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speedo

06-25-06, 01:39 PM

Here is an interesting article which takes a fresh view
of ADHD and giftedness...

http://borntoexplore.org/gifted.htm

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="24">
</td><td valign="top"> <big>Gifted or ADD?</big>

Parents, if your child seems bright then please, please, PLEASE have a qualified psychologist evaluate him or her for giftedness BEFORE you accept a diagnosis of ADD and medication. 

Gifted children and adults are at high risk for being identified as ADD. Most people, including most medical professionals, do not realize giftedness is often associated with the following behaviors:

underachieving
anger and frustration
high energy, intensity, fidgeting, impulsivity
individualistic, nonconforming, stubborn
disorganization, sloppy, poor handwriting 
forgetful, absentminded, daydreams
emotional, moody
low interest in details
Moreover, sometimes adults do not realize a child is gifted because they don't really know what "gifted" means. Or they may believe a child is both ADD and gifted. As a result, many gifted children these days are being medicated for a brain defect they probably don't have. 

Most people have an incorrect view of gifted children and adults. The "gifted" are supposed to be model students, teaching themselves how to spell and perfect their grammar, win spelling bees, have perfect social skills and become neurosurgeons. This is true of SOME gifted children and adults. Many others, however, act out and space out in boring school settings, and their increasing anger and frustration may lead to oppositional behavior and underachievement. They may have sloppy handwriting because of fast thought processes, miss details, and be unorganized and forgetful. Gifted adults are not always easy to spot, either. They are housewives, teachers, and carpenters, and they may not even realize they are gifted. Some even believe they are stupid.

There is some evidence that as many as half of all kids with IQs above 130 get below average grades, and in one study 13% of high school drop outs were gifted. In another study, a full 25% of children diagnosed with ADHD tested so high in creativity tests they qualified for state scholarships. I recently spoke with a consultant for the gifted who said about half of the gifted boys referred to her had been told they were probably ADD. Complicating matters is the uneven types of intelligence many people have. People labeled ADD often have a "visual/spatial" type of intelligence that confuses many teachers and parents. They might have trouble reading or spelling but have outstanding abstract reasoning abilities and become bored very quickly in traditional schools. 

Proponents of the gifted assert that it is usually problems with the school environment that are to blame for behavior problems and underachievement, not any problem with the child. You will not hear this from school officials or most psychiatrists, however. They believe it must be a brain defect. 

Parents, if your child seems bright then please, please, PLEASE have a qualified person evaluate him or her for giftedness BEFORE you accept a diagnosis of ADD and medication. 

Gifted children MUST have an education that fits their needs. If they don't, they should be expected to act out or space out, and it is NOT their fault! Placing them on medication so that they can tolerate a more boring school is absurd. There are much better options available, such as home schooling, alternative schools and grade skipping. 

How is "Gifted" Defined? There is no consensus as to how "gifted" should be defined, except everyone seems to agree that people with an IQ of 130 or greater are definitely gifted. But people with lower overall IQs can also be gifted by other avenues:

Creative-Gifted: Demonstrated creativity or high score on the Torrence Creativity test (above an IQ of 120 there is no correlation between IQ and creativity scores);
Demonstration of exceptional skills in a domain, like math or art;
Visual-Spatial thinkers are often gifted but may score below their actual level of intelligence on IQ tests (very high abstract reasoning, visual-spatial skills);
Sometimes "gifted" is defined as the smartest two percent, which correlates to an IQ of 125.
The fuzzy nature of the term "gifted" is apparent when one considers an idiot savant who cannot handle simple math but is a gifted pianist. 

The IQ cutoff of 130 is completely arbitrary. It's not like one child with an IQ of 130 is gifted rather than ADD and the next child with an IQ of 125 is "disordered" simply because he does not meet the threshold for giftedness. A child with an IQ of 120 may be considered "bright" or "superior" rather than gifted, but is just as likely to be bored by a school ciriculum designed for kids with an IQ of 85.

Of special interest here is the concept of the visual/spatial thinker. These people are at high risk for an ADD diagnosis and are also likely to be gifted. They are often brighter than their IQ scores. Visual/spatial thinkers often have outstanding abilities in abstract reasoning, visual/spatial skills, and problem solving. However, they have relative weaknesses in processing auditory information and sequencing, and are often poor at spelling and phonics. Such people are also called "right-brained." Visual/spatial children are at high risk for school problems because they become bored very quickly and dislike repetition and drills. They are likely to act out or space out in school. Such children often need to be accelerated or homeschooled. The Gifted Development Center has done quite a bit of research on visual-spatial learners and has some excellent information at www.gifteddevelopment.com/VSL_List.htm (http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/VSL_List.htm).

Why do Gifted people act the way they do? One reason is that gifted people become bored easily in settings that average people find tolerable (like school or work). Boredom leads to restlessness, and restlessness leads to all sorts of problems. Fast thought processes can lead not only to boredom but to poor handwriting, errors in simple work, disorganization and sloppiness.

In addition, brighter people tend to exhibit more "overexcitabilities" than average people. This has been well demonstrated in studies. The five overexcitabilities that have been identified are:

<table border="1" height="124" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="19" width="25%">Overexcitibilities</td> <td height="19" width="75%">Negative Perspective</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="18" width="25%">Physical</td> <td height="18" width="75%">hyperactive, fidgety, restless, impulsive</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="19" width="25%">Emotional</td> <td height="19" width="75%">moody, temperamental, prone to depression and anxiety</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="19" width="25%">Intellectual</td> <td height="19" width="75%">head in the clouds, inattentive to surroundings</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="19" width="25%">Sensual</td> <td height="19" width="75%">picky eater, over-reacts to physical discomforts</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="19" width="25%">Imaginational</td> <td height="19" width="75%">daydreams, inattentive</td> </tr> </tbody></table> For more information about the concept of overexcitabilities see Overexcitabilities Used to Predict Giftedness. (http://borntoexplore.org/overexcite.htm)

Getting an Assessment:
Your school system may have some resources available as a start. If you use them, you must be on your guard, because serious mistakes can be made. Of special concern is the inability of school to identify very gifted student, such as those with IQs of 160, or 170. Such students are more common than most people realize and require VERY different schooling. A child with an IQ of 170 is completely different from a child with an IQ of 130. I recommend that parents go beyond the school system if at all possible. 

Look for a QUALIFIED psychologist. You can start with a list maintained by Hoagies Gifted Education Page at www.hoagiesgifted.org/psych.htm (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/). An appropriate assessment is going to cost you some money. BUT, your child's future depends on it, so open up your wallet and start counting. Make sure the consultant knows about creative/gifted characteristics and visual/spatial learning styles, because these are common with kids labeled ADD. If your child will be tested for creativity (recommended for ADD children) the Torrence Test for creativity should be used. An outside consultant is far more likely to give you an unbiased opinion about what you need to do for your child's education. Most people associated with the school are more interested in preserving the status quo at the school rather than in helping your child. School personnel are extremely unlikely to advocated grade skipping, for example.

Grade Skipping:
This is an excellent option for some kids, but you can expect the school to oppose it because of ignorance and misplaced egalitarianism. Children without any serious existing social problems should adjust quite well. I have found excellent information about grade skipping at Hoagies Gifted (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/), including information about studies (all studies support grade skipping) and how to put together a portfolio in support of a grade skip. Parents of underachieving gifted students may have an especially difficult time convincing the school their child deserves a skip, since personnel tend to believe such children don't deserve to be accelerated. 

A very important point with grade skipping is that it is done on a trial basis for six to ten weeks. It will be easy to see if it's not working, and the child is simply place back in his or her former level.

Great resources at Hoagies Gifted: 
Advocating for a Grade Skip: A Portfolio of Research (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/portfol.htm)
Grade Skipped and Successful (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/gradesk.htm)

Another method of acceleration is to allow a child to attend higher grades for certain subjects. For example, a 2nd grade child who is ahead in math, but not in reading, would visit a 3rd grade classroom for math. 

Enrichment Programs
School "Gifted" programs usually are in the form of enrichment rather than acceleration. These programs have drawbacks and are not usually as successful as acceleration. Such programs can backfire on the students because they are identified publicly as gifted and may become afraid of failing when they get back to their regular class. Or, they may feel like they are being punished for being smart by having to do more work. An excellent essay on the subject posted at Hoagies Gifted is "Horizontal Enrichment vs. Vertical Acceleration (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/enrich.htm)." 

Alternative Education:
Homeschooling is by far the most popular option and growing rapidly in popularity. This is an outstanding option for parents who can do it. People worry WAY too much about "socialization." Kids these days don't learn socialization skills at school, they learn anti-socialization skills. Like teasing, bullying, and how to form clicks and exclude anyone who doesn't "fit in". The school-yard and bus-ride pecking order is similar to "Lord of the Flies." Often gifted children and children identified as ADD take the brunt of this sort of abuse and may be traumatized for life. There are plenty of socialization opportunities for homeschoolers, including sports, clubs, playing with friends, camps, volunteering, etc. 

Homeschooled children are, on average, ahead of their peers academically, often by several years. And they spend less time studying because there is less time wasted. Homeschooled children are eagerly accepted by colleges, where they perform BETTER than other children. Gifted children usually do very well when they are homeschooled. Studies are showing that homeschooled children are getting a much better education that kids in the public schools (especially in the U.S., partly because standards in American public schools are so low.) 

The specific requirements for homeschooling vary. In the U.S., check with your state. In some regions, children are allowed to attend public school on a part-time basis. 

There is a tremendous amount of information about homeschooling on the Internet, and there is no reason for me to duplicate that. An excellent website to start with is The Homeschool Legal Defense Association (http://www.hslda.org/). You can find regional requirements from this website.

There are also alternative types of schools, such as the Montessori School. For more information see my page on Alternative Education (http://borntoexplore.org/addsvs.htm).

Be Cautious With Labels
Labeling a child "gifted" can cause problems. Children who are told they succeed because they are smart often fear failure. They feel they are judged by their level of intelligence and success is due not to effort, but to intelligence. Failure means they may not be as smart as everyone thinks. Therefore, they may avoid trying anything unless they are certain to succeed. 

It is much better to tell a child he or she is being advanced because of hard work, because that encourages more effort in the future. I tell my son he is a better reader because he reads more than his friends, not because he is smarter. And that he is better in math because he works with numbers more than his friends. For more information see the article "Praise Children for Effort, Not Intelligence, Study Says (http://borntoexplore.org/praise.htm)." 

Can't Someone Be Both Gifted and ADD?
If by "ADD" you mean they meet the diagnostic criteria for ADD, then absolutely. But that doesn't mean they have a brain defect. Remember that ADD is really just a description of behavior that MAY OR MAY NOT be caused by a brain defect.

