Being a boring day with nothing to do at work, my mind tends to wander. I'm sure some of you might be able to relate. ;)

The random thought that popped into my mind today that I am currently obsessively focusing on is this:

Have there ever been any studies done on deja-vu to see if was actually a real phenomena (more towards the "are we psychic?" line of thought) or some kind of random brain synapse firing that just makes us think we have been here, said that or done that before in our brain (more towards the neurological, biochemical "you're just nuts and here's the drug that will fix you" line of thought)?

Having been recently diagnosed with ADD(I), one of the more interesting things I have learned is that a persistent feeling of deja-vu seems to be one of the potential indicators of this condition. At least I think I saw that somewhere, though with my short term memory half of my brain could just be making that up and selling it for a profit to the other half...

Take a look at Laszlo's paper, "PSI, somethingorother". It is referenced in the evolutionary psychology thread.
Read that thread, it outta keep you busy for awhile. LOL...

There's a book titled The Universe and Multiple Reality, by Law professor, M.R. Franks, that talks about similar phenomena, such as the nature of the universe in which we live and the exact processes by which mind interacts with matter at the quantum level.

One of many, many, I've read, 'disected' and enjoyed thoroughly.



It deals with Quantum Physics- but that book is written in 'laymens terms'...so don't be so quick to write it off, only for that specific purpose.




The author comments on theories by: Alain Aspect (the Aspect experiment)

John Stewart Bell (Bell's Theorem)
David Bohm
David Deutsch
Bryce DeWitt
Sir John Eccles
Albert Einstein
Hugh Everett
Stephen Hawking
Douglas Hofstadter
Fred Hoyle
Julian Jaynes
Sir James Jeans
Carl Jung
Subhash Kak
Sir Charles Lyell
Hermann Minkowski
Karl Pribram
Rupert Sheldrake
Neil Sloane
John Wheeler


and clarifies why paranormal phenomena, including deja-vu, have an actual basis in perceived reality.




Here's part of a chapter excerpt from it:


Postulate One
Every conceivable energy state exists.

There is no one reality. Each of us lives in a separate universe. That's not speaking metaphorically. This is the hypothesis of the stark nature of reality suggested by recent developments in quantum physics. Reality in a dynamic universe is non-objective. Consciousness is the only reality.

The purpose of this short book is to suggest a model for quantum superposition of realities, the better to visualize how these quantum effects "leak out" into the macroworld and indeed define it.

This first postulate simply asks us to assume that every possible arrangement of matter and energy consistent with the laws of quantum physics exists. This postulate asks us to assume, among other things, that a universe exists "right now" somewhere that differs from our own only in that one electron on one remote planet of one distant star in, say, the Andromeda Galaxy is in a less excited energy state. Another universe exists that differs from the present universe only in that one photon, of all the photons in the room where this book is being read, is positioned exactly one Ångström unit to the left. Another universe exists in which the earth has two natural moons. Another universe exists in which there is no planet earth. Another exists in which Elizabeth Taylor has brown eyes. Another exists in which George Washington has a wart on his nose.

If a universe can be imagined, it exists. The late Sir James Jeans, the great British astronomer, was among the first scientists to recognize the universe as a creature of imagination. He wrote in 1932:

To-day there is a wide measure of agreement, which on the physical side of science approaches almost to unanimity, that the stream of knowledge is heading towards a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears as an accidental intruder into the realm of matter; we are beginning to suspect that we ought rather to hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter - not of course our individual minds, but the mind in which the atoms out of which our individual minds have grown exist as thoughts.

This new knowledge compels us to revise our hasty first impression that we had stumbled into a universe which either did not concern itself with life or was actively hostile to life.

Indeed, every conceivable arrangement of matter and energy, however improbable, is postulated to exist as a separate universe.

This suggestion is not entirely strange to quantum cosmology. Hugh Everett first postulated "parallel universes" in 1957. David Deutsch, a research fellow at the Department of Astrophysics, Oxford, and a professor at the University of Texas, tells us:

I think it's safe to say that there is a very large, probably infinite, number of these universes. Many of them are very different from ours, but some of them differ only in some minute detail like the position of a book on a table, and are identical in every other respect.

