One thing I have a hard time with is keeping friends.

I don't get into a fight or anything but I just loose touch with them. I say 'I'll call you later', with the intention of doing so, and never do.
I can go for even a couple of years before I see them again.

Is this because I have a wife and kid and it is a part of growing up?

Is this a by-product of my ADHD?

How do you guys and gals do?

I'm exactly the same way and I don't have a spouse and kids. I'm just that way, I suppose.

I'm a bit of a loner. People tend to wear me out. I'll hang out with them a bit, then I need a break. I've tried to do better with this but I'm not always successful.

When people seem to crowd in on me, which may really be my sensitivity, I will completely shut them out for a moment. It's just too much.

But sometimes I neglect maintaining friendships because it seems like so much work! :o

Also, I'm not really good at keeping friends because it seems that after a time, they may come to know that I'm prone to depression. Not everyone can handle that. It's not that I just cry on them or anything. It's just that sometimes I'm not as excited about getting out and going places as they are and they don't understand this. I tend to hibernate for spells and this just baffles many people. Oh well. The life of an ADD'er.

Do you think you would get along better with someone in the same condition as you or do you think it would be worse?

I used to be really great about keeping in touch with people. I was the one who kept others in my "group" in touch with each other.

Over the past year or so I have been awful when it comes to keeping in touch. I guess that's just one more thing I need to put on my "to do list"

There's actually some interesting information on this...(and no, we're not alone in this)

ADHD Children May Have Fewer Friends as Teenagers, Studies Show (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/news/press/mar02/ADHD.html)
Making Friends (http://www.adhdinfo.com/info/parents/caring/par_making_friends.jsp?checked=y)
Why Johnny Can’t Read Social Cues (http://www.additudemag.com/ourkids.asp?DEPT_NO=301&SUB_NO=12) * By Bob Seay

I dont know if this is just my husband or a thing a lot of adders do,but all of his friends seem to be add, (maybe I look for it in people) , but he is most comfortable when surrounded by other adders, guess that way he doesnt have to try so hard to be something he's not, and also If he doesnt get in touch with them regularly,its no biggy,they just kinda pick up where they left off, weeks,months,sometimes years later.

I think sometime it's easier to be around other ADDers because we seem to understand each other better.

I have lots of friends through out the world..but trying to keep in touch with them wears me out. I have to keep a list of friends and then I write on that the date I last contacted them. I just wish long distant phone calls were'nt so expensive..it would make keeping in touch so much more simple. I also tend to surround myself with other adders, it just makes it easier to be myself.

Wow, Overload, that sounds just like me. I don't think I have depression, though, but I am really on and off, too. Sometimes I can be funny and fun, and other times I am just an observer. I don't think people know how to deal with it because they think there is something wrong...it's not that, it's just that I'm in my own world and my thoughts are more internal than external.

Hmmm. this is a tough one...sometimes I think I don't keep in touch with people because of all the time and effort it takes to do so...I mean sometimes just picking up that phone -- I mean that phone can feel like it weighs 400 pounds sometimes....it's easier to say to myself awforget it...don't bother...and before I know it...years have gone by and I haven't been in touch with so and so....or I'll get someone's e-mail address but forget to actually copy it into my e-mail list or lose it before I get the chance (my disorganization again or spaciness)....other times, it feels like too much of an obligation.....and other times, I make friends that I like so much -- that I do keep in touch with them....and I keep in touch with them because I want to...perhaps that's the way it's supposed to work...at least for me...

I came to Calif. to go to school a year and half ago...from Florida...and I've kept in touch with a small handful of friends...and it's been wonderful...and on the other hand several friends have passed by the wayside...it's sad but I guess that's okay too....and a few I've downright lost...for various reasons...and well....those were meant to happen too....Funny how life works out sometimes....

Obligation. That's a word that definitely puts anxietly into my gut. I just noticed it when I read your post, Joan. Maybe obligations are just too overwhelming to us because we have such a hard time following through with things...having people in our lives gives us people to answer to...people who will see and maybe even bear the brunt of our disorganization. Thoughts to ponder.

Oh my God Misclee you have my number....:) "people to answer to"....and "following through with things"...and "bearing the brunt of our disorganization". TRUE TRUE TRUE TRUE and more TRUE...thanks.....

Wow...reading your posts I feel both guilty and relieved for all the friendships I've lost over the years...lol

Thanks Joan. I never really realized it until I said it!

Well put Andrew and Misclee......:) thank you...

I am going in two directions on this question. One, because I know ADDers have trouble with social cues, and I think that has applied to me. I can only describe myself as an introvert and an extrovert at the same time, and some people find that very hard to understand. Socially I have perceived myself to be clumsey while others percieve me to be quite charming and good at social things. Those same people have no idea how much shreiking is going on under my social costume, screams of dispair at being uncertain of the dynamics around me and where I fit in.

I've found I am best at one to one relationships, and that groups add problems for me, because there is a lot of dynamics to track. At one on one, I do well, or a small group, such as 2 couples. As it gets larger, the social tracking gets nerve racking.

