View Full Version : Chronic Depression, High IQ and ADHD


jeaniebug
01-07-07, 01:55 PM
This article was originally posted by D.B. Cooper. I actually saved into a Word file on my computer and was re-reading it this week.


Quote:
Adults with superior I.Q.s and ADD/ADHD face unique risks that can spell failure academically and professionally, according to the results of a study presented at the annual meeting of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (AACAP) in October.

One hundred and three adults who participated in a study last year had I.Q.ís of at least 120 on the verbal or performance sections or both when tested on the revised Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, and all met the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, either the combined type or predominantly the inattentive type.

Their I.Q.ís put them in the top 9 percent of the general population, said Thomas Brown, Ph.D., who conducted the study and presented the results at the Toronto AACAP meeting. Brown is associate director of the Yale Clinic for Attention and Related Disorders in New Haven, Conn.

"Increasingly, we are seeing that ADD is a problem of executive function in which specific areas of the brain are impaired that provide central control, and connect, prioritize, and integrate other functions," Brown said. "A key element of executive function is a working memory, which allows an individual to hold onto information, manipulate it, and retrieve it from long-term memory."

Brown noted that 60 percent of the participants tested at or below the 75th percentile on subsets of the I.Q. test that required short-term concentration and working memory.

"Nonetheless, their overall verbal or performance I.Q. scores were high enough to carry the lower scores," said Brown.

He explained that he was especially interested in this sample "because all the participants had similar intellectual abilities, but some were very successful while others had severe difficulty."

The researchers rated 18 percent of the sample as being very well adjusted, because they achieved educational and employment levels consistent with their intellectual abilities, were financially independent, maintained at least one stable social relationship, and had no drug or alcohol abuse problems at the time of the study.

Most participants were rated well adjusted to adequately adjusted (44 percent and 30 percent, respectively) because they were able to meet at least two or more of the researchersí criteria.

Not surprisingly, educational achievement was positively correlated with being well adjusted. For example, everyone in the very well-adjusted group had at least a bachelorís degree; 78 percent also had a masterís degree, and 17 percent a doctoral degree.

Those participants tended to include the highest number of professionals including doctors, lawyers, and business people, noted Brown.

In contrast, a little more than half of the poorly adjusted group (11 percent of the sample) had dropped out of college. Only 9 percent completed a bachelorís degree, and none had a masterís or doctoral degree. Despite their superior intelligence, those participants tended to be in unskilled jobs or unemployed, noted Brown.

Comorbid psychiatric disorders were nearly entirely correlated with poorer levels of adjustment. Fifty-six percent of the poorly functioning group had major depressive disorder, 82 percent had dysthymia, and 9 percent were diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

In contrast, only 6 percent of the top-functioning group suffered from major depressive disorder, 28 percent had dysthymia, and 6 percent had bipolar disorder.

"Interestingly, 17 percent of the best-adjusted group met the diagnostic criteria for generalized anxiety disorder. Nervousness in an individual with ADD can be helpful in containing some of the impulsive responses and keeping the person moving toward his or her goals," observed Brown.

The poorly adjusted group had the highest levels of panic disorder (9 percent), social phobia (19 percent), and alcohol and drug abuse (10 percent and 20 percent, respectively).

"Substance abuse, depression, social phobia, learning disorders, and panic disorder all contributed to poor adjustment outcomes," said Brown.

Participants in the very well-adjusted group also reported that they had parents or mentors who were very supportive of their strengths and were not locked into battles over control or excessively critical, added Brown. Other factors contributing to their success were proven abilities in sports or the arts, holding jobs while in college, and having "functional" friends.


I remember the general shock and amazement of teachers and family members when my older brother and I had IQ tests in grade school, because he scored somewhere in the 140 range and I was in th 120's I did well in school, although procrastination and disorganization were problems. I went to a very small rural school as well, which I think helped.

I have had depression for as long as I can remember. I have been on a large variety of antidepressants for the last 15 years. My psychologist says she does feel I have ADHD inatentive type.

