Hey all. I originally posted the below comments in response to another thread. Initially, I did not realize that thread was in the Non-ADDer support area, where I'm not sure if I was welcome. At any rate, it really got me thinking about the importance of distinguishing between definitive ADD traits and learned behaviors from general aspects of the person. For example, I have read that ADD people may be either intelligent and creative or dumb-as-bricks and dull (or intelligent and dull, or dumb and creative). So these things may not be at all related to ADD.

It is important for me to make that distinction so that I can have and recognize my life as a big, wholistic thing with ADD being one small aspect to cope with. The alternative view is that I *am* ADD, and everything about me stems from that and any other co-morbidity that would make me the interesting and/or disfunctional person I am. Because then, even the good things, the loveable things, and the corny and wacky things that make us all unique somehow end up getting labled ADD. And that sucks. It hurts. That view sucks away the credit I could otherwise draw for myself as esteem and self-love. It creates the impression that people love that spontineity or off-the-wall humor or passionate intensity as ADD traits. "Oh, I just love my ADD boy sometimes...when he's not being a bad ADD boy." I--my self, my person--don't get the credit for anything good or bad. It's all just ADD. Right?

Wrong! So here's what I posted--you don't have to read it, because I've essentially said my peace above, but I include it as a reference. The original string was "What ADD qualities do you love?" and I ask the deeper basic questions, "How do you define an ADD quality from a general personal quality, and since ADD is a disability by definition, how can ADD qualities be loveable at all?" It is akin to asking, "What qualities of blindness or mobility impairment do you love?"

-Fluvial

....
So ... love is such a tough thing to pin down, and it's just as difficult sometimes to separate love of particular trait or behaviors as it is love of the entire person. One would think that the greater love is the latter--the more abstract but wholistic. But this string was clearly created to answer the former--love of particular traits.

So I ask (to everyone who may read this), how does one even tell if a trait is an ADD trait or if it is just an aspect of the person. I hear people talk about spontineity, creativity, intelligence, humor, and intensity as love-worthy traits derived from ADD. Hmmm. I'm not so sure. Spontineity and intensity for sure--that's almost by definition (yes, spontineity = impulsivity as someone else mentioned). But ADD people can be boring due to associated OCD or low in intelligence due to related learning disabilities. As for humor, my intelligence just feeds my cynicism and depression, and any of my jokes that people can follow are either self-depricating or cynical. And we all know that spontineity and intensity cut both ways--the longer the marriage, the more they cut negatively. That's what I'm hearing from people, at least.

So to [not] answer the question, I don't think someone can pin certain traits as loveable ADD traits, because if it's truly a definitive ADD trait, then it is a "D"=disability, not some subjectively "differently abled" trait. And if it's not a definitive ADD trait, then how can one say it's generated by ADD (e.g., intelligence, creativity)?? I guess I have to believe this so that I can feel that when my wife says that she loves this or that about me that those are MY traits--I'm not sharing that love with some fr$%kin' ADD lable. If I have intelligence or creativity, it's *me* dammit! :cool:

(The fact that this rambles all over the place may be proof positive of my lack of executive mental functioning--and that's not a loveable trait--it's a disability. And yes, as you mention, I will try to "grab this thing." I guess that's why I'm here.)

[Not] the END.

Well said. I would link it say "what do you love about an alcoholic?" Gee, I love that he/she falls asleep soundly every evening.

You are a combination of everything in your life. You ADD/ADHD is a part of who you are, and your traits. I think if you try and seperate them by saying well, I do this and it is me, or I do this and it is the ADD then things get confusing. I believe they are all tied into each other. You are what you are. And if people want to go picking out specific traits and debating on whether it is a trait of the person, or a trait of the ADD/ADHD, then I'll leave them by the wasteside.

Oh, well that link was simple enough. Just a copy and paste from the address bar. Duuhhhh! :P

Oh, well that link was simple enough. Just a copy and paste from the address bar. Duuhhhh! :P
Gee thanks! I have no idea how to change the wording on it to say "treatment plan" or "current meds/issues." I am blonde.......

Fluvial,
Don't disregard what msam has to say..

There are tons of references on this board, that could help you..msam was just pointing you to one of them, graciously, too.

Trying to seperate ADD from yourself..is like trying to seperate your 'height' from you..they're 'interlinked' to 'all' of you..but in the end, you're really not going to be able to clearly distinguish who 'you' are without 'all' of you..

The above statement, about 'you and your height' was a metaphor, by the way..don't take it literally. (0:

Hey all. I originally posted the below comments in response to another thread. Initially, I did not realize that thread was in the Non-ADDer support area, where I'm not sure if I was welcome.

Yea neither am I which is why I don’t go over there. . . haven’t darked their door way in over a year.




At any rate, it really got me thinking about the importance of distinguishing between definitive ADD traits and learned behaviors from general aspects of the person.

Huh?

Man if I could do all that sorting and separating I wouldn’t be ADHD. . Please do understand your view isn’t wrong, it is right . . right for you however it isn’t for me.

There are others who do see their ADD as a separate entity . . . like it is a part of them but isn’t them . . . I will be straight up man I am a global thinker and for me every thing is connected to every thing else.

