What is interesting here, is that negative life outcomes were found, just by looking at the Psychometrically defined deficits of executive functioning.
EF's have been defined as response inhibition, vigilance, working memory, and planning.


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American Journal of Psychiatry 163:1730-1738, October 2006
doi: 10.1176/appi.ajp.163.10.1730
© 2006 American Psychiatric Association

Impact of Psychometrically Defined Deficits of Executive Functioning in Adults With Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
Joseph Biederman, M.D., Carter Petty, M.A., Ronna Fried, Ed.D., Jessie Fontanella, B.A., Alysa E. Doyle, Ph.D., Larry J. Seidman, Ph.D. and Stephen V. Faraone, Ph.D.

OBJECTIVE: The association between deficits in executive functioning and functional outcomes was examined among adults with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). METHOD: Subjects were adults who did (N=213) and did not (N=145) meet DSM-IV criteria for ADHD. The authors defined having deficits in executive functioning as having at least two measures of executive functioning with scores 1.5 standard deviations below those of matched comparison subjects. RESULTS: Significantly more adults with ADHD had deficits of executive functioning than comparison subjects. Deficits of executive functioning were associated with lower academic achievement, irrespective of ADHD status. Subjects with ADHD with deficits of executive functioning had a significantly lower socioeconomic status and a significant functional morbidity beyond the diagnosis of ADHD alone. CONCLUSIONS: Psychometrically defined deficits of executive functioning may help identify a subgroup of adults with ADHD at high risk for occupational and academic underachievement. More efforts are needed to identify cost-effective approaches to screen individuals with ADHD for deficits of executive functioning.

Once they've been screened and identified, I wonder what (if any) approach they would take any different than standard medication? Thanks for sharing another interesting article, Scuro!:)

Once they've been screened and identified, I wonder what (if any) approach they would take any different than standard medication? Thanks for sharing another interesting article, Scuro!:)More medication? :cool:

But the seperation between the 2 is interesting. Could really lead to some new ideas. Good stuff :)

Would one of you be willing to help me understand the point? (I'm being SINCERE. I sometimes have trouble understanding information.)


What is interesting here, is that negative life outcomes were found, just by looking at the Psychometrically defined deficits of executive functioning.
EF's have been defined as response inhibition, vigilance, working memory, and planning.


I guess what I was unable to grasp from the original post is WHAT the "psychometrically defined deficits" are. Could someone tell me what they are (in as simple, but thorough, a way as possible, please).

It's probably very obvious that I do not have much of a scientific base of knowledge to reference. When I read these kinds of articles, my initial reaction is often something like, "Duh! When a person doesn't do well with inhibiting responses, vigilance, memory and planning - then OF COURSE the results will be that they do LESS WELL academically and occupationally than people who do NOT have such weak "executive functioning" skills.

BUT - I have a feeling I must, somehow, have missed a HUGE PART of this post. The POINT must be something about scientists being able to reach this conclusion by just looking at "psychometrically defined deficits." Please - What ARE those??

Sue

Different people define it differently. Generally, they are talking about the same thing.
1)response inhibition - to internally stop a potential future negative outcome...such as blurting out , hitting, getting angry...etc.
2)vigilance - simply means to stay on task which may be related to one,
3)working memory - the temporary memory that one has and which can be manipulated, before it is transfered to long term memory. For instance your teacher is talking about factoring trinomials and then mentions that two negatives make a positive. You hold that first bit of info in your head, add some complexity, and then it gets stored into long term memory. ADHDers forget the first bit or the second bit so the newly modified piece of info is never understood, nor is it remembered at that moment.
4)Planning - planning involves doing something through time. ADHDers are notorious for living in the moment.


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Once they've been screened and identified, I wonder what (if any) approach they would take any different than standard medication?
Barkley states that 10% of people don't respond to medication. Here are some solutions that I posted before.

response inhibition - medication, isolation, stimulus...such as music.
vigilance - one on one monitering/ encouragement, medication, reward
working memory - one on one teaching, to a lesser degree...medication
planning - one on one planning, excellent communication between home and school, consistency. No checklist, day planner, or electronic device will work with a kid without those three former things in place.

