It seems there are two entirely different meanings of procrastination:

(1) putting off tasks because we are unwilling, although able, to do them.

(2) putting off tasks because we are unable, although willing, to do them.

Meaning (1) is for cleaning the toilet, painting the house, or some work task that the boss thinks is really a good idea but we think is dumb. Meaning (2) was put to me as “Why do I NOT do things that I want to do, need to do, know I like to do, and know I am good at?” My daughter said “Not doing something because you don’t want to is procrastination. Not doing something because you can’t is ADD.” But it’s only part of ADD.

I suggest we shouldn’t use the same word for both, and am looking for a word for the second meaning.

So – is there a different word for (2)? (If this has been covered in a previous thread please point me there.)

I think it’s important to have and USE a new/different word for a couple of reasons. (A) many normies understand meaning (1), but not meaning (2) and if the same word applies to both, they assume it’s all the same, and that it is a behavioral issue. (I doubt “they” even have a clue how much effort we put into trying to do things that don’t get done -- because we hide it -- because it’s shameful.) (B) Well chosen words define the discussion, and ultimately reality. (C) The word “procrastination” has negative connotations (e.g. laziness) that I personally don’t want to don every time I explain why something is late. Cast off the purple P!!!!

(B) Well chosen words define the discussion, and ultimately reality I smell...I smell...hm, George Lakoff. :p

Excellent post Ursus, and so true. But I got me wondering 1) what else would be call it? and 2) what is the liguistic brakedown (ie root meanings) of the word "procrasination"?

Now I will cease procrastinating and go cut out that coat muslin I was supposed to do last week.

Could you clarify "can't"? I'm not certain if you mean physically, cognitively, or something else and can you provide an example? I also have to address the comment about "normies". I don't ever consider myself or anyone with ADD/ADHD as abnormal. I see it as a difference in function, an alternative process that is no better or worse than any other. I also believe that if we are truly aware that we need to complete a task, then to procrastinate is simply a choice not to complete it in the allotted time.



It seems there are two entirely different meanings of procrastination:

(1) putting off tasks because we are unwilling, although able, to do them.

(2) putting off tasks because we are unable, although willing, to do them.

Meaning (1) is for cleaning the toilet, painting the house, or some work task that the boss thinks is really a good idea but we think is dumb. Meaning (2) was put to me as “Why do I NOT do things that I want to do, need to do, know I like to do, and know I am good at?” My daughter said “Not doing something because you don’t want to is procrastination. Not doing something because you can’t is ADD.” But it’s only part of ADD.

I suggest we shouldn’t use the same word for both, and am looking for a word for the second meaning.

So – is there a different word for (2)? (If this has been covered in a previous thread please point me there.)

I think it’s important to have and USE a new/different word for a couple of reasons. (A) many normies understand meaning (1), but not meaning (2) and if the same word applies to both, they assume it’s all the same, and that it is a behavioral issue. (I doubt “they” even have a clue how much effort we put into trying to do things that don’t get done -- because we hide it -- because it’s shameful.) (B) Well chosen words define the discussion, and ultimately reality (C) The word “procrastination” has negative connotations (e.g. laziness) that I personally don’t want to don every time I explain why something is late. Cast off the purple P!!!!

Lakoff - that was quick. I read the overleaf and bought a book, but haven't read it. My experience goes back to "domino theory" on one side and "military industrial complex" on the other - that's the late '60s.

With issues such as ADHD, the ability to perform a task may change from time to time... we tend to go the path of least resistance, hence living in the moment most of the time. Procrastination in ADHD is related to the increased resistance to overcome when performing a task... that resistance may change with respect to other factors. Is it really dissimilar from driving while extremely tired (to the point of falling asleep at the wheel)? Would we normally state that if one avoids driving while he or she is tired, that that would be procrastination?

I know that that isn't the best analogy as such would involve safety issues (getting into a car accident), but it's interesting nonetheless.

I don't think that separating tasks into "can" and "can't" will work here, as there are many tasks that we can do, but are rather difficult. Possible, but very resistive to completion... that is what we usually are working with... and the difficulty of a task can vary with the time of day. The problem is that boring tasks are often difficult for us.