Trying to separate me from my ADHD would be like trying to separate me from being a girl . . I was born both I do not know what it is like to be any other way. . where would female end or I begin?




For example, I have read that ADD people may be either intelligent and creative or dumb-as-bricks and dull (or intelligent and dull, or dumb and creative). So these things may not be at all related to ADD.

I have read stuff like this before. Yea there are others who see things this way My impression is the ADD is blamed for all the bad stuff but has nothing to do with the good. . again I am global . . . it is okay if you aren’t. . . for me being a non-linear thinker means I am late for every thing but the same tendency also allows me to see out side the box. . .I can make connections that seem unrelated but work.

ADHD traits have both good points and bad. . . in my world.


My files resemble piles because it is all paper work ?

Me or my ADD?

My friends are yellow black and white I only know they are fun?

Me or my ADD?




It is important for me to make that distinction so that I can have and recognize my life as a big, wholistic thing with ADD being one small aspect to cope with. The alternative view is that I *am* ADD, and everything about me stems from that and any other co-morbidity that would make me the interesting and/or dysfunctional person I am. Because then, even the good things, the loveable things, and the corny and wacky things that make us all unique somehow end up getting labeled ADD.

I wish I could relate to you better but I simple do not understand. It isn’t like ADD is a mouse I carry in my pocket., it isn’t my alter ego it isn’t localized in my left toe. . . people relate to me the person ADHD and all . . . wearing my pants me being me. . . I was probably running late again. . .this is the same me with ADHD who can figure out what is wrong with your car, I can southern engineer that machine back together even though I have never seen one before. . . is so which is me and what is my ADD . . . . all are me . .being ADHD has it’s good points and it’s really suckie ones. . . but I am responsible for them all. . .




And that sucks. It hurts. That view sucks away the credit I could otherwise draw for myself as esteem and self-love.

Perhaps maybe some of the more main stream scientific members would do better here. . .they tend to see their ADD as an impairment and are able to see their ADD as separate from their being . . . ADD is simply a diversity for me. . . I do not wish to cause you pain. All I can do is assure you that you are not alone in this style of belief. . there are many others and I think they may be more helpful.




It creates the impression that people love that spontaneity or off-the-wall humor or passionate intensity as ADD traits.

No matter what traits they like or dislike, no matter what is me or what is my ADD they all come with the same being meadd823. . .

I apologize I can not help you make these distinctions It isn’t about right vs. wrong but the inability to separate myself from my ADHD This is simply a difference in perception, You see things in a manner that is correct for you and I see in a way that is right for me. Nothing more.

Meadd,
Thanks for your thoughts. If nothing else, I am learning a lot here about how ADD-affected people view themselves. I've always cringed at the statement "every opinion is as valid as the next" for philosophical reasons, which I won't go into here, but I'd say something like that. In the end, I suppose we can agree to disagree, and for me, that clearly puts me outside the majority here.
I will say something about my poor choice of the word "separate" in a parallel thread here, because people seem to be fixating on that word instead of the overall idea--frustration--I'm trying to communicate. And that's my fault.
-F

Fluvial Shell~ I am very interested in what you have to say. But I guess I am not quite getting it. Please explain more. I am not trying to disagree with you. Maybe put another way, I would see your point more and end up agreeing.

I might be regretting using the word "separate"--perhaps the whole concept of "separating" or distinguishing" distracts from what I'm really trying to communicate. Obviously the two viewpoints--you're all ADD vs. a complex assemblage of traits--is a false dichotomy, and I hate it when I set one of those up, because we end up in frustrating arguments about the fictitious dichotomy.

Let me be clear that I understand that complex interactions of personality traits interact within ourselves, as they interact with the society outside ourselves. ADD has certainly affected my behaviors, because I've learned poor coping, habits, and work-arounds due to it. But what I resent is when people don't stop with the connections. Once they're thinking about how ADD affects, they see it everywhere in their lives, and they'll never stop drawing those connections. Well, maybe the connections aren't everywhere. That's all I'm saying. Can we really make the distinctions in the end? Perhaps not...that's what I hear people saying--that no, we can't make those distinctions between "this is due to ADD but this is due to something else or just me."

But I will say this--even though I fear it will alienate me from a majority of people here--I strongly believe that people can go too far in identifying themselves as ADD. Do you understand the difference between identifying self and identifying traits. It's the difference between saying that I'm "Fluvial" and that I'm a professional scientist. There's a difference there, because when the day's over and I'm at the theater with my partner watching James Bond, I'm not a scientist. Not then. That hat has been removed. And certainly when I'm making love, playing an online game, or I'm not a scientist. Maybe that's a poor example, but it's like saying that I am my hand or my foot or that I am an asthmatic. If I wrap myself up in those identities, I can loose track that I am a much bigger assemblage of stuff. That complex assemblage. I think everyone agrees with that, but they don't get that they're stamping that whole big complex assemblage as ADD. Not everyone, but clearly a lot of people.

