View Full Version : 4-year old girl dead from ADHD medication


UnleashTheHound
02-06-07, 10:32 PM
I saw this on the news today. Is it common to diagnose kids with ADHD & bipolar at such a young age (2 years old)? I thought the symptoms weren't typically clear until school-age.


http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/02/couple_arraigne.html


Couple arraigned in poisoning death of daughter (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/02/couple_arraigne.html)

By Maria Cramer, Globe Staff

HINGHAM -- A Hull couple was ordered held without bail after pleading not guilty today to charges of murdering their 4-year-old daughter by overdosing her on prescription medicine.

Michael Riley, 34, and Carolyn Riley, 32, sat next to each other in handcuffs and ankle chains crying in Hingham District Court as they heard the charges read against them in the December death of their daughter Rebecca.

Plymouth Assistant District Attorney Frank Middleton Jr. described Rebecca's painful last days. "As her lungs filled with liquid, she would succumb to a slow, painful and horrifying death," Middleton said.

John Darrell, the attorney representing Michael Riley, objected three times as Middleton tried to read a statement of the case, complaining that the graphic details would inflame the potential jury pool for a trial.

After the arraignment, he said his client was devastated by the death of his daughter. "He's crying on my shoulder, and he only met me an hour and a half ago, '' Darrell told reporters.

Michael Bourbeau, an attorney for Carolyn Riley, said the case should also focus on the psychiatrist who prescribed the medication for Rebecca, who prosecutors say was diagnosed at age 2 1/2 with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and bipolar disorder.

Prosecutors said the child died from an overdose of Clonidine, a drug that is used to treat high blood pressure in adults but is also sometimes used to treat hyperactive symptoms. The medical examiner's office determined the child died from intoxication due to the combined effect of Clonidine, valproic acid, dextronmethorphan, and chlorpheniramine.

As Michael Riley was being led into the courtroom this morning, a reporter asked him if he had killed his daughter, he replied, "No. I loved my daughter."

FightingBoredom
02-06-07, 11:30 PM
I can't imagine that a child younger than the age of 6 would exhibit anything BUT ADHD and bipolar behavior. I think there has to be more to this story.

inquisitive
02-07-07, 12:45 AM
Is it common to diagnose kids with ADHD & bipolar at such a young age (2 years old)? I thought the symptoms weren't typically clear until school-age.
its always so sad to hear of such news, espcially when the children are so young.

according to the DSM-IV-TR (2000) a part of a requirement for a diagnosis of AD/HD is that some hyperactive-impulsive or inattentive symptoms that cause impairment were present before the age of 7.

it also notes the obvious difficulty to diagnose children younger than 4-5 years. but even most 2-3 year olds are able to hold some form of attention and inactivity, which other parents would be able to distinguish the more highly active children.

Imnapl
02-07-07, 12:54 AM
I really wonder how someone was comfortable diagnosing a toddler with Bipolar Disorder.

MeGgHeAd
02-07-07, 05:57 AM
I really wonder how someone was comfortable diagnosing a toddler with Bipolar Disorder.
I agree. What a sad story. :(

She was two and half for gosh sake. She was that out of control that the only way to handle her was to prescribe her meds? and at such an unsafe level and/or combination? Who was in control of all that? Disgusting. :mad:

May her little soul rest in peace.

kruegma
02-07-07, 08:48 AM
OMG!! This is really horrifiing I have a four year old daughter and I would never think of giving her medication. I do not even feel comfortable giving her meds at the tender age of six... I also remeber a time when childeren were children and hyper I always felt that was normal. But at the same token those poor parents must also feel terrible they were just going by doctors orders. Such tragedy for everyone.

UnleashTheHound
02-07-07, 11:59 AM
I can't imagine that a child younger than the age of 6 would exhibit anything BUT ADHD and bipolar behavior. I think there has to be more to this story.
I agree there's something more to the story.

