Dear friends,



I am from India and by education and career, I am a psychologist. I have neither ADD nor ADHD. I have combated all my health problems and for about last 6 years my medical bill is nil. Whatever residual problems I have now will have to go in due course. In India hardly people might have heard about the problem. But as I read certain researches on ADD/ADHD has link with anti-social and criminal behavior, I became interested in it. Is it so severe a problem?



As I went through more and more literature and interacted with an ADD/ADHD group through net, I feel now that it is just a matter of attitude(I know many will disagree). As far as my observation goes, most ADD/ADHD people think:



1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.

2. It is incurable and can be managed only chemically.

3. It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia.





On the contrary, Indian thinking is based on either the concept of sthitaprajna (active, serene and stable mind) as described in Shreemadbhagavat Geeta) by Lord Krishna or controlled and regulated mind as described in the Yoga Sutras by Maharshi Patanjali.



While these are goals to attain, not every one attains perfection. But, I think, such a goal has helped Indians not to make an uproar over ADD/ADHD. I do not know whether it is for good or bad.



I hope, healthy interaction will follow.



regards

Hello Jogeshwar,

Nice to meet you. I must say that you have piqued my interest. I am an anthropologist with a focus in psychology. Multi-cultural understandings and perceptions of the mind facsinate me. I have not done any significant research into the larger group understandings and opinions of ADD and can only give you my own personal thoughts and observations.

1) Yes, ADHD does seem to be genetic. Recent studies of brain metabolic rates have shown a biological difference between the ADHD brain and the non-ADHD and that this seems to be passed down in generations. However I do not know that we are not "responsible" for it. It is more like we are not to blame for it, it is not a condition caused by a concious or unconcious behavior. In the US, issues of mental health have long been treated as "moral" problems that could be overcome if one just made the "correct choices". Understanding the genetic nature of ADD helps ameliorate some of the missplaced guilt associated having a behavioral/brain issue.

2) ADD is not curable. It is a disorder thought to be caused by the shape and function of the brain. "Cure" on a large scale understanding is moot. It would be like trying to cure being tall or having brown eyes.
As for chemical treatment, yes, it helps greatly. US culture, with it's economically based focus, places a high value on many of the very things that the ADHD brain has a difficult time doing; such as punctuality,sturcture, organization, speech control, and being of a reserved manner. As a result, many with the disorder are culturally sanctioned though chastisement, social disapproval, job loss, ridicule, poor credit and other unpleasantries. Taking medication helps control the symptoms to allow for greater and more effective social functioning both in about out of the private realm.
It is NOT the only form of treatment. Most experts writing in the field advocate medication as part of a multi-faceted way of life. ADDers are also encouraged to learn sturctures and skills to help with areas of daily life affected but ADD; learn as much as possible about how to live with and what ADD is; find and create a system of people capable of supporting the ADDer when things being too difficult; seek therapy to deal with the experiences of being different and unable to attain the cultural norms. The idea is to live a full life with your ADD, not to bury it.

3) I do not know what the consensus is on how ADD should be understood. There is a debate on going as whether or not it is a mental illness or a medical condition. Personally, I think making it analogous to szchizophrenia is in error. They are not alike in most respects and vary greatly in terms of treatment. But it is a condition that greatly affects most of the people with it. From what I have seen, ADHD is considered, by most, to be a disability, meaning that is legally grouped with conditions such as blindness, deafness, retardation or other physical and mental handicaps. Due to it's mental nature though, being an unseen disability, there is a stigma in US culture (and it appears much of larger Western culture) that is a "moral condition" of "lazy" or "incompetant" people. The goal of social action and support is to educate the larger society of the biological basis on ADHD and to aid in the integration of ADHD people into said larger society, primarly in the economic and educational arenas.


I in turn have a couple of questions for you.

1) In the intro to an ADHD book (who's title escapes me now, but I'll look it up tomorrow at the library) the author talks of being in a train in India and discussing ADHD with this Indian traveling companions. His companions, he says, told him that the features of ADHD (distractedness, flight of ideas, disorganization, difficulties with time and money) are viewed in the Indian [implied Hindu in book] culture as signs that a person is nearing Nirvana and the end of cycle of reincarnation. Could you speak to the accuracy of the views presented in this story and to the Indian understanding of ADHD features?

2)How is the mind both serene and active? In Western culture, these are contrary to each other. How is a person persuing these goals to attain them and what is the systems in which such persuing happens?

3)What is your observations of ADHD and understanding of the issues of mental health/disorders in India?

I apologize for the enormity of my questions. I very rarely have to opportunity to converse with people on these topics outside the academic setting. I hope I have not scared you off with my curiosity. I look foward to hearing more and I hope you find some helpful information here.

Dear Proscrire,

Thanks for your nice reply and I am happy to meet an anthropologist which makes me nostalgic as worked with anthropologists from 1975 to 1981.



So far as genetic theories are concerned, the conclusions of the ethologists are the strongest. Because they arrive at conclusions by the studies on selectively inbred subjects. For example, aggression/tenderness are genetic. But on the contrary, ethnologists conclude the reverse. Culture is such a strong force that it may change the genetic code. The basics of a culture are attitudes and beliefs. Now conclusions on neuroplasticity, probably the latest science, sides with ethnology.(On neuroplasticity, I saw certain articles in meditation and spirituality forum here yesterday).



The genetic basis of ADD/ADHD comes from certain clinical observations, not even from any comparative or co relational studies. So if we can dispense with ethological conclusions, then why not these clinical observations which completely lack scientific rigor?



So as Ashley Monague says learning non-aggression, let us say in the present context learning non-distractability or learning focusing of attention. To learn non-distractability or focusing of attention one needs first of all an attitude and then comprehension, memory, insight, tenacity and non-complacency as I think.



Let us see to what extent we succeed.



Regarding your questions my honest answers are as under:



1. If some one is having a hammer in his hand he can see nails all around. In our Zero Pathology Ganga(morning exercise group) there is only one person whose attention by observation is less sustaining, somewhat fickle but he is quite responsible person. We just have nick named him Chitavan chanchal but no body thinks him to be sick.He enjoys Shoonya meditation the most because time and again he insists that the duration of this exercise should be longer.

2. Yes, the feeling one is to introject is that I am not the doer, it is being done by me. I am only an instrument of Him.

3. I have already told that rarely,if any, such a diagnostic category is known. I knew a son of my friends, husband a chief medical officer and wife a professor in psychology, was distinctly hyperactive. The idea of medical intervention never occurred to them. They only accepted it as problem to be handled with care. Now the boy is M.A. in English and doing a job responsibly.





I enjoyed interacting with you.

regards

So if we can dispense with ethological conclusions, then why not these clinical observations which completely lack scientific rigor?

This looks like fun already!



Some recient reading material (http://http://twm.co.nz/paradcon.htm)
***Quote
SAVING THE PARADIGM
If we don't experience ourselves or each other as free and great beings, it's not because we lack this potential but rather because the paradigm/cookie gadgets our cultures pour us through aren't equal to our essence. We come out twisted, grasping, angry, and insatiable because we know we're more, yet the cultural paradigm has no room for us. The paradigm can't both acknowledge our innate worth and treat us as objects to be subjugated-objects that must be coerced into systems that violate our dignity and potential by their very structures.
Born into the culture, what choice do we have but to be subjugated? Babies and children don't have options but to submit. So we adapt ourselves accordingly. We conform to social systems by adopting the roles that go with them, narrowing ourselves to fit the cultural agenda. We become the competitive, insecure, obedient, brain dead, soul-disconnected creature that our social systems require. If we didn't comply, there'd be no place for social systems to hook into us and control our behavior, which the paradigm says they must do in order to achieve social order.
But instead of social order, the paradigm generates violence and suffering-images of which we see everyday on the news and feelings of which we experience as stress, anxiety, depression, low self-esteem or even self-hate. These images and feelings say nothing about which alternative paradigms might better serve human beings or who we might be if we used less narrowing models. They simply give us feedback about our cultural paradigm.
But paradigm oblivious, we don't interpret culture-wide pain as paradigm related. We don't trace personal and social suffering back to the cultural paradigm and so set the stage for changing it. Instead, we save the paradigm by believing that humans must be fatally flawed and we ourselves more than most. Accepting the cultural paradigm that excludes what's most valuable about us, we view ourselves in the mirror that social systems give us: a mirror of externals. Our paradigm options go unexplored.
***End Quote


How is the mind both serene and active?

Serene is a state of being. Being is actively being, yousers this isn't easy to explain at all - sorry.

***quote I think
How is the mind both serene and active? In Western culture, these are contrary to each other. How is a person perusing these goals to attain them and what is the systems in which such perusing happens?***End Quote


Because to attempt a control of thought is to create more thought. In order to consciously stop the “noise” from with in one attempts this by introducing more noise in the attempt. By allowing the mind to be what it is and not attempt to control the images or ideas is to allow these things to run their co****, in the end they merge with existence.


Sorry sound much like some of the things I have been reading lately on TM, quantum physics and mind body duality.

Pardon the interruption.
Thanks for reading.

Tammy, this is all gobblygook to me :p ..I wish I had a clue what you are saying :faint: I wish I listened in school LOL...

But as I read certain researches on ADD/ADHD has link with anti-social and criminal behavior, I became interested in it.Regarding the anti-social and criminal behavior correlation mentioned above, the following website (CrimeTimes) has tons of scientific studies for those interested in the research that is being done in this particular field of study.

http://www.autismwebsite.com/crimetimes/issues.htm

However, it's strictly scientific studies on their website.

Peace,
*~ §EEK ~*

However, it's strictly scientific studies on their website.
*~ §EEK ~*
gee, I guess I won't be going there then..LOL :D

gee, I guess I won't be going there then..LOL :D:D LOL, they are still interesting Tracy! LOL :D At least take a quick peak silly! :)

:D LOL, they are still interesting Tracy! LOL :D At least take a quick peak silly! :)LOL..serious..I am not stupid, but when I try and read that stuff it looks like a different language to me :p I like Aussie talk!!

