Hi,

I'm delurking because if I don't, the frustration I feel on a daily basis is going to rupture my brain! I'm noticing there aren't enough frustration "smilies" listed in the box next to this window I'm typing in, but that's okay, because I'm going to do my full delurk (complete with hair pulling and AAAAARRRRGGGH!!!!s) later.;)

I am a 35-year-old woman married to a man with ADHD for 6.5 years. We have two children, ages six and two. We were together for about a year and a half before we got pregnant with the first one, and we were engaged by that point. Yeah, I know....hindsight is 20/20.

Leaving out a lot of the story, I pushed him to get a diagnosis. He did, and has spent the subsequent five years or so vacillating between acceptance and denial. That will be the subject of my next delurking post...

Okay, so here's what I want to talk about: Common Sense, and The Lack Thereof. Now, I know that ADHD is actually on the Autism Continuum, right above Asperger's Syndrom (which is such high-functioning autism that many people never get diagnosed, though everyone knows they're "eccentric."). I've worked closely with children with autism for years, and it also just so happens that my husband's sister has autism. It also just so happens that pretty much every male member of his father's side of the family has some form of undiagnosed ADHD or Asperger's, which I find interesting.

Based on my experience, I think ADHD is on the autism continuum for one because many of the social deficits are the same (I know they aren't necessarily "deficits" in all situations, but in social situations many of them are), and many of the methods used to help teach skills to people with autism and Asperger's also work well with people with ADHD.

Still, with all my experience in the "field," I still find myself stunned by what my husband doesn't know. I'm not just talking about things I JUST TOLD HIM that he SOMEHOW FORGOT....I'm talking about common sense stuff that he should have picked up when he was about eight.

Examples:

Today I discovered that my husband did not, in fact, know how to look for library books using a list. Granted, this may seem like a specialized skill. But he always seems to do things the least easy way, almost like he is trying to mimic an action he doesn't really understand.

So we had overdue library books. I'll spare you the two-hour tribunal preceding that statement. My husband disregarded practicality and direct requests and hurriedly gathered half the books and raced to the library to return them. When he got back, I explained that returning the books wasn't as helpful without returning ALL of them (since the point was to prevent fines from accumulating further. All had been discussed in the two-hour tribunal the previous night.) So he started making stabs to find them, and I reminded him that he could just print out the list from the library website so he would know how many books were still missing, and what books they were.

So he printed out the list, put it on the arm of the couch, and continued a disorganized search around the living room. I finally stopped him when I realized that he was PICKING UP EVERY BOOK HE FOUND and looking inside the book for evidence that it might be a library book. Okay, we have tons of books in our house--both children's books and adult. Looking for ten library books using that method could take ALL FREAKIN' DAY!

I actually had to explain to him that the LIST was so you could see the TITLES of the books missing, so then when you are looking, you can just look at the title of the book, because THEY PUT THE TITLE RIGHT ON THE COVER.

Good lord. Using my innovative method, he found the missing books in about five minutes.

MORE EXAMPLES:

He didn't know how to use a knife when eating until after we were living together. He would use the knife to hold the food still, and pull at the meat with the FORK. He never used the knife to actually cut the meat until I asked him why he did that one day, and when it became clear that it was because he had no idea why one would need a KNIFE, particularly, then I showed him how to cut his meat. He was in his late twenties.

There are a lot of table manners issues. This may be more of an issue of parents who didn't bother to teach table manners, I don't know. But a lot of the things he does FEEL like he's doing them because that's how he started doing them when he was six, and he hasn't NOTICED that grownups do it differently. Like when he drinks anything, he gulps it down nonstop, only taking brief breaks to loudly gasp for air before diving back in. I mention it because it FEELS like the same way I remember drinking when I was a little kid and you'd run inside in the middle of a game to get a quick drink of water, then you'd dash back outside. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't just feel like hey, I've got a rough-around-the-edges husband, if that makes sense.

Other things...He also didn't know how to open a potato chip bag until one of his female friends showed him in college. He thought you HAD to open it the same way all little kids in elemetary school do: you pop the bag, exploding chips all over the room, and rendering the bag useless. He really had no idea there was any other way to do it.

I'm just wondering if Lack of Common Sense is as common a symptom of ADHD as some of the other hallmarks, and what you all have noticed about it...

Thanks for listening...

Chamomile

I'm just wondering if Lack of Common Sense is as common a symptom of ADHD as some of the other hallmarks, and what you all have noticed about it...

ummm - no. i have more than my fair share of common sense, as a matter of fact, i am good at finding the easier way of doing things sometimes.

welcome to the forums. i hope you find information on dealing with your hubby here. sounds like he is missing some childhodd learning....

most of us learned how to do things like open bags, use a knife and fork and such from parents. the list to retrieve library books is a bit trickier. i am the one with add, yet i am the one who uses the library's website to order books, and see what is still out and needs returning....

as for other smilies, see here (http://cellar.org/misc.php?do=showsmilies). (thanx radd) you can copy and paste.

I think that you would benefit a lot if you educated yourself in the facts.

While a couple of researchers have attempted to link ADHD to autism, the idea is not widely accepted.

ADHD is not in the autism spectrum.

The thing that ADHD and autism clearly do have in common is that some people who have autism also have ADHD.

Sometimes people who have aspergers syndrome are mistakenly diagnosed as having ADHD, or some other disorder.

Usually, autism has an in-your-face quality that is unmistakable. But in a very few cases, it can be hard to tell....

If you think your hubby is a little autistic, you may wish to read this thread:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28574

You might also ask your hubby to read it and see what he thinks. IF he is an aspie, he will probasbly be able to tell you faster than anyone.

In general, ADHD is treatable with medications, and autism really isn't considered treatable in the sense that one would hope to take medication and seen an imporvement in symptoms. Autism does often respond to training and varoius therapies that are aimed at helping autistics cope and function in a world made for "normal" people.