Here's another report that says that the psychiatrist claimed that the mother increased the dose of the Clonidine on her own, and she warned the mother that it could be fatal:

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=181485

But if that was the case, she controls the prescription, right? She could have been sure to not prescribe more than the recommended dosage.

Matt S.
02-07-07, 03:44 PM
Munchausen disorder by Proxy I had the experience of 30 mg of ritalin every 2.5 hours at the age of 4 because of my mother and I think that is why my symptoms are issues that children have (hyperactivity, impulsiveness cannot wait to cross the street, waiting in line) I do have ADHD now and I can accept it for what it is, but I know if that hadn't have happened I'd be a different person with a less excessive amount of energy. But yeah there are some parents that have a "Factitious disorder by proxy" and are in denial about their negligence that they overreact to their lack thereof as the "defective, crazy child" being the one to blame. It's rare but prominent more with medical illness then mental but it is a form of child abuse and a sad reality to have to accept as an adult but life is finally improving as a result. I saw that story on the news and reacted to it in a PTSD hypervigilant state, didn't sleep well either. I was effected by hearing about that.

Swede63
02-07-07, 04:09 PM
This is so sad. The coroner said that she died from a combinations of four different medications. How could this happen? At 4 yrs old????

janesays
02-07-07, 04:47 PM
There has to be more to that story. I just cannot believe that the child was on that much medication. I don't think it's right. Someone should be prosecuted for this. I wonder how she behaved that they would put her on so much medication. Couldn't they have 'dealt' with the behaviour without medication.

Scattered
02-07-07, 05:58 PM
I have a 4 year old -- this story really sadden me.:(

Combinations of medication are becoming more and more common even though there is very limited research on combination in adults and extremely little research on combinations in children. I really hope we can start moving away from the idea of a pill to fix everything and spend more of our resources on parental education and support services and utilize lot of exercise and behavioral training for very young children. Their physical and neurological systems are just developing so quickly that we really don't know what damage we're likely to inflict with combinations of medication.



Scattered

fasttalkingmom
02-07-07, 07:05 PM
Just had to hear this story again on the news as I type

Sorry, but it makes me so angry, that poor little girl

UnleashTheHound
02-07-07, 10:35 PM
There has to be more to that story. I just cannot believe that the child was on that much medication. I don't think it's right. Someone should be prosecuted for this. I wonder how she behaved that they would put her on so much medication. Couldn't they have 'dealt' with the behaviour without medication.Here's another story with more information from the affidavits. Warning, it's quite disturbing!
http://www.townonline.com/weymouth/homepage/8998949288989949950

Anyway, sounds like the parents are indeed the ones who deserve to be prosecuted, ignoring serious symptoms up to 4 days prior to the girls death that could have saved her. Giving her more medication than had been prescribed, even calling the Dr, claiming to have 'lost' the medication in order to get more. Drugging her in order to get her to fall asleep by 5pm, etc.

I still question the diagnosis and what lead the doctor to make it. Might be some criminal negligence there too.

QueensU_girl
02-08-07, 07:19 PM
Hyperactivity can be caused by things other than ADHD, too. (e.g. stress, injury, family violence, abuse, substance abuse, chaotic living conditions, poor nutrition).

Sounds like this family was dysfunctional in many ways.

Too bad the child was treated this way. The parents sound like they need assessment and intervention of some kind.

--------
Parents & Pills to sedate kids...

When i was younger, my family got a foster daughter (4 yo) for 9 months. e.g. Our family was me (12), my mom, little bro (4 yo).

As a foster parent, a lot of the details of the bad stuff that's happened to the kid comes out in day to day life. (Have to report it to the Children's Aid Workers for the file/court cases.)

For example, we had a nice "Nanny" (an older lady who babysat some evenings). She used to bring us cans of Coke and a bag of Oreos each time she babysat us.

