What do the male members think about the men's section of ADD Forums? Should it be for men only?

Should only men be able to post in the men's forum?

I think it would be okay for a women to post. They might have a better perspective if it is a topic about women.

Too much testosterone undiluted by the fairer sex and some things never come to light.

The focus should probably mostly remain on issues as they relate to being male, and there may be issues that seem "only workable from inside a male head" but I would suspect that to be more of an illusion than reality.

I think this might be an appropriate place to bring up th eissue that people of indistinct gender, transgendered individuals, and the like, may have both shared and unique experiences with either or both groups.

Making them welcomed, and and thereby helping to reduce the very real elevated suicide rate within the group, might be an open minded and generous thing to do...

certainly, I've seen no evidence to support that transgendered individuals are not also ADHD.


however, the same question asked of "both" genders is not the same question. Men arrange themselves hierarchically, women are community makers. These trends have very real implications, and are not mirror images of each other...

There fore I might imagine the impact of women in a mens discussion to be very different from the impact of men in a womens' discussion.

This will be impossible to enforce, wouldn't it?

I was at a forum once that had a "women only" section, but men got into it by signing up for new accounts and claiming to be women...

Some things are best requested, and explicitly NOT enforced. IMHO

Two women have posted "women only" in the women's equivalent to this poll... so I have decided to stop going into that forum on my own, regardless of whether or not the admins bar men from it.

I believe that people here should be given 100% respect and space. God knows many of us haven't been given that in real life...

I think it is ok for these two sections to be asymmetrical.

Would anyone be troubled by the women's section being women only, and the mens section being open?

I can see why someone would want to be sure the opposite sex never heard some things they might like to discuss with their own sex, and I also hold the opinion that the opposite sex's viewpoint can be helpful. Each sex has it's own particular brand of craziness and illogic about certain things.

I'd think the easiest way to be sure the opposite sexes weren't seeing your comments would be to pm people directly. Don't know if the admins can restrict a thread to male or female only, but as pointed out before, it can easily be circumvented. Although it's not as easy to impersonate the other sex as you might imagine... men and women are not differentiated by just our parts, but by our entire physical makeup, brains and thought patterns.

I used to enjoy exposing people in chat rooms who were posing as the opposite sex... it was a fun mental challenge, picking out the subtle clues when they slipped up.

Aforce

Are you opposed to working for NSA? or CIA? I think they would tend to overlook a great deal for some abilites like that.

I actually know a woman who went to work for NSA... She told me very little about her job, but plenty about the testing and schooling.

seriously, you might give it a shot.

Actually, it's pretty easy- at least for me. I'd just ask them for a picture, and then when they sent one, which was usually of some 9+ girl in some state of undress, just ask them for one with their clothes ON. That was usually the stumper.

Other clues were if the pic was an odd size, or a gif (who saves their pics as a gif?) indicating they had saved them from some website.

I think the Mens Section should be FOR Men. I would be Troubled with the men's section being opened. Why should the Womens section be closed to just them and the mens section be open to all? Obviously it is impossible to control completely, but many people will respect the sections.

Transgendered issues? Make it its own section if there is a need.

Originally posted by jimmmaaa
I think the Mens Section should be FOR Men.


I would be Troubled with the men's section being opened. Why should the Womens section be closed to just them and the mens section be open to all?



Because this is not a tit for tat thing, IMHO. If you are independently desiring the men's section to be closed, for any reason or no reason, I can respect that.

But if the only hang up is that the womens section is closed? i think that is a patently bad criteria, unrelated to any substance regarding whether the men's side should be open or not.

I voiced WHY I thought it could make sense to have un-identical rules for the two sections.


Your question "why" implies either a failure to have read the previous posts, or a failure to agree with the presented postion (your absolute right.)


Still, i am uncomfortable retaliating with restrictive rules that we may not need. I don't need EVERYTHING to be identical for it to be equivalent.


Obviously it is impossible to control completely, but many people will respect the sections.

Transgendered issues? Make it its own section if there is a need.

Since there ARE transgendered individuals, there is a question of how to define "need" or conversely "no need."

a force for good....I agree that women and men often think differently, but I disagree that its a part of our make up. I think that socialization has a role to play as well...like anything biological, there are innate structures in the brain that predertermine human action, but those innate structures are influenced by the environment as well. Education, Socialization etc. is often determined by those inpower. our very thought patterns as we grow up depend on external stimuli as they unfold and become more and more complex...Its the same with ADD...we are trained often from the moment we are diagnosed that our brains are "wrong" or we have some sort of disability...but, its merely a difference in the way we are wired internally...Using medications we are sometimes able to participate in social situations in the manner that th greater population (them linear thinkers) are able to particpate, or would prefer us to be able to participate...eventually, this training becomes part of us...we begin to believe that we are different or wrong...external influences in the education system are not designed for ADDers, much like a lot of the way society is run is not designed for women to become empowered...I am aware that ADDers are actually, to some degree actually different ijn our brain wiring....but from birth, we have had external stimuli or lack thereof in some cases that have brought us to this point...I thinkthe same thin goes women and men....I think we are all pretty much born with the same potential, but through socialization we become what we are...I think the brain is quite malleable and I think in some cases we can change our mental wiring by means beyond medication....although it is hardto do that when the majority of society wants us to do things their way.....same with women....its a power game....anyway, I weclome both women and men to reply to this and I think that women should have an input here, but at the same time, should realize that their input will be filtered through our minds as males and thus through the years and years of socialization we have gone through to become "Male"...in much the same way...I think we should be allowed to post in the women's forum and of course, keep those very same considerations in mind...I think healthy questioning and discussion of each other's experiences as women/men/ADDers/Linear thinkers can be very helpful and a great educational experience....thats all I have to say about that...

Originally posted by missing_cues
a force for good....I agree that women and men often think differently, but I disagree that its a part of our make up.

You ignore the implications of different nueronal connection patterns.

Different hardware makes for different processing, even if there is overlap in funtion.

Female brains have a "bushy" connectivity, whereas male brains are very "tree structured" in form at the level of connections between brain cells.

This has both technical and obvious ramifications on the processing that occurs, and it has been documented.

I think it is interesting to me that so many are quick to protect the right of people to issue opinions that fly in the face of good documentation, and are so willing to repress oppinions offered consistent with known information. This is a difficult fact of the real world for me.

I believe in opinion, and the right to differ. I simply don't believe opinion to be the right word for the adoption of arbitrary positions.

Originally posted by missing_cues
a force for good....I agree that women and men often think differently, but I disagree that its a part of our make up.


I think that socialization has a role to play as well...like anything biological, there are innate structures in the brain that predertermine human action, but those innate structures are influenced by the environment as well. Education, Socialization etc. is often determined by those inpower. our very thought patterns as we grow up

depend on external stimuli as they unfold and become more and more complex...


Its the same with ADD...we are trained often from the moment we are diagnosed that our brains are "wrong" or we have some sort of disability...but,

its merely a difference in the way we are wired internally...

Using medications we are sometimes able to participate in social situations in the manner that th greater population (them linear thinkers) are able to particpate, or would prefer us to be able to participate...eventually, this training becomes part of us...we begin to believe that we are different or wrong...external influences in the education system are not designed for ADDers, much like a lot of the way society is run is not designed for women to become empowered...I am aware that ADDers are actually, to some degree actually different ijn our brain wiring....but from birth, we have had external stimuli or lack thereof in some cases that have brought us to this point...I thinkthe same thin goes women and men....I think we are all pretty much born with the same potential, but through socialization we become what we are...

I think the brain is quite malleable and I think in some cases we can change our mental wiring by means beyond medication...

.although it is hardto do that when the majority of society wants us to do things their way.....same with women....its a power game....anyway, I weclome both women and men to reply to this and

I think that women should have an input here, but at the same time, should realize that their input will be filtered through our minds as males and thus through the years and years of socialization we have gone through to become "Male"

...in much the same way...I think we should be allowed to post in the women's forum and of course, keep those very same considerations in mind...I think healthy questioning and discussion of each other's experiences as women/men/ADDers/Linear thinkers can be very helpful and a great educational experience....thats all I have to say about that...

Would you like to try this again?

