View Full Version : Some Things I've Been Thinking About


D.B. Cooper
09-29-06, 03:47 PM
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/prprice.cfm

Studies of a gene that affects how efficiently the brain’s frontal lobes process information are revealing some untidy consequences of a tiny variation in its molecular structure and how it may increase susceptibility to schizophrenia. People with a common version of the gene associated with more efficient working memory and frontal lobe information processing may pay a penalty in adverse responses to amphetamine, in heightened anxiety and sensitivity to pain. Yet, another common version may slightly bias the brain toward a pattern of neurochemical activity associated with psychosis, report researchers at the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

Everyone inherits two copies of the catecho-O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, one from each parent. It codes for the enzyme that metabolizes neurotransmitters like dopamine and norepinephrine and comes in two common versions. One version, met, contains the amino acid methionine at a point in its chemical sequence where the other version, val, contains a valine. Depending on the mix of variants inherited, a person’s COMT genes can be typed met/met, val/val, or val/met.

"Since both versions of the COMT gene are common in the population – they’ve been conserved as the human brain evolved -- it makes sense that each would confer some advantages and disadvantages," explained Daniel Weinberger, M.D., National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), whose research team, headed by Venkata Mattay, M.D., reports on how the variants affect the brain’s response to amphetamine in the May 13, 2003 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, already published online.

"Genes don’t directly encode for psychopathology, hallucinations, delusions and panic attacks. Rather, there is a very complicated path between a gene’s influence on the regulation and function of a protein and such psychiatric phenomena," added Weinberger. "We’re especially interested in the COMT gene variants because they provide insight into how a gene affects the way the brain processes information – and perhaps how this might ultimately increase susceptibility to schizophrenia." A series of brain imaging studies by the NIMH researchers have shown that frontal lobe information processing is impaired in schizophrenia.

Two years ago, the NIMH researchers reported that people with the val/val variant had evidence of reduced prefrontal dopamine activity and less efficient prefrontal information processing, along with slightly increased risk for schizophrenia. People with val/met had more efficient prefrontal function, and people with met/met the most efficient. The met variant results in 3-4 times weaker enzyme action, which is thought to allow for more dopamine activity in the prefrontal cortex, as the neurotransmitter breaks down more slowly.

Since amphetamine boosts dopamine activity in the prefrontal cortex, the researchers predicted that the drug would, in effect, correct a deficiency in people with val/val – that they would experience more optimal levels of dopamine and perform better on working memory and other cognitive tasks known to depend on the prefrontal cortex. They further predicted that people with met/met on amphetamine would perform worse and their frontal lobes would function less efficiently as task difficulty increased.

In what the researchers believe is the "first demonstration in humans of a genetic explanation for individual differences in the brain response to amphetamine," they asked 27 normal volunteers – 10 val/vl, 11 val/met, and 6 met/met – to perform working memory and other "executive" (abstract reasoning, planning) tasks while their brain activity was monitored using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). In the double-blind, crossover design, subjects were given either amphetamine or placebo prior to performing the tasks. Efficiency, or neuronal signal-to-noise ratio, was gauged by how hard the brain had to work to maintain a given level of task performance.

As predicted, regardless of how hard the working memory task was, val/val subjects on amphetamine showed more efficient frontal lobe function – their brains didn’t have to work as hard as they did on placebo to perform quickly and accurately. By contrast, the efficiency, accuracy and reaction time of met/met subjects on amphetamine dropped off precipitously, from placebo levels, when the task reached the hardest of three levels of difficulty, suggesting that their information processing was compromised. Another test of frontal lobe function showed a similar pattern. Val/val subjects on amphetamine appeared similar to met/met individuals at baseline. Met/met subjects on amphetamine performed worse than subjects with val/val at baseline.

These results fit a model in which dopamine activity needs to be neither too low nor too high for optimal prefrontal functioning. The brain performs most efficiently when dopamine activity is at a moderate level corresponding to the top of an upside-down "U."