You hubbys "lack of common sense" is hardly that. He is funcioning exactly as a guy with adhd should. He is a bit scatterd, and has difficulty controlling his attention. He tends to miss some info along the way, so his cognitive processes do no work like other people, but they do work. Also, he probably has a visual style of learning, and possibly thinks most effectively in pictures. At the same time , when you have adhd, it means that you have a visual-spatial processing defecit. This means that it can take a while to evaluate our surroundings. As a result we tend to take in the big picture first and fill in the details as we go. We are often holsitic in style and definitely don't need to do things sequentially, step-by-step like so-called "normal" people have to do. In fact, we have a hard time doing it your way. We are better off doing it our way (which is fare more efficient anyway), but sometimes we need medication to help us with our hyperness and attention problems... a little understanding from those around us would be helpful too.

If you want to be happy, don't try to fix your "broken" hubby. He is not broken. He is just different, and you really need to understand that, and take it to heart.

ME :D

Hi,

I'm delurking because if I don't, the frustration I feel on a daily basis is going to rupture my brain! I'm noticing there aren't enough frustration "smilies" listed in the box next to this window I'm typing in, but that's okay, because I'm going to do my full delurk (complete with hair pulling and AAAAARRRRGGGH!!!!s) later.;)

I am a 35-year-old woman married to a man with ADHD for 6.5 years. We have two children, ages six and two. We were together for about a year and a half before we got pregnant with the first one, and we were engaged by that point. Yeah, I know....hindsight is 20/20.

Leaving out a lot of the story, I pushed him to get a diagnosis. He did, and has spent the subsequent five years or so vacillating between acceptance and denial. That will be the subject of my next delurking post...

Okay, so here's what I want to talk about: Common Sense, and The Lack Thereof. Now, I know that ADHD is actually on the Autism Continuum, right above Asperger's Syndrom (which is such high-functioning autism that many people never get diagnosed, though everyone knows they're "eccentric."). I've worked closely with children with autism for years, and it also just so happens that my husband's sister has autism. It also just so happens that pretty much every male member of his father's side of the family has some form of undiagnosed ADHD or Asperger's, which I find interesting.

Based on my experience, I think ADHD is on the autism continuum for one because many of the social deficits are the same (I know they aren't necessarily "deficits" in all situations, but in social situations many of them are), and many of the methods used to help teach skills to people with autism and Asperger's also work well with people with ADHD.

Still, with all my experience in the "field," I still find myself stunned by what my husband doesn't know. I'm not just talking about things I JUST TOLD HIM that he SOMEHOW FORGOT....I'm talking about common sense stuff that he should have picked up when he was about eight.

Examples:

Today I discovered that my husband did not, in fact, know how to look for library books using a list. Granted, this may seem like a specialized skill. But he always seems to do things the least easy way, almost like he is trying to mimic an action he doesn't really understand.

So we had overdue library books. I'll spare you the two-hour tribunal preceding that statement. My husband disregarded practicality and direct requests and hurriedly gathered half the books and raced to the library to return them. When he got back, I explained that returning the books wasn't as helpful without returning ALL of them (since the point was to prevent fines from accumulating further. All had been discussed in the two-hour tribunal the previous night.) So he started making stabs to find them, and I reminded him that he could just print out the list from the library website so he would know how many books were still missing, and what books they were.

So he printed out the list, put it on the arm of the couch, and continued a disorganized search around the living room. I finally stopped him when I realized that he was PICKING UP EVERY BOOK HE FOUND and looking inside the book for evidence that it might be a library book. Okay, we have tons of books in our house--both children's books and adult. Looking for ten library books using that method could take ALL FREAKIN' DAY!

I actually had to explain to him that the LIST was so you could see the TITLES of the books missing, so then when you are looking, you can just look at the title of the book, because THEY PUT THE TITLE RIGHT ON THE COVER.

Good lord. Using my innovative method, he found the missing books in about five minutes.

MORE EXAMPLES:

He didn't know how to use a knife when eating until after we were living together. He would use the knife to hold the food still, and pull at the meat with the FORK. He never used the knife to actually cut the meat until I asked him why he did that one day, and when it became clear that it was because he had no idea why one would need a KNIFE, particularly, then I showed him how to cut his meat. He was in his late twenties.

There are a lot of table manners issues. This may be more of an issue of parents who didn't bother to teach table manners, I don't know. But a lot of the things he does FEEL like he's doing them because that's how he started doing them when he was six, and he hasn't NOTICED that grownups do it differently. Like when he drinks anything, he gulps it down nonstop, only taking brief breaks to loudly gasp for air before diving back in. I mention it because it FEELS like the same way I remember drinking when I was a little kid and you'd run inside in the middle of a game to get a quick drink of water, then you'd dash back outside. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't just feel like hey, I've got a rough-around-the-edges husband, if that makes sense.

Other things...He also didn't know how to open a potato chip bag until one of his female friends showed him in college. He thought you HAD to open it the same way all little kids in elemetary school do: you pop the bag, exploding chips all over the room, and rendering the bag useless. He really had no idea there was any other way to do it.

I'm just wondering if Lack of Common Sense is as common a symptom of ADHD as some of the other hallmarks, and what you all have noticed about it...

Thanks for listening...

Chamomile

Your husband sounds exactly like my son, who, coincidentally, is a six-yr-old. lol :D

i can understand how frustrated you must be feeling. i really can. i'm sure you're as patient and as understanding as you can be. it's just that sometimes, you reach a breaking point. so, you came here. i think it's good that you're looking for support and understanding. welcome.

now, more about my son, it might be relevant.... try looking up (either here or googling) "dyspraxia" and "motor planning" (they are the same thing). what makes me think of dyspaxia is: the way he misuses a fork and knife (being a "messy eater" is common among those with dyspraxia), the opening of the chip bag, the fact that, once he was shown a better way to do it he could do it fine (so, there's hope. yeah! :) ). my guess is that he doesn't always remember though. or, can't translate the activity into a new setting easily. for instance, he may now know how to open the chip bag, but, still fights with unwrapping a granola bar.

many children learn by watching others or practicing step-by-step. they can break down a task that may have many steps in it, all by themselves, or, with a bit of guidance. like someone helping them with the major steps. for instance, learning to zip your coat. many kids might need help at first, and verbal instructions like, "push the zipper all the way down. now, slide the other end in here. good. hold the bottom of your jacket while you pull up the slide. there you go! :) " or, you show them and then they try it themselves. i've seen kids learn to do this in a day. they practice a few times, then, you rarely have to zip them up again.