The environmental causes of brain defects leading to ADD include things like lead poisoning and exposure to drugs as a fetus. These factors also reduce IQ. So it seems rather improbable that a high-IQ person also has such a brain defect. Not impossible, but not likely, either.

You cannot tell whether ADD-like behavior in a gifted person is normal gifted behavior or caused by a brain defect. It's simply not possible. I've read that you can try and identify ADD in gifted people based on whether the gifted person tends to finish the projects they start. I disagree. There is natural temperament variation with regard to convergent and divergent thinking. Divergent thinking is perfectly normal and is related to creative thinking and disorganization. Under MBTI temperament theory, "Perceivers" prefer to start projects rather than finish them, and tend to be disorganized and run late for appointments. A gifted Perceiver with overexcitabilities will have a very strong drive to start new projects. Finishing projects and not starting so many new ones is definitely a learned skill for such people. 

The bottom line is that you cannot tell if a gifted person's behavior is due to a brain defect. So why identify them as having a brain defect?

If Meds Work, Then Why Not Use Them?
Stimulant medications allow gifted children and adults to attend to things they otherwise find too boring. That is exactly how the medications feel, too. They make boring things interesting. Like organizing toys instead of learning how to play chess, practicing addition instead of learning multiplication, or filing papers instead of troubleshooting coorporate problems.

Stimulants allow gifted people to thrive in environments in which they were not meant to be. A child who is teaching himself division should not be required to spend endless hours in school practicing 5 + 4. An adult with abstract reasoning abilities in the 99th percentile should not try and spend four hours filing. The solution to problem behavior in the Gifted is to change the environment, not to change the Gifted person's brain. 

Medications DO work, if your goal is to shove a square peg into a round hole. But is that worthy goal? Why can't the Gifted be different? Why should they have to pretend to be like everyone else? Why should a child with an IQ of 140 be forced to twiddle his thumbs for six hours a day in order to please the teacher, and be happy about it? Does this make sense?

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happycat

06-25-06, 02:47 PM

Thanks Speedo,

I'm a little skeptical about this article, though--or maybe it's just that I don't like the author reffering to add as a brain defect, vs a chemicle imbalance, I don't know.

All the "symptoms" the author lists could just as easily be from ADHD...it seems the only differing factor between those who are gifted, and those who have ADHD, is IQ--I don't quite buy that either (b/c add is not a brain defect, and from what I understand, has nothing to do with intelligence).

My eldest sister skipped two grades in school, and started college when she was 16. She also won all the awards, went to Harvard, etc....basically, a really really smart girl. Not sure if she was "gifted," but she is smart. Interestingly, she has the lowest IQ amongst us three sisters (though still above average). But niether my other sister nor I were ever able to match up to my eldest sister (at least in academics).

My other sister (who I think is def. adHd) skipped one grade as well, but then was put back because the teacher got tired of her always raising her hand, blurting out the correct answer before other kids could even process the question, and essentially just being hyper and "immature." I actually think this sister may be gifted, but has never realized her potential because of poor organizational and social skills, combined with low self confidence in her abilities (like so many adders, I guess).

By the time I started school, I think my mom had had enough of her kids skipping grades and running into issues with fitting in with their peers--so I did school the regular way, which is fine by me :)

Proscrire

06-25-06, 03:09 PM

Thanks Speedo,

I'm a little skeptical about this article, though--or maybe it's just that I don't like the author reffering to add as a brain defect, vs a chemicle imbalance, I don't know.
I have to add my skepticism too. My intellegence actively PREVENTED my diagnosis. I was smart; where was the problem? I don't know WHY my teachers didnt see going from A's to E's and back in a manner of months EVER YEAR as a problem. My parent's tried to get me help but the counselors just kept saying well she's smart but a teenager. This article seemed rather biased. I'll wait for the peer reviewed medical stuff.

speedo

06-25-06, 03:20 PM

Maybe I read it differently..

I read the article as saying in effect; It is not the ADHD, it is the educational system, and that really bright people are often just "different" because they are really bright.
Furthermore they suggest that too many of our brightest people are labeled as "disordered" instead of recognizing their giftednes, leading to a defacto punishment of our societies brightest people for just being different...

In fact, my experience with my pdoc was that she stated to me that very bright people are sometimes dx'd with adhd when they should not be.... LOL, It turns out I have adhd anyway.. :p

Me :D

I have to add my skepticism too. My intellegence actively PREVENTED my diagnosis. I was smart; where was the problem? I don't know WHY my teachers didnt see going from A's to E's and back in a manner of months EVER YEAR as a problem. My parent's tried to get me help but the counselors just kept saying well she's smart but a teenager. This article seemed rather biased. I'll wait for the peer reviewed medical stuff.

Nova

06-25-06, 03:42 PM

Here's to some of us being 'different', Speedo. :D
(toasting you in my mind)

Nova

Maybe I read it differently..

Furthermore they suggest that too many of our brightest people are labeled as "disordered" instead of recognizing their giftednes, leading to a defacto punishment of our societies brightest people for just being different...

SB_UK

06-25-06, 05:12 PM

This is real interesting ...

Proponents of the gifted assert that it is usually problems with the school environment that are to blame for behavior problems and underachievement, not any problem with the child. You will not hear this from school officials or most psychiatrists, however. They believe it must be a brain defect.

Particularly ...

problems with the school environment ... not ... the child. You will not hear this from school officials or most psychiatrists, however. They believe it must be a brain defect.

Pity that we don't know of any representatives of ... the school or psych establishments. Would be nice to see if They believe it must be a brain defect ... erroneously, of course, because just as you read it Speedo, and as the author asserts ... it is usually problems with the school environment that are to blame for behavior problems and underachievement, not any problem with the child. You will not hear this from school officials or most psychiatrists, however. They believe it must be a brain defect.

Good find!

:-) ... SB.

HighFunctioning

06-25-06, 05:42 PM

Pity that we don't know of any representatives of ... the school or psych establishments. Would be nice to see if They believe it must be a brain defect ... erroneously, of course, because just as you read it Speedo, and as the author asserts ... it is usually problems with the school environment that are to blame for behavior problems and underachievement, not any problem with the child. You will not hear this from school officials or most psychiatrists, however. They believe it must be a brain defect.



Educational systems have difficulty accomodating for deviance in general, not simply ADHD and/or high intelligence. These professionals operate with the given that what they are doing is correct as it is the accepted standard. I see the same scenario in the work place.

But to put a shift on perspective here, is school really about learning (at least, as it directly appears within the model)? School is about meta-education, not education. Are they testing one on history, or on how well one takes notes, pays attention, and how organized one is? As I see education as an empirically-based filter -- taking characteristics of a narrowly defined idea of success, as observed, and defining a narrow model -- in the minds of these people, they are correct. If to be defective is to not fit into this model, then nothing will change their minds.

We can easily open up the filter for those Gifted/ADHD individuals to peform better, but then the filter isn't doing it's job anymore, is it?

Proscrire

06-25-06, 06:01 PM

I'm married to a teacher, who is himself from a family of teachers. It is not the teachers'job, nor do they have the time to deal with this "meta-education" It's my husband's job to teach his kids how to correctly write a good research paper. That;s what they'll be graded on. Not how organized or well behaved a kid is. That's the PARENTS' job. And if all that was required for "gifted-not-actually-ADHD" kids to excell is to give them the freedom and an "open-filter" then these kids should excel when they go to the more self-reliant structure of university. Yet, in most cases this is not what happens; the kid crashs and burns.

Do I think gifted kids are misdiagnosed? On occasion. But reseacrh and personal experience has shown that in the case of gifted children, lack of diagnosis is more likely. As quoted in Solden's "Women with ADHD"-"I have a PH.D and I can't balance my checkbook."

OK, getting off my soap box now.

speedo

06-25-06, 06:20 PM

In my case, I was very bright, and performed poorly in school. I was a gifted child, and recognized as such. While I performed poorly in the public school system , I thrived in college. I was NOT, however, diagnosed with ADHD until the age of 52.

Me :D

I'm married to a teacher, who is himself from a family of teachers. It is not the teachers'job, nor do they have the time to deal with this "meta-education" It's my husband's job to teach his kids how to correctly write a good research paper. That;s what they'll be graded on. Not how organized or well behaved a kid is. That's the PARENTS' job. And if all that was required for "gifted-not-actually-ADHD" kids to excell is to give them the freedom and an "open-filter" then these kids should excel when they go to the more self-reliant structure of university. Yet, in most cases this is not what happens; the kid crashs and burns.

Do I think gifted kids are misdiagnosed? On occasion. But reseacrh and personal experience has shown that in the case of gifted children, lack of diagnosis is more likely. As quoted in Solden's "Women with ADHD"-"I have a PH.D and I can't balance my checkbook."

OK, getting off my soap box now.

SB_UK

06-25-06, 06:49 PM

~HF(...accepted standard...)~

If the mind is our instrument of evolution now, and evolution occurs much more quickly as a result ... then 'accepted standard' might be seen as legacy or anachronism. Once upon a time - it was fine, but now 'no.' The basic format of buncha' kids sitting down. copying from a teacher writing notes up in front, questions kept to a minimum, *rote learning* and examinations as a measure of success --- is ostensibly still the system which I see our kids being fed into ... just doesn't seem so different from how I imagine a classroom of a coupla' thousand years ago might have operated.

~HF(...meta-education...)~
~HF(...takes notes, pays attention, organized...)~

Are these current 'meta-' though [i]...:-)...?...:-)... or legacy meta- ...:-)...?...:-)...
I believe that if we were to ask that question to the Institution ... the gormless monster would answer --- 'learning first' with the 'secondary benefits' of 'how to learn' (meta-) as welcome 'secondaries'. As an ADDer though, I believe we learn the skill of how to shift our tendency to get down as deep as we can into any given subject ... to shift it over ... into a more superficial technique - one which we abhor - but which 'does the job' ... of achieving some arbitrary score on some arbitrary test ...
As the mind progresses and methods for teaching remain static, we run the risk of boring the ADDer into delinquency - as they say - 'don't bore the ADDer!' ... 'no good can come of it ... ' ...:-)...

~HF(...defective is to not fit into this model...)~

Education is too important. We need a new model - it needs to be dynamic, and we need to start feeding kiddy minds with technology. I only advocate such radical change in education --- education is meta- everything else, after all.
Learning has to shift more towards self-directed questioning and learning.
I very much fear that we're shifting into a 'listen to the expert' society, as we overcomplicate life, and disciplines grow ever more specialised - sprouting sub-disciplines
... sub-sub
... sub-sub-sub ...
... glug-glug-glug ...
... ... ... nothing a coupla' well placed depth charges couldn't cure (though) ...:-)...

