I have been reading a lot of threads about how people are so upset with their teachers. I agree that they should work with you to implement accomodations which will help your childs behavior. I have been fortunate that my childs teachers have been very accomodating with our suggestions. I am also lucky that my childs ADD behavior in class amounts to shutting down an not doing the work. In other words she is not disruptive. So, I admit I am lucky in those respects.

However, in my classroom visits and through my wifes teaching experience I have seen kids that can be extremely disruptive in class. Sometimes it is ADD and sometimes it is not. It can really take a lot of time to manage these kids. Is it really fare to the kids that behave, to give up an inordinate amount of teacher time to the kids that don't behave well? I have seen comments like "I deal with my childs behavior so the teacher can too." The obvious problem with that argument is that there are 19-30 more kids in the class. If it was a private school, they will work with your child for a while, then if the behavior problems are not reduced, they will just ask your chile to leave.

Public schools (in the US) are not allowed to do this. Their final straw can be to send your child to "special ed".

In contrast to my ADDer my other child is very well behaved and is great at participating in class. Her No. 1 complaint at the end of each day is that the dissuptive kids in class waste so much time. She gets frustrated when the teacher waits for disruptive kids to finally sit down and do "criss cross applesauce".

Put yourself in the teachers shoes. How much time would you be willing to spend on the difficult to manage children?

I think the key though, is, what the law states...that a child has a right to receive an adequate and equal education to those without disabilities. So how do you get this with children that are disruptive? They will be sitting in our prisons, or institutions if we don't educate them. Not to mention that it is just a basic right, at least in the USA. The fact that they have a disability that can cause them to act inappropriately, shouldn't mean they don't get an education. Sure you can throw them in a special ed class, but is that adequate? For many it would not be. My mother worked in a special ed class for years, and she said they spent so much time just trying to socialize and treat basic skills to the children, that the education they received was severely lacking. Of course I'm sure this was before the No Child Left Behind Act, and I hope things have improved since then.

On the other hand, I do agree with your point that teachers can't spend all their time focused on just one child because "everyone" deserves an adequate education, but there does have to be some understanding there too. My daughter has to sit in the front of the class room. She has amblyopia in one eye and can't see well, even with glasses. If she is stuck at the back of the class, she can't learn as well. By having to sit in front, it can be an inconvenience at times for other children. They may not get a turn in the front row because she takes up a spot. Some get upset because she doesn't have to take turns rotating to the back. It's inconvenient, for the teacher and other kids, but she can't miss out on her education because of something out of her control.
I realize my example is not in the same context of what you are saying, but the basic point is the same. They shouldn't miss out on an education because of something out of their control. The other options available for these children would likely leave them not getting an adequate education. On the other hand, a child having to wait for a minute before the teacher can start a lesson because of a child acting out, is not going to stop them from getting an adequate education. Even though it may be annoying.

I do think more needs to be done on the part of the school though. Sometimes they make it so tough for parents to get services. They fight parents tooth and nail and many parents don't know the laws, or know they can fight back. Of course some districts are great, I'm not saying they are all the same.
I think we need more aids available for these situations. Personal aids that can sit with children, through the school day, and help them keep themselves in control, and guide them. This helps the child stay mainstreamed, helps the child get an equal and adequate education, and helps the teacher spread out her time more evenly.
Unfortunately it is very hard to get the school to agree to put an aid for a child into a child's IEP. Some do get them, but it's difficult.

It's a hard situation and I feel for all sides. We deal with both sides. My daughter, beyond her vision issues and having to have an accommodation for that, is a perfect student. She is a huge help to the teachers, and is very bright. I get frustrated at times because she is really advanced in some areas and I feel like she isn't being pushed like she should be because she has to do the same work as other kids. So on one hand, I am bothered that her education is not "as rich" as I feel it could be, even though it is "adequate".

On the other side I have a son who has ADHD and we are almost positive has Aspergers as well (waiting for one more test result to confirm), and he can be a problem in class. He can't sit still and tends to try and get out of his seat, because of his ADHD. He also doesn't grasp a lot of things that would be logical to other children. NT children know that you don't get up out of your seat because it's a rule. My son, while he knows it's a rule, can't apply that (because of the Aspergers). If he has a reason, that is a logical reason for needing to get up, then he will do it.

His disabilities prevent him from behaving like other children. He is not like other children. Yet, the best place for him (out of the options available) is in a mainstream class room because he can learn the information, and needs the socialization.
So I do kind of feel like others have said....I'm over here dealing with this (something none of us chose), I'm doing everything within my power to help him, and I don't think he should lose the right of an equal and adequate education because of his disabilities. So yes, in a country where every child is entitled to a free education, I expect my child to receive the same. I expect the teachers to do their best to give him the education he needs, just as they do every other child in their school. I can't home-school him, it's not an option, nor would it be good for him. I can't afford a private school, nor would they let him stay. Special Ed classes while they have some really great value, in other ways would not provide what the mainstream class does. So it's kind of like "what next"? I realize he can be disruptive, that he takes a little more of the teachers time, but what DO I do?