I will have a peek though, and let you know if I managed any of it..LOL

...end of cycle of reincarnation... Where reincarnation is a metaphor for a change that began around 10000 years ago, from which written language emerged, and which completed recently.
Reincarnation (here) is a metaphor for the emergence of ADD. All of our yesterdays have lead us to ADD.
...stable mind...We must differentiate between local and global minima. Stability is the global minimum ... but is only attained by violent insult. This idea is represented by the 'creator'-'destroyer' ... two of the three components of the Hindu triumvirate (anthropodeimorphologicametaphorically ... :-) ... writing). The logical structure of mind is rendered most stable by creation-destruction-propagation of components of that structure ... each rearrangement leading us closer to our destination ... herein lies the explanation for ADD exhibiting many apparently contradictory features of mind ... pick your choice of 'hyper' and 'hypo' co-existing within the ADDer mindscape ... and at its or their roots --- will lie the sign 'activate to understand your context in as rich a presentation as is possible' ...

Have you read any Huxley? ...'...Perception Heaven/Hell...'... re-iterates this point ... the point relating to extremes, opposites, contradictions, oscillations from pole to pole ... bipolarity ... bipolar swings ... left ... right ... left ...

~pranam~ ... welcome to the forum, Jogesh ... :-) ...

SB.

But as I read certain researches on ADD/ADHD has link with anti-social and criminal behavior, I became interested in it. Is it so severe a problem?


The short version if interested in expanding dialog in this area I will be more than happy to.

ADHD in and of it self does not increase anti-social or criminal behavior however the social reactions / environmental consequence that are associated with being different often create the negative co-morbid in which you speak.

I notice several responses to which there is no reply from initial poster; therefore I am just going to offer this general statement. I ain't going to go through a lot of looking if no one is interested. Not wanting to be rude just a tad "conservative".

The short version if interested in expanding dialog in this area I will be more than happy to.

ADHD in and of it self does not increase anti-social or criminal behavior however the social reactions / environmental consequence that are associated with being different often create the negative co-morbid in which you speak.

I notice several responses to which there is no reply from initial poster; therefore I am just going to offer this general statement. I ain't going to go through a lot of looking if no one is interested. Not wanting to be rude just a tad "conservative".

Thank you friends for your views. As may be seen from the posts in the "treatment and mangement" section that behaviour modification, counselling and therapy, exercise and meditation and spirituality forums have attracted minimum posts. May be that these forums have invoked the least interest. So learning non-distractability or learning focusing of attention also invokes the least interest.

On the other hand, it appears that my observations in the opening post:

"1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.

2. It is incurable and can be managed only chemically.

3. It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia."


are more or less confirmed.(please correct me if I am wrong).

regards

... if I am wrong ... ~Correction~ (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=308565&postcount=312)

SB.

I TOTALLY agree, with you S.


Nova

Thank you friends for your views. As may be seen from the posts in the "treatment and mangement" section that behaviour modification, counselling and therapy, exercise and meditation and spirituality forums have attracted minimum posts. May be that these forums have invoked the least interest. So learning non-distractability or learning focusing of attention also invokes the least interest.

On the other hand, it appears that my observations in the opening post:

"1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.It is about 80% genetic(with the others factors being prenatal alcohol exposure, exposure to lead, brain trauma, prematurity, etc) and we are still entirely responsible for our actions. According to Russell Barkley a leading ADHD researcher, individuals with ADHD need to be held more accountable, because otherwise they are less likely than others to learn adaptive skills, however the character judgments about laziness, lack of willpower, etc are inaccurate and unhelpful. Understanding how one's mind works makes one more able to address personal responsibility by utilizing methods to deal with ADHD impairments -- IE: medication, exercise, meditation, lifestyle adjustments, psychotherapy, etc.(For example if I had bad eyes and wanted to drive understanding my problem would allow me to get glasses to responsibly address it).

2. It is incurable and can be managed only chemically.There is no currently known cure and research has found that medication is the most effective treatment, but not the only treatment. Behavioral therapy is effective (although not as much) as long as it is consistently and constantly applied with kids (it is much harder to arrange this kind of supervision for adults), but stops working in other environments or when it is suspended. Education, accomodations, and strategies addressing ADD difficulties are also helpful.

3. It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia."


are more or less confirmed.(please correct me if I am wrong).

regardsI don't know of anyone who things that generic ADHD is as serious as schizophrenia which can bring on a complete break with reality. ADHD occurs along a continuum with fairly high functioning individuals who can function in certain high interest environments but who flounder in less stimulating environments to those who have difficulty functioning outside an institution that provides strict structure for their lives.

These are my understandings of ADHD as far as they go.:)

Scattered

Thank you friends for your views. As may be seen from the posts in the "treatment and mangement" section that behaviour modification, counselling and therapy, exercise and meditation and spirituality forums have attracted minimum posts. May be that these forums have invoked the least interest. So learning non-distractability or learning focusing of attention also invokes the least interest.

--- AND ---

1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.

Perhaps that is because ADHD is not a behavior problem? Or a problem with lack of excersize, or lack of spiritual giftedness? Hmm..... That's not to say that such factors aren't important, but ADHD is not caused by such. How is focus not a function of the brain? Why do stimulants decrease distractability? (If this is simply a "willpower" issue?) Just because most here don't see ADHD as purely a willpower/behavior issue (the opinion seemingly being expressed here, correct me if I am wrong) doesn't mean they are uninterested in helping themselves. Why do you think most of the members are here posting on these forums to begin with?

1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.

Well, to a point, this is true. We don't believe we've caused our own problems, but that doesn't mean that we don't want to alleviate the problem. The problem is the different definition of the problem between you and most of the other members here. We see it as a chemical problem, and for good reason. Perhaps your reasoning is plausible for those with ADD who have seemingly "acquired" it later in life, but for those of us that have been this way since the age of conception.... it doesn't seem very logical.

2. It is incurable and can be managed only chemically.

I'm sure most here believe this as well. Irrespective of whether or not this is true, I don't think ADHD is curable and/or managable in the ways you provide here.

3. It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia.

I don't think most here believe this at all. The majority of people here live independently (some are quite successful as well, by any means, not even considering ADD as a factor), whether or not they in fact take medication. Those with ADD may need some accomodations and there are lifestyles incompatable with ADD, but the negative outcome of schizophrenia is much worse than this.

Thanks for streamlining the discussion.

"It is about 80% genetic"

Can any body find a study or studies where the rate of concordance of ADD/ADHD in identical/monozygotic twins, reared apart or reared together is 80%?

regards

jogeshwar posted:



"As I went through more and more literature and interacted with an ADD/ADHD group through net, I feel now that it is just a matter of attitude(I know many will disagree). As far as my observation goes, most ADD/ADHD people think:



1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.



2. It is incurable and can be managed only chemically.



3. It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia."





My response:



My, oh, my. What a post to stir things up a bit! Speaking for myself I do NOT think that "most ADD/ADHD people" hold the above three statements to be their belief.



#1: "It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it."



ADD/ADHD is genetic, but I take responsibility for it. I have developed compensatory strategies throughout life to overcome the difficulties that I have from having ADHD. Were those difficulties real or a matter of will? Here's a childhood memory that shows that it is NOT a matter of will:



I remember sitting at my desk as a 10-year-old in the fifth grade. From the moment I arrived at home until sometimes midnight, I struggled with an inability to focus on my homework assignment. I slapped my face to stay awake. I jumped up and down and ran in place trying to concentrate. I cried. I banged my fist on the desk. I pulled at my hair in utter frustration. However, I was determined and driven to complete my homework assignments. Did I finish them? Sometimes I'd win in my battle with ADHD and complete my homework. Sometimes, I woke up at 5 am, with a sore neck and my homework stuck to my face because I'd fallen asleep at my desk. I then fell exhaustingly into bed. I would later get in trouble with my teachers for not completing my homework. I was so embarrassed that I would just tell them that I forgot to do it.



My parents taught me to never give up -- at anything! Yes, I was always the last to finish the test in every class. Yes, it took me 6 times to pass College Algebra. Yes, it took me 10 years to finish my Bachelor's degree, yet with honors. But, I NEVER gave up. I kept trying. I put in 200% effort every time. I struggled and trudged through, but I had the will to continue and made it through.



#2: "It is incurable and can be managed only chemically."



ADHD is incurable, but it can be managed. It has been proven to be managed through chemical means, and, yes, "behaviour modification, counseling and therapy, exercise and meditation and spirituality". But does everyone have the financial means, time, or interest in all of the above? No. We have a choice of what types of treatment to try. Some people have tried them all with no success. I have found success in a combination of self-therapy, using compensatory strategies, medication, and group therapy (ADD Forums).



#3: "It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia."



Schizophrenia is defined as:

Schizophrenia is a chronic, severe, and disabling brain disorder that affects about 1 percent of people all over the world. People with schizophrenia sometimes hear voices others don’t hear, believe that others are broadcasting their thoughts to the world, or become convinced that others are plotting to harm them. These experiences can make them fearful and withdrawn and cause difficulties when they try to have relationships with others. (NIMH)



ADHD is defined as:

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is a condition that becomes apparent in some children in the preschool and early school years. It is hard for these children to control their behavior and/or pay attention. It is estimated that between 3 and 5 percent of children have ADHD, or approximately 2 million children in the United States. This means that in a classroom of 25 to 30 children, it is likely that at least one will have ADHD….A child with ADHD faces a difficult but not insurmountable task ahead. In order to achieve his or her full potential, he or she should receive help, guidance, and understanding from parents, guidance counselors, and the public education system….Because ADHD often continues into adulthood, this document contains a section on the diagnosis and treatment of ADHD in adults. (NIMH)



Do I believe that ADHD is as severe as schizophrenia? No way! As mentioned above, "a child with ADHD faces a difficult but not insurmountable task ahead". As difficult as my life has been, I have still overcome a great deal of obstacles. I still struggle with some issues, but overall, I view myself as a success.