"The combined effects on dopamine levels of amphetamine and high working memory load push individuals with the met/met genotype beyond the critical threshold at which compensation can be made," suggest the researchers. They note evidence from other studies that too much dopamine activity in the prefrontal cortex may disorganize neural networks by activating inhibitory mechanisms.

Amphetamines and other drugs that affect prefrontal dopamine systems are used to treat Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), and other psychiatric illnesses, and some people respond better than others to these medications. Noting that it has been difficult to predict, in advance, which patients might show adverse responses, the researchers suggest that, after further research, COMT gene type may become a relevant factor to consider in managing treatment. About 15-20 percent of individuals in populations of European ancestry have the met/met COMT gene type.

In other recent studies, researchers supported by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) have found an association between met/met and increased anxiety -- and heightened sensitivity to pain. Yet, the emerging theme from what’s being learned about effects of the COMT gene val/met genetic variation, or polymorphism, is that it cuts both ways. NIMH’s Weinberger says preliminary evidence suggests that having even one met predicts a better response on working memory tests in schizophrenia patients after treatment with an antipsychotic medication. Moreover, there is new evidence about how the val variant may increase risk for such psychotic illness.

Mayada Akil, M.D., Joel Kleinman, M.D., and colleagues in the NIMH Clinical Brain Disorders Branch, examined expression of the gene that codes for tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that makes dopamine, in the brains of 23 deceased normal subjects. In the March 15, 2003 Journal of Neuroscience, they report that the gene turns-on more in neurons projecting to the striatum (an area in the middle of the brain) in people who inherited two copies of the COMT val variant than in those with only one copy of the val variant. The higher expression of the tyrosine hydroxylase gene reflects higher dopamine synthesis, and presumably, higher activity of dopamine neurons.

Evidence suggests that the val variant likely triggers more dopamine activity in the striatum indirectly, by dampening prefrontal dopamine activity. A resulting weak prefrontal signal-to-noise ratio gets telegraphed to the lower brain areas by other neurons projecting from the prefrontal cortex, disinhibiting the dopamine neurons projecting to the striatum, the researchers speculate. Such a seesaw pattern of decreased dopamine in the prefrontal cortex and increased dopamine in the striatum has been implicated as a mechanism related to schizophrenia and psychosis in humans. Animal studies modeling possible brain mechanisms in schizophrenia have also observed this pattern. These val-influenced variations "slightly bias humans toward the expression of two biological phenomena associated with schizophrenia: abnormal prefrontal function and up-regulated striatal dopamine activity," suggest the researchers.

Many mysteries still surround the COMT gene's possible role in schizophrenia and other psychiatric illness. For example, last Fall a team of researchers in Israel reported finding strong associations between other parts of the COMT gene and schizophrenia.

Researchers who participated in the amphetamine study also included: Drs. Terry Goldberg, Francesco Fera, Ahmad Hariri, Alessandro Tessitore, Michael Egan, Bhaskar Kolachana, Joseph Callicott, NIMH. Also participating in the postmortem study were: Drs. Bhaskar Kolachana, Debora Rothmond, Thomas Hyde, Daniel Weinberger, NIMH.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/ImageGallery/Press/prprice.jpg

An inverted "U" models the effects of COMT gene type, difficulty of the working memory task, and amphetamine on dopamine (DA) activity in the prefrontal cortex. By boosting dopamine, amphetamine shifts people who have inherited two copies of the val variant (green) -- who normally have relatively poorer prefrontal function, greater COMT activity, and presumably less dopamine activity – to the right, and more optimal functioning. Amphetamine shifts people with two copies of met (red) – who normally are at an optimal position – to less efficient functioning as the task reaches the most difficult level (3-Back) and places a greater load on the brain.

Source: NIMH Clinical Brain Disorders Branch, 2003.
Well...this explains a great deal about why stimulants seem to work amazing for some and cause dysfunction for others. Its much more complex of an issue than simply over medication vs under medication or type of med.