Would one of you be willing to help me understand the point? (I'm being SINCERE. I sometimes have trouble understanding information.)

I guess what I was unable to grasp from the original post is WHAT the "psychometrically defined deficits" are. Could someone tell me what they are (in as simple, but thorough, a way as possible, please).

Sue, don't feel badly about not understanding this point. This is statistical jargon, and they used this term rather strangely. I'm a psychologist who is trained in psychmetrics and I didn't get what they meant, either.

From wikipedia: "Psychometrics is the field of study concerned with the theory and technique of psychological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological) measurement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement), which includes the measurement of knowledge, abilities, attitudes, and personality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality) traits. The field is primarily concerned with the study of differences between individuals. It involves two major research tasks, namely: (i) the construction of instruments and procedures for measurement; and (ii) the development and refinement of theoretical approaches to measurement."

I think they probably created a short questionnaire with items tapping executive function problems. These would be things like "I have trouble planning." This would be instead of using objective measures of planning. This would be a type of planning simulation, in which somebody has to make a plan in order to figure out a solution to a particular problem. I'm not sure about this however, because their abstract is rather vague and I can't yet access the article through my university's online library.

The fact that EF was psychmetrically defined doesn't really matter -- the bottom line is that EF deficits are associated with poorer performance in other areas. If they did create a short questionnaire (as I suspect) that can be used in place of standard lab tests, then it might end up being a cheap and fast way to screen adults for EF problems that are predictive of negative life outcomes without having to put them through a long battery of boring tasks.

Once I have access to this full article I will probably have more to say about it. Their abstract is not extremely informative, and there are important details that need to be known in order to fully interpret their findings. Without knowing anything about their sample or whether they've controlled for other important factors, it's hard to tell if their findings really are meaningful or useful. For example, as others have alluded, are these medicated ADHD adults? Did they control for time since diagnosis? Has the psychometric measure been validated (e.g., does the questionnaire statistically "work" as well as the boring tasks)? Their findings might not be as exciting as they sound if they haven't dealt with these issues. As probably everybody can appreciate, these are small details that really matter in terms of functioning.

Sue -- Thomas Brown of Yale has an interesting discussion of executive functions in his book Attention Deficit Disorder. I found it interesting anyway!:)

Am I the only one for whom the findings of the study cited seems obvious? If you have problems with executive function, you are very likely going to be an underachiever. You're going to avoid situations which involve efficient managing of data, tasks which demand that you not forget one or two steps every time you undertake them, meetings which require that you not interrupt to offer decisions which seem obvious to you (but which are supposed to be arrived at through consensus), projects which stress complex organization and clear delineation of the connections between generalizations and the facts which support them and the ability to explain subtle distinctions. You are either going to avoid these situations (which occur in any occupation which might be appropriate for your intellectual abilities) or screw up enough times that you're going to give up.

I'm going to send this posting off to demonstrate my own lack of impulse control.

Why post the study? To point out that there are real and distinct problems with ADHD that go beyond not paying attention, or a kid not behaivng in class.

What are these distinct problems and can what outcomes are associated with them? This study took a unique way of looking at the problem. It took a look at the definitions associated with EFs and applied them to adaptive life functioning of the subjects. Would there be negative life outcomes for those with EF deficits as compared to the others strictly defined by the symptoms of ADHD? They seem to suggest this could be so.

Call it EF's or whatever you want to, but the lack of these skills (response inhibition, working memory, and planning) appear to be a major barrier for ADHDers. You could call it an impairment really, when you come to think of it.

Obvious to some...yeah,...to others these are new things to think about, and still for others...a bone of contention.

Labelling the conclusions "obvious" doesn't mean that I think the study is unnecessary or unworthy of being posted. The more quantitative information the better in the study of any mental characteristic.