However, some individuals do have greater deficits than I do -- my mother for instance. She is undiagnosed, but the symptoms of severe ADHD are blaringly obvious in her. She has been and continues to be dependent upon me and others to help organize her chaotic life and clean-up her life mistakes. I would say that she is unable to be independently functional and has not been able to develop strategies to compensate for her weaknesses. So, is her case of ADHD as severe as schizophrenia? It may or may not be, but my mother is incapable of making sound decisions as is evidenced by her grandiose and impulsive-driven wreck of a life. She is indeed chronically disabled. She doesn't hear voices, but she thinks that others are plotting against her and has difficulty in relationships with others. Is she schizophrenic? No. She might have some comorbid psychological issues -- yes, yes, definitely, yes! In summary, she is a mess and functionally disabled.



Now, my mother's case also presents an interesting cultural perspective. My family immigrated to the U.S. in the early 80's. Back in the old country, she was a success as a medical professional. Here, in the States, she struggles to meet the high demands of American culture. As you mentioned, ADHD is not such a big deal in India. Might this be a cultural difference? Although I have a medical diagnosis of ADHD, I might have similar academic struggles, but would my life have been easier in a non-American culture that did not put so much pressure on students for achievement or workers for quality? Are there occupations outside of the U.S. that would suit my ADHD qualities much better? I will never know. However, I do live in the U.S. and plan on staying here so I will continue as I am.



I do appreciate your interest in ADHD and hope that you can learn to empathize with us ADHD folks. It's difficult for those individuals who do not have ADHD to understand what we go through. Remember that this forum is here for us to vent and counsel each other so you may hear mostly complaints. Perhaps, that is why you think that we only complain instead of taking responsibility for our difficulties.



I could say more, but I'll end it on a last note:



It's funny to me that people can understand why a patient with traumatic brain injury has cognitive and functional issues because there is obvious physical evidence.



However, the same people seem to have great difficulty grasping the idea that a person can be born with less obvious brain deficits but may present with the same cognitive and functional issues.



Thank you for your time.

If we could, it might be based on poor science and be incorrect.
If we couldn't, it would not mean that it was not true.

It isn't for others to streamline your discussion. True, pointed and rhetorical questions are simple to tell apart - and presenting one as another is guaranteed to raise the simplest of questions ... that of ... simply ... "?"

Perhaps you feel that ADD is not real? or is real and not pathological? or is false and representative of normal physiological variation? or true and of such a debilitating nature that you believe all individuals with ADD should be placed in an asylum?

... ... ... however, regardless ... it is advisable not to confuse a community for a zoo. Buying into a free community costs ... and Proscrires' questions offered in the spirit of honest enquiry ... are your first toll.

Reasonable expression of views do not result in offence; so, are your views reasonable?

Incidentally - the questions which I list are frequently posed here, of course with the exception of my representation of the essence of your schizophrenic comment ... ... ...

A question of my own - do you believe that Krishnamurti offers any unique perspective in on mind?

SB.

Can any body find a study or studies where the rate of concordance of ADD/ADHD in identical/monozygotic twins, reared apart or reared together is 80%?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9183127&dopt=Abstract

There was a narrow (additive) heritability of 0.75 to 0.91 which was robust across familial relationships (twin, sibling, and twin-sibling) and across definitions of ADHD as part of a continuum or as a disorder with various symptom cutoffs. There was no evidence for nonadditive genetic variation or for shared family environmental effects.
75%-91% additive genetic influence. Keep in mind that this was exactly the type of comparative, co-relational, behavioral-based study that you claimed would never support a genetic basis for ADHD when you said:


The genetic basis of ADD/ADHD comes from certain clinical observations, not even from any comparative or co relational studies. So if we can dispense with ethological conclusions, then why not these clinical observations which completely lack scientific rigor?

I'll accept your concession on this point, no apology is necessary.

However, you make several other errors:

Culture is such a strong force that it may change the genetic code.
Unless by "culture" you mean "gamma rays," I fail to see how culture alone can change an individual's genetic code. It is certainly possible that on a large scale and over a long (centuries) timeline, societal constructs which cause certain individuals to reproduce more often or more successfully could alter the prevalence of certain genes in the larger gene pool, but this is not really relevent here. It does not affect the individual's genetic code. If you still wish to assert this, then please show me evidence that would support such an assertion, as I have not read anything that would even hint that society can change an individual's genetic code.

Now conclusions on neuroplasticity, probably the latest science, sides with ethnology.(On neuroplasticity, I saw certain articles in meditation and spirituality forum here yesterday).
neuroplasticity is a complicated and complex subject. The research that I've seen has implied that certain areas of the brain may have some plasticity in certain ways. On the other hand, it does seem that many regions of the brain are hard-wired to perform certain functions. This is especially true of the striatal pathways which are involved in the etiology of ADHD. These pathways are a critical interface between the limbic system and the frontal lobe. There is very little room for plasticity in this region of the brain.

So as Ashley Monague says learning non-aggression, let us say in the present context learning non-distractability or learning focusing of attention. To learn non-distractability or focusing of attention one needs first of all an attitude and then comprehension, memory, insight, tenacity and non-complacency as I think.



Let us see to what extent we succeed.


And when, after several years of trying, one does not succeed? It is all well and fine to assert this, it certainly costs you nothing to do so. It's pretty easy to just say "hey, go focus harder," just like I'm sure it's easy to tell a schizophrenic to just ignore the voices in his head, or tell someone who is dyslexic to just read slower. Of course, when they spend years trying to do as you assert, and continue to fail, because you continue to insist that they should ignore the scientific consensus on treatment, they are the ones who must deal with the costs of years of waste.

Look, I've tried all of that, ok. When I was tested for ADHD, they gave me an IQ test, the WAIS-III, and I broke it. As in, the doctor called me later that day to tell me that she wasn't sure what my score was, because I'd reached the ceiling on too many subtests, and all they could do was make a low-ball guess as to the real score.

And yet, despite focusing as hard as I could for years in school, I was barely able to make a "C" average. I can guarantee you that my problems were due neither to lack of effort or lack of intellect. So when you say "let's see to what extent we succeed," I just have to laugh. I love how you think that all we need to do is try harder, as if somehow we never thought of that before. As if not a single researcher at NIMH, or AMA, or the American Psychiatric Association, or the American Psychological Association, or the American Academy of Pediatrics, or the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, or the CDC, or the WHO ever bothered to check to see if just trying harder would work.

If some one is having a hammer in his hand he can see nails all around.
Yes, I agree that you ought to put down your hammer and perhaps consider that there might be a deeper explanation than just laziness.

And with your three original points:

1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.ADHD has a prevalence of 3-8% of the population. That means that if I pick a random person, the odds are in that range that he would have ADHD. However, if a child has one parent with the disorder, the odds are roughly 30% that the child will have ADHD. If both parents have ADHD, the odds jump to 50%, and if another sibling also has the disorder, the odds rise to 80%. These numbers are taken from Hallowell and Ratey's Delivered From Distraction.

What those odds mean is that it is almost certain that the disorder is hereditary in nature. Studies on twins have shown that the influence is genetic and not a part of how the child is raised. Further studies have identified several candidate genes, one of which, DRD4, has been repeatedly confirmed as having a very strong correlation with ADHD.

Of course one is always responsile to seeking treatment for one's problems. We do not hold a paraplegic responsible for eing unable to walk, but we do consider him responsible for obtaining a wheelchair with which to move around.

2. It is incurable and can be managed only chemically.This is a straw man argument...I assume you are familiar with the term?

What people are saying is that there is no evidence that the disorder can be cured. The burden of proof is on someone claiming such a cure to demonstrate it via evidence. While there is no evidence that it can be cured, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that medication can treat the disorder and make it manageable, and that medication does so better than any other form of treatment. Multimodal studies comparing different treatment methods have consistently shown that patients given medication always improved more than patients who were not, regardless of whether the medication was given with or without therapy or other treatments added on. Of course there are other things which may help a little it, and anything that improves overall health like diet and exercise will certainly make anyone feel better, but there is no evidence that anything works well without medication.



3. It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia.
I don't know if schizophrenia specifically would be a good comparison. However, there is at the moment in the US a movement called "mental health parity," which pushes insurance companies and healthcare providers to grant psychological, psychiatric, and neurological problems the same status and resource allocation given to physiological problems. I myself support this movement both personally and professionally.

I wouldn't use schizophrenia as a good comparison for ADHD, they're not very similar as disorders. Schizophrenia is an adult onset neuropsychiatric disorder which often completely impairs basic cognitive functioning in an individual. ADHD is a childhood-onset developmental neurological disorder which causes specific cognitive and behavioral symptoms, and often severe difficulties in certain specific life tasks. It is most closely comparable to other neurological developmental disorders such as autism and tourette's syndrome.

You really need to do more reading on the suject. I recommend the National Institute of Mental Health's page on ADHD:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/adhdmenu.cfm

gentics play are part i know an as sactted says 80% an then other fatcoers it deps what it is thats the porblem somethings you have littie control over an somethingss you do >>ive seen no resch to say adhd is as bad as schiz in that you loss reality but again it can never be ruled out that someone in the world will have that...theres so much more to be known befor we can be shore VERY LONG TIME TILL WE KNOW HALF WHY WE HAVE ADD ADHD cures well again deps on your deption ofve cure id not went to lose the things i gaine from this>>from a deyicaxa point view i know that id not give who iam up just the spelling promblsm that go with it so id say the same with add adhd some thie not so nice things...but the grifts would keep????? dorm dono if i gone off subjet again?

wow you are unfamiliar with ADD thinking . . . . . . . first those thing are the further down in the list thingy and the most specific as to subject content
Combined with the following

More people are familiar with counseling - they know what it entails
exercise - ADDer fall in one end of the spectrum or the other= they either tend to be hyper and get exercise writing on forums = can't sit spring in hinney syndrome

or can't remember what they are gettin up after -combo

or

know they should exercise but are not motivated to read about it because it will remind them they aren't

Spirituality a sensitive subject plus still more widely known than
ADD medications. Taking or not taking medications is a big decision.





"1. It is genetic and so we are not responsible for it.

We didn't requisition it, but we are still responsible for our behavior despite ADD.




2. It is incurable and can be managed only chemically.

It is incurable medications are the most successful treatment in 75-80% of the population according to scientific research. Medications however will only deal with the chemistry aspect a multiple. model approach is considered the most effect.




