Well, I’ve had quite a week. I’m taking an online history class that requires I submit four short essays every other Friday by midnight. Even though I have two weeks to prepare, read, research, and write, I invariably wait until the last minute and submit the essays just before the witching hour. In fact, part the assignment due two weeks ago was late by over an hour – the prof. gave me full credit at least.

Due along with the last routine assignment was the midterm. The midterm required me to write four one page essays (I thought I read ONLY one) and ten half page descriptions of key historical events or people. I discovered this confluence about two weeks ago and did what I always do: procrastinated. Last weekend I started to work on it, but felt no urgency. I finished the rough draft for three of the routine essays, but hadn’t broached the midterm at all. I had already written on some of the required topics so felt confident I would have to put much work in. So Thursday (10/27) night rolls around and I recheck what’s required for the midterm and realized I had a lot to do in a short time. About 8 pm Thursday night I sit at the computer and began to write. And I wrote all night and stopped at 9 am so I could take a shower and go to work (for 8 hours). Now I said, “…stopped…” not finished. (At least I submitted the routine assignment Thursday night for full credit.) In over twelve hours I had written about four pages (!), but still had the ten half page descriptions to finish which I didn’t start until 7:30 Friday night, and with an 11:30 pm deadline. Well, I write and write, with no sleep since Wednesday night. I submitted the all but two half page descriptions by the deadline (the prof. was emphatic about NOT missing this deadline).

This has been the story of my life since high school. I been going to college on and (mostly) off since 1983 and every class that requires writing essays and papers has given me the most grief. I NEVER finished a paper early; almost always the night before, usually an all-nighter, and usually an A.

So Saturday I was pretty down about the whole thing. I was tired. I was mad at myself. I thought, here I am being treated for ADHD and doing no better that when I didn’t take meds. (I know meds are only part of treatment.) The only positive my meds gave me was that I was very anxious about the deadline despite the work I had to do!

Saturday, I did a lot of web hopping, looking for more info on why I don’t plan better. I came across an ebook (2002) by Martin L. Kutscher, M.D., about ADHD and how the current DSM-IV description does not adequately diagnose ADHD. He draws heavily on Dr. Russell Barkley’s research and says the “executive dysfunction” must be seen as a key part of diagnosis and treatment of ADHD. I know there has been quite a bit terminological debate on the forum about “executive function,” but when I read Dr. Kutscher’s book I couldn’t help but see me being described to a “T.”

On several occasions I’ve mentioned to some close to me that I seem to live in a constant present. I have poor past memories (very impressionistic) and, conceptually, I understand the concept of the future, but it has no real emotional or tangible cache for me. So when I read Dr. Kutscher describe “executive dysfunction” I was blown away, especially about the problem of time.

Foresight (predicting and planning for the future) will be deficient when inadequate working memory teams up with a poor ability to inhibit the present distractions. People with ADHD cannot keep the future in mind. They are prisoners of the present; the future catches them off guard. In fact, surprisingly poor foresight is perhaps the greatest difficulty in their lives.(page 9)

Shifting from Agenda A to Agenda B is a difficult task requiring good executive function. Pulling yourself out of one activity and switching to another--transitioning--is innately difficult, and requires effort and control.

Separating emotion from fact requires time to reflect. Each event has an objective reality, and an additional “emotional tag” which we attach to it. For example, a traffic jam may occur, causing us to be late for work. That is the objective fact. How we react, though, is up to the emotional tag of significance that we place on it. Do we stay calm, and make plans to finish up a little later? Or, do our emotions cause us to see the traffic as a personal, unfair attack--causing us to seethe and curse? Without the gift of time, we never get to separate emotion from fact. This leads to poor ability to judge the significance of what is happening to us.

Live at the “mercy of the moment.” (“Johnny is always swept away by whatever is happening to him right then and there.”) ADHD behaviors make sense once we realize that they are based on reactions taking only the present moment into account. It is not that Johnny doesn’t care about the future; it is that the future and the past don’t even exist. Such is the nature of the disability. By way of analogy, imagine riding down a river with a leaking canoe. You would be so overwhelmed by the need to bail out water that you would not see the upcoming cliff. It's not that you don't "care" about falling over a cliff--it's that you don't even get to consider it. If you want to understand the ADHDer's actions, simply ask yourself: "What behavior makes sense if you feel like you only have 4 seconds left to live? Probably to most of you involved with ADHD, these are not revelations, but it made me realize how impaired I really am; how the part of my brain writing this is very different from the part of my brain that executes or acts.

Am I seeing all this right or I am I missing something? I know meds are only part of treatment and about 20% don’t respond to meds anyway. So do I need more structure, more cues, more…? Should I get a neurological work up and see if there’s impairment or is this just a waste of money and won’t change my treatment?

Depression occurs in 10-30% of ADHD children and in 47% of ADHD adults. Although pure ADHD patients get depressed briefly, they flow with the environment (changing within minutes). In contrast, depressed children stay depressed for long periods. The symptoms include loss of joy, sadness, pervasive irritability (not just response to specific frustrations), withdrawal, self-critical outlook, and vegetative symptoms (abnormal sleep or appetite).I am that “pure” ADHD person! I read that to my sister who does suffer from depression, and she agreed I fit the “pure” description.


Again, I am reading all this right, or am I missing something. I know my history, and this past all-nighter was too typical.


I know what I have and I want to accept it, use it to my advantage, but I also don't want to ignore what it fully entails either.


Thanks for hearing my out and setting me straight.

SL

On several occasions I’ve mentioned to some close to me that I seem to live in a constant present. I have poor past memories (very impressionistic) and, conceptually, I understand the concept of the future, but it has no real emotional or tangible cache for me. So when I read Dr. Kutscher describe “executive dysfunction” I was blown away, especially about the problem of time.
SLHey, Solar, thanks for the excerpts. It hit right on of the IMO crucial challenges of coping with ADD. I only recently learned about ADD and learning about the time-warping effect was half relief (finally, explanation!) and half body blow to the psyche, recognizing how much of an impairment I've been living with and will have to continue to cope with.

To me one of the huge ironies of living always in the present is that while it always seems like I have plenty of time and leave things til the last minute, I also live with constant overwhelm because everything without a deadline feels like it's due "NOW".

And yeah, I had the same story on the night-before frantic term papers and projects. Using a scheduling program that blocks out time visually helps a lot, but it still happens if I let my guard down. So frustrating!

This is another description of time and ADD:
"Several ADD tendencies complicate the time management picture so profoundly that most conventional time management advice simply does not apply to adults with ADD. Take Phyllis, for example.... [her] poor sense of time is also affected by poor awareness of time itself--a trait very common to those with ADD. To Phyllis, time does not occur in neat little experiential bundles of minutes and hours. Drs. John Ratey and Ned hallowell note that instead of being able to carve out discrete activities that would create a sensation of separate moments, for the ADD person everything runs together, unbraked, uninhibited. Because Phyllis experiences time as a constant, unpredictable flow, it is extremely difficult for her to accurately guage the passage of time.
Interruptions
Distractability, a hallmark trait of ADD, also plays a role in Phyllis's poor time awareness... Bouncing somewhat randomly from one focus to the next, her sense of passage of time is easily thrown off. [The authors also discuss the role of internal distractions, the here-and-there ADD mind, in distorting our time sense.]
Time as a series of "nows"
For many adults with ADD, life is experienced as a series of "nows". Phyllis has difficulty keeping a focus on her long-term priorities because she is continuously caught up in the "now" of her immediate experience."
--from ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize your LIfe, by Kolberg and Nadeau. Lots of practical coping techniques in this valuable reference.The authors also comment on the resulting "plenty of time" thinking that results--it's not due immediately and ADD'ers have a very hard time forseeing the demands on their time, so the mind may see "vistas of ten-hour days one after the other like the open plains of Kansas" when in fact a lot of that time is already committed to other responsibilities and the daily business of living and running a household or family.

So yeah, it's hard to set a realistic schedule, hard to stick to it when you don't have any sense of the passage of time. As I get better with my schedule, I'm starting to realize just how HUGE a challenge the transitions are for me... Transitioning often takes more time and effort than the task itself.

And then there's hyperfocus... you have 20 minutes til time to leave, so you sit down to a five minute task and when you next become aware of time, an hour has gone by... and it feels like moments. I've started using timers in self-defense.

This carries a lot of regret for me. It's all tied up with why so many ADD'ers despite their best efforts seen their goals slipping away from them, been frustrated by their inability to consistently and effectively focus on and pursue long-term goals that should have been well within their reach. I used to be constantly bewildered by this. Now I'm only surprised at how well I've done given what I've been up against.

Even without medication, I'm finding that an understanding of the problem and good coping techniques are making a tremendous difference in my effectiveness and the emotional impact of the time challenges. I hope hope hope that medication will help with the transition problem, which at this point is my biggest bugaboo.

Thanks for starting this thread. It's such a crucial challenge to understand.

charonshanti,

You are the best! It's awesome to read someone echo and articulate your experience. I've been so lonely this past weekend, wanting to talk to someone who not only understand my plight but could say, "here do this or read this."

The sources you've sited say it so well especially

I also live with constant overwhelm because everything without a deadline feels like it's due "NOW".That's so true. I think why that was not an issue this time was because of my meds which I lacked in the past. When I first re-started college in September and found out what I had to do, I felt that every was due "NOW" and; of course, got stressed because I could not everything NOW.

I guess as much as I know about myself and my experience of now-ness (both, "Oh, I have enough time" and the "I don't have enough time"); it kinda of hit me this weekend what I'm dealing with.

Meds have helped me socially, they've helped my focus better, but they haven't given me a sense of time; and maybe they never will.

Thanks for the reference and for the tips on managing.

SL

To me one of the huge ironies of living always in the present is that while it always seems like I have plenty of time and leave things til the last minute, I also live with constant overwhelm because everything without a deadline feels like it's due "NOW".
Dido to this, description is exactly how I feel.

Wow Bravo guys, I am so impressed how well you can eplain yourselves. I could learn a lot from you.

Grade A,

I'm not much good and getting things done, but I'm good at explaining them :D.

Thanks for throwing your voice in with the Timeless Ones.

SL

SolarLife, you are definitely a kindred spirit! You've started a couple of threads recently that have just hit on what I was thinking about. Thanks. It's been a real encouragement to see what you're doing and say "I can do that too!"

I only learned about ADD about 6 weeks ago now. It was life-altering to 'see' myself in what I was reading and have the pieces fall together. I was just ready to really look into sleep disorders when I read an essay on 'the hyperactive mind' at about.com. Bingo. Sleep disorder explained. (There's another thread there I love about "paralysis of will" having to do with ADD.)

Finally learning about ADD has eased a lot of resentment and frustration I wasn't even really aware of. I try so hard and I've used every time management tool in the book. I went from some point in college knowing I could do anything I set my mind to to knowing (in the back of my mind) that so many of my goals were inexplicably out of reach... finally figuring out what's wrong is such a relief.