Do you really mean that your difficulty STARTED when you were diagnosed? Really? Mine certainly started earlier than that! And later it sounds like you say so too!


As explicitly stated you contradict yourself all the way through.

It isn't wiring; It is just wiring.

It = a problem; It does not equal a problem, there is no problem, other than society!

It does change under social pressure; it doesn't change under social pressure.

We are the result of incorrect social pressure changing us, alone; social pressure alone can't change us.

Our ADHD is real. Our ADHD is not real - social pressure is the problem alone, we are not "disabled" (speak for your self!)

Argh!!! (running, in a psuedo random pattern, clutching head) I am SO confused!!!!


I could imagine a "properly constrained" path through this, but it doesn't seem that, without working it out yourself, that you would be vey likely to agree to it.

Easy Wheel - it's not all bad - just some confusion as to why the "problem" is a problem or isn't (however one likes it). No need to take the post apart. I refer to a former conversation here: don't oversteer - just nudge the nose in the general direction with the idea that later you may do it again to further move towards the desired goal.

No offence intended to you, missing_, but you seem to have repurposed an analogy to a different "thing" and then saw a connection between the two "things" that was never there in the first place - at least not with the scope of your post that is.

Also, no offense intended to you, Wheel - but your post reminded me of our earlier conversation as I realized that I often have that type of reaction to a conversation where I feel there is some "incongruity" within a comparisson. I am consciously working to stop that by applying the river/canoe theory and under this concept I probably should not have typed this post either - I just couldn't help myself.

Although it isn't beyond my conceptualization that this post may also be repeating the exact logical error that I suspect missing_ has made.

Why...

An illuminating post. Thank you.

Not sure if you mean that the canoe/river theory has passed a small test or that in fact now you are certain that I really am a complete ibecile. Either way - I'm glad I posted :-D.

Originally posted by why
Easy Wheel -
YEP
it's not all bad -
YEP
just some confusion as to why the "problem" is a problem or isn't (however one likes it).
YEP

No need to take the post apart.

NOPE. (I can't tell up from backwards myself without taking it apart. It is a limit I hit within myself. I assume it (whatever) is a well polished construct, and I've badly misconstrued something, accounting for my disorientation. If, in fact, it is a quick thought expressing more "spirit" and less "technical accuracy" my attempts to "comprehend" just flabbergast me more. in the process, who ever the unlucky sole is who has uttered the proposal starts running for cover. Thus the three leading "yeps.")


I refer to a former conversation here: don't oversteer - just nudge the nose in the general direction with the idea that later you may do it again to further move towards the desired goal.

(this requires a level of recognition of scope that does not yet, at that time, exist for me. I am, at that point, still too disoriented to take that "long view." I am not yet, really, at that point, confident that I have discovered a potential error in someone else's thinking... I'm still struggling with the proposition that they are right and i am terribly confused!

this is fingering the problem space though! The solution hides near here!)

No offense intended to you, missing_, but you seem to have repurposed an analogy to a different "thing" and then saw a connection between the two "things" that was never there in the first place - at least not with the scope of your post that is.

Also, no offense intended to you, Wheel - but your post reminded me of our earlier conversation as I realized that I often have that type of reaction to a conversation where I feel there is some "incongruity" within a comparisson.

Suspected or documented incongruity flings me over the edge of the cliff faster than I can say "shazzahm!"

I am consciously working to stop that by applying the river/canoe theory and under this concept I probably should not have typed this post either - I just couldn't help myself.

Although it isn't beyond my conceptualization that this post may also be repeating the exact logical error that I suspect missing_ has made.

I don't think so... but the last transition lost its antecedent for me.

It seemed like your post deserved more attention than i first gave...

Merci. We try to please here a la maison Why. All efforts expended at our establishment are to serve well balanced meals that satisfy rather than fill and contribute maximally to ones health and enjoyment. Bon apetit and please don't be shy to tell the chef if something has displeased, although equally important he does enjoy ecouragement even it is offered only out of tradition or politeness. As the hour is late we must close our doors but please be sure to keep us in mind for you next family afair or corporate function. Au revoir.

(this requires a level of recognition of scope that does not yet, at that time, exist for me. I am, at that point, still too disoriented to take that "long view." I am not yet, really, at that point, confident that I have discovered a potential error in someone else's thinking... I'm still struggling with the proposition that they are right and i am terribly confused!

I had some time to think about this and perhaps what happens to you is that you are obsessed with seeking "the truth" (whatever that may be) but at the same time have little confidence that you can identify it - hence the above.

Bringing this back to the river/canoe theory - you steer so much and so ferverently that all this effort and movement disorients you and you lose sight of the destination or "the truth" as it may be. Perhaps if you tried to make small adjustments over a longer period of time you would be more confident of recognizing "the truth" (as it stays within your vision) and consequently not reacting so "violently" (meaning "with vigour")as you try and point the nose of the canoe at the destination. When paddling a canoe - once you've learned not to oversteer you find that you move more quickly and expand less effort. I'm not saying that at some point you won't make a booboo and get a little too wild, but at least you won't be doing that all the time.

Did this make sense?

It makes sense, but it isn't what is happening to me, though it maybe what happens to others or me in othe situations.

it's like "giving up on things."

When you see a "lost cause" giving up is what you are SUPPOSED to do... "Don't throw good money after bad, etc.

Now, if through confusion, I am presented with FALSE or MISLEADING information that non-the-less looks like "this is a lost cause" what is a mother to do?

I can't second guess MYSELF. That ends driving off cliffs that one KNOWS are there because the information to support STOPPING is countermanded!

So.

What say you here? < smile >

Perhaps a mother will allow the infraction, seeking only to prevent the most dire of consequences but allowing all others to serve as education.

It make take many painful experiences before the lesson is learned, or even it may come to be that what mom saw as a painful consequence ends up being a thing of positivity! Either way so long as "it" lives there's always hope for a positive outcome even if that outcome is incomprehensible to mother.

Keep the boat afloat and enjoy the scenery - just because your headed somewhere doesn't mean that the place you're at isn't as good or even better. As said before - do not be so commited to the outcome of a thing...

Originally posted by why


I had some time to think about this and perhaps what happens to you is that you are obsessed with seeking "the truth" (whatever that may be) but at the same time have little confidence that you can identify it - hence the above.



No.

But i do care to know what is going on!

Care too much?

Certainly the Zen would say so!

"what is going on" - isn't that another way of saying "the truth"

Originally posted by why
"what is going on" - isn't that another way of saying "the truth"

< tired smile >

there seems to be a difference to me...

WOW - that must be the "cognition" disconnect that you and I experience all the time - just when I feel I am about to bridge the divide between us it becomes obvious that I haven't - this is very likely the root of the problem...

You know, I know i am broken.

I could be wrong.

You may have completed the highway. I May just be confused by the sign b the highway that says South! Memphis when I think I'm headed to New Orleans....

No...not completed anything...I am ADD you know :) However, the strategy that I've outlined elsewhere seems to be paying off. Also, because the strategy does not ask for more effort but rather less effort it may avoid the fate that all long-term projects ADDers attempt seem to meet. The most difficult aspect - is having enough faith in the cosmos to relinquish control - all this means is that it's scary to let the river cary you into the unknown...

Why,

I think we should start (with the explicit invitation of all others to chime in) our own thread about control.

Why and Wheel1975: To control or not to control, that is not Quite the question!

Apologies to Shakespear!

I'm not sure it's neccessary to debate this question. I just hope you keep it in mind going forward. This was a very difficult concept for me to grasp because it seems too simple. It took a long time to recognize it. So just keep this idea in mind and also the river/canoe theory as a means of dealing with this. You may not see merit in it for a long time - 'haps never - but I believe that this is as close to "the truth" or "what is really happening" as I ever gotten to because the results (for me at least) have been very positive. So put it in your back pocket somewhere, give it a corner of your desk and glance at it once in a while - let it in - even if you don't trust it - it asks nothing of you - there's nothing to lose but you just might gain......

wouldn't hurt to really go canoeing either... have the real out door experience?

Who wants to go?

Used to go atleast a couple times a year for several days at a time - now waiting for the kid to be old enough to take along.