3. It should be recognized as severe as schizophrenia and be given support/social support as good as to schizophrenia."

People with ADD should be accommodated according to need of individual. ADD comes in severity's ( unlike pregnancy.)
ADD also has three sub-types
It is neurologically based according to the latest research findings.

are more or less confirmed.(please correct me if I am wrong).

regards
Your wording of the question I would say "no I don't think I see my ADD in the manner in which you have "gathered".

If English is a second language for ya then I can see where ideas my not come across exactly as one means. Finer points could get mixed up in the syntax or some thing like that.



So when you say "let's see to what extent we succeed," I just have to laugh. I love how you think that all we need to do is try harder, as if somehow we never thought of that before

LOL- agreed.


If we have not answered your three questions then perhaps re framing or re-wording will be more useful here as ADDers notionally have aversion to redundancy. Eventually asking the same questions over and over will result in negative responses. :eek:

It isn't for others to streamline your discussion. True, pointed and rhetorical questions are simple to tell apart - and presenting one as another is guaranteed to raise the simplest of questions ... that of ... simply ... "?"

My point exactly.

Hey I have an idea! . . . . . . :faint:

Raise your hand if you think it is "our turn" to ask questions! :D

*Why do you ask us these questions any way? Same three over and over?.

*If you are not ADD nor are you living with some one who is why are you interested in our corner of the Internet?

*Do you mean to infer ADD can be cured by simply exercising enough, bio-feed back type thing, (try to get a hyperactive to sit still long enough for that to do any good) or some means of spiritual behavior?

or are you

*Inferring that it is our society that is the cause if so how?

*You ain't trying to sell us a "miracle cure" or something of that nature?



however, regardless ... it is advisable not to confuse a community for a zoo. Buying into a free community costs ... and Proscrires' questions offered in the spirit of honest enquiry ... are your first toll.

tolls around here gather interest.(duality)
A reminder of the original . . . .toll.

I in turn have a couple of questions for you.

1) In the intro to an ADHD book (who's title escapes me now, but I'll look it up tomorrow at the library) the author talks of being in a train in India and discussing ADHD with this Indian traveling companions. His companions, he says, told him that the features of ADHD (distractedness, flight of ideas, disorganization, difficulties with time and money) are viewed in the Indian [implied Hindu in book] culture as signs that a person is nearing Nirvana and the end of cycle of reincarnation. Could you speak to the accuracy of the views presented in this story and to the Indian understanding of ADHD features?

2)How is the mind both serene and active? In Western culture, these are contrary to each other. How is a person persuing these goals to attain them and what is the systems in which such persuing happens?

3)What is your observations of ADHD and understanding of the issues of mental health/disorders in India?

This is all the questions we can think of at the moment.


Just because most here don't see ADHD as purely a willpower/behavior issue (the opinion seemingly being expressed here, correct me if I am wrong) doesn't mean they are uninterested in helping themselves. Why do you think most of the members are here posting on these forums to begin with?

On target HF! I think this is a statement we can all agree on.


;)

it depends on the impact of which symptom exactly responsible... I know that I require a pretty high dose of dexedrine to enable myself impulse control... is impulsiveness an issue for me... well let's see... I get mad and people get assaulted and I end up in jail... I have been quite the theif in my younger days also... and getting sidetracked huh??? well for six months I have been sidetracked enough to where it prevented me from getting a job... spending 10,000 dollars in a week when you aren't rich and then getting the emotional hell afterwards... hearing every little noise and not being able to filter it out... 25 thoughts every 30 seconds... impatience so bad that youll run out in front of cars and spare me the "that sounds like bipolar disorder" bologna because guess what... Dexedrine slows that down and levels me out and that is the only medicine I take so yeah in a lot of cases like mine ADHD is severe...

1) In the intro to an ADHD book (who's title escapes me now, but I'll look it up tomorrow at the library) the author talks of being in a train in India and discussing ADHD with this Indian traveling companions. His companions, he says, told him that the features of ADHD (distractedness, flight of ideas, disorganization, difficulties with time and money) are viewed in the Indian [implied Hindu in book] culture as signs that a person is nearing Nirvana and the end of cycle of reincarnation. Could you speak to the accuracy of the views presented in this story and to the Indian understanding of ADHD features?

I can attempt to speak to the accuracy of this statement, but only because I have in the past spent 3 years in a chatroom and had the opportunity to become friends with a Vedic astrologer. I am not permitted to discuss astrology itself due to the forum guidelines and sincerely hope that mod-squad gives me this small bit of leeway- I am attempting to address this particular question and it is my understanding that Vedic astrology is deeply respected in Indian culture.

Kamal would tell me that the above story would be very accurate with regards to my personal experience of ADHD, yes indeed! He was always the one to offer me hope that I was here in this lifetime in this form because I was meant to be. Actually Kamal approached me with his beliefs intact, after observing that I was not infected with "wetiko" (a Native American term meaning "white man's disease", it can be further defined by a Google search), and it is his contention that he and I have known one another through at least a few lifetimes.



Do you mean to infer ADD can be cured by simply exercising enough, bio-feed back type thing, (try to get a hyperactive to sit still long enough for that to do any good) or some means of spiritual behavior?Heh, that's a knee-slapper right there Tammy...while you are at it, please try to get a "severely impaired inattentive" type such as myself to remember to get out the door to attend to biofeedback sessions and then focus on them :eek:...fact is, as it stands today in my life, I am not fit to drive a vehicle unless I am medicated, and don't even suggest a BUS ;). I don't know, maybe if the biofeedback machinery was brought to me in my home? Of course I would need an ADD-friendly baby-sitter to keep my kids during that period of time too, and I still wonder if I would be able to blot out distractions long enough for that to be beneficial to me. I don't know enough about the process to say anything more about that.

Spiritually I would have to say that I was born this way for a reason and don't blame my creator for the ADHD.

Back to square 1 I suppose.


HF, you are dead-on as always :) I wonder if I am ever the slightest bit helpful in these science threads but I do try. I am also as in love with your new ava as I am in love with SB's hamster ;) (old thread moment, cannot recall the thread but the hamster stays with me, how ADHD is that?).

Mspen brings up a good point too...what symptoms and what level of severity are we talking about here? My 10 year old's worst symptom would be impulsivity, mine would have to be the constantly revolving thoughts, and it would seem that my father's would be inability to sit still for even a short period of time without at least some type of twitching going on. None of us can tolerate boredom for very long, but we all respond differently when bored to frustration's saturation point.

it depends on the impact of which symptom exactly responsible... I know that I require a pretty high dose of dexedrine to enable myself impulse control. . . . .is impulsiveness an issue for me . . . . . . . . . . . .well let's see

I understand impulsiveness is a problem for me as well.

I get mad and people get assaulted and I end up in jail... I have been quite the theif in my younger days also... and getting sidetracked huh??? well for six months I have been sidetracked enough to where it prevented me from getting a job... spending 10,000 dollars in a week when you aren't rich and then getting the emotional hell afterwards

The things list above were not how my impulsiveness was expressed. I would say it was your male hood however I have a daughter that has some of these problems. Her temperament is much “higher strung” than mine.



hearing every little noise and not being able to filter it out... 25 thoughts every 30 seconds... impatience so bad that youll run out in front of cars

How ever I have experienced my impulsiveness much the way described here.

I have let things like my drivers license a registration expire by years because I could not stand to wait in line. Grocery shopping consisted of grabbing what ever and getting out of there and if the line was to long I would leave the basket of food and walk out of the store.

What pops into brain comes straight out my mouth no “depot”

I had friends because I have a pretty easy going disposition when I am not waiting in line, made to sit still, listen to some thing boring, or being expected to do some thing unimportant or redundant - including but not limited to home work, room cleaning,

I do think other things come into play along with the biological brain make-up of ADD, temperament being a big one.

I take 80mg-100 mg of Adderall a day and I am not a big person by any means.




spare me the "that sounds like bipolar disorder" bologna

I have been “accused” of being bipolar and even given medication for it - I felt like crap on those meds it was like being in some brain fog from Hades with a body made of lead. I quit taking them because I would rather have the *&#@!ing ADHD No bipolar bologna offerings here.


ADD = consistency impulsive impatient, behavior not changed by mood states

Bipolar = mood, behavior swings in cycles (not consistent.)

I can say that I met my paternal grandmother and it is definitely hereditary in my case... she married my grandfather and his 2 sisters and brother as well as him their parents and every child from that tree are "hyperactive and couldn't stop talking hated small noises... some cousins I have are I guess extreme sports fanatics,wall street... some cocaine addicts... and I have never met these people... my deficit mother was the one who was an idoit and read some bipolar disorder article and told my doctor I was bipolar because I used to set the backyard on fire and I take dexedrine and it is the best "mood stabilizing agent" I have take

from that tree are "hyperactive and couldn't stop talking hated small noises... some cousins I have are I guess extreme sports fanatics,wall street... some cocaine addicts... and I have never met these people

Although I have siblings who also have ADD they do not express the same symptoms I do. In other wards they fall into another "sub-set" My sister falls into the combined catagory but has a lot of inattentive traits which I do not. I have a brother who is also combined but is closer to hyper activity, I am hyperactive and my ADD came complete with an "H" factor and I am a lot more active than any of my siblings.

Me and my inattentive sister has almost opposite problems in some areas. I am to motivated to do too many things and get a dozen projects started with zero completed. She on the other hand sees all the stuff that needs doing and becomes overwhelmed by it all and starts nothing. It is like evry thing else the same but different!

Yes, it is for me. Mine might be bearable if it didn’t cause me so much menial drain.

<o:p></o:p>Also is depression recognized disorder in <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>?

Yes, it is for me. Mine might be bearable if it didn’t cause me so much menial drain.

<o>:p></o>:p>Also is depression recognized disorder in <st1:country-region><st1>:place>India</st1>:place></st1:country-region>? Where did the similes come from, I didn’t put them in the post:confused:

...I knew a son of my friends, husband a chief medical officer and wife a professor in psychology, was distinctly hyperactive. The idea of medical intervention never occurred to them. They only accepted it as problem to be handled with care. Now the boy is M.A. in English and doing a job responsibly....