Our foster daughter said "aren't you gonna put Aspirins in my coke? My Mommy used to do that". [e.g. the biological mother likely gave her sedating pills into her pop to get the kid to sleep, i guess.] We also had to report what she told us [verbally & in sexual/behavioural aggression] about trauma, involving the Mom's creepy boyfriend's. To this day, we still see the Mom's and Aunt's names in the news for cocaine and theft and prostitution arrests.

The hardest day was when we could not adopt her and had to give her to one of her slightly more stable Aunts. :( Heartbreaking.

Some crazy stuff goes on in the world. (I wish kids actually had rights in this world...)

N.B. The "lung" and breating problems in this case (gurgling) sounds like heart failure. Fluid/blood backs up into the lungs via the pulmonary artery/vein/whatever. (Like Congestive Heart Failure.)

~boots~
02-08-07, 09:06 PM
sad..so sad..

Scattered
02-09-07, 01:14 AM
sad..so sad..I sure wish we were doing a better job of making a safe world for our kids.:(

Crazygirl79
02-09-07, 02:05 AM
My sentiments exactly Tracy...maybe they should be more careful who they give that kinda medication to.

Butch
02-09-07, 02:33 AM
As the father of a 2 1/2 year old baby girl (she's my little princess), this story makes me want to vomit and cry at the same time.:(

I can't imagine medicating a kid even close to that age!

Let kids be kids and leave meds as a last, last resort much, much lator.:mad:

Nova
02-10-07, 12:23 PM
What 'doctor' prescribes Clonidine for a four year old ?

Matt S.
02-10-07, 12:36 PM
That situation has put me in such a PTSD state that I have been obsessing over it and thinking about it constantly, The positive aspect is the awareness that it really exists. My mother is a psychiatrist so expressing that part of my life often was labelled a "manic delusion". My reality bites the big one in the sense of not having a clear picture on appropriate behavior or even how to appropriately behave. My recent doctor said my description of my personal history sounded more like a bunch of case studies and called what I was telling him B.S. And finally I stopped sitting around restlessly waiting for the mood stabilizers to kick in. And accepted the truth.

Scattered
02-10-07, 12:50 PM
That situation has put me in such a PTSD state that I have been obsessing over it and thinking about it constantly, The positive aspect is the awareness that it really exists. My mother is a psychiatrist so expressing that part of my life often was labelled a "manic delusion". My reality bites the big one in the sense of not having a clear picture on appropriate behavior or even how to appropriately behave. My recent doctor said my description of my personal history sounded more like a bunch of case studies and called what I was telling him B.S. And finally I stopped sitting around restlessly waiting for the mood stabilizers to kick in. And accepted the truth.I'm sorry this triggered painful old memories -- I hope things improve soon.

Take care,
Scattered

E-boy
02-12-07, 08:43 PM
Sigh... Dare I wager that nothing remotely resembling a DSM-IV screening occured?

Nova
02-12-07, 09:56 PM
I'm really trying to be 'civil' here...but do 'tell'...how in the *%#& do you do a DSM screening on a 4 year old ????

In fact- how do you do ANY type of 'mental' screening, really, on a child that young ?????

Let alone on a 2 year old, when this psychopath, F-up of a doctor, 'labeled' this child as he did, and her ignorant parents went right along with his *&%$% up 'diagnosis' because they were TOO F-ING self centered to be parents !!!!!!!!!!!

Good.
Now they can continue to be self centered.
They'll be Bubba's playmates in prison.

And if it was up to me, personally, so would that &*&%%% up doctor.

People like that should be mandated to be made sterile.

All of them deserve whatever pain and suffering they continue to go through.

UnleashTheHound
02-13-07, 12:09 AM
I'm really trying to be 'civil' here...but do 'tell'...how in the *%#& do you do a DSM screening on a 4 year old ????

In fact- how do you do ANY type of 'mental' screening, really, on a child that young ?????