~HF(...the filter ... the filter [wouldn't be] doing it's job anymore...)~

... might be seen as legacy filter or ... anaconda ...:-)... with J-Lo and a snake which even Ian would choose not to invite in for tea and cucumber sandwiches.

SB.

HighFunctioning

06-25-06, 06:56 PM

It's my husband's job to teach his kids how to correctly write a good research paper. That;s what they'll be graded on. Not how organized or well behaved a kid is.

Ahhh... but it's about the perspective... He/She will be graded on:

His ability to write a research paper (the obvious goal)!
Timeliness (if the paper isn't turned in on time, don't many teachers give reduced or zero points?)
Organization. Both the organization of the paper (usually affects the grade of the paper) and the person (if he loses the paper, he doesn't get a grade, right?)
Attention. Easily could miss details, etc. Could miss the announcement of an assignment (in which temporal media may be the only available communication channel)

Now, admittedly, some of these are fundamental to good research paper writing, but at the same time, students usually aren't allowed to prove themselves competent in the way they choose themselves. It is usually entirely up to the teacher/instructor/professor. Most that I've seen aren't very flexible in teaching methods, and therefore, in end effect, it's about adapting to the standards of the teacher/professor in learning, as well as learning itself (though maybe not to a high standard, but it depends), not simply learning in itself.

If one grows intolerant of school or decides not to persue further education because of past experiences, then that is also filtering. When I use the word "filtering", I do not imply a conscious effort. I am simply referring to the overall effect of school, from kindergarden to training classes during employment. Even if this filtering isn't intended, it seems to be happening.

And if all that was required for "gifted-not-actually-ADHD" kids to excell is to give them the freedom and an "open-filter" then these kids should excel when they go to the more self-reliant structure of university. Yet, in most cases this is not what happens; the kid crashs and burns.

I don't think it's about lacking structure. It's about not having the right structure. The structure needs to be adaptable, not nonexistent.

Here's a thread about class structure: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23725

Do I think gifted kids are misdiagnosed? On occasion. But reseacrh and personal experience has shown that in the case of gifted children, lack of diagnosis is more likely. As quoted in Solden's "Women with ADHD"-"I have a PH.D and I can't balance my checkbook."

Or diagnosed and ignored. Parents also need to realize that being in the wrong classroom environment is more than simply going a little farther in life. Considering that a child spends 7 hours a day at school, it can have real effects motivationally and even socially. Parents should not attempt to try to push their children into the box even further by forcing them to learn at an average rate, while playing on weaknesses at the same time (organization, learning-style differences, etc.)

Hyperion

06-25-06, 09:59 PM

Speedo, you know I like you, but you also know that I have to tear into this crap:

Gifted children and adults are at high risk for being identified as ADD. Most people, including most medical professionals, do not realize giftedness is often associated with the following behaviors:

underachieving
anger and frustration
high energy, intensity, fidgeting, impulsivity
individualistic, nonconforming, stubborn
disorganization, sloppy, poor handwriting 
forgetful, absentminded, daydreams
emotional, moody
low interest in details

While this is not a formal diagnostic, all of these symptoms are consistent with ADHD. They are not "normal" behaviors when they cause serious impairment in multiple life areas, and they are not necessarily signs of "giftedness." I say this as someone who was in "gifted" classes for most of his life, "giftedness" and ADHD are two separate issues. Some kids in gifted classes will display ADHD symptoms, but most will not. Some kids in normal classes will display ADHD symptoms, but most do not. Some kids in special ed classes will display ADHD symptoms, although there most kids will display some sort of disability. Some kids, like me when I was in school, will wind up spending half of their day in "gifted" classes and half of their day in special ed classes because of well-meaning half-wits like the crew at borntoexplore.org.

Moreover, sometimes adults do not realize a child is gifted because they don't really know what "gifted" means. Or they may believe a child is both ADD and gifted. As a result, many gifted children these days are being medicated for a brain defect they probably don't have. 

Ah. Medication. Funny how it all comes down to medication. If a kid has these problems, and is given medication, and the medication alleviates the symptoms and allows him to work up to his potential and have a good life, I fail to see the issue.

Most people have an incorrect view of gifted children and adults. The "gifted" are supposed to be model students, teaching themselves how to spell and perfect their grammar, win spelling bees, have perfect social skills and become neurosurgeons. This is true of SOME gifted children and adults. Many others, however, act out and space out in boring school settings, and their increasing anger and frustration may lead to oppositional behavior and underachievement. They may have sloppy handwriting because of fast thought processes, miss details, and be unorganized and forgetful. Gifted adults are not always easy to spot, either. They are housewives, teachers, and carpenters, and they may not even realize they are gifted. Some even believe they are stupid.

Hmmm. Again, this would support the conclusion that some "gifted" kids have ADHD. In fact, this paragraph is equally true whether it's discussing "gifted" kids or regular kids.

There is some evidence that as many as half of all kids with IQs above 130 get below average grades,
This is pants-wettingly funny if you stop and think about it. Really. Did you know that half of all students overall get below average grades? Reminds me of the (apocryphal) story about the student meeting with her thesis advisor: "Professor, I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, but half the students in the class scored below the median on the last exam."

Proponents of the gifted assert that it is usually problems with the school environment that are to blame for behavior problems and underachievement, not any problem with the child. You will not hear this from school officials or most psychiatrists, however. They believe it must be a brain defect. 

If school is the only area in which difficulties arise, then this might make sense. However, my experience has been that many of these kids likely have issues outside of school too. I love how the "proponents" must be right. Clearly they know more about children than school officials, and more about neurological development disorders than psychiatrists. Again, kinda funny if you stop to think about it, although not quite as hilarious as the one aove.

Parents, if your child seems bright then please, please, PLEASE have a qualified person evaluate him or her for giftedness BEFORE you accept a diagnosis of ADD and medication. 
Here's the thing: I don't see a problem of gifted kids being unnecessarily medicated. If they don't have ADHD, they're unlikely to be medicated in the first place. If they are medicated unnecessarily, they would likely stop the meds since they wouldn't work.

However, my own experience was that the opposite occurred. It was pretty obvious to most teachers and school officials that I was gifted when I entered 3rd grade reading at an 8th grade reading level. However, somehow the ADHD symptoms seemed to have passed over everyone's head until I got to college. It was because of well-meaning know-nothings like this, who kept saying "it's not ADD, he's just gifted" that it took that long to get help. Had I not been lucky enough to have gone to a college with an excellent neuropsych department, with a Dean of Students who took the time to sit and talk to me and go over my records and realize that there was something wrong and suggesting help, I likely would not have finished college.

Gifted children MUST have an education that fits their needs. If they don't, they should be expected to act out or space out, and it is NOT their fault!
I agree. My experience was that gifted kids are put into accelerated classes that meet their needs, but that gifted kids with ADD will still have difficulties there. Furthermore, while it is not the kids' fault, eventually they will have to function in the real world, where you don't get special accomodations. If you just put these kids into special classes without giving them any kind of help, you're not preparing them for life after school, you're preparing them for life in an institution of some sort, either psychiatric or correctional.

There are much better options available, such as home schooling, alternative schools and grade skipping. 

I don't know about the first two options, but grade skipping is actually the last thing that you want to do with a kid like this. Trust me. The kid can handle the more difficult concepts just fine, but you're putting a kid whose organizational skills are already behind his peers, and putting him in a situation where he will be expected to be as organized as older kids?

The IQ cutoff of 130 is completely arbitrary. It's not like one child with an IQ of 130 is gifted rather than ADD and the next child with an IQ of 125 is "disordered" simply because he does not meet the threshold for giftedness.
This is true only in the sense that the stupidity cancels itself out. She is confusing IQ scores and ADHD impairment, when there is no relation. It is only ecause she erroneously believes that a kid with an IQ above 130 can't have ADD that we get the ridiculous assertion that a score of 125 means ADD but 130 means gifted. A kid is considered "disordered" based on whether he meets the criteria for the disorder, regardless of IQ score. A kid is considered "gifted," regardless of any other neurological disorders, if he scores above a certain level on an IQ or other intelligence test.

Oh, and if the author had bothered to actually research IQ tests, she would know why 130 is not arbitrary: On SD15 IQ tests, such as the WAIS-III, an IQ of 130 represents the cutoff after which one is more than a single standard deviation from the mean. A score between 85-115 is within one standard deviation from the mean in either direction, so 100-115 is within one standard deviation above mean. A score from 115-130 is one standard deviation above mean. A score from 130-145 is two standard deviations above mean. A score above 145 is three standard deviations above mean, and since we only make up about 1/1000 of the population, there's not much data for what it really means, intelligence-wise. The point is that there are very real, solid reasons for using 130 as a cutoff, it represents a point at which scores above that point drop off dramatically.

In addition, brighter people tend to exhibit more "overexcitabilities" than average people. This has been well demonstrated in studies.
Which studies? Keep in mind that there is less and less available data the higher up on the scale you go, because there are fewer sujects.

Your school system may have some resources available as a start. If you use them, you must be on your guard, because serious mistakes can be made. Of special concern is the inability of school to identify very gifted student, such as those with IQs of 160, or 170. Such students are more common than most people realize and require VERY different schooling. A child with an IQ of 170 is completely different from a child with an IQ of 130. I recommend that parents go beyond the school system if at all possible. 

There's only one slight problem here. The WAIS-III, which is the standard IQ test used by psychologists and psychiatrists (there's also Stanford-binet, but the fact that she mentions SD15 cutoffs earlier implies that she means WAIS) only scores up to 153. The writers of the test say that above 130 or so, the test becomes less accurate. Above 145, there are almost always "ceiling effects," where the suject essentially breaks the test. However, it doesn't go aove 153, so I'm not sure where the author is getting her numbers here. Also, once you get above these scores, you're talking about progressively smaller numbers of students. If your kid is that smart, then yeah, maybe you should see about special school for him, but there are only about 300,000 total people (adults and children) in this country who score above 145.

Most people associated with the school are more interested in preserving the status quo at the school rather than in helping your child. School personnel are extremely unlikely to advocated grade skipping, for example.

Had the author bothered to actually, I don't know, ask some school officials why they feel this way, they would have told her the same thing I mentioned above: skipping a grade involves more than just eing able to handle the academic material, and if the kid is already having difficulties performing up to his age cohort with regards to organizational abilities, skipping him ahead isn't going to help.

This is an excellent option for some kids, but you can expect the school to oppose it because of ignorance and misplaced egalitarianism.
Ignorance and misplaced egalitarianism? Pot, meet kettle; kettle, pot.

