didn't want help. The fact that you see a therapist at all means that you are going to make it. You are TRYING. Most borderlines DON'T EVEN TRY. They hate themselves, and want to die much of the time.

(((Katy))) The good thing about borderlines is that they are incredibly bright, very creative, and can also be INCREDIBLY empathetic (as evidenced through their poetry and the way they relate to others). They have an artistic temperament much of the time.

You're in my thoughts, and I'm rooting for you. Please keep us posted, if you do come back here.

STYLe4MotiOn
12-25-06, 08:17 PM
My psychologist said I might have Borderline in addition to ADD (or exclusive).

Is Borderline the same as Bipolar or more OCD?

I'm a little confused, I always mix it up..

Thanks for any help,
KatyBorderline is a psychological disorder ('personality disorder')
Bipolar is a disorder with a physical basis.
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is physical too.
ADHD is physical; not enough dopamine in the brain so we go crazy.

These disorders share symptoms, but are not the same thing.

Most borderliners have ADHD and bipolarity, but not all ADHDers/bipolars have borderline.

Hope I cleared things up a bit :)

auntchris
02-22-07, 11:01 PM
I Hate You - dont leave me is by Jerold J Kreisman M.D. and Hal Straus