I think we should have a world wide conference of board members, to do physical things that provide life leassons we have personally valued, for others ...

Everybody meet for a week of trekking, cooking, writing, building, etc.

"David the site Janitor" this sounds like a project for the big man himself!

Well, it's like this: So long as there's a Women with ADD/ADHD forum, then regardless of whether this (men's) forum is getting many posts, we need to keep it 'Men Only' as a matter of principle.


Really, though the trend in recent years is to celebrate 'Women Only' things and to attack 'Men Only', so if we can't have our golf courses, we can at least have this forum.

I agree with that sentiment in some ways James....
Not in any way bashing woman, I think men are not encouraged to meet together and there is always a double standard about groups that bothers me. Often woman are welcome at the mens' group but not the other way around. For instance at my church we have two "mens" activities that woman are welcome at, the Shooters Club and the Motorcyle riding club, but men are NOT welcome at any of their activities, they are closed. Now I don't go to either the Shooters club or riding club but it bothers me that the mens' ministry sponsors both these events and they are open.

It really is more than that though and a deeper societal issue. Just look at the poll on this post: 66% or responders said it is OK for women to post here. PLEASE HEAR ME ON ONE POINT: I AM NOT A WOMAN BASHER! I just think that there has been a cost to men for this idea that they shouldn't meet in groups. Men DO need comraderie with JUST other men. They have issues that they want to discuss as well without the other gender involved.

Well I think the Men's section should be ONLY for the MEN and the womans section should be ONLY for the men. I have some other points to make but they are not very developed and I don't have my sources so I will wait on making them.

James,

We are not only namesakes, but of a single mind on this issue. Common you guys who voted against our own (exclusive) forum, you're making me sick. Just as women have "Women's Issue", so do we. What's good for the gander is good for the goose. Bros, that voting poll makes me want to puke. Show some backbone and stand up for yourselves. That voting poll is political correctness in action -- you guys can't really believe deep down that a double standard should exist, but that's what comes out through your culturally, socially, and politically emasculated politically correct ideological filters.

Yes, I write this half tongue-in-cheek.. but just half. The othe half is serious. Keep it men only. Men.

I'm curious as to why there aren't more men speaking up.

Okay, I voted at first that I didn't care... but I have since changed my mind; I think we should have segregated sex forums.

But I'm curious as to why some of you guys seem to hate me for being secure enough to share my problems in front of women, and thinking that you all should be as well...

1) What's the point of having a male-only forum if women are permitted to read it? It kind of defeats the purpose (of sharing our sorrows without women listening).

2) What's the punishment to be imposed on women that "join in", if we do have a gender-specific thread?

3) Frankly, I don't see any double standard. It would seem that *MEN ONLY* on a thread would pretty much eliminate all but the most annoying of women from posting. Then she would get shouted down by the men on the forum, and, hopefully, never post again.

4) Who hates waywardclam? I'm not sure I caught that...

"Me" above should be read to include "Everybody who voted to allow women to see what is in the Men's Forum".

The point of of the male forum itself is in debate. IS it in fact a men-only forum, or is it a forum to discuss issues relating to men?

Quite frankly, I see advantages to both. Maybe we should have both.

Who is to say women won't have something useful to say in a discussion about a man's issue?

The ADD Forums Admins are working on adding a password-only section to the forums. Once we have that capability, if Men of the ADD Forums want their own, password-protected section, we will set it up. There will likely be such section(s) for the women of the ADD Forums as well.

Hey Paul,

No one hates you.

It does not seem possible to control people from reading the Men Only post, but they shouldn't post in a Men Only forum.

BIG, if you guys have any trouble setting this up, I have contacts at several geek/technician message boards that have restricted subsections in them. I can probably get you some pretty knowledgeable help if you want.

P.S. if we are going to go ahead with this, may I suggest considering the same thing for the Teens Only section? Or maybe giving a vote to that effect?

good idea clam..

Once we have the capability, we will poll the Forums membership.

I am one of the people who voted it was okay for women to be in the mens only. I think after thinking about it there may be some issues that you do not women reading. It does not bother me to have women in this area. I do beleive the teen area should be restricted.

I'll entertain that concept, can you give an explicit example?

Here's a hypothetical example of something someone might not want women to see.

Someone here at the forums with extreme social anxiety, particularly in the romantic department, might have a great deal of fear of or resentment towards women, and might want a "safe" area to discuss things with men that would be guaranteed to be 100% female free.

Also... it would provide an area to explore subjects that would potentially be offensive to many women, without offending any of them. As for an example of that... the first one that comes to mind might be someone who is defining sexual stereotypes, and is critical of women for some "common" perceived defect of theirs...

I think there are differences between:
women being invited to publicly post,
women being invited not to post,
and women being excluded from reading.

I think this is NOT a place where I would like to see any walls stronger than paper walls, and any restraint greater than courtesy.

Even "difficult" issues and opinions ned to be "acceptable" in discussion.

I think secrecy is an error in the context of this, and most, forums of discourse.

I would like to see a tolerance for and patience with all. It seems that broader policy is or should be set by the owner and the administration.

As a user of this board I'd like to think there is room enough here to embrace all the needs of the community. I'd like to think there was a home for us all here, regardless of our needs regarding privacy.

Cheers! Ian.

I agree with Wheel and Ian. I think honesty and openness can be very beneficial. I think we can benefit from knowing what women think and do that we have no clue about as they could benifit from knowing those things. I think if you did not want women to read it you could ask them not to. I have been very open about who I am in this forum. It is a first for me and has helped me a lot.

hmmm I guess I wasn't clear. Sorry biking guy to lead you to believe I supported an open forum. What I would hope would be tolerated, is that there be room here for private forums as well as public.. in as many configurations as the owner and administration thought suitable.

Safe havens are sometimes necessary. I've encouraged my girls to seek outside help regarding my caustic tongue and over the years it's enabled them to stand firm in the face of my abuse. This change was only possible with a safe environment to flush out the details. I'm much less prone to snappy comments and much more sensitive to the kids needs. There is nothing like an emerging healthy attitude to wake an adult to the error of his ways..

This didn't come quickly as i enjoy control as much as the next guy but I'm no longer so needy in this respect. Please don't read any more into this other than a commentary about myself. I'm not passing comment on anyone else's reasons or opinions.

Cheers! Ian.

Sorry Ian, I guess it is not a suprise I misinterpeted your response. I did not think about the area you mentioned above. I agree that there are times when it would be appropriate to have a closed forum. Sorry to be so wishywashy, but hey thats my nature.

Well, there is obviously the technology to enable some of these things, maybe in the addforums next version. I would think that it would be appropriate to at least have it where there were certain read only forums.

I don't think anyone really wants to form a "Secret Society" or anything like that. I would like to know that I can post in a men's forum, or a woman can post in a woman's forum, and not have the opposite sex jumping into the discussion if we don't want that. I do disagree with David(Wheel), there are times and places where there can be private disscussion between JUST men, or JUST woman without ruining the whole place. At the moment, the only avenue for this is a PM.

I will stand up for these opinions. Men, in a respectful way, need to be able to meet together, virtually or in person, with just men. I have read in the past how there has been such controversy over groups such as Promise Keepers. Women from NOW have demonstrated against them saying that the group is promoting abuse against woman and that is absolutely wrong! I have been to 3 different Promise Keepers events and not once has there been anything derogatory said about women. The tone was always one where you need to love your wives, and maybe even get down on your knees and say sorry for not living up to being a good husband, for being selfish, etc. This is part of why I feel very passionate about this.

And men, yes we do need to love our wives, be less selfish, etc. We also should be able to discuss these and other issue as men only. And I feel that women should have the same right. I am not going to go into the woods and beat a drum with other men, but it's ok to want to have time/discussion with just men sometimes. Every year I go to a cabin with some friends and we hang out, talk about how we doing, play some softball, go out to eat, and then try to work on goals together regarding how we can be better men in all areas of life: Marriage, parenting, work, spiritually, as friends, etc. It is a very good, possitive time. And maybe, some don't get a chance to do anything like that. Maybe there is a yearning among men to connect. I know women are better at doing that and they have more opportunities to do that, or they make them more easily. To illustrate this I did a search on Google putting in both women's issues and men's issues. The results are as follows:

Women's Issues: results are 4,940,000
Men's Issues: results are 2,070,000
Less than half as many hits. Now that is a signifigant difference. I think, in a possitive way, men should be encouraged to meet together, discuss issues together. I guess, I have also seen thriving Women's groups at most of the churches I have gone to, and the men ministries are barely treading water. The woman are better at getting things going for themselves and the men so often drop the ball in one way or another. I don't know what the reason is.

