Okay, someone tell me if this is because I am ADD, she is ADD, both of us are ADD, or just because I am male and she is female?

I am SICK AND ******* TIRED of being blamed when I failed to read her mind!

(Latest) Example: we went over to a friend's tonight where I played cards with the man of the house. My wife was extremely bored. After three games, I said, "Well we probably have time for a fourth, what do you think, hon?" She said yes, so I played one last game.

As soon as we left she freaked on me! She said, couldn't you see I was bored? When you asked me I was trying to tell you dear God no anything but another card game...

Now she is furious with me!

I think she should have been assertive and said she wanted to go home.

She thinks I should have picked up on her boredom and packed up early.

Both of us are FURIOUS with each other now.

This is just the latest example... she does this all the bloody TIME!
grrrrrrr :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally posted by waywardclam

I am SICK AND ******* TIRED of being blamed when I failed to read her mind!



I would tend to think that it's her ADD. There's this thing called "Theory of Mind" which is where the person can't comprehend that others can't read their mind and they can't understand that people might not be the same as them.

From a female perspective - tell her to communicate properly or put a sock in it.

To my shame I must admit I'm the same. Not sure if it's an ADD thing or a woman thing but my Mum's the same as well, although from what I can tell MOST women aren't quite that extreme.

I still have to regularly remind myself when telling a story or talking about something, that the other person doesn't know what I know, doesn't know what I feel and so on... I also sometimes can't find the words to explain something, but rather than being angry with myself for being unable to talk properly, I get angry with whoever I'm talking to because they don't instantly know what I mean.

I do tend to sulk sometimes when someone doesnt' instantly know I'm upset or have had neough/want to go home, although now that I'm more aware of the fact that not everybody feels/works that way, I do try and say what I feel/want more often (It's not always easy!).


Although I HAVE heard that complaint before unrelated to ADD, simply because men TEND to be less able to read subtle signals, are less likely to notice when a woman is unhappy (i.e. even if she turns her back and doesn't speak a word all night, the bloke happily continues to have fun with his mates and is often totally surprised when she later tells him she's unhappy). That problem is even more prominent with men with AD/HD since ADDers often tend to overlook these signals.

Women are generally better at that kind of thing although obviously ADD does affect that ability in both genders, just not to the same degree. (I tend to misread rather than not notice at all, at least in some cases - other times I do totally fail to realise that someone is upset etc.)

I usually give my hubby a tap on the foot to tell him when I am bored and want to leave. Maybe the two of you should come up with a similar system.

I don't know if it's totally and ADD thing or a male female thing. No you shouldn't be expected to read her mind but maybe she expected that you could have read her body language. There are a lot of people ADD, non-ADD, male, female, etc who don't read body language well either.

I think my husband is pretty good about reading my body language but I never expect him too. I think if I was in that situation depending on who the people were I would have come right out and said I wanted to leave or said I was feeling tired out something like that.

Maybe next time you go out together the two of you could come up with some sort of plan before hand.

Thank you for all the responses... we've hashed this out, not to either of our satisfactions, but better than we were before it happened...

Maybe the key is to agree to communicate more that what you think you should have to - in order for the important messages to get though.

The trouble is she doesn't WANT more communication, she wants me to be able to tell without her having to say anything.

My position is that this is impossible and unfair to me.

But she is a lot more reasonable about this when she isn't upset... when she is upset she tends to revert to expecting me to read her mind...

Okay,

I have difficulty communicating when I get upset too so I can understand that BUT it doesn't make it fair to you.

When she's in a calm & rational state of mind, discuss the possibility of some non-verbal cue's or actual cue cards that she can use when she gets upset so that way she can communicate with you without having to talk.

Originally posted by waywardclam
Okay, someone tell me if this is because I am ADD, she is ADD, both of us are ADD, or just because I am male and she is female?

I am SICK AND ******* TIRED of being blamed when I failed to read her mind!



I won't say why it is.

Mind reading and the expectation of others to mind read are both no no's.

She's wrong. You are right.

So what?

How are you going to take care to conduct yourself appropriately?

What, if anything, are you going to do to try to FORCE her to realize the error of her ways? (should anyone ever FORCE anyone else? Does being right "matter?")