So I see two main issues at stake with the two (yes, falsely dichotomous) viewpoints. First is the way that we treat ourselves--self esteem and a full, complex picture of ourselves as we really are. Creativity and "thinking outside the box" seem to be the common positives directly attributed to ADD. Not only does it discredit non-ADD-affected people who are creative, out-of-the-box thinkers, and but it prevents us from seeing other sources--nature or nurture--as the root of significant problems. Just for a second, think about the best thing you did in the last month--something that made you feel proud and happy. Now imagine that it is because you have ADD--otherwise you could not have done it. Now scratch that, and imagine that that thing was done in spite of the fact that you have ADD, and that it came from something deep within you, something essential and personal--your very essense. Now I ask you, which feels better?

If you answered the former, I understand the temptation to link those positives to ADD, because lets face it, no one wants to think of themselves as disabled. I think that's the heart of it. But I don't agree with it. We are disabled. We cannot perform some vital mental control functions that most people take for granted. And those functions can be vital because lacking them can break relationships, careers, educations, and even lives, when important details are missed. (I almost ran over a pedestrian yesterday because my mind was going to town in la-la land.) That is a disability, not a "different" ability.

Secondly, it creates an "Us versus Them" social rift, and that's not good for anyone. We all want to feel part of a group, but are we really SO different from non-ADD-affected people? I read an article recently about appropriate careers, and the conclusion was that you can't point to one or two types of careers or job-aspects, because we're all different. We're unique--with or without ADD. So stamping a label, which is good for disability accomodation purposes,
With regard to this, simply imagine the discrimination of people who are of different color, or hearing impaired, or female, or male (I can relate to that being in a female-dominated career). It's like saying that Jack is good at sports because he's black. The "black" becomes an all-encompasing label, overwhelming the "complex assemblage." And it becomes devisive. Instead of looking at Jill and saying, hmm, she's exceptionally quick-witted, we'd say, "gee, isn't it interesting how she's so quick witted AND hearing impaired." If you actually said these things in public, you'd be slapped...by someone. And rightfully so. The person is so much more than a label.

So I think people may go way overboard in identifying their very selves as ADD and then drawing lines from that disability to other traits, until their entire self-view is a mass of lines hanging from the ADD nexus. But is that really who they are? Is that who you are? Is that who I am?

So, this thread has been awesome for me, because it's really helped me sort out my thoughts on the matter. I've worked with counselors a lot on dinstinguishing parts of my life with my capital *S*E*L*F*--the big complex assemblage, mostly as a technique to deal with debilitating depression. And it's major dissonance to here people imply that it's wrong. So I hearby resolve to use the terms ADD-affected and non-ADD-affected. And maybe that's what some people mean when they say ADD-er or non-ADD-er, and I'm ok with that. I woudn't try to re-write the vocabulary. But *I* will think of myself as ADD-affected, and go on and live my full, rich complex life of science, racquetball, sex, pets, depression, hiking & canoeing, music, and intellectual conversation, because I can't say for sure that ADD has anything to do with those things!

Just for a second, think about the best thing you did in the last month--something that made you feel proud and happy. Now imagine that it is because you have ADD--otherwise you could not have done it. Now scratch that, and imagine that that thing was done in spite of the fact that you have ADD, and that it came from something deep within you, something essential and personal--your very essense. Now I ask you, which feels better?

Ok now you hit home. The blonde's light went off. I thought of something I did. I'll tell you the story. A 27 y.o. female who is on my caseload has mild mental retardation. She has been abused all her life, sexually molested by her father, raped by a "friend", got pregnant, had a son, children and youth took the baby away from her. She has every right to be angry and upset. But she is not. She is a very caring and giving individual. Two days before Thanksgiving I found out that her family did not want her at their meal. Now, mind you, she lives next door to her mother with her mothers best friend. As soon as I heard this, I called around and a family said they would be more than willing to have her join them for Thanksgiving. So, there I was, on Thanksgiving with my own meal to cook for the family, picking up my patient at 8am and taking her to the other families home so she could have a nice Thanksgiving dinner.

That has nothing to do with my ADHD, or anxiety, or depression, or whatever other label placed on me. That was from the inside. I beleive I am a PERSON with ADHD. I don't say I am ADHD. Because I am not. ADHD is a part of me, I am not just a part of ADHD.

I am glad you were able to reslove some things. I would not worry about what majority thinks, this is a place for you to speak your mind and what you believe to be the truth. We will all differ and come into conflict at some point in time. But if we all had the same views, this would really be a boring board with little activity. Thank you for the conversation!

...And thank you for hearing me and giving me some specific feedback showing that you understand. Click...connection. Frickin' ADD communication gaps...I'm terrible about expressing my thoughts directly, jumping to conclusions, and finishing other's sentences instead of finishing my own sentences. And I believe those disfunctions can be ascribed to ADD, at least in part.

Bless you. That is a wonderful story, and you should feel pretty darn good. Hell, I feel good just knowing people like you are out there.

It's the difference between saying that I'm "Fluvial" and that I'm a professional scientist

You are not in a minority here just a minority at this time. Others who are members here see and say the same things you do. . some times they are the majority and it is we who do not hold to main stream disordered ADD idealism who are a minority, just at present it the opposite seems to be true . Wait five minute this will change . . . majority perception styles are some thing that seems to go in cycles.



Not only does it discredit non-ADD-affected people who are creative, out-of-the-box thinkers, and but it prevents us from seeing other sources--nature or nurture--as the root of significant problems

Hmmm research scientist?? Work in lab??? Or class room???? University. . . research facility???? . . .just a curiosity. . . . calculating odds. . . . How good of a guesser am I? See ya sound like one. . . . there are a couple of research scientist that are members here. . . so if I am close this would mean you are not alone. . . .