However much this may be attributable to ADD, I am going in two directions, as I said earlier, on this subject. The reason I say this is that I participate in a group that meets weekly, and train and practice in a therapy called psychodrama - http://www.asgpp.org/
Through 2 years of psychodrama, I have slowly peeled back the layers of anger and emotion, locked up in there somewhere, as if it were down in a locked box, in a tunnel, in the bottom of a mine shaft that only people unafraid of hell would travel, and even when you arrive down there, I still search in the agony of the pitch black for a key. Get the picture?

So it has been through multiple experiences and discoveries and "uh ha!" that I have noticed an amazing partial remission in symptoms of ADD after each discovery. I have made connections between this deep dark angry firey pit, located somewhere in hell, and the way I very unconsciously do things that make my friendships drift away or even push them away. As I resolve each issue deeper, I become calmer and more unafraid of myself, and therefore more unafraid of making those friendships lasting, and or making new ones as well. However, this is not a conscious thing, it is more of a wonderful observed event that seems to take much time to unfold, each peice taking not only deeper into the pit, but also emerging me closer to all the people I know.

Its a paradox indeed, and I have to be cautious about how much I put in terms of being an ADD factor, and being a factor that I can deal with if I have the right people to guide me and the persistence and belief to go that deep. There is much more down there than I ever imagined, another world in fact, in many ways, and it is that other world that often controls what I do unconsciously in this world, and then I can easily blame that on ADD. But is that other world a factor of ADD, or does every human have a deep dark unconscious world underneath, one that they don't comprehend or even have awareness of? It seems other people in my group do not have ADD, yet they all have the pit, the one that they are afraid of, and the same one, that heals them when they walk through the fire to the answers.

So that is the dilemma, ADD, or the unconscious suppression of many experiences. This might be more expressed in people with ADD, for all I know, or it might be that people with ADD are more fascinated with following the path.

I have jibberished long enough. Comments and sharing welcome! Thanks

Wow, as another outage of forums comes to an end (I hope I am not on everyone's ignore list again on several threads...lol....as had happened as a result of the last forums outage), I log on and find a friendship thread going on?? COOL...!!!

Well speaking of friendships, I have a new one...and actually "met" him here at forums...so needless so say he's an ADD friend...and we've spoken on the phone many times...and he's from Boston...of all places...my home town...where I have't actually lived in many years....because I can't stand the cold and snow there......makes me depressed and perhaps worsens my ADD symptoms???......but these things don't worsen his......go figure.....ANYWAY....seeing as it's mothers day weekend....he's coming out west today actually to visit his grandmother and aunt in Spokane Washington....and visiting ME too here in California this weekend....don't worry.....we're meeting in a public place at which time I will check his I.D and and everything else as well...lol.....although he does seem to be on the up and up....everything he says checks out in that we seem to know a few of the same people from Boston!!...but just to be sure we are meeting for brunch in a beautiful but public place......maybe catch a movie.....dying to see that Michael Douglas movie......and am bringing my car......so all feels safe....but he's been a JOY to talk with....an absolute delight.....a great listener....he's a Harvard graduate....how he did that with the ADD is beyond me......but we ADDers are smart.....yes we are......incidentally he lost his "membership" here to forums in outage....lol.....don't see it here....he just joined a few weeks ago....anyway I'm very excited in that I've never had an actual in person ADD friend before.....oh my God I may see MYSELF in him...oh no!!!.....I will let you all know how it goes...A new friend, cool..... And SEXY voice...:)

Retention of friends seems to relate to several factors, assuming a friendship exists:
1) staying in touch
2) reciprocation of kindnesses. This reciprocation can be as simple as exchanging smiles, or as basic as exchanging turns to pay for dinner, or as complex as taking turns washing the dishes
3) conscious or unconscious agreement upon healthy and/or designated boundaries and/or the definition of the friendship. The definition or shape of the friendship is somewhat liquid, may change over time, even from day to day, but changes in the boundaries must be mutually agreed to; ie, a friendship changing to a romance must be agreed to, not assumed by only one party, or the friendship dissolves.
4) Sharing. A sense of I want you to have what I have. We learn this in kindergarten and younger and it can be one of the first signs of friendship as well
5) Playfulness and fun of some kind. Hardly any relationship can be called a "friendship" without having some forme of fun involved. Why be friends if there is no fun involved? There are relationships where there is a purpose but the prescence of and permission for fun can be used as a gauge of whether there is any aspect of mutual friendship in addition. Even in a serious mentorship it does not hurt to smile and crack a joke and let the other know you consider them a friend. If the other does not respond kindly to this, then it can be assumed the relationship is strictly professional and now a boundary exists that can only be broken by mutual agreement.
6) Truth. Being truthful with friends is a necessity. As honesty drops, the degree to which a friendship exists is directly related, even if the other does not know any dishonesty exists. However, boundaires still apply; thus if an area of discussion is outside the boundaries of a relationship, then it is inviting dishonesty into the relationship.
7) Respect. Respect these rules. By disregarding agreed upon or others' boundaries, dishonesty may enter on the part of the other, and the relationship either dissolves or can be damaged. This is an easy way to sabotage a relationship, by disregarding rules or boundaries, forcing the other to counter that action with an equally unhealthy response, dishonesty, resulting in an overall less valuable friendship. For those who are particularly needy, or who do not agree to the boundaries of a relationship, it should be noted that penetration of and ignoring those boundaries of others typically results in negative consequences on the relationship. In a few cases, a particularly aware or savvy person who values the friendship might alert you to the indescretion, but repeated infraction of the same boundary issues or multiple boundary issues, will generally result in pushing away that friendship.
8) Apology. If any of the aformentioned six areas are broken, as we are all human, then the obvious thing to do is apologize. Well intentioned apologies heal all, in many cases. It's at least worth a try. Even when a friendship is not valued, it may be the best thing to do, simply to apologize
9) Correct the infracting negative behavior so it does not repeat itself. This will rebuild trust and show respect if it is shown for a sustained period of time that the same indescretion is not repeated.
10) Forgive. Friendships do heal. However, they can not heal without forgiveness.
11) Be aware. Be aware of unhealthy friendships, whereby the aforementioned rules are not followed by one or both persons. These can only cause confusion, frustration, arguments and pain. If the relationship is valued, try to be kind in demonstrating the ways the friendship could be healed. If it is not valued, or healing does not seem to be an option, then move out of that relationship and make room for a healthy one in your life.
12) Don't repeat. We tend to repeat the same errors in our relationships over and over. This gives us the same results, losing our friends. If we make friends with people who cannot tell the difference and allow us to infringe on their boundaries, the problem is those same people generally take the liberty of infringing on our boundaries as well and ignoring the rules of friendship as well. Thus, if we don't stop repeating these behaviors, we can surround our selves with people who don't follow friendship rules and disrespect our boundaries, leaving us wondering quite correctly if we really do have friends after all.