My appointment with psychiatrist is Monday, and I have perhaps mentioned this too many times already. :confused: Sorry! Anyway, my depression has been worse over the last few weeks and my anxiety is increasing w/anticipation of talking to the Dr.

It has been so frustrating that I called to make an appointment in September or October and couldn't get in until January. I know many people on this forum have had major waits for dx. So I will stop posting on my "impending" dx, and perhaps get closer to the real dx tomorrow.

And thanks DB Cooper for sharing this article. :D :D :D

PJ

SB_UK
01-07-07, 03:29 PM
... rather than explaining why (just yet) - this article reminded me of a story which my wife has just read - of a connection between 'sensory deprivation and self-harm'.

It was the extremely disturbing story of humans being kept in the dark - complete sensory deprivation - I believe - and their reaction to being shut off from the kinda' stimulation - which we take for granted.

... smell, sights, sounds ... and the like ...

The connection between these two stories shines a revealing spotlight on the contextual disorder which haunts AD(H)D.

Actually - a revealing spotlight- on being {alive, human} also.

Vhan
01-08-07, 02:09 AM
Hmm...I've never had a IQ test... :p

It keeps talking about "well/poor adjusted groups" ......I wonder what the qualifications for a that is :p

Participants in the very well-adjusted group also reported that they had parents or mentors who were very supportive of their strengths and were not locked into battles over control or excessively critical, added Brown. Other factors contributing to their success were proven abilities in sports or the arts, holding jobs while in college, and having "functional" friends
Amazeing, I didn't know that something like this could have such a broad effect on a person....I wonder what it is about the people with ADD that makes them thrive in conditions like the above...

janesays
01-08-07, 02:16 AM
So what does this mean jeanie? I can't pull much from all the statistical data that you are writing about but I'd like to know more about this info could you give us a link?

meadd823
01-08-07, 05:13 AM
My appointment with psychiatrist is Monday, and I have perhaps mentioned this too many times already

((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))

Tis cool . . . .let us know how it comes out

meadd823
01-08-07, 05:23 AM
The researchers rated 18 percent of the sample as being very well adjusted, because they achieved educational and employment levels consistent with their intellectual abilities, were financially independent, maintained at least one stable social relationship, and had no drug or alcohol abuse problems at the time of the study.

Hmm jeanie I like you so this has nothing to do with you as a person. I as a person have problems with success categorizations in research because of the way it is manipulated to show exactly what the researcher is looking for.


Note the underlined parts of the study quoted above


Not surprisingly, educational achievement was positively correlated with being well adjusted

Yea because they had made it part of the well adjusted criteria (the underlined part) . . . .like duh man! If I made being female part of my well adjusted criteria then being female would correlate with being well adjusted and no it would not be surprising sense I set it up that way- :p

Am I really NOT supposed to see this

ADD logic and social insanity


For example, everyone in the very well-adjusted group had at least a bachelorís degree; 78 percent also had a masterís degree, and 17 percent a doctoral degree.

So I am NOT well adjusted because I donít have a bachelorís degree???? Is there some thing wrong with an associate degree, or a certification how about a brain any way .


My partner isnít well adjusted because he didnít graduate high school???? Gary sitting in college classes yea right don't make me laugh. So he isn't "well adjusted" even if he make as much money as some one with a bachelors degree and has three times the flexibility???

I smellin plant food . . . what is well adjusted and according to whom any way. :confused: Well adjusted is being happy, rich, too stupid to know better. . . . .

Comorbid psychiatric disorders were nearly entirely correlated with poorer levels of adjustment. Fifty-six percent of the poorly functioning group had major depressive disorder, 82 percent had dysthymia, and 9 percent were diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

Should I mention that not meeting the researchers ideas of well adjusted would effect the perception of well adjusted. . . . or is this now painfully obvious




I will give the researchers credit where credit is due.


Finally they are beginning to look for what can be done right, instead of looking only at the negatives. Again gee wish I had thought of that. . . .


The second one being some thing I have only mention five zillion times now . . . .co-morbid effecting the apparent out come of those diagnosis with ADD. . . I have made people mad for constantly picking at Barkley for doing this crap and then saying this is ADD. . . . . .