Let alone on a 2 year old, when this psychopath, F-up of a doctor, 'labeled' this child as he did, and her ignorant parents went right along with his *&%$% up 'diagnosis' because they were TOO F-ING self centered to be parents !!!!!!!!!!!

I get the impression that the parents may have sought out a doctor specifically to get a desired diagnosis so they could get the meds. Neighbors reported that all there children were so medicated they acted like zombies.

Scattered
02-13-07, 12:18 AM
I was just discussing with my psychologist whether or not my four year old has joined the family in the ADD camp. He said, "I don't like to make a firm diagnosis on someone as young as that". And that is when there is a mother and sister with clear cut cases of ADD. My understanding is that this poor child had a diagnosis at age 2 of bipolar!!! How is the world could you assess that. My psychologist recommended behavioral approaches (and went into detail explaining what and how). I sure wish everyone could find (or was looking for) such good advice!


Scattered

E-boy
02-14-07, 09:14 AM
Good question. One that makes my point even more. My point being that without a proper diagnosis one should be VERY careful about medicating. If one can't preform proper diagnostics one should be just a wee bit cautious wouldn't you think? I don't know about you, but I'd be loathe to play pin the tail on the toddler if I was in the dark about what was really going on.


I'm really trying to be 'civil' here...but do 'tell'...how in the *%#& do you do a DSM screening on a 4 year old ????

In fact- how do you do ANY type of 'mental' screening, really, on a child that young ?????

Let alone on a 2 year old, when this psychopath, F-up of a doctor, 'labeled' this child as he did, and her ignorant parents went right along with his *&%$% up 'diagnosis' because they were TOO F-ING self centered to be parents !!!!!!!!!!!

Good.
Now they can continue to be self centered.
They'll be Bubba's playmates in prison.

And if it was up to me, personally, so would that &*&%%% up doctor.

People like that should be mandated to be made sterile.

All of them deserve whatever pain and suffering they continue to go through.

~boots~
02-14-07, 09:17 AM
I'm really trying to be 'civil' here...but do 'tell'...how in the *%#& do you do a DSM screening on a 4 year old ????

In fact- how do you do ANY type of 'mental' screening, really, on a child that young ?????

Let alone on a 2 year old, when this psychopath, F-up of a doctor, 'labeled' this child as he did, and her ignorant parents went right along with his *&%$% up 'diagnosis' because they were TOO F-ING self centered to be parents !!!!!!!!!!!

Good.
Now they can continue to be self centered.
They'll be Bubba's playmates in prison.

And if it was up to me, personally, so would that &*&%%% up doctor.

People like that should be mandated to be made sterile.

All of them deserve whatever pain and suffering they continue to go through.true true NOVA.. I was an angel at 4...and look what happend to me :faint: I am sure a LOT of us would NOT have "qualified for diagnosis" at that age...that is rediculous...4, I mean, for goodness sakes..what 4 year old is NOT like that??

Scattered
02-14-07, 12:22 PM
true true NOVA.. I was an angel at 4...and look what happend to me :faint: I am sure a LOT of us would NOT have "qualified for diagnosis" at that age...that is rediculous...4, I mean, for goodness sakes..what 4 year old is NOT like that??I did, I did! Actually, my pediatrician tried very hard to get my parents to give me Ritalin when I was four -- they researched it and decided they'd just tough it out and wait for me to grow out of it! (They're still waiting!:p ).

Scattered

PS: I'm very glad they made the decision they did.

PS2: Even when the diagnosis is right, we really don't know what these medications do to very young brains that are developing at such a rapid pace. Even a lot of kids over the counter medications aren't suppose to be given to kids until they're older!

E-boy
02-14-07, 12:34 PM
I'm really trying to be 'civil' here...but do 'tell'...how in the *%#& do you do a DSM screening on a 4 year old ????

In fact- how do you do ANY type of 'mental' screening, really, on a child that young ?????