Davies and Brown tell us:

If the many-universes theory were correct, however, the seemingly contrived organization of the cosmos would be no mystery. We could safely assume that all possible arrangements of matter and energy are represented somewhere among the infinite ensemble of universes. Only in a minute proportion of the total would things be arranged so precisely that living organisms, hence observers, arise. Consequently, it is only that very atypical fraction that ever get observed. In short, our universe is remarkable because we have selected it by our own existence!

Notice, however, that while Everett, DeWitt, Deutsch and others postulate an infinity of universes, each of their postulated universes is dynamic, moving, changing. Bryce DeWitt of the University of Texas tells us that under this theory "every quantum transition taking place on every star, in every galaxy, in every remote corner of the universe is splitting our local world into myriads of copies of itself. Here is schizophrenia with a vengeance!"

There can be no doubt that these pioneers envision multiple worlds that are dynamic, moving and changing.

P. C. W. Davies and J. R. Brown speak of the imaginary experiment involving Schrödinger's cat, so named for the physicist Erwin Schrödinger who first conjured up the idea in 1935. In this thought experiment a cat is placed in a box. A quantum event determines whether this imaginary cat is poisoned or not. Perhaps a Geiger counter is arranged to count the number of particles encountered in a defined time period, and if the count is odd, a hammer is tripped and a glass vial's deadly contents are inflicted on the cat. If the count is even, the cat is allowed to live. However the situation may be arranged, it is arranged so that a quantum event determines the cat's fate.

Quantum physics tells us that upon the happening of the event the cat goes into two superimposed states, one of being half alive and the other of being half dead. Only when the human experimenter arrives later to look into the box does objective reality "collapse" in upon the events. And then that reality instantly collapses back retroactively to the time of the fateful event. Speaking of this, Davies and Brown tell us:

According to Everett the transition occurs because the universe splits into two copies, one containing a live cat and the other a dead cat. Both universes contain one copy of the experimenter too, each of whom thinks he is unique. In general, if a quantum system is in a superposition of, say, n quantum states, then, on measurement, the universe will split into n copies. In most cases, n is infinite. Hence we must accept that there are actually an infinity of 'parallel worlds' co-existing alongside the one we see at any instant. Moreover, there are an infinity of individuals, more or less identical with each of us, inhabiting these worlds. It is a bizarre thought.

In Everett's view, because each of these worlds is dynamic, the live cat goes on living in the one world, while in the other world someone presumably takes the carcass out of the box and buries it.

David Deutsch tells us that Everett's universes all are "changing in content."



The present postulate differs from their thinking in that here each of the postulated universes is absolutely static, frozen, unchanging.

SuperDave, I don't have any science to give you, but all through my life I have had dJv's. Not just the kind where I THINK I've been here before, but I KNOW what's going to happen, unfold, be spoken, etc. It's kind of creepy. It always starts out with that inkling that a situation is familiar, like I am observing or watching, stepping back to survey the plot in action. I suppose it's something that could be devoloped if one wished to.

The French translation for déjà vu is "already seen". It's also known as paramnesia, and it describes the experience of feeling that one has witnessed or experienced a new situation previously.

The term was created by a French psychic researcher, Emile Boirac in his book L'Avenir des sciences psychiques (The Future of Psychic Sciences), which expanded upon his essay, while being an undergrad at the U. of Chicago.

Déjà vu is usually accompanied by a compelling sense of familiarity, and also a sense of "eerieness" or "strangeness".

In recent years, déjà vu has been subjected to serious psychological and neurophysiological research.

The most likely candidate for explanation, according to scientists in these fields, is that déjà vu is not an act of "precognition" or "prophecy" but is actually an anomaly of memory (what isn't a cognitive 'anomaly' according to the 'scientific community')- it is the impression that an experience is "being recalled" which is false. This is substantiated to an extent by the fact that in most cases the sense of "recollection" at the time is strong, but any circumstances of the "previous" experience (when, where and how the earlier experience occurred) are quite uncertain.

As time passes, subjects can exhibit a strong recollection of having the "unsettling" experience of déjà vu itself, but little to no recollection of the specifics of the event(s) or circumstances they were "remembering" when they had the déjà vu experience, and in particular, this may result from an overlap between the neurological systems responsible for short-term memory (events which are perceived as being in the present) and those responsible for long-term memory (events which are perceived as being in the past).