Careful! These are trick questions! (At least i think so!)

Paul: As a woman -- in my opinion -- I think what you're talking about in your wife -- is indeed a woman thing.....not an ADD thing....We want our male partners to read our minds -- as it has to do with the fact that many of us are insecure and question our mate's love for us...

In the case of you and your wife -- by supposedly knowing what's she thinking -- before she has to say anything -- well there's some unspoken validation of your love for her.....it shows her you must REALLY love her....because after all you're so intuned to her and you KNOW her so well.....

No it's not fair...nor is it a realistic expectation....but some women are like that....

I think what you say is true Joan, but I feel that some men are like that too. I became a good mind guesser after 7 years with a "Clam". always walking on eggshells.
I am sorry for your troubles Waywardclam, relationships/marriages can be so frustrating. All our problem are do to our insecurities.

Oh, and part two...

Al-anon identifies your perdicament... and suggests that when YOU are nolonger expecting to be able to read her mind, and are secure in your thought that you can't and don't need to TRY TO read her mind, that you can detach from both her expectation and her unreasonable wrath, as "her problem" lower case, no yelling, and not your job to fix. You simply say, if you must, "its not my job to read your mind, and I can't do that anyway. I love you regardless." and drop it. Without tieing yourself in a knott. Well, that is the "detach with love" idea at least... : ) good luck!

Thank you all for the added perspectives... they really help me keep my sanity... sometimes I know what's right, what is the best thing to do, but need someone else to say it to my face to make me realize that yes, I do know it already... :D

Oh easy answer! Women depend on what a person is feeling or appears before making a decision. Men go by their word of mouth.
Easy! Its a Men are from Mars thing. Don't you have the book? ;)

That Men are from Mars Women are from Venus thing has some useful anaologies, but the writer has really angered many anthropologists and the like... Men are from Earth, and so are women. We just have to learn to deal with that.

It is not an ADD thing I have seen this soooo many times and women seem to gloss over it and not even believe it exists. I think it has alot to do with the fact that women tend to be much better communicators and integrate emotional, and body language very much into their concious communications. Context is a much wider thing to them and they often can't seem to figure out why men can't seem to grasp the more subtle aspects of their communications. It's very simple. We gesticulate, we emote, and we inflect when we speak. Environmental context is immaterial to us, and words are most important, though we still read body language (we are more interested in the variety that points up a potential conflict or intimate encounter). This is a gross simplification, but the bottom line is, if you want us to "get it" S-P-E-L-L I-T O-U-T!!!!!!!! Hints are ineffective, subtle insults do not work as we are unaware of them, the same is true for subtle compliments and come ons. You have to make things abundantly clear for a guy. Actions for a man, by the way, do speak more loudly than words. Generalities? Yep. Generalities based on years of personal experience and peppered with a good bit of anthropology.

My wife does the same thing with me. It is enfuriating, and she fails to see what I have to be upset about. She sees it as a case of me needing to be more perceptive.... ?! How perceptive can you be?! I can tell her mood from body language and such, but her thoughts?

Wayward, what if the situation had taken place this way: what if your comment "I think we have time for a fourth game-what do you think Honey?" was your asking your wife to say "no there was not enough time" because you were the one communicating boredom and needing an out from the situation. Could she have read your mind in that case? It works both ways! Prior to a social situation, especially house parties, agree on a signal or phrase beforehand to indicate a need to leave. Putting your hand in a certain pocket or tugging at an earlobe works well. I used to ask my partner if he had watered the fish before we left and he knew that meant mental rigor mortis was setting in! lol! Have fun with it-life is just too short to sweat the small stuff!

Originally posted by tudorose
From a female perspective - tell her to communicate properly or put a sock in it.


Well from my perspective telling her to"put a sock in it" is insensitive to her issue. Also I would say "Oh yea? and where do you want me to stick this sock in you?" If my significant other has an issue and is angry, i want to work it out and fix what has caused the pain, provided they also want to do the same. tell her to communicate properly is an amorpheous statement expecting her to understand your version of communication. Many people feel they do communicate clearly , they dont realize that their message isnt getting across.