If you answered the former, I understand the temptation to link those positives to ADD, because lets face it, no one wants to think of themselves as disabled. I think that's the heart of it. But I don't agree with it. We are disabled. We cannot perform some vital mental control functions that most people take for granted. And those functions can be vital because lacking them can break relationships, careers, educations, and even lives, when important details are missed. (I almost ran over a pedestrian yesterday because my mind was going to town in la-la land.) That is a disability, not a "different" ability.

I have been here done this before . . . . . .RA at present so here is the abridged version. . . it is almost my bed time.

Blaming broken relationships on ADHD and saying the fact you almost ran over a pedestrian because you have ADD and were in lal al land while denying all possibilities of ADD traits having any positive values is not only illogical and impractical it is blaming. . . . it is blaming a condition for poor performance . . . traits are just that traits; they are neither good or bad they simply exist . . . . it is how the traits are expressed in the individual that makes the good vs. bad thing.

I contribute all of me to being me I do not blame ADHD from all my faults, quirks or stupid mistakes because it does no good . . . It doesn’t really matter if I am fifteen minutes late to every thing because I have ADD. . . any more than it really matters not if I am creative because I have ADD. . . bottom line I am responsible for both behaviors. . . .this would be the case apart from ADHD. . . I have known about my ADHD for a long time now and have gotten over the need to pick the white specs out of pepper.



So I see two main issues at stake with the two (yes, falsely dichotomous) viewpoint.

Well it does provide some thing for people to discuss. . . .


Secondly, it creates an "Us versus Them" social rift, and that's not good for anyone.

Sub-grouping and differences of opinion seem to occur due to the variety of our membership. Debating is a natural result when two opposing perspectives meet on the same thread. . . . this can be stimulating for some and anxiety provoking for others. . . . in all honesty I lean toward the former (in reading your initial post and this one I would venture to say you fall into this category also- tone and word choices) . . . a few more exchanges and we will get a list of all regular members who also find conflicting perspectives stimulating. . . (side note - A quick look at my former post will illuminate the fact I am telling you how I really feel and am not just posting this to generate conflict.)

Despite my disagreement with much of your point of view the fact that you are different does make you interesting the fact you see things one way and I see them another makes it even more so. . . this as a not a bad thing as long as all involved show proper respect for the other person. . . besides if every one thought like me the world would be a very boring place to live . . .if I can’t handle a challenge to my perspective then I have little faith in my own views. . .



If I wrap myself up in those identities, I can loose track that I am a much bigger assemblage of stuff. That complex assemblage. I think everyone agrees with that, but they don't get that they're stamping that whole big complex assemblage as ADD. Not everyone, but clearly a lot of people.

I will more than likely always see myself as being ADHD just like I will always see my self as being female. . . . ADHD is as much of a part of me as my gender. . . when I am at a movie I am still female, when I make love I am still ADHD. . .no matter how hard I try I simple can’t leave home without it.

Thanks again Meadd, (or Tammy?...I don't know how to address you)

Thank you for responding, as this thread seems to have died otherwise. And I'm sure this topic has been reincarnated in several different forms, so I can see how it would be a yawner as a repeat.

To answer your question, I'm currently a research assistant in a university engineering department, while trying (painfully) to get a Masters of Engineering degree. I got my bachelors in geology and worked for a few years in a federal science agency doing water resources science. That sucked, and I constantly wanted to go out and do field work instead of squirming in front of my computer picking through endless datasets, models, and buerocratic bullcrap. I decided that I needed a more concrete do-design-go sort of job instead of the stare-and-interpret-data sort of job. Though I'm awesome at interpreting data and understanding abstract concepts, once I "get it" and see it a few times, my interest tends not to stick around--moving on. So I'm trying to get more of an engineering career without sacrificing my former work experience. It's a tough transition, and going back to grad school when you're 34 and the other students average 24 is an excercise in humility. I don't care what anyone else says, those ten years make a huge difference for me.

So I'll address the dichotomy by restating the grand cliche: "In science, you've got Lumpers, and you've got Splitters." It seems that where ever you are, intellectual pursuits always require classification and definition to some degree, and people tend to fall all over this wide spectrum. As in politics, the great majority are actually in the "reasonable" middle, but it's always the extreme splitters or extreme lumpers that draw attention to the "conflict." (Do you know what I mean by lumpers and splitters? You can look at a large set of characteristics, parts, organisms, people...whatever and say that splitting the parts up misses the bigger picture or say that failing to systematically classify the parts fails to see important details. That's "lumping" or "splitting.")

I just don't want other people to lump me. It's ok if I lump myself as the sum of my parts, but I don't want others defining me by one thing.