Neurophysiological specialist Stephanie Warn (based out of San Francisco) has dedicated research on the subject matter. Her current conclusion is that déjà vu is merely the brain pulsing at an exponential rate which causes a person to recall something he or she saw the moment before. (She needs to do more research, in my opinion, because this 'recall' has never been about prior 'moments')


And here we go...with the 'logical' reasons, folks...:o

A clinical correlation has been found between the experience of déjà vu and disorders such as schizophrenia and anxiety, and the likelihood of the experience increases considerably with subjects having these conditions.

However, the strongest pathological association of déjà vu is with temporal lobe epilepsy. (Nice..huh ?- of course I'm being defensive about the phrase 'pathological, since I have TLE, and the only thing I find pathological is the insulting phrases, that seem to be a staple, in this article).

This correlation has led some researchers to speculate that the experience of déjà vu is possibly a neurologicalanomaly (there's that 'oh so fun' word, again) related to improper electrical discharge in the brain.

As most people suffer a mild epileptic episode regularly (the sudden "jolt"), also known as a hypnogogic jerk, (No...that's not a term of endearment for your last horrible date) that frequently occurs just prior to falling asleep, a similar neurological aberration (change of pace in the selection of abusive terms, LOL) occurs in the experience of déjà vu, resulting in an erroneous "memory".



Ahhhh....don't we all feel 'warm and fuzzy' now, that we know the 'truth'....??

Or you can do like I always do, and take this info as being an 'illusion'...and run with your own intelligently formed theories, on why déjà vu occurs.

Please... ignore my tangent, throughout this article.:rolleyes:

Nova

I haven't had this in years and had deja-vu just this weekend and it was freaky.

I got this weird dizzy kinda feeling as I felt for a flash like someone was playing a trick on me.

Psycic, I doubt. However, some people with epilepsy experience deva-vu as a partial seizure (a prodrome).


ME :D

Is deja vu real? Haven't I heard this question before? :)

It felt pretty real to me. I tapered of of wellbutrin xl and was not on it for a month, and during that time I experienced frequent, STRONG feelings of deja-vu until I started back onto wellbutrin ir. I'm interpreting it as partial seizures due to the removal of wellbutrin after being on it for a year. It was kinda neat, but knowing that it was a possible prodrome to a grand mal seizure was a bit scarey.

ME :D


Is deja vu real? Haven't I heard this question before? :)

Ughhh, not another philosopher trying to tie quantum electrodynamics to the world at large.

If you believe that first paper (the one tying Uncertainty to "deja-vu"), my friend Schroedinger has a cat to sell you. I can't tell you whether to buy it or not, though, as I haven't observed it yet.

Thanks, Nova, for the explanation of what the world view is on deja-vu. I can see and even understand the scientific view as explained (re: the non quantum physics explanation :eyebrow: ), but it just seems so real to me when it happens that I still find the scientific explanation lacking in believability for some illogical reason.

As far as the cat for sale, Hyperion, would I be purchasing a live or a dead cat? :D

Is it deja-vu if you can pinpoint when and where you had the both experiences? I'll get it and then months or years later will go "Hey I thought about this back when."

It's probably just a clich in the matrix. :p

on deja-vu.....it just seems so real to me when it happens


It is real, Dave,
For you.

All of our created observed reality is absolutely 'as real', and subjective, as another's. (0:



It's 'doubt' that tends to intermittently wreak havoc, LOL !




Nova

As far as the cat for sale, Hyperion, would I be purchasing a live or a dead cat? :D

Depends on how much you like cats...doesn't it ? :D



Peace,
Nova

Your entitled to your opinion, as we all are, H.

Just remember...no one can be an expert in ALL subjects....


Nova

Is deja vu real? Haven't I heard this question before? :)

LOL !!

Awwwwww Speed,

I'll always help you get rid of those 'bad 'ol scary's', Bud. (0:


Nova

The 'matrix' rocks !!!

As far as the cat for sale, Hyperion, would I be purchasing a live or a dead cat? :D
So long as you don't open the box, does it matter? :p

So long as you don't open the box, does it matter? :p

Couldn't you just poke a hole in the box and peek without opening it? :D

Couldn't you just poke a hole in the box and peek without opening it? :D
Is this the Xmas presents theory of observation?:eyebrow:

The 'matrix' rocks !!!sb...

So long as you don't open the box, does it matter?
And Proscrire wins for best reference.

