A talk I just heard, on one of the Five Hindrances to the mind..

(I think) ADDer problem is Sloth and Torpor???

symptoms:

(syn. to Torpor) Lethargy: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lethargy

Not Having Energy
Though, this low energy is a state of mind. Drained of energy
Dullness-Heaviness
Like Holding Back Your Breath

ADDer uses less energy? Because of sloth and torpor in the mind??

Another description: could be quite pleasant, or not...

Not Pleasant: Feeling of low energy, dullness, heaviness, and like trying hold back your breath.

Somewhat Pleasant: Lethargy--dreamy, day-dream state. Not particularly aware of anything. Cloudy.

ADHD is like Restlessness and Anxiety (Another of the Five Hindrances of mind)

Complementary to Sloth and Torpor. Both, Restlessness & Anxiety, and S & T, are alike. Where RA is, ST either precedes or results, Vversa

Restlessness & Anxiety...can you see how R-A, causes you to dig urself into Sloth & Torpor?

Prevention/Protection
Buddha's Middle Way between Restlessness-Anxiety; and Sloth-Torpor.

eventually, Middle Way between all 5 Hindrances.


More on Sloth-Torpor
also known as: Sinking Mind, mind eventually sinks into it. (real sinking type of experience)

Distinguishment (quite difficult, BTW) Tiredness Between Sloth & Torpor

imagined fantasies stimulate energy level. Likely, experiencing S&T.

(we ARE dealing with our minds, not an easy subject)

CAUSES of S & T

(from Audio Dharma Podcast)
lack of direction
lack of stimulation. Disliking low level of stimulation, so mind is sinking into ST.


(wiktionary definitions of lethargy, syn to torpor)
lethargos "forgetful"

A state of fatigue, sluggishness and inactivity
A state of apathy with lack of emotion or interest
A state of comatose torpor (as found in sleeping sickness)


Well, that's it, from me, right now

Bosi

I really don't feel that this would describe my mind at all.

Lack of stimulation? ADHD for me is more like too much stimulation, everything and anything is capable of catching my attention and drawing it away from important things that I know I need to be able to focus on but can't.

And as for drained of energy...hah...more like too much energy without a useful outlet.

But that's just my subjective impression of how I experience things. Others may very well be different. I just don't really feel like that description matches me overly well.

Hyperion,

Are you ADHD with or without hyperactivity. I'm guessing with capital H?
I bet the above description fits well on a lot of inattentive people.
I've read a few articles where the inattentiveness is seen as a bored mind seeking stimulation in other thoughts, making a low threshold for the mind to wander.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1474811

"It is proposed here that the core problem in the truly inattentive type of ADHD (not simply the subthreshold combined type) is in working memory.
....
Children with the truly inattentive type of ADHD, rather than being distractible, may instead be easily bored, their problem being more in motivation (under-arousal) than in inhibitory control."

"(g) Individuals with ADD have difficulty maintaining a sufficiently high level of motivation to complete a task and grow bored quickly, perhaps tiring because the working memory demands of the task exhaust them. They go looking for something else to do or think about because they are bored, rather than being unable to inhibit the pull of distractions. Their problem is not so much that are distractible as that they are easily bored. When engaged in an activity they enjoy they are fully able to successfully ignore even potent distractions. To remedy a general lower arousal level, they may seek risks that increase their level of arousal and attentiveness."

I agree with Hyperion. This doesn't resonate with me. I'm 180 degrees away - too many interesting things, not too few. (And I'm ADD without the H). And I've spent a lot of time in the past five years digging around inside my head with a therapist. I believe my level of self-awareness to be reasonably high for an ADDer.

Bosi - I take it this resonates with you?

Maybe this illustrates the breadth of different conditions that are lumped under the term AD(H)D.