D.B. Cooper
09-29-06, 03:50 PM
http://www.psych.org/pnews/98-01-19/iq.html


Adults with superior I.Q.s and ADD/ADHD face unique risks that can spell failure academically and professionally, according to the results of a study presented at the annual meeting of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (AACAP) in October.

One hundred and three adults who participated in a study last year had I.Q.’s of at least 120 on the verbal or performance sections or both when tested on the revised Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, and all met the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, either the combined type or predominantly the inattentive type.

Their I.Q.’s put them in the top 9 percent of the general population, said Thomas Brown, Ph.D., who conducted the study and presented the results at the Toronto AACAP meeting. Brown is associate director of the Yale Clinic for Attention and Related Disorders in New Haven, Conn.

"Increasingly, we are seeing that ADD is a problem of executive function in which specific areas of the brain are impaired that provide central control, and connect, prioritize, and integrate other functions," Brown said. "A key element of executive function is a working memory, which allows an individual to hold onto information, manipulate it, and retrieve it from long-term memory."

Brown noted that 60 percent of the participants tested at or below the 75th percentile on subsets of the I.Q. test that required short-term concentration and working memory.

"Nonetheless, their overall verbal or performance I.Q. scores were high enough to carry the lower scores," said Brown.

He explained that he was especially interested in this sample "because all the participants had similar intellectual abilities, but some were very successful while others had severe difficulty."

The researchers rated 18 percent of the sample as being very well adjusted, because they achieved educational and employment levels consistent with their intellectual abilities, were financially independent, maintained at least one stable social relationship, and had no drug or alcohol abuse problems at the time of the study.

Most participants were rated well adjusted to adequately adjusted (44 percent and 30 percent, respectively) because they were able to meet at least two or more of the researchers’ criteria.

Not surprisingly, educational achievement was positively correlated with being well adjusted. For example, everyone in the very well-adjusted group had at least a bachelor’s degree; 78 percent also had a master’s degree, and 17 percent a doctoral degree.

Those participants tended to include the highest number of professionals including doctors, lawyers, and business people, noted Brown.

In contrast, a little more than half of the poorly adjusted group (11 percent of the sample) had dropped out of college. Only 9 percent completed a bachelor’s degree, and none had a master’s or doctoral degree. Despite their superior intelligence, those participants tended to be in unskilled jobs or unemployed, noted Brown.

Comorbid psychiatric disorders were nearly entirely correlated with poorer levels of adjustment. Fifty-six percent of the poorly functioning group had major depressive disorder, 82 percent had dysthymia, and 9 percent were diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

In contrast, only 6 percent of the top-functioning group suffered from major depressive disorder, 28 percent had dysthymia, and 6 percent had bipolar disorder.

"Interestingly, 17 percent of the best-adjusted group met the diagnostic criteria for generalized anxiety disorder. Nervousness in an individual with ADD can be helpful in containing some of the impulsive responses and keeping the person moving toward his or her goals," observed Brown.

The poorly adjusted group had the highest levels of panic disorder (9 percent), social phobia (19 percent), and alcohol and drug abuse (10 percent and 20 percent, respectively).

"Substance abuse, depression, social phobia, learning disorders, and panic disorder all contributed to poor adjustment outcomes," said Brown.

Participants in the very well-adjusted group also reported that they had parents or mentors who were very supportive of their strengths and were not locked into battles over control or excessively critical, added Brown. Other factors contributing to their success were proven abilities in sports or the arts, holding jobs while in college, and having "functional" friends. Im in no way suggesting i have any sort of superior intellect, if anything im an idiot savant who can process linear information very well but when faced with problems that require multiple thought processes like math i fail horribly. The super high amount of dysthymics amongst the dysfunctional adhders blew my mind, dysthymia has a very low rate of diagnosis as it doesnt carry the usual tell tale signs of depression. Generally the only way its found out someone is dysthymic is that they finally snap and have to be medicated/locked up. While the disorder is often viewed as a milder form of long lasting (life long usually) depression, its effects being much more subtle subvert the suffers entire personality/reality rather than being a transient problem.