Children without any serious existing social problems should adjust quite well
So grade skipping should help deal with these problems, but only if the kid doesn't have any serious existing problems. The irony here is that for the "gifted" kids who do not exhibit any of these symptoms, grade skipping might be a good idea, but it is the kids who are "gifted" but having these problems who would suffer the most from grade skipping, and yet the author is advocating that these kids be skipped.

Parents of underachieving gifted students may have an especially difficult time convincing the school their child deserves a skip, since personnel tend to believe such children don't deserve to be accelerated. 

I wonder why.

School "Gifted" programs usually are in the form of enrichment rather than acceleration. These programs have drawbacks and are not usually as successful as acceleration. Such programs can backfire on the students because they are identified publicly as gifted and may become afraid of failing when they get back to their regular class. Or, they may feel like they are being punished for being smart by having to do more work. An excellent essay on the subject posted at Hoagies Gifted is "Horizontal Enrichment vs. Vertical Acceleration (http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/enrich.htm)." 

Oy. The whole point of gifted classes is that the kids can study more advanced material without being held to the same organizational and behavioral standards of older students that would occur if they were skipped. It also allows you to teach to the kids' strengths andl help them work up to potential.

It is much better to tell a child he or she is being advanced because of hard work, because that encourages more effort in the future. I tell my son he is a better reader because he reads more than his friends, not because he is smarter. And that he is better in math because he works with numbers more than his friends. For more information see the article "Praise Children for Effort, Not Intelligence, Study Says (http://borntoexplore.org/praise.htm)." 
Ah yes. Lie to the kid. It's not like he's hyperintelligent and would see right through it or anything. besides, if you let the kid believe this, he's not going to learn the difference between intelligence and effort.

Can't Someone Be Both Gifted and ADD?
If by "ADD" you mean they meet the diagnostic criteria for ADD, then absolutely. But that doesn't mean they have a brain defect. Remember that ADD is really just a description of behavior that MAY OR MAY NOT be caused by a brain defect.

The environmental causes of brain defects leading to ADD include things like lead poisoning and exposure to drugs as a fetus. These factors also reduce IQ. So it seems rather improbable that a high-IQ person also has such a brain defect. Not impossible, but not likely, either.

You cannot tell whether ADD-like behavior in a gifted person is normal gifted behavior or caused by a brain defect. It's simply not possible. I've read that you can try and identify ADD in gifted people based on whether the gifted person tends to finish the projects they start. I disagree. There is natural temperament variation with regard to convergent and divergent thinking. Divergent thinking is perfectly normal and is related to creative thinking and disorganization. Under MBTI temperament theory, "Perceivers" prefer to start projects rather than finish them, and tend to be disorganized and run late for appointments. A gifted Perceiver with overexcitabilities will have a very strong drive to start new projects. Finishing projects and not starting so many new ones is definitely a learned skill for such people. 

The bottom line is that you cannot tell if a gifted person's behavior is due to a brain defect. So why identify them as having a brain defect?

Oh dear lord. I don't even know where to begin. The author is either clearly severely misinformed (her website has links to Breggin, after all), or else she is lying through her teeth. She does not seem to know anything about ADD, she's ignoring several thousand studies on heredity, genetics, and neurology related to ADD. She is guilty either of inadequate or nonexistent research, severe mental retardation, or outright lying. I'm leaning towards a comination of all three.

Stimulants allow gifted people to thrive in environments in which they were not meant to be.
Ah yes. We're not meant to be in normal life. Segregate us off into wherever. Put us in our place, because it sure as hell isn't school, or work, or life in general. Where are we "supposed to be?" (note: extreme sarcasm)

Why can't the Gifted be different? Why should they have to pretend to be like everyone else? Why should a child with an IQ of 140 be forced to twiddle his thumbs for six hours a day in order to please the teacher, and be happy about it? Does this make sense?
Well, eventually he's going to have to learn to twiddle his thumbs for six hours a day to please his boss. We don't all get paid by the Church of Scientology to spew mental diarhhea on our website all day like Mrs. Gallagher, some of us actually have jobs.

Conclusion:

The author may be a well-meaning mom who wants the best for her child, but she is undereducated, misinformed, has failed to do even the most basic research, and appears to have a pre-existing bias against psychiatry, public schools, medication, and developmental disorders.

Her advice is ridiculously naive, and is likely to make a kid's life miserable. I really do feel sorry for her child. She advises ignoring school administrators, lying to children, refusing the diagnosis and prescriptions of licenced medical doctors...does this sound like a rational human being?

Mrs. Gallagher needs to do one of two things: Go to college and get a degree in psychology, cognitive neuroscience, or childhood development...or else she should stop giving such counterproductive advice. Really, words fails to express the extent to which this is a horrile essay. There are many other things that I would like to write aout the essay and its author, ut this is a family forum, and out of respect for the rules and memers, I won't use some of the words that come to mind to descrie this piece.

Proscrire

06-25-06, 10:25 PM

I agree that schools need to change (would love it, in fact) But it sounds like most of the changes that are being asked for are socio-political and cultural. How are the teachers supposed to change that? Heck my husband spends most of his day getting the stoned kid to stop making animal noises long enough for him to complete a sentence.

Tracy H.

06-25-06, 10:35 PM

Speedo, I *read* the article as you did...
I am having this dilemma with my 16yo right now...she has always been "bright" and was tested at 7, and then about 10 and scored 130 IQ...she suffered a severe head injury at 4...now, I have discovered she is lagging behind at school..I watch her *try* to study in the evenings, and she is doing exactly what I do when I can't concentrate...up, down, flick page, doodle, sigh...flick page back..etc etc..
I told her P Doc last week and he's sending her to a neuro psch...She is constantly complaining of lack of concentration!!

She has never really had to study hard, and learnt all she needed in the lesson...Now she NEEDS to study, she can't???

Hyperion

06-25-06, 11:03 PM

Looking over the orn to explore wesite, it appears to have a very latant anti-medication ias. On their list of suggested ooks, almost all of them are varieties of "How to help your kids without using meds" or "Why Ritalin is a secret plot y the Illuminati to poison our children" (ok, I'm exaggerating a little, ut only slightly). They suggest ooks y such notale Scientologist hacks as Peter reggin and Maryann lock. They also suggest Hartmann, who is not a scientologist, just an idiot. They also suggest a ook titled "The Myth of the ADD Child." Nice...I'm thinking of writing a ook called "The Myth of ear-Sightedness: Why evil optometrists want to force your kids into expensive eyewear"

Their "What is ADD" section includes:

Is ADD Real?

Some people have argued that there is no such thing as ADD. Upon reading their arguments I have found that what most of them are actually saying is that ADD is not a singular "disease", but rather a collection of behaviors or "symptoms" caused by a wide range of problems. So, to some extent, it's really a matter of semantics. They compare a diagnosis of ADD to that of a diagnosis of "fever." Imagine going to the doctor with a temperature and being told you have been diagnosed with a disease called "Fever," and that all you can do is take aspirin to lower it. You might question the wisdom of such a simplistic approach and wonder why the doctor doesn't look for the CAUSE of the fever. Doctors rarely look for the cause of ADD behaviors. Instead, they assume such behaviors are due to some mysterious brain defect that for some odd reason a huge number of people seem to have. 

Opponents of this simplistic approach argue that the concept of ADD as a singular and discreet disease is a complete fabrication. They do NOT argue that ADD behaviors are simply caused by lack of discipline or are figments of people's imagination. They believe people should be seen as individuals, and their specific problems treated as symptoms. The actual "condition" causing the behavior could range from brain damage to giftedness to allergies, and "treatment" would similarly range from stimulant medication to alternative education to allergy shots, depending on the root of problem.

Which is really funny, because studies have shown that stimulant meds help 80% or so of kids with ADD. I don't recall reading anything about allergy shots being overly effective.

speedo

06-25-06, 11:24 PM

Well, I see your perspective on it, but I don't think that is their intention. As I read it, they were saying that a lot of bright kids who do not have ADHD are getting diagnosed with adhd just because they are different and don't fit into the system. They go on to say that some bright kids have adhd. Of course we know this, but their point is, for a lot of these kids it would be better to change the system than to try to change the kids....especially if we are concerned about caring for the brightest minds in the country. not to mention, our kids.

I don't see an anti-meds stance there at all. I do agree that medication is the best treatment for adhd.

ME :D

Looking over the orn to explore wesite, it appears to have a very latant anti-medication ias. On their list of suggested ooks, almost all of them are varieties of "How to help your kids without using meds" or "Why Ritalin is a secret plot y the Illuminati to poison our children" (ok, I'm exaggerating a little, ut only slightly). They suggest ooks y such notale Scientologist hacks as Peter reggin and Maryann lock. They also suggest Hartmann, who is not a scientologist, just an idiot. They also suggest a ook titled "The Myth of the ADD Child." Nice...I'm thinking of writing a ook called "The Myth of ear-Sightedness: Why evil optometrists want to force your kids into expensive eyewear"

Their "What is ADD" section includes:

Which is really funny, because studies have shown that stimulant meds help 80% or so of kids with ADD. I don't recall reading anything about allergy shots being overly effective.

speedo

06-25-06, 11:36 PM

I am familiar with that scenario too. I think there is a tendency for people to expect a bright, high IQ kid to be gifted across the board. In that scenario, I think people don't readily consider the possibility of disorder unless there is a very obvious impairment.

I think that, in that scenario, a kid who is modestly impaired can slip through the cracks of the system. You end up with a bright child who mysteriously can't quite realize his/her potential. I remember that very well, because I was such a child.

This whole thing reminds me of the exerpt from "Shadow syndromes" that Nova posted recently....

I hope things come out well for your child.

Me :D

Speedo, I *read* the article as you did...
I am having this dilemma with my 16yo right now...she has always been "bright" and was tested at 7, and then about 10 and scored 130 IQ...she suffered a severe head injury at 4...now, I have discovered she is lagging behind at school..I watch her *try* to study in the evenings, and she is doing exactly what I do when I can't concentrate...up, down, flick page, doodle, sigh...flick page back..etc etc..
I told her P Doc last week and he's sending her to a neuro psch...She is constantly complaining of lack of concentration!!

She has never really had to study hard, and learnt all she needed in the lesson...Now she NEEDS to study, she can't???

Hyperion

06-25-06, 11:51 PM

I don't see an anti-meds stance there at all. I do agree that medication is the best treatment for adhd.