Improving friendships really comes down to a few simple rules, some more challenging for us than others, but never the less, 12 simple rules: stay in touch, reciprocate, define the friendship, share, have fun, be truthful, respect, apologize, self-correct, forgive, be aware, don't repeat.

Now if I can make a resolution to follow all of these 12 simple rules, I think I will have a handful of valuable friends by next year this time!!

I'm human too!

Jon

Jon -- wow....thanks for the great insight and awarenesses....:)......especially about friends (needy ones especially) who might ignore or violate my boudaries....have to really watch that..........and yes FUN is soooo important....you have to laugh together or you have no friendship....did you see my post? I have a new friend and I hope to do a lof of that once we meet -- I can't remember the last time I had a good laugh......

and honesty....yup...telling the truth??? If you don't really like or appreciate what the other person has said to you or if the friend has offended you....otherwise resentments build up...yes so true....you said lots of good stuff.....thanks.....:)

Written for my own purpose, to consider what my thoughts are on simplifying the rules of friendships. After writing, I thought I'd share it. Hope others find it interesting and apologize if at all mundane or pedantic. Each time I read it I find revisions I would like to make. It will probably continue to be revised and revised, but I believe the basics will remain true. This has been a great exercise for myself, to look at just how simple the rules can be, and see how I define friendship rules today. I imagine I should date this, and then rewrite it in the future and date it, and continue rewriting it and dating it, and see the progression of the ways in which my definitions of friendship rules change over time. I might in an attached seperate document make an assessment of my friendships at the same time period, and see how my rules of friendship change, as compared to how my actual friendships change in both quantity and quality, and date them as well. I think this will be an excellent diary exercise for my personal diary, not my published diary. I publish my diaries at an online diary site for people with ADD, ADDDiaries ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ADDDiaries/ ). Over time, I imagine a great deal of information could be gained in this way. I recommend anyone try it. I'm glad I did this today.

Jon

Retention of friends seems to relate to several factors, assuming a friendship exists:

1) stay in touch. The simplest but sometimes the most ignored of all the friendship rules.

2) Reciprocate. reciprocation of kindnesses. This reciprocation can be as simple as exchanging smiles, or as basic as exchanging turns to pay for dinner, or as complex as taking turns washing the dishes

3) Define the friendship. conscious or unconscious agreement upon healthy and/or designated boundaries and/or the definition of the friendship. The definition or shape of the friendship is somewhat liquid, may change over time, even from day to day, but changes in the boundaries must be mutually agreed to; ie, a friendship changing to a romance must be agreed to, not assumed by only one party, or the friendship dissolves.

4) Sharing. A sense of I want you to have what I have. We learn this in kindergarten and younger and it can be one of the first signs of friendship as well

5) Play! Playfulness and fun of some kind. Hardly any relationship can be called a "friendship" without having some form of fun involved. Why be friends if there is no fun involved? There are relationships where there is a purpose but the prescence of and permission for fun can be used as a gauge of whether there is any aspect of mutual friendship in addition. Even in a serious mentorship it does not hurt to smile and crack a joke and let the other know you consider them a friend. If the other does not respond kindly to this, then it can be assumed the relationship is strictly professional and now a boundary exists that can only be broken by mutual agreement.

6) Truth. Being truthful with friends is a necessity. As honesty drops, the degree to which a friendship exists is directly related, even if the other does not know any dishonesty exists. However, boundaires still apply; thus if an area of discussion is outside the boundaries of a relationship, then it is inviting dishonesty into the relationship.

7) Respect. Respect these rules. By disregarding agreed upon or others' boundaries, dishonesty may enter on the part of the other, and the relationship either dissolves or can be damaged. This is an easy way to sabotage a relationship, by disregarding rules or boundaries, forcing the other to counter that action with an equally unhealthy response, dishonesty, resulting in an overall less valuable friendship. For those who are particularly needy, or who do not agree to the boundaries of a relationship, it should be noted that penetration of and ignoring those boundaries of others typically results in negative consequences on the relationship. In a few cases, a particularly aware or savvy person who values the friendship might alert you to the indescretion, but repeated infraction of the same boundary issues or multiple boundary issues, will generally result in pushing away that friendship.