It's just that right now I am constantly being hit in the face by the negative life outcomes of deficits of executive functioning. And not only my own. An "impairment"? Heavens, yes. And one that some parents refuse to treat as they would any other impairment -- with medical and educational help. That's me speaking as a former teacher. A frustrated former teacher.

Am I the only one for whom the findings of the study cited seems obvious? If you have problems with executive function, you are very likely going to be an underachiever. You're going to avoid situations which involve efficient managing of data, tasks which demand that you not forget one or two steps every time you undertake them, meetings which require that you not interrupt to offer decisions which seem obvious to you (but which are supposed to be arrived at through consensus), projects which stress complex organization and clear delineation of the connections between generalizations and the facts which support them and the ability to explain subtle distinctions. You are either going to avoid these situations (which occur in any occupation which might be appropriate for your intellectual abilities) or screw up enough times that you're going to give up.
...or get fired for any/all of these behaviors, thereby affecting one's socioeconomic status.

No, these findings also seemed obvious to me, but I study this stuff in kids and teenagers :) That's why I have additional questions about their methodology (I still wish they'd used less confusing terminology... I am very annoyed by this). If they were able to reveal these connections with a short questionnaire, then it will make it easier and cheaper to diagnose executive function dysfunction. This would be a very good thing.

As for whether article abstracts should be posted... I am of two minds. On one hand, the public should have access to this information in order to be informed about developments in the science of this and related disorders. But in my experiences as a psychological researcher and instructor, I usually (but not always) find that non-reseachers typically find the abstracts of less scientifically rigorous studies interesting or relevant. I would lump this current study into this less rigorous group at this time. In general, cutting-edge pieces with more sophisticated statistics and methods tend to scare away lay readers and students because they aren't easy to understand without specific training. This is unfortunate because these are the studies that usually end up having the most impact.

I've now read the article in question.

The "psychometric definition" piece was this: instead of diagnosing executive dysfunction through a clinical interview, they had participants complete multiple executive function tests (no questionnaires!), and used the results to construct groups. There is nothing unique about this procedure, which is in fact quite standard (however, I'd argue that calling it psychometric is a bit misleading). Any participant who scored above the clinical cutoff on at least 2 tests was categorized as having an "executive dysfunction." Anybody who didn't and had ADHD was in the "ADHD no EF dysfunction" group and anybody who didn't have ADHD or EF dysfunctions was categorized as a control subject. Then they just compared these 3 groups on a wide variety of other measures (e.g., who had had a speeding ticket in the past year, who had ever gone to jail, grades in school, etc.). A few of the other things they did were rather cheaty, but I won't go into detail about them here.

I have been curious about this subject field.
Some disorders seem to cause EF problems, by default (eg schizophrenia; dementias).

By that, i mean that they impairments that result can keep someone from planning, organizing, problem solving, etc.

Question #1: How often do ADHDers have EF? How often do people have EF but no ADHD?


Question #2: Can ADHD meds help those with EF impairments?

Question #3: What tests are used to detect EF deficits? (I only know of the Tower of London, the Trails A & Trails B tests and the WCST (?).

The term ‘psychometrically defined’ as used is meant to advertise the conditions of the study (Duh!).

Those conditions are pretty interesting, once you get under the jargon. These people are implicitly noting that their determinations of deficits of executive functions aren’t valid outside the context in which the measurements are made.

They’re also explicitly noting the deficit is a comparative, although it seems likely the point of relating an ‘independent’ measure of the level of success of life experience is intended to establish the sense of ‘deficit’ as an absolute.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t work. There are dozens of ways that the implied relationship is flawed; for example, if you look at just the literature addressing abstract measures of academic success, you won’t find much consensus on what the various metrics mean, let alone whether (and how exactly) they’re valid.

All you can find in this sort of study are relative results, relationships that essentially only say, “this numerical test result correlates in this way with this other numerical test result.”

Nothing about this sort of analysis indicates the numerical results are valid, individually or taken together. Certainly no conclusions can be made about what they might mean, and especially not what the relationship might mean.