These guys could learn a lot form an ADDer who doesnít have some fancy degree in science but can still think? God they are only what three years behind me now????. At least they are finally catching up. :rolleyes:





Participants in the very well-adjusted group also reported that they had parents or mentors who were very supportive of their strengths and were not locked into battles over control or excessively critical, added Brown. Other factors contributing to their success were proven abilities in sports or the arts, holding jobs while in college, and having "functional" friends.


I wonder what it is about the people with ADD that makes them thrive in conditions like the above...

Brown is out lining what the ďfunctionalĒ had in common which to me is the only valuable part of the study. . . . well besides saying some things I have for ever now

Things I have been saying forever now

Negative perception is a waster of time

Co-morbid make living with ADD harder and having other problems besides ADD effects outcomes

Staying away from dysfunctional toxic people is worth the effort

ADD is a contextual disorder as are research results

To Vhan:

The things that will increase the chances of being well adjusted despite having ADD


Their strengths were supported by parent or mentors,

Not getting into stupid conflict with control freaks ignoring and / avoiding critical people who are overly judgmental

Having functional friends . . . .not hanging out with drugged up drunken losers

Finding out what they are good at like sports or the arts and participating in these activities (i.e. finding out what their strengths are and using those to over come weak areas Ė more deja ve)


Working and getting a feel for the working world while learning responsibility

Vhan these are statistics so do listen to the things that increase your chances of success but do not get too caught up in statistics. . . .

Statistically I am working a minim wage dead end job

NOT. . . . . .


I have three professions I can make a living doing with one needing a bit more development.

I go when I want, donít when I donít want, I travel all the time because at 43 my children are grown.

I interchange my ďprofessionsĒ at will because I ummm can ;)

Crazy~Feet
01-08-07, 08:06 AM
Chronic depression; no

College degree; no

High IQ; yes, 187

ADHD; yes, severely

Are those the right answers? They are from where I am sitting.

Vhan
01-08-07, 09:41 AM
Ohh, ok thanks mead! (sorry to make you re-explain some things >.< ) :p

I'm gonna get-me-a IQ test!

jeaniebug
01-08-07, 12:55 PM
Tammy,

Your post is right on the money, there were several things in the article that I agreed with and lots of things seemed out of place. And you are so funny! :p :p

The one thing I found personally relevant was the observation that: Fifty-six percent of the poorly functioning group had major depressive disorder, 82 percent had dysthymia.

According to this article I am part of the poorly functioning group because I do not have a "relationship" at this time, and since I only get paid during the school year (185 days), my net salary "is not consistent with with my educational and intellectual ability" so I can't claim to be financially independent except for the fact that my daughter (who is profoundly hearing impaired) has some income and shares living expenses, and I work at other jobs in the summer or part time during the school year. I also feel that caring for visually impaired and hearing impaired children may not pay well, but is just as important as jobs that do pay well, like exploring for oil and gas (my former "job").

However, unlike the rest of poorly functiong, I guess I am the only one with a Master's Degree. Oh, on re-reading it says a "social" relationship, and I do have some good friends. I guess point is that I feel as if I am not functioning well at all. And I have a terrible problem with depression and anxiety, and I am HOPING that the Psychiatrist can see that my absent-mindedness, disorganization, procrastination, depression and anxiety are adversely affecting my life.

After I posted this, I felt that I should not have put high IQ in the title, because I personally feel every one with ADHD that I know or have met is funny, creative and I personally believe they are "smarter" than average. I enjoy their sense of humor and ability to get straight to the point.

I also have no time for political posturing in the workplace, like you Tammy. I am getting so fed up with the "can't do" mindset of my supervisor I want to throttle him. That's a whole 'nother story, tho.

And many of my favorite people did not go to college. And I know they are extremely intelligent. My "male" friend who I still see occasionally, but we have cooled off (if you know what I mean) since I moved 2 years ago, is so smart and mechanically inclined, flies planes and really I think of him as a engineer. He is not able to read the instruction manual though, and is dyslexic. My very best friend went to college for a while, but now that she has 5 kids and lives in a rural area, she cooks at a truck stop.