8) Apology. If any of the aformentioned six areas are broken, remember we are all human, and the obvious thing to do is apologize. Well intentioned apologies heal all, in many cases. It's at least worth a try. Even when a friendship is not valued, it may be the best thing to do, simply to apologize.

9) Correct the infracting negative behavior so it does not repeat itself. This will rebuild trust and show respect if it is shown for a sustained period of time that the same indescretion is not repeated.

10) Forgive. Friendships do heal. However, they can not heal without forgiveness.

11) Be aware. Be aware of unhealthy friendships, whereby the aforementioned rules are not followed by one or both persons. These can only cause confusion, frustration, arguments and pain. If the relationship is valued, try to be kind in demonstrating the ways the friendship could be healed. If healing does not seem to be an option, then consider moving out of that relationship and making room for a healthier one in your life. Another possibility is looking for improvement rather than perfection if the relationship is otherwise healthy and if the infraction is more annoying than damaging. Use caution in applying this rule, as rarely is any relationship perfect. Decide if infractions are annoyances or damaging and be honest with your friend.

12) Don't repeat. We tend to repeat the same errors in our relationships over and over. This gives us the same results, losing our friends or having poor substitutes. If we make friends with people who cannot tell the difference and allow us to infringe on their boundaries, the problem is those same people generally take the liberty of infringing on our boundaries and ignore the rules of friendship as well. Thus, if we don't stop repeating these behaviors, we can surround our selves with people who don't respect friendship rules and disrespect our boundaries, leaving us wondering quite correctly if we really do have friends after all.

Improving friendships really comes down to a few simple rules, some more challenging for us than others, but never the less, 12 simple rules: stay in touch, reciprocate, define the friendship, share, have fun, be truthful, respect, apologize, self-correct, forgive, be aware, don't repeat.

Now if I can make a resolution to follow all of these 12 simple rules, I think I will have a handful of most valuable friends by next year this time!! Truth is I don't have to wait a year for results; I can do this now, today, this moment.

I'm human too! So first on my list is to wonder who do I need to contact, who do I need to apologize to, who do I need to reciprocate kindnesses... I think I'll start with 1) staying in touch.... and work my way from there... this should keep my social life busy and surprise a few old pals.

Jon

Thanks, Jon. Awesome!

I can't read Healthwiz posts they are so long they scare me.

Barbette: Hang in there...you'll get used to them....:) and they're not as scarey as they look....

I apologize Barbette. I am long winded. I try to cut them down to the minimum, but I use a lot of words. I think writing is a hobby of mine. I hope you get a chance to read some of them. This one basically summarizes 12 rules I came up with for friendship.

Take care

Jon

This exercise in 12 rules actually helped me identify areas to work on in my own marriage. I talked with my wife, who read these today, and she agreed we could both work on adding more fun into our lives. It can be more laughter and joking, or more activities just for fun. We agree fun and play is a necessary element in friendship and we agree that friendship is a necessary element in our marriage. Sometimes we can get so busy with work and children and frustrations of life, that we forget, the all important thing to do with loved ones, is to have some fun. So writing the rules did help!

Today my friend Ken called me and said he was just staying in touch, and I thought about the rules, "Stay in Touch" being rule #1, and although he called at a bad time, I THANKED him when he said he was just staying in touch. Then we proceeded to have a long meaningful talk.

Jon

Thank you Andrew!
Thank you Joan!

Gee I thought this thread had been lost, but I found it....

Personal experience this week what I learned about friendships...is that there are some really cool people in this world...(I met one)...who will be there for you...you just have to open up your heart and let them be there for you...I think that's a lot of it...opening up your heart and letting someone be there for you and being willing to trust...and being willing to be vulnerable...realizing you might get hurt but taking a chance anyway...none of this is easy but it's worth it because when it works out, it's wonderful and of course worth the risk....intimacy can be great once the intitial discomfort, nervousness, barriers, etc. are worked through....I learned that feeling understood, loved and being heard by someone are wonderful gifts.....I also learned that being there for someone in return is equally wonderful....I learned this week that being treated nicely can be a lot of fun and we all deserve it.....being playful is also a lot of fun....acting like a kid is a lot of fun...and ADD people in particular we are a special and sensitive brand of people...my friend went through a lot of hard times to get where he is but he never gave up and he is a successful career person in spite of his ADD...amazing story..very inspirational to learn about it....:)

great points joan:) friends; just got backf rom nice trip and well landed safely at logan; saw family and friends and new friend; and well, some friends are just easier to hit it off with than others i guess; some are just naturally loveable, right? joan? ez to love. but i guess as my grandmother says today to have a friend you have to be af riend and the friend iw as with this week WAS a great fr eind in so many ways; kind, loving, gentle, caring, beuatiful spirit,thoughtful, gracious, socially cool!, unselfish, fun and i mean a blast to be with, playful, easy to be with, funny, giving,intelligent, laid back:) the list goes on and on and on. and now that its three hours later and im jetlagged and beat, i think i'll callit a nite. somebody needs to do a thread on adders and travel. we find all kinds of different ways were different. are we different in terms of travel? do we like aisle seats instead of window seats because were add? carryon? and so not have to gather at baggage claim or check it in so not have to drag it on plane. anyway, nice freindship thread.