It seems like every day I discover some new way that ADD has profoundly affected my life and how I function moment-to-moment. It's been exciting and devastating. Looking back and saying "Wow, look what I managed to accomplish anyway!" Feeling like I finally have the tools for sustainable progress on my goals. Then looking forward and wondering if I found the tools too late in life for some of my dreams. What a roller coaster.

The most annoying thing? (Well, at the moment.) If my mind isn't otherwise engaged, I find myself observing and mulling over every aspect of my life, constantly discovering yet another way that ADD is affecting how I function, and finding a work-around. It's like an obsession. Educational and productive, but argghhh. It feels like I've put aside all my normal enthusiasms and interests to the sole focus on observing my own brain, and it's tiresome. Bring on the meds, oh doc.

SolarLife, you are definitely a kindred spirit! You've started a couple of threads recently that have just hit on what I was thinking about. Thanks.

I only learned about ADD about 6 weeks ago now. It was life-altering to 'see' myself in what I was reading and have the pieces fall together. I was just ready to really look into sleep disorders when I read an essay on 'the hyperactive mind' at about.com. Bingo. Sleep disorder explained. (There's another thread there I love about "paralysis of will" having to do with ADD.)

Another effect is that learning about ADD has erased a lot of resentment, defensiveness and frustration, and replaced it with hope. I try so hard, and I've used every time management tool in the book. You probably know the feeling of getting all scheduled and organized, at the same time knowing from past experience that it wasn't sustainable. I went from some point in college knowing I could do anything I set my mind to to knowing (in the back of my mind) that so many of my goals were inexplicably out of reach... finally figuring out what's wrong is such a relief.

This month has been an exciting and devastating journey, day by day realizing how profoundly ADD has affected my life and relationships and how I function moment-to-moment. Looking back and saying "Wow, look what I managed to accomplish anyway!" Feeling like I finally have the tools for sustainable progress on my goals. Then looking forward and wondering if I found the tools too late in life for some of my dreams. What a roller coaster.I know what you mean. Although I'm not new to the world of ADD, I am new to treatment, and really taking it seriously. You and I are somewhat at the same level.

Learning about all this does give a sense of liberation (just knowing why) and hope. It's tough and good and bad and good again....

I'm glad were learning together.

SL

This is so funny, SolarLife. Every once in awhile I get hyperfocused on editing my thread to say what I really want, and you had to come and quote me while I was editing so I got caught. :p

Dito! Now I don't feel so alone...god i feel like a stopwatch 24/7 but it never stops...

I came across an ebook (2002) by Martin L. Kutscher, M.D., about ADHD and how the current DSM-IV description does not adequately diagnose ADHD. He draws heavily on Dr. Russell Barkley’s research and says the “executive dysfunction” must be seen as a key part of diagnosis and treatment of ADHD.
SL
Yeay! Just found the book. ADHD book: Living Right Now, right? Great quotes. I'm ordering this one.

Dito! Now I don't feel so alone...god i feel like a stopwatch 24/7 but it never stops...You ain't alone...tick, tock, tick, tock....

SL

This is so funny, SolarLife. Every once in awhile I get hyperfocused on editing my thread to say what I really want, and you had to come and quote me while I was editing so I got caught. :pI sit at my computer and attempt school work and every time someone posts something I get an alert and off I go.

At least I keep you on your toes :D.

SL

annoying thing? (Well, at the moment.) If my mind isn't otherwise engaged, I find myself observing and mulling over every aspect of my life, constantly discovering yet another way that ADD is affecting how I function, and finding a work-around. It's like an obsession. Educational and productive, but argghhh. It feels like I've put aside all my normal enthusiasms and interests to the sole focus on observing my own brain, and it's tiresome. Bring on the meds, oh doc.
There we go, keep it coming sounds like you are speaking for me. Love it!

I am doing the same thing, was surfing around the internet on ADD and stumbled across this site, and now I have been on here everyday, listening to what you guys have to say and sharing my own experiences. It has really been a help. The tremendous support is great. Gives me hope.

I can't believe how long it has taken me in my life to finally realize why I was so depressed, and just felt like I was different than everyone else. Like you Charon it has been devastating and relieving all at the same time. (But that is just me I can feel so many different emotions all at once, and it has always been this way).

Through my life I realize it has been a curse and a gift...more so the curse but at least now it has a name.

Thanks

Shifting from Agenda A to Agenda B is a difficult task requiring good executive function. Pulling yourself out of one activity and switching to another--transitioning--is innately difficult, and requires effort and control. (Kutschner)
SL
Ok, so I've blocked out my schedule visually. (A little more visibly than before I learned about ADD.) I have a reasonable task list worked out. I set timers, my day is under control UNTIL having solved all those bottlenecks, I come smack up against a new bottleneck.

Transitioning from from one task to the next can take 15 minutes on a good day. Not total, oh no. 15 minutes every time I pause to switch tasks. Which is ridiculous when you're dealing with 6 10-minute tasks. Should be able to get it done in an hour, right? Had it been one comparable project I could have done it an hour; I wouldn't have to stop and change gears every few minutes. I figure part of it is the innate difficulty of switching tasks for ADDer. Add to that the difficulty a lot of us have determining our last task is actually finished, and the mind occasionally darts back to that to check on some detail, and then actually focusing on the next task to see what that is without getting distracted...

Well. I need a reset button. Maybe a ritual. Task is finished and moved off desk, otherwise all task debris moved out of sight. 5 minutes for a cup of coffee, quick hyperfocus on a game or other interesting work (set timer!) and try not to overwhelm if the next task is big. Really study the new task a moment to get your mind on it, then GO.

Think it would work? I am so easily distracted before my mind fully engages on the next task, that even if I manag to stay on task it's several minutes before I'm really functional on it. I had NO IDEA it was taking so long until today. I was busy blaming it on my planning skills, but there were no excuses there today.

ADD and Books Just a tid-bit before I pack mine up for the great ugggg move (I hate moving)

I agree that time can seem fluid to those who have ADD, however even when you are setting timers, blocking out slots of time (all good strategies) here is another consideration


“Fidget to Focus”
by Roland Rotz, Ph.D Sarah D. Wright, M.S., A.C.T.

page20-21

From a neurologist’s point of view, underaraousal is generally considered to be an under representation of critical neurotransmitters that facilitate the transfer of electrical impulses, which in turn represents a thought or action.. There continues to be a great deal of questions about how this process really works. However by watching and learning, we are beginning to understand one very important of the process: underarousal seeks arousal.



page 27

Procrastination adds interesting twist to this dilemma of boredom versus interest. Putting off a large project until the last minute can cause any one a high level of anxiety and even panic. For many of us with ADD, the state of mind that occurs at midnight when a project is due at 8:00am in the morning becomes the perfect state of being. As the deadline approaches the adrenaline combines with caffeine (and perhaps endotphins) to produce just the right amount of stimulant for us to complete the project. . . . .



Page 28
Seeking interesting and stimulating events crosses into every aspect of our lives. What is boring is watching a single television show . What is interesting is channel surfing while watching three shows simultaneously (and quite successfully). What is boring is sitting down to have a long conversation What is interesting is talking and walking along a beach (end quotes)

Just thought I would throw this out there for consideration, and I found "Fidget to Focus" it to be a very good book.

"Several ADD tendencies complicate the time management picture so profoundly that most conventional time management advice simply does not apply to adults with ADD. Take Phyllis, for example.... [her] poor sense of time is also affected by poor awareness of time itself--a trait very common to those with ADD. To Phyllis, time does not occur in neat little experiential bundles of minutes and hours. Drs. John Ratey and Ned hallowell note that instead of being able to carve out discrete activities that would create a sensation of separate moments, for the ADD person everything runs together, unbraked, uninhibited. Because Phyllis experiences time as a constant, unpredictable flow, it is extremely difficult for her to accurately gauge the passage of time.
Interruptions
Distractability, a hallmark trait of ADD, also plays a role in Phyllis's poor time awareness... Bouncing somewhat randomly from one focus to the next, her sense of passage of time is easily thrown off. [The authors also discuss the role of internal distractions, the here-and-there ADD mind, in distorting our time sense.]
Time as a series of "nows"
For many adults with ADD, life is experienced as a series of "nows". Phyllis has difficulty keeping a focus on her long-term priorities because she is continuously caught up in the "now" of her immediate experience."

--from ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize your LIfe, by Kolberg and Nadeau.

Lots of practical coping techniques in this valuable reference. charonshanti,
Thank you for posting that excerpt! I wish I would have had the above quote back when I was defending my position in this thread --> How to tell boss about ADD? Lateness (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31060) Perhaps my posts in that thread would not have come across so defensive (as I feel it did) if I would have had that informative quote to back me up! :o

I think I might have to read this book "ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize your Life" (even though I am no longer late anymore.)

BTW, if "most conventional time management advice simply does not apply to adults with ADD", what kinds of unconventional time management advice do they suggest then in the book?? You really have me intrigued! :) Give me just one good example and I'll place that book on my Christmas list today! LOL :D

Thank you to everyone who posted in this thread! Each of you explained yourselves very eloquently! :)

Transitioning from from one task to the next can take 15 minutes on a good day. Not total, oh no. 15 minutes every time I pause to switch tasks. Which is ridiculous when you're dealing with 6 10-minute tasks. Should be able to get it done in an hour, right? Had it been one comparable project I could have done it an hour; I wouldn't have to stop and change gears every few minutes. I figure part of it is the innate difficulty of switching tasks for ADDer. Add to that the difficulty a lot of us have determining our last task is actually finished, and the mind occasionally darts back to that to check on some detail, and then actually focusing on the next task to see what that is without getting distracted...

Well. I need a reset button. Maybe a ritual. Task is finished and moved off desk, otherwise all task debris moved out of sight. 5 minutes for a cup of coffee, quick hyperfocus on a game or other interesting work (set timer!) and try not to overwhelm if the next task is big. Really study the new task a moment to get your mind on it, then GO.

Think it would work? I am so easily distracted before my mind fully engages on the next task, that even if I manag to stay on task it's several minutes before I'm really functional on it. I had NO IDEA it was taking so long until today. I was busy blaming it on my planning skills, but there were no excuses there today.It's tough realizing the immense amount of mental focus we spend on something that doesn't require it for most. One of the books I was reading (sorry, can't remember the reference) said that certain task for most people require, say 50% of their brain, while for us, 100% (percentages for example only, not empirical numbers). Yesterday, in my regular postings on the Adderall section of this forum, one of the members responded to my discovery of "time" as an issue and said he, too dealt with this. He encouraged me to (try) stop thinking about things too much and to just do.

Maybe in the those transistion times when shifting focus from A to B is difficult we instead just jump in and start do the new project without the usual preamble of thought. Wishful thinking? We'll see.