As for how I see ADD in relation to my faults, failures, or even achivements, it's not meant to be a dismissal of personal responsibility, but again, I'm at the part of the path where it's important to see why I have certain seemingly unbreakable patterns. In academia, knowing that I have ADD provides me with testing, assignment, and even note-taking accomodations if I want them, because they recognize that the second "D" in ADD prevents me from catching details and slows me down in tests and assignments. So it's not that I don't take responsibility by thinking of ADD as a disability, but it relieves me from a great amount of guilt, self-deprication, and depression to know that my past has been greatly influenced by the disorder. And the present is greatly influenced to the degree that I haven't learned to cope properly. But no, if I had hit that girl (and I nearly did...I gasped and swore at myself, even though she didn't) and hurt her with my car, I wouldn't have walked away whistling, while passing the blame off to ADD. No, I would have died inside. But I can't ignore that it's a pattern easily explainable by ADD, meaning it's something I've got to get a hold of. By addressing ADD, I believe I can greatly reduce moments and mistakes like that. By addressing ADD, I can better pay attention to my wife instead of rasing my voice and fixiating on my own emotions. By addressing ADD

As for the good things that I do and have always done, I simply refuse to associate them with ADD. Why? Because I don't want it to overshadow my life. I understand that some people just won't get that. That's cool--so long as they don't discriminate against me. When I go to take the eight-hour FE (fundamentals of engineering) exam next year, I'm going to sign up for testing accomodations--separate room, free of distractions, extra testing time to allow for breaks, etc. If I failed that exam (<70%, I think) because those accomodations didn't exist, would I blame ADD? Well, yeah, in part. If I had worked my ***** off and did everything I could to prepare and still botched it, I would wonder how I can understand concepts deeply and fail while some pretty superficial engineering undergrads pass with flying colors.

I'm just curious, are you opposed to disability accomodations for ADD? If so, is it because they imply a lack of personal responsibility?

Also, I wanted to say that when I said that the ADD-is-me-and-I-am-ADD viewpoint creates an "us versus them" problem, I meant "us" as those with ADD and "them" as those without ADD (the "muggles," if you will). And Harry Potter novels actually talk a great deal about this problem, juvenile as they may be. It's not subgrouping that I'm talking about, it's "ADD-ers" looking outside the ADD community and saying "you don't understand me, so we can't have a relationship." (See my hypocritical signature.) So that's that.

Thanks again Meadd, (or Tammy?...I don't know how to address you)

Either one. I have been addressed as the hyperactive allergic moderator so any resemblance that isn't insulting is fine. . .



To answer your question, I'm currently a research assistant in a university engineering department, while trying (painfully) to get a Masters of Engineering degree.

Wow I was pretty close. . .




Thank you for responding, as this thread seems to have died otherwise. And I'm sure this topic has been reincarnated in several different forms, so I can see how it would be a yawner as a repeat.

Assumption is correct this topic has been discussed several times and some of those discussion have been rather heated. . .so other members reactions (or lack there of )I am unsure as to weather or not it is boredom of the topic the fact we aren’t “ripping each others throats out” or the memories of formal warnings from similar discussions in the past. . . I don’t mind conversing with you, your irritation is obvious however I am betting you are normally a pleasant person who is usually accepting.




whatever and say that splitting the parts up misses the bigger picture or say that failing to systematically classify the parts fails to see important details. That's "lumping" or "splitting.")

See I understand the importance of both. . . the big picture is necessary to see the whole idea concept or group however the fine details are also important. . . I tend to have multiple perspective concepts however I have a global view. . . I know it is how my mind operates that causes me to see thing the way I do. . . I figure the same goes for you as well. I find both abilities equally valuable. . .

I am a strong believer in the value of diversity. . .




As for how I see ADD in relation to my faults, failures, or even achievements, it's not meant to be a dismissal of personal responsibility, but again, I'm at the part of the path where it's important to see why I have certain seemingly unbreakable patterns.

Why?

I am wondering what the difference is between

Saying ADD is the cause of nothing but negative traits while refuting the possibility that some of the traits can also be advantageous

And

blaming ADD for some of your not so good traits.

My perspective - If traits can do nothing but negative then they are to blame and frankly there is nothing I can do about it.

If traits can be a deficit in the academic setting but an asset in the creative setting then you have traits who’s expression is dependant upon other thing besides the traits them selves things that can be changed or modified. This is why you are seeking accommodation is it not because the environment is easier to change than the traits?

Example time management is a problem for me as an ADDers I tend to loose track of it because I am drawn to stimulating things in my environment . . . my brain are always looking for in-put some thing to capture my interest . . . . what would be the best way to keep better track of time? Making the passage of time a stimulating in-put. . . simply saying I have poor time perception because I have this ADD disorder doesn’t really give me any where to go for solutions.




As for the good things that I do and have always done, I simply refuse to associate them with ADD. Why? Because I don't want it to overshadow my life. I understand that some people just won't get that. That's cool--so long as they don't discriminate against me

It is your ADD and your life feel free to choose the perspective that works for you . One thing though don’t forget the why question Why does this perspective work for you. . . Off the top of my head right now the disorder perspective works for you because if it isn’t presented as a disability then they won’t allow for accommodations in school. I do not discriminate against you unfortunately at this time seeking accommodations is probably your best bet. I have no doubt you need the accommodations and I do not judge your actions one way or another. You must do what is necessary to survive in your present environment . . . who am I to tell you what is necessary to survive in your own enviroment?. . . . that isn't my place and I know it.



I'm just curious, are you opposed to disability accommodations for ADD? If so, is it because they imply a lack of personal responsibility?