Maybe this MY issue only. But maybe, just maybe there are others who feel the same need to connect with other men. I will get off my soap box now :)

As a matter of fact, James, I do feel very much the same way as you do. There is a very strong dichotomy in today's political correctness... it is entirely appropriate for a group to be exclusively female, and entirely inappropriate for a group to be exclusively male. This is wrong IMHO.

I also think that not enough men get together and discuss what it means to be a man with each other.

Whaddya say, James, wanna join me in the woods with a drum or two? :D

I can agree with the need for tolerance, i can agree with the value of single sex organizations, some places, but I think the nature of those places needs to be careful considered.

I am not yet aware of an ADHD male issue that might not gain from some possibility of interaction.

I'm one of those who crave meetings by men for men but have only one profound experience in my life to keep me hungry for it. Most others have been sad to say the least. I'm not sure we are cut out to flock up much.. hehe

When we first moved to this remote rural location I made a point to make the rounds of the locals and came bearing gifts of home baking or produce.. whatever was handy. I included the native elders in my rounds and met with a very warm welcome on the reserve down the road.

The relationship with one elder man on the reserve began to get more involved. He was old and didn't talk much but he liked to come by once in a while.

One night he stopped at the end of the driveway in an old Buick beater.. The dogs barked.. we noticed him there .... and again later.. finally I went out to see what was what and offer a hand to get his car going...

It turns out he just wanted to talk to me alone. He asked if I had ever been to a sweat lodge and I said no. He said I should come over tonight. and bring some tobacco... started his car and drove away.

The point to mentioning this is that the men there were remarkable. I was the only white guy there. I recognised no one. Repeatedly throughout the evening a man, always a different one, would come up next to me just at the right time and tell me something I needed to know in order that I be able to participate and honour the traditions. Kind of a delivery on demand..heh The men were support staff as far as I could tell and the women carried all the sacred elements and preformed all the essential rituals of the "sweat". The men acted and appeared deeply secure in their role. There were no visible schedules or itinerary but there were many many men of tremendous substance working together seamlessly to ensure all was as it should be.

I'm a white Anglo with a liberal up bringing but I was unprepared for the power of these men serving women in a such a reverend manner. It has stuck deep in my heart. I crave such company.

I'm really white.. not sure a drum is going to be productive Paul.. heheh I can hardly tap my foot properly, but I'll do my best.

Cheers! Ian.

That sounds like a remarkably rewarding experience, Ian... I am frankly jealous...

My parents were invited to a smudge ceremony, they are activists and have done a LOT for the native community here despite being painfully white. Apparently that was a very rare thing for a white person to be doing. Didn't go there myself, though.

Hmm... no drum huh... ok let's go on a virtual retreat with the other guys, and you can bring whatever e-instrument you want.

I too find that description interesting.

even though it sounded like it was going to be an "all male" event did I understand that women were involved?

And you mentioned the men serving the women... I didn't follow that leap, though i don't doubt it... can you explain that more fully?

It's a matriarch David, so the woman hold the cards of significance so to speak and the men honour the traditions in the duties that are left.
cheers! Ian.

David, David, David....There really is a place for all male/all female events/posts, etc. :) There is a place for gender specific issues. Here are some examples of books that touch on ADHD issues for one gender or another, Just women in this reference, but it illustrates the point I have been trying to make:

Women With Attention Deficit Disorder: Embracing Disorganization at Home and in the Workplace
by Sari Solden (Paperback - October 1995)

Moms with ADD: A Self-Help Manual by Christine A. Adamec, Esther, M.D. Gwinnell (Paperback)

Understanding Women With AD/HD by Kathleen G. Nadeau (Editor), Patricia O. Quinn (Editor) (Paperback)

and even our ADDFORUMS' own Tara is working on something:
Submit your Tips for an upcoming Women's ADD Survival Guide book at:
http://www.livingwithadd.com/book

There really is a general feeling against men in our society. It is sort of an undertone, and not by all women, by any means I know that women were in an underclass of citinzenship, not being able to vote until I believe 1919. This book illustrates a point in the opposite direction:

The WAR AGAINST BOYS: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men
by Christina Hoff Sommers (Author)

There is a felt need by some men here on ADDFORUMS, and men that I know, that they need to connect with one another. It can be argued against, but it is real. Take a look at how many response have come to this post. I am not trying to get in a big arguement, but I think it is clear there is a need for what this post is asking: Who should post in this men's forum? Men

An area for both genders issue could be created that both men and woman could post to if someone wanted to have input from the other gender, but then again maybe that would be just any post in general.

Look:

An "all male event" was described, that had womens' participation in it, from what i can tell.

i have no problem with men getting together when they feel they have to, but institutionalizing leads directly to abuses. Historically, IMHO.

I'm not "against men" unless some man starts a fight over it, and then i say throw the ******* out, and i'll take care of the remaining women myself, thank you very much.

< smile >

I'm sorry if you feel your manliness has been damaged by societies actions... welcome t the club. A pin for that and a pin for ADHD and how many other things...? I'm not saying it isn't real!

Let's just not make it worse. Too much secrecy spoils things. IMHO too much, not "some" or "any."

The Promise Keepers events that I went to also had women there, not particitpating but volunteering to serve.

I didn't advocate a "secret society" through institutionalizing it.

You have your strong opinions and so do I and we could keep on sending over volleys that support our points. I am not for tearing things down through "secrecy" Really, when it comes down to the women on this board can read every single word that I post in the men's forum, I would rather they not post responses in THIS particular section. Funny that there is no major debate about it on the women's side. They just state they want it JUST for women in their posts and the men here seem to respect that. But the double-standard comes on the men's forum.

I think I have made my point more than enough and I not going to debate it any more. My opinion stands as it is and it will not be swayed by your points.

Originally posted by waywardclam
with men that would be guaranteed to be 100% female free.



Dear Jimmmaaa,

You are quite right... YOU did not propose that the area be 100 % female free... but someone did...

And that promise keepers has women in service is all the "openness" i think is required...

EXCLUSION is unhealthy, i think. that doesn't eliminate "privacy" only secrecy.

WOW

I only scanned all the post and a lot has been said

We should have a
exclusive men only
a
exclusive women only

and a men and women only
where the opposite sex can post but be prepared to get yelled at if so be

grin

Heavy topic

My vote is for private mens and womens postings

I've also changed my vote to "private". I wonder if the totals would be very different if we redid the poll now that this discussion has happened...

Hey Big, or Tara, can we reset the vote?

Well...

i simply won't enter a men's only that excludes women "effectively."

For me, that is a step too far.

One more short step for a "china town" that whites and blacks can't enter, and a "whites only" cultural area.

I don't mind "China town" or "Mens' areas" but they should be maintain by courtesy, not force, or exclusion.

IMHO.

Nobody ever said they would force you into such an area.

You don't have to use the Men's Washroom if you don't want to either... :D

Lighten up Francis, I mean Wheel! :-) I think you need to watch the movie Stripes. What About Bob? might do you some good as well.

My absence wasn't the most important part of that, imho...

You'll have to draw more of the picture jimmmaaa; i've seen both those movies, and this is all the good they did me...

I think i've missed something....

Something so fragile or so vile that it can't stand the light of day?

If it's any consolation, Wheel, I have no idea what he's talking about either... :confused: :D

Missed both of those movies, unfortunately... :(

We have moved from:

A) men's issues section to
B) Men's section

And


1) should women restrain themselves from being posters in the men's issues section?
2) should women be ABLE to post in the men's issues section?
3) should women be able to OBSERVE in the men's section?

I think these are SUCH different questions.

Does no one else see unhealthy lines crossed somewhere on this progression?