Again, I can't site the source, but a story came out recently about how the brain reacts to certain attentional states (so-called normal states). For instance, I person can't fall asleep and tries to focus on going to sleep. Apparently some part of the brain see this as a deprivation and will awaken more in response to this assault on its status quo. This tendency applies to smoking cessation, panic attacks, etc. The point is that by resisting "x" the brain neurologically circles the wagon and tries to protect "itself" from what one is trying consciously to avoid or do. The moral: do the opposite of what your trying to accomplish. Can't sleep try to stay awake; feel panic, then confront it and really try to feel panic; trouble transitioning to the next task, then confront it by defiantly attending to it.

I know I attend to this forum to learn and grow and share but also because it keeps me busy in non risk taking work while other more pressing matters requires my attention.

Plus be sure to read mead823's great post after yours and before this one that illuminates the reasons for being a mental daredevil with procrastination.

mead823,

"Fidget to Focus" is on my must read list!

I feel like I'm finding pieces to a jigsaw puzzle, the placement of each filling in the gaps of perception.

One major piece of the puzzle was Dr Thomas Brown's description was how the ADHD brain can't start a task until it's an acute emergency.

And now your quote from "Fidget to Focus" offers a different angle (and another piece of the puzzle) on the same process.

If you give me four hours to write an essay, I'll sit and write and rewrite, but usually I'll scrap what I've done and with the deadline ominously looming, I will mentally focus in an almost automatic way: the words flow as if from an untapped well. I've only had this experience on a handful of occasions, but they always preceed the impending deadline.

I find at night, when I go to bed I read better than earlier in the day when I have more time. It is as if the deadline (in this case sleep) trumps the other distractions that normally fight for my attention. In bed there is no internet, no TV, nothing but me and the book.

I'm curious what Dr. Rotz, et al; has to say. What to do about this underaroused brain of mine???

Thanks mead for this very timely post.

SL

Procrastination adds interesting twist to this dilemma of boredom versus interest. Putting off a large project until the last minute can cause any one a high level of anxiety and even panic. For many of us with ADD, the state of mind that occurs at midnight when a project is due at 8:00am in the morning becomes the perfect state of being. As the deadline approaches the adrenaline combines with caffeine (and perhaps endotphins) to produce just the right amount of stimulant for us to complete the project.

If you give me four hours to write an essay, I'll sit and write and rewrite, but usually I'll scrap what I've done and with the deadline ominously looming, I will mentally focus in an almost automatic way: the words flow as if from an untapped well. I've only had this experience on a handful of occasions, but they always preceed the impending deadline

I've found this to be true--it's much easier to truly focus on a project when the phone isn't ringing, all is quiet around me, and the adrenaline has finally overcome the paralysis so I'm really, really focused--and the project just flies. It's not truly satisfactory because later you know you could have done better work in a more organized fashion--but it's satisfying while you're doing it. And after you crash (after you finally wake up, I should say) your brain is all happy with itself after all the hyperfocus time.

For some reason the only comparable time (for me) is time you've 'stolen'--you had it scheduled for something else, should have been somewhere else, but you didn't for whatever reason, and since it's already spoken for but you're going to do whatever you were supposed to, it's "free" time--kinda like time you shoulda been sleeping, but you can always make up sleep later, right?:cool: I've managed to deliberately carve work time out of my schedule that has the same feeling, but it isn't easy.

The book I'm reading gives examples of ADD'ers creating crisises--not consciously, but they get something out of the adrenaline and the stimulation. So we may tend to run late because of the poor time sense, but we may also be getting something out the daily crisis that our brain knows it doesn't want to give up.

As far as I understand it, ADD brains respond to the level of chemicals produced by fear and excitement, and (at least in the inattentive type) that means we actually are motivated to take action either when 1) something approaches the critical anxiety point or 2) when we are really enthusiastic about something. Correct me if I'm wrong.

My husband tells me that the result is that an ADD'er can look selfish, even if they aren't. There may be a lot they really want to do but just find next to impossible without playing head games with themselves---all those things that don't produce the adrenaline rush that gets the brain in gear (again, about.com has an excellent thread on 'paralysis of the will'. I call it overwhelm.) So the ADD'er finds it easiest to act on things that personally concern or interest them "in the moment", more than what might actually be the most important thing for the future (again, back to Kutschner--too busy bailing to look at the waterfall coming up.)

trouble transitioning to the next task, then confront it by defiantly attending to it.
Yeah, I like this. It's only in the last couple of days I realized what an appalling amount of time goes by while my brain assures itself the last task is finished, and after that it's like trying to get the attention of a little hyperactive kid on overdrive. Now isn't that a coincidence?:D It just burns through time and energy.

So here's my new transition coping skill, hope it works. When task A is done to a reasonable level (there's a whole different ADD challenge--determining 'reasonable level'!) I will put away everything related to it and tell myself OUT LOUD "that's done. Now you need to focus on {b}". Maybe do a quick stretch or change the music to encourage my brain to LET GO of the last task if it's being obstinate.

It still appalls me the level of simplification and self-direction I have to use to make my life ADD-friendly. I've spent too much of my life telling myself, 'millions of people in the country do this everyday. I can do it too.' I didn't realize most of them don't have to coach themselves through each step. Their brains do it for them. Life ain't fair.

Yesterday, in my regular postings on the Adderall section of this forum, one of the members responded to my discovery of "time" as an issue and said he, too dealt with this. He encouraged me to (try) stop thinking about things too much and to just do. I think you can take that one of two ways. The way most people say it, "Just do it" doesn't work for most ADD'ers. If it did ADD wouldn't be near as much of a challenge. "Oh, why didn't I think of that? Thank you. Now I'll just sit down and 'just do it'" Ok, that was catty, sorry. I think it takes a lot of thinking to set your life or work up in a way that you can 'just do it' most of the time.

The other way you can take that....on an individual project, thinking too much may be another form of procrastination, or it may be the stress between "I have to do it" "but I can't do it" "why can't I just do it?!" thinking that whirls around in the ADD brain as the deadline nears. In that sense "just do it" might mean negotiating with yourself to just dive in and find the step you can do. Not the whole project, just one step. And then find the next little step you can do, rather than thinking so far ahead that you get overwhelmed. Another ADD conundrum.

BTW, if "most conventional time management advice simply does not apply to adults with ADD", what kinds of unconventional time management advice do they suggest then in the book?? You really have me intrigued! :) Give me just one good example and I'll place that book on my Christmas list today! LOL :D
Seek, I love this book. It so completely explained my challenges to me. Normal time management tells you how you should or could spend your time, but the nature of ADD and time says that in followthru you're working against your ADD. Books for ADD time management should tell you how to work with your ADD.

Ok. Some good examples from the book ("ADD-friendly ways to organize your life", by Kolberg & Nadeau....)

Being on time. The authors deal with several ADD-related reasons for being late, so you can kinda tailor your solutions according to what your particular challenge is. In my case it meant making a "launch pad", attaching something colorful to my keys, and actually scheduling 15 min "departure time" into my schedule for all those 'one more thing' trips back into the house. For someone else who is pushed to create fuss & crisis because of a stimulation hunger, the authors suggest the "cutting it close" game in which you must arrive exactly on time, not a minute later or earlier, despite normal variables in travel time.;) For someone that is late because hyperfocus or stimulation hunger pulls them to the computer when they should be getting ready for work, they had other suggestions. For someone whose challenge is actually pulling something wearable out of the closet and getting presentable, the list is different. Or if you're late because work bores you silly. There's another section for ADD families trying to get out the door in the morning.:eek: For one family it included contact-paper footprints leading from the kid's beds as reminders of... well, you'll have to read it.

Normal time management schedules don't take into consideration ADD distractability, difficulty keeping track of time, overwhelm etc. Also that for ADD'ers habits are even more important than usual, but even harder to develop for several reasons.One section is about predicting 'hyperfocus' before it happens, keeping it from taking over and disrupting your schedule, how to use it as a strength, and ways to pull yourself out of it. :p

Decisions and Prioritizing: ADD creates challenges here too...which leads to difficulty and anxiety in everything from shopping to choosing a school to hiring a contractor... This book talks about how to avoid overwhelm and match appropriate levels of focus and energy to how important the decision is. One of my favorite parts talks about putting an end to the endless "research" that can go into a project--considering the limit you want to set. Time, number of proposals, financial, or my favorite--physical. As in set aside a box or drawer, throw all the possible trip brochures in there, and when it's full, those are the trips you choose from. :) Or make an 'aging' drawer for all the things you just can't decide right now if you want to keep--in six months, it will probably be obvious. Keeps all the things you can't decide what do to with from becoming clutter while you're deciding.

One of the things that hit home with me is having a "stop coach"--sometimes I get pulled into endless tiny adjustments on a project anyone else would say is finished. So now if I suspect I'm doing that, I'll take it to someone and ask their opinion. Either I get a 'yeah, it's fantastic' or 'just this one little thing...' either way it saves me hours.

Time management sections-of course using the strong visual side of ADD is part of the book's suggestions. For those that can't handle the hours and minutes calculations it has a section called "eat your time" (nibbles, bite, munchers). A lot of equally creative or wacky stuff designed for the ADD brain to have fun with in all the sections if the more straightforward solutions don't work for you.

For every aspect it offers 3 levels of solutions--1) what you can do for yourself to streamline the tough ADD challenges, 2) how you can involve friends or family, and 3) when and how to involve a professional coach, organizer or therapist.

So far just the level one stuff is making a huge difference in my life, whether it's adjusting my thinking or physically changing my workspace. For level 2, it suggests ways for your friends or family to be "coaches" or otherwise help, and it's not "Oh, I'm the poor little ADD'er, everyone drop everything because I need help". It gives examples of ADD'ers using their strengths for a friend or neighbor in exchange for "clutter coaching", for example. My ADD friends and I have done this for each other a lot without actually calling it that, but after reading this book I think we'll be able to help each other even more. The book cautions ADD'ers against trying to change too much at once, but it's still full of instant gratification. (Aha! That's how you do it! moments.)

charonshanti,

For someone who's new to all this, you've got it down!

I know what you mean by "stolen" time. If I choose to read book, fine; but if have to read it (the same book!), I'll put it off or won't read it at all.

If it wasn't for fear or excitment (or anger) I wouldn't get anything done. I don't know of any other way to get things done. My wife has seen me get things done with a venegence, but very inconsistently; but I'm motivated by some emotion; or if I'm angry. I'll clean. But if none of those components are there, I won't do anything substantial. And you're not wrong!

The OUT LOUD approach worked for a friend of mine who suffered looped thoughts. He therapist told him to say out load STOP! to break the vicious circle. We should try it for our "looped" thoughts and obsessions. I'll let you know if it works.

As for most people simply doing what we strive to do isn't fair but what's our option. We see things so much differently though. We don't get stuck in routine habits, we don't get bored by the little things, we add color to a quotidian world that is mastered by the clock. Although we struggle, we need to accept and adapt when necessary; march to our on drum when possible. I get down about not measurning up; but the next day I'm back to a new obsession having forgotten yesterday's funk as if it never existed. It's not easy living from mental paycheck to mental paycheck, but it ain't boring either :p.