I suggest a keyword or statement, also. My girlfriends and I used to use statements that were code when we went out together so we knew what the other meant and they didnt need to appear rude or overbearing. One was, "I have really enjoyed this but I have that thing tomorrow, remember" That was our cue, no matter what the issue (we could discuss that in the car) that I or they needed out NOW. usually it was all we needed.

Keep it the same code no matter what the situation. It is simply a signal, not an actual statement. And its one you both know what it means.

I'm single, so my perspective may lack some depth. I was wondering about how the situation ended up with one person playing cards and presumably enjoying the evening, and the other one being alone and bored. IMHO, if you know you like cards and your partner doesn't, why not a) do something else together b) go alone.
Also don't understand if your partner knows she doesn't like cards, and knew that you guys would be playing, why did she go (instead of doing something she prefers). My .02.

Her answer to that is that she prefers to "be with me".

This is fine by me, but then she doesn't want to do anything that interests me! :mad:

I'm not married, so my answer might also lack some depth... Maybe you guys aren't spending enough "alone" time together? That would explain why she wants to be with you but doesn't want to do the stuff you want to do.

Then again, I can understand that she wants to be with you a lot. My boyfreind often gets mad at me for being a party pooper when he's with his freinds... I'll ask to come over and then be all stressed out becuase I'm supposed to be doing other work. There have been some rough times where I was debating wheather or not to come over, and he would just get all mad and tell me I couldn't come beucase I was going to be whiney! I would get so upset and cry over it becuase "he was being insensive"... and yet I knew in my heart that he was right. I just wanted to be with him, but at the same time I knew I shouldn't.

I know it's not the same with your wife, but maybe she is having dilemnas because she wants to be with YOU, but she doens't like the stuff you want to do. (lol... htat's exactly what you said!)

I hope that helps at least a little. I know females are confusing and irrational. ;)

Sounds very much like a fight I'd had with my husband over and over and over.......

Years ago I would have said it was all him...( my husband has a problem taking hints and with people being very assertive )

I see now, for me it's my ADD. When I'm taking my meds. I'm not so bored and if I am bored I come out and say " I've had enough". The older I get the more I realize people can not read my mind. Thank Goodness....lol.... Or I'd have much fewer friends...lol...

Paula

Mind reading FAILURE is a marital problem that has NOTHING to do with any of the rest of this.

That ADHD reduces the similarity of experience just exacerbates what is really a marital problem.

Mind reading is a No No even when you can do it.

It is a marital problem. see Mind reading professional help for yourself first, ask if she would like to reduce her own level of frustration? If she says yes, direct her to help, don't try to carry the message yourself. You'll only get burned at the stake.

it is a marital problem. Did i say that?

good lcuk.

Originally posted by Wheel1975
Mind reading FAILURE is a marital problem that has NOTHING to do with any of the rest of this.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you.......... This happens not only with married people...This can happen with friends, co- workers. Just at this time we're talking about when it happens to you and your spouse....

I agree this is a relationship issue and we have relationships with friends, with people online, with mothers with fathers with employers etc. Learning to communicate effectively isnt as easy as we would like and many times no matter how hard the two people try language is a very limited thing. Communications isnt just discussing, communication is "Honey I am thirsty" and Honey says"You're thirsty, would you like some water Dear? I would like to get you a glass of water." Dear answeres "yes, please" That is not the end of communication----Honey has to actually get up and get the glass of water and hand it to Dear, closing the communication regarding the glass of water and Dears thirst. Action must follow the thought and words. We can have the best of intentions but they do not come to fruition until we actually have action upon them. And while we are all responsible for our own choices, the beauty of marriage, friendships and other relationships is that they are supposed to be upbuilding and strengthening, we will sometimes go a little further than half way and sometimes our 'partner' will go a little further than half way. I know that if it hadn't been for many people being patient and reaching for me on days when i couldnt or didnt reach out, I may not have been able to learn to communicate even as ineffectively as I have, let alone at all. the rub lies in if we are going more than half way at the expense of our mental emotional spiritual or physical health. It will not always weigh out 100% evenly, though it should in many ways be reciprical somewhat equally. It is a team action,this thing called communication.