What I see Wheel, is that you will hound a post with your forceful way becuase you disagree. It seems to me that you have a lot of difficulty with difference of opinion; if it is different than yours keep hitting it like a battering ram, just pounding and pounding and pounding from all different direction.

I have an idea:

Let the owner of the board and the moderators decide. Either way, I will still come to this board with close or open or semi open men's section. I like the community here and it is a great place to hang out and discuss issues.

On the Stripes reference,

The arrmy guys are introducing themselves and it comes to a guy named "Francis" He says that is name is Francis but no calls him that and says every one should call him some other name(can't remember it but a tough sounding name) and then he says, "If anyone calls me Francis, I'll kill him!!" Then Sgt Hulka goes on to say, "Lighten up Francis!" My friends and I would say that all the time in high school and early college to one anther when someone was getting to intense :) I was saying it to you, David, to lighten things up. It doesn't seem like you can let go of an issue, or relax on it.

What do you want every one to say, "OK, David you are right! I guess my opinion was totally wrong. What was I thinking." Your opinion is your sand there can be different opinions that is how our country works.

"Does no one else see unhealthy lines crossed somewhere on this progression?" No one is talking is talking negatively about women. They just have said that they would like a space on the board for men's issues with possibly just men talking about them. Well if that were to happen, do you think that the moderators and owner of the board would just forget about that part of this Great site they have developed? "It's the men's section, they can do whatever they want, we don't need to be moderated at all? I don't think that would happen. I went through the women's thread on this and Tara said that they are thinking about things and said the following:

."In the next few weeks will be implementing password protected forums which people must subscribe too. I don't know if we will password protect the current men's and women's sections or add addtional ones"

The moderators on this board seem to me like very intelligent people and if something ended up being "Unhealthy" they would stop it. If they did implement some version of what has been discussed on this thread I am sure it would be closely watched after this debate that has gone on

Well done you guys.. this is good to see happening. I'm encouraged by this frank discussion and wish I had more time just now to write.

I am looking for a policy statement from the mods and some action one way or the other.

David, James and Paul.. I'm grateful for your company and your willingness to lean into "it" a bit.
Cheers! Ian.

Originally posted by itschaotic
I am looking for a policy statement from the mods and some action one way or the other.

You'll get one soon.

I too am grateful for the discussion here.

Sorry Wheel, but I don't see these unhealthy lines you are describing. I understand what you are saying but I disagree with you.

But the Admins will act on this matter. Soon, I hope. :D

Jimmmaaa, the original post was:

what do you think? (men only)

What do the male members think about the men's section of ADD Forums? Should it be for men only?

Should only men be able to post in the men's forum?

Tara's question has been rewritten by various posters to become something different: modified in the extreme to complete exclusion of access of groups.

Jimmmaaa, I asked a question in my last post, I illustrated the drift of the question. I doubt anyone thinks those statements are the same, even if they like them all. I object to your characterization of that post of review and inquiry as shoving anything anywhere, or forcing anyone to agree with me.

You too are free to hold your own opinion; I would appreciate your civility and accuracy when characterizing my posts.

Originally posted by jimmmaaa


I have an idea:

Let the owner of the board and the moderators decide.

Who died and made you king?

Did I presume to make the choice for anyone else? No. Did I presume to make the policy choice? No. Why would you intimate that I did?

I simply stated that I would not participate in a completely closed "men's only" forum, defined in the extreme with real barriers. And i won't. And that is my individual right, thank you very much.

I didn't realize that exploring the issue from more than one angle was unwelcomed behavior. Hence forth shant I explore anything you say from any angle, lest I might go over your autocratically set unilaterally set limit? I sincerely and profusely regret my transgression against your delicate sensibilities.

I think it the height of irony that you go off on me under the intimations of things I didn't even do, and tell me "lighten up." Geeze Jimmmaaa, really? Take a page from your own book why don't you?

< smile >

Take care!

Originally posted by waywardclam


You'll get one soon.

I too am grateful for the discussion here.

Sorry Wheel, but I don't see these unhealthy lines you are describing. I understand what you are saying but I disagree with you.

But the Admins will act on this matter. Soon, I hope. :D

Paul, you don't need to be sorry for holding a different opinion, on my behalf, though you are free to feel anyway you wish, IMHO.

Of course, I'm in no hurry here either, I'd just as soon see the MAJORITY opinion prevail... < smile > or a CONSENSUS develop....

Originally posted by jimmmaaa

"Does no one else see unhealthy lines crossed somewhere on this progression?"

No one is talking is talking negatively about women.

I don't think those two sentences are at all equal... not even the slightest bit. In fact, i can see talking about women negatively and NOT crossing that line. Hmmm.... No wonder you "don't agree" you aren't even close to understanding what I was communicating... you have no CHANCE of agreeing with it!

I somehow doubt you'd agree even if you did understand. Paul understands and he doesn't agree... ( Hi Paul!) See. We can disagree and be civil.

< smile >

Originally posted by Wheel1975
Jimmmaaa, You too are free to hold your own opinion; I would appreciate your civility and accuracy when characterizing my posts.

If it is not too much to ask, I would appreciate this extension of courtesy to PMs too.

Thank you.

Originally posted by jimmmaaa
What I see Wheel, is that you will hound a post with your forceful way becuase you disagree. It seems to me that you have a lot of difficulty with difference of opinion; if it is different than yours keep hitting it like a battering ram, just pounding and pounding and pounding from all different direction.



Wheel

I am going to say this a delicatly as I can.

Not being blessed with either social grace or the ability to put words together in a form a elegant as you I have shyed away from making this post for some time.

But jimmmaaaa said my thoughts , with his words quoted above so plainly and simply.

After reading last nights post about "The Thread Killer" and going back to a post I made to you some time in history about ""How I quite often loose the context of what you are saying becuase your posts are so long and worded with words that are quite often beyond my knowlage.

I have seen "in you", what Jimmmaaa is saying and I can speak openly on it as I have seen and still do see the very same thing in myself.

A good example is this post here
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=29988#post29988

At the beggining of the post That was the feeling that I was getting from it that you and I would get into a battle of words regarding this and it didnt feel good.

Why I bring this up is that becuase even though I agreed with you in principal that "over time the symptoms seem to go away,"

Your post was implying to me that they magicly go away and I was trying to say that they seem to go away, after the ADDer recognises the fault and takes many hard hard steps to correct it or at least minimise it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I post this message to you not to start an argument, not to belittle you, not to hurt you an any other negative thing or emotion that could possible come of it
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But I post this to you in what I hope is a positive tone

I really enjoy reading a lot of your stuff ( and your use of the English language has really cooled out from a few months ago, to the point of I am finding your post easier to read, but for my limmited mentality they could get even better if your words wernt so consise and perfect.

I think you must have failed Basic Slang 101 in High school (Joke)
(Humor) ( No HURT INTENDED)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And the point I bring to this is that you were asked a while back by me to not speak so perfectly in ayour post and you obviously took it to task and your posts have become so much easier to read than a while ago
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This goes back to the symptoms "Magicly disapering"
Nope they Didnt
You worked at it maybee subconciously
Bingo Your post became easier to read
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So now to the jist of the matter and that is the QUOTE from JIMMMAAAA and my referal to the fact that I have seen this also

We are pointing out to you what we see
Now if you are so inclined its up to you to make the magic happen and make it better

If you are not so inclined then that is your choice
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have always lived by a personal saying and (this is my saying as I am not calling you any name at all)

If you are going to call me an ******* (Or ANY OTHER NAME)

Then Call me an ******* to my FACE

But Be Prepared to TELL me WHY you think Im an *******

Because if I don't know WHY You think that I'm an *******

Then I cant fix it

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Once again I state that I am not calling you a name of any sort and I mean no disrespect or intend no hurt from this post and if I have caused any "Then I am truley sorry" and I apploigise publicly now.

I have grown to love you as a fellow brother ADDer and I enjoy your paticiapation in the forums here and it would be everybodys loss if you didnt participate.

))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Now I am going to state what Jimmmaaa said in my own words

Jimmmaaa said,"Lighten up Francis!"

Garry says "hey Man, mellow out man, take a pill, smoke a joint, smell the flowers,relax and enjoy the day.