"Can't" means cognitively. Example: A couple of years ago I had a small bit of writing to do to finish a large project. It got down to being only a handful of sentences which echoed a pattern of similar sentences elsewhere in the project. I'd wake up thinking about them, mentally rough out the words in the shower, rehearse them on my way in to work, then, with fingers over the keyboard, my mind would pop out elsewhere. Local weather, stream drainage patterns, email, chemistry. I'd work feverishly all day, then at the end wouldn't have the sentences done. Day after day, for weeks. I'd even promise myself the rest of the day off if I'd just pound 'em out. In the end it took about 15 minutes to get them down. That was pre-meds. I'm really serious -- I tried everything I could. Ended up blubbering to my therapist that this was severe, and that I was about to just say sc___-it and relapse, that's when the ADD hypothesis came out.

Sorry about the normies comment - should have seen that would offend. Please imagine I meant to say "non-ADDers". I also consider that what I have is only a difference, and that the word "disorder" is uncalled for. ("Deficit" is also off the mark.) In a recent lecture William Dodson was talking about all the words and spent a while explaining why he was going to use the term "normative" for non-ADDers. The fact is that we are about 8.3% of the population (Dodson's preferred number). Using the sense of "normal" that has no value judgment, only statistical meaning (i.e. normal homo sapiens are 1.5 to 2 meters tall) we're not normal. Because the word normal so often comes with value judgments Dodson chose normative to make the point that 11 out of 12 people don't have ADD. And I guess not all ADDers have the issue which is the subject here. Maybe if I had just claimed that "normie" meant normative, not normal I could have skipped some of these words? Then you would have thought I was even sleazier....

And your last sentence - Sometimes panic will get me to the place that I can get things done, maybe that's "truly aware". But what I'm talking about here is not "simply a choice". If it were it would respond to some talk-therapy or training strategy. Can't vs. won't is really the crux.

p.s. I really like your photos. The heron (egret?) dancing on air is great. The gorilla is great. I imagine you have spent quiet, contemplative, time watching birds and waiting. That's great. I won't mention gear-envy.

Procrastination in ADHD is related to the increased resistance to overcome when performing a task... ...yes, and that increased resistance can come from boredom (linked to "executive dysfunction???"). The increased resistance can also come from firehose attention, where attention is like a full-on firehose with nobody holding it -- slapping all over the place and cannot be brought to bear. (Meds, loud music, exercise, drugs&alcohol, depending on the individual, can all help you get hold of the nozzle).

But those increased resistances are all different than the Merriam-Webster definition: "to put off intentionally and habitually".

Perhaps "can't" is too absolute a term. When I'm too tired to drive I know I can take a nap, drink some grapefruit juice, and be good to go in a couple hours. When I'm in a procrastination spot it may be hours, it may be months, or even years before I'll achieve workable focus - and there is no way to predict.

Maybe this is not as widely shared an experience as I thought. That would give me increased confidence that the CBT approach might work.

Maybe, also, people are OK with a fairly broad definition of procrastination - essentially putting things off for any number of reasons, from sloth to ADD to ....... That it is the putting off of things that drives the word usage, not the reason behind putting things off.

"Can't" means cognitively. Example: A couple of years ago I had a small bit of writing to do to finish a large project. It got down to being only a handful of sentences which echoed a pattern of similar sentences elsewhere in the project. I'd wake up thinking about them, mentally rough out the words in the shower, rehearse them on my way in to work, then, with fingers over the keyboard, my mind would pop out elsewhere. Local weather, stream drainage patterns, email, chemistry. I'd work feverishly all day, then at the end wouldn't have the sentences done.
So... do any of these sound close?
Writer's block (mind just won't go there)
Distraction (mind grabs on to anything else that)
Dysgraphia? (It's a learning disability that interferes when you're trying to put the words in your head onto paper. I think. But since I just learned about it yesterday in the learning disabilities section of the forum, don't quote me on that.

Difficulty initiating is an ADD trait. But when you say you worked feverishly, it sounds like you actually were working on the project, as opposed to trying to talk yourself into working on the project. I think there's a big difference there--if you actually found yourself finding all sorts of little things to do to avoid doing it, that might be initiation. But if you actually started, or took breaks and came back, that doesn't sound like it. Sound right?

Any specific areas besides writing that have the same pattern?

Char

Writer's block captures the way this feels like a block against a desired action.
Distraction sounds a bit accidental, like the distraction could be external, rather than inside my own head.
I'll read about dysgraphia.

This isn't just about writing - the same phenomena applies to just about any task you could imagine. The writing was just a single example that buffalo asked for.

And yes, initiation/transition difficulties are a big part of the package - thanks for pointing that out.