Dan

Wow! That list does make a lot of sense, though I don't think I would have thought of those things on my own. I don't have much of a social life because I have a really hard time starting new friendships and staying in touch with the old ones. I'm never sure exactly where I stand with someone or what the appropriate "next step" is.

I think this will help me, because I have a much easier time doing just about anything when I'm "following the rules". Having firm outlines of how to do something almost always makes me braver. Thanks!

Djiril: Personal note to YOU: thanks for finding this thread and bringing it back out....I had no idea it was even around....it was nice to read the last few posts again and of course yours.....I don't have much of a social life right now either actually which is why I spend so much time HERE.....I understand what you mean about not understanding the unspoken "rules".....and where we stand with people.....someone should have written a book about that....BUT I think with regard to starting new friendships....I do believe what Dan says is true: to have a friend you have to be a friend...which involves risk taking...i.e. asking someone out for coffee even if you don't know if they will say yes or no....they might say yes..!

I don't have much of social life either. One of my problems is that I relate so much better to men than women. Since I"m married it's hard to go out make male friends.

Well now that's an interesting thing Tara...what does your husband think about that? The reason I ask is this: I had a little chat with my brother last week....he got married very late in life...at 40...and is still married of course....with a little baby girl now....I asked him if he still connected with any of his "old" girlfriends or e-mailed them or anything....I wanted his opinion of whether it's appropriate for a married man to be e-mailing single women....even if it does appear innocent....because as a chronically single woman, I just don't know...and I consider myself rather naive about such things...so my brother just said, no he's not in touch with old girlfriends nor any of his old platonic female friends either and he hardly e-mails them anymore either....I took that all to mean he sees contact with other females as basically inappropropriate now that he's married.....(unless of course he's in the company of that female in the presence of his his wife such as at a party......Curious what do you think about this Tara?

My mom has lots of male friends and it doesn't seem to be a problem. It may have something to do with the way she interacts with them. Nothing about it ever seems very sexual.

I have male friends that I knew before I met my husband and he's ok with that. Actually we never have really talked about me making new males friends.

Personally I don't think it's innapropriate to have friends of the opposite sex when a person is married.

I so totally do this... drift away from friends because I just don't keep in touch. It's not that I don't care or that I don't wanna be around them. It's just that I procrastinate and put it off, until they get frustrated with me and are no longer my friend.

Lost a lot of friends that way :(

-- Tom

djiril -- glad this helps to see these written out. It helps me to write these concepts down. Ever since I wrote these, my own speed of indentifying friendships has been quicker. I used to sometimes feel like "oh so and so is calling at the wrong time." I appreciate it even more now when I do get a phone call from a friend, because now I realize the call represents one of these rules in action. Its not JUST a call from so and so, its a "KEEP IN TOUCH".

Spontaneously,

Jonathan

I have always related better to females. I have a huge resovoir of female energy and sometimes feel like an outcast in the world of males. I don't like sports for instance, but I'm a heterosexual.....go figure!

In my marriage, and as a parent, I am a strong source of female energy. Oddly, I have strong male energy as well, in other areas like being able to handle rough conditions in the wilderness. However, my artistic energy and interest in how emotions work is much more conducive to establishing female friends. Females tend to be more into that in conversation.

Now I am balancing this better, and have a few male friends who actually are very in touch with their interests in emotions, growth, etc. I find they are mostly in the fields of psychology, teaching, art and theatre. I also find that many men become more interested in and open about this side of themselves as they get older.

One needs both in my opinion. A life with one female partner and no female friends would be a shame, and a life with no male friends would be just as out of balance. When people get married, I think the best idea is not to exclude the attracted sex, but to include the attracted sex and learn to deal with the sexual attraction without acting on it.

We all have in us both male and female energies, so it makes sense to have both friends, male and female, in order to continue developing and growing. While for a while one person of the attracting sex may seem to fullfill all emotional, psychological and growth needs, it is a matter of time before neither person can fullfill that role indefinitly. The resorvoir eventaully gets dry and does not get refilled in isolation. So I think it's better for couple's to start off without creating rules of isolation from the attracting sex, as that will be the death nell to the relationship and the personal growth, just as much as the fear of an extramarital affair.

Expanding our role as friends is especially important in the USA. My impression is that in comparison to Europeans, Americans have fewer friends in general, and less emphasis on the value of friendship than in Europe. My counterparts in Europe seem to have many more friends, more cultural inclusion of friends in adult life, and I have noticed that many European men can express their female energy without looking any less male in their societies. It is just my impression.