+++
This is my oppinion

Let's try the short version:

#1

I support a Men's Issues area, the subject of which is issues specific to men. The participants might be anyone with something relevant to say about the "Men's Issue" in question.


#2

I may even support a "Men's Area" the purpose of which is to allow men practice exploring any issue from a "men's' perspective. Women would be encouraged to self regulate restraint of their contributions to such an area.

That's all.

Now, that is not asking any questions, not forcing anything on any one, not implying anything. I'm not seeking to "have my way" with the board owners or their volunteer or other representatives. i have no other ulterior motives. I am not specifically or generally accusing anyone of anything, directly or indirectly. I am not intending, nor do i believe i have inadvertently within this post, given cause for anyone to take offense. I am not asking for advice, or help. i do not wish to have my opinion misinterpreted as cloaked advice. These two statements represent my opinion, for what it's worth, which i would like to say, from my point of view is worth exactly "one persons" worth... no more, and certainly no more than anyone else here. i am not seeking to tighten up or loosen up anyone else, or trying to convince them to tighten up or loosen up themselves.

If anyone wants to respond to this post, or ignore it, that is their recognized right and privilege.

Originally posted by Garry Lawton


Why I bring this up is that becuase even though I agreed with you in principal that "over time the symptoms seem to go away,"

Your post was implying to me that they magicly go away and I was trying to say that they seem to go away, after the ADDer recognises the fault and takes many hard hard steps to correct it or at least minimise it.

As a child in school, and later as an adult i have obseved in myself and in others wit this condition, that "effort" has nothing what so ever to do an increase in reliability.

In fact, the tune played by those who are most difficult to deal with who are not ADHD runs like "If you'd just try (implication: as hard as a normal person) you could do this too."

I completely disagree with that statement by them and your related statement, that "effort" you have expended and therefore that others with ADHD "could" expend would solve all the ADHD problems, or even impact them.

Barkley, Goldstein, Lavoie, Ratey, Hallowell, Weiss, etc., etc., etc., are on record as saying that this is not a "moral" condition or one open to the power of change through "will power."

I think they are correct.

They then proceed to make suggestions on how one CAN improve one's lot, some more inspired, in my opinion, than others.

I am surprised to see your ACTUAL position in such perfect alignment with the people (those linear thinkers!) with whom you so vocally disagree.

If you want to stick to the content of the thread post here.

If you want to improve my social skills, how about you start a new thread...?

Originally posted by Garry Lawton


If you are going to call me an ******* (Or ANY OTHER NAME)

Then Call me an ******* to my FACE

But Be Prepared to TELL me WHY you think Im an *******

Because if I don't know WHY You think that I'm an *******

Then I cant fix it

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++
This is my oppinion

Call me ADHD though, and tell me why, and I am still ADHD, and no, I don't believe I can fix it, nor do I believe that anyone else has or can "fix it."

Originally posted by Garry Lawton

Originally posted by jimmmaaa
What I see Wheel, is that you will hound a post with your forceful way because you disagree. It seems to me that you have a lot of difficulty with difference of opinion; if it is different than yours keep hitting it like a battering ram, just pounding and pounding and pounding from all different direction.

Wheel


But jimmmaaaa said my thoughts , with his words quoted above so plainly and simply.

I have seen "in you", what Jimmmaaa is saying and I can speak openly on it as I have seen and still do see the very same thing in myself.

A good example is this post here
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=29988#post29988

At the beggining of the post That was the feeling that I was getting from it that you and I would get into a battle of words regarding this and it didnt feel good.

Why I bring this up is that because even though I agreed with you in principal that "over time the symptoms seem to go away,"

But I post this to you in what I hope is a positive tone

I think you must have failed Basic Slang 101 in High school (Joke)
(Humor) ( No HURT INTENDED)

And the point I bring to this is that you were asked a while back by me to not speak so perfectly in ayour post and you obviously took it to task and your posts have become so much easier to read than a while ago
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This goes back to the symptoms "Magicly disappearing"
Nope they Didn't
You worked at it maybee subconsciously
Bingo Your post became easier to read
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So now to the jist of the matter and that is the QUOTE from JIMMMAAAA and my referal to the fact that I have seen this also

We are pointing out to you what we see
Now if you are so inclined its up to you to make the magic happen and make it better

Once again I state that I am not calling you a name of any sort and I mean no disrespect or intend no hurt from this post and if I have caused any "Then I am truly sorry" and I apploigise publicly now.

I have grown to love you as a fellow brother ADDer and I enjoy your participation in the forums here and it would be everybodys loss if you didn't participate.

This is my opinion

By implication, there is a limit on the number of contributions, the number of angles from which a single person should look at or should look at and share observations.

Someone who is aware of this limit will have to be explicit in announcing it to me... I don't see it in the forum rules or guidelines, and I am not inherently aware of such a thing.

I don't ever see your point in the above. I was entirely ready to hear it, There's lots of lead up, but I don't see the "this is my point: X." Sorry... I missed it.

I thought a "battle of words" was the whole point of not deciding issues by "might"... sword fight, duels, burnings at the stake.

I thought dealing with the issues, rather than focusing on characteristics of the other people in the conversation was the point, purpose and method for considering and synthesizing improved understanding by interaction with others.

Why do you assume, especially when i have not said so, that I have trouble accepting other people's opinions rather than accepting yourself that i have substantial considered support for one or another position I may express?


I'm generally pretty forward about what I have trouble with. Why make that (incorrect) guess when so many other possible explanations also exist?

Why make personal character flaw attacks when other more likely possibilities exist? Why make assumptions about character flaws and attack them at all?

Do you want to post your opinions free from feedback or scrutiny? I don't want to post my considerations free from feedback or scrutiny! But fine. Then say "I'm not really looking for feedback or criticism on this, i just wanted to say it."

You seem to be drawing some sort of line in the sand that I have no understanding of, nor any understanding of its valid purpose. I have trouble dealing with things that I cannot make any sense of for myself.


What is the gist? What are you pointing out?

Originally posted by pembroke
I have a question (I was considering starting a seperate post, but I don't think my question merits that):

Has anyone else found that, as they get older, they seem to "outgrowing" their ADD?

It seems to me that all the things that classifed me as ADD when I was younger (impulsivity, rage, disorganization, forgetfulness) seem to be occuring less and less. I still have moments, but not as many, as long, as frequent.

And my daughter has long ago stopped taking her Metadate, yet her grades remain consistent (honors) - she's even overcome her chronic shyness enough to want to try out for plays!

Anyone?

Thank you much,

Judit:cool:

Not magic, Garry, "outgrowing", becoming developmentally ready.

Not "forcing ones' self through effort to be at a developmental stage not yet attained."

Garry... you've lost me. i've been back to the thread, i've gone to the initiating post... i see some normal amounts of focus drift... i don't know what point you are making to me.

Are you willing to try again?

Grin

Im not sure

I think I got lost in all of that

Originally posted by jimmmaaa
What I see Wheel, is that you will hound a post with your forceful way because you disagree. It seems to me that you have a lot of difficulty with difference of opinion; if it is different than yours keep hitting it like a battering ram, just pounding and pounding and pounding from all different direction.

Wheel


But jimmmaaaa said my thoughts , with his words quoted above so plainly and simply.

I have seen "in you", what Jimmmaaa is saying and I can speak openly on it as I have seen and still do see the very same thing in myself.

I guess this is the originaal point

.I completely disagree with that statement by them and your related statement, that "effort" you have expended and therefore that others with ADHD "could" expend would solve all the ADHD problems, or even impact them.

This is where our difference in abillity with words will get the better of me my friend.

All I am saying that once I BECAME AWARE THAT I HAD CHARACTERISTICS THAT WERE A RESULT OF ADD with the help of my family I have been able to change the way I react to various situations and chasnge various thing about me and my ADD.

I at no point said , "therefore that others with ADHD "could" expend would solve all the ADHD problems, or even impact them"







Im sorry I have no idea what is meant by

"Barkley, Goldstein, Lavoie, Ratey, Hallowell, Weiss, etc., etc., etc., are on record as saying that this is not a "moral" condition or one open to the power of change through "will power."

I think they are correct.



They then proceed to make suggestions on how one CAN improve one's lot, some more inspired, in my opinion, than others.