But this package is NOT a decision to postpone (for any reason, including distractions). Instead, it's an inability to connect with the task despite one's best intentions and most earnest efforts. A decision to postpone fits the sense of "procrastination" (literally "for tomorrow") whether it's for rational or irrational reasons. This package I'm discussing has nothing to do with putting things off - it's about not getting things done despite serious, dedicated, conscientious effort. For that reason I think this package deserves it's own term to distinguish it from a barely controlled decision to go ride bikes instead.

I thought this experience was common ground among (at least some of) us. Maybe not. Does anyone else recognize this issue?

Thank you for clarifying, I wanted to make certain I understood what you meant. I think you described the essence of procrastination perfectly when you said it is the inability to connect with the task at hand. Its difficult to maintain focus and motivation when we don't feel connected to it in some way. That frustration leads us to seek out tasks that we do have connection to (and thus, interest in) and we maintain that high level of motivation to continue. An even deeper question here is should we find a way to get through such a task, or should we make more choices that would allow us the opportunity to indulge our need to perform tasks that we feel connected to? Entrepeneurs are a good example of people who have chosen a life that has, by choice, a higher likelihood that the tasks they have to perform will have meaning/connection to them. Maybe its about balance then. Even entrepeneurs have to do things that they don't feel passionate about, but having more things that they DO feel passionate about makes the other stuff less difficult. Great thread, love it!



Char

Writer's block captures the way this feels like a block against a desired action.
Distraction sounds a bit accidental, like the distraction could be external, rather than inside my own head.
I'll read about dysgraphia.

This isn't just about writing - the same phenomena applies to just about any task you could imagine. The writing was just a single example that buffalo asked for.

And yes, initiation/transition difficulties are a big part of the package - thanks for pointing that out.

But this package is NOT a decision to postpone (for any reason, including distractions). Instead, it's an inability to connect with the task despite one's best intentions and most earnest efforts. A decision to postpone fits the sense of "procrastination" (literally "for tomorrow") whether it's for rational or irrational reasons. This package I'm discussing has nothing to do with putting things off - it's about not getting things done despite serious, dedicated, conscientious effort. For that reason I think this package deserves it's own term to distinguish it from a barely controlled decision to go ride bikes instead.

I thought this experience was common ground among (at least some of) us. Maybe not. Does anyone else recognize this issue?

Just a quick reminder about guideline (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15842) no political stuff in the post.


The main focus of ADD Forums is to provide a safe supportive place for people affected by AD/HD, and other comorbid disorders. To do this, sometimes we must limit the scope of the permitted topics, to foster such a supportive environment.

* We have had issues arise here that have prevented this from happening - primarily members voicing their opinions about religious and political matters. While everyone is allowed their own opinions, there really is no other way to prevent such issues from "disturbing the peace", except to keep these things completely out of the ADD Forums in the first place.

I completely understand some times we say little things in a jovial manner however when specific political groups are mentioned what is written by one with a joking intent may be taken offensively by other members. Some people are very sensitive about their political persuasions.

I understand no harm was intended however I just thought a little friendly reminder may be in order.

Thanks

***Any concerns or questions regarding this moderator note or staff actions should be private messaged directly to staff, this will prevent further disruption of the discussion. Thank you.***

befuddled - to mean not doing a task because cognitively we are unable.

Thanks! This word has a completely different "mind-feel" than procrastination, but is talking about the same issue.

Procrastination - putting off today, what isn't due until tomorrow.
Tomorrow - wish I had done yesterday what I put off until today.
Panic - Wishing I had started when I first got the assignment, now what do I do?
More Panic - Realizing there is not enough time left to get the assignment done.
Procrastination - delaying telling or handing in what is invariable incomplete or un-done leading to...
More Panic

Vicious circle that I have been living in...causes loss of job, over and over again...and more panic.

NJTrout

Char

Writer's block captures the way this feels like a block against a desired action.
Distraction sounds a bit accidental, like the distraction could be external, rather than inside my own head.
I'll read about dysgraphia.

This isn't just about writing - the same phenomena applies to just about any task you could imagine. The writing was just a single example that buffalo asked for.

And yes, initiation/transition difficulties are a big part of the package - thanks for pointing that out.

But this package is NOT a decision to postpone (for any reason, including distractions). Instead, it's an inability to connect with the task despite one's best intentions and most earnest efforts. A decision to postpone fits the sense of "procrastination" (literally "for tomorrow") whether it's for rational or irrational reasons. This package I'm discussing has nothing to do with putting things off - it's about not getting things done despite serious, dedicated, conscientious effort. For that reason I think this package deserves it's own term to distinguish it from a barely controlled decision to go ride bikes instead.