it still takes my son several tries to get his zipper and he has to concentrate really hard to get it. if he gets interrupted or jossled on one of the steps, he has to start over at the beginning.

another example, putting on his buckle in the car. most kids watch mom or dad do it for 2-3 years. then, they give it a go themselves until they figure it out on their own. you might have to show them how at first, but, basic intructions suffice ("push this bit into here until you hear it click.") my son needed very specific step-by-step instructions. i needed to break down each individual step for him and practice over and over and over. "reach up and grab the strap. pull it down toward your belly button. good! now, keep holding on with this hand while you grab the buckle with this hand." we weren't even close to buckling yet, and just those first few steps took *months*. it was frustrating for me and hard to understand why this just wasn't clicking (pardon the pun ;) ), but, he was trying so hard. and was so proud of himself when he got it right. anyway, i can only imagine how much more frustrated *he* must have felt. as a matter of fact, "i fwus-twa-ted" was one of his first sentences.

some kids with dyspraxia can learn to ride a bike with lots of practice. but, when they outgrow the old bike, they have to learn how to ride bike again from scratch. the skills you think would transfer (from the old bike to the new bike) just don't.

what was going on for my son made a lot more sense after i read about dyspraxia and saw that getting mad at him for something he had no control over wasn't fair to him or me. it'd be like getting mad at a blind person for not being able to help you read a road map.

i understand your frustration. i hope that perhaps having some insight into what might be going on helps alleviate some of it.

good luck and again, welcome.

Pembroke....thanks for your input. It's true that he ordinarily would have either been TAUGHT these things, or PICKED THEM UP....that's why it's so noticeable when he shows a lack of common sense. He actually told me about the potato chip bag thing, which is a great joke with his college friend nowadays. I'm just noticing so many areas in which he lack common sense that I'm really wondering where it's coming from. Since he lacks a lot of social cues as well (found in both ADHD and autism, as I mentioned)...like being able to read expressions, or tone, or body language, then I wondered if they all fit under the same category.


SPEEDO....ummmm......I was under the impression that this was the NON-ADDer forum, a place where people living with people with ADHD can come to vent, ask questions of other people, and get support. I believe that is what I did. I wasn't attacking you personally, and was only asking for input about a specific question. I don't believe I ever mentioned trying to "fix" anyone, and that kind of non-related, unprovoked counterattack was actually what I thought I could come here to escape from. It is pretty unhelpful to hear the same kind of stuff you hear every single day, when you come to a support forum for people LIVING with people with ADHD to find SUPPORT and UNDERSTANDING about the frustrations of living with said people.

If hearing people discuss what frustrates them about their ADHD spouses bothers you, I don't think you HAVE to read it. That's why it's a separate forum from the rest of the site....

WHEEZIE....Thank you for actually listening to the point of what I was writing about. That's interesting about the dyspraxia...In working with kids with ADHD (it was all around the same time...working with kids in SpEd classrooms), something I noticed was that they (especially the boys, it seemed), often seemed "clumsy", tripping a lot, more difficulty with bikes and skates, dropped things, crashed into furniture more frequently. I wonder if dyspraxia is found alongside ADHD as well, and I wonder if there are more subtle forms taht could make some of my husband's behaviors which seem like disorganization or poor planning (like the library thing), be more likely an inability to sequence the steps or events. Could the PHYSICAL difficulties be mirrored in how he THINKS?? Hmmmmm.....I'm just musing out loud here. I'm going to go look that up--it could lead to a whole new perspective on the issues going on around here. Thanks!

Chamomile

Speedo...

I just re-read my original post, and regardless of whether or not ADHD IS on the autism continuum, the whole point of me even mentioning the two is that, as you said, and as I said, they share many similar traits. One of the traits of autism is a lack of common sense. I am trying to get a sense of whether or not that has been found in other people with ADHD. My husband has a diagnosis of ADHD, and he has a lack of common sense, and this is why I'm asking.

The rest of my point is that doing it my husband's way usually isn't more efficient---that's what leads to problems. If you have 15 minutes to leave and try to pick up and flip through every single book in the house in order to find ten books, that is inefficient, and in our house, that means the job gets left undone, because he runs out of time. When he tried looking for the specific books missing, he found them in five minutes.

Also, much of the Life Skills training for people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's focuses on pointing out social cues and sequences of events that seem like common sense to typical people, but are not even noticed by people with autism. My life with my husband involves a lot of this. In my work with kids with Asperger's, we once had to teach a high school boy how to wait in line for lunch. He was very bright, but had no idea that there were social rules that needed to be followed. We taught him to make conversation with people around him while waiting in line by suggesting topics, one of which was clothes. The next day in line he asked the girl in front of him about her bra. He really wasn't being rude or anything...he was following the sequence of events set out without really understanding the REASONS behind the rules. We had to tell him he could talk about SHOES ONLY.

My husband understands that you can't talk to a strange girl about her bra without getting into trouble, but he doesn't understand what you can and can't say during a meeting with your boss. He will walk away thinking someone or something is a jerk when in fact, his own actions led to a particular situation and response. I then have to suggest that he ask other people present to describe honestly what happened. Only then will he start to realize that maybe HE was the big jerk. The real problems come when I am often on the receiving end of that lack of comprehension about the social dynamic.

I'm not explaining it well.....he doesn't understand when he's dominating a conversation. He doesn't understand when people want him to leave--he misses all the subtle cues that signal the end of an interaction. He had no idea that it was rude to take the last piece of anything---he almost made our daughter's five-year-old friend cry by accepting the last piece of watermelon she offered to her (because her mother was trying to teach HER that it was rude to just take the last piece of anything.) Usually in that case all the grownups are aware of the subtleties of the situation and will play their roles by refusing the fruit so she can have it after all. Instead, he was completely unaware of what everyone else was aware of, and grabbed it and ate it. She was heartbroken, and her mother felt terrible that she made her daughter offer it, because she really wanted her to have it. (we haven't been contacted by them since then, because of that and other social faux pas he committed during the outing.)

These are all, to me, a lack of common sense which I recognize from interacting with both my ADHD husband AND my HFautistic sister-in-law.
And I'm still wondering where it's coming from...

Impulsivity is not a lack of common sense. Running around trying to find things the hard way is impulsive. Impulsivity is a symptom of ADHD.