As to the member who told me stop thinking so much and start doing, I left quoted him a bit out of context. He wasn't scolding or chiding me for not doing as much as sharing his own experience of not doing despite his obvious intelligence. The original post is here (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=351488&postcount=106).

You sum up what I've felt my whole life, charonshanti. It's a struggle, but we're growing. Thanks for for the quotes and creating the motivation. I think this kind of community helps because it helps us rise above what we thought possible.

SL

"After thinking this over one day, I decided to just take manythings for what they are, and limit how much I thought about things that distracted myself from what I wanted to do, and what I KNEW I should be doing. It isnt easy, but very posible to do. When I started trying to think less about what cought my attention, shifting my views to the future, and getting my head down to work, everything became so easier. Looking back, I wasted much of my time thinking."
Thanks for the link, SolarLife. Definitely words of wisdom. For me the key was this sentence: 'limit how much I thought about things that distracted myself from what I wanted to do'. It's so true. :) But hard. Hopefully meds will help?

Oh, and I like the expression "looped thoughts."

Thanks for the link, SolarLife. Definitely words of wisdom. For me the key was this sentence: 'limit how much I thought about things that distracted myself from what I wanted to do'. It's so true. :) But hard. Hopefully meds will help?

Oh, and I like the expression "looped thoughts."I'm way too "looped" for my own good :eyebrow:.

I can't wait to see your response to meds.

I was lucky that generic adderall worked so well and so quickly but I also know it's efficacy can suddenly stop.

SL

Seek, I love this book. It so completely explained my challenges to me. Normal time management tells you how you should or could spend your time, but the nature of ADD and time says that in followthru you're working against your ADD. Books for ADD time management should tell you how to work with your ADD.

Ok. Some good examples from the book ("ADD-friendly ways to organize your life", by Kolberg & Nadeau....)

Being on time. The authors deal with several ADD-related reasons for being late, so you can kinda tailor your solutions according to what your particular challenge is. In my case it meant making a "launch pad", attaching something colorful to my keys, and actually scheduling 15 min "departure time" into my schedule for all those 'one more thing' trips back into the house. For someone else who is pushed to create fuss & crisis because of a stimulation hunger, the authors suggest the "cutting it close" game in which you must arrive exactly on time, not a minute later or earlier, despite normal variables in travel time.;) For someone that is late because hyperfocus or stimulation hunger pulls them to the computer when they should be getting ready for work, they had other suggestions. For someone whose challenge is actually pulling something wearable out of the closet and getting presentable, the list is different. Or if you're late because work bores you silly. There's another section for ADD families trying to get out the door in the morning.:eek: For one family it included contact-paper footprints leading from the kid's beds as reminders of... well, you'll have to read it.

Normal time management schedules don't take into consideration ADD distractability, difficulty keeping track of time, overwhelm etc. Also that for ADD'ers habits are even more important than usual, but even harder to develop for several reasons.One section is about predicting 'hyperfocus' before it happens, keeping it from taking over and disrupting your schedule, how to use it as a strength, and ways to pull yourself out of it. :p

Decisions and Prioritizing: ADD creates challenges here too...which leads to difficulty and anxiety in everything from shopping to choosing a school to hiring a contractor... This book talks about how to avoid overwhelm and match appropriate levels of focus and energy to how important the decision is. One of my favorite parts talks about putting an end to the endless "research" that can go into a project--considering the limit you want to set. Time, number of proposals, financial, or my favorite--physical. As in set aside a box or drawer, throw all the possible trip brochures in there, and when it's full, those are the trips you choose from. :) Or make an 'aging' drawer for all the things you just can't decide right now if you want to keep--in six months, it will probably be obvious. Keeps all the things you can't decide what do to with from becoming clutter while you're deciding.

One of the things that hit home with me is having a "stop coach"--sometimes I get pulled into endless tiny adjustments on a project anyone else would say is finished. So now if I suspect I'm doing that, I'll take it to someone and ask their opinion. Either I get a 'yeah, it's fantastic' or 'just this one little thing...' either way it saves me hours.

Time management sections-of course using the strong visual side of ADD is part of the book's suggestions. For those that can't handle the hours and minutes calculations it has a section called "eat your time" (nibbles, bite, munchers). A lot of equally creative or wacky stuff designed for the ADD brain to have fun with in all the sections if the more straightforward solutions don't work for you.

For every aspect it offers 3 levels of solutions--1) what you can do for yourself to streamline the tough ADD challenges, 2) how you can involve friends or family, and 3) when and how to involve a professional coach, organizer or therapist.

So far just the level one stuff is making a huge difference in my life, whether it's adjusting my thinking or physically changing my workspace. For level 2, it suggests ways for your friends or family to be "coaches" or otherwise help, and it's not "Oh, I'm the poor little ADD'er, everyone drop everything because I need help". It gives examples of ADD'ers using their strengths for a friend or neighbor in exchange for "clutter coaching", for example. My ADD friends and I have done this for each other a lot without actually calling it that, but after reading this book I think we'll be able to help each other even more. The book cautions ADD'ers against trying to change too much at once, but it's still full of instant gratification. (Aha! That's how you do it! moments.) Well, one thing is for sure, you certainly are thorough! LOL :D Shoot, I was only expecting 1 good example! :)

Thank you charonshanti! Your a real sweatheart! :)

Forget my Christmas list, I think that book ought to go on my todays "To do" list! :)

Thank you for taking so much of your time to give me so much information about the book! I truely appreciate it!

Are you feeling those Rep points jumping up? ;)

Peace! :)

charonshanti,

seek's right, you are thourough! Once you do start meds you'll be writing a book :).

SL

You ain't alone...tick, tock, tick, tock....

oohh...Stop it!?!

~WonderLand

This is an interesting revelation, as it sums up my biggest problems with ADD other than poor concentration. I always thought my inability to stick toa schedule was a result of some indetermined "free spiritedness" that always stuck with me. Granted, it can be very helpful at points, because I am quite intuitive, but in general the "prisoner of the moment" tag fits me to a "T". The biggest problem with me is also transitioning. It's a problem I often faced when doing schoolwork. This tends to creep up during final exams, when I have several deadlines due in a row. Due to my procrastination, I often put off everything, which placed a terrible burden on my ability to transition between disparate tasks. Needless to say, it rarely worked, and as work grew more demanding, I often had to request extensions (quite humiliating) or simply manueveur my way around an assignment (my last semester of college, I managed to change my class standing from credit to audit in the last week [!] to avoid writing a final paper that I hadn't worked on). So, yes, transitioning has always been a tremendous chore for me. I wonder if anyone can relate to my specifics. I often am terribly unproductive immediately following lunch, but not because I'm tired. Often I cannot get anything accomplished between 12 and 2 pm. I cannot do work for different classes within a couple hours of each other. I often surf the internet while time flies by instead of doing my work. That's happening right now, actually. Gotta go.

This is an interesting revelation, as it sums up my biggest problems with ADD other than poor concentration. I always thought my inability to stick toa schedule was a result of some indetermined "free spiritedness" that always stuck with me. Granted, it can be very helpful at points, because I am quite intuitive, but in general the "prisoner of the moment" tag fits me to a "T". The biggest problem with me is also transitioning. It's a problem I often faced when doing schoolwork. This tends to creep up during final exams, when I have several deadlines due in a row. Due to my procrastination, I often put off everything, which placed a terrible burden on my ability to transition between disparate tasks. Needless to say, it rarely worked, and as work grew more demanding, I often had to request extensions (quite humiliating) or simply manueveur my way around an assignment (my last semester of college, I managed to change my class standing from credit to audit in the last week [!] to avoid writing a final paper that I hadn't worked on). So, yes, transitioning has always been a tremendous chore for me. I wonder if anyone can relate to my specifics. I often am terribly unproductive immediately following lunch, but not because I'm tired. Often I cannot get anything accomplished between 12 and 2 pm. I cannot do work for different classes within a couple hours of each other. I often surf the internet while time flies by instead of doing my work. That's happening right now, actually. Gotta go.I could have written this post. YOU STOLE MY THOUGHTS! :D I started this thread because I didn't realize the temporal aspects of ADHD.

Wow, I'm going to check out that book! I loved reading everyone's posts. I'm sorta playing catch-up. Oh how the time flies... I've gotta go get supper started!!

Ok, so I'm still harping on the book, but I wanted to share another favorite part, especially since it could apply to transitioning...

Everyone needs a quick break to regroup between serious projects, or to break every couple of hours to keep fresh on what they're working on. (unless they're in hyperfocus, in which case real time ceases to exist until it snaps back into place and 'thwacks' you with a vengeance a few hours later.)

For the ADD'er, this is a serious problem. What in the world can you do for 15 minutes that won't stretch into a hour, two, three.... oh, if I check my email, I'm a goner for a good hour anyway:faint: . A quick look at another project or your schedule and you're suddenly hyperfocused on another subject and you may never pull yourself back into what you should be doing. Look at a newspaper or magazine? Serious distraction threat here. I work from home so a quick break for coffee or to unload the dryer, and the kitchen floor catches my eye.... oh, the traps laid for the unwary ADD'er. Personally I set an alarm before leaving my desk, but I need to start carrying it with me or I won't always hear it. But the alarm doesn't block mental distractions.

The ADD-friendly guide to organizing your life suggests a "green break"--green because it's soothing. The green can be a picture of a pasture, or a window looking onto a green area. The idea is to have something relaxing to study but not so fascinating that you're going to drop everything to pursue it. Add some stretching and deep breathing.... It's relaxing and renewing without pulling you in so deeply that you can't get back to work.

Ok, so this one is totally not my cup of tea. But I had never before considered the benefit of designing break time so it doesn't drag you into the ADD'er time-warp netherworld. So my "green break" is entirely different and involves a candle and music that I love for 10 minutes and grates after 15, or maybe a window that does NOT overlook anything I've neglected to do! I'm just grateful for the idea of actually designing time off so it doesn't become time lost.

So, yes, transitioning has always been a tremendous chore for me. I wonder if anyone can relate to my specifics. I often am terribly unproductive immediately following lunch, but not because I'm tired. Often I cannot get anything accomplished between 12 and 2 pm. I cannot do work for different classes within a couple hours of each other. I often surf the internet while time flies by instead of doing my work.
Absolutely I can relate. Though sometimes for me it switches with the season and becomes 2-4 pm. that I'm just not mentally with it. It's worse if I don't eat lunch--or eat something junk foody. It's also worse if the unencumbered roaming of the ADD mind keeps me awake chasing trivial & looped stream of consciousness stuff til the wee hours of the morning.