I thought this experience was common ground among (at least some of) us. Maybe not. Does anyone else recognize this issue?Yes, I recognize it (oh so very well).

The way you describe it as an inability to connect with the task is spot on I think.

Sometimes I mean to, for example, write a mail to someone. Maybe only just start it. When I begin to write though, I get nowhere. I'm just not connected to it. My brain has nothing to contribute to the mail at that moment. So I stop and hope to get back later and feel the connection.

This goes mostly for things that I don't have problems to do per se, it's just the timing needs to be right. There are other things that I procrastinate on in the can't sense of the word cause I find them difficult.

When it comes to distractions they can come both from the inside and the outside. A common inside distraction for me is "Oh, I have to go check that out on the internet!"

The way you feel about the word "procrastination" I've felt about the word "motivation". You know when people asume that if you don't do something you are not motivated and hence you do not want to do it, because if you were motivated you would do it and wouldn't procrastinate.

Do you find this is more of a problem with writing vs. talking. I can converse as an expert on my work, but when it comes to having to put pen to paper or more like brain to paper, that is when the procrastination (writers block?) kicks in. I wonder if this is something in addition to ADD. I also assign this to "boredom". Procrastinate at the task that are "boring".

There have been time in my career when I was the subject matter expert and could write for hours on a subject.

NJTrout

njt - Absolutely. Talking about the subject is way easier than writing the thoughts down. I can do the science, interpret the data, make the diagrams, go to the meeting and stand up and give a good presentation. Afterwards people say "you ought to write that down". I say "yes, I really should, and I want to". And I mean it. But the sentences just don't go together as easily as they did while I was speaking. I get befuddled. (Side note - the best writing I've done has been for other people.....so there may well be other issues that go into the writer's block).

The "procrastination" thought isn't just about writing, though, it is way more general.

njt - Absolutely. Talking about the subject is way easier than writing the thoughts down. I can do the science, interpret the data, make the diagrams, go to the meeting and stand up and give a good presentation. Afterwards people say "you ought to write that down". I say "yes, I really should, and I want to". And I mean it. But the sentences just don't go together as easily as they did while I was speaking. I get befuddled. (Side note - the best writing I've done has been for other people.....so there may well be other issues that go into the writer's block).

The "procrastination" thought isn't just about writing, though, it is way more general.Ursus,

I do agree that procrastination is more than "writers block". It occurs with doing the bills, painting the garage door, cleaning the xxx; you fill in the blank.

Some people translate this to lazy or unmotivated irresponsible.

But aren't these classic ADD symptoms? I let the procrastination snow ball...that's where my problems start...pay the bill late, wait long enough and you won't have to paint the garage door, you'll need to replace it. Hey, the brakes on the car are beginning to squeek. If I go now I'll just need new pads or shoes, but I can wait until the drums and rotors are scored ...why do I do this?

I had 2 months warning to find a new job I waited a month and began....wouldn't any "normal" person have started right away?

Procrastination is so deep a problem with me, Adderall XR helps clear the cobwebs from my thoughts, but can't fix that. To-do list just upset andpanic me because I see so much that I have to do or not done.

But I digress, you were talking about the definition of procrastination...let me know when we get to the part about how to correct and deal with it.

NJTrout

Procrastination is procrastinatoin. I don't think the motive matters a lot.

In college I defined procrastination as: "the art of knowing exactly how long you can put something off".

Me :D

Ok, Ursus, I think I'm clearer on what you're talking about now... except that for you, procrastination means you can start but not connect or finish. For me procrastination means even getting started can be almost impossible---even, as you mentioned, if I know I can do it and I'm good at it.

Anyhow, when I was first learning about ADD I ran across an amazing thread here about what the writer called 'paralysis of the will', too severe and debilitating to be called procrastination in her mind. Check it out and see if it matches what you're talking about:

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=4457.1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-add&lgnF=y

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=4457.1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-add&lgnF=y
What an awesome referral. Folks, the above thread is 6 years, >550 posts, >120,000 words, >275 printed pages of this issue. Thanks charonshanti!

One little bit that struck home was "And what most gets me down, is that much of what I am "just not doing" are things that I WANT TO DO, and ENJOY DOING!!!"