I do not oppose disability accommodations as far as the individual receiving them goes. . . the opposition I have about them doesn’t have any thing to do with the request for them. . . but the need. . . if you a disabled person can learn how to be an engineer even though your test wasn’t timed then why is their a need to have the stupid test timed to begin with?

If universities didn’t have heaping helping of un-necessary busy work and BS then you the student with ADD would not need accommodations. . . I will probably never understand why the inability to tolerate an un-necessary amount of redundant BS is considered a disorder if every one had this same aversion then there would be less moronic BS. . . I hardly see where this would be a bad thing.




Also, I wanted to say that when I said that the ADD-is-me-and-I-am-ADD viewpoint creates an "us versus them" problem, I meant "us" as those with ADD and "them" as those without ADD (the "muggles," if you will)

Perhaps the poor communication was on my behalf this time.

This mind set of us the ADDers verses them the not ADDers was set up when we as ADD individuals were expected to operate in an environment we did not create and were never designed to function within it’s confines. Then many have been emotionally abused for being different and some of us even physically punished for not being like “them” Sorry I believe in diversity however this same believe has rarely been extended to me the diverse person. I was spanked every Sunday for over two years because I was hyperactive and it physically hurt for me to sit still for two hours when I was seven.

So the us vs. them is there. . it has been scene the day we were all born Almost all of us at one time or another were treated badly by teachers parents, employers, ect… because we are different. . . the division was created but not by us. Most here are simply reacting to a life time of this . . . we are a sub-set of people who have a disorder . . .because we are different . . . the dichotomy . . . . it is simply more openly spoken of here. It is a way of relieving the pain.

I do not have any thing against non-ADDers again I am pro-diversity however the ridged social structures and expectation I do have a problem with. . . stupidity simply irritates me and society is full of stupid crap and because I will call stupid crap just that I am labeled disordered while moronic BS is considered normal.



the "muggles," if you will

I rather like this term can’t say I have ever heard this one before. . . how original very cool! :D

Yup Tamms maybe it is time to revive the "Impairment" thread from the archives? Wasn't that YOUR thread?

And I say to you once again, if the message conveyed from my bare feet to my brain was anything other than "You have to mop this floor again, you slacker!"...would I be considered impaired?

Just for the record, I am in the "I AM ADHD" camp, since it cannot and never will be separated from who I am. And I do believe it is Muggles vs. Wizards...but only because Muggles find us to be odd and different. I personally feel sorry for Muggles; they really are missing something and attention to details and paperwork looks pretty boring to me, but that's just me, ya know?

lol !

Oh the “How do you see your ADD and why” thread. . . I remember that. Have to look for it later my lunch break is almost over and I have to go back to work so I can pay the internet bill buy medications and all that rotten dolling out of money stuff.

I too can not distinguish between me and my ADD however I understand some here can or at least want to. I do not understand but fluvial seems like a really nice person who seems willing to explore this without accusing me of wearing rose colored glasses. . . although I do not understand the desire to sort self from ADD fluvial seems to be explaining his reasoning pretty well . . . he is of the I have “ADD camp” but when the plump lady sings in the end he is one of us. . . I know you are the kind of person who will agree he is worthy of acceptance.

I am just a nosey type who always wants to know why, why do you see this when I see that? What does the view look like from over there. . . I don’t really want to go there(I doubt I could even if I got the notion) so having it explained is the next best thing to being there.

Fluvial you have been very kind and patient with this discussion ,this I do appreciate.




Just for the record, I am in the "I AM ADHD" camp, since it cannot and never will be separated from who I am. And I do believe it is Muggles vs. Wizards...but only because Muggles find us to be odd and different. I personally feel sorry for Muggles; they really are missing something and attention to details and paperwork looks pretty boring to me, but that's just me, ya know?


I have found debating them to be really very educational and this is correct there are many things that they simple do not see that are obvious to me. . . which can be fun. . . . they think I am heading one way with point of view but it is an illusion, because I often do a 180 and go straight back at them. . . can’t help but love the great wtf reaction. . . so I agree Muggles do think differently and it isn’t always an advantage!

Lunch over see you all this evening after work. . . .

I just don't want other people to lump me. It's ok if I lump myself as the sum of my parts, but I don't want others defining me by one thing.
Fluvial, completely understand this part.


For the rest, I think people go thru a process before deciding how to view and work with an ADD diagnosis, and a lot depends on the impact on their lives up to that point. Personally, I have to know exactly how ADD impacts me, exactly how it affects my life before I accept it. That's how I am with any change, including adjusting for ADD once I knew about it. At the moment that has led to actually considering my brain as a recalcitrant cohort I have to coax and cajole into doing what I want. Healthy for the long term? I very much doubt it. Nor do I intend to get stuck here. But it sure is enlightening and the process of discovery has been kinda fun.

I have no idea where I'll wind up on the 'lumpers' 'splitters' spectrum. But at the moment I'm the puzzle girl--taking the pieces apart, examining them, and how they all go back together, and while all of me is ADD, ADD is not the sum of me. At the moment, that is. I can't embrace something that has impacted my life in such a difficult way, but there sure are some facets I like. Can't say how I'll feel about it next week!