Don't know about having to separate classes by a couple of hours. I think sometimes I think there's a certain way I have to "feel" or a mindset to get into before moving on to the next project, and I think I'm seeking a period of good hyperfocus to get my mind happy enough to go on. Which would be great if my mind would agree to come out of hyperfocus when I call it. It's usually happier there. :cool: This seems to be to be closely related to the 'stimulation hunger' that often comes with ADD, especially when facing stuff that's boring or overwhelming. Does any of this sound familiar to you?

I'm still trying to figure it out. I'm finding that the more healthy time habits I build the less encroaching this part is.

The book I'm reading gives examples of ADD'ers creating crisis’s--not consciously, but they get something out of the adrenaline and the stimulation. So we may tend to run late because of the poor time sense, but we may also be getting something out the daily crisis that our brain knows it doesn't want to give up.

I have believed for a long time ADDers brains simply needed more stimulation to engage focus, or the areas responsible for sustained attention. Perhaps the cells are resistant to turning loose of dopamine, or using it kind in a like manner to type ll diabetics cells are resistant to insulin.

I see the plight of attached connotation to ADD much like those that the type 2 diabetic used to face. They were told they were diabetic because they we fat, well in reality what they had going was a vicious cycle. Hungry cells screaming they need insulin---insulin released but not enough to get into cells because the cells them selves were resistant ---cells continue to scream because they can’t “eat” without enough insulin---body releases more insulin in an effort to shut cells up --- news flash to diabetic bashers insulin makes us hungry---with all that insulin in the blood stream diabetics really feel that hungry---then we pile a tendency to have slow metabolism ---they tend to be heavy and have a harder time controlling their weight Why? Type 2 diabetics are higher in races whose ancestors had go through periods of starvation - - type 2 diabetes is an adaptation to periods of starvation. If the food supply ends tomorrow type 2 diabetics will be the ones who survive the longest, thus it will cease to be a disease.

I see ADHD brain chemistry as working much the same way we simply need more stimulation to gain and maintain our attention weather one is hyperactive, inattentive or in-between. Hyperactive people have the body trying adapt to the need for increased stimulation the inattentive have simply gone to mental means to increase stimulation. Please be informed this is my “pet theory” not any thing in books or even being considered for study. This is ADD theory via ADD from the inside out not the out side in. Drugs do the stimulating for us so we don’t have to adapt to under arousal our selves. The book Fidget to Focus” was like a my perspective being validated through not neuroscience by occupational cognitive therapeutic means because I as a person who isn’t a scientist believe they are closer to the real McCoy, the scientist are merely seeing the results of the under aroused brain. . . .Fidget to Focus I find their suggests most useful because I am a fidget-er.


I prefer to see my brain as needing more stimulating than seeing myself as having a broken brain. . Frankly seeing my ADD as increased need for external stimulation has also proven more useful because I can use it as an over all basis for dealing with the problems traits.

Meadd823 personal perspective
ADD = boredom aversion
thus increased need for stimulation
this is global, applies to all of me

I can more readily stream line adaptations, strategies, ect. . . .

I don’t have to waste energy feeling broken or inferior, because depression simply decreases my motivation to change. If my brain is broken why bother doing any thing about it , isn’t any thing I can change.
For me personally if I see my brain as needing more stimulation then that puts my ADD into a realm I can do some thing about. With me, attitude is just about every thing, some action is required.

Thanks for reading if you managed to get through all this. . . . .congrates

I see ADHD brain chemistry as working much the same way we simply need more stimulation to gain and maintain our attention weather one is hyperactive, inattentive or in-between. Hyperactive people have the body trying adapt to the need for increased stimulation the inattentive have simply gone to mental means to increase stimulation. Please be informed this is my “pet theory” not any thing in books or even being considered for study. ...For me personally if I see my brain as needing more stimulation then that puts my ADD into a realm I can do some thing about. With me, attitude is just about every thing, some action is required.

Thanks for reading if you managed to get through all this. . . . .congratesInteresting way to phrase it, Mead. I find myself acting on that thinking more and more.. just in small ways.

I used to be extremely conservative in my clothing, work tools, decorating (just small splashes of color in basically neutral space). And made conservative healthy, b o r i n g food. Well, ok, not boring, but not--exotic! fun to look at!

I now want anything I'm using to deal with my add to be fun to use, colorful, unique, have an interesting feel... brightly colored stopwatches, a timer that looks like a construction tape measure that winds in the tape as it counts down..somehow to appeal to the part of me that wants something a little more fun to play with.

And food, well... I now deliberately pick up a couple of things at the store that will appeal to the stimulation hunger--unusual tastes, something just fun to eat. I call it 'stim food', to nibble on when work just gets too boring. Fortunately I'm surrounded by restaurants that cook food filled with spices I've never heard of, so there's plenty for the palate to puzzle over. (This one would be easy to overdo, but it only takes a little to get my brain's attention.) Or I'll use music with some kind of unique sound or humor to it. Something to jog the brain into 'hey, this is kinda fun' mode. I've been known to dance through my housework--hey, it wasn't the most efficient, but it was effective!

I read once that women who craved various kinds of food craved excitement, wanted to feel more fully alive. Hah! what a crock, I said as I munched on my chile-pepper coated mango sucker. Doubt that. --Funny that almost the exact same words came up in a discussion of the ADD hunger for stimulation. I'm starting to take them more seriously, and work with this tendency in the areas of my life that bore me into stupidity.

And of course, there's the constant search for a creative way to look at boring mental work and find the interesting in it, to engage the whimsical mind.

And food, well... I now deliberately pick up a couple of things at the store that will appeal to the stimulation hunger--unusual tastes, something just fun to eat. I call it 'stim food', to nibble on when work just gets too boring. Can I come over to eat if I'm ever in Cali? :D

And of course, there's the constant search for a creative way to look at boring mental work and find the interesting in it, to engage the whimsical mind.

Making a game of it is my steady fall back, some thing more challenging than others.

Sounds like you are on the right track. . . . .really I see the same things that main stream does I just refuse to see them as “broken” , Why should needing more mental stimulation be seen as broken any way? Sounds like a hungry brain to me.

If any thing we tend to be interesting. I have found even racing my self against the cereal dropped on the floor, or hopping on one foot through dishes is more interesting than doing the dishes or sweeping a floor.

Can I come over to eat if I'm ever in Cali? :D
Hey, Seek. There's a Thai restaurant in town with coconut chicken lemongrass soup, sorta hits different tastes as it moves toward the back of the mouth. Very cool. And a dozen east indian restaurants with samosa, curried chicken of all varieties..... yum. I can make some of it, but honestly---I still don't know what half the flavors are. Can't believe KC doesn't have great ethnic restaurants too.... well, maybe I can. I was a jayhawker for awhile, a couple of decades back.


Mead, oh, Mead. Can't decide whether you're washing dishes while hopping on one foot or just playing hopscotch between the dishes. ???? Made my day imagining the possibilities. :D

I actually started this post because I found this fantastic quote about time and the add mind in an earlier thread. http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18510. I can't figure out how to just send you to that particular post, so I copied it here with thanks to scuro....

Stevo, I was recently reading over Barkley's lecture from SF2k. Thought I would post it for you, just case you were still interested in this info.

"This one you probably didn’t think about, the psychological sense of time that comes out of this executive function, your ability to sense the passage of time. Why do we have this? To anticipate and get ready for the future. Without this system, by the way, there would be no past tense or any future tense in language, because what are you referring to? When you use past and future tense you are referring to images of the past and anticipation of the future.

So, here’s a prediction, never attempted by any theory of AD/HD. AD/HD delays all of this. Well does it? Do people with AD/HD have problems with sense of time? You’re damn right they do. Do people with AD/HD have trouble anticipating the future? You bet. They live in the now. Like Dennis the Menace, isn’t it always now? Don’t talk to me about tomorrow. Don’t talk to me about next week. Doesn’t matter. Now, now, now.

Here’s an interesting prediction: I predict that if you study young preschool AD/HD children, they will not develop past and future tense in language as early as other children. If my theory is wrong, you won’t find any differences, and that part of the theory is dead. But I will bet you it’s true. I’ve actually already tested it through interviews with parents about AD/HD children. They do not refer to time, the past and future in language as much as other children do. Other children start talking about tomorrow, next week, next month much earlier than AD/HD kids do. AD/HD adults have a terrible sense of time. We have now finished our fifth study of sense of time. AD/HD destroys it, right down to intervals as short as 10 seconds. Time escapes them.

Now, let’s juxtapose that finding with this finding. Modern human culture worships time. The bestselling books in nonfiction section of bookstores are time management books, and you have a disorder that destroys the sense of time. AD/HD is the consummate disorder of time management. We start out living in the now as preschoolers. As we get older, this window opens. Looking back, to look ahead, and it gets wider and wider and wider, until in our early 30s this window is 8-12 weeks out. Most of the decisions you and I are making are for events that lie about 8-12 weeks out. We can anticipate further out, but that’s our average fore-period for decision-making. AD/HD slams that window shut. AD/HD makes you live in the now. What does that mean? It means you will not get ready for the future until it’s here.

So, let me give you another name for AD/HD: time blindness. AD/HD creates a nearsightedness to the future, a temporal myopia, so that the individual is always waiting until the event is here, imminent, before they do anything to get ready. That is a fascinating insight into this disorder, that people with AD/HD have a temporal neglect syndrome. They cannot anticipate events that lie ahead and use it to guide their behavior, and it doesn’t matter how much you talk about the future. They will not get ready for an event until it crosses their time horizon, and their time horizon is right here, smack in front of them. Now you know why everything is left to the last minute all the time, always late, never ready, never prepared, never has materials, right? Do you see how devastating AD/HD in a modern culture would be?"
What a perfectly spot-on commentary.

charonshanti,

Your timing is amazing. I'm about to call it a night (were both in PST) after I finished writing a rather angry post (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=353207#post353207) about today in my regular Adderall thread, and here you go and gladden me. I'm not sure why Barkley's quote gladdens me; it really confirms my lament; yet its clarity so describes my life I can't help but smile :D.

Thanks for finding that and thanks Scuro for the original.

Thanks for the serendipity.

SL

AD/HD slams that window shut. AD/HD makes you live in the now. What does that mean? It means you will not get ready for the future until it’s here.

When the future is here it is the present, which becomes the past the second it enters into our memory. . . . .with my ADHD not holding onto the past means I don’t waste energy holding grudges from the past either . . I move on pretty quickly. . . . . seems like an even exchange to me. . . . . .so I have to have alarms, calendars, stimulating reminders like flashing lights, remembering why I don’t like to run late ect. . . . .




They cannot anticipate events that lie ahead and use it to guide their behavior, and it doesn’t matter how much you talk about the future. They will not get ready for an event until it crosses their time horizon, and their time horizon is right here, smack in front of them. Now you know why everything is left to the last minute all the time, always late, never ready, never prepared, never has materials, right? Do you see how devastating AD/HD in a modern culture would be?"