The article does look like it says you had to go to college to be considered "functional" and that is so much "Plant Food" as you say, Ms. Tammy! :eyebrow:

And Vhan, we could start a pool on this, but my bet for you would be an IQ in the 140-160 range. ;) I really enjoy your posts and your sense of humor.

Later! PJ :D :D :D

Nova
01-08-07, 01:05 PM
103 adults who participated in this specific 'study'.


One hundred and three adults who participated in a study last year had I.Q.ís of at least 120 on the verbal or performance sections or both when tested on the revised Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, and all met the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, either the combined type or predominantly the inattentive type.

The only 'problem' I (this ADHDer) have, with 'executive function', is when a specific 'Executive', isn't 'functioning' as well, as they need to, in their office 'job'. ;)

My memory capablity, is referred to as *being*, 'impeccable'.


"Increasingly, we are seeing that ADD is a problem of executive function in which specific areas of the brain are impaired that provide central control, and connect, prioritize, and integrate other functions," Brown said. "A key element of executive function is a working memory, which allows an individual to hold onto information, manipulate it, and retrieve it from long-term memory."


'Well adjusted', because those participants, were able to meet these specific researchers' criteria.



Most participants were rated well adjusted to adequately adjusted (44 percent and 30 percent, respectively) because they were able to meet at least two or more of the researchersí criteria.

Not surprisingly, educational achievement was positively correlated with being well adjusted. For example, everyone in the very well-adjusted group had at least a bachelorís degree; 78 percent also had a masterís degree, and 17 percent a doctoral degree.

There are many successful, well adjusted 'professionals', who are not doctors, lawyers, or business 'executives'.


Those participants tended to include the highest number of professionals including doctors, lawyers, and business people, noted Brown.


11 % of the total 103 participants in this specific study..

Percent means 'per hundred'.

Roughly 11 participants of the total 103, were depicted as being 'poorly adjusted', according to the researchers' criteria, for this specific study.


9 % of the 11 participants completed a bachelor's degree.
Roughly 9 participants, of the total 103.


In contrast, a little more than half of the poorly adjusted group (11 percent of the sample) had dropped out of college. Only 9 percent completed a bachelorís degree, and none had a masterís or doctoral degree.



56 % of the 11 participants (see my reply just above)
Roughly 6 participants of the total 103, had 'depressive disorders'.

82 % of the 11 participants
Roughly 8 participants of the total 103, had dysthmia.

9 % of the 11 participants
Roughly 9 participants of the total 103, were diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder.



[QUOTE] Comorbid psychiatric disorders were nearly entirely correlated with poorer levels of adjustment. Fifty-six percent of the poorly functioning group had major depressive disorder, 82 percent had dysthymia, and 9 percent were diagnosed with bipolar disorder.



103 people 'studied'.
All met the 'researchers criteria', for this specific 'study', in one way, or another. ;)


I'm not going to declare what my 'IQ' is.
Never *saw* a point in doing that.
Let's just say I can 'run circles' around these 'researchers', and call it a day.

In case the point is neglected, I am a successful 'professional', who has been diagnosed with ADHD, and Bipolar Disorder, since a very 'young age'.

I didn't learn to be 'well adjusted', nor did I learn to be successful, in my 'profession', while I was in college.

I 'learned' all 'that', through my own, personal 'life' experiences.

janesays
01-09-07, 02:16 AM
Okay for someone who is not on meds right now and doesn't like reading numbers with their letters. What does this study mean. Apparently I do not have the scientific method down as pat as I should. Are they saying that people with ADD and coexisting conditions but no 'personal problems' are likely to have a high IQ? Is that all their saying? I think I'm on my own with this one. In anycase it probably doesn't apply to me.

Not out of school yet. BFA next fall then going for masters.
I Q - I do not know what my score is I never want to pay for a test.

meadd823
01-09-07, 06:48 AM
What does this study mean.

the abridged version the author was trying to get accross in my opinion.



"Substance abuse, depression, social phobia, learning disorders, and panic disorder all contributed to poor adjustment outcomes," said Brown.