Because I see myself as "being ADHD" doesn't mean I do not know how it effects my life. . . one of the most important things in ADD treatment is educating one self about ADD and this includes the most important part which is learning how ADD effects you the person.

I understand my tendency to "lump" has a lot to do with my belief about life. I have a really basic belief system which I can share a part of. . here. The tiniest particle is the atom which has positive parts, negative parts and neutral parts. . . how many of each determines the "type" of atom. . . basic third grade science. . . .

If every thing is made up of these atoms then there are atoms in every thing including meadd823. . . . along with my ADHD. . . if atoms have positive negative and neutral parts then so does my ADHD. . . how many portions of each part determines how I am ADHD. . .how I see my ADHD is how I perceive having it. . .my perception has a direct effect upon my attitude which in turn greatly influences my words, actions and decisions.

The more of these particle of my ADHD I see the more information I have about how ADHD effects me the person . . . we all know the more information the better chances we will have of make good decisions. . . I do see the negative aspects of my ADHD. The fact I am typing this when I should be in bed means I would have to be in denial not to notice, however along with the obvious negative particles I seek to note the positive ones that inevitable must be present also. . . then we have the majority that are neutral and are neither positive or negative by simple are but still have a bearing upon my over all being. . . seeing only the negative would make me a negatively charged particle. . . thus a negatively charged person some thing I do not wish to be. This is how “lumping” works for me. . . . .

Hi, I don't have any conclusive answers -- not even much wisdom on this subject. I just wanted to say that I struggle very much with the lines between identity and disorder and which things I can change by *trying* harder and which things are just the way I am. I feel ya'.

I'm still rather unsure which "camp" i fall into but i do believe that the segregation does stem from the innate need for us to fit in and be loved naturally. I don't know about all, but i would say most of us had a childhood where we didn't feel "right" even though we might have been able to find a comfort zone in society. That feeling with the unfulfilled "need" will isolate aswell as cause bitterness especially if there seems to be hurdles set for you while others run gracefully. I think that people are simply reacting to the same experience in different ways. So wouldn't those ways people react be called actual traits?We all seem to over-analyze but i believe which side of the fence we fall on is dependant on who we are.

Those who "are adhd" now belong somewhere, a place where thier feelings and tendencies* are not considered odd or strange by others or especially themselves and are finally feel accepted and strangely "normal". The thought that those traits might not be theirs whether good, bad, or ugly is a small sacrafice to believe that they know where they finally belong or who they are. When unaware of their disorder, most people never went to them and said "wow, your really good at looking at the big picture. I wonder why that is?" But like Meadd823, many are punished for a different quality which they have no control over either. They knew they were different but punished for it. So when given the option, they choose to isolate themselves completely from the people who inflicted those negative feelings.


Those who "have adhd" still grasp at the idea of being normal. Maybe they had an easier time fitting in and they took those troubles onto them selves as personality flaws. They also might have been punished or felt different which was out of their control but they took on a bit more of the blame and believed that they were normal but something was wrong with them. When they had the option to have something explain themselves they would rather avoid it. They were always normal and they've strived so hard to make things work and feel good about the positives they had in life. Now someone is wants to take that all away all away.

The "are" group seems to be a little more positive in that the classification or grouping only confirms all the positive characteristics within themselves. They' are able to look at it more objectively. The "have" group feel disabled and will not have a "disability" which has caused them so much grief, also take credit for the few things they get to feel good about in they're life.

traits are just that traits; they are neither good or bad they simply exist . . . . it is how the traits are expressed in the individual that makes the good vs. bad thing. Exactly. Both camps tend to put so much on these traits that it tends to consume them or define them. The "am and have" is true dichotomy but flawed in that when people consider if they are, for instance, not motivated because they "are" or "have" adhd it solidifys the initial trait of not being motivated. I think it is because the diagnosis process is so difficult that so many characteristics are used. Then people use those things in them to define them. Problem is that people fall back on them as fact or as even worse idea, unchangeable.

Those positive trait list irks me just as much as the negative ones. Like this one (http://addadhd.suite101.com/article.cfm/positive_aspects_of_adhd_and_add). Now how many of the negative lists say things like "mean, self-centered, arrogant, hateful" Like Fluvian said, believing the positives discredit the "muggles" of the same things. Everyone is creative and that is relative to the norm that is around us.

To add to that Nothing is always anything or only something. Everybody, adhd or not, is selfish, kind, humorous, boring, helpful, humble, arrogant. etc but it is the varying degrees of those things in us that make us different. The same goes with the ADDers.

I think ADD has a few basic traits that were there since childhood. As children, we tried to do things the way people told us but it didn't make sense to us. We did things as we understood it. and that may have been creative to others. But it's not the sole definition of creativity. I believe I'm creative but i can't draw worth a lick. I'm creative in writing form.

How can an word like "creative" or "intelligent" be linked to some mental condition. Adhd doesn't equal creativity, understanding, or intelligence. Just like the negative traits don't equal a bad or stupid child. Like Meadd said we just survived. But I survived and Meadd survived and Fluvian survived. Seperately, each in our own way, but similarly.