People with ADHD "lose" things by putting them down somewhere then getting distracted and forgetting where they put something. As we age, even people without ADHD are known to do this. :D

Many students in SPED have co-morbid conditions along with their ADHD. Lots of ADHD students get through school without being in SPED.

Knowledge is power.

Wow, this is very frustrating.

EVERYBODY: I am not trying to argue that ADHD is or isn't AUTISM. I am merely trying to compare the two at the overlap point where the two share many similar traits. This fact is available if you just type in the words ADHD and Autism into Google.

I am not trying to argue that all SpEd kids have ADHD. I merely mentioned my work to illustrate that I am actually directly familiar with the issues that people with ADHD have to deal with, and that I, in addition to living with a man with ADHD, also have worked with kids with ADHD. You can have an IEP with ADHD and no other conditions.

I am not talking about Impulsivity. I am not talking about forgetting where he put something. I am talking about Lack of Common Sense. The way he was looking for books wasn't impulsive----the part that is of most importance to me right now was the part where he was hunting through each and every book lying around the house looking for clues that it might be a library book, instead of checking the TITLE or the LIST he had just printed out. I understand his impulsivity. This is what made him make the initial error of not finding all the books in the first place: he was on his way out, and had the impulsive thought that he could return the books too, grabbed the first books he found, and left.

Not knowing how to cut your food, or how to behave in social situations where most people do, not knowing how to operate common things in the environment, this is lack of common sense to me.

I never thought about the possibility that I might have Ausperger's instead of, or along with, AD/HD (combined type), but reading through the link supplied by Pembroke was eyeopening. In one or two areas I could see quite a bit of overlap.

My thought is that apparently your husband's family also has AD/HD and/or Ausperger's and therefore it was hard for them to give basic social structure to their children because they didn't understand basic social structure themselves.

I raised one daughter and am actively involved in raising my two grandchildren, and since realizing about 3 years ago that I have AD/HD I can see that in areas where I do well I can also teach. But in areas where I really struggle I cannot teach, and get extremely frustrated trying to do so. Basic manners were drilled into me and were passed on to the children. But trying to cook is very difficult for me - especially when trying to cook more than one thing at a time - and having someone in the kitchen with me asking questions provokes great frustration and often rage.

So it could be that your husband's family struggled with a lot of things that most people take for granted, and were not able to teach those things to their children, eh?

hey cham,

you're welcome. sorry for the frustration here. it's a hard subject to communicate about. i think you all are closer than you think, though. what you're calling "lack of common sense" others call "poor impulse control." the difference, as i see it, is that the former describes the negative behaviour (talking about others being jerks and not seeing your own culpability) the latter describes *why* this behaviour occurs.

i think asperbergers and adhd may look similar on the outside, but, inside social cues are being processed differently. an aspie adult might not realize they've commited a social faux pas whereas an ADHD adult will wonder, sometimes aloud, i don't think i should have said that out loud .... they might be reading the reaction of the group. that's what i do anyway ...

funny story ... :) i was at a christmas party and the hostess mentioned, in response to an inquiry from another guest, that the beautiful dishes were given to her by her mother. she added, "my mother painted her dining room a different shade of green, so, these dishes no longer matched her room decor so she didn't want them anymore." and i asked the thought that popped immediately into my head, "is that normal?" :D lol the stunned and uncomfortable silence in the room cued me into the fact that i shouldn't have said that out loud. luckily, i'm good at self-deprecating humour, i quickly said, "did i say that out loud? oops." and came up with some little quip about the dangers of giving me a glass of wine.

anyway, you're observations about poor planning with regards to the library books incident is classic dyspraxia, in my observation. ADHD and dyspraxia do have some relationship. i can't remember how it goes. a positive coorelation exists, i think, in that, those with ADHD are more likely to exhibit dyspraxia.... something like that.

anyway, i'm curious to read what you learn about dyspraxia and how it fits. even more curious to read if you try any of the coping mechanisms and whether you find something you can apply to daily living. it might help me with my son to be able to talk with someone else who is also on the outside, looking in, trying to find ways to help.

take care,

wheezie

What you are describing does sound very autistic. You should talk to him about getting a diagnosis. Has he ever had an evaluation done ?


ME :D


Speedo...

I just re-read my original post, and regardless of whether or not ADHD IS on the autism continuum, the whole point of me even mentioning the two is that, as you said, and as I said, they share many similar traits. One of the traits of autism is a lack of common sense. I am trying to get a sense of whether or not that has been found in other people with ADHD. My husband has a diagnosis of ADHD, and he has a lack of common sense, and this is why I'm asking.

The rest of my point is that doing it my husband's way usually isn't more efficient---that's what leads to problems. If you have 15 minutes to leave and try to pick up and flip through every single book in the house in order to find ten books, that is inefficient, and in our house, that means the job gets left undone, because he runs out of time. When he tried looking for the specific books missing, he found them in five minutes.

Also, much of the Life Skills training for people with high-functioning autism and Asperger's focuses on pointing out social cues and sequences of events that seem like common sense to typical people, but are not even noticed by people with autism. My life with my husband involves a lot of this. In my work with kids with Asperger's, we once had to teach a high school boy how to wait in line for lunch. He was very bright, but had no idea that there were social rules that needed to be followed. We taught him to make conversation with people around him while waiting in line by suggesting topics, one of which was clothes. The next day in line he asked the girl in front of him about her bra. He really wasn't being rude or anything...he was following the sequence of events set out without really understanding the REASONS behind the rules. We had to tell him he could talk about SHOES ONLY.

My husband understands that you can't talk to a strange girl about her bra without getting into trouble, but he doesn't understand what you can and can't say during a meeting with your boss. He will walk away thinking someone or something is a jerk when in fact, his own actions led to a particular situation and response. I then have to suggest that he ask other people present to describe honestly what happened. Only then will he start to realize that maybe HE was the big jerk. The real problems come when I am often on the receiving end of that lack of comprehension about the social dynamic.