Nova
01-09-07, 11:23 AM
When I posted my last reply, pertaining to that study, I was trying to point out that 8-11 people, out of 103 'studied', doesn't mean *everyone*.

I was also attempting to point out, that you have to read the 'fine print', when it comes to 'studies/statistics', because they're not as 'objective', as you'd like to believe they are.

Studies/statistics, seem like they're talking about *everyone*, when they're actually talking about a deliberate number of individuals, who managed to 'meet' the requirements, that the researchers' were specifically looking for.

They're tricky that way, because they're 'purpose', is to make you believe the information covers 'everyone'...and if you do believe that- they've served their purpose.

Kinda like a 'marketing' technique, that commercials use to sell their 'products'.

SolarLife
01-09-07, 11:28 AM
Interesting article. I relate a little too much :rolleyes:...

ravcat
01-09-07, 11:52 AM
I am 32 years old.
I have adhd and depression.
And by the way I am a cardiologist.
I have my own house, car and good paycheck.
But my life is still a mess - I am unable to maintain relationships.

Vhan
01-10-07, 01:02 AM
So, ummm.........how do you get one of those IQ tests again?.....

I tried a internet one, and....well....I think a test painted on the inside of a cave dateing back to 2000B.C would of been more helpfull....

Btw, #23 really stumped me...anyone know what the radius of a moose is?

meadd823
01-10-07, 02:38 AM
When I posted my last reply, pertaining to that study, I was trying to point out that 8-11 people, out of 103 'studied', doesn't mean *everyone*.


Agreed!





I am 32 years old.
I have adhd and depression.
And by the way I am a cardiologist.
I have my own house, car and good paycheck.
But my life is still a mess - I am unable to maintain relationships.

Yea that is one of the many parts the study left out, being a doctor doesn't help relationships either especially if you have a busy practice. . . . .






So, ummm.........how do you get one of those IQ tests again?.....

I had mine preformed by a diagnostician both times.






Btw, #23 really stumped me...anyone know what the radius of a moose is?

Well that would depend on how well fed the moose was. . . . . a skinny moose would not have the same radius as a fat moose. :p

Sorry ADDers shouldn't take these things. . . okay this ADDer shouldn't take those things. :o

Up until now I could never figure out why they went with multiple choice instead of fill in the blank. Think I am begining to understand. . . .too complicated. :D

laila7
01-16-07, 04:40 PM
9 % of the 11 participants completed a bachelor's degree.
Roughly 9 participants, of the total 103.

9 % of the 11 participants
Roughly 9 participants of the total 103, were diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder.

I liked your point (that statistics often depict a one-sided picture), but this is really bothering me, because I'm a numbers kind of girl....

9% of 11 is roughly 1 participant, not 9 participants!

Nova
01-16-07, 04:58 PM
You're awesome, Laila !

Thanks for correcting me ! :)


(Bipolars R Me ;) )


I liked your point (that statistics often depict a one-sided picture), but this is really bothering me, because I'm a numbers kind of girl....

9% of 11 is roughly 1 participant, not 9 participants!

dormammau2008
01-16-07, 05:04 PM
theres a very fine line between iQ AN DEPIOSSN THERE MEANY THINGS THAT COULD BE GOING ON FOR STATS A CLAERER PERSON MIGHT SEE THE WORD MORE AN USE THERE MIND MORE LEADING TO MORE BREAKDWON IN THE WAY THE BRAIN WORKS LIKE EVEYTHING IF YOU PUSH IT TO FAR THERES A PRICE TO PAY AN THEN YOU HAVE GENES THAT THAT HAVE SOMETHING TO PLAY WITH IT THERE SO MUCH WE DONT KNOW ONLY TIME WILL TELL I THINK WHEN WE HAVE A 3D MODLE THAT WE CAN WALK THOUGH INTERACTIVE AS OUR MINDS ARE WORKING WE FIND SO MUCH MORE OUT SO MUCH MORE TO LIFE THAN MEETS THE EYE