Maybe this illustrates ...{++}n

THE PERCEIVED ADDER http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23276 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23276)

may be perceived as aloof and arrogant or tiresomely talkative and boorish
compulsive joking, often about personal life history and feelings
pressured rapid-fire speech, seemingly random and aimless hopping from one topic to the next
procrastination - difficulty starting tasks
incompletions - tasks or book reading begun but not finished before new projects or new books are started, leaving a never-ending to-do list
insecurity and self-esteem issues because of unmet high personal expectations
often high achiever, even overachiever, but with poor self-image because of beliefs that more could be accomplished if not for disorganization
On the forums, from what I see

Logically, one cannot go against what meds do for our overall psyche. The mind and body and interdependent of one another. Mind is not going to function w/o proper supply of dopamine, vitamins and minerals, or serotonin in the brain. I see a greater problem----one that lies on the other side of the above problems (in bullets). Physical deprivations are the root cause of some mental dementia/suffering. Is the same not so, that mental deprivation are at root of physical dementia/suffering?

I, here emphasizing the mental side of the dementia we possess. Fundamentally, overall psyche is affected by the mental and physical aspect. To rid of dementia, one needs a mind functioning at an adequate level. . . On another level: There is suffering w/in the mind itself.

I, here emphasizing the mental side of the dementia we possess.

I am only guessing here but you must be using the word dementia for another meaning than I am accustom to understanding it. . . dementia for me is associated with progressive changes in cognitive functioning there is an onset of symptoms which are chronic and progressive. I associate the term dementia with disease progresses like in Alzheimer's. ADD is not Alzheimer's!

A clarification of the term dementia as you define it may be useful in helping me better understand your perspective.



CAUSES of S & T

(from Audio Dharma Podcast)
lack of direction
lack of stimulation. Disliking low level of stimulation, so mind is sinking into ST.

The part of this I agree with so far!


Lack of stimulation? ADHD for me is more like too much stimulation, everything and anything is capable of catching my attention and drawing it away from important things that I know I need to be able to focus on but can't.

And as for drained of energy...hah...more like too much energy without a useful outlet.

But that's just my subjective impression of how I experience things. Others may very well be different. I just don't really feel like that description matches me overly well.

Hyperion I do not believe I have ever agreed with you more. My ADHD doesn’t feel like the description in the initial post except I do lack direction as I scatter easily and boredom sucks.




Children with the truly inattentive type of ADHD, rather than being distractible, may instead be easily bored, their problem being more in motivation (under-arousal) than in inhibitory control."

Hmmm been through the inhibitory thing but in the hyperactive mind the distractions ( all of 10,000 of them) are the stimulation . .often physical activity decreases my distractability and allows me to concentrate better . . . my mind wanders my physical activity is a coping mechanism for the filtering problem not the cause of it. . .Before medications I often stood up to do paper work because I could focus on it more effectively. I remembering being a hyper active child I had the ability to stop moving at will just like every one else it simply hurt physically to do so(unlike every one else). When my mind does wander off it takes my body along for the ride. . . . .in my opinion barrowed from "Fidget to Focus" ADD brain is underarousal seeks arousal period

I have a “poor working memory” because my mind is taking in every thing at once instead of filtering out the unimportant crap so I can place my focus where it needs to be. The important stuff like directions gets lost or diluted because it is taken in with the sound of the ceiling fan, the cars going down the road, other people’s movements, the temperature of the room the feeling of the tag I forgot to remove from my shirt, the feeling of a fly landing on my head. . . . . . :eyebrow:


Wiggling helps relieve the feeling of being assaulted by my senses. . . like letting out the built up energy caused by processing every little sound, visual image, thought and feeling bombarding my brain.Hyperactivity is the physical release for me that prevents the mental shut down (or melt down) . . . . . .when I want to really think some thing through I either take a ride on a highway or do some heavy lifting if I am angry to the point of physical violence nothing short of running will do. . . heavy lifting leads to heavy object throwing. . . . I go for the run less damaging less dangerous than motor vehicles!


Their problem is not so much that are distractible as that they are easily bore

Perhaps the difference is the inattentive is distracted by his own internal world where the more hyper active person is distracted by the external one. Those who are inattentive are unable to filter through their inner environment as we who are hyperactive are unable to filter out the external one, with combined types being distracted by a little of both!