Spontaneously,

Jonathan

Originally posted by joanrdtobe
I had a little chat with my brother last week.....I asked him if he still connected with any of his "old" girlfriends or e-mailed them or anything....I wanted his opinion of whether it's appropriate for a married man to be e-mailing single women....even if it does appear innocent.....so my brother just said, no he's not in touch with old girlfriends nor any of his old platonic female friends either and he hardly e-mails them anymore either....I took that all to mean he sees contact with other females as basically inappropropriate now that he's married.....(unless of course he's in the company of that female in the presence of his his wife such as at a party......

agree totally. heres why. theres a nonverbal insecurity that goes on with spouses. it went on with my exwife.sure she said she didnt mind if i had so called female friends buttruth be told it ate her up inside.and marriages are wrought enough with trouble,pain, etc.so why make them worse with outside extra stuff such as "friendships" with the opposite sex?i think its simply asking for trouble.i think one can get plenty of stimulation from opposite sex from family, i.e. cousins, brothers, sisters, etc. one way to have an opposite sex friend is to get together with other couples as apparently joan's brother and his wife do (as implied in last line above).now that sounds safe and sane. besides, if you cant say it IN FRONT OF YOUR SPOUSE, i guess it shouldnt be said at all.plus we must look at the source. i get the feeling by the way joan writes her post that her brother is happy with his decision to not dabble wiht other women. and it sure sounds like none of his needs arent getting met.it sounds to me like he feels an HONEST commitment to his wife and baby.SOUNDS SANE TO ME.

The experts say in the first couple years of marriage couples prefer to get together with other couples, for various reasons having to so with the beginning stages of marriage. However, as the marriage progresses, other options do become possible. Marriages are not stagnant, they must develop.

Here is the experts advise on how to handle not only Friends of opposite sex, called FOOS, but also ex's of other sex; to either limit the get togethers with ex's to times which can include your spouse, or to keep the friendship seperate from the marriage and not compare the marital relationship to the friendship. The advice is that this is up to the couple, how to handle FOOS. The advice also mentions that friendships of this kind can be broken if they get to be difficult, because a marriage is not worth breaking up for a friend.

There are more conservative experts out there who think FOOS should only be visited when both partners are available, but the words of one married woman summs the opposite view up:

GIVE ME A BREAK! I have MALE friends, and my husband KNOWS them and likes them. My husband has FEMALE friends and I KNOW them and like them. ohhhhh noooooo.. we are sooo bad.. we even HUG OUR FRIENDS. If your relationship is that insecure that you can't trust your spouse to have any kind of emotional stimulation from another human being, than I truly feel sad for YOUR spouse. Love can be shared by FRIENDS and it doesn't have to be PHYSICAL.

I didn't draw the same conclusions from Joan's example. It sounds to me like his relationship is more insecure than secure, there is not enough information to infer his committments to his wife or baby, one cannot infer if his needs are met or not from the example, his sanity cannot be determined by the FOOS choice a couple makes, and it sounds like he might just be neglecting his old relationships, letting them dry up and die due to the insecurity about having FOOS. To me that sounds more INSANE.

The experts say: marriage specialists believe a free and easy social life shows security in your relationship -- it means you both can develop relationships with others without feeling insecure or jealous. In addition, you sometimes need some outside advice or to hear someone else's funny story. Having numerous friends can broaden and enrich you as individuals, which can only enhance your relationship with each other.

As if the divorce rate is not enough to prove people need more than just a spouse to talk to, just ask any psychologist what is the number one discussion in the office; "can't communicate with spouse" so it stands to reason that people need to have others who they can confide in, beyond the marital relationship. All those people who say they cannot communicate with their spouses, started out with enough love, caring and affection for each other to walk down that wedding isle. People generally don't do that for people unless they can talk to them, feel love, feel in love, yet they still end up in the drs' office with communication problems.

Myself, having been through 20 years of marriage, and a rough ride a couple times in our relationship, I spoke to couples who have been married 40 years and more, and found not one of them were "naturals" at communicating. I have not met one single couple in my life that did not need to do EXTREMELY HARD WORK to keep their relationship going. Thats why friends are necessary. And it isnt going to be a guy who I'm going to want to talk to about my marriage, because most guys don't know how to handle woman problems, they have their own female issues and thats why books are published like men are from mars, women are from venus; a woman clearly can give much more insightful advice about another woman's needs than a guy can.

J

Geez, shoud I cut in here or NOT? It sounds like anonymous lady in previous post is angry and defensive...which raises some red flags. Can't we all have our own opinions without this turning into a war battle? Why couldn't Dan just have his opinion without it being torn apart? He was simply paraphrasing what he thought he heard my brother say to me in our phone conversation..and he was pretty much right about what my brother was conveying...didn't mean he was totally right about every couple in the universe....NOR WRONG....but why did everything turn into a right vs. wrong thing? I mean the post previous to this one sounds like someone committed a felony just for having an opinion. Was the all the screaming necessary? At least Dan's post was civil. Hey we're ALL right...okay????:)

Would you like a reality check? As nobody really knows how it works with my brother and his wife's marriage, not even me, but I will tell you....as I HEAR about it all the time from my mother, my sister, etc...okay...They were married about 4 years ago. (By the way, we, my family that is, have an extremely rare situation. No divorce in my family. My parents have been married 53 years. No affairs. My sister and her husband have been happily married um 13 years. Two kids. No affairs.)