Just wanted to point out that subjective observations are dangerous when drawing conclusions about things. The above story is true but the conclusion inferred could be false. We must remember that ADHD falls on spectrum and that it is a developmental disorder. So a "high end" ADHDer may stumble as a child but might right themselves as they grow up and grow out (develop) of the disorder. ADHD is not a static condition for everyone who has it, some ADHDers change through time. Thus we may see mature ADHDers mentally doing things they could have never done as a child. On the other hand, those on the bottom end of the spectrum with the most severe form of ADHD will have great difficulty functioning independently in society and most likely have little if any developmental improvement.

Finally, after trying to train ADHD kids to self organize, allow me to make this personal generalization. There is little benefit to training the mind to do something that it is not ready for. ( Yeah, I'm talking about the mind being developmentally ready to do something...and yeah ADHDers are generally lacking in some key cognitive skill sets. ) Sure, you may get results but either they don't hold onto these learned skills or the amount of time that was spent to get the results could have been put to much better use learning another skill set that is equally as beneficial to the individual.

"Just wanted to point out that subjective observations are dangerous when drawing conclusions about things"

What are the objective measurements of ADD/ADHD?
regards

What are the objective measurements of ADD/ADHD?
regards

I can tell you that if you are generalizing or inferring about all ADHD, an objective measurement won't be your friend's son. Having said that, personal experiences are often used to make generalized judgments about ADHD by our members. That's not to say that this is good practice, it's not...especially since this is not a homogenious disorder. On the other hand, subjective experiences are excellent for illuminating objective observations.

When I hear the word "objective" I immediately think of the Scientific method, no matter how flawed it may be in practice. There is no more studied disorder, then ADHD. Over time there has been a consensus of information about the disorder. Not all is know, but mankind is no longer in the dark about this disorder as it was 25 years ago.

Here is a link to a good and very detailed overview about the disorder.
http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course003.php


...and back to your orginial question, "how severe is ADHD"? I believe it has been compared to Autism in it's ability to impair. I don't have a direct link to support that point.

Thanks Scuro. I regularly receive google alert on "measurement of attention deficit"


Do you consider "maternal rating scales" objective?

regards

Thanks Scuro. I regularly receive google alert on "measurement of attention deficit"


Do you consider "maternal rating scales" objective?

regards

Objective for what? Using the context of our discusion, were you asking if those scales are objective for making inferences or generalizing judgements about ADHD? Personally, I think the answer to that question is no.

which at the present moment in time is a wonderful thing.

Scuro I totally agreed with what I have quoted below.

We must remember that ADHD falls on spectrum and that it is a developmental disorder. So a "high end" ADHDer may stumble as a child but might right themselves as they grow up and grow out (develop) of the disorder. ADHD is not a static condition for everyone who has it, some ADHDers change through time. Thus we may see mature ADHDers mentally doing things they could have never done as a child. On the other hand, those on the bottom end of the spectrum with the most severe form of ADHD will have great difficulty functioning independently in society and most likely have little if any developmental improvement.

Weather subjective or objective ADD traits do come in degrees. Some ADDErs are very functional while others do not fair so well. Although much may depend on the severity of the disorder itself, one must remember that ADD comes attached to a person. An ADD person is just like the rest of the humanoids on the planet we also come with a temperament, personal style, and histories.

Although I am hyperactive I consider myself pretty high functioning; I never was physically violent nor have I have many of the legal and social issues some of my fellow hyperactive ADDers have experienced. It may appear on the surface that this statement means perhaps my ADHD wasn't sever; however, this would not be the case. According to my doctor I have moderate to sever hyperactivity.

I think that having a mild temperament was an asset, being female and less prone to aggression may have also helped. I have an adaptable learning style and a decent degree of intelligence. Other things that I believe have been an asset was my mothers ability to accept me for who I was. She looked for and even invented ways of teaching me to function that worked for me instead of expecting me to fit inside of some preconceived box. Therefore I learned how to modify certain areas so that I could better function. It never dawned on me to feel bad because I didn’t do things like every one else.(which varies according to individual abilities any way)

Teaching children is a good thing but many forget that teaching is best done by example. Want a child to accept them selves then accept them for who they are. Want your child to accept responsibility then do so your self. My mother drew boundaries that were clear cut and possible, boundaries she herself applied to her own life. My mother taught me lying was unacceptable by telling me the honest answers to my many questions. . . . I was old enough to ask I was old enough for the truth!

I am in no way trying to use personal experience to down play what Scuro has said but among all the studies, subjective verse objective arguments, long reports by experts and dialog about what children with ADD can / can not learn thus and such, let us not forget behind every diagnosis of ADD is a human being who is unique. ADD will effect every one who has it differently. There are as many expressions of ADD as there are people who have it to express.

I have a quote from one of the books I am reading but shall close here for now as I have some chores I must attend to besides some complain when my post are too long and have a hard time when I address multiple issues in a single post.

Objective for what? Using the context of our discusion, were you asking if those scales are objective for making inferences or generalizing judgements about ADHD? Personally, I think the answer to that question is no.
Thanks scuro."Objective for what?" I mean for the measurement of ADD/ADHD.
regards

A parent would inherently be incapable of providing an objective observation because of the emotions produced by behavior due to the feelings they have attached to their off spring.

This would be opposed to a clinician who would not have any personal feelings about the child's behavior nor would they have any emotions attached to a particular child in their study. Therefore a clinician would simply be able to record observations without bias.

Thanks scuro."Objective for what?" I mean for the measurement of ADD/ADHD.
regards
The practioner must establish history and impairment to determine if someone has ADHD. "No impairment, no disorder". ADHD is a chronic disorder. You are not going to have ADHD one season and then it's going to go away for a while, only to find that when your energy levels are up...you have a full blown case in the spring.

The practioner does not determine these things through rating scales. Rating scales are used to look at the severity of the disorder. A practioner can diagnosis ADHD without maternal rating scales.

Everyone is different; everyone brings different things to the table. There are multiple possibilities for every condition...for life itself. This is what makes life so uniquely interesting. Practioners can predict outcomes and be wrong even though statistically they were right in their judgment. One Practioner told me that at her retirement party, "that the thing she learned was that some kids do remarkably well later in life, given their conditions as children". ADHD is a developmental disorder...things can change.

You could make the argument that perhaps kids should never know, because this knowledge will weigh them down and discourage them from even trying. Personally, I have observed that the kids with disorders that have the best outcomes have parents who totally believe in them. This type of parent knows their kid inside and out and doesn't say stuff like, "he is just lazy and like his dad, he needs to be out of school and working". The other key to success is that these students have an excellent sense of who they are. They know their limitations and how to get around them. Kids and parents who are in denial tend to blame everything else on this planet for failure. They also readily accept that their failure is because they are "stupid". The kid with good insight accepts failure and has a better understanding of where things broke down.

"The practioner must establish history and impairment to determine if someone has ADHD"

1.History is collected mostly from words of mouth. Memory undergoes constant distortion. Reportng is subjective.

2. The practioners' assessments may vary. That too is subjective.

3.Measurement in research may be more rigourous than assessment by practitioners. But even researchers use ratings/maternal rating scales.

regards

"The practioner must establish history and impairment to determine if someone has ADHD"...Scuro is correct!

1.History is collected mostly from words of mouth. Memory undergoes constant distortion. Reportng is subjective.

Um that's a wee bit rude ya know. There is such a thing as a Report Card for students which includes comments from teachers such as "intelligent yet not working up to potential" or "cannot remain seated".

2. The practioners' assessments may vary. That too is subjective.

This can also be explained by the emergence and identification of comorbid conditions.


3.Measurement in research may be more rigourous than assessment by practitioners. But even researchers use ratings/maternal rating scales.

Well, what do you suggest?

Scuro? Have a snack and quote this guy some Barkely, please?

Hyperion, please explain the scientific method.

Barb? You know what to do. ;)

As for me? I am perilously close to flaming.

Jogeshwar,

The points you made are the points that Scientology and that crowd of like minded people ( see Baughman or Breggen ) make. There is no completly objective test for ADHD. Where is the blood test they ask? Right they are, there is no 100% objective test for ADHD...but then again where is that test for Schizophrena, Autism, Major Depression, Alzheimers...etc etc. We as a society don't question these disorders because the behaviours are so outwardly obvious that we know something is wrong. There are some who still do question the very existence of any disorder, like Baughman et al and Scientology. That is because they have to believe that all poor behaviour is caused by bad things in the past or poor choice. They are not open to other possibilities.

My question for you Jogeshwar, is can you have an impairing condition over your lifetime, for which there is no 100% objective test? ...and if so why did you make the point of objectivity with regards to determining ADHD?

...and what point were you making here?
3.Measurement in research may be more rigourous than assessment by practitioners. But even researchers use ratings/maternal rating scales.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/heeheeHEEE.gif We do not know the root cause for all cancers, nor do we know the root cause for ignorance. The cure for ignorance has been determined to be "education".

A repeat of a section of post #19 from this thread.

Why not tell us what's on your mind?
Things'll be kinda' easier that way ... ... ...

{q>
Perhaps you feel that ADD is not real? or is real and not pathological? or is false and representative of normal physiological variation? or true and of such a debilitating nature that you believe all individuals with ADD should be placed in an asylum?
<q}>
Proscrire mentioned a book to you in post #2.

Have you read this text?

Here it is (again) (again)

{q>
I in turn have a couple of questions for you.
1) In the intro to an ADHD book (who's title escapes me now, but I'll look it up tomorrow at the library) the author talks of being in a train in India and discussing ADHD with this Indian traveling companions. His companions, he says, told him that the features of ADHD (distractedness, flight of ideas, disorganization, difficulties with time and money) are viewed in the Indian [implied Hindu in book] culture as signs that a person is nearing Nirvana and the end of cycle of reincarnation. Could you speak to the accuracy of the views presented in this story and to the Indian understanding of ADHD features?
<q}>
I am genuinely interested.
Moreso - it is perhaps the single most important idea lodged in my mind relating to ADD ... as I write ...
... please enlighten me (with any nods to that pun being met with gently approval) ... ... ...