ADD = B.A boredom aversion ---> underarousal seeks arousal <---

ADD = B.A boredom aversion ---> underarousal seeks arousal <---arousal == stimulation == neurotransmission == thought {and lots and lots and lots and lots of it)
:-)

Perhaps the difference is the inattentive is distracted by his own internal world where the more hyper active person is distracted by the external one. Those who are inattentive are unable to filter through their inner environment as we who are hyperactive are unable to filter out the external one, with combined types being distracted by a little of both!hmmm...

... the general notion of a switch away from ad~H~d towards combined type and inattentive type with age.
Does that observation help this idea any?

I appear to switch dependent on task.
Tasks involving deep thought switch me out of the desire to move.
Light-weight mental tasks - taken on with physical motion.

Thinking reusable components and evolution.
Physical motion pulled along for the ride as the thinky bit of our brain [mind] thunks.
Kinda' like allergy being pulled along on the coat-tails of histamine as neurotransmitter.

Also thinking cogs of mind turn only when a threshold of mental stimulation is reached - motion tipping the balance in favour of mental tasks which don't require much 'mental.'


Bit of ?both?

What's the special?

:-)

Ursus,

Just a theory:
Actually I think that's a logical next step after hard/boring work (for the inattentive brain) => understimulation/bored => other thoughts => the brain seeks out things for stimulation => a LOT of interesting things get done/thought over for stimulation of the brain.
A lot of different projects gets started, that at the very beginning was stimulating the brain. But as with all new projects, the interest falters as time goes by, and it might never get finished.

So the "objective" first priorities, the work that's important and needs to get done now, get put aside. The brain keeps repelling the posibility to focus, because stimulation is too low. Therefore you logically end up doing something that stimulates your brain, because you'd like to get something done (almost no matter what), to keep your brain "occupied"/stimulated/not bored.

... to keep your brain "occupied"/stimulated/not bored ... exactiperfectitotallimundo-licious.
That's the bit that matters.
The reason why it's true
kinda' rocks the casbah too
:-)

I don't think I'd put "mental deprivation" on a list of things that ADDers deal with...I don't know about anyone else, but if I ever felt mentally deprived as a child, I had a fairly hyperactive imagination that more than made up for it (and I don't think that I was very mentally deprived growing up, we had so many books that we ran out of room on all our bookshelves and started storing them in boxed and closets).]

I do think that a certain amount of psychological angst does often show up as a secondary issue, as a result of ADHD symptoms and the effects that they might have on someone's life. I can also see how ADHD might deprive someone of certain facets of their education if it interferes with the learning process...but I don't know that I'd look at ADHD as being inherently psychological in nature. The symptoms are too pervasive and tend to cluster around specific functional neural processes rather than the outward behavior (ie hyperactivity, inattention, poor impulse control, disorganization, etc can be traced back to a common set of functions related to impulse inhibition and a few other executive functions; on the other hand, processes that seem similar in outward behavior, like working memory and long-term memory, are not affected the same way, where ADDers tend to have poor working memory but perfectly fine long-term memory).

But yeah, it's certainly worth exploring the psychological turmoil that ADHD can cause, and I do feel as though that area tends to be overlooked a lot, but I wouldn't go chasing after psychological causes for the disorder, plenty of people have gone barking up that tree and nothing's come down yet.

It's kinda' clear that all of this thinkthunky stuff that we do - was conferred on us by some process.
So the mind came along - but not a manmade mind -
- mind arose on the back of some natural process.

Bosi's intro - (somewhat) pinpointed (nearly) exactly (almost) perfectly
... I'll stop now ... :-)

... is it such a jump to take a good long look at the human brain - to see how it differs from previous evolutionary structures of brain - and to attribute (at least mind - but ADD too) - to some characteristic which is harboured within the brain.
{wait there's more}

Noting that the brain's development has been in a direction - and that direction has given us mind.

{->- more ->-}
But - that that direction was more about the neuronal cell mass - than it was ever about us - {us being the I in I'm going out} - and that the perspective through our eyes is *incorrect* - that we are the byproduct (or rather our mind -or- thinking capacity -or- conscious awareness) - is a byproduct of the 'real' process - the process of evolution of a neuronal culture (kinda' similar semantics to bacterial cell culture) ... towards complexity of structural form.