As I said Bob and Nancy my brother and his wife have been married four years and adopted a baby girl 9 months ago. Actually I think one reason he doesn't focus on other people so much is becuase he's so tuned into the marriage, work and the baby, when would he do that? Anyway, one thing they do is spend a lot of time with cousins...they do MUCH with family....in fact once per month, they do a cousin's club get-together. They get together with about 5 other cousins (couples) of ours...who are really cool...who are about their age....and that's how my brother gets to spend time with women...of approximately his age...they have dinner and whatever...and it's really nice....his thought: his 40-year old wife Nancy, as beautiful as she is, will never go to bed with thoughts such as "hmmm I wonder if Bob thinks such and such is prettier than I"....and my brother makes sure of that....HE wants to assure that she feels safe...he sees that as his job...to make sure that she feels protected...he doesn't see her as insecure at all...that's not the issue...it's like prevention for him....she IS secure and he wants to protect that security and not take chances...and that's the deal....and that is why he chooses to keep female friends to cousins/family only....and when I get married if a man feels that way, that would be unbelievable...wanting to protect me that way....I really admire him for feeling that way....it's funny, but I don't think my brother sees it as a sacrifice either. See when we were on the phone that night...he was saying it "matter of factly". He wasn't saying, "Joan I don't see anyone else and poor me". Nope not at all. He was saying it like "Joan I don't contact other women and it's cool". Like he doesn't WANT to? I mean he visits my parents every week and my sister and her family. That was his attitude, like it's cool. As if he has more than enough with what he has....He sends me these AWESOME pictures of Nancy and the baby and you can tell he feels SO blessed with what he has....he is so different now than when he was a bachelor...anyway...I'm jealous in a way. When he got married, it took a whole lot of getting used to for me....

Now the anonymous woman above wants to know how the woman feels, which would be my brother's wife, Nancy? I have no idea...but since she and I do talk about once per month, and she makes no mention of other men except the men in her own family and mine, I get the feeling her own needs are met as well, just fine. She loves my brother to death and I know for a fact my brother treats her like a princess....so I guess she doesn't need anyone else...and no divorce in her family either by the way....I think the facts speak for themselves....

I am in the process of leaving a long time friendship. It isn't easy, but I can't see any other way. The respect is gone. I feel guilty, but I can't see any alternative. To be honest, I think this person is psychologically unstable and a drain on my soul. We've been friends since we were 14. I've changed 100 times over since then, and she hasn't changed at all. I can't relate to her. I have lost empathy for her drama. I feel cold but I can't go on with her anymore. Am I terrible?

Misclee with the pretty name: you are absolutely NOT terrible.in fact you are what they call courageous.i did that recentlywith myex-girlfriend.not for same reasons as you.but situation was similar in that i felt it was REALLY time to move on.ineeded to growand SHE was adrain on my soul just as your friend is a drain on your soul.see ithink when we let people go, although it is very hard, THEN God and the universe can put new people in their place.but aslong as we keep holding on to people in our lives that do not "work for us" then that's all we're left with - people who dont work for us.ill BET youve changed 100x more than she has.and ill BET you cant relate to her as you once could.i believe that.i also believe you aint got nothing left to talk about withher. right? so conversation is strained, right?and drama?ohmy, that must takeup awholelot of YOUR energy i bet, huh?a good friend i know says,"wecan't take careof ourselves and other people's feelings at the same time. so true." your doing the right thing misclee darling.

listen you want joan to stay in calif? have lunch with you in sanfran or something?problem is I want her to move back to boston from where she was born and raised! i think you and i gotourselves a dilemma misclee!:) see becuase she dont want either. she wants florida.:(

anyways misclee, take care of misclee, ya hear? because misclee is all misclee has!:)

Yes, Misclee, actually Dan and I just had a conversation on your behalf. And we both think you're thinking is right on track. We BOTH think you've grown mountains in the last few months. I mean graduating and getting on meds and getting real honest with your "stuff" here on forums. I mean of course your relationships will change too. And so if this friend of yours HASN'T changed, well, it's NOT terrible for you to want to move on. Make sense? Plus if your empathy is lacking, you can't really be a great friend to her, can you? And do you really NEED a friend who is psychologically unstable? Because if that is the case, all that really does is put you in the caretaking role. And if that is the case, is that really a give and take frienship then? Probably not.
Anyway, yes, we think you're doing the right thing, Misclee. And you're cool. You deserve really cool, compatible friends who are psychologically well. Or at least working on it. And not filled with drama.

It is hard when you have a friend who is not well. I have been there before. The person brings you right down with him or her.

Thank you so much. This has been really hard for me. Her mother is even sending me horrible e-mails telling me how awful I am (the apple doesn't fall far from the tree). I really needed to hear this. I will really miss her, but you are right....we really share nothing anymore except the past. It is very sad.

Dan, I'll armwrestle you for her?

;)

This feels like a really sad divorce! I keep remembering all the good stuff. We've been through so much together. I just can't be her savior anymore. Thanks for listening.

Misclee!

You are on the right track I think!

If its been a draining relationship, I would wonder if you are doing yourself a disservice by trying to remain friends, and wonder if you think you are doing her a favor by remaining friends?

Don;t you wonder, if you are so awful, why did she ever want to be your friend in the first place? It seems that you are just deciding whats good for you, and in this case the friendship does not fit with where you are in your life today. If you don't have a right to choose what fits for your life, then who does? Is that awful?

As for mean spirited letters from others claiming to defend someone from your awefulness, I think its a sign of co-dependency issues. If you can see how immature that is on both the part of the mother and the daugher, you should be able to avoid the guilt those letters are trying to instigate. I believe it is your right to choose your friends and establish your boundaries, without guilt. I've been through similar ordeals and its a guilt trip at first but then its an incredible relief to be relieved of the co-dependent relationships.