I'm not explaining it well.....he doesn't understand when he's dominating a conversation. He doesn't understand when people want him to leave--he misses all the subtle cues that signal the end of an interaction. He had no idea that it was rude to take the last piece of anything---he almost made our daughter's five-year-old friend cry by accepting the last piece of watermelon she offered to her (because her mother was trying to teach HER that it was rude to just take the last piece of anything.) Usually in that case all the grownups are aware of the subtleties of the situation and will play their roles by refusing the fruit so she can have it after all. Instead, he was completely unaware of what everyone else was aware of, and grabbed it and ate it. She was heartbroken, and her mother felt terrible that she made her daughter offer it, because she really wanted her to have it. (we haven't been contacted by them since then, because of that and other social faux pas he committed during the outing.)

These are all, to me, a lack of common sense which I recognize from interacting with both my ADHD husband AND my HFautistic sister-in-law.
And I'm still wondering where it's coming from...

chamomile:

yes, you are correct. this is your corner to vent. one other thing that adders tend to do is see everything as a personal attack...:rolleyes: don't take it personally. my husband says: reach up to your shoulder and wipe the chip off of it. that's when i know i am taking things waaaayy too personally.

and we can all choose to ignore those posts that irritate.

hang in there. maybe you can find a coach for hubby, who can help take some of the pressure off of you.

Ha.

I was right in the middle of typing up a post on this and read your response when I was previewing mine, Wheezie.

what you're calling "lack of common sense" others call "poor impulse control."
That's pretty much what I was going to say. Some of the stuff Chamomile described fell under "lack of proper social/enviromental skills" (at least by my definition) not "common sense". But when I applied what Chamomile's definition of common sense was and re-read the thread, I could see where she was coming from with it.

Wow, this is very frustrating.

EVERYBODY: I am not trying to argue that ADHD is or isn't AUTISM. I am merely trying to compare the two at the overlap point where the two share many similar traits. This fact is available if you just type in the words ADHD and Autism into Google.

I am not trying to argue that all SpEd kids have ADHD. I merely mentioned my work to illustrate that I am actually directly familiar with the issues that people with ADHD have to deal with, and that I, in addition to living with a man with ADHD, also have worked with kids with ADHD. You can have an IEP with ADHD and no other conditions.I'm sorry you are getting frustrated trying to explain things. Chamomile, you are new to the forums and as you read more of the posts and get to know members, you will discover that many people here work with people with ADHD, Autism Spectrum and Asperger Syndrome. You are in good company.

Please vent away. We've had this discussion many times before about wishing we could have just this little corner of the website to ourselves, but it doesn't work. There's a private forum, but nobody uses it. In any case, I think advice to find out as much as you can is good. Besides the books, etc., just reading the threads on the rest of the board can be astonishing. A few months back, there was a thread about how ADD people were so much smarter than the rest of us (I didn't comment, just laughed). About a year ago, there was a thread on "adult men" I think about why they eat the last piece of cake -- they talked about seeing something they wanted and knowing that someone else might want it too, and then just saying to hell with it, I'm going to have it/do it/drink it/etc. There are all kinds of coping devices for those who live with this. I tell my DH loudly and several times if I don't want him to eat something in the refrigerator. In the case of the library books, you might have said: if you'll take the overdue books back, I'll gather them up (since you're obviously better at that). My DH talks with his mouth full -- it seems because he's so excited about what he's saying that he forgets to swallow. Maybe I'm way off base, but I think the stuff about whether it's autism or ADD or whatever doesn't matter; it's how you are frustrated and how you want to be less frustrated. You have small children; ADD spouses often say their husband is like having another child. When you married, you were thinking about a partnership, perhaps, but it seems more one-sided than that. We've gotten into long discussions about how we shouldn't have to take care of the ADD person, but in truth, if you want life to go smoother, you learn about Post-it notes, various reminders, alarm clocks, etc. -- many of which, of course, they can do themselves. You work out a deal for who cooks and cleans up the kitchen, drives the kids. Still, there remains the many frustrations. I'm trying to run a business from home and my guy can't remember to tell me when a client calls! I'm pretty loose on most things -- he's taken two months to paint the bedroom and I don't care because I don't have to see it except for a few moments at night. Most projects are that way. As long as I have some places in the house that are clean and neat, I'm cool. It's a BIG "disorder" or whatever you call it and affects so many things. My guy can't thank me or tell me he appreciates things I do, etc. when I believe that helps "grease" a relationship. He is finally seeing a counselor weekly -- has your husband tried that.
good luck to you.....

My husband understands that you can't talk to a strange girl about her bra without getting into trouble, but he doesn't understand what you can and can't say during a meeting with your boss. He will walk away thinking someone or something is a jerk when in fact, his own actions led to a particular situation and response.
My sister does the same thing! I never though I would meet someone with the same problem!

I did not read this thread alll the way through but I feel as though I must input.

People with ADHD have alot of common sense, in fact sometimes we end up being leaders and helping others out of tight situations with our quick thinking skills BUT We do tend to lack in this sometimes.

Like I forget thing VERY easily. I fmy mother reminds me to take my pill a hundred times over I STILL forget to take them. I forget the bring our dogs into the house, I forget to feeed the cats, I forget to clean the dishes, I forgett where i put my glasses, Sometimes I even forget where I am and what I am doing there! In the middle of the halls at school I stop and I'm like "What colass do I have next?" when ten seconds ago I was going over my scedual! It's so odd.

I speak for All ADHDers when I say we doo have our fair share of messups and mistakes but we make up for it most of the time right?

Please forgive me if I ramble; my meds have not quite kicked in yet :o and I am a severe case. I hope to be helpful....

I first off want to offer my "Pudding Theory" (copywrite Crazy~Feet @ ADDF, permission to repost without credit is explicitly denied) :D Speedo and I are in agreement on this one. I say the brain and its charted areas are really on some crucial level just pudding. There is no "normal" just degrees of "whatever". So your comparison between ADHD and AS becomes apt when you look at my silly little theory.

Take me for example ( and take my pudding, please? ::rimshot:: )--I have severe ADHD predominantly Inattentive type, Bi-Polar Disorder II and Sensory Integration Dysfunction (which is autistic in nature). My symptomatology overlaps a LOT!! Point is this: after uncovering all of this, I no longer care why or where I fall on any spectrum as long as I can address the issues at hand.