I have another twist on this. This could also be a clash of ADD types. For what you discribed in the first post is what happened to me and my ex. I'm of the ADD type that can pay attention to everything and notice everything to the point that I surprise people with their favorite color, the name of their dog, and what they had for lunch. My ex would be the happiest if he could focus his attention long enough to watch a commercial. Even after a year of being married he had no idea what color my eyes where. Lucky for him, he wasn't the first distractable ADD type I've met. But there were times when it would be a holiday or I'm working late and he just didn't pick up on the clues I gave off and I would be hurt. I learned to never beat around the bush or assume that he would get the hints. This skill helped me with others in the work force too. :)

There could be many possible reasons WC:

She was telling you she was bored and wanted to go using secret body language. Expression on her face or maybe her arms folded. Of course body lanuage will not help if you are not paying attention to her. After all the time you have been together you would think you both know how each other feels without even having to tell youand Maybe that was the real problem bothering her or she did not feel you were really paying attention to her.

When You have been with someone for so long, ADD Women already know what significant other is thinking...speaking from personal experience...With Kevin I knew exactly what he was going to do before he did it...He could never pull a fast one on me cause I was always prepared for it.

She might have already know that you were going to want to stay longer but she was hoping once again you would notice she wanted to leave. Maybe she wanted to feel that she was more important to you than a card game which you already said she wasn't. What if she did tell you that she was bored flat out...it would be an insult to your friend...simple courtesy to avoid being insulting.


On the other hand, I am far from one sided. If she expected you to know the way she is after the time you have been together, then she should know you by now that subtle hints do not work with you espiecially when focused on something else..and even if she did not want to be rude and say it out loud, she could have whispered it. Someway Make her voice known so you knew exactly where she stands.

I hope you guys can learn to communicate better in time.

Sorry, people, but this IS an ADD thing, and probably the most innocent and obvious one. Get used to it and learn to deal with it, or waste time being unhappy.

By which I mean, this isn’t so difficult to deal with, even if it takes a little time and effort. And getting it right will definitely make you happy as a clam at high tide (grin).

“My position is that this is impossible and unfair to me.” (waywardclam)

“No it's not fair...nor is it a realistic expectation....but some women are like that....” (joanrdtobe)

We actually can read minds, at least to the extent that waywardclam and his wife are bickering about. And I mean no disrespect in calling it that, only that anyone can address this with a committed partner and get it right without any huge breakthrough in understanding ourselves. Kay and I know that there’s nothing impossible or unrealistic about it, and gnarly theory isn’t needed for this one.

“Environmental context is immaterial to us, and words are most important, though we still read body language…” (E-boy)

If our experience is any indicator, waywardclam’s wife is bent out of shape because he expects and depends on her ability to know his mind, and be in sync with what his thoughts are, and he doesn’t reliably do the same for her. E-boy’s observation is a male universal, but underneath we expect her to follow different rules, because she always has.

And despite the sense we males have that we communicate in the way E-boy describes, we are just as capable of doing what women do as they are. We usually don’t, but don’t isn’t can’t. Often it’s just little boy stubbornness that keeps us from breaking through the emotional mess. (Don’t get bent out of shape, it’s not your fault. And it’s on her to understand that in order to get what she wants.)

So it gets to be a kind of a keeping score thing. Both you and your wife feel the situation is unfair, and the first step towards fixing it is recognizing that the difference in your expectations exists. That’s a realistic expectation, and I believe exactly what your post is about, so you’re on your way.

The men from Mars, women from Venus thing is a cutesy and well meaning misunderstanding, and the Twelve Step – Al-Anon thing suffers from a similar problem. There isn’t a thing wrong with what they’re trying to do, but in neither case is there an awareness of the actual communications taking place, or the intentions of the people involved.

We find typically that when waywardclam looks past his wife’s anger, and she lets it go, she will be able to express her frustration with how unfair she feels the situation is.

It’s only a small step from that to identifying exactly what it is about it that she considers unfair, and it is almost certain to be the perceived inequity in his expectations of her behavior, as compared to his.

Isn’t that what he already said? So how much more is needed? It’s not much.