I am surprised to see your ACTUAL position in such perfect alignment with the people (those linear thinkers!) with whom you so vocally disagree

If you feel im in line with these guys then so be it

It is not by intention , just by a accident I guess

If you want to improve my social skills, how about you start a new thread...?


i have no desire to improve your social skills

I only wish to point out that due to your supurb abillity with words
its like you are speaking a different language when I read your post.

That is by no means a fault of yours but of mine in that I dont have the vocabulary that you have

But " I could Have If Id only Try harder", couldnt I or so it has been said

That is that is an ability that I really have no desire to work on as I find I am not interested in being able to use words as well as you do

Originally posted by Garry Lawton
.

This is where our difference in abillity with words will get the better of me my friend.

All I am saying that once I BECAME AWARE THAT I HAD CHARACTERISTICS THAT WERE A RESULT OF ADD with the help of my family I have been able to change the way I react to various situations and chasnge various thing about me and my ADD.

I at no point said , "therefore that others with ADHD "could" expend would solve all the ADHD problems, or even impact them"

Points taken and conceeded. You are correct. Mine were overstatements.


Im sorry I have no idea what is meant by

"Barkley, Goldstein, Lavoie, Ratey, Hallowell, Weiss, etc., etc., etc., are on record as saying that this is not a "moral" condition or one open to the power of change through "will power."

I think they are correct.

They then proceed to make suggestions on how one CAN improve one's lot, some more inspired, in my opinion, than others.

I am surprised to see your ACTUAL position in such perfect alignment with the people (those linear thinkers!) with whom you so vocally disagree

If you feel im in line with these guys then so be it

With the ADHD I'm never sure what to do... you didn't ask a question, so i guess I don't have to answer one... but the ADHD so often fail to form a question when they want a response... so, do you want me to try to give you an idea of what I meant, or are you quite fine with it as it stands?

It is not by intention , just by a accident I guess

< grin >

Originally posted by Garry Lawton



i have no desire to improve your social skills

I only wish to point out that due to your supurb abillity with words
its like you are speaking a different language when I read your post.

That is by no means a fault of yours but of mine in that I dont have the vocabulary that you have

But " I could Have If Id only Try harder", couldnt I or so it has been said

That is that is an ability that I really have no desire to work on as I find I am not interested in being able to use words as well as you do

yep... Well thanks for the complement, but i think it may over estimate my "superbness"... My English teachers all thought i was unclear, and i must agree with them and you. Only one said once "people don't try to say that" about something I wrote... once... I hold on to it, but it was only said once... < smile >

I must confess, I'm lost... I can't tell what your point was here, but i feel so close!

Will you take another swing at it for me?

Originally posted by Garry Lawton
Originally posted by jimmmaaa
What I see Wheel, is that you will hound a post with your forceful way because you disagree. It seems to me that you have a lot of difficulty with difference of opinion; if it is different than yours keep hitting it like a battering ram, just pounding and pounding and pounding from all different direction.

Wheel


But jimmmaaaa said my thoughts , with his words quoted above so plainly and simply.

I have seen "in you", what Jimmmaaa is saying and I can speak openly on it as I have seen and still do see the very same thing in myself.

I guess this is the originaal point

Thanks for the reflection:

1) ... forceful ...
2) ... keep hitting it like a battering ram...
3) ... seems to me that you have a lot of difficulty with difference of opinion ...

I will grant without seeing it (because of my own perceptual distortion?) that this is how it appears...

between really engaging an idea and disregarding and discarding it seems not much space to me.

If it is a bad thing, then i am a bad thing, because I do not have this or choose this, i am this.

And still, i can be sorry if (when) I offend.

Originally posted by Garry Lawton
Grin

Im not sure

I think I got lost in all of that

That makes two of us. :)

quote:
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If you want to improve my social skills, how about you start a new thread...?
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Back a few posts you said this
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I replied with this



i have no desire to improve your social skills

I only wish to point out that due to your supurb abillity with words
its like you are speaking a different language when I read your post.

That is by no means a fault of yours but of mine in that I dont have the vocabulary that you have

But " I could Have If Id only Try harder", couldnt I or so it has been said

That is that is an ability that I really have no desire to work on as I find I am not interested in being able to use words as well as you do
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I am pointing out several things here

1. Pointing out that "I have No desire to improve your social skills" , But that I did have a desire to show to you how I percieve you and how aggresive you can be with some of your postings.

--- ---- ----- ---- ---- ---- -----
If nobody ever tells you how they percieve you to be, then you will never know, and you will never have the chance to change that part of your behaviour (((( BUT ONLY IF YOU DESIRE TO CHANGE THAT PART OF YOUR BEHAVIOR)

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2. Pointing out " That so many people in my life also have said"
"If you would ONLY TRY HARDER then you could do it.(work better with words}
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3. Pointing out " That I have no desire to work better with words so there fore no amount of effort would ever make me better with words as I am not interested !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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4. Pointing out "that things I am interested in" (not coming across as being so aggressive) - This I am interested in so therefore it is an ADD Trait that can be changed ,with hard work, BUT ONLY BECAUSE I WANT TO.
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5. IT WILL NOT BE CHANGED MAGICLY but only through perseverence and hard work
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Hope this clarifys my post

Im sorry I have no idea what is meant by

"Barkley, Goldstein, Lavoie, Ratey, Hallowell, Weiss, etc., etc., etc., are on record as saying that this is not a "moral" condition or one open to the power of change through "will power."




as for me being online with these linear thinkers Im not sure what you meant as I was origanally repling to the statement you made saying( as I percieved what you were saying) that over time some symptoms of ADD will disapate or go away )

and I replied "HORSE COOKIES" and now revert to my last post about how things will change only through hard work and only if you want to change something

I hope this clarifys things

if not then lets try again

If so

then we move on to another " WARM" discussion

They assert that ADHD is not properly characterized as a moral failure, or a character problem.

Thye also assert that ADHD does not represent a failure or insufficency of "will power."

They further assert that More Will Power is not a solution to ADHD.

I think your proposal that "hard work" is a solution to the problems of ADHD is incorrect, and unsupported by the evidence.

"Hard work" to me sounds exactly like "more will power" and i simply don't find support for that in my experience.

Name things, for instance, that respond to "hard work" and name things related that do not. I think the list you generate under your own understanding will create two groups of activities and tasks that have some pretty clear distiguishing characteristics.

I believe you will see a difference between aptitude and performance, between ability and functionality.

Garry, this feels like it should be in an entirely different thread...

This thread might be redirected to discussing if there is a difference between:

a) Men's issues and
b) a Men's Area

and what role the difference between:

1) voluntatry self restraint
2) exlcusion

might play, along with consideration of the need for :

alpha) tolerance
beta) privacy
gamma) secrecy

The entire original debate has been academic for a long time at this point.

What do you mean Paul?

Jimmmaaa, He might mean "bye Dave." See ya.

At the end of the day, there are going to be people with issues that they will find are borderline ADD/Male only or ADD/female only type problems, as well as people ADD experiencing some king of bad day/problem/trauma.

Some of these people are looking simply for a virtual shoulder to lean on, and in that moment of need, seek friendship from someone from the same sex. This isn't to say, someone from the opposite sex coudn't be helpful, or is unable to be helpful, it's just to say there are sometimes that you just want the space to know that extra opinion isn't going to come.

For me, I remember that this forum is a place to help people, and by providing an area where a threatened person feels safe is an act of help. In the already difficult world of ADD, lets not make it too difficult for someone to find a safe pleace to get some help.

On the other hand, there might be issues that men want to talk about where getting a female opinion has plenty of Value. Remember that the topic are is mens issues, so the focus is still on men.

Just sometimes it helps to understand the female perspective as it can be known to speed up finding a solution to a problem(sometimes not though..lol).

A simple way try something like this to have in the topic "Male replies only:....How often do you wax???" or something like that.

I can't say that I have ever felt it was right posting in the womens issues area, but I can say that I have gained a better understanding of women by reading some of the posts which has helped make me a better person.

I can see this is an emotive topic, but I think that having areas that allow for both will allow people to gravitate to where each person feels there particular needs on the day can be satisfied.

Sleepz.