SB.
</q}></q}>

<q}>{q></q}>as signs that a person is nearingPerhaps Jogesh - you need to see the benefits of community - in order to benefit from our community ... ... ...

From the question above ->->->-
... to the answer below (in minutes) ->->->-
... {Thanks kv} ...
ADDF thread::Why??? post #26 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=331470&postcount=26) ->->->-
... to the means to communicate with the author (in seconds) ->->->-
ADDF thread::Hunter/Gatherer post #4 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=252510&postcount=4) ->->->-
... {ADDF member::Carla B.} ...

... c-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y of e-q-u-a-l-s ... Do not feed the animals! ...

SB.

"My question for you Jogeshwar, is can you have an impairing condition over your lifetime, for which there is no 100% objective test? ...and if so why did you make the point of objectivity with regards to determining ADHD?"

Dear Scuro! The point of subjectivity(impliedly objectivity too) was raised by you not by me.

regards

This type of parent knows their kid inside and out and doesn't say stuff like, "he is just lazy and like his dad, he needs to be out of school and working". The other key to success is that these students have an excellent sense of who they are. They know their limitations and how to get around them. Kids and parents who are in denial tend to blame everything else on this planet for failure. They also readily accept that their failure is because they are "stupid". The kid with good insight accepts failure and has a better understanding of where things broke down.


Okay scuro write the date on the calendar because I like totally agree. My mother was very accepting however she also had specific expectations also. They were few but taking responsibility was among them. She invented modifications before there was a word for what she did. She knew I had BA = boredom aversion so I was allowed to do things with my hands quietly (draw, color, read, paper-dolls ect) in church however I was not allowed to be disruptive to others who were trying to listen.

I do not think calling children lazy is very productive either. I understand there are parents who do not value education. Many of those parents them selves are not educated.

I may "dis" the school system however I am from a very educated family. Even the women in my family were educated during times when most were not, naturally thier choice of feild / profession was limited (teachers / nurses /secrataries more teachers and nurse than sectaries though)



As for me? I am perilously close to flaming.

Did I just sleep read? Wow you sound really upset here I am glad you resisted the urge to flame this aint worth getting in trouble over.




Well, what do you suggest?

Scuro? Have a snack and quote this guy some Barkley, please?

Hyperion, please explain the scientific method.

Barb? You know what to do-

This is a very strange request list ?



The points you made are the points that Scientology and that crowd of like minded people ( see Baughman or Breggen ) make

I am not sure these references will mean the same thing to some one from India as they do to most people here. I guess he could Google them and find out who they are however he still may not understand your connotation . . .(a mere observation, nothing more)


Jogeshwar Scuro is asking if you are against all psychology/ psychiatry which by the way is a good question and worthy of an answer.

***Okay administration now writing the date on the calendar (SB, Crazy~Feet, meadd and Scuro agreeing on a point- miracles do happen)***


Baughman et al and Scientology. That is because they have to believe that all poor behavior is caused by bad things in the past or poor choice. They are not open to other possibilities.

Jogeshwar Are you eluding to a belief in no such thing as conditions that effect people’s mind or you simply not getting the ADD thing?.

I will be flat out honest people are getting upset because they do not understand exactly what you are eluding to and you have not been forth coming with answers to our questions despite the fact we have been generous in answering your questions. This is not fair to us nor do I believe this behavior right no matter what culture you are from .

You write enough English to ask questions I am assuming you are equally as able to answer this one.


Are you against all psychology/ psychiatry practices involving the use of medication ???


Not being a regular I do not think you could understand that two groups of people with opposing positions on most things (like the day of the week) are now agreeing that it is your turn to answer a question of ours.

I understand diversity, the persons here represent such differences that we are very familiar with various perspectives however NONE of us understand this one way expectation where we answer your questions while you ignore ours. . . those posting now represent three different countries and we ALL consider your unwillingness to answer even one question we have asked as RUDE!


:soapbox: In this ADD portion of the internet conversation is a give and take exchange ;to presume other wise is dead wrong! :soapbox:

Dear meadd! I am awaiting your response in the thread "Has Anyone Ever Tried Hypnosis?" you may prefer to respond.

regards

any L otataion is hard an diffcut with your add adhd apasguers....or dyelixa dorm i still maintain that its the pepole that make the porblem more not the condition so to speak or diff rewireing dorm

Dear Scuro! The point of subjectivity(impliedly objectivity too) was raised by you not by me.

regards

Right you are Jogeshwar!..but we are comparing apples and oranges here.

My point was that through your personal observations of your friend's son, conclusions were being inferred about what ADHD was and how that subjective observation strayed from the standard scientific understanding of what ADHD is.

Rather then state that your personal observation shouldn't have been used as the basis of inferring what this complex and misunderstood disorder is, you point out that the diagnosis of ADHD is not 100% objective. That observation my friend, does not justify the error in thinking. :)

Dear Scuro,

I am an Indian and talking from India. In india hardly any one even heard of the concepts ADD/ADHD. There can hardly be any practitioner who might be getting any case of ADD/ADHD though India is a country of over 1 billion population size.

by nature Indians want to gain knowledge about a hammer which can drive at least tens of nails but do not like to gain knowledge of 10 hammers which can drive just one nail.

go to any road side magazine stall, you can see about a dozen popular magazines on Ayurveda but not a single magazine on either psychology or psychiatry.

millions of people wait to view Ramdeo baba's TV programme on yoga/pranayama at 8.30 p.m. but hardly any body will listen to any psychiatrist or psychologist here.

Please go ahead Scuro as you people deem right.bye.
regards

go to any road side magazine stall, you can see about a dozen popular magazines on Ayurveda but not a single magazine on either psychology or psychiatry.
And has it not occurred to you that this may be partially responsible for why India, despite being the world's single largest democracy, the second most populous nation in the world, ranks 121st in GDP per capita? 3 times the population of the US, and a fifth of the total GDP.

http://aol.countrywatch.com/includes/grank/globrank.asp?TBLS=PPP+Method+Tables&vCOUNTRY=17&TYPE=GRANK

It is no coincidence that scientific rigor is tied to economic growth. It is only by applying the scientific method that one can separate the wheat from the chaff. You may feel free to grant special priveledges to folk remedies rather than evidence-based medicine, but understand that doing so will only hurt you in the long run.

When a society ignores proper mental health treatment, it only sets itself up for greater costs in the future. In America, independent studies have confirmed a common set of symptoms, as well as neurological differences between people with ADHD and those without, and the largest study ever done on childhood mental health issues confirmed that medication was the single most effective treatment for the disorder.

Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter whether you believe me, because this isn't a question of belief. It is a question of examining evidence and forming conclusions, of formulating a hypothesis and creating an objective method for testing it. That is the basis of the scienific method.

It is sad to see India's long history of scientific accomplishment (Chandrasekhar, for instance) receeding in the wake of supersition and traditional healing methods. That your country ignores the subjects of psychology and psychiatry, and relevant scientific efidenfe is not something of which to be proud.

Okay scuro write the date on the calendar because I like totally agree.Me too! Because this type of parent (in denial) might have been my parents, and the other type might have been ME

This type of parent knows their kid inside and out and doesn't say stuff like, "he is just lazy and like his dad, he needs to be out of school and working". The other key to success is that these students have an excellent sense of who they are. They know their limitations and how to get around them. Kids and parents who are in denial tend to blame everything else on this planet for failure. They also readily accept that their failure is because they are "stupid". The kid with good insight accepts failure and has a better understanding of where things broke down. This is a very strange request list ?
Well, hey, am I or am I not a very strange person? :p Jogeshwar, please take notes OK? I happen to be a genius level IQ and I am positively loaded with ADHD, SEVERE ADHD.

***Okay administration now writing the date on the calendar (SB, Crazy~Feet, meadd and Scuro agreeing on a point- miracles do happen)*** Thanks be to all the Dieties extant!

I am an Indian and talking from India. In india hardly any one even heard of the concepts ADD/ADHD. There can hardly be any practitioner who might be getting any case of ADD/ADHD though India is a country of over 1 billion population size.Treading carefully now, hoping admin. will give me the leeway I need to make my point here...Jogeshwar, will you please click HERE (http://gifts4indian.tolshop.com/astrology/indian/service_catalogue.php?cat=%7C0%7C1405%7C1410%7C153 4%7C1754%7C)...this man is a friend of mine, an Indian. He might tell me my "disorders" stem from my chart placements, and he may be right. The bottom line is I do not live in India and I was not raised there, and at least HE understands that. He would guide me in adjusting my life for the culture I happen to reside in.

Kamal Kapoor is a friend of mine. He would help me in any way he was able then allow me to work things out within my own context. In short, he understands the difference between apples and oranges.

And has it not occurred to you that this may be partially responsible for why India, despite being the world's single largest democracy, the second most populous nation in the world, ranks 121st in GDP per capita? 3 times the population of the US, and a fifth of the total GDP.

http://aol.countrywatch.com/includes/grank/globrank.asp?TBLS=PPP+Method+Tables&vCOUNTRY=17&TYPE=GRANK

It is no coincidence that scientific rigor is tied to economic growth. It is only by applying the scientific method that one can separate the wheat from the chaff. You may feel free to grant special priveledges to folk remedies rather than evidence-based medicine, but understand that doing so will only hurt you in the long run.

When a society ignores proper mental health treatment, it only sets itself up for greater costs in the future. In America, independent studies have confirmed a common set of symptoms, as well as neurological differences between people with ADHD and those without, and the largest study ever done on childhood mental health issues confirmed that medication was the single most effective treatment for the disorder.

Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter whether you believe me, because this isn't a question of belief. It is a question of examining evidence and forming conclusions, of formulating a hypothesis and creating an objective method for testing it. That is the basis of the scienific method.

It is sad to see India's long history of scientific accomplishment (Chandrasekhar, for instance) receeding in the wake of supersition and traditional healing methods. That your country ignores the subjects of psychology and psychiatry, and relevant scientific efidenfe is not something of which to be proud.