Sorry to say, these guys aren’t really contributing much that’s new; this mostly verifies that different statistical measures can be correlated, without saying what such measures might represent. Underneath the emotional terminology like ‘deficit’ and ‘academic success’, their statements are trying to reflect those limitations of the work, which is why it seemed confusing.

* * * * *

We would be a lot more impressed if they had taken the really high road, and banished the hot button terminology entirely. But then, nobody would have gotten excited that it might mean we can finally understand something about AD/HD.

Studies that seek to establish the validity of EFs as an element of real brain function (rather than simply an arbitrary model of severely limited utility) are going to fail. EFs don’t exist, anymore than single women twenty-one to thirty really prefer red automobiles.

It’s long been understood that people choose car colors for reasons unrelated to preference for a particular color. If you survey for color preference and paint your production run of cars accordingly, you’ll wind up with too few of some colors and too many of others.

You can certainly prove your survey was right, but that doesn’t have any impact on what color a prospective buyer will want. It’s the same with the models that include EFs; they have limited use in a certain kind of analytical reasoning about behavior, but they aren’t how our brains work.

You can prove that they exist to the extent that reliable measurements of EF can be made. But like measures of color preference, showing EFs can be measured doesn’t mean they’re real. It only means the behavior that is being interpreted as related to EFs is real.

Nobody’s arguing that, of course, or that the tests can reliably and repeatedly put a number related to EFs on that behavior. But anyone hoping to understand AD/HD in terms of EFs is wasting their time, and raising those hopes is at best a waste of time and resources, and at worst downright cruel.


--Tom and Kay

I've now read the article in question.


..and you can't share some of it like even the meaty parts? :)

What are these distinct problems and can what outcomes are associated with them? This study took a unique way of looking at the problem. It took a look at the definitions associated with EFs and applied them to adaptive life functioning of the subjects

Well hate the throw in a monkey wrench into this little assumption. . . . .that wasn’t very truthful . . . . okay so I don’t really hate it enough to quit it but exactly who determines functioning any way? What are the exact criteria of functioning?

Planning well some times planning isn’t all that it is cracked up to be. . . . pick up a board in your back yard find a poisonous snake coiled what do you do? Let me give the reader a clue you had better have some thing besides a plan because formulating a plan will get your butt snake bit. If one doesn’t wish to get snake bit one had better be more impulsive than the snake. . . . :rolleyes:






Would there be negative life outcomes for those with EF deficits as compared to the others strictly defined by the symptoms of ADHD? They seem to suggest this could be so.

Negative out come is defined by?? Are we determining success by annual income, college grades or avoiding snake bites? Specific please because what is negative to you may not be negative to me.

Please don’t go the educational route because that song has already been played before and any one who has ventured beyond his own door step knows that education doesn’t guarantee success, it may increase some people chances but it by no means is the only road to success nor should it be measured as such. :soapbox:






You're going to avoid situations which involve efficient managing of data, tasks which demand that you not forget one or two steps every time you undertake them, meetings which require that you not interrupt to offer decisions which seem obvious to you (but which are supposed to be arrived at through consensus), projects which stress complex organization and clear delineation of the connections between generalizations and the facts which support them and the ability to explain subtle distinctions.

Managing data doesn’t require short term or working memory it requires memory yes but it can be done in long term memory and more efficiently so. . . . .do you have a clue how much of an advantage one has if every thing is committed to longer term memory banks?. . . lets just say sacrificing short term for increased long term is really a more effective as “working memory” deficits can be over come by a pen and piece of paper where as lack of long term deficit is over come by???


While I am on this subject what kind of bloomin job requires all this stuff? Generalizations are normally useless in fields requiring precision .I shall await an answer as I believe my point has be made in this area. I am presently posting unmediated so I am already getting board with this part of my answer. . ready to move on . . . . . . . .





I usually (but not always) find that non-reseachers typically find the abstracts of less scientifically rigorous studies interesting or relevant. I would lump this current study into this less rigorous group at this time.