“Women are generally better at that kind of thing although obviously ADD does affect that ability in both genders, just not to the same degree.” (Sc@tterBr@in_UK)

“it has alot to do with the fact that women tend to be much better communicators and integrate emotional, and body language very much into their concious communications. Context is a much wider thing to them and they often can't seem to figure out why men can't seem to grasp the more subtle aspects of their communications.” (E-boy)

More simply, there is a difference between how men and women perceive ordinary human communications. But it’s not what anyone thinks it is, so trying to fix it is full of superstition and failure.

Waywardclam’s wife needs to understand why his perception of the situation is different than hers, and this is where the other methods fail. The book doesn’t get it right at all, which is nothing new; this has been a problem for a long time, and a lot of books and theories have floated by over the years.

The Al-Anon thing is a fairly standard approach, basically noting that the problem exists and has no successful solutions, so it should be avoided entirely by enforcing a set of arbitrary (but seemingly reasonable) rules.

But arbitrary rules fail because they don’t do a thing for the perception that the situation is unfair. Live with that constantly, and frustration builds up in even the most charitable person.

The technical details of the difference in perception probably aren’t very important. We think it’s due to an extra bit of modeling that males do, a sort of extra layer of understanding of the situation that backfires because it insulates men from seeing it the same way women do.

The understanding that we need to deal with this is that the difference is caused by an independent mechanism in each of us, one that we don’t control but can see in action and avoid. It helps to think of it as an external thing entirely, and that’s not far from the truth. We all feel it, and that’s the root of our frustration: it’s not our fault.

“When she's in a calm & rational state of mind, discuss the possibility of some non-verbal cue's or actual cue cards that she can use when she gets upset so that way she can communicate with you without having to talk.” (tudorose)

“Maybe the key is to agree to communicate more that what you think you should have to” (tudorose)

That’s exactly the ticket, tudorose. What’s clearly most important is recognizing the situation, devising some kind of arbitrary (and temporary) safety valve for the emotion, and then letting go of the years of built up emotion and kinks in our attitude. Expect it to involve feeling like you are giving more than you’re getting. (Who wouldn’t gladly do that for the one you love?)

It’s essential to care; this will only work if you love each other, but it’s OK for the love to be out of sight behind the walls we build behind this sort of misunderstanding. The desire to re-establish those intense feelings we have when the whole thing begins is a powerful driver, and Kay and I can attest to how cool the result can be.

“The trouble is she doesn't WANT more communication, she wants me to be able to tell without her having to say anything.” (waywardclam)

“…when she is upset she tends to revert to expecting me to read her mind...” (waywardclam)

“All our problems are due to our insecurities.” (Jellybean)

“…the bottom line is, if you want us to "get it" S-P-E-L-L I-T O-U-T!!!!!!!! Hints are ineffective, subtle insults do not work as we are unaware of them…” (E-boy)

Oh yes she does want more communication, and that’s not the trouble. Neither are her expectations unrealistic; she’s not reverting to anything but the truth. It will feel like you are going to allow her to completely define the rules, and you are, but she’s not wrong, they’re not her rules, and you’ve been defining them for her since the beginning if your relationship is typical. So it’s not so bad for it to be her turn as long as you come out even, and you will.

And any kind of persistent difference in perception is anxiety causing, simply because there doesn’t seem to be any way to control the situation. Insecurity, here we come; both the male and female responses are perfectly framed by Jellybean and E-boy.

Insecurity is the response, not the problem; it seems the other way around because you recognize the futility of trying to control the real problem.

And we males just can’t stop ourselves from trying to fix out of control situations with arbitrary rules. It’s the most common external manifestation of our insecurity.

In fact, this stuff is the poster child for anxiety; if I see or feel it, I automatically look for the incorrect perception. When Kay and I first started to address this verbally, we used this metaphor:

Think of yourself and your wife as two powerful beings, each standing on your own magic platform, looking out over your domain. You face each other, and in your hands are the controls for the height of the platform. You’re both good at heart, and all either of you wants is for your platforms to be even with each other.

But occasionally, while you sleep, an evil sorcerer sneaks a pair of invisible glasses on one or another of you, or sometimes both. And the glasses are broken, so when you look at your wife’s platform, it seems to be higher than it actually is.

When you wake up you immediately notice, and move your platform to make them even. Of course, that really makes it higher, but the glasses are broken, and you can’t see it. Your wife, not knowing why you made the platforms uneven, nevertheless assumes that you still want them to be even, so she adjusts hers to match yours.