In short, I do not need to know the chemical process by which ingredients become pudding. I either have pudding, or I don't ;). I happen to have tapioca in the end; I have so many lumps in my "flavor" of pudding. Speedo has tapioca too, but his has bananas :p.

As for the common sense should-have-learned-by-age-8 thing, let's look at my Kid. She has severe PI ADHD herself, and while she has a genius level IQ? She did not process the concept of "You shut the door behind you when you go in or out" until she was over 7 years old :eek:. No kidding!

When one is severely distracted and inattentive, you miss a LOT. I know I told her, over and over again, that we shut doors when we go in or out, yet her "brain popups" as she so quaintly puts it, kept the message from being processed for many years. Perhaps this is what has happened to your husband? I know it has happened to me.

On one foot I have loads of common sense, and on the other foot there are many years of social cues I have missed and must learn now, and this is frustrating to me. I am 40 years old for crying out loud! Some days I could just lay down and weep for all I have to learn that others learned in elementary school.

Other days I attack these lessons with new energy, and find my own ADD-Way methods to deal with the lessons...Phooey on what everybody else can do, this is what works for me and I do not care what "they" think of it, I have pudding and that's all that matters, right?

I cannot stand certain sounds or smells; but I can drown the pain of the sounds with loud music and I can distract my nose by overloading my mouth with a strong tasting lozenge--I have bags and bags of these lozenges and maybe it looks odd?

I don't care, because I have pudding today...

Images for you and your frustration, a frustration that is not so different from my own:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/YIKESpurple.gif

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/icon_thnk0001.gif

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/icon_banghead.gif

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/pullhair2.gif

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/kzrainbow/rant.gif

And a description of how the ADD brain works that I posted for non-ADD members can be found HERE. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=318135&postcount=1)

Keep talking, keep us posted, and welcome to ADDF from me and my family--the founders of NeuroDiversity University :D.

chamomile,

None of those things you describe in your first post sound like issues dealing with common sense. They sound like skills that your husband never learned. This could be AD/HD related, Aspergers related, just things his parents never really taught him, or a combitation if some or all of these things. What are your in-laws like? Do they have good social/life skills?

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all of your supportive answers!

Okay, I've had more sleep, and I think I understand why some are suggesting that Poor Impulse Control might be playing a factor. I also realize that I probably should have included a personal definition of the phrase "Lack of Common Sense" because it can have negative connotations.

The idea about dyspraxia is a liberating idea. I don't know why....Well, I guess maybe because the general ADHD behaviors that wind up being so destructive in our marriage generate a lot of frustration on my part, because as it was said, I don't want a third child, and I don't want an inbalanced power dynamic in our marriage. Also, there is the very real issue that, at least in my marriage, one partner (my husband) has total trust in and support from the other, because the partner (me) has proven to be nothing but trustworthy. But the other partner (me) has very little trust in and support from the other, because the other partner (him) has frequently and consistently failed to arrive in the marriage in a trustworthy fashion (he will tell you this himself). The trust issues, the exhaustion on my part, the fear I have that another major disaster (like when he lost our health insurance two weeks before I was due to give birth, because he procrastinated mailing forms for weeks and then mailed incomplete documents) is lurking around the corner. And it is, based on our history.

So I think maybe the dyspraxia possibility is making it more possible for me to take another look at the myriad of issues we have on the table, and figure out which ones are truly out of his control and which ones I can expect him to keep plugging away at solutions to.

Also, I'm not one to knock a diagnosis. My motto is that it is easier to figure out what to do to help if you know what you're dealing with. I don't consider ADHD a disability unless the person with it allows it to be a disability. This goes for pretty much every human condition: it's what you make of the situation that makes it a disability or not.

Currently, I would say that my husband's ADHD is a disability. He takes no medication, because as soon as he starts one, any weird symptom makes him stop. But he procrastinates going to the doctor to adjust the dose, or to even discuss the issue, and suddenly a year has passed. Right now, his ADHD is a crippling force in our lives, and my frustration with the sitation is at it's highest ever. That is because I am very much aware that I have no control in the situation, but I am expected to compensate for the fallout just the same. This makes me very uncomfortable.

Anyway, thanks for all your help, and I'll post more about our issues when I feel up to it.

Thanks for all of your supportive answers!


you're welcome. :) i'm glad you found the info. on dyspraxia helpful. i know when i first learned about it, i had one of those proverbial "lightbulb" moments. so, i'm happy to be able to pay it forward.


... Right now, his ADHD is a crippling force in our lives, and my frustration with the sitation is at it's highest ever. That is because I am very much aware that I have no control in the situation, but I am expected to compensate for the fallout just the same. This makes me very uncomfortable.

wow. you're level of self-awareness and insight is incredible. thanks for sharing your story with us.

i'm a person who dislikes chaos (the "not having control of a situation" part especially), coming to terms with it (an on-going process, by the way) has been a key part of healing my relationships. so, what you've written is something i recognise in myself, and, i know we're not alone.

thank you again for sharing your story.

wheezie

chamomille: I relate to the trust issue you write about. I just had a conversation with my husband where i told him that I was jealous sometimes (not often, but when it happens, it feels awful), and it's because of what he has done in the past. I also told him that I believe it's his responsibility -- if he wants to help me get over it and help our marriage -- to listen, to reassure me and to not get bleeping defensive. He can't do it; he says he feels attacked. He's never had one reason to doubt me but thinks I should just totally trust him with no reservations (not even after what happened early on, which I don't need to go into because it doesn't matter). It seems like such an easy gift to give me.....I love you, there's nobody else, don't worry, you're the only one I love, etc. etc.....how hard it that? arg.

Camomille,
Like you, I am a newly delurked partner of an ADDer.
I really don't want to start a flame war here, but I was really grabbed by your title.
you see, one of the not so pleasent faucets of my DHs personality is usually described in my family ( and admittedly by myself) as his complete lack of common sense !
truly, we exaggerate, and i do understand the ADDers frustration and offence at the term, but to the outsiders that is what it looks like.

My DH is bright, charming, handsome, educated, healthy etc. But he cannot logically plan a string of three errands to do in a row. Now, he has started meds again this year after a gap of ?30? unmedicated years, and counseling. He is MUCH improved, so i think this proves a lot of his personal issue was more organizational skills than true LOCS. But man it looks that way sometimes.