I think it's there, it's just rather subtle. It's not like Tom Cruise screaming at Matt Lauer, but if you re-read it, you'll notice that most of her objections aren't really to the diagnosis, but to the use of medication:

Moreover, sometimes adults do not realize a child is gifted because they don't really know what "gifted" means. Or they may believe a child is both ADD and gifted. As a result, many gifted children these days are being medicated for a brain defect they probably don't have. 

Parents, if your child seems bright then please, please, PLEASE have a qualified person evaluate him or her for giftedness BEFORE you accept a diagnosis of ADD and medication. 
Gifted children MUST have an education that fits their needs. If they don't, they should be expected to act out or space out, and it is NOT their fault! Placing them on medication so that they can tolerate a more boring school is absurd. There are much better options available, such as home schooling, alternative schools and grade skipping. 
Stimulant medications allow gifted children and adults to attend to things they otherwise find too boring. That is exactly how the medications feel, too. They make boring things interesting. Like organizing toys instead of learning how to play chess, practicing addition instead of learning multiplication, or filing papers instead of troubleshooting coorporate problems.

Stimulants allow gifted people to thrive in environments in which they were not meant to be. A child who is teaching himself division should not be required to spend endless hours in school practicing 5 + 4. An adult with abstract reasoning abilities in the 99th percentile should not try and spend four hours filing. The solution to problem behavior in the Gifted is to change the environment, not to change the Gifted person's brain. 

Medications DO work, if your goal is to shove a square peg into a round hole. But is that worthy goal? Why can't the Gifted be different? Why should they have to pretend to be like everyone else? Why should a child with an IQ of 140 be forced to twiddle his thumbs for six hours a day in order to please the teacher, and be happy about it? Does this make sense?

She also attempts to bolster this by repeatedly asserting that there is no neurological basis for ADHD:

a brain defect they probably don't have. 

Proponents of the gifted assert that it is usually problems with the school environment that are to blame for behavior problems and underachievement, not any problem with the child. You will not hear this from school officials or most psychiatrists, however. They believe it must be a brain defect. 

If by "ADD" you mean they meet the diagnostic criteria for ADD, then absolutely. But that doesn't mean they have a brain defect. Remember that ADD is really just a description of behavior that MAY OR MAY NOT be caused by a brain defect.

The environmental causes of brain defects leading to ADD include things like lead poisoning and exposure to drugs as a fetus. These factors also reduce IQ. So it seems rather improbable that a high-IQ person also has such a brain defect. Not impossible, but not likely, either.

You cannot tell whether ADD-like behavior in a gifted person is normal gifted behavior or caused by a brain defect. It's simply not possible. I've read that you can try and identify ADD in gifted people based on whether the gifted person tends to finish the projects they start. I disagree. There is natural temperament variation with regard to convergent and divergent thinking. Divergent thinking is perfectly normal and is related to creative thinking and disorganization. Under MBTI temperament theory, "Perceivers" prefer to start projects rather than finish them, and tend to be disorganized and run late for appointments. A gifted Perceiver with overexcitabilities will have a very strong drive to start new projects. Finishing projects and not starting so many new ones is definitely a learned skill for such people. 

The bottom line is that you cannot tell if a gifted person's behavior is due to a brain defect. So why identify them as having a brain defect?

What she seems to be saying is "there are these kids who fit all the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, who face many of the difficulties faced by those with ADHD, and who are often medicated for ADHD and find it helpful. However, I do not believe that they have ADHD, I do not believe that it is a neurological disorder, and I think that they should not be medicated. Don't listen to school officials when they give you advice on your child's education, and don't listen to psychiatrists when they prescribe medication."

auntchris

06-26-06, 12:56 AM

Sorry cant read all this post too long.

Speedo, will read the whole article eventually . I have never worked up to my potential either gee I wonder could I be gifted? I was alway told i am very smart. I will read it tomorrow.

HighFunctioning

06-26-06, 01:50 AM

Once upon a time - it was fine, but now 'no.' The basic format of buncha' kids sitting down. copying from a teacher writing notes up in front, questions kept to a minimum, *rote learning* and examinations as a measure of success.....

What is the lesson being taught here? Surely if it were purely the subject at hand, then why would students waste their ink and effort writing down notes. That is what computers and copy machines are for. Otherwise, you're forcing a style of learning at the fundamental level. It's not that I have a problem with using such a tactic, but enforcing it is a different game. If one can prove competency, then the question of mark should be no more. This isn't about going through the hoops like everyone else. The hoops help everyone else. It's not about an arbitrary listing of games to play, it's about accomplishing something.

Are these current 'meta-' though ...:-)...?...:-)... or legacy meta- ...:-)...?...:-)...

Legacy-meta, not neo-meta.... And by alterior aspects, that is a fundamental flaw in the educational system. It's not that everyone intends to have a traffic shaping/rejecting filter in place, it's the model of thinking (overly rigid).

As the mind progresses and methods for teaching remain static, we run the risk of boring the ADDer into delinquency - as they say - 'don't bore the ADDer!' ... 'no good can come of it ... ' ...:-)...

This is a very deep issue. Don't bore these individuals, but what happens is that they discover that the real-world* is often quite boring. That's not simply an issue with education, but an issue with cooperative work strategies in general (which one could think of classroom learning as a distant cousin). Working with others in the work place is somewhat like multiple threads running in a multithreaded program. Each thread has to abide by access rules, possibly causing synchronization issues (waiting around bored for something to happen, working at the slow pace of another, causing a slow pace for oneself). Imagine a procedure with a single lock that stays acquired for a long period of time as opposed to more fine grained locking... Multiple threads also execute upon the same image, in a sense, all threads "think" the same way (in a way). Most effectively, people work together best when they "think" alike, irrespective of "skills" for working with others. Obviously this doesn't work for those who are "different" and "uncommon".

*real-world, n.: where non-programmers and non-creative people exist.

Learning has to shift more towards self-directed questioning and learning. I very much fear that we're shifting into a 'listen to the expert' society, as we overcomplicate life, and disciplines grow ever more specialised - sprouting sub-disciplines

Yes. It's becoming more a "do one thing, and do it well" world. It's like the UNIX philosophy. There are cogs and those who creatively use those cogs (well, probably not creatively....). There are commands and people at the command line issuing commands. Like management vs. engineers. Gifted individuals tend to be more both sides of this (big-picture and small-picture at the same time), so this aspect is bound to drive these people nuts. The same probably applies to ADHD/Gifted individuals.

SB_UK

06-26-06, 03:35 AM

*real-world, n.: 1 where non-programmers and non-creative people exist
......................2 where coding is not viewed as a creative act

--------------------
Footnote
--------------------
* Like a real-world artist, the coder has only a limited series of tools to accomplish his or her art. The efficiency of coding and array of final form is abstract art.
One may characterise all tasks on a spectum of abstraction. I believe that the ADDer drives inexorably towards tasks requiring ever-increasing abstract reasoning ...
... even if a step backwards is required to take two steps forward.
The very basis to this idea resides in your comment on 'electro-chemical' ... though shifted from an idea of ~electro-chemical~ per unit lb (weight) [efficiency] to total ~electro-chemical~ per unit life.
Imagine an end of year report quantifying both standard attained with energetic usage in brain over that period ... with highest accolades going to the most efficient usage of resource.
That'd be a description of programmer (Priest Class), wouldn't it?
ADD ... you bet! ... though *not* contextually disordered ... the Priest Class chisel out their own reality, hop in and are sheltered from the inclement weather.
Although pallid, they need not worry ... they'll be happy to come out soon.
The comments on #1 ->->- *not* an efficiency (instead a net total) argument for ~e-c~ per lb and #2 ->->- efficiency argument as measure of educational achievment are congruous since #1->->-maximizes->->#2.

SB.

meadd823

06-26-06, 05:21 AM

As quoted in Solden's "Women with ADHD"-"I have a PH.D and I can't balance my checkbook."

To me this is evidence that some gifted people can have ADD or ADD traits . . .sorry my negative ADD trait of the day is hopping in the middle of the thread without reading all the post first! I exchanged my usually complete thread reading trait for a better attitude in disagreements. . . .

I don't think it's about lacking structure. It's about not having the right structure. The structure needs to be adaptable, not nonexistent.

Agreed- - -sorry I followed some one over here forgot who. :o
~me need to be a PIA to to other staff members~ mine already hurts- sharing the wealth :D

Here's the thing: I don't see a problem of gifted kids being unnecessarily medicated. If they don't have ADHD, they're unlikely to be medicated in the first place. If they are medicated unnecessarily, they would likely stop the meds since they wouldn't work.

EEk I wasn't for the tearing this apart but I was in agreement with you until this one. Uh Hm stimulants will help every one focus even non-ADDers using your own logical line of thinking . . . .college students abusing ADD drugs for a reason . . crams for exams . . .CNS stimulants . . . . .improves focus for all (if they do not take to much~that is)

However, my own experience was that the opposite occurred. It was pretty obvious to most teachers and school officials that I was gifted when I entered 3rd grade reading at an 8th grade reading level. However, somehow the ADHD symptoms seemed to have passed over everyone's head until I got to college

My experience was just the opposite, I was considered retarded having little to do with ADD more to do with dyslexia. I was labeled and chastised because I did NOT learn their way. So the shoe fits either foot? One size fits NONE!

ADD symptom weren't even a consideration neither was me having the IQ above that of a house plant. According to the school experts I should not even be able to read your post never mind respond. There is more than one way to learn to read, more than one way to learn period/ I think labeling kids retarded because they learn differently is not any more productive.In my opinion labeling me retarded and incapable of learning was potentially equally as damaging. . . . . .although I do admit being in special ed classes in some subjects and gifted classes in other should be a clue! Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water why don't we go with E-all of the above!

A score from 130-145 is two standard deviations above mean.

Please explain "two deviations above the mean" . . . .I scored above the 130 mark and I have two more deviation -:eek: -Man the dyslexia and the ADD are bad enough no more mean deviations please! :p

I am sorry I understand this does not mean the same thing as being dyslexic or ADD but am unable to glean the meaning (literal sense) out of your context. Please expound.

If your kid is that smart, then yeah, maybe you should see about special school for him, but there are only about 300,000 total people (adults and children) in this country who score above 145

Yea too bad some do not know what to do with it. High IQ does not equate common sense sorry of these 300,000 individual I am kin to two! My brother is really IQ smart but lacks a little in the old fashion horse sense department!

My grandpa has more horse sense but again he was older when I meant him. . . .(duh I know)

She does not seem to know anything about ADD, she's ignoring several thousand studies on heredity, genetics, and neurology related to ADD. She is guilty either of inadequate or nonexistent research, severe mental retardation, or outright lying. I'm leaning towards a comination of all three.

Okay this was funny and correct. . . still the language deserves it's own acknowledgment!