Although I like the implications of Dave's Xmas theory...Imagine what one could do if that were true

I get deja vu pretty often.
I also miss the stair while falling asleep and sometimes when I'm awake!
I like the ,,, hey what's going on with my kbd. stupid control characters...
I like the theory of unconsciously recognizing 'it' first, then the conscious mind catches up.
pokey.

If I'm in line, I look behind me, then turn back. Then when I look behind me again, I think I recognize the person so I do this repeatedly and before you know it, I've known them forever! ok, that's not deja vu.

As far as the cat for sale, Hyperion, would I be purchasing a live or a dead cat

Will the dead cat come complete with flamaldahide(?-sp- the stuff they fill dead things with to keep ‘em from stinking) or a taxidermy special?! I do dead things better than I do dead smells.


Just remember...no one can be an expert in ALL subjects....

No not experts in all subjects but we are all experts in our own opinion- in my opinion :p !



So long as you don't open the box, does it matter?

Might . . .might not . . . never know until you try. Besides I like cats preferably the living kind!

Oh yea the subject deja vu . . .= not dead cats!

I almost forgot!

This thread reminds me of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective agency...

good stuff...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5194382.stm


Deja vu 'recreated in laboratory'


Scientists believe they have found a way to probe the mysterious phenomenon of feeling you have witnessed something before - deja vu.

Leeds Memory Group researchers say they have gone some way to recreating the sensation in the lab using hypnosis.

New Scientist magazine reports the researchers hope their work will shed light on the fundamental workings of the human memory.

It is estimated that as many as 97% of people have experienced deja vu.

In some severe cases it can be distressing to the point of causing depression and some sufferers have been prescribed anti-psychotic medication.

However, experts suspect that many people who experience the sensation are unwilling to discuss it with their doctor.



Two stage process

Two key processes are thought to occur when someone recognises a familiar object or scene.

First, the brain searches through memory traces to see if the contents of that scene have been observed before.

If they have, a separate part of the brain then identifies the scene or object as being familiar.

In deja vu, this second process may occur by mistake, so that a feeling of familiarity is triggered by a novel object or scene.

The Leeds team set out to create a sense of deja vu among volunteers in a lab.

They used hypnosis to trigger only the second part of the recognition process - hoping to create a sense of familiarity about something a person had not seen before.

The researchers showed volunteers 24 common words, then hypnotised them and told them that when they were next presented with a word in a red frame, they would feel that the word was familiar, although they would not know when they last saw it.

Green frames would make them think that the word belonged to the original list of 24.

Peculiar sensation

After being taken out of hypnosis, the volunteers were presented with a series of words in frames of various colours, including some that were not in the original 24 and which were framed in red or green.

Of the 18 people studied so far, 10 reported a peculiar sensation when they saw new words in red frames and five said it definitely felt like deja vu.

Researcher Akira O'Connor presented the findings to an International Conference on Memory in Sydney, Australia.

He told New Scientist: "This tells us that it is possible to experimentally dissociate these two processes, which is really important in establishing that they are indeed separate."

Some people with temporal lobe epilepsy report frequent deja vu.

And previous work in France has found that electrically stimulating parts of the temporal lobe can trigger a sensation of familiarity with everything a person encounters.

Professor Alan Brown, an expert in deja vu at South Methodist University in Dallas, said: "Using hypnotic suggestion to either stimulate, or simulate, a deja vu experience could potentially be a very fruitful way to explore this phenomenon. "I don't have a lot of detail about the Leeds project but from what I know it certainly seems to be solid work with an intriguing outcome."

intresting therd nova but i still think djva is really becoaue in the lab they have to do things like hippnoss to trigger something like it off an seond is they trying to dismiss it as something that dont exist in the neate world view ofve things it works the whys an where fors great therde nova thanks for looking the info up whatt you think??? an wounders what others think two it dorm

i read somewhere once that if u are having de ja vus it's a sign u r on the right path.
I like this explanation and believe it and use it to make myself feel good.
It also ties in with the quantum physics explanation... ties in with notions of morphic resonance.. ties in with ideas of a collective conscience.. ties in with the aboriginal concept of dream time.
i like de ja vu.

My theory of daja-vus stem from we lack autonomy in our behaviour, which is tied into the continues loop theory of the universe...