“They” I feel like an alien life form being studied in a lab. . . . . :rolleyes:

Do we lack total anticipation of future events??? I know I going to grow old and eventually die, I have known that for a long time. Maybe it simply isn’t arousing enough to stimulate our brain to engage in preparation until it becomes closer to the present. When the time is right on top of us then the holy cow adrenaline rush is stimulating enough to tackle the usually boring task of getting ready to go. I can be looking forward to an event however I can't think any events in which I looked forward to the preparation part.

Time is not out of the awareness of the ADHDer. . . .we just seem to measure it in terms of relative perceptions(as opposed to absolutes). . . for us the passage of time is relative to our interest in the activity (thus procrastination figures into play). . . . . To one who thinks I am "full of it" then simply have a seat in the nearest boring meeting and then get back to me. . . :)


Linking the universal application of my attempted explanation… giving evidence that I am not blowing smoke up the ole tail pipe.

Why is anger such a good motivator? I'll sit on my *** and do nothing, watch the dishes pile high in the sink and I won't lift a finger until something ticks me off.
~Above quoted from “angry post” hyperlinked in #38.~

Again adrenaline is a stimulating thing , the stimulation increases arousal. Under arousal seeks arousal, it is universal which is why it works so well for me. If I realize I am motivated by stimulation I can more freely choose what sort of stimulation I use to get me moving. I can find another way of motivating my self besides getting angry or running late. Think about it the most effective medication for the treatment of ADD is stimulants.

Seeing my self as some one with a closed window to time perception because I have ADD doesn’t motivate me very much however it does seem to be the way many choose to view it. The two perspective are not in conflict they pretty much say the same thing Think about it this way running late is running late, a sink full of dishes is a sink full of dishes weather one chooses to see it as an under-stimulated under aroused brain seeking arousal through stimuli or decreased executive functions, lack of ability to plan or closed windows, the only difference how one views the problem of dishes and tardiness. For me as a person when it comes to motivation perception is every thing. I use the perspective that will generate the most options to solving the most problems with the least amount of anxiety /depression.

This thread really is turning into one of my favorites. :)

Thank you charonshanti for posting yet another excellent (Scuro's) quote! :)

I kind of have a love/hate thing with Barkley. Many of the things he says seem right on the money, but then he'll go and blow it for me by saying something that I find offensive! LOL :D

Oh well, nothing and nobody is perfect I guess! :)

When the future is here it is the present, which becomes the past the second it enters into our memory. . . . .with my ADHD not holding onto the past means I don’t waste energy holding grudges from the past either . . I move on pretty quickly. . . . . seems like an even exchange to me. . . . . .so I have to have alarms, calendars, stimulating reminders like flashing lights, remembering why I don’t like to run late ect. . . . .I, too, experience the positives of not holding on to the past, of not holding grudges, down yesterday -- OK today, etc. My sister is plagued by her past and is dealing with those demons in therapy. I have regrets, but for me they lack any real emotive content and therefore pain.

But the negative part of time blindness is that the future's demands such as a history report due next Friday or the housework that awaits is all due NOW emotionally. It's good we get over the past with ease, but we (I) waste a lot a energy experiencing the urgency of the future's demands.

Alarms and lights and calendars are well and good, but how do you stick to them and learn to transition? I'm new to all this, I started meds thinking they would overcome these problems and I am quickly learning that that is not the case.

Again adrenaline is a stimulating thing , the stimulation increases arousal. Under arousal seeks arousal, it is universal which is why it works so well for me. If I realize I am motivated by stimulation I can more freely choose what sort of stimulation I use to get me moving. I can find another way of motivating my self besides getting angry or running late. Think about it the most effective medication for the treatment of ADD is stimulants.

Seeing my self as some one with a closed window to time perception because I have ADD doesn’t motivate me very much however it does seem to be the way many choose to view it. The two perspective are not in conflict they pretty much say the same thing Think about it this way running late is running late, a sink full of dishes is a sink full of dishes weather one chooses to see it as an under-stimulated under aroused brain seeking arousal through stimuli or decreased executive functions, lack of ability to plan or closed windows, the only difference how one views the problem of dishes and tardiness. For me as a person when it comes to motivation perception is every thing. I use the perspective that will generate the most options to solving the most problems with the least amount of anxiety /depression.This is an extremely important point you've made. Whatever the cause, whatever the limitations; things need to be done, so I need to learn to use stimulation to my advantage. I'm not sure how, but at least I have something positive to obsess on :rolleyes:.


"But most help [for behavioral dysfunction -- "time blindness"] involves external cues and supports, to teach the stronger parts of the brain strategies to compensate. Often, Dr. Denckla said, adults with executive deficits can be relatively successful, 'as long as there is another human being a co-author, a teacher, a wife who acts as an auxiliary frontal lobe to keep them on track.'" [ADD Forum Post (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=353207&postcount=116)]

Source:http://www.maaddsg.org/News_8_26_03.htmIs this assessment accurate?

Thanks meadd for being an external cue and shifting me to the positive.

SL

Time is not out of the awareness of the ADHDer. . . .we just seem to measure it in terms of relative perceptions(as opposed to absolutes). . . for us the passage of time is relative to our interest in the activity (thus procrastination figures into play). . . . . To one who thinks I am "full of it" then simply have a seat in the nearest boring meeting and then get back to me. . . :)

..... For me as a person when it comes to motivation perception is every thing. I use the perspective that will generate the most options to solving the most problems with the least amount of anxiety /depression.
Mead, I definitely have to agree that the passage of time is relative to our interest in the activity. And motivation is the consistent challenge; anxiety is the most consistent motivator for me but doesn't lead to the best results so I try not to use it. This is one area I hope meds will help.

Barkley's comments ring true for me but not entirely. For me it's more having a few time 'windows'--the immediate, about 6-8 hours out, and not quite 2 days out. Unfortunately they don't connect, so if dinner is due in 4 hours and I was making stew, that's just tough. My last window to take action on it was 2-4 hours ago. It's not that I don't still have time to make it, but I'm in the nebulous area of that particular time frame and can't translate available time into action. Weird but true. Did that make sense to anyone else? Or have I just put myself beyond normal ADD an into another dimension?:rolleyes:

kind of have a love/hate thing with Barkley. Many of the things he says seem right on the money, but then he'll go and blow it for me by saying something that I find offensive! LOL :D
My feelings, exactly, Seek.

:-) ADDers are task- and not time-oriented.
I appear to never get anything done when I schedule it - and yet get everything done.
I think.
Though most of my life is concentrated on systems to reduce everything to not much at all - so I've more time to do everything that isn't everything.

... but mostly which is fun.

I think.

:-) ADDers are task- and not time-oriented.
I appear to never get anything done when I schedule it - and yet get everything done.
I think.
Though most of my life is concentrated on systems to reduce everything to not much at all - so I've more time to do everything that isn't everything.

... but mostly which is fun.

I think.I've never had a schedule I didn't break yet I get things done -- just usually the last minute.

I've tried the "from 8 to 9am: read book X; from 9 to 10am: exercise...." Sounds good but I can't do it; it makes me anxious just writing it down.

I had a job that was extremely time sensitive and I was rarely late; but I would rush through it with a manic energy (even though I knew I was not late by the clock), because now I see that I saw or felt the deadline, not in 2 hours, but now. When a client would ask me to wait, I would but I got mad, even though I "knew" I had the time.

One final observation: if I get up early and have a six hour free time window for whatever, I feel like I have time to do things. But if I get up late, even a couple of hours and still have a six hour window, I feel rushed and feel like I don't have the time for anything. Odd.

When I go a movie or some such event I have to get there considerably early or I feel like I'll be late.

Tick, tock, tick, tock....

SL

The most annoying thing? (Well, at the moment.) If my mind isn't otherwise engaged, I find myself observing and mulling over every aspect of my life, constantly discovering yet another way that ADD is affecting how I function, and finding a work-around. It's like an obsession. Educational and productive, but argghhh. It feels like I've put aside all my normal enthusiasms and interests to the sole focus on observing my own brain, and it's tiresome. Bring on the meds, oh doc. Ain't that the truth :p

The most annoying thing? (Well, at the moment.) If my mind isn't otherwise engaged, I find myself observing and mulling over every aspect of my life, constantly discovering yet another way that ADD is affecting how I function, and finding a work-around. It's like an obsession. Novart noted this passage and it reminded me of something else I have noticed during my time here on our forums.

After the initial jubilation of finding our ADD forums wears off. I have noticed that two things start to occur.

One is the realization that you start getting easily irritated by some of the odd and/or idiotic questions that people come up with, such as, "Can ________ (Fill in your stimulant of choice) cause your toe-nails to turn aqua sea-foam green or yellow?" LOL :D

And the other realization that constantly obsessing/hyperfocusing about your ADD issues and/or constantly being reminded (By reading other's posts) about all the issues we regularly deal with because of our ADD can easily push one into a chronic dysphoric mood.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dys·pho·ri·c
n.
An emotional state characterized by anxiety, depression, or unease.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that most people's initial objective of coming here was to learn what they could, and then take that knowledge and move forward into a more happy and productive ADD life.

Therefore, don't get to caught up ruminating endlessly about your ADD.

Life is short. Make the most of it! :)

...

Therefore, don't get to caught up ruminating endlessly about your ADD.

Life is short. Make the most of it! :)

...
Thanks, Seek. Some of my other enthusiasms are starting to reawaken, which is reassuring. For the moment I'm letting the ADD 'obsession' run because it's giving me the energy to make changes in my life to 'fit' the ADD. But long term.... no way.

seek,

I participate in this forum to learn how to "move forward into a more happy and productive ADD life." I have no outlet in my life for sharing my joys and fear, successes and obsessions. This forum is my community -- however pathetic that may be.

I can't speak for charonshanti, but we're both new to all this; I've been on meds for only 9 or 10 weeks and I've learned some things this week that prompted me to create this thread in the first place. I guess my "initial jubilation is wearing off" and now I've entered the asking the "idiotic questions" phase, and I'm especially guilty of constantly sharing my latest obsessive/hyperfocus ADD issue every fifth post. From euphoria to dysphoria in neurochemical minute.

I know your purpose is to encourage growth and to live life and not to offend, but we need to be able to vent without fearing censure. To the experienced of this forum maybe our (mine) plaintive posts are passé but they're coming from real people hurting and crying wanting normality but living choas.

Life is short and I thank for that reminder, but life is also difficult sometimes and maybe a obsessive post is just a way of seeking a compassionate "it's OK."

I've probably overreacted, so if so I apologize in advance. This forum is awesome, with a tremendous team leading the way. I've been inspired by many of your posts, seek.

Alarms and lights and calendars are well and good, but how do you stick to them and learn to transition? I'm new to all this, I started meds thinking they would overcome these problems and I am quickly learning that that is not the case.

Solar, I completely understand your frustration. I'm working on the same stuff, as you know. Some days I do great, other days I don't care enough to do the stuff that makes my life better.