Some of the awkward things you describe, while worse than his, do remind me of him, and our 9yo. Especially the knife thing...not pretty.

Again, not trying to re-open any wounds, but i felt bad for Camomille when she said a lot of things I too have thought or experienced and then she got jumped.

:o
Balancing act

Balancing act, I'm sorry if any of the posts on this thread made you feel defensive because I sure didn't feel defensive. I love the opportunity for people to learn more about what is ADHD and what is not.
you see, one of the not so pleasent faucets of my DHs personality is usually described in my family ( and admittedly by myself) as his complete lack of common sense !Well, you did what you knew, then. Now that you are learning more about ADHD, you might be able to help your family learn more. The book Driven To Distraction is an easy read for anyone wanting to learn things about ADHD; especially adult ADHD.

Just for the record, table manners are a learned social behaviour, not something we are born with. I am quite comfortable dining at very formal dinners and my children started using plastic knives appropriately while they were babies because they wanted to copy Mom and Dad. :D

Well I didn't get to read all these replies, but I'd like you to know...

Everyone tells me that I don't have common sense (family, friends...total strangers). I won't understand a task that I've never done before unless someone shows me how first...I mean, i'ts really quite odd because I can hook up someone's stereo that I've never seen before, but I was amazed today to find out that you can clip multiple clip-boards together...

My family gets really frustrated with my lack of common sense, because it really doesn't help them when I'm supposed to get something done. I was hoping there'd be some answers with help in here...but from what I've read, theres just a lot of bickering about ADD and Autism and stuff...so I'm a little disappointed, as this is a problem that's plagued me for a long, long time.

Fawbio, in order for productive discussion to occur, we must all agree on the criteria. We can't compare apples and oranges; actually, we could but it would be a waste of time, right? Non-ADHD people come to an ADHD forum to learn about ADHD and that's all we are doing, clarifying what is ADHD. If someone doesn't understand and they post more questions, that isn't bickering. It helps if you read a thread from beginning to end.

Mkay sorry if that sounded off...

What I meant was:

This thread isn't as far along in the discussion as I'd hoped..we're still trying to match the criteria and not yet begin to share experience with this problem. I guess I was just really hopeful that I'd find some answers, because it's been really tough in highschool with no common sense.

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But trying to cook is very difficult for me - especially when trying to cook more than one thing at a time - and having someone in the kitchen with me asking questions provokes great frustration and often rage.

I do the same thing. I can cook a four course meal, but when someone else comes in and trys to tell me how to do it when i know excatly what im doing i end up saying " fine, if you wnat to tell me how YOU cook it.This happend a few months ago and it was someone who was 17. I had to bite my tounge cause i know i was being a bit senstive. Maby she was just trying to help but i took it as she was thinking that i dinit know what i was doing. I need complete focus when cooking, so people know to stay outta my way when im in the kitchen ,including my cat that likes to lay in the middle of the kitchen right in my way to the microwave. (little bugger). Thats what the broom is for. Its hard to be pateint when your trying to cook for other people. Im a perfectionist as well and when i do serve the meal im always asking " does it taste ok, is it to dry??? I get good responses tho. :)If it tastes good to me, it might not for someone else tho. Im pretty pickky tho. anyways,ill ramble some more somewere else lol.

In response to :I can relate. Try cooking a four corse meal with only one burner working lol.I use the microwave 2 ,so i do ok :)
Lunacie (http://www.addforums.com/forums/member.php?u=6168)
But trying to cook is very difficult for me - especially when trying to cook more than one thing at a time - and having someone in the kitchen with me asking questions provokes great frustration and often rage.

I do the same thing. I can cook a four course meal, but when someone else comes in and trys to tell me how to do it when i know excatly what im doing i end up saying " fine, if you wnat to tell me how, YOU cook it.This happend a few months ago and it was someone who was 17. I had to bite my tounge cause i know i was being a bit senstive. Maby she was just trying to help but i took it as she was thinking that i dinit know what i was doing. I need complete focus when cooking, so people know to stay outta my way when im in the kitchen ,including my cat that likes to lay in the middle of the kitchen right in my way to the microwave. (little bugger). Thats what the broom is for. Its hard to be pateint when your trying to cook for other people. Im a perfectionist as well and when i do serve the meal im always asking " does it taste ok, is it to dry??? I get good responses tho. :)If it tastes good to me, it might not for someone else tho. Im pretty pickky tho. anyways,ill ramble some more somewere else lol. Its good to control that rage 2 or you will have a mess all over your kitchen from thrown mashed potaoes, sumthing ive dont in the past. Was very hard to clean up cause i procrastinated and it all dryed up , wait ,that was spagettie sause one day. But that was years before i found out i was add. Anyways, it really helps me to read posts of you guys to help me beter understand my disorder, i greatly appreciate your help. :) Hopefully im still welcomed. :)

Hello everyone,

I'm new on this site and a wife of a husband with ADD. Since joining, I have laughed and cried over many of the posts. This may sound strange, but I'm awfully glad you are all out there. Makes me realize that I'm not the only one having a hard time coping.

my boyfriend was diagnosed with add as a child and he doesnt seem to have any common sense either but it does seem that the line between "lack of impulse control" and lack of common sense can get really blurred. like sometimes he says things to people and they just come accross wrong and he doesnt notice that everyone is looking at him like he said something tabboo or out of line so he won't realize that he shouldn't have said it until we get home and i explain it to him. a couple of my friends kept telling me that he was being creepy and stuff like almost hitting on them. and it really scared me for obvious reasons. i eventually got to the bottom of it which was: he just didn't realize he was doing it, he didnt realize that he was crossing a line and he didnt notice when people reacted to it. the main thing for him i think tho, is he just doesnt pay enough attention to what he's doing. i mean "good idea/bad idea" barely even comes to mind. i used to think of him kind of like a twig that floats down a river with no real control of what it does or where it ends up. i don't know if you can relate but i thought i'd put in my 2 cents anyway

Ok... first off... The dispraxia witht he knife and fork kind of thing... may be an issue, but I've been labled as Not "Having Common Sense" my entire life.

By my parents... because I couldn't remember what time they wanted me home... or I'd forget to do chores... or I'd have to ask them 3 times to re-explain how to do a chore/task.