D.B. Cooper
09-29-06, 07:17 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15650498

OBJECTIVES: The aim of this study was to examine the selegiline treatment compared to methylphenidate (MPH) in children and adolescents with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). METHOD: Forty subjects, aged 6-15 years, boys and girls, who were diagnosed as having ADHD, using the criteria of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders- Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), were randomly assigned to receive either selegiline or MPH for 60 days. Treatment outcomes were assessed using the Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Scale (ADHS) administered at baseline and on days 14, 28, 42, and 60 following the commencement of treatment. Side effects were also rated. RESULTS: There were no significant differences between sex, age, weight, and ethnicity of participants in the 2 groups. Both groups showed a significant improvement over the 60 days of treatment resulting from the teachers' and parents' ADHS scores across the treatment. CONCLUSION: Following the trial, MPH did not effect greater mean improvement as a result of the parents' or teachers' ADHS scores than selegiline. Thus, selegiline appears to be effective and well tolerated for ADHD in children and adolescents.
This is what i've been theorizing about EMSAM for a while but didnt know there was ever a study about it. This could be a really good alternative to amphetamines that lacks all the ups and downs, rebounds, etc that are associated with them. Now if only EMSAM wasnt $450 freaking dollars a month.

quasiloco
10-02-06, 06:02 AM
I've been pondering the possible efficay of selegiline too.
Eldepryl vs EMSAM-do you think delivery method is important? I realize it's a MAO-B and in high enough dosages will kick off the tyramine problem, but from the articles that I have browsed, I get the feeling that since it affects the DA concentration from a different pathway than the amphetamines, that perhaps an effective dosage might be quite low. Perhaps even a combination very carefully titrated might be just the ticket?

Not much research being done with this drug for ADD, but it seems very promising. I haven't yet researched just how many of the Parkinson's meds have been tested for efficacy in alleviating ADD symptoms, but I think it certainly bears some thought.

The other thread I'm looking into is the effectiveness of modafinil (Provigil) This seems to also have a low side effect but effective for ADD. Frontal lobes, narcolepsy. I'm tired... Maybe narcolepsy is an extreme form of inattention!

I'm new here, hope you don't mind my barging in.

Crazy~Feet
10-02-06, 06:28 AM
Seems like a great deal of overlapping symptomatology between Dysthymia and PI ADHD.

What are the main symptoms of dysthymic disorder?

Depressed mood (lasting 2 or more years); feelings of hopelessness; poor concentration or difficulty making decisions; low self-esteem; low energy or fatigue; poor <st1:cpsmarttag w:st="on">sleep</st1:cpsmarttag>; and poor appetite or overeating. Our research studies have shown that there are more subtle symptoms of DD as well, which may be even more common. People with DD are also often socially withdrawn, and perform below their abilities at work and school. They often find it difficult to take normal day-to-day risks such as asking someone out on a date, or calling to apply for a job. They are often easily discouraged, and often have difficulty completing tasks. They are often overly pessimistic.


Inattention



Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.

Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.

Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.

Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).

Often has trouble organizing activities.

Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).

Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).

Is often easily distracted.

Is often forgetful in daily activities.



Unless I am confused, it seems that a lifetime of untreated PI would naturally lead to dysthymia. All the participants in the study were untreated adults, after all.

scuro
10-02-06, 08:39 AM
DB,

met/val article was very interesting. It sounds like a landmark study.
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Unless I am confused, it seems that a lifetime of untreated PI would naturally lead to dysthymia. All the participants in the study were untreated adults, after all.
Interesting idea...but the PI's don't make waves. The PI's are the ignored in society where as the other two subtypes are often the rejected members of society, with over half of the hyperactives/ combos qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD at some point in their life. So which subgroup is going to get more depressed about life?

Crazy~Feet
10-02-06, 08:47 AM
Seems to me PI have plenty of reason to be depressed. After all, nothing appears to be wrong ;) yet something certainly is most dramatically wrong.

Speaking for myself, of course.