This seems a very simple issue to me, and it's tiring to see the same tired arguments against "excluding" one sex or the other.

It's not about "excluding" anyone, it's about making the person who needs help with what may be an embarassing or deeply private issue feel safe and secure in discussing it here.

If you feel that someone saying that women are intrinsically different from men is demeaning in some way despite all the scientific and for that matter, experiential evidence there is, (what guy hasn't wished he could just solve a problem involving a woman without having to discuss ad infinitum the feelings involved...) that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, science has been wrong before, and I've been wrong before, and it's unlikely we'll definitively settle who is right in this forum.

But take your battle elsewhere, and let those who wish to speak privately have their privacy. When someone wants privacy, their reasons for it may be valid only to themselves. And that's fine. If privacy is what they need to talk about something and get help, then that's what we should give them, whether it offends your sense of fair play or not.

aforceforgood.
Thanks for that.. I agree.

Women should be able to view & post !
Just: DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL!

I like your humour runner... heh

So what was the consensus? Men only or men and women?

I personally think it should be that, while women are welcome to enter and post, this group should be for men. As such, male oriented issues can be discussed. Barring slang terms for genitalia, bodily functions, and intimate interactions between consenting adults, language could get more graphic that a woman finds easy to accept. The only reason I even brought that up is that I am dealing with an issue that envolves a male problem and whether it relates to ADD. Until I know that such a discussion will not get me banned in these oh-so-important forums, I am not willing to post my problem. My physician blew off my questions.

Anyway, as there is no forum directly relating to this kind of problem, I thought I would add to this post and test the water...

Arbuck you could always PM Big the male addministartor with what you would like to post and make sure he thinks it is appropriate. Then if its ok just do a copy and paste to the appropriate forum

I had a joke that I sent to him and in his oppinion it wasn't appropriate, and I accepted his oppion on the matter

Men can talk about things with other men that they can't in front of women. A man can con a woman, but can't con another man. The same is true for women.

There seems to be more than enough forums that deal with every ADD related issue and group that a little "seperation" doesn't seem to be earth shattering.

Then again, I could be full of crap... It wouldn't be the 1st time ;)!

Keep in mind, the female administrators would be able to peek in. They probably wouldn't say anything though.

I think a voice from a women would be great

its not like you can keep women from talking so why try??

and arbuck i have worked with and for women for years
there is no language that they can not accept
they just want you to think they cann't
when they are together they are worse than any men i have ever known.

i have had to pull out kidneystone removeal storeys just to compete!!!

I think the simplest solution is that, in situations in which the poster doesn't feel female input is appropriate (although I can't imagine a single such situation), they can simply put, "men only respond please" in the title.

Personally I value the female input greatly, for the simple reason that women in general, are very good with support networks and communicating about problems. Something men in western cultures TEND (No hackles raising please, I am speaking about trends here not every individual and I can back it up with studies so it's not opinion. More like educated opinion. :D ) not to be as good at. In short, they often have very good common sense input on things, even things they can't directly experience. Just my take.

I think it would be neat if this post were primarily men discussion obviously but I think the women who post here should be able to ask men questions. Not obnoxiously of course.

Sorry guys I had to give my input

Both should. :)
Maybe if I am going to post, I will interpret "men forum" as mainly about issues men have and not a forum for males to post only..

Nice to hear from the ladies on this one. Frankly, I seem to remember posting in the women's forum and I see no reason why they shouldn't post here.

Most of us want to be understood in the context of having ADHD, but there are gender understanding issues at stake too. What better way to inform both questions of understanding?

Why can't there be a section for just men? Why does it always have to include EVERYONE?? I mean come on, it seems to be ok for women to have their own little clique's or 'for women only' but men cannot. I just think there's a real double standard when it comes to things like this. We're not being sexist, we just want a place we can have as our own. There's no constitutional right that says we always have to accept everyone all the time. And yes it's completely fair to have a 'men only' section.

But again, it's all just my opinion so please don't get all crazy on me here. I do have the freedom to my OWN opinion - no?

Scott

Illini,

Men do post in the women's forums. It is only particular threads marked Women only, and you will find a few of those in this forum too.

The fact we have one for each is a recognition of the fact that there will be differences in an ADDers issues based on gender and sometimes it is more comfortable to discuss those specific items in an environment of peers. It is not about women's lib, or male chauvenism. However, it is also important for those who suffer ADHD, and for those seeking information about it to be able to see that there are differences in the way different genders who have this disorder deal with it. So, it behooves us to try to toe the line between a place just for men/women, and a place where to two can see eye to eye. The way we presently run it is a means to that end, and this survey a means to find out how well it is working.

You are quite welcome to express your opinion here, of course and the administrators are going to take your view into account. I do not post this to argue with you, only to point out that the "women's forum" isn't any more exclusive than this one, and to show that we are not trying to be unfair, just trying to go with what seems to work for the most folks.

I think having a men's or women's only forum is a good idea. Relationship issues with the opposite sex are basic to life and are affected by add/adhd. Talking about them in the sanctity of one group or the other is thereapeutic. IMO.
I don't see anything wrong with it. Men have issues with women, and vice versa. The single gender meeting is for support without the input/exposure of the other gender. I've been to men's group meetings in A.A. and treatment. It should be left to the discussion of the other men, to help the individual see more clearly where his views are coming from. I have the same opinion for women's groups, but never been to one :).
My observations pertaining to mixed groups when the issue is the other gender:

Peoples feelings get hurt.

People do not say what they are really thinking about the other gender. Either to avoid hurt feelings, being judged by the opposite sex, or outright rejection by the opposite sex.

Rumors spread a lot quicker when both genders are there.
Gender competition develops.
Resentments develop.
Repression occurs.
The above applies when the topic is the other gender. I think there should be a forum for each gender, where the only topic is the other gender.
As far as a general topic, I think it should be private too. What if someone want's to talk about sexual topics? Personal medical problems? If women want a private forum, I don't feel left out or discriminated against at all.

Just my observations and opinions. I personally think single gender groups are very beneficial. What is the harm? Why does one gender have to know what the other is saying? I don't think over intellectualizing the issue helps.
I can't decipher the above discussion of the sameness or differences in men and women. I just think, in general, men would tend to want their own forum, where women tend to want it all together. And I think it's because men are men and women are women. Men are affected by a woman's presence and may even tell them they agree to mixed gender forums, just so women will like him. hehe.

It might be helpful. Isn't that what we are here for?

I believe that women should have a perspective on the men's issues with ADD. I feel that if it is a woman who does not have ADD and is trying to cope with a husband or loved one, then she might get some valuable information. Or if she has ADD and wants to know how not to strangle her husband when their ADD conflicts.:p

But that's just my two cents.;)

Two species. Shared brain. Can't have balance without both.
Post up if you have something to ADD. :)

i think its fair for both male and female to post. I mean most of whats here is gender-related or gender-specific topich which women can offer a sound and grounded view on as well. Sometimes it may be a view that the majority of males missed. Mixed contribution i dont think is an issue myself.

I have no problem with ladies posting in the men's forum.

Many times the ladies will have some very good insights into things that us males tend to overlook, and I appreciate it.

Me


What do the male members think about the men's section of ADD Forums? Should it be for men only?

Should only men be able to post in the men's forum?

I don't care if women are in the forum. Maybe reading men's issues posted by men could somehow benefit a certain female person's situation, help show some light or understanding in the way men think. I know hearing what women have to say about women's issues is often good for me. What I value is having a men's place to talk about men's issues openly and freely. I do not inhibit or contribute adverse posts to women's rooms that would take away their freedom or ability to speak freely to other women, and hope for the same respect in turn. Why not allow women to benefit if their is any benefit to be had? Especially for people like us? I just hope the women will, again, not try to dominate the room or create an environment where men cannot come out, be open and be vulnerable men. I hope that made sense.

I certainly enjoy the insight that women often have into men's issues. I've seen specific instances of women having input on issues in this forum based on the experiences of the men in their own lives.

I suppose the only potential issue or concern would be that a guy might not be comfortable posting something super-sensitive if women would also be reading? Then again, having seen all the posts recently regarding masturbation, sexual dysfunction, etc. it appears none of us are letting that bother us.

No one likes a sausagefest.