Again, for us, and Aide would be ideal, given the options we have. A school for high functioning children on the spectrum would be a dream. To be able to be taught in the ways he learns best, instead of him being expected to learn like others do, even though he CAN learn the same information. To be able to take a break and go to a sensory room to decompress when needed. To have structured free time, where he can be taught important social skills ,instead of being set free on a play ground, to be once again sent to the principle for reasons directly related to his disabilities. Which always sends the message to him again that he can't be good, isn't like everyone else, and chips away at his self esteem even more. To have all that, and avoid the down sides that we face in public schools set up for NT children, would be heaven. These schools exist, but they are very very few and far between. You see, it doesn't seem real fair from this side of things either.

I don't think there is a right or wrong here. I do think NT children are missing out, but so are disabled children that fall in between severe, and NT. I think they all have rights, and neither side is getting all of them. Right now there just aren't a lot of options out there, and to little funding for schools. The potential for a happy medium for everyone is out there, but I doubt we are going to see it become common place for a long time to come.

My son was 5 years old when he was excluded from mainstream school. He was totally out of control in class so it was inevitable he would be excluded. Our main issue was the way the school dealt with it. They had promised to allow him to reduce his hours and were to apply for a statement of needs. But rang us on a Thursday evening and told us not to bring him back for 21 days. We had to break the news to him that he couldn't attend school the next day. Bang went any self esteem he had left. During the following weeks we asked why the Statement paperwork hadn't been started. We were told it hadn't been high on their list of things to do at the school.

I do emphasis with the school dealing with these children, my son falls into the disruptive catagory, but i do feel, especially in England that the schools have very little experience of understanding these children. Until recent years, difficult children were put in 'Special school'. Where behaviour could be managed, but their academic eduaction suffered. Suddenly the government insisted on them going into mainstream and the schools didn't know what hit them. His school had an easy time of it before this and didn't need to educate these children, so when my son appeared it took them by surprise. We didn't want him out of mainstream, because he is as bright as a button and needs stimulating.

We took the decision to withdraw our son from school for 2 years and educate at home. It was not easy and he suffered for his social skills. That is why he is in school now. We have been fortunate and found an excellent mainstream school, that has the special needs experience. I have to say though it is in a more needy area, which has a higher percentage of special needs. They had to adapt. He has 30 hours of support every week made available to him. This involves a class room assistant sitting with him and guiding him through.

I think what i am trying to say is that the schools don't always have the training or the understanding to deal with a disruptive child. However they need to intergrate in the world they are to live in. He has little control over his behaviour, in fact i know how much he wants to be 'normal'. These very special children need one to one help, something that has to be fought for in this country.

My oldest child (28) was the inattentive adhd type and in the very extreme. It was disruptive to the class because the teacher had to spend so much time trying to keep him on task. I suppose it was to her credit that she even tried. Maybe he was disruptive in other ways that I didn't comprehend because I was so young and inexperienced. She recommended an evalutation. By being placed in a behavioral ed class the teacher-student ratio would address part of the problem right away. Is that a special ed class? Anyway I can't see the complaint about there not being time to learn much because social skills were having to be addressed so much. Lack of social skills is a major impediment to learning in the first place. You can't ignore it.

We had trouble getting my son placed because he wasn't hyperactive. The AEA's response was that the other kids in the class would eat him alive and so were leaning towards denying the services. I would say that falls under the heading "chosing to ignore the problem" because it didn't fall into some neat category. Luckily he had an excellent social worker on his side that saw what was going on and reminded them of the law - she did it just barely above a whisper, coolest thing I have ever seen - and got him what he needed.

I don't think a special ed class has to be considered throwing them away. It used to be that repeating kindergarten was considered failure but it isn't anymore.

Anyway I can't see the complaint about there not being time to learn much because social skills were having to be addressed so much. Lack of social skills is a major impediment to learning in the first place. You can't ignore it.

My apologies that my wording didn't exactly reflect my thoughts. I didn't mean to imply that social skills were not important. I absolutely don't think they should be ignored at all. Having a child who most likely has Aspergers, I fully understand the importance of learning social skills and how detrimental it is to not have them. That is one of the major impairments of children on the spectrum.
My statement about that was coming from a discussion that I had with my mother. She was an aid in a Special Ed class for many years, and said that the education aspect was practically not existent because they had to work on the basic skills social skills with the children. Since it WAS the most important thing with them, for them to learn the basics of life, basic functioning skills. These were middle school children who she said didn't even know how to count money, or read yet. They had been pushed aside with no one wanting to deal with them, until they eventually ended up in the special ed class. As I said though, this has been years ago, about 15 years ago, and I'm sure the special education classes have come further along.