I lay in bed for a bit one morning this weekend watching my brain work this process. I started thinking about what I was going to do, and within a really short time the options that I was considering included two separate woodworking projects, a photography project, an art doodad I want to try, taking the dog for a walk, cleaning a bit, reviewing a journal paper (late), two separate work projects (one late, one short deadline), rolling over and kissing my wife, getting up and making coffee...... Most of the tasks are things I started some time ago, but didn't ever finish. (remember those obnixious rolling popper toys? Push them along and as the wheels rotate a bunch of plastic stuff pops up inside a clear bubble too fast to really see? My brain was like that, but in slower motion and with less noise.).

Any one of the tasks would have been a fine choice. But I couldn't even choose one, much less hold on to it long enough to think about it and plan around it. There was NEVER a sense of "I'll do it later" (=procrastination). I looked for boredom, but couldn't find any (although I suppose it could have been hiding, disguised as something else). And there was no depression, I was enthused about all the possibilities. And none of the tasks felt too complicated or too hard to understand.

I ended up making coffee and spending a lot of time on this forum.

Anyhow, when I was first learning about ADD I ran across an amazing thread here about what the writer called 'paralysis of the will', too severe and debilitating to be called procrastination in her mind. Check it out and see if it matches what you're talking about:

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=4457.1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-add&lgnF=y
Wow, someone wrote my biography, accurately too. I lose sleep because I know the bills need to be paid, but can't start paying them - vicsious cycle.

This is THE HARDEST part of ADD to explain to my wife. So my head is clearer on Adderall XR, but I am still ADD.

Now I can more clearly procrastinate.

NJTrout

Good thread, i completely get what you mean! And i've often tried to think of a way of explaining it without using that word because for many people it implies a CHOICE not to do something. Whereas if i felt i had the choice i very much would do it because it would benefit me...and not doing it causes me problems of whatever type (by "it" i mean anything i'm trying to do but can't)
I like the term paralysis of the will, that sounds so much more like it.
But often even i can see that what i'm saying must sound ridiculous, i mean, i get overwhelmed by the thought of housework. Or i look at it and KNOW it desperately needs to be done....but in my head i just can't think of how to do it, what to do first, etc. Also, i often find that once i anticipate finishing a task it really stresses me out and makes me exhausted...before even moving!
I don't know if this will help anybody else, but i sometimes find that if i have somebody with me it helps, like if i make them my focus and don't think too much about the task i do it easier if it's a mundane boring task. Or just having someone there to tell me what to do when i get flappy .
I have no idea if i'm putting this right or even making my point. But yes, i totally get that it ISN'T a CHOICE i make not to do it....it feels like an INABILITY mentally to focus on doing it.

In college I defined procrastination as: "the art of knowing exactly how long you can put something off".

Speedo I resemble this remark-LOL!

Good thread, i completely get what you mean! And i've often tried to think of a way of explaining it without using that word because for many people it implies a CHOICE not to do something. Whereas if i felt i had the choice i very much would do it because it would benefit me...and not doing it causes me problems of whatever type (by "it" i mean anything i'm trying to do but can't)Great thread. Chloe wrote just what I was thinking when I was reading. I think procrastination more defines the symptom or the effect and there can be many causes. Talking to other people who were procrastinating around me they had lots of advice but it always seemed to me that they were procrastinating because they choose to do something else. I feel like I don't choose I just can't get on with it. I find myself pacing around not remembering why I got up and why I haven't written anything. I also find myself looking up irrelevent stuff on the internet because I have just got to know. I often feel totally frozen and unable to even do a tiny bit of work.

Also, i often find that once i anticipate finishing a task it really stresses me out and makes me exhausted...before even moving!
I recognize this! It's one of those deep down feelings that I haven't really grabbed hold of and hauled out into the light for inspection. Almost like a persistent dream - there, but not in the conscious part of life.

Thanks for the articulation.

.....I wonder why this is?

I absolutely recognize it too.

I have no idea if this is ADD related or not, but as far as "won't" vs. "can't," I go through a thing nearly every single morning when I take a shower that I can't seem to stop myself from doing. Basically I start by plucking my eyebrows and end up examining every inch of my face for like 20 minutes. This little ritual has made me late on more than one occasion. Maybe I have mild OCD or something.. Another thing is with the computer, I have such a hard time breaking away, even when there's something I reaaly need or want to do. In both scenarios I (sometimes verbally) tell myself that it's time to stop RIGHT NOW, but it takes so much effort to break away, usually about 15 minutes at the mirror of struggling to stop, and up to an hour and a half on the computer.

Some tasks,such as making certian financial phone calls, etc. are almost always done at the last minute, if they're done at all because I get so much anxiety thinking about doing it.