At this point you are busy trying to figure out why she moved hers in the first place, and her sudden adjustment seems like a clear communication of a completely unclear message. For whatever reason, her platform again clearly looks higher than yours, and so the fun begins.

We used this to focus on the fact that, like the magic glasses, the reasons things seem inequitable are not our doing, nor are they under our control. They’re built into all of us, and they’re going to happen. They still do as much as they ever did, when Kay and I are each standing on our platforms, all proud and full of ourselves.

The metaphor let us devise the trick of each giving the other control of our own platform. It’s just trust, and when we see a difference in height it’s easier to assume something we did created it. But what we really want is to share one platform.

Whenever we find ourselves separated, our first priority is to find our way back to a single shared platform. We spend most of our time being linked in exactly the way that waywardclam’s wife expects, reading each other’s minds, and when we’re there, totally with each other, these problems don’t exist.

Sometimes, neither does anything or anybody else, but we don’t think that’s a problem. It’s what we signed on for in the first place.

And you know, a lot of people won’t play cards or other competitive games with us, because they think we cheat.

Good luck.

I don't think only women do it. I know I did that in my marriage, but my ex also expected me to read his mind. IE: he acted exactly the same when he was sick as when he felt well (on purpose), but he expected me to know he when he wasn't feeling well. If he came home and snapped at me and got irritated with me for something, he expected me to know that it was because something bad had happened at work that day.

He was a master at hiding his feelings, yet he expected me to still know what he was feeling. Although, maybe I'm not like most women, since I don't read people very well, or notice subtle body-language signs.

Of course, I also suspect my ex was undiagnosed ADD ... so go figure

I still think it could be possible you have ADD flower girl. I never thought of my father as having it, even though looking back on things I know that is where it came from. He could "Do" things and didn't fall apart out in the world the way I have before. People with highly directed ADD are like that though. Many others have mixes of "Types" that are truly confusing to me. I have no idea what "Type" I fall under because aspects of all of them fit. In anycase, sometimes I read your posts and I think "ADD?" Either, there's truth to the idea that most people carry at least some ADD traits, you have some form of ADD, or I'm seeing ADD behind every rock and bush and you are just an example of the diversity and commonality among all people, ADD or not.

Stabile is right about one thing though. Men can form theories of mind too, and the primary differences between the genders are differences of degree, and fall into a continum in anycase, so Not every woman is going to be a better "communicator" than every man, though on average, they really do tend to have a better nuerological set up for it. More distributed processing in language use, more interconnections to other brain areas, and a stronger ability to handle "emotional" issues through verbal means, rather than through action (as observed in the oft pointed out fact that men always want to "Fix" things even when women only want someone to listen, not fix). Social factors come into play in the way in which boys and girls learn what socially acceptable ways they are expected to behave and react. Therefore communication skills are re-enforced in women, and tend to be less exercised in males who are often taught that certain forms of emotional expression are "less than manly", do less socializing in the form of establishing "support groups" for each other's emotional needs, and are far less likely to share emotional vulnerabilities with anyone.

Men can learn to read cues, facial expressions, tones, inflections, and even more subtle variations in our communication in relationships. It takes time, observation, and clarification that the non-verbal communication being sent, is being recieved accurately to avoid potential misunderstandings.

I made my comment about "Spelling it out", largely out of frustration, but also as a rejoinder to the oft stated question, "Well why can't you pay more attention?!" Um, I do try. However, if one knows someone has a particular difficulty, there is nothing wrong with working with that person to get around that difficulty to improve communication. In other words, while the demand to "spell it out" may not have been very constructive as originally posted, it holds true for me. What I am saying with this remark, is that if something is important to ensure is gotten across accurately, then you need to have a way to verify the message is there in one peice. Hence, "spelling it out" really means a two way process of communicate, Repeat back to show you've heard and understood (and are there and not off in la la land), and move on. Granted it doesn't have the artful subtlety of a Jane Austin novels communication between man and woman, but until communication is solid, you can't expect improvements in knowing your partner's moods, expressions ect. accurately enough to "Read" her or him. ADDers are sensitive, but often still misread the motives behind the emotional signals they see. So, starting basic, and working up, is a good way to start.