My point to that though was really only in regards to my son, who while he desperately needs social skills, equally needs the education side of things. He is high functioning enough that he can learn in mainstream, with the right support. For many high functioning children on the spectrum, it can be extremely beneficial to keep them mainstreamed, as they tend to mimic and can benefit greatly from having a buddy system set up with a NT child.

I was just trying to say that the special education classes are not always the best answer for every child that may be disruptive. For some it is though. If it's not though, then what do you do? They still deserve an education.

On the other hand, a child having to wait for a minute before the teacher can start a lesson because of a child acting out, is not going to stop them from getting an adequate education. Even though it may be annoying.

Talking is not the only disruptive behavior. When it becomes a safety concern I have a real issue with that. I have had students suddenly begin to throw objects, hurt other children, and lastly punch me. In these cases, it is hard to want a child like this in your class, especially when I had one threaten to kill other kids. I reported all these things to administrators and nothing was done. I have also had a boy pee on other students in the bathroom when he would get upset. This is much more than a minute. By the way it is rarely a minute. I have had students that cause major disruptions 25-50% of the class, which effects others. I try my best to work with these kids, and help them. However, I feel that it is very unfair to those that desire to learn.

Talking is not the only disruptive behavior. When it becomes a safety concern I have a real issue with that. I have had students suddenly begin to throw objects, hurt other children, and lastly punch me. In these cases, it is hard to want a child like this in your class, especially when I had one threaten to kill other kids. I reported all these things to administrators and nothing was done. I have also had a boy pee on other students in the bathroom when he would get upset. This is much more than a minute. By the way it is rarely a minute. I have had students that cause major disruptions 25-50% of the class, which effects others. I try my best to work with these kids, and help them. However, I feel that it is very unfair to those that desire to learn.:rolleyes: I did not in any way suggest that talking is the only disruptive behavior, nor am I naive enough to think that is the only way kids act out:eyebrow: . I was speaking in regards to the original posters example of what their child said was going on in her class.

In your examples, I would totally agree that that level of disruption would interfere with the class to the point of the others not getting an adequate education and they should be removed to another area, or have an aid the knows how to affectively deal with them.

"Originally Posted by ladym
On the other hand, a child having to wait for a minute before the teacher can start a lesson because of a child acting out, is not going to stop them from getting an adequate education. Even though it may be annoying. "

Don't want to go round and round on this, but I completely dissagree. First of all, it is not usually a minute. Secondly, it begins to affect my childs behavior. Why even try to sit down in a timely manner if she will just have to wait for everyone else.

"Originally Posted by ladym
On the other hand, a child having to wait for a minute before the teacher can start a lesson because of a child acting out, is not going to stop them from getting an adequate education. Even though it may be annoying. "

Don't want to go round and round on this, but I completely dissagree. First of all, it is not usually a minute. Secondly, it begins to affect my childs behavior. Why even try to sit down in a timely manner if she will just have to wait for everyone else.

Well I don't know the children in your daughters class, so maybe it IS more then a minute. I can only say that for my son, who does need some reminders, that it DOESN'T take more then a minute. The teacher gives him a reminder, and he settles down.
If a child in a wheelchair took an extra minute to get to their desk before the teacher could begin a lesson, would you have the same problems with that, and feel they should be moved out of the class? In my opinion, it is not any different, and I don't think in either case the child should be removed to a different school, or special ed class.

I don't mind going round and round, I have a right to my opinion, even if no one agrees:D . I expect to have a bit of a different view being that I have one who is a bit disruptive, and one that is the kind of student every teacher hopes for, that I don't feel is getting as rich of an education as she could be getting. I have a two sided view of things, so I expect my opinion may be different then some, and that's fine. Different doesn't equal wrong;) .

Sometimes I don't articulate well, and realize after a private conversation with someone in this thread that I may have sounded like I expect teachers to just deal with whatever comes their way. That is NOT my opinion. I meant minor disruptions that may take a little extra time, attention, and patience, but still allow everyone in the class (including the disruptive one) to get an adequate eduction. When someone is so disruptive that the environment is no longer one that children can get an adequate education, then I have a different opinion, and feel the children should be removed from the class, or a qualified aid should try to help the child (if that would work).
There was a child in my sons class last year that was over turning desks and calling the teacher a b****. Trust me, I was not happy when my own disruptive child, who mimics everything (Aspergers as the suspect reason why) came home with a new word in his vocabulary to yell out any time he was mad:mad: . I did not feel like those were the kind of disruptions that anyone should have to deal with because it really did affect the children getting an adequate education.