As a non- researcher I would prefer to begin with the abstracts but easy access to the original report the one with the methodology science stuff available should I have questions regarding how they came to the conclusions sited. I am a non-researcher with strange ides but not a foreigner to studies.






Any participant who scored above the clinical cutoff on at least 2 tests was categorized as having an "executive dysfunction." Anybody who didn't and had ADHD was in the "ADHD no EF dysfunction" group and anybody who didn't have ADHD or EF dysfunctions was categorized as a control subject. Then they just compared these 3 groups on a wide variety of other measures (e.g., who had had a speeding ticket in the past year, who had ever gone to jail, grades in school, etc.). A few of the other things they did were rather cheaty, but I won't go into detail about them here.

Your brief explanation above shed excellent light upon this cheesy method. It does not seem like a very accurate method of arriving at conclusions –unless scientific accuracy is being compared to those conclusions derived by playing pin the tail on the donkey!






You can prove that they exist to the extent that reliable measurements of EF can be made. But like measures of color preference, showing EFs can be measured doesn’t mean they’re real. It only means the behavior that is being interpreted as related to EFs is real.

Agreed! EF is merely a description of a specified set of tasks- I read an entire book titled “The Executive Brain” it is an analogy used mostly in neuropsychological fields.






Nobody’s arguing that, of course, or that the tests can reliably and repeatedly put a number related to EFs on that behavior. But anyone hoping to understand AD/HD in terms of EFs is wasting their time, and raising those hopes is at best a waste of time and resources, and at worst downright cruel.

Because they keep looking at the same behavior of coe rse they will keep finding the same results. If I keep pouring urine on my feet I will keep finding wet smelly feet! (duh)


Honestly I haven’t personally read this study I would say that any one who had “functioning EF” even if ADD traits were present and from my understanding even with the diagnosis of ADD those who performed at or above a certain level was automatically considered a control now that isn’t very accurate (IMHO) All you are studying with this is people who have problems with certain portions of their functioning also have problems with specific task. Which would have what to do with ADD?. It also over looks the huge expressions of ADD traits among individuals.

Some of my fellow members complain of having problems with long term memory however I have an excellent long term memory. However me and my fellow long term memory challenged co-horts both have ADD! Some others who have ADD also have OCD while others have the exact opposite of obsessive tendencies Hello?


I can see some of the EF stuff but I personally believe they are attempting simplifying this set of traits we call ADHD/ADD! I think the dig will need to go beyond EF if one hope to encompass the entire spectrum of people currently diagnosed as being ADD/ADHD. Some thing simply ain’t going down right but unsure where just like those studying ADD are missing a piece of the puzzle but then we are talking my opinion here and I am no scientist just some person who has ADD and comes from a family of ADDers. What do I know about having ADD any way? - :p !

Can someone provide a link to the article? Please :) Or PM me with it? I have this thing called "ADD," I might forget to come back to this thread, though I find it extremely interesting.

Oh I'd love a copy of the article too but the good Dr. has decided not to share and then make some quick judgements on the findings. Meanwhile, the rest of us are in the dark about the contents in the study.

Oh I'd love a copy of the article too but the good Dr. has decided not to share and then make some quick judgements on the findings. Meanwhile, the rest of us are in the dark about the contents in the study.

Unless one has some sort of university connection access to the full study requires payment. I can do so much more with twenty bucks,(14 pounds) besides there has got to be a freebie way of continuing this discussion.

Should we approach the question of how much of an influence would executive functions have on out comes if they do not exist?

Here or another thread?

According to my ADD memory There was some thing mentioned about ADDers inability to reach long term goals? Only the boring ones, the novel or impossible goals happen to be our specialty (IMHO-of coa rse)

...ADDers inability to reach long term goals? *Only* the boring ones, the novel or impossible (->-to->- next-to impossible} goals happen to be our specialty (IMHO-of coa rse)... { sb. }

Unless one has some sort of university connection access to the full study requires payment. I can do so much more with twenty bucks,(14 pounds) besides there has got to be a freebie way of continuing this discussion. I have access through a uni connection and would repost it, except that it would be considered bad or otherwise illegal. I think it's a copyright infringement. We're granted access for our own personal use and cannot redistribute anything. It sucks, but it's the law and in this case, it's for our own good.