Also, i think nothing should take away from what you are and the accomplishments a person has made because of them. Say the Adhd has caused you to think a bit differently than most and that is found to be creative or intelligent. oh well? I mean Shaquille O'neal doesn't wonder if it was only because he's so tall or so strong that he was so good. He was tall and strong so he used it.

I think someone should prepose a new camp.Instead of you "have" or "are" adhd maybe "you have adhd". We're still who were are deep inside of us. This argument in itself seems to draw strong lines that divide us as individuals.

I also like to use the word "disorder" instead of "disablity" because it doesn't say "i can't do something" but it says i do things differently or "out of normal order". It isn't like we can't walk, we just walk at a different pace than is the accepted norm. If society was constantly moving and fast paced, most of our negatives wouldn't be negatives at all. And believe me i don't like rose colored glasses, I can be realistic but i believe that is a realistic approach to it. We are disadvantaged in the way the world works and we need to understand and believe it to move on but theres no use having the first hurdle we have to jump, be our own.

And as far as being lumped in..That does suck. In a few words people can take away everything you've worked so hard to achieve or take away the very few positive charateristics you have. Horrible. Roosevelt said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent". I know it's cheesy but i do think it applys.

However, if people are throwing rocks at you, then i suppose it wouldn't work at all. hmm...

So, there I was, on Thanksgiving with my own meal to cook for the family, picking up my patient at 8am and taking her to the other families home so she could have a nice Thanksgiving dinner. Aside from this discussion that is amazing in all aspects.

I know everyone has to come to a conclusion of each of their conflicting issues on their own. I am far from mine. But i hope i get to a point that when i can do something like that,me "having" or "being" or "wanting" or "smelling" adhd isn't really an issue anymore. I'm sure that wonderfull woman who had a thanksgiving dinner when she wasn't going to, really didn't care either.

mayadd wow you really gave this things some serious thought. . . . good for you and your post show the progress wonderfully. . . . .you made some most excellent points


I think someone should prepose a new camp.Instead of you "have" or "are" adhd maybe "you have adhd". We're still who were are deep inside of us. This argument in itself seems to draw strong lines that divide us as individuals.


Well at first I used the terms "camp A' and "Camp B" to as a means of showing two opposing perspectives in a discussion but every one kept forgetting which camp was which (including myself) so this "having ADD " and "being ADD" is a simplified terminology. . . . so no one has to remember.

Believe it or not the civility of discussion between these two sides has improved dramatically over the past year. You have been here only a couple of months which would explain your perspective but for those of us who have been around in measurements of years have another. . . . .and for good reasons. This one (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22322) is still open so it isn't as bad as opposition can get.

When I first began moderating this section we had threads so heated that despite the fact there were three of us actively moderating keeping up with these discussions still competed (amount of hours) with my part time job.

My desire is to illustrate that I see this particular division differently because I have been here longer. The hyperlink I used for a comparison is just over a year old. I wanted to share with you from my perspective.

I have also devoted a lot of mental energy into exploring and discussing the various points of view.

As my time here on ADDf has effected my perception of the "camp divisions" the amount of time I have known about and been treating my ADD will effect my perception of the condition and how it relates to me.

The perspective I have about my ADD has evolved and changed over time. I saw things differently when my ADD diagnosis went from measurements of months to measurements in increments of years. I am now able to measure my ADD treatment time in decades.

The most valuable lesson I have learned in all of this I will share with you

#1 - My perspective is right for me but not necessarily for every one.
When the need arises I can still discuss ADD from the "having" perspective. There was a time when that point of view was mine also.

#2 - I doubt opposing perspectives will ever go any where. This is a good thing I see the difference in opinion in terms of eco systems. . . each side needing the existence of the other to grow a balanced and healthy community that is still able to relate enough to the negative aspects to relate to struggling members but not so negative that the community gets sucked down into some depressing hell.

#3 - All societies need a common ground in order to "gather" ( here it would be having ADD) however thriving is produced by the diversity of the individual members. If all were farmers then we would still be riding around in hoarse and buggies using kerosene lanterns because there would be no new inventions. If all were inventors we would all starve to death. . . .because there would be on one growing food.


Most importantly ;for reason's listed above I see diversity as necessary. If every one here on ADDF saw ADD the exact same way I did I doubt I would have found two years worth of discussion to participate in. Differences can cause conflict but differences also generate interest.

Weather or not this opposing point of views and the discussion are healthy or harmful all depends upon how the differences are handled. When I quit seeing a different point of view as some thing that needed to be changed and began seeing it as a chance to explore my own I was better able to appreciate and respect those who do not see things as I do. I may offer an opposing post but the idea is to generate thinking not insults


Now if I could just react with calmness to a hostile post I would be one step closer to perfect. . . . not! but it would be progress. . . . .I tend to respond in like tonation


Thanks for your post mayadd your fresh points of view were a breath of fresh air.


Now I can lay my happy hinny down to sleep if I can just get my mind to SHUT UP!!!

Thanks Meadd. Yeah, i am really green on alot of this stuff so im trying to learn. THanks for being understanding of my post. :)

Thanks Meadd. Yeah, i am really green on alot of this stuff so im trying to learn. THanks for being understanding of my post

Mayadd we are born knowing how to do three things. . . . eat, poop, and cry every thing else we have to learn. . . . .I tooo am in the process of learning. . . .