GOOD THREADE

DORM

geckogirl
01-19-07, 10:47 AM
Nova, you are right, study groups are select - they probably have inclusion and exclusion criteria (eg. excluding people with other cognitive disorders that may muddy results, etc) . There is probably also an element of it being opportunistic in some way, because most studies don't have the funding to do a random sample from the phonebook or electoral role type of sampling technique (which still wouldn't be a random sample of the whole of a population). Though they also may have gone to large measures to make the sample generalisable. You need to look at the methods of the actual experiment report to tell. Most studies have methodological flaws. It is impossible to create a perfect one, so scientists have to make the best study they can with the resources they have. This is why it is wise to look at the results of a number of studies from different populations - with broader and narrower inclusion criteria, different measures, etc, and see if the results still stand up. Review articles are good to look at if you want a more 'objective' picture....

BTW ordinary memory as in recall is different from working memory. Working memory is holding something in memory while you process information. So maths problems are a good example because you have to hold a formula in mind while performing calculations.

Huh?
01-20-07, 01:04 AM
I'm 26 years old, have a high IQ, bachelors degree in computer science, have a good job, nice car, just bought a house, getting married next month. I still feel like my life is a mess, like I could lose my job and fall apart at any minute. I've been depressed (feeling better lately) and abusing drugs since I was in middle school, OCD symptoms since elementary, anxiety for as long as I can remember. Just figured out the ADD part. Add me to the study! :soapbox:

jeaniebug
01-20-07, 01:54 AM
"Does anyone know what the radius of a moose is?" Well that would depend on how well fed the moose was. . . . . a skinny moose would not have the same radius as a fat moose. :p

1st you have to know the circumference (of your moose) since you already know pi. I guess you would need a moose and a tape measure. Possibly a traq gun. Then, statically, you could only claim to know the radius of that specific moose. Unless you conducted a scientific study with 103 moose participants. Necessitating more tranq darts, more mooses and a calculator. Also a lab assistant or ďMoose wranglerĒ to help with the measuring tape and to track the moose after tranquilization.

I forget what we were talking about. I didn't know there was going to be math. "Not that there's anything wrong with that!" I can see where my IQ does have some severe limitations in this case. :eek:

Nova
01-21-07, 12:50 PM
Jeannie,

If you want my opinion...

You have a 'super high' sense of humor...which, unfortunately is not one of the criteria that was 'seeked', in this specific study.

Too bad, again, in my opinion. (0:

jeaniebug
01-21-07, 01:55 PM
Jeannie,

If you want my opinion...

You have a 'super high' sense of humor...which, unfortunately is not one of the criteria that was 'seeked', in this specific study.

Too bad, again, in my opinion. (0:
AWWW, thanks, Nova! And right back at ya! Your posts seem so intelligent and/or funny it's a little intimidating :o so that means a lot to me!

inmostleaf
06-05-08, 05:37 PM
Chronic depression; no

College degree; no

High IQ; yes, 187

ADHD; yes, severely

Are those the right answers? They are from where I am sitting.


I find your IQ score to be false or profoundly exaggerated when it is universally known that no one has ever scored over 195 with a Standard Deviation of 15 on an IQ test. And not only that, there are almost no tests designed to test this high in the first place, and certainly none designed to test beyond it.

martymefurst
06-05-08, 09:21 PM
Btw, #23 really stumped me...anyone know what the radius of a moose is?

That was really pretty easy, and I'm not a Mensa type. The radius of a moose is one of the two main bones in it's lower forelegs (the radius of a human is one of the two bones between your elbow and wrist. The ulna is the other bone.)

You just have to always remember with these tests that words can have more than one meaning, like the possible range that a moose can potentially travel in an hour or a day would be a radius (but since a time parameter wasn't specified, I went with the bone. )

Justtess
06-05-08, 09:30 PM
Wow. That bit of info is very interesting. It relates to an educational handbook on twice exceptional children I had been reading and trying to learn more about.

http://www.cde.state.co.us/gt/download/pdf/TwiceExceptionalResourceHandbook.pdf

Look at page 20 on identifying 2E children. It mentions the WISC test and verbal score.

I really like the way this district is trying to help students who are gifted and show some sort of disability.

It's a long way in my son's school district to recognize and help children with high IQs with ADHD.