By my wife... She had to constantly tell me to put my napkin in my lap before we started eating... I had never been taught growing up because we didn't eat out often or even eat together at home. When you are ADHD it's hard to remember these things.

Tell me to do something a hundred times... and as I've heard it before... I'll tune it out as noise. Ask me once insistently... being nice... and all it takes is once.

My wife says "can you do X?"
Me "sure I will"
Her "Can you do it now?.... I'm afraid you'll forget later... so please do it now?"
Me (Huff...sigh) "Ok... I guess so"
5 minutes after we finish said task... we forget why it was such a big ordeal in the first place.

For me the "common sense" issue comes in when people/and my wife... ask me a question or try to get me to "tune in" and I just can't answer/pay attention. If you aren't paying attention... you won't remember to do what is asked. Poor memory is definately a trait of ADHD.

Poor response time in conversation can also lead to a label of "lacking in common sense". If someone asks me a question... It takes a few moments longer than a "normal person" to process the information and come up with a response. This can frustrate the person asking the question... or cause the ADHD'er to respond incorrectly. People are sometimes unkind to those they see as "weaker or slower", and when the response time is slow... they CAN come off as a "jerk", which in turn causes the ADHD'er to focus his attention on what they would LIKE to say. Such as where to stick their question. Trust me when I say that, even though your husband may seem like he's seldom frustrated... His frustrations more than likely equal or exceed your own. It's just sometimes hard for us to explain our own frustrations to others because we know that part of the frustration stems from our own inability to communicate.

As to making an appointment... Why not make one for him? I find it almost impossible to motivate myself to make appointments for things that don't really bother me that much. When I need a haircut... my wife tells me I need one and I ask her to make me one. If she doesn't... I end up getting shaggy to the point where I can't stand it... and make one myself. If we have an event like a wedding coming up... she'll just go ahead and make it for me. If you think medication will help him... do some research to find a physician that will actively work with him to find a med that has no, or at least acceptable, side effects. Don't trust him to do it if you suspect that he won't... Just do it yourself... and delegate one of the tasks that you do on a regular basis, that he would be good at, to him. That way everyone wins.

Heh... I totally understand both sides of the arguement for lack of motivation. My wife and I both suffer from it... but in different areas. The frustration can sometimes become almost unbearable... but I've found that the easiest way to get beyond this is to find what you both are good at and decide which tasks should be delegated to whom.

Being married... in general requires some probing to see which one is better at what tasks... So If you know that your DH is bad at paying bills... why would you let him be responsible for the most important ones? When you delegate a task to someone you already know will probably fail at... you are setting yourselves up for a fight.

IMNSHO:)... and from what I've always heard... Marriage is supposed to be a union. Two people become one... and all of that good stuff. If you see a weakness in your SO... then you try to take up the slack. If he sees the weakness in you he does the same. If these weakness are way off balance and you can't handle the imbalance... then maybe you should seek counseling.

I do not want to sound like I am condemning you in any way, because I'm not... BUT... what are your faults?

We know your side of the story(and everyone has one), but what does your husband take care of that you absolutely cannot and/or will not? Where do you think he would say your biggest fault lies?

Anywhoo Hope this helps:D

It also just so happens that pretty much every male member of his father's side of the family has some form of undiagnosed ADHD or Asperger's, which I find interesting.
...Still, with all my experience in the "field," I still find myself stunned by what my husband doesn't know. I'm not just talking about things I JUST TOLD HIM that he SOMEHOW FORGOT....I'm talking about common sense stuff that he should have picked up when he was about eight.
Chamomile, a couple of questions. You mentioned every male member of your husband's family having some form of ADHD or Asperger's. What about his mom? ADD can be much harder to see in women. A couple of the things you mentioned should have been taught by his mom, and if she has undiagnosed / untreated ADHD or other disability, she's less likely to have taught him the stuff he should have learned when he was eight.

Second question--how does your husband view himself? Does he think he is extremely logical and always has the practical answer, or does he recognize the shortcomings in his common sense? Does he think he's good with people? Does he sometimes have good common sense and sometimes none at all? I was struck by some similarities with one of my extended family members, and I'm really curious how far the parallels go. Please keep us posted if you get more of a handle on what's going on.

Some families just have way different standards, and combine inheriting ADHD with being surrounded by family members that do things the same odd way, it's easy to grow up never knowing there are other ways to do it. Especially if the ways are odd enough to isolate you from the rest of society. I have in-laws that sometimes sound like they're talking their own version of baby talk. It all started when someone thought one of the kid's baby talk was cute, and the whole family, including the older kids, adopted a lot of the words. It sounds incredibly retarded, especially when they're talking to grownups without a history with the family (like strangers in the store:eek: ) and they're totally clueless. I'm not sure the younger ones ever learned how the words are really said in English. I could definitely see the whole potato chip bag thing flying with them and it would become a family tradition, after which no other options would be taught. It's not that they're dumb, they aren't. They're just...??? :confused: Something. My husband managed to escape the worst of it, who knows how.

In my family, I'm the one with the obvious ADD. Most of the time I have really, truly great common sense but occasionally it is totally out the window. Sometimes it's the ADD but more often it's asthma. I'm well aware (now) of how hard it has been for my husband to be the one to have to provide structure for us, but it took me a long time to come to that realization and start learning how to hold up my part of the load. Hopefully your husband will figure it out sooner rather than later. But it's not just a 'today I'm going to start acting like a grownup' thing. ADD messes with your head big-time.

If you had said he just doesn't get it sometimes, that would have been more palatable for this crowd. I'm sure many ADHDers have felt or feel like they step on peoples toes far too often. ADHDers are know to have a lack of maturity based on their chronological age. It is a developmental disorder which means ADHDers lag behind in certain key skill sets.

Having said all that, some of that stuff sounds a little more like Autism Spectrum.

(I'm the ADDer in the family, and I would love to see what my husband would say about being the spouse of the attention-challenged.) I'm sorry that non-ADD spouses feel that they are not
getting to use this space for their needs and feel comfortable about venting or asking questions of people in similar situations. I do read messages in this forum sometimes, because I'm very curious as to how the ADD and the non differ. It also helps me develop some understanding of what my loved one's perceive and how it differs from what I perceive.