Wait and see.
regards

Wait and see.
regardsPlease send my regards to my pal Kamal.

Thank you for your response Joegshwar it is appreciated. Now I can better understand why you are asking us these questions.


You are correct that much of why we are mis-understanding each other is our approach to questions. Thank you verifying this, I was unsure.

Some thing you may not be aware of that I should probably tell you out right is some times people get on here and post “Is ADD real questions” in order to put us down or draw us into un-necessary conflicts just so they can fulfill their personal agenda’s. I am not accusing you of this I truly believe you see things way differently due to our cultural differences.


by nature Indians want to gain knowledge about a hammer which can drive at least tens of nails but do not like to gain knowledge of 10 hammers which can drive just one nail.

This means your culture observes one thing very carefully in detail as opposed to looking at ten things in abroad generalization and comparing these differences in this single group?

As some one who uses hammer I want to see if I can use your analogy to help explain the differences in perspectives.

1)All hammers are not alike:

2)Hammers aren’t the only way to drive nails.




1)Different hammers have different characters

A) We have the
*framing hammer
*The sledge hammer
*Ball peen hammer
*The pick
*Roof’s hammer is often referred to as an ax even though they do not chop trees down with it.


B) We have
* hyperactive ADD
*We have inattentive ADD
*We have combined type ADD
*We have ADD mixed with other disorders

2) Hammers aren’t the only thing used to drive nails

A)Although framing hammer 8oz-12 oz size are the most common tool used they are by no means the only tool that is capable of driving nails

*We have the nail gun. These come in various sizes from the very large to the very small.

*We have large nailing machines that are capable of driving multiple nails at once – these are often used at pallets companies to nail the entire side of a pallet in one swift motion

*One can in a pinch use a large flat rock to drive a nail into some thing.

B) Despite the fact that medications are used most often to treat ADD they are not the only means of treatment, medications work best when used as part of an individual treatment plan.

C)There is also 20% of the ADD population who can not use meds or for whom medications are not effective

*There is cognitive exercises

*Herbal supplements or natural remedies

*Behavior and life style modifications

*Biofeedback


C)Statistics indicate that the framing hammer is the most frequently used nail driving device and will adequately provide all the nail driving needs of the average American There is apx 20% of the population whom will not get adequate results from a single framing hammer.

I am in that 20% I find the use of a nail gun most efficient, not only in debates but also in my second job which requires I drive apx 900 nails an hour to be profitable.

Statistics indicate a majority of the ADD population finds the used of medication to be the most successful treatment to control their ADD symptoms, but there is that 20% whom must research alternative treatments for their ADD!


I hope this has helped.

I will try to read the hypnosis question you have posted if I do not get to it this morning I shall do so tonight when I return from work.

NOTE: Please refrain from making comments about other members directly! Such is considered flaming, which is against ADDF guidelines. Please see here (http://www.addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75) for more details!

Also... it would be nice to get back to the topic here, and not talk about the nations in which others belong... :) I'm coming back here to reply, later on today hopefully...

To tell you the truth Jogeshwar, most people in North America don't care about ADHD unless someone in their immediate family has ADHD or they have ADHD. They may have heard about it and know about a symptom or two but that is about it. Even fellow board members who have the disorder don't always fully understand how it impairs them. Many people in North American society don't believe it to be truly impairing. But you know, this isn't a popularity contest. We don't have to take a vote to see if ADHD should be real or not. The overwhelming scientific evidence supports that it is a real disorder. In the future, as we understand ADHD better, and have a 100% objective test, the disorder will be accepted to be as real as Schizophrenia.

Paraphrasing Bill, "Time's glory is to...bring truth to light". I can wait till that time. As the global knowledge of mankind moves forward, so too will mankind's understanding of the disorder.

Also... it would be nice to get back to the topic here, and not talk about the nations in which others belong... :) I'm coming back here to reply, later on today hopefully...
I apologize if my remarks were taken in the wrong way, but this is an area where I have some expertise. I was merely discussing the fact that healthcare plays a huge role in a nation's economy, and that different approaches will have different results.

The truth of the matter is that regardless of the area of healthcare, whether we're talking mental health, infectious disease, long-term care, preventative medicine, pediatrics, etc., you will pay the costs of healthcare in one form or another. What we find is that the actual cost of healthcare is in many ways less important than the quality of care (which is one driving factor behind the pay-for-performance movement in America), because inefficient and ineffective care, regardless of the cost, is expensive. Hideously expensive. Failing to treat a medical condition for which there is more than ample evidence of etiology, harm, and effective treatment is going to create problems. If this failure is a part of a systemic failure of the healthcare system at large, where there is no system of separating evidence-based medicine from medicine which is merely popular but unproven, then the effects that this will have across the economy as a whole will be devastating.

With mental health specifically, a lack of effective treatment options can be even worse than in many other fields (with the obvious exception of infectious disease). Pediatric mental health is even more important, because of the large potential involved, either good or bad. One of the things about mental health is that because these illnesses are not usually fatal, a failure to treat means a long future of costs to society in terms of lost productivity, monitoring and support, and law enforcement and incarceration if they wind up running afoul of the law. Now, mental health treatment can be expensive, especially effective treatment, but the resulting payoffs definitely make it worthwhile, especially when we're talking about children with a long future of potentially productive years, and even more so when the treatment itself is medication that is fairly cheap and easy to administer.

As I said, a nation's economy will reflect the state of the nation's healthcare system. Individual policymakers in the various nations certainly have the right to self-determination and may choose to enact whatever policies that they wish, but they cannot change the laws of nature or the laws of the market. If one chooses policy A, one gets outcome B, if one chooses policy C, one gets outcome D.

Please send my regards to my pal Kamal.

From the link you provided, i see that Kamal Kapoor is a Vedic Astrologer. What are you? He is stranger to me.His profession is stranger to mine. So I find your request unusual.
regards

NOTE: Please refrain from making comments about other members directly! Such is considered flaming, which is against ADDF guidelines. Please see here (http://www.addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75) for more details!

Also... it would be nice to get back to the topic here, and not talk about the nations in which others belong... :) I'm coming back here to reply, later on today hopefully...
attacking the author instead of or while attacking the argument, I think, is called fallacy of argumentum ad baculum.
regards

I'm innocent this time :)

I'm innocent this time :)Heh, it is my fault maybe?

The heavens may fall if we keep agreeing, Scuro! :D

I'm innocent this time :)

But who accused you of being a culprit Scuro?
regards

attacking the author instead of or while attacking the argument, I think, is called fallacy of argumentum ad baculum.
regards

Attacking the moderator instead of or while attacking the problem the moderator is trying to address, I think, is called asking for punishment. :)

Regards.

... perhaps there are aspects of community which only those who strive to be within community can understand, including history; September is the month this year - I look forward to the light. 'ad hominem' is better ... 'usage'.

SB.

Heh, it is my fault maybe?

The heavens may fall if we keep agreeing, Scuro! :D


Just a day a back in another forum I stated that SC/HC can strke down any ultravires legislation. So a participant responded that he differs with me.......... And my response was that I can not arrest your difference but I am correct........

But here I wonder! heaven may fall if we agree or disagree with some one.

With none we can agree or disagree completely. Here complete disagreement is proposed against Scuro. Can it be called dogmatism/closed mindedness?
regards

Attacking the moderator instead of or while attacking the problem the moderator is trying to address, I think, is called asking for punishment. :)

Regards.
If one or more of my posts reflect so, I apologise unconditionally.
regards

~Correction~
SB.
'challenging the future with a profound lack of history'

Do you know his story?
Are you looking forwards to seeing the light?
Or sheltered under some illusion of low dimensionality to communication?

... perhaps there are aspects of community which only those who strive to be within community can understand, including history; Well done, my old friend! Which explains this:

But here I wonder! heaven may fall if we agree or disagree with some one.

With none we can agree or disagree completely. Here complete disagreement is proposed against Scuro. Can it be called dogmatism/closed mindedness?Means it can be called "past history" between myself and Scuro, and how we sometimes agree, and sometimes don't ;). Going as far as to call it closedmindedness or dogmatism would be taking it a little too far, IMHO. If it appeared to be anything other than the joke it was meant to be, I am sure Scuro would have alerted me to his lack of amusement by now :D.

I look forward to the light.

http://z.about.com/d/hinduism/1/0/s/9/om8.jpg

Are you looking forwards to the light?~{SB}~

If ...Only one person will ever know, you know.
Only one person will ever know, you know!
Only one person will ever know, you know?
Only one person will ever know, you know???

You do, you know, You really do.
If ...Conditional unconditional apologies pale in sincerity against the purely nonconditional.

But who accused you of being a culprit Scuro?
regards

No one accused me, if there is trouble, I'm just naturally seen as a culprit around here and it's a shoot first, ask questions later type of a deal. ;)

These are "in" jokes Jogeshwar. If you had been around for a while, all would be clear.

No one accused my, if there is trouble, I'm just naturally seen as a culprit around here and it's a shoot first ask questions later type of a deal. ;)

These are "in" jokes Jogeshwar. If you had been around for a while, all would be clear.http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/truce.gif

No one accused me, if there is trouble, I'm just naturally seen as a culprit around here and it's a shoot first, ask questions later type of a deal. ;)

These are "in" jokes Jogeshwar. If you had been around for a while, all would be clear.
Dear Scuro,

As I understand the levels are:

1.joke- when a remark or the like is enjoyed by the target and the author then it becomes a joke.

2. Taunt-when a remark or the like is enjoyed only by the author and not by the target then it becomes a taunt.

3.Mischief-when something said or done harms/injures the target then it becomes a mischief.

Are such differentiations made here?
regards

I would like to respond with some of my thoughts.

And I'd like to use hepatitis and diabetes to illustrate a few points I'd like to make about ADD, ADHD, etc.

From Men's Health Magazine - so this is mainstream knowledge.