I specifically said in that sentence that is getting picked apart "a child having to wait for a MINUTE". I didn't say longer then a minute, I said a minute. So it turning out to be longer then a minute is irrelevant to that comment, because I really was only speaking about those minute cases.

In reading over your original post again though, I see that the time you are speaking of seems to be a great deal of time, and I misinterpreted the degree to which you meant. So my reference to your daughter only having to wait a minute, was presumptuous and I apologize for that.
I shouldn't try to respond to posts after my meds wear off, I miss the fine details sometimes. ;)

THis seems to be a hot topic. I notice that none of the respondents are from the South. Down here, ther are NO special Ed classes anymore. All of the children are mainstreamed, from the best to the worst, the most physically able to the most physically disabled. My daughter has a child in her class that has cerebral palsy and is in a wheelchair. This child has an aide that comes to school with her but it's not paid for the by department of education, her parents pay for it. They've been told that the "funds just aren't available to justify that kind of expense". There is more money availavle for vocational rehab programs but those don't usually apply to middle school children. My daughter is 11 and ADHD, my son is 8 and also ADHD, and I have a 15 year old son with inattentive ADD. My daughter's teacher has 27 students in her class, some of whom can't read at a 2nd grade level and she teaches sixth grade. She called me the other night and we had a long conversation about a number of things. The schools here are insisting that all papers turned in are written in cursive handwriting, printing is not allowed, even though some students can't write in cursive. She mentioned that she had been looking for some of those handwriting sheets that they use for younger children to teach them cursive handwriting. I told her where she could download some, since the school was NOT going to provide them.

What concerns me is this: Aides for students, sensory rooms, and some of the other things I've seen mentioned here are all wonderful ideas, but where does the money come from? Where I live, not only do we have oneof the worst school systems in the country (ranked 49th on the national scale), but there is just no money available for some of this stuff. I picked up school supplies for three different children this year from lists that were sent out before the school year began, and then I recieved additional school supply lists from their teachers. All told, I've spent over $300.00 on school supplies alone for the kids. This does not include school clothes, backpacks, or the "additional supplies" that are requested, such as hand sanitizer, paper towels, toilet paper, copy paper, tissues, Lysol, Plug-in refills, baby wipes, zip-loc bags, band-aids, 409 cleaning spray, construction paper, and I could go on. There is also a note on the supply list that as these supplies are used, additional requests will be sent on the weekly newsletter! Am I the only one that doesn't remember having to buy all this stuff when I went to school? I remember having to get paper and folders and pencils and that sort of thing but nothing about hand sanitizer and toilet paper. I am glad that I give my kids their medicine before school and that they can take a long-acting one because at my kid's schools, they don't have a nurse on campus. They can't take temperatures or administer any medications, aspirin, etc., even if the parent gives permission. So how is a school system like this going to provide an aide for a single student? We are fortunate that we were able to purchase all of the supplies on the list (within reason - we didn't purchase the plug-in refills and some of the other more ridiculous items) but I have to wonder what happens to those that literally can't afford to purchase all of that? I mean, we laid out a chunk of money, and if the school systems had decided to adopt uniforms this year, it would have been more. Wat happens to those kids? Am I the only one that thinks it is WRONG for the parents to have to supply toilet paper for their kids to use at school? (I asked, that is what it's for, or I wouldn't ha ve bought it) With problems like this in a school system, how much can you expect the school to do for a child that simply needs a little more attention?

I agree with you wildfire, completely. The schools don't have money. I think the aids would be "ideal", but I don't think we will see it in this lifetime, if ever, as the norm. They are available in our district, but there are very few of them, and hard to get.
There are schools in my state for Autistic children that do have sensory rooms for children to use as needed, but they are schools set up specifically for Autistic children. I would love to have this option for my son, but the closest one to us is 1 1/2 hours away. It would be great to see more schools like this around, to see more money coming into schools in general for just the basics, not to mention the rest.
That was some of my point really. All these things would be ideal, but they aren't available in most area's, so what DO we DO? When there are no better options, then what? All children need an education, disruptive or not, and there just aren't any great solutions out there, so what do you do? What do parents do, what do teachers do? You can't just throw them out and throw your hands up in the air, or they will sit in our prisons and institutions.
I guess that was my point to my never ending novels, lol:p .


Oh and no, I know we never needed to bring these things when we went to school. We have to buy the same things here too, hand wipes, disinfectant wipes, tissue, hand sanitizer, monthly snacks, pencils, paper, binders, scissors, glue sticks, crayons, markers, colored pencils, etc. I don't mind so much because I know they need it, but boy it sure can be costly. I too worry about the families that can't afford it. I know teachers here who tend to pick up the slack, and that's just not fair either. They shouldn't be having to pay out of their pockets for supplies.