Kinda' think carbon->-graphite->-diamond->-Fullerene-buckminster 'bukyball' ... Carbon allotropes ...

- Once again -
... that the neurones aggregate in a particular orientation - driven by evolution towards a more complex 'crystal' structure - {to tie in with carbon {above}} - though perhaps 'structure' {alone} is easier to take on board in context of brain [mind]...
... and that the consequence of increasing complexity of structure -
- are the byproducts of ...

... everything which follows...
"I ..."

... you think it ->- Norman neurone and his friends get their workout.

~changes to~

- Norman neurone and his friends WANT their workout ->- you think it

I don't think I'd put "mental deprivation" on a list of things that ADDers deal with...I don't know about anyone else, but if I ever felt mentally deprived as a child, I had a fairly hyperactive imagination that more than made up for it (and I don't think that I was very mentally deprived growing up, we had so many books that we ran out of room on all our bookshelves and started storing them in boxed and closets).Me too exactly!
But I've also had chronic depression since I was born, and when it gets hold of me the slothfulness seems to take over the body, even while the mind is whirling, often in circles.
The depression is better now, btw, with meds and therapy.

... So the mind came along - but not a manmade mind -
- mind arose on the back of some natural process.
...
Noting that the brain's development has been in a direction - and that direction has given us mind.
...
But - that that direction was more about the
neuronal cell mass - than it was ever about us - {us being the I in I'm going out} - and that the perspective through our eyes is *incorrect* - that we are the byproduct (or rather our mind -or- thinking capacity -or- conscious awareness) - is a byproduct of the 'real' process - the process of evolution of a neuronal culture ... towards complexity of structural form.... Well put. So with ADD and ADHD, the chemistry is a little stronger of a solution, perhaps?

... :-) ...
Stabile described the process leading to ADD as being (paraphrased) - a (A) small (LITTLE) shift (STRONGER) in the neurochemical (CHEMISTRY) equilibrium within the brain (SOLUTION) ...
- so - I guess ~yes~
... :-) ...

Sorry for the long response time life been kickin my buttttt! Ouch!


the general notion of a switch away from ad~H~d towards combined type and inattentive type with age.
Does that observation help this idea any?

Correct (who set the damn font on this thing-oh I did)

Not only with my maturity have I slow some what but when I spent a good portion of the summer to ill to move about. Despite the slowing of my body my mind still went 100 mph, in fact the less physical activity I did the more that activity seemed to go inward. . . . physical activity seems to ease the hyper mind too much physical activity my ease the hyper mind however it can annoy and distract the non-hyper mind.

When unable to engage in hours of physical activity I found my self engaging in hours of research of every thing from executive functions to fungi. . . I needed to wiggle about but I was too sick to bounce about but my brain seemed to increase in the bouncing as my body decreased. . . if left unmedicated my brain will bounce around subject like my body used to bounce around rooms. . . .now in a recovery mode I feel kind of stuck between the two. I am not up to full steam yet but I am better than I was a few months ago. . . . on less pills too thank God!


The symptoms are too pervasive and tend to cluster around specific functional neural processes rather than the outward behavior (ie hyperactivity, inattention, poor impulse control, disorganization, etc can be traced back to a common set of functions related to impulse inhibition and a few other executive functions;

impulse inhibition - - - -

Man not inhibition . . . Hyperion you are such a cool guy, I respect you as a person very highly but surly you know I can not possible agree with this. . .impulse thing.

I do not nor have I ever lacked inhibition in the sense so often used in science. . . I could very well be mis-reading the context here as I just got slammed at work so I am pretty bushed.

I could sit but it physically hurt.

If I lit a fire under the posterior aspect of any non-ADDer they would move a lot tooo. . . same principal applies. Universal laws apply universally . . .

There was no lack in ability to over ride the desire to move which is how I read science . . . I understand that “lack of inhibition means that I wiggled because my brain could not tell my body to stop moving . . . which is total hoarse hockey.