Hepatitis is believed to have existed in some form since ancient times. It is known, for example, that a diseases existed that affected the liver and caused yellowing of the skin. In 1963 there was a major breakthrough which identified serum hepatitis and its cause, named the hepatitis B virus (HBV). Ten years later the cause of infectious hepatitis was found and named the Hepatitis A virus (HAV) and although scientists knew other viruses existed it was not until 1989 that the hepatitis C virus (HCV) was isolated. Although the hepatitis delta virus (HDV) was known about from the mid 1970s, it was only in the late 1980s -1990 that it was understood to exist only in the presence of hepatitis B. In 1990 hepatitis E virus (HEV) and in 1995, Hepatitis G virus (HGV), were identified. Other viruses, hepatitis F virus (HFV) and transfusion transmission virus (TTV), are thought to exist, but as yet unproven.

It took 30 years for technology to be developed that would identify these different types.
Hepatitis can be highly contageous or not at all.
It can be debilitating and ultimately fatal.
A liver transplant is an expensive remedy.
And 250 million people worldwide are affected by hepatitis C.
400 million are chronic carriers of Hep B.

Diabetes follows a similar history, but my point differs here.

There are four main themes of research: insulin secretion and gene therapy;
antidiabetic actions of structurally modified peptides;
discovery, targets and action of antidiabetic agents;
and mechanisms of pancreatic beta cell dysfuntion and consequences of insulin glycation.
Genes and factors may influence the risk of developing this disease.
Genetic defects in insulin action, pancreas, endocrine system, chemical-induced, etc.

So back to us. A current theory is that too much dopamine may cause schizophrenia and antipsychotic drugs prevent dopamine from binding to dopamine receptors {decrease brain dopamine levels.}
Dopamine producing neurons come into play with desire or pleasure. When these neurons are destroyed, trembling occurs {Parkinson's disease.} Perhaps some of us are born with impaired neurons or not enough of them.


Although there are over 80 known different "transmitters" in the brain, each nerve ending only has one type. These "neurotransmitters" tend to be grouped together and each seems to have specific roles e.g.;-

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="98%" bgColor=#ffff99 border=1><TBODY><TR><TH align=left width="22%" bgColor=#000080>Transmitter</TH><TH align=left width="38%" bgColor=#000080>What it seems to do

</TH><TH align=left width="39%" bgColor=#000080>Problems if it gets out of balance

</TH></TR><TR><TH align=left width="22%">Serotonin or 5-HT

</TH><TH align=left width="38%">In the body, 5-HT is involved with blood pressure and gut control.

In the brain, it controls mood, emotions, sleep/wake, feeding, temperature regulation, etc.

</TH><TH align=left width="39%">Too much serotonin and you feel sick, less hungry, get headaches or migraines

Too little and you feel depressed, drowsy etc.

</TH></TR><TR><TH align=left width="22%">Dopamine




- there are three main groups (or pathways) of dopamine neurones in the brain

</TH><TH align=left width="38%">In the brain, one group controls muscle tension and another controls e.g. emotions, perceptions, sorting out what is real/important/imaginary etc.

</TH><TH align=left width="39%">Not enough dopamine in the first group and your muscles tighten up (e.g. as in Parkinson's Disease).

Too much dopamine in the second group gives you an overactive brain i.e. too much "perception e.g. you may see, hear or imagine things that are not real

</TH></TR><TR><TH align=left width="22%">Noradrenaline (NA)

(sometimes called "norepinephrine" or NE)

</TH><TH align=left width="38%">In the body, it controls the heart and blood pressure.

In the brain, it controls sleep, wakefulness, arousal, mood, emotion and drive

</TH><TH align=left width="39%">Too much noradrenaline and you may feel anxious, jittery etc.

Too little and you may feel depressed, sedated, dizzy, have low blood pressure etc.

</TH></TR><TR><TH align=left width="22%">Acetylcholine (ACh)

</TH><TH align=left width="38%">In the body, acetyl choline passes the messages which make muscles contract.

In the brain, it controls arousal, the ability to use memory, learning tasks etc.

</TH><TH align=left width="39%">Too much in your body and your muscles tighten up.

Too little can produce dry mouth, blurred vision and constipation, as well as becoming confused, drowsy, slow at learning etc.

</TH></TR><TR><TH align=left width="22%">Glutamate

</TH><TH align=left width="38%">Acts as an "accelerator" in the brain

</TH><TH align=left width="39%">Too much and you become anxious, excited and some parts of your brain may become overactive.

Too little and you may become drowsy or sedated

</TH></TR><TR><TH align=left width="22%">GABA

</TH><TH align=left width="38%">Acts as a "brake" in the brain

</TH><TH align=left width="39%">Too much and you become drowsy or sedated.

Too little and you may become anxious and excited

</TH></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
In many mental health problems, it is known that some of these transmitters get out of balance e.g. you have too much or too little of a particular transmitter.

... the levels are:1.2.3. ...
... or sheltering under some illusion of low dimensionality to communication? ...

SB.

... or sheltering under some illusion of low dimensionality to communication? ...

SB.
A-male?
B-female?
C-badger?
D-A and C?
E-All of the above?

:D

"...... <table bgcolor="#ffff99" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="98%"> <tbody><tr><th align="left" width="22%">Dopamine




- there are three main groups (or pathways) of dopamine neurones in the brain

</th><th align="left" width="38%">In the brain, one group controls muscle tension and another controls e.g. emotions, perceptions, sorting out what is real/important/imaginary etc.

</th><th align="left" width="39%">Not enough dopamine in the first group and your muscles tighten up (e.g. as in Parkinson's Disease).

Too much dopamine in the second group gives you an overactive brain i.e. too much "perception e.g. you may see, hear or imagine things that are not real
</th></tr></tbody> </table>


This is so interesting. I totally have the perception thing, especially when it comes to being social.

I noticed that when I am on Ritalin, I am way better at being social. I dont struggle with what to say as much, I dont worry about things so much, and I just notice the "uncomfortable pauses/looks/reactions" are less discomforting to me.

I submitted that because I didn't want to lose it.
And I agree with jogeshwar's definitions. And since the gneral tone of the thread has been defensive, I can understand how jogeshwar may not be amused.

Anyway, these mental health issues are a challenge. There are a lot of types and symptoms and causes and unknowns.
Autistic characteristics can range from mild preoccupation to severe disconnection.
A person can be unreasonable or have full oppositional defiant, I'm too tired to think what the severe thing is - social something. Like those in prison. Phooey.

If it is genetic, are we responsible? If trauma pushes us over the edge so an imbalance occurs? When we are born with it?
Chemicals will manage the imbalances - if we're lucky to find the right combinations of drugs.
Chemicals will NOT manage the damage that people have suffered socially or have really bad habits or just never knew better. This is where cognitive behavioral therapies step in. And stress management and yoga and mediation and running and boxing and all the other stuff helps us cope and to keep the balance.
The US is not really into 'enlightenment' yet - too materialistic.

Methamphetamine users have specific brain action in specific areas. After a year or so of not using, the brain action resumes it's previous action. Similar to lung damage and smoking or alchoholic livers.
Some of these drugs cause side affects, etc.
This is complicated business and one that 'normal' people don't really consider. These normal people used to just throw 'us' into insane asylums or sanitoriums. Lobotomies.
Ignorance is being replaced by research and observation.

Does an ADD parent recognize ADD symptoms in her child? assuredly.
Does a non-ADD parent recognize ADD in their child? They know something is different.


I think we can learn to balance these transmitter.

By which? When XXX=

A-male?
B-female?
C-badger?
D-A and C?
E-All of the above?

Silly hamster! Get your squirmy self back here...

(4) cf

Yes, Veighen. Everyone here can relate to bits and pieces of this. We sure have enough pattern matchers!!!
I am outta here...

In cultures that put immense focus on sucess you see a higher rate of AD(H)D. To be more specific the US and japan.

Im starting to belive that a percentage of the inattentives are being treated for the wrong problem with the right meds but there are possibly better long term solutions. To be more specific i think a small percentage of the inattentives have the val/val variant of the COMT gene which causes dopamine to be cleared out of the brain to quickly thus causing deficency.

I base this on

http://www.nature.com/mp<wbr>/journal/v10/n6/abs/4001615a<wbr>.html (http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v10/n6/abs/4001615a.html)
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr<wbr>/may2003/nimh-07.htm (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/may2003/nimh-07.htm)

We just dont have a word for this condition yet but im sure we will.

I would like to respond with some of my thoughts.

And I'd like to use hepatitis and diabetes to illustrate a few points I'd like to make about ADD, ADHD, etc.

From Men's Health Magazine - so this is mainstream knowledge.

It took 30 years for technology to be developed that would identify these different types.
Hepatitis can be highly contageous or not at all.
It can be debilitating and ultimately fatal.
A liver transplant is an expensive remedy.
And 250 million people worldwide are affected by hepatitis C.
400 million are chronic carriers of Hep B.

Diabetes follows a similar history, but my point differs here.
Genes and factors may influence the risk of developing this disease.
Genetic defects in insulin action, pancreas, endocrine system, chemical-induced, etc.

So back to us. A current theory is that too much dopamine may cause schizophrenia and antipsychotic drugs prevent dopamine from binding to dopamine receptors {decrease brain dopamine levels.}
Dopamine producing neurons come into play with desire or pleasure. When these neurons are destroyed, trembling occurs {Parkinson's disease.} Perhaps some of us are born with impaired neurons or not enough of them.

Very well presented kvrrd.

"In many mental health problems, it is known that some of these transmitters get out of balance e.g. you have too much or too little of a particular transmitter."

The neurotransmitters and hormonnes are influenced by our thoughts and emotions and yes, intangible thoughts and emotions produce tangible materials in us.
regards

Here is one hammer provoded by kvrrd which drives all nails:

."I think we can learn to balance these transmitter".

now to focus on it here is the notional formula:
Health power/longevity=f(RxHT/UHT)

Where
R=Resilience,
HT=Healthy Thoughts and
UHT=Unhealthy Thoughts.

Thus "Heal thyself" is the biblical dictum.
regards

Very well presented kvrrd.

"In many mental health problems, it is known that some of these transmitters get out of balance e.g. you have too much or too little of a particular transmitter."

The neurotransmitters and hormonnes are influenced by our thoughts and emotions and yes, int