The world expands, gets to a points, then retracts back to a points and implodes. Then the expanding universe cycle starts again. This is an infinite and continues cycle that always happens in exactly the same way.

As this always happens, in exactly the same way, so does all of the other stuff - peoples behaviour, e.g the first ever human always appears at the same point in time, in each cycle of the expanding universe. That first human always does the same thing. infact, all humans do exactly the same thing. which means I am denying that we have any real control over what we do - choice is an illusian, as our behaviour was determined an infinite time ago, with the first loop in the infinite cycle.

I also beleive when we die, we just relieve our lives again, in exactly the same way as we did in our previous life, because when we are dead, we do not possese the capacity to experience non-existance, so we just start all over again.

somewhere along the lines, is where daja-vus fit in, because we have done everything before.

My friends don't understand what I am saying when I explain that to them, but hopefully fellow ADHD'ers will understand what I mean.

In my next life, I'm coming back as a cat. :cool:

I get it.

Grasping the 'Life Lessons' in cycle of reincarnation. (0;

I was new to the forums when i saw something that caught my eye. There was post on here about deja vu. I couldn't believe it. Ive been having some long terms problems with ADD. Long term being i didn't know what was wrong with me. I been to see Drs. was told that i was depressed was senstive persoanlity bipolar ADD anxeity. I think that they way i present makes it hard for them to know whats going on. And i think for others they just too stupid. When i first went to therapy i was depressed. But i had secound amount of problems that were never addressed. The Dr. im seeing now says im bright. I think that i don't right off the bat seem like i have ADD. Because im im not physically restless and i don't seem to maybe right out seem like i have problems focusing but for the other symptoms i struggle hard with. Im very intense detailed person. In school i struggled hard. i half the time never handed my work in. Never knew what i did with my stuff. I always felt on edge. Like i was going to get caught. As an adult. Its even worse. I have hard time paying my bills. Because im spending it on other stuff. Spending money i do have i spend on stupid stuff. I don't half the time take my medications, show up for appts. or even know when they are. I don't do the exercises the dr prescribes. I want to go to college i just know im going to flunk out. I don't mind working on the stuff i like to do but when it comes do the stuff that counts i just can't seem to get into it. I end up putting it away to do it later and never do. I could give millions of examples. But i feel fustrated, alone. I tried taking medication. But it doesn't work..i just end up feeling irratable and agiated. I don't want to spend my life feeling that way. BUT TO GET TO THE POINT. THIS GOES OUT TO " NOVA". I saw something that caught my eye. I always had this werid deja vu thing, since i was kid. I had hard time getting my parents to understand because they don't like hearing about things they think is hooey, anything that doesn't sound logical. I told them i would get deja vu it used to feel like where i was or something i heard happened before. But i noticed it was mostly what i heard. Somtimes it was something the teacher was saying or tv or i be talking. I swear i heard the excat same words before. I brought it up to the Dr. once, but he told me i was dissociating. And i never brought it up again. Because i didn't want him to think i was crazy. Then the physcologist i have know i was telling her that i dont feel like im excatlly experncing something over again. But its more like feeling that comes over me. I don't know how to explain it. Its almost like a dream. Not in the way it feels. But that in after it happens i don't know what it is that i thought i reheard. I have feeling that if i write it down right away i might remember what it is that i thought i heard before. I used to get it when i was young. I remeber i was standing at the sink. And i was talking to my mom when that funny feeling came over me. And even though i can here her talking to me i couldn't respond. I must had funny look on my face and she asked what was wrong. And then i bent over threw up in the sink. I didn't always get throw up though. It happened to me sometimes in the middle of class i would be sitting in class i would feel so intensly sick that i didn't know if i should jump up run to the bathroom, or if i was going to get sick there. And before i had chance to think about it. It would pass that quickly. I don't get them as much as i used too. Proably every few months. I only had it come over me once this year. But i can't believe that there is actually medical explantion for this thing. At least now i don't have to feel like im crazy. Thank you nova. I should print it out show my doctor.

Im going to guess that its just a misfiring neuron rather than some multiverse string theory jibba jabba (no offense).

You're very welcome, but SuperDave should really get the credit, for starting this thread. (0:

All I did was add to it.

I swear I get it all the time.. but I like it now.. atleast then I know everythings good..I consider them check points now