Dissident
10-02-06, 08:47 PM
Wow, I think I'm even more screwed than I thought. What a depressing thread...

scuro
10-04-06, 12:16 AM
"Gray skies are going to clear up, put on a happy face; wipe off the clouds and cheer up, put on a happy face; spread sunshine all over the place - and put on a happy face."
:):):) :):):) :):):) :):):) :):):) :):):) :):):) :):):)

My motto...it can always get worse! ..and let me tell you, I've seen worse.

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An aside-> I got this message, You have included too many images in your signature or in your previous post.., and had to delete happy faces. :mad:
You can not have more then 29 faces!

D.B. Cooper
10-06-06, 10:31 PM
I've been pondering the possible efficay of selegiline too.
Eldepryl vs EMSAM-do you think delivery method is important? I realize it's a MAO-B and in high enough dosages will kick off the tyramine problem, but from the articles that I have browsed, I get the feeling that since it affects the DA concentration from a different pathway than the amphetamines, that perhaps an effective dosage might be quite low. Perhaps even a combination very carefully titrated might be just the ticket?
If you have to go with the oral than go with the liquid deprenyl(sp?). People tend to say its more potent than the pill. The problem with any oral administration of this drug is that its half life is very small and you'd have to redose every 3 hours. Which is really whats held it back for the last 40 years or however long.

FuturePast
10-07-06, 01:48 PM
Seems to me PI have plenty of reason to be depressed. After all, nothing appears to be wrong ;) yet something certainly is most dramatically wrong.

Speaking for myself, of course.


And me, I reckon.

JustNeedHelp
11-25-06, 07:25 PM
If you have to go with the oral than go with the liquid deprenyl(sp?). People tend to say its more potent than the pill. The problem with any oral administration of this drug is that its half life is very small and you'd have to redose every 3 hours. Which is really whats held it back for the last 40 years or however long.well what the hell, i just realized it is very possibly to take selegiline via oral administration for ad/h/d just think about it... how did they get Mehtylphenidate to work so long (half-life 3 hrs~ right?) they put it in a huge gell capsule and had it released over a 12 hour period (CONCERTA) so why not send alza a message telling em someone invented a new way to treat adhd with there already patented methods i get a big fat check sent to me to say thanks and we go about our ways


(ps. alza corp. im thinking a check for $1,250,000.01 made out to Justin wouldnt be to bad negotiation is unlikely unless the price goes up!)

jeaniebug
11-26-06, 12:24 AM
DB et.al.

I was interested in the very end of your post regarding IQ, ADHD and success, where you quoted . . .

Participants in the very well-adjusted group also reported that they had parents or mentors who were very supportive of their strengths and were not locked into battles over control or excessively critical, added Brown. Other factors contributing to their success were proven abilities in sports or the arts, holding jobs while in college, and having "functional" friends.

My parents were/are excessively critical and I have anxiety/panic disorder. Although I have a post graduate degree, a job and several "functional" friends. I read somewhere recently that every child needs at least one adult who supports and believes in them to succeed. I at least had world-class grandparents and I did well in school, which was much more supportive than my own family.

Interesting thread! ;)

D.B. Cooper
11-28-06, 05:26 PM
Yes, it would seem a supportive environment and a person that lacks co-morbid disorders leads to more sucessful ad/hd folks. I think its the co-morbid disorders that are the real killer though, its scary to think transient depression or an anxiety disorder can completely alter your life.

steviefranchise
11-28-06, 08:25 PM
D.B. wow, this thread will take me awhile to read!

charonshanti
12-02-06, 01:38 AM
Thanks, DB... very interesting stuff.

trying
06-04-07, 02:27 AM
The impairment here doesn't have to be a function purely of dopamine, though obviously there can be too much dopamine, and it can produce an impairment.

It could be something integral to amphetamine's mode of action producing a disturbance, for instance.

EDIT: Reading old threads ... sorry for the necromancy but this was indeed very interesting, maybe I can stir up more discussion, thanks catman.