Sorry :( BTW, it's not the individual author but the journal that decides what should be charged for the article. I'd redistribute my own for free if the journals would let me, but alas they usually make me sign something that says I won't even post it on my own academic website.

...ADDers inability to reach long term goals? *Only* the boring ones, the novel or impossible (->-to->- next-to impossible} goals happen to be our specialty (IMHO-of coa rse)...

ADHDers generally seek stimulus. If seeking stimulus over time, gets you to the long term goal, then no problem achieving long term goal. ie if making art is stimulating to the ADHDer...then there is no barrier in becoming an artist. Are ADHDers more creative, or do they just gravitate towards stimulating jobs?

Where do are ADHDers employed? In the 1)armed forces, 2)stimulating jobs such as the arts, and also the 3)self employed.

1 because some organizes life for you
2 because it is stimulating, and organization over time is not a key trait that they look for in these fields. They want a skill or knowledge base.
3 because no one is looking over your shoulder to see if you are organized...or you can also hire people to organize over time, for you

I have access through a uni connection and would repost it, except that it would be considered bad or otherwise illegal. I think it's a copyright infringement. We're granted access for our own personal use and cannot redistribute anything. It sucks, but it's the law and in this case, it's for our own good.

Credit should be given where due, and by all means don't break any rules. Having access to the entire article really isn't important enough to do that sort of thing.

Besides I am ADD going around an obstacle another "specialty"!

ADHDers generally seek stimulus. If seeking stimulus over time, gets you to the long term goal, then no problem achieving long term goal.

Oh Scuro almost got it but now all you got to do is flip it around. Image rule, the image always mirror appearance to real thing man . . . .

Do you determine your goals or do they determine you?

Independent yet interdependent


Where do are ADHDers employed?

In many variations of professions and vocations.


In the 1)armed forces, 2)stimulating jobs such as the arts, and also the 3)self employed.

Or as . . . . . . .. . . . ..
Computer programmers
Teachers
Researchers
Radiology
Nurses
Computer graphics
Internet security
Radiology technicians
Genetics/biology
Electricians
Law enforcement
Counselors
Marketing research
Engineers
Collections supervisors
Truck drivers
Waitresses
Analyst
Business owners / partners

Those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head from this community alone.

Does our ADD determine our expression / or/ do we determine how our ADD is expressed?

Mead...I made some observations based on literature. If you want to turn them into philosophical questions, you have every right to do that. But are all my statements that are unpalatable to you, going to be followed by questions from now on?

Um, I'm an accountant. It's not fun though.

This article made me wonder: are these executive functions and their corresponding "neural mechanisms" less developed in people with ADD (e.g. a stunted limb)? Or are the biological systems by which these executive functions operate just as physically present in someone with ADD but not functioning properly? I know someone who would score off the charts in terms of executive function and I can't help but wonder if this is because maybe his brain "grew" in this way, and that someone like me has a smaller number of these types of synapses, networks, and what have you. Of course I can take my medication and function better, but is this like pumping jet fuel into a Honda Civic or is it more like correcting a chemical imbalance within an otherwise normally developed structure. I think the theories out there (correct me if I'm wrong) usually try to suggest the latter (e.g. the "using the glasses to correct vision" analogy)-- but I don't think that can be entirely true. It's obvious that brains develop differently. Just compare a left-brained mathematical genius to a right-brained abstract painter. The brain structures must be different on almost every level in terms of physical development, with maybe even some parts almost non-existent in one vs. the other. What do you guys think? Chemical imbalance or a different (insufficient) biological structure?

Hello,

For me whatever your initial physical or mental condition, the flow of adult life determine how well you can counter the negative aspects of ADD.

Whatever your work is, you need enough free time, enough money saving to be able to compensate your ADD , or to try to....