Take care, good luck and remember its your right to choose.

Jon

Misclee: You are going to "arm wrestle" with Dan? Do you know what? You might win!! I mean he's pretty strong, BUT if your strong too, and I suspect you are, you may win....(sorry Dan...but you know I'm right on this one....!!) In any event, if you keep saying things like wanting to arm wrestle for me, it's going to go RIGHT TO MY HEAD....!!! People RARELY fight for my attentions!!:)

Originally posted by misclee
We've been through so much together. I just can't be her savior anymore.


Misclee -- If this is the case by the way, and you've been her "savior", then that means she's been perpetually in the "victim" role, just by having known you and relating to you. That's probably not too healthy for either one of you. Perhaps then, this is a good thing....you get to leave the savior role, and she gets to leave the victim role....and you both get better....and land in healthier places.....:)

Yes, you are all right, thanks.

Yes, Joan, let it go to your head!

Misclee: joans right. cant arm wrestle for squat.imean i do work out but my biceps just aintwhat they used to be!would you care for a game of fooz ball or gin rummyor 5-card stud?anyway, hear your graduating. congrats, thats terriiiiifiiiiiiic.joan will send one of those "e" cards from both of us, k? listen, its ok to think about the goodtimes and your friend. its called greiving, rite? greiving is a good thing.ok take care mislee darlin'.:)

That sounds like the story of my life. From the time I was little, I always had problems making friends, some of which I would not be able to keep. However, things are looking up, and I have a few good friends :). :( Writing on this topic is starting to depress me:(

I think "A FEW GOOD FRIENDS" is all that anyone can hope for really and more than many achieve in a lifetime. When I felt like I had the least number of friends, it was when I least knew who I was. At those times, I often felt like no one knew me, that I was not really close to anyone. Yet all my friends felt they knew me well and were close to me. Now in retrospect I can see where the loniliness was, it was with me, for I did not know who I was and that was loniliness beyond what any other soul could cure.

Jon

Dear Misclee Fans:

She has not posted for awhile...but I heard from her...she is busy taking care of lots of stuff....and will be back here soon....:)

Thanks Joan. It' sp nice to hear people keeping up with each other.

Yes, it's great to know that people have actually become friends through ADD Forums!!!

Yes, I feel very blessed...and Misclee is a real doll:) and we seem to have a lot in common.

Geesh, dcsiszer, you see, I've done it again! :eek: ugh.

You posted on 3/14/03 and I'm just responding on 06/15/03!!! Oh my Gaaaawd! I'm sorry.

No, actually, I failed to bookmark this site. But now it's marked so it won't happen again. I'm mostly a weekend poster though.

Getting back to your long lost 3 month old question, though. :o I think it would be easier to be friends with someone who also had ADD because I think we'd understand each other better. We'd be more patient.

I have a friend with whom I share another personal issue and we are very patient and understanding with each other. There is also invaluable comfort in knowing that the other person already KNOWS your 'secret' and they accept you anyway. (But you must be careful who you disclose to.) I wouldn't feel like I'd have to spend a lot of time and effort trying to cover up or compensate for my ADD. I can just relax and know that when I make a slip, they understand. If I forget to call, they don't take it personally. And they'd have the same comfort in knowing that I can pardon their slips.

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to manage our ADD when we're among ADD friends or wherever. I'm just saying that we spend SOOOO much effort trying hide our ADD traits while at work or around others who don't know about it. We NEED a place where we can just relax and just BE; not be on guard all the time. Let our hair down. I think it keeps us from self-destructing. lol

Now I don't have an ADD friend, but a friend with whom I share a common issue. Dear God, I wish I had an ADD friend because when you vent your ADD frustrations, non-ADDers just think you're 'whining.' *sigh*

You know, when I look back on the friends that I've lost or failed to make because of my ADD and sometimes depression, it really makes me a bit sad. I know some of them didn't understand my not wanting to spend so much time with them.

Perhaps this is part of what makes me less willing to go out and make new friends. As it stands now, I don't really have friends I spend any time with; only on occasion. I guess I feel that I'm not going to want to hang out the way they want to hang out and the friendship will dissolve anyway. So what's the point?

I seem to attract people who are my opposite (really outgoing, always on the go) and this doesn't tend to work out well. They just plain wear. me. out.

I don't know what the answer is, really.

Overload: Is there an ADD support group in your area? Perhaps some potential friends there....OR if there is some specific activity you like to do...perhaps you could make friends based on common interests....OR perhaps you're in a space right now where close friendships is not a priority? I go in and out of wanting to hang out with people a lot vs. wanting to be alone alot.

Many of my friends are ADD/bipolar. The thing is,. you don't have to pretend to be "normal", and the communications barriers are less troublesome. There is also the old addage "misery loves company". Only an ADDer can really understand what it is like.


Glen


I dont know if this is just my husband or a thing a lot of adders do,but all of his friends seem to be add, (maybe I look for it in people) , but he is most comfortable when surrounded by other adders, guess that way he doesnt have to try so hard to be something he's not, and also If he doesnt get in touch with them regularly,its no biggy,they just kinda pick up where they left off, weeks,months,sometimes years later.