Having someone else serve as a 'auxillary frontal lobe' is definitely helpful for me. Family members can help, but nagging doesn't! Part of my game plan (this is three steps away from where I am, you're farther along than I am) is using an ADD coach or therapist to work thru specific pitfalls. SB's comment about systems to reduce everything into practically nothing is right where I'm at, and building those systems into habit is painfully slow because of ADD. Too often the bottlenecks only become apparent after I run smack into one and get knocked for a loop. I suspect that a coach or therapist may be the quickest route to success for the life/habit type stuff.

How to remember to set an alarm? BRIGHT RED, right where I do most of my work. When I don't see that one any more, I'll go for one of those funky chicken ones. I have a reminder note on my task list to set an alarm. Post-it notes on the fridge and computer. And when that doesn't work any more.... hopefully by then I'll be on meds and looking for an ADD coach.

Time is that black hole into which my life has disappeared...

Me :D

Solar, I completely understand your frustration. I'm working on the same stuff, as you know. Some days I do great, other days I don't care enough to do the stuff that makes my life better.

Having someone else serve as a 'auxillary frontal lobe' is definitely helpful for me. Family members can help, but nagging doesn't! Part of my game plan (this is three steps away from where I am, you're farther along than I am) is using an ADD coach or therapist to work thru specific pitfalls. SB's comment about systems to reduce everything into practically nothing is right where I'm at, and building those systems into habit is painfully slow because of ADD. Too often the bottlenecks only become apparent after I run smack into one and get knocked for a loop. I suspect that a coach or therapist may be the quickest route to success for the life/habit type stuff.

How to remember to set an alarm? BRIGHT RED, right where I do most of my work. When I don't see that one any more, I'll go for one of those funky chicken ones. I have a reminder note on my task list to set an alarm. Post-it notes on the fridge and computer. And when that doesn't work any more.... hopefully by then I'll be on meds and looking for an ADD coach.I think you're doing fantastic, and quite frankly, ahead of me without meds :o. The good news is this isn't a race but people suffering in similar ways sharing ideas and sometimes commiserating one with another. I'm contemplating a coach (or a couch, whichever's cheaper ;)) or someone or thing to be my external frontal lobe, too; or a lobotomy....

I'm not blowin' smoke, your post are very impressive given your short time in the active world of ADD. I draw inspiration from your research and innate good sense.

After two days of being rather angry and down about myself, I'm going to take meadd's advice and try to pick a "stimulant" with the least amount of anxiety and stress to get things done. Use my uniqueness to my advantage.

I am looking forward to your progress and growth because I know it'll help mine.

Thanks,

SL

Time is that black hole into which my life has disappeared...

Me :DAh, words to live by :eek:.

SL :)...

Solar, I'd edit my previous post but you'd catch me again.:rolleyes:

Have you asked your doctor if other meds are more effective with the time situation?

The rough part about this stage of learning to cope with ADD is that there are too many fronts to tackle at once, dontcha know. Too many places where the plans break down and we haven't worked out solutions yet.

My big revelations for the week: personally, it's more important for me to limit the amount of time I'll spend on a task or project than to determine exactly when I'm going to do it. Turns out I'm not so much an over-scheduler (well, a little of that too) as an over-doer.

And the other one: there are distractions so powerful that if I even get near their orbit I will go into hyperfocus. Argghh! And of course they're my favorite distractions. I'll spend 'just a few minutes' between tasks, and I will come out of it moody, frustrated, and with all my time gone. So some of my beloved 'break' activities are going to have to go strictly into leisure time, or no amount of scheduling or planning in the world is going to save me. Think this will get better with meds?

Thanks for the encouragement!

charonshanti,

I mentioned to my doctor about executive dysfunction (not time specifically -- was still absorbing all that), and he was somewhat dismissive. He said I need to get more blood to my brain or frontal lobe so exercise. Now I've learned a lot more about temporal perception and (in)action, so I'll be better equipped to ask better questions. Quite frankly, I doubt he's up on some of the research but he never claimed to be an expert in ADD/ADHD.

But from what I been reading, stimulant drugs especially Adderall are most effective, but not the only option. I was lucky that Adderall worked for me so well so quickly, but I can drink a pot a coffee and sleep, so my brain can tolerate that kind of stimulation. Your experience will vary and it could take time to find the right dose and the right medicine, months maybe. So be excited but realistic.

I, too, need to learn to put a time limit on certain tasks. That's hard. If you find a secret let me know. I've tried setting alarms to tell when to stop only to ignore them. Stubborn, huh?

I have a friend who probably has ADD. He owed a Sony Playstation and could sit and play for hours (6, 7, 8 +) at a time. I told him the only reason I don't own game system is because I'll sit down and never get up (plus I'm too poor to afford one :rolleyes:.) This forum is the best, but it's my temporal "black hole" and I probably need to schedule specific times to read and reply on it. Although when I reread that last sentence, part of me knows it'll never happen.

Meds plus structure will help. I'm on meds and I'm happier on the whole, less timid, more assertive; but I'm still procrastinating, I'm still letting "just a few minutes" elapse into an whole afternoon or evening or BOTH! on meds. Is my dose right? Maybe not. Is my "structure" insufficient? Yeah. Someone recommended lists and I could only respond with a I HATE LISTS :mad: comment. He thought that would be my response :rolleyes:.

You're preparing a much better foundation for starting meds than I did. I got an Adderall Rx, great response, euphoric, and then reality hit -- meds are only part of the picture. You know so much more than I did that when you start meds you'll be better prepared for the possible side effects, their limitations and strengths, and what external factors you need.

Your success is my success.

SL

Thanks, Seek. Some of my other enthusiasms are starting to reawaken, which is reassuring. That's good to hear! :) I feel it's important not to dwell to much on everything ADD in your life. I am more than just a person with ADD. I have many other important attributes and interests that need to be nurtured for me to continue to grow as a healthy individual. Our ADD forums can be quite addicting, and learning everything that we can about ADD can turn into our main focus in life if we aren't careful.

My fiance' mentioned to me that I seemed to be overly focused on my ADD. After I got over being offended by what she had said, I started thinking about what she was actually saying to me, and I realized that there is some truth in what she was saying.

She was saying, "Hey, your spending an inordinate amount of time focusing on your ADD, when there are many other important matters in life that could use a little of your attention". "Such as, family, and friends, and school, and our wedding plans, and our honeymoon plans, etc. etc.." "Life must go on regardless if you have ADD or not."

So, how does this relate to this thread? Well, it's all about how I am spending and/or wasting most of my time lately! And what better way to re-adjust and re-organize my priorities than by first admitting that I am putting most of my time and energy into reading, learning, and thinking about ADD, rather than acting on what I have learned, and moving forward, continuing to improve my life in a significant and meaningful way.

Peace! :)

...

The rough part about this stage of learning to cope with ADD is that there are too many fronts to tackle at once, dontcha know. Too many places where the plans break down and we haven't worked out solutions yet.

You have a point but perhaps in a way you have not realized . . .yet!

TOOOOOOO many fronts is howwww Hitler was defeated; it will defeat you as well. Try only modifying one no more than two things at a time. Stick with the one or two things until your work around have become habit. You didn’t wake up one day with all these challenges you will not likely fix them in one day either.





So some of my beloved 'break' activities are going to have to go strictly into leisure time, or no amount of scheduling or planning in the world is going to save me. Think this will get better with meds?

Some what yes enough to realize that some activities suck you in and you will not escape so until you get a little more success time in time management I would do just as you have suggested and assign them to leisure time. As you get more success in time management and learning to shift attention or task you may find the activities that once sucked you in to the point of inescapable become escapable.





He said I need to get more blood to my brain or frontal lobe so exercise.

Exercise buttocks exercise brain works for me. . . .exercise stimulates the circulation through out the body including but not limited to the brain. Many people find exercising to be of great benefit. So your doctor may have a point worth considering. After all our buttocks and our brain are attached to the same body. :rolleyes:


Exercise and ADD (http://www.addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=157)

Drug Free ADD Solution (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34015)




I was lucky that Adderall worked for me so well so quickly, but I can drink a pot a coffee and sleep, so my brain can tolerate that kind of stimulation

My brain can too but my bladder is a different story all together. . . :eek: . . the caffeine gets me going but not in the same way it does most.. .. .. :o

To the experienced of this forum maybe our (mine) plaintive posts are passé but they're coming from real people hurting and crying wanting normality but living chaos.

Yea but even here where we are all ADD, people are going to see things differently. Some times we aren’t going to like what they have to say or maybe we are offended by how it is said. Conflict to some degree is simply some thing that happens between people (some times even with in self) it is a part of belonging to any community.


In a way this too is a learning experience in that we can earn to deal with the challenges of diversity in a safer more ADD friendly atmosphere. Here I can read some thing that makes me mad and have time to think about how I am going to react or decide on weather or not I am going to respond at all. In real time face to face encounters we don’t have that time cushion.(or computer screen expression cover) :rolleyes:

I have found my encounters with diverse individuals here even those I found adversarial assisted me in learning how respond to those same situations and personalities I literally come face to face with in “real life” . . . . .




I participate in this forum to learn how to "move forward into a more happy and productive ADD life." I have no outlet in my life for sharing my joys and fear, successes and obsessions. This forum is my community -- however pathetic that may be.

You are not pathetic at least I hope not – :p Please note my join date and number of post. :eek: I have some seriously lengthy log in hours some times. . . . . . . :faint:





She was saying, "Hey, your spending an inordinate amount of time focusing on your ADD, when there are many other important matters in life that could use a little of your attention". "Such as, family, and friends, and school, and our wedding plans, and our honeymoon plans, etc. etc.." "Life must go on regardless if you have ADD or not."

So, how does this relate to this thread? Well, it's all about how I am spending and/or wasting most of my time lately! And what better way to re-adjust and re-organize my priorities than by first admitting that I am putting most of my time and energy into reading, learning, and thinking about ADD, rather than acting on what I have learned, and moving forward, continuing to improve my life in a significant and meaningful way.

Before the words above are taken to the offensive please note where it is they appear(here on ADDF). This person had to be in the same place we are to have written this. This is one of those multiple meanings depending on the reader perspective things. I think Seek is talking about seeking a balance, which can be a challenge. (Okay for me it is a challenge) Balance is for me is done in a very unbalanced way. :o

I know I am maintaining balance because I was tired of living in a run down place although I continued to participate here I also had to do what it took to save money and reach the goal of moving to some place nicer (I am currently moving can ya tell). Besides the information we gain doesn’t do any of us any good if we do not go out there and apply it (shrug)

I believe Seek is only reminding the reader to remember to live life, reach goals because there is so much more to us than being ADD.. . .I choose to see the good intention behind what Seek has posted. I also understand can’t choose for all who do read . . . . .words can go either way depending on our perceptions and attitudes (why they are so important)

... many true words written here - just want to add a little to the general sentiment.

The mind wants to work.