Another crucial factor to "life outcome" , for me , is information availability...
All type of information from international news to basic fact of daily life ( like the ones you can find on about.org ). As an ADDer i can't retain enough fact from verbal communications in my work or in my family...the same problem bugs me dealing with official papers or important decisions ( ex : changing professionnal orientation or choosing a specialisation ).

So since i was a teen, i try to compensate by reading a lot of news and a ( very big ) lot of books.

Sincerely when today i look back at the past years ( i am 40 ) i think that if i haven't read so much i wouldn't have been able to adapt to the professionnal and to the social life in the modern world.

But are all my statements that are unpalatable to you, going to be followed by questions from now on?

I don't know I am making this up as I go along. Narrowing ADDers down to a few professional choices or career categories is inaccurate having nothing to do with my preferences one way or the other.

I present questions to give readers some things to consider. Responses are a reflection of the person doing the responding nothing more, nothing less.





Chemical imbalance or a different (insufficient) biological structure?

The short answer is they do not know for sure.

CHADD Pathophysiology (Brain Differences in AD/HD) (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/causes/pathophysiology)

The above site will given an out line of what many medical researchers believe to be the cause.

I don't know I am making this up as I go along. Narrowing ADDers down to a few professional choices or career categories is inaccurate having nothing to do with my preferences one way or the other.



It's not like I am trying to guide anyone. I'm not. It is just information.

If I tell you that ADHDers are impulsive will I hear about how I limit behaviour choices? Better yet, will I hear questions like: "does ADHD determine our impulsiveness or do we determine how our impulsiveness is expressed"?

Surely we can talk a basic ADHD vocabulary without this nitpicking. Honestly, is it a surprise to you that ADHDers are often self-employed or in the Arts?

Honestly, is it a surprise to you that ADHDers are often self-employed or in the Arts?

Actually no it doesn't surprise me when ADDers are self employed are in the arts, however, it doesn't surprise me when non-ADDers are self employed or in the arts either.

One of the ways my ADHD effects me Scuro is I have what is called lack of boundary isolation ability. I do not naturally categorize, any thing or any one really. I do not have any pre conceived notions about how people should be . I do not expect ADDers to be a certain way nor do I expect non-ADDers to be a certain way. People are going to be how they are and they will do jobs they choose no matter what I think they should or should not do People behave the way they behave a part from what I think or feel, or how I believe they should be. I do not see any reason to acquire these pre-conceived notions either. Categorizing people for me is a waste of time, although I do understand most people find the activity useful.

I understand you categorize much better than I do. Ever stopped to consider the notion that I ask you questions to see how you will answer because I want to see how you understand things? The tone used in responses leads me to believe you think I have some sort of hidden agenda. Not much hidden about me, what you see is what you get, although I understand not every one is this way.

Ever consider the idea I am simply curious as to what thinking pattern leads you to the conclusions you come to?. How you perceive your own ADD not just some stuff you copied from an article, but what the person behind the user name Scuro thinks. I understand you as one who sees ADD as separate from the person who has it. If you see this aspect differently than chances are you see many other things differently as well.

I do not take your opposite perspective personally it has nothing to do with me. I can and have become quiet reactive when I feel some one is trying to force their beliefs, ideas, or way s of thinking down my throat because that bothers me a lot. The fact you are different is more of a curiosity than a reason to get upset. The differences them selves are not a problem for me, normally the problem arises by the way these differences are handled on both sides (this would include my own).

Hey, Scuro and Mead, thank you for this exchange. I've learned a lot from both of you---and now you've just clarified something that has bugged me for years, which is namely why any discussion with my very intelligent mom turned philosophical & reactive. (Mead, I like the term 'reactive'. It's a great descriptive & explanation.) Reading this thread was just like being home again. ;) And super educational.

OK, now having gotten past that major "AHA!" moment...which has nothing to do with this thread... here's my question:

I thought executive function impairment was the primary cause of non-trauma related ADHD. Am I right that this study implies a significant number of people with ADHD symptoms without executive function impairment? Is it possible for me to have executive function impairment without attention deficit? I'm lost, somebody pls explain....