Oh you did forget one in the above list mentioned before in you post that would be flat out denial!

Heck my husband spends most of his day getting the stoned kid to stop making animal noises long enough for him to complete a sentence.

The mental pictures of this thread are amazing!

Gee when I used to get stoned I was actually quieter. . . other wise teacher spent the day trying to get the hyper straight kid to stop wiggling . . .why they could not talk while a wiggled is beyond me as I could listen and wiggle! Either way the fact is I got into less trouble smoking weed=less wiggling- probably kept me smoking weed longer than I needed to!

Looking over the orn to explore wesite,

Another flexible key board on it way out?

"The Myth of ear-Sightedness: Why evil optometrists want to force your kids into expensive eyewear"

now the "N" is going which to some one who is near sighted this is still funny!

Yea the fact I can put on the lens things and suddenly see must be a coincedance! All made up in my head I can see it so clearly now (pun intended)

Well, I see your perspective on it, but I don't think that is their intention. As I read it, they were saying that a lot of bright kids who do not have ADHD are getting diagnosed with adhd just because they are different and don't fit into the system. They go on to say that some bright kids have adhd. Of course we know this, but their point is, for a lot of these kids it would be better to change the system than to try to change the kids....especially if we are concerned about caring for the brightest minds in the country. not to mention, our kids.

Proof people can both read the same article written in the same language and see two different things. Never ceases to amaze me. I did get the anti-medicine drift when I ran across this some time ago but I will still vote E=both as I do believe the school systems need to be more flexible.

Let me visit common scenes one more time as both sides have already been.

When we become adults we don't all "fit" into the same kinds of jobs?. . . .I mean I have a wiggle friendly job to match my wiggles but should Hyperion, speedo or even SB be expected to nurse or recycle because this works for meadd823? If this idea sounds preposterous then the idea of cramming all our children into one mold should be equally as preposterous. I am not blaming teachers here they are just as caught up and stuck in the system as the rest of us.

Think how much better if they could teach if they were able to teach into their own strengths to a class of children who are more interested in learning because they no longer need to get stoned to deal with life. I know I am dreaming must be bed time think I shall continue this dream in a supine . . .
position! :o

Nite-nite

auntchris

06-26-06, 12:44 PM

why does this seem like a debate on the subject shouldnt it be taken to the debate section. I dont want to get on anyones bad side but we are all entitled to our own opinios without jumping on anyone elses toes.

Becareful in this thread. Just looking out for everyone.

Scattered

06-26-06, 01:21 PM

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Why can't the Gifted be different? Why should they have to pretend to be like everyone else? Why should a child with an IQ of 140 be forced to twiddle his thumbs for six hours a day in order to please the teacher, and be happy about it? Does this make sense? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Here's the thing: I don't see a problem of gifted kids being unnecessarily medicated. If they don't have ADHD, they're unlikely to be medicated in the first place. If they are medicated unnecessarily, they would likely stop the meds since they wouldn't work.
Now this was my understanding of things both from what I've read and from what my psychologist has explained to me. Wouldn't stimulent medication make a gifted, but non-ADHD child buzz around the room more? The calming effect applies to ADDers with their paradoxical response to stimulents. I know even non ADDers focus more with stimulent medication but doesn't it wind them up more in the energy department -- does it really help them tolerate boredom?

Scattered

melanie_me

06-26-06, 01:33 PM

I think that the author of the article is trying to find an alternative to diagnosing a children with ADHD/ADD. They are obviously anti-meds and not familiar with the current scientific understandings of the cause and symptoms of ADHD.

I am gifted. I have an extremely high IQ and excel in the visual arts. I also have ADHD and went undiagnosed for 30 years because I am very intelligent and was intuitive enough to know I needed to major in Fine Arts in college.

My 7 year old son has also been recenly diagnosed with ADHD. His IQ has tested in the superior range. The test giver said my son talked and played through the entire test, so his actual IQ may be higher. He is also considered gifted. Both him and his older brother have tested into our school district's magnet school for gifted children.

My older son is gifted, and does not have ADHD, but he does have alot of the "symptoms" listed in the article (i.e. dreamy, forgetful, etc.) None of this interfers with his school performance or social relationships. He is not hyper, impulsive or inattentive and can follow complex instructions to completion with very little or no assistance.

My husband has Aspergers Syndrome. Many of the symptoms the article listed can also be caused by Aspergers. Many children with Aspergers are considered gifted because of their intense obesession with peticular subjects. They gain almost encyclopedic knowledge in their subject(s) of interest and appear to be extremely gifted, although it is only in one or two narrow topics.

The article talked about the danger of "labeling" children, which is absolute nonsense! A diagnosis, or "label," allows parents to access important resources that a child needs, especially in school where a child spends most of their day.

It is dangerous and foolish to ignore the possiblity that a child may have a neurological disorder or austitic spectrum disorder, just to avoid "labeling" and medication. Children deserve to be treated with respect and dignity and should not be denied vital services because of a parent's personal adversion to the the possibilty of a problem.

Scattered

06-26-06, 01:35 PM

there are only about 300,000 total people (adults and children) in this country who score above 145.How in the world did I end up related to four guys with IQ's of 170+ (two brothers, father-in-law, and husband)?:faint: I guess that's what I get for marrying the son of a rocket scientist -- I had less choice about the brothers!:p Nothing like having a respectable IQ and still finding yourself at a 40+ IQ point disadvantage around the dinner table.:rolleyes:

I tend to agree with what Hyperion said though about the tendency not to get help for gifted kids who are also ADD. According to Hyperion's stats my verbal IQ is in the top 2 %. I was diagnosed with ADHD at 4 but my parents decided agaisnt Ritalin. My achievement tests in 5th grade had me at the bottom 10th and 14th percentile in spelling and math computation. Doesn't exactly seem to match up with with what my ability should have been. I wonder what difference medication might have made?:eyebrow:

Scattered

kvrrd

06-26-06, 03:45 PM

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21874

This was one of Nova's threads from last year. I've posted the same article recently. Lovecky describes the over-excitabilites really well.

I was an underachiever. I was lucky to survive my youth and young adulthood.
I found passion and realized I needed an education to continue pursuing that passion.
My college education was totally self motivated - NEVER talked to a teacher or a TA, or relied on a work group.
Never even occurred to me. I was tenacious in pursuing what I needed to learn.

Gifted, ADD, Autistic, all those lists get blurred, visual/spatial, aural/sequential -

Don't bore these individuals, but what happens is that they discover that the real-world* is often quite boring. That's not simply an issue with education, but an issue with cooperative work strategies in general (which one could think of classroom learning as a distant cousin). Working with others in the work place is somewhat like multiple threads running in a multithreaded program. Each thread has to abide by access rules, possibly causing synchronization issues (waiting around bored for something to happen, working at the slow pace of another, causing a slow pace for oneself). Imagine a procedure with a single lock that stays acquired for a long period of time as opposed to more fine grained locking... Multiple threads also execute upon the same image, in a sense, all threads "think" the same way (in a way). Most effectively, people work together best when they "think" alike, irrespective of "skills" for working with others. Obviously this doesn't work for those who are "different" and "uncommon".
And it doesn't really matter how talented one may be, if that person detracts from the group as a team, then that person has to go...

melv

06-26-06, 03:51 PM

i dont have the patience to read all the responses ... but how do "square peg" adults fit into society? I do have a 140 IQ supposedly, and was classified as gifted, and at the same told by teachers that i would never amount to anything, because of whatever else was / is going on. so the article raises more questions for me than answers.

speedo

06-26-06, 05:27 PM

Scattered

06-26-06, 06:58 PM

I think that if Thomas Edison were a kid today he would never invent the phonograph, and would never have perfected cheap electric lights. I think he would have been labeld, and segregated from mainstream society.

ME :DOh, I don't know about that. While there certainly are many creative ADDers, I don't believe we have a corner on the creativity market. Besides my medication doesn't keep me from daydreaming -- it just kind of helps with being able to stick with other things and turn my daydreams into actions.

Scattered

HighFunctioning

06-26-06, 07:11 PM

Oh, I don't know about that. While there certainly are many creative ADDers, I don't believe we have a corner on the creativity market. Besides my medication doesn't keep me from daydreaming -- it just kind of helps with being able to stick with other things and turn my daydreams into actions.

I think invention is a matter of being left to one's own devices. These days, that is much less likely to happen, medicated or not. Creativity is definately a factor, but if one isn't given the opportunity to use it effectively....

HighFunctioning

06-26-06, 11:02 PM

I think we can generalize the real world a bit more:

*real-world, n.: A place where everyone is expected to know exactly what they are going to do, before they do it, in it's entirety, and exactly how long it will take.

And I think this is quite significant to the topic at hand (yes, I am paying attention to the topic of this thread, for once). I think when ADHD and Giftedness are combined, we have compensentory abilities to get around formal planning skills, whether being a good hacker or seeing the big picture in gestalt. This thread was interesting: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23253. It was about programming without planning, though being specifically about those with AS, it would apply to ADDers as well. Not to say that foresight isn't important at all, but quite a bit of the support structure we know today as the Internet was developed on this model. I think that programming without planning teaches good software design, but that's not to say that planning is necessarily bad. However, I've witnessed plenty of software designs being flowcharted to the last detail being horribly inflexible, but that's another story.

Going back to the topic at hand, education is pushing this factory worker attitude on students, whether it be at a real factory, a "software factory (http://www.reciprocality.org/Reciprocality/r0/Day1.html)", or even any job of "doing" directly, not creating. Do, as creating is a waste of time (from a linear thinking perspective). But isn't this creative aptitude an asset to the ADDer? Doesn't this creativity, from whatever means it may arrive, help bypass the mindless obstacles that present themselves? It's almost as if we are being closed in upon... It's not universal (fortunately), but it is widespread enough to be impairing.

I hope this post has made sense to at least one person, as I'm impaired in linear thinking at the moment (more than usual, that is).

ummagumma

06-27-06, 02:25 AM

139 IQ, skipped first grade, was in gifted programs throughout school, currently a computer programmer.

HighFunctioning, your post definitely made sense to me. That "factory worker attitude" you cited is one of the main reasons why I dropped out of college. They tried to teach this absolutely retarded notion that if you do enough formal planning and flowcharting, the code just kinda writes itself. And in this code, we were expected to devote an equal amount of space to comments. So it ended up like:

if (foo == bar) // Check to see if foo is equal to bar

It was the stupidest thing I've ever seen in my life. And to make matters worse, nobody cared about the quality of the software. Elegant, well-written code that wasn't in 100% compliance with their bureaucratic BS would be marked down. On the other hand, someone who wrote a bunch of hacked-together garbage that only compiled by sheer luck--but jumped through all the right hoops--would get an A+.