When science explains the pain I felt by sitting still, and begins to talk about the movement being a means of the brain using the movement as a compensatory behavior then I may buy the theory behind it. To tell me I moved because I forgot to tell my body to stop or I had some impulse to move and simply could not refrain due to lack of EF is manure . . I hurt physically literally when I made my self sit still. Pain is like an alarm that lets us know some thing needs to be done differently . . . moving was different and it stopped the pain I remember when school let out the physical relief was tremendous. . . I am talking years of memories. .

IN the 70’s I learned how to treat my ADHD before the medical profession even knew ADD existed past puberty . . . so disagree in the name of science tis cool with me as I am used to it. Had I been stupid enough to reveal my actions in the 70’s I would have been labeled a drug addict because that is what main stream medical science would have considered me based on their knowledge and research. Time has proven my actions to be the correct way one treats ADHD. IN other wards I knew how to treat my ADHD before medical science even knew it existed . . . I knew by the time I was seven years old the reason other people didn’t move around like I did was because it didn’t hurt them to be still. I remembered this epiphany very clearly.

Okay thanks for letting me get my two cent in here. . . I understand and accept many disagree with me like I said tis cool I am used to this and do not take it personally.

Tammy the {spam-pyre (... slayer)}
... :-) ...

...many disagree... ... is it OK if I agree?
... specifically to the bits at the start, end - and the intervening passage between the aforementioned couple.

:-)

is it OK if I agree?

Some agreement is nice tooooooo! I am happy I am not alone.

I have just come to accept the way I see ADD I have found my view isn't the same as medical science. . . I have come to accept that many others do follow the teachings of main stream. Through hours of debates I have learned disagreement doesn’t have to be taken personally, another’s perspective rarely has any thing to do with me any way.


I have come to the point of acceptance of my own views I am neither angered by their perspectives nor am I intimidated those who see things differently. I have been allowed to say openly how I feel and should not become angered when others do the same.

I have also learned any thing and every thing posted regarding ADD causes, origins ect. . is subject to debate. . . disagreement, and questioning. Things are as they should be. . .if I can not handle diversity of perspectives or a challenge then I have no confidence in my own point of view.


Success of a community or a society isn't determined by the similarity of it's members but by the ability of those members to learn how to benefit from each others diversity.

The portion we often have trouble with isn’t the diversity of opinion itself but how it is often handled.

I don’t think medical science is entirely wrong I really believe they are seeing what they say they do it is the interpretation aspect and their approach I disagree with. . I do not see ADHD as Hyperion does but do find it interesting that despite our difference of perspective we seem to experience our ADHD in much the same way . . . . I do not experience my ADHD the way Bosi describes his but have no reason to be upset by this. . I find it increases the fascination because despite our differences of experiences my perspective is closer to his. . . I find these things fascinating, some thing worthy of exploration not exasperation. . .

ADD experience:

I'm unmedicated, as I always find some way to scare myself away from them! Like contracting the stomach flu upon my first doses! Or anything, like I wish my deliberation didn't have to ruin my expectations all the time. (I felt better, though, I realize, than stomach flu non-medicated). I'm off now, no sleep the first two nights on adderall xr. BUT, I still felt functional come morning, and again the next morning without sleep. Some Pepto-Bismal, I realize would have been SO NICE! Might still have amphetamine on me brain.

When can we ever be sure they work? I have Leonardo's gene. If ADD exists, I do have it.

Is ADD, mainly physical dementia? It is a cause of, not really the mind, (as if it were seperate from the brain, which it isn't) but the physical brain dilemma? WAIT, doesn't Adderall affect the entire body-which is the mind, which is unseperable from the body!

I remember listening to Daniel Dennett, on "Kinds of Minds." Our body is our mind, different from what we call, "animal minds." PHYsical, PHYche difference. All together now: Both "non-homosapien" and homosapien all are MINDS.

non-medicated ADDer means trouble with 5 Hindrances of the mind. Subtle troubles, though are not mortal dangerous, just quality endangering.

Traditionally, the Japanese have a brilliant way of wearing clothing and moving, while going with the nature of the cloth.

I'm too far off topic to remember how this is relevant, but that's me