I like the term 'data-driven engine' for the mind - but alternatively - imagine a whole buncha' cogs within the mind - which when set in motion - are slow to slow - and so in effect crave stimulus.

energy in -> cogs turn
cogs turn
energy off -> cogs still turning (kinda' like inertia)
cogs still turning (not wanting to slow)
cogs <- craving energy to permit them to continue turning.

They cannot stop.

So - as Tammy writes - imagine an ADDer mind - imagine it as more hungry than a nonADDer mind - and imagine that although this is a *good* thing - regardless of one's environment - the ADDer mind has no choice other than to be -hungry-.

To re-iterate - hungry simply means demanding stimulus.

Stimulus - simply relates to the firing of neurones.

The more the firing of neurones - the 'happier' the mind.

The more ADD - the more ->- the more neurones which *need* to fire.

Now - imagine a situation in which one hasn't much to think about.

Imagine how - a mind which *wants* to ignite - will latch onto some easily accessible subject - one which it can get stuck into - one which'll cause quite some neural activity - and ***real importantly*** - one in which the neural activity is divorced from how good one is made to feel on account of such thoughts.

OCD, gaining 'satisfaction' (stimulation) from self-mutilation (mental,physical), the physical hyperactivity associated with {ADD, ADHD} (noting that physical movement diminishes as the mind becomes more engaged in thought) ... and as if that's not enough - a whole load more ... {really} ...

OK - so what am I getting at?

That much of what has been written above is correct - Seek is correct - the tendency to ruminate is simply the 'devil finding work for idle hands to do' ... {do any of you guys do 'the Smiths' [Hand in glove] ... :-) ...

Negativity towards the self or the other brings satisfaction (stimulation) where simply - this idea simplifies down to -thought-

... incidentally thought totally trounces other forms of neural stimulation ... and is the reason for its appearance from an evolutionary perspective - and for our existence - ADDers or ADD thought as an evolutionary advancement in and for man.

:-)

ADD is simply thought, evolved.

seek:

I lashed out at your post yesterday because I was having a bad weekend. I was obsessing on my ADD and what I need to do, I wanted all the right answers NOW, and my wife was not telling me want I wanted to hear -- she listens (much than she wants too or should :rolleyes:) but she nevers knows what to say and I say too much. I was peeved and couldn't find resolution.

All you were doing, seek, was sharing your perspective and what you've been through yourself and have learned and I was looking a fight. (And I've read a few "idiotic" questions here my self -- hopefully not all mine ;))

A couple of weeks ago my wife got mad at me and told me why does it always have to be about me. Sadly she was right, I do think about things too much and want to talk about them. She wants to see action and I want to talk about acting. Why she's stayed with me for eight years I'll never know :o.

When I was upset or in a mood (very common prior to Adderall), my mother would tell me put a smile on my face, which would just drive me up the wall. Your post was a sorta "put a smile on your face post" and it just set me off.

Re-reading it and your latest post and not feeling angry, you make great sense and I will count to ten next time before I hammer out a response. At least in that post I apologized in advance :D.

My avatar, SolarLife, is based on the work of Don Cupitt, whose writing emphasize living a radiate and giving life, not focused within but embracing the vicissitudes and contingencies we experience with openness and flexibility. To realize that the "self" we take so seriously is but a linguistic construct that can shift precariously as metaphors and experience shifts. To adopt the label ADD can be a good tool for adapting to life better but it can also be a straightjacket that can limit possibility. Balance and openness.

Thanks for being the catalyst for reminding me what my avatar means! and sharing your experience.

SL :)

meadd,

Great points one and all.

I try to tackle all fronts at once also and no one can do that and succeed. I'm going to take inventory over the next few days of what habit I want to develop and try to exclude all other resolutions until I can report reasonable success with the one or two. I'll report my progress as usual in my de facto journal linked below in my signature.

Exercise is great and I wasn't trying to discount my doctor's advice, but was merely saying that he didn't seem to find frontal lobe issue relevant to my treatment. Ultimately it may not be. Most ADD treatment includes a good diet and exercise, and, yes, the body and the brain are part of the same system.

Ah yes, coffee and the bladder :eek:. I trying to drink more water.

meadd, I understand your point about the inevitability of conflict, even within oneself (I know), and my post was a case in point. Next time I get upset with a post I'll slow down before hammering a reply, but I see nothing wrong with challenging a perspective or offering balance or the other side. But I think it's important to discern the poster's intention and seek's intention was certainly good. And, as you've said, even if the intention isn't good learn from it too.

I don't know what balance is. Earlier in the year I was exercising, eating great, had quit smoking, quit coffee(!), and was feeling great. I decide to go back to school and once the new "obsession" enter my brain, I stopped the exercise, etc. This habit goes back 20+ years. So seeks advice for balance is good but so foriegn to my way of thinking and experiencing life.

Maybe that's what set me off with seeks advice: he says stop obsessing on ADD and live life -- and I think, "but I don't know how, help!" It's a catch-22!

But there are many things I can do and this exchange is just the external frontal lobe I need to shake loose the inertia and to work on applying what I'm learning.

Thanks for the attitude adjustment :D.

SL

SB_UK,

That sums it up. Stimulation is the issue, whether through a productive activity (= seek) or a hyper-obsessive thought process (= me), the brain is getting stimulation.

Noted neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinas wrote is his fascinating book i of the vortex: from Neurons to Self (MIT Press, 2002) that "thought is action internalized"; that is, since prediction is the ultimate function of the brain, thought evolved to allow better prediction of one's environment.

Since ADDers require more cerebral stimulation and as, SB_UK has so rightly pointed out, thought trumps all other forms of stimulation, it's no wonder I (we) can spend so much time thinking, worrying, obsessing, and not acting. Neurons don't care if the "host" is anxious or worrying or obsessing; if thinking gives stimulation why act.

SB_UK, if I'm reading your post right, that make so much sense and helps see what I'm doing. Let me know if I've misread you please.

SL

QUOTE=SL
...thought evolved to allow better prediction of one's environment...
/QUOTE
How I wish that was QUOTE=SB ...
... you have it down *exactly, correctly* ... **really** ***so*** ...

big ->- ) [[[context ->- :-) -<- ]]]

QUOTE=SL
...thought evolved to allow better prediction of one's environment...
/QUOTE
How I wish that was QUOTE=SB ...
... you have it down *exactly, correctly* ... **really** ***so*** ...

big ->- ) [[[context ->- :-) -<- ]]]SB_UK,

You're a trip! :D

I had some errands to run and I've have been thinking a lot about your post. It was like a light bulb went on. I think the way most people do. From an ADD brain's perspective: why do if you can think -- stimulation is stimulation. The unhappiness, the dis-ease, the sadness, the anger, the enthusiasm are all ways cerebral stimulation, the host be damned.

So my wife, who is mostly "normal," :p acts more than she thinks, and can't understand why I talk so much about doing something instead of just doing it. I talk so much about it because I think so much about it and I think so much about it because it is the best neural stimulation for my ADD brain. Wow. Action is not as stimulating so it takes a neurological backseat on the whole.

Awesome revelation and quite helpful in some way I think I hope....

Thanks again,

SL :)

QUOTE=SL
To realize that the "self" we take so seriously is but a linguistic construct that can shift precariously as metaphors and experience shifts.
/QUOTE

QUOTE=from today
=http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=353428&postcount=9
... the general idea underneath the increased expressivity described by
the academic discipline of "semiotics" ->- check out a coupla'googls [search-semiotics,metonymy,metaphor,synecdoche,Saussure] ->-
http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/S4B/sem07.html --- the merest of tastes from that site --- as Big Wally's quips ... 'reality is a cliché from which we escape by metaphor.'
/QUOTE

So - yes - ADD as thought evolved, as the linguistic construct {model} evolved - from linearity into non-linearity - from words to between the lines - from simple semantics into semiotic chaotic - though ... not really.
Simply organization, evolved :-)

QUOTE=SL
To realize that the "self" we take so seriously is but a linguistic construct that can shift precariously as metaphors and experience shifts.
/QUOTE

QUOTE=from today
= http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=353428&postcount=9
... the general idea underneath the increased expressivity described by
the academic discipline of "semiotics" ->- check out a coupla'googls [search-semiotics,metonymy,metaphor,synecdoche,Saussure] ->-
http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/S4B/sem07.html --- the merest of tastes from that site --- as Big Wally's quips ... 'reality is a cliché from which we escape by metaphor.'
/QUOTE

So - yes - ADD as thought evolved, as the linguistic construct {model} evolved - from linearity into non-linearity - from words to between the lines - from simple semantics into semiotic chaotic - though ... not really.
Simply organization, evolved :-)Can't wait to delve more into the linked website, and I like the Stevens' quote.

Been a causal disciple of Richard Rorty as of late; shakes the existential foundations a lot....

Thanks,

SL :)

... the mind viewed through the eyes of the process which instated it - which lead to modern man - to ADDer - is all that is needed to understand the whole job lot.
Where the lot actually represents - ADD, and then mental disorders, and then evolution of life and then the origins of life and then the origin of the Universe from first principles.
I'm real glad you felt the depth charge --- funny things'll start to happen now - your reality will strengthen - it's the trip.
You'll find Shakespeare a breeze - will understand Plato - will not struggle with the pattern philosophy meandered through over the last X thousand years.

And as you know - from my post to you several weeks ago - will understand the logic to the pattern of flashes which're represented on your avatar.
The butterfly effect.

kick me if I'm writing stuff which you already know - I see from this thread alone that you have a great understanding of your self.

So my wife, who is mostly "normal," :p acts more than she thinks, and can't understand why I talk so much about doing something instead of just doing it. I talk so much about it because I think so much about it and I think so much about it because it is the best neural stimulation for my ADD brain. Wow. Action is not as stimulating so it takes a neurological backseat on the whole.

Awesome revelation and quite helpful in some way I think I hope....

Thanks again,

SL :)
Fascinating, i'm the complete opposite; action is completely stimulating, and is the backbone of my motivation. I understand the preference towards perseveration, its compelling at times to think something out completely, especially when we've spent so much time being told we are "too impulsive". I can talk something to death in a torrent of minutae, but once I start the ball in motion, it rolls effortlessely. Maybe theres a difference in some indivduals with ADD/ADHD, hmmm.

All this talk about time and doing and stimulation reminded of book written by Ernest Mastria, Psy.D. titled The Habits of Living: A Way To Calm Your Symptoms and to Feel Happy (http://drmastria.com/book.htm) (a practical guide to reduce anxiety and depression, or to simply enjoy life).

It's not written for ADD/ADHD specifically, but I think the principles are adaptable for anyone. His basic premise is that people who suffer from anxiety and depression are not living NOW but are living in an abstract past (from guilt, pain, etc.) or an abstract future that doesn't exist (worry, fear, etc.) Ironically, those of us who have time blindness (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=353206&postcount=37) (to use Dr. Barkley phrase), are also plagued by an abstract fut