I'm not saying that planning is unimportant, because it is. It's just that my form of "planning" mostly involves cranking up some Steely Dan, staring at the wall for a while, and periodically scribbling some thoughts on a sheet of paper. I like to know as many details as possible up front, because it gives me a better feel for the project and often influences the overall layout.

Regarding creating vs. doing, my impulse to be creative is a blessing and a curse. There's nothing I enjoy more than being faced with some kind of really bizarre problem with all sorts of various hurdles, and finding a way to get the job done. It's what motivates me to get out of bed in the morning.

But in the real world, not everything is exciting and challenging. Sometimes I need to handle mundane tasks, and then I want to shoot myself. There's nothing I hate more than making signup and "contact us" pages for websites. I'll put those off for days because I'd rather be doing just about anything else. Hell, updating my mouse driver is more interesting and rewarding.

Fortunately, I found a job with a web application development firm where I really fit in well. The complex, challenging projects go to those of us who have more experience. Whenever possible, we each deal exclusively with 1 project at a time, rather than wasting time collaborating with other people and jumping from project to project. Meanwhile, simpler stuff is assigned to the less-experienced programmers. Of course all of this is just common sense. It's also the first company I've worked for that had any common sense. Typically it's like "Dilbert", except the managers and marketing people tend to be more egotistical.

SB_UK

06-27-06, 03:25 AM

I think we can generalize the real world a bit more:

*real-world, n.: A place where everyone is expected to know exactly what they are going to do, before they do it, in it's entirety, and exactly how long it will take.

... but that's not to say that planning is necessarily bad. However, I've witnessed plenty of software designs being flowcharted to the last detail being horribly inflexible ...
... help bypass the mindless obstacles that present themselves? ...
Generalizing General Gene Ral...

*real-world, n.: 1 internal rrreality models of the non-ADDer; low dimensional (cf. ADDer); contextual
......................2 internal 4-space (4-d) structure of mind (compare: 13-space (13-d) structure of ADDer mind) (cog psych).

Imagine 2 co-existent perspectives on reality - one rich (ADD) and the other not.
Imagine being the minority perspective holder of the richer rrreality.
Imagine seeing what the majority do not.
Imagine how contextually disordering that experience might prove.
Imagine not being able to believe your eyes.

To be clear - the mind is characterized here as a 4d (non-ADD) and a 13d (ADD) structure; the richer *logical* structure (ADD) ->->-(dimensionality relates to actual logical structure ... efficiency increases with increasing dimensionality ... the physical organization of neurones into a functional entity (major component of mind)) the richer *logical* structure (ADD) ->->-is the *functional* consequence of man feeding one's mind with information.
ADD in its purest form develops through a questioning mind, which develops through self-directed questions (self-learning), which in turn feeds its own development ->->- to beyond tipping point->->-(incidentally, all driven by hfs' ~e/c~ considerations) ...
tipping point->->-... that point at which the weight of input information (or rrreality requiring storage) ... exceeds the capacity for the logical structure to encapsulate that information in its older (legacy) 4-space form.

... ... ... beyond the tipping-point ... ADD (in its purest form) ... springs alive. ADD *must* not be confused with the contextual disorder which arises through consequences of the 5 'Imagines ...' ... above. The 5 'Imagines ...' are congruous with Lennon's several 'Imagin...' ...ings.

Incidentally ... apologies! ... from above ... #1->->-maximizes->->#2 ... should read #1->->-is maximized by->->#2 or #2->->-maximizes->->#1.

In a very rrreal sense, one may change another's mind.

ADD in its purest form will not develop in environments in which the individual is denuded of the freedom to think for his or her self.
Examples of such communities include the extreme religious fundamentalists (cults, zealots ...), the extreme hierarchical (armed forces), life under a politically repressive regime, employment in which a mindscape must be adopted (at the expense of others) in order to ensure proper functionality therein (medicine) and an overly disciplined childhood (which is accepted and not rebelled against) ... ... ... to name but a very few.

"...but..." "...help..."* (other two quotes) are efforts of 4-space processors to control the nagging peculiarities of 13-space observations. An inability to identify ?what is important? ... leading to overly complex 'Systems Analysis' ... and, an inability to identify ?what is important? ... leading to 4-space thought putting up mindless obstacles in all of our ways. 

SB.

And long may that 'impairment' continue ...

* not to be confused with 'butt help' ...:-)...

Incidentally ... read another way ...:-)...
~HF(...takes notes, pays attention, organized...)~[i]---------------------------------------
End of School report (1990)
Tom H. F. Unix (Age 7)
---------------------------------------

Crazy~Feet

06-27-06, 01:27 PM

I am also hopeful that I am not going OT by framing my response in the form of a story, some creatively worded writing. That's more my personal style and I am going to honor myself in that fashion :D. I freely admit that I have skimmed the article and all the posts here and may have missed something pertinent, and my intention is not to provoke argument. I also admit I just took my medication and it is not kicked in at all as of yet.

On with the story!

I will begin with the main character, a man I will call "my own father". He was raised in the 1940's and '50's with a high degree of immigrant-motivated expectations placed upon him. As far as I know, since all information included in this part of the tale was told to me after-the-fact, he went off to college with the intention of becoming a mathematics teacher, since he was clearly gifted in mathematics and as a teacher, he would at least be able to find work with a steady paycheck teaching something that came to him naturally.

Factor in a few peripheral distractions named "my mother" and "sexual attraction" and you come to the point where my father found himself unable to finish college as a traditional student, choosing instead to marry the mother of his soon-to-be-born child, whom I will call "me" :D. He did finish college later on in non-traditional fashion but never did get his teaching certificate (as far as I know, anyway). That's probably a good thing!

Fast forward through several years, the birth of "my brother" and arrive at the point where my father took a job at Univac, after (from what I can glean from the information provided me) having a relatively hard time keeping jobs in places like "factories", "door to door sales" and such. Dad was encouraged by some nameless someone to apply at Univac simply because the nameless someone knew he had this undefinable ability to use his natural math skills in ways other people did not seem able. Nameless someone believed that father's skill might mesh quite well with the newly emerging job category called "computer programming"...and was correct in that belief with startling results.

In short, my father was very lucky, he stepped in the proverbial "poo", and found his niche, becoming very successful and remains to this day a valuable systems analyst for a well-known manufacturer of 18-wheeled trucks. He has at his disposal a staff of many, an expense account amounting to several million american dollars to buy software for the company that employs him, and enjoys a great deal of respect.

~~But I wonder...do they mind how much he twitches and squirms when required to endure long meetings? I know that he was unable at home to carry on even a simple conversation without standing up and pacing, or zoning out, or at the very least twitching and squirming.~~ I speculate that his behavior in meetings in classified as "quirky" since his input in the end is classified as "extremely valuable". I do know that when some system crashes at any time of the day or night, it is he that gets the call.

In a feeble attempt to stay OT I will include the fact that all 4 members of my family have been IQ tested with results over 180 points, whatever that means :rolleyes:, and my brother and I were classified as "gifted" (I in grammar/English and Scientific concepts, he in mathematics) and promptly recieved little to no special accomodations for these "gifts".

::shrugs::

loversinc

06-30-06, 06:04 AM

how am I going to sort myself out and get some work done if people write so much interesting stuff!
the main point in all of this me thinks is that singular labels are often crap and don't tell the whole story. Certainly part of the reason I told teachers that what they where telling me was boring crap that i either already knew or did'nt need to know was because i was much smarter in an abstract visio-spatial.. whats ma call it it gifted smart **** way. But now i know it was also cause i've got adhd, and i think the childhood trauma also influenced as did the **** weather in the uk, the criminalisation of drug use, the class system, females being associated with nature and subjucated and me being a soft boy etc etc.
Meds are defo not the whole solution, (i'm hoping for me, none of the solution) neither is home education, or everyone taking acid once a year. We've all got to find the path with a little help from our friends.
now that i've started my dore treatment, am practicing my cbt, am swimming lots, laying in the sun, doing my yoga, and not beating myself up about the occasional party, i'm hoping that my posts become easier to understand over the next few months. apologese until then. X

Nova

06-30-06, 10:39 AM

We've all got to find the path with a little help from our friends.

I, wholeheartedly, concur !
Thank you for saying this !

Nova

clueless

06-30-06, 01:01 PM

Here's my highly-opinionated rant on an already controversial subject.

If a child is "gifted," then why are they not succeeding? The very definition of gifted means that they were given something ... well, everybody has SOMETHING they're good at, even if it's just being funny or cute.

But "gifted" in the way that you mean implies that they are somehow superior ... if they're not achieving to the level of their development, and they continue to not do so throughout their lives, then are they not cursed instead??

I think that every parent must realize that their children are not extensions of themselves, but rather unique individuals. They must format their parenting style to benefit each child. That is the role of the parent.

Life is very complicated, and I'm not saying there isn't merit to this article, but it does not explain away a child's problems. If they're extremely bright and still underachieving, then the parent should adjust their education accordingly. Even so, there are plenty of kids out there (such as Lou Reed, rock god of The Velvet Underground) who suffered needlessly for years, and still managed to get out and get ahead.

Time is the ultimate test of giftedness ... a truly gifted child will always find a way, even if they are living in awful conditions. In America, we are so spoiled that we think life should model itself to benefit us. This is not reality. People like Maya Angelou overcome obstacles all the time, with no help, and prove their giftedness over time.

That's all I have to say about that.

loversinc

06-30-06, 04:29 PM

thanks nova, one error i made was the use of singular path.. sorry i meant paths.. our own paths..
x

HighFunctioning

06-30-06, 05:28 PM

If a child is "gifted," then why are they not succeeding? The very definition of gifted means that they were given something ... well, everybody has SOMETHING they're good at, even if it's just being funny or cute.

But "gifted" in the way that you mean implies that they are somehow superior ... if they're not achieving to the level of their development, and they continue to not do so throughout their lives, then are they not cursed instead??

Perhaps the approprate word here is "exceptional", not "gifted"? As in, he or she is an outlier that we are not equipped to handle? Such a word does not imply bad or good, and a characteristic is usually not unilaterally good or bad, but highly context dependent. In the real-world, manager's and HR staff are highly empirical. If they see an employee not performing within the given structure, then it is assumed that the employee is not good enough. It's not about being good, but fitting into an existing model of operation like a key that opens a lock.

I think that every parent must realize that their children are not extensions of themselves, but rather unique individuals. They must format their parenting style to benefit each child. That is the role of the parent.

Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. But is the Theory of Mind of the parent always capable of dealing with such differences? From an IQ perspective, usually siblings and parents are within 15 points a part, I believe. From a personality perspective, I'm not sure genetically. Naturally what you are saying is perfectly feasable, but what happens when the average joe marries a fairly intelligent person (but socially withdrawn, having some issues), has a kid, divorces a year later, taking the kid, and gets together with another average joe? All I am saying is that I don't think this understanding always comes easy.

HighFunctioning

06-30-06, 06:02 PM

if (foo == bar) // Check to see if foo is equal to bar

It was the stupidest thing I've ever seen in my life. And to make matters worse, nobody cared about the quality of the software....

Ahh yes, I remember programming in college! I tried to appease my professors to a degree. My code was peppered with sections like #ifdef BRAIN_DAMAGED_CODE ... #endif so that I could have both good code and code the professor wanted. And yes, we were required to use the rediculous comments as well, and in my code, they tended to be like /* I can't imagine that this checks to see if foo equals bar or anything like that.... */ and /* I forgot why this function is called main....hmm */. My professors really hate me. :D

kvrrd

06-30-06, 07:14 PM

Just by the numbers, average IQ is pretty self-explanatory. Gifted is likened to retarded except in the other direction. It's just a description, a measure of how this person solves problems given a standard set of criterion. A standard set revolving around the average. But those terms gifted and retarded connote bad feelings, like a whole bunch of other words I won't repeat here - ick.
If you think about every trait that you have, getting each trait per person quantitatively measured/compared to every other persons' trait. Kinda like astrology, isn't it? Pattern recognition. how many matching samples does it actually take to establish a pattern?

Terminology is so delicate. I would like to stop being so politically correct all the time..
Forget the terminology and address the outliers, the minorities...
Gifted as savant - savant having an extraordinary skill, a specialist at a particular something. That is what I refer to as gifted. Those are the gifts that should be recognized, nurtured and utilized...

kvrrd

06-30-06, 07:16 PM

and there's something to be said about clearing out them cobwebs every year or so...

Nova

06-30-06, 09:57 PM

I didn't even notice.

I understood what you meant, anyways. (0:

Nova

Nova

06-30-06, 09:58 PM

a specialist at a particular something. That is what I refer to as gifted. Those are the gifts that should be recognized, nurtured and utilized...

Yes !

That's what I also refer to, as 'being gifted', K.

Nova

meadd823

07-01-06, 05:27 AM

If one can prove competency, then the question of mark should be no more.

I will respond using a common phrase I often use to those new to the medical field:

"Don't go inserting any common sense, it will muck up the entire system. Because it is basically build on non-sense. :soapbox:

It seems like this would be the case but in a word *NOT*

My brother could listen in class once and ace the test. He failed because he refused to do his home work.

Why?
Because he has a disorder called redundancy aversion = ADD co-morbid with absorption of academic information almost instantly.

The hoops help everyone else

People with redundancy aversion = RA ~ even shorter than ADD.
The hoops cause RA's to fail where they should excel. In the name of horse sense, how it is right?

So we end up with a bunch or overly bright criminals and deliquents. . . .and wonder why :rolleyes:

It's not about an arbitrary listing of games to play, it's about accomplishing something.

Boredom, basically. Once the idea is received how much redundancy is really necessary?

It's not that everyone intends to have a traffic shaping/rejecting filter in place, it's the model of thinking (overly rigid).

Overly rigid agreed.

Intention unknown

results "rejecting filter" is in place ands causing a perfectly productive individual to become among the statistically numbers of co-morbid RA (ADD) with ODD or CD instead of PhD! . This is exactly what happened to my brother.

How many different professions do just those in this discussion represent. I prefer jobs where people who can't sit down and shut up thrive = walkie talkie job . = nursing, recycling, roofing, Does that mean the rest of you should fit the same mold or you are disordered? I sure hope not. . .I see differences and it is our diversity that "civilization" thrives. . .diversity a tolerance worth encouraging . . .how much less negative stuff would we ditch if tolerance of difference were more popular? :soapbox:

As the mind progresses and methods for teaching remain static, we run the risk of boring the ADDer into delinquency - as they say - 'don't bore the ADDer!' ... 'no good can come of it ...

Exact a mundo! That is exxcacty what happened the story has not ended but last check my brothers less "bright" siblings even those with LD were further in life. His sisters have lower IQ but have been more productive at younger ages. Lower IQ less RA. . . .dyslexia probably was beneficial for me once again as seeing things wrong can prove to be entertaining in itself should the mind be warped just right. :rolleyes:

Most effectively, people work together best when they "think" alike, irrespective of "skills" for working with others. Obviously this doesn't work for those who are "different" and "uncommon".

People work together best if they are complementary in personality not necessarily a like in thinking.If they are all attempting to accomplish the same goal then this makes it twice as nice.

Then again there is thinking alike then there is thinking alike. Multiple threaded people also think alike, without being alike per say.
Surly my brother isn't the only hard headed RA person out there as he seems to run with others who are also RA . . . so we keep the system as it is and wonder why so the incidence of ODD, CD, anxiety, depression, are so bloody high in what should be high functioning ADDers ~ oops about the pun sign my medications are beginning to wear off.~

why does this seem like a debate on the subject shouldn't it be taken to the debate section.

Because along with RA people tend to have EPWA = Extra Pass Word Aversion.

Wouldn't stimulant medication make a gifted, but non-ADHD child buzz around the room more? The calming effect applies to ADDers with their paradoxical response to stimulants. I know even non ADDers focus more with stimulant medication but doesn't it wind them up more in the energy department -- does it really help them tolerate boredom?

there is a thresh hold when we are talking CNS stimulants,if thresh hold is crossed then above statement is correct it turns the non-ADDer into a hyperactive ADDer. NON-ADD thresh hold tend to be lower according to my purely Anatol observations. A certain dose that does not cross individual thresh hold my cause hyper focusing tendencies in non-ADDers. Think college students seeking out ADD with Adderall prescription for exam cram ~ the meds don't just help them stay awake also help them focus too. . . .bad bad bad thing is they can become addicted to hyper focus . . .and build up tolerances to the drug rather rapidly.

Be back to finish up when my male distration is not so distracting . . .he keeps putting his head between my face and the computer screen think he is trying to get my attention? :confused:

meadd823

07-01-06, 07:45 AM

:soapbox: Gifted retarded good bad dysfunction difference environment vs genes. :soapbox:

What is spending time planning one approach and get all your ducks in a row then at the last minute deciding on another approach all together.

It seems like an impairment called impulsive.

I wish I could communicate how much I hate writing words -no words to describe feeling :(

If I did not spend time looking at all the different sites and thinking of five approaches would I still have come to the same conclusion which seems simplistic compared to the amount of time I took to come to it?

Every thing we are reacts to every thing we do every thing we are exposed to both by are parents are the air we breath. If one bad thing didn't happen you would not be who you are if you had missed one of the good moment again you would not be who you are. You may be similar but not the same person.

Now if any one is still awake . . .here is most of the equasion.

we are (genetics) + we experience (stuff & people happening) + we are what we eat (environmental food , air ect) still does not determine the final out come of us as a person all these factors added together then multiplied by how you perceive = sum total. :eek:

Do we need to do some thing different with the school system?

You betcha . . .

What make it more flexible?

Again yes

How . . .?

Offer different varieties of classes based on individual teacher strengths match to complementary style kids.

Could cost any more money :confused:

No . . . no more than present system - failures= welfare people / in justice system / gift not expressing their gifts.

I think expecting the non-dyslexic to learn like I did would not be any closer to right than them expecting me to be like them . . .

Surly there are visual spatial learner teachers . . . a few dyslexic maybe an ADDer or two.

:( Too much cookie cutter don't insert any common sense as the system is built based on non-sense.

:D Now if we could collectively halt the all vs. nothing notions life would make a turn toward common sense. :cool:

We are all the same in that we are all individual who are different.

~If the only occupation available to man kind was farming there would be no inventors,~ however if we were all inventors we would all starve. ~

We should make ALL class rooms wiggle wiggly wiggles friendly?

No . . . as it would drive some to the same feeling as I had in their sit down and shut up environment. Wiggles friendly class rooms should be an option for wiggly wiggle but learning while wiggling kiddos! :o
.
We all have mundane parts in our lives = and our children will continue to as well. Just like finding the right job that accents your talents doesn't prevent you from having to do the mundane like balancing check books, cleaning the cat box and waiting in lines. Offering our child various learning style option will have same effect. It will not prevent them from having to have expectations placed upon them just that what is expected will be possible.Besides there will probably always be lines to wait in.

*Stress isn't the enemy here. If I go through life and never put stress on my right foot it would be useless in a matter of six months. Ever have a part in a cast for months? My point is if there is no stress their is no strength no density no ability, the same holds true in the mental / brain world.

*However there is such a thing as too much stress.
If all ever did was stand on my right and never took my weight off it well that would be no better for it than never standing on it.

***Same logic same same laws apply through out.***

Three main themes all stemming from the only thing that never changes is the constant changes = we are all the same in that we are all uniquely us = the same but different.

Too little stress weak, feeble
Too much stress exhausted, dysfunctional
I do not see with my feet any more than I walk on my eyes

:soapbox: Life isn't an all or nothing proposition people it is a little bit of this mixed with a little of that with a pinch of some thing completely different. ;)

Crazy~Feet

07-01-06, 01:56 PM

Creative writing response, Chapter II:

In a feeble attempt to stay OT I will include the fact that all 4 members of my family have been IQ tested with results over 180 points, whatever that means :rolleyes:, and my brother and I were classified as "gifted" (I in grammar/English and Scientific concepts, he in mathematics) and promptly recieved little to no special accomodations for these "gifts".

::shrugs::Picture, if you will, the 2 characters who came later, "me" and "my brother", clearly raised by the same set of parents in the same place and separated by a mere time frame of almost but not quite 4 years.

"My brother"...the mathematically gifted Golden-Boy, who naturally struck a sympathetic chord to my father's ear. He was able, or seemed to be able, to swallow the Rules and Guidelines presented to him. He became "successful". He "went to college and graduated". He was a "GOOD BOY" who seldom caused any "trouble". He pursued computer programming and made a career and he "made sense".

"Me"...the grammar/English and Scientific concepts gifted Bad Seed, who was incomprehensible to both parents. The Rules and Gudelines baffled and tormented me and I was unable to comply without at least trying to argue my point of view. In short, I always had to ask "But Why??" and shake the foundations of not only my family structure, but also even societal norms, all were questioned at length by me. I did not wish to "go to college" immediately after HS, I explained that I found HS to be stressful and exhausting and requested "time off" to chill and consider what college degree might best suit me. Request "DENIED", not logic