Let alone on a 2 year old, when this psychopath, F-up of a doctor, 'labeled' this child as he did, and her ignorant parents went right along with his *&%$% up 'diagnosis' because they were TOO F-ING self centered to be parents !!!!!!!!!!!

Good.
Now they can continue to be self centered.
They'll be Bubba's playmates in prison.

And if it was up to me, personally, so would that &*&%%% up doctor.

People like that should be mandated to be made sterile.

All of them deserve whatever pain and suffering they continue to go through.


Just so you know Nova, you were quite civil enough. LOL! I wasn't offended. You made a good point, and I should have clarified mine more. Sometimes even when I write parts of what I'm getting at stay in my head.

Typically kids are at around fourth or fifth grade in school before ADD/ADHD begins creating performance problems. Of course, not all ADDers have sholastic issues (If the negative impacts occur in at least two major areas of life the diagnosis sticks under current criteria, so acedemic problems aren't necessary to get diagnosed, just common). There is little or no point in even attempting to evaluate a child that age, and I agree with you that there was an agenda at work here that got put before the child's welfare. Even if there was evidence that this child MIGHT have ADD, at that age even with Severe ADD it should be manageable even with regular parenting skills. If not then there are behavioral therapies available even for children that young. To me that's about the only approach that makes sense if it's the child's welfare one is actually interested in. I simply don't see any benefit to medicating a child when you can't even perform the appropriate diagnostic procedures to verify what it is that's being medicated. That sounds an awful lot like half baked guessing to me, and that's not what one does when health issues are at stake.

Which brings me right back to my original point. A doctor that knew what he was doing would have realized that a proper diagnosis isn't possible without a screening, and if the child is too young for a reliable screening, then other approaches might be necessary. Heck if you don't know what you're doing, write the patient a referal to someone who does!

Nova
02-15-07, 02:07 PM
Clonidine is prescribed 'normally' for controlling one's BLOOD PRESSURE.

Personally, I don't know any child of four years of age, (or less) that has physical issues with their blood pressure, that would have a need for being prescribed Clonidine.

That's why assuming a med that would work on a 'grown up', will work the same way on a child of four years of age- and then assuming that it will also work for another medical purpose, is unethical.

But psychopathological 'doctors' are known for being unethical.

The word 'doctor' is not my word of choice, by the way.

I'm only using it out of respect for the Admins and Mods on this forum, but that is the ONLY reason.
If it was up to me, I would use a very descriptive swear word, for this 'non human', who prescribed this medication.

Nova
02-15-07, 02:16 PM
This story, has more to do with other factors than ADD/HD....ADD/HD is a minor 'point' in this story, IMO.

It has everything to do with parents who do NOT want the responsibility of taking care of their children, who have other agendas/priorities...and their children are 'getting in the way' of success in these self-serving agendas.

It also has everything to do with unethical doctors.

I've personally seen these 'stories' countless times, and the end result is they're usually 'forgotten', because they're not 'sensational' enough.

Swede63
02-15-07, 02:44 PM
Click on the link below. This is the latest news on the Rebbeca Riley case from today's Boston Globe. Debates over labeling very young children bipolar.

http://tinyurl.com/2t6q45

Nova
02-15-07, 02:50 PM
Ask most of Joe Public how they define 'Bipolar' thanks to the media, and others who keep perpetuating the 'negative stigmata', and most will tell you 'someone who's capable of committing murder'.

So I'm confident this 'story' will confuse the hades out of Joe Public.

E-boy
02-15-07, 04:34 PM
The primary use for a drug often isnt even the most common. Off lable medication use, is common. I've been on multiple anti-convulsants because they are used off lable. This isn't a rarity, it's pretty much standard practice.

Some medications that are used for blood pressure, have been used to effectively treat ADD.

Clonidine, is, if memory serves, often used off lable to treat anxiety, as well.



Clonidine is prescribed 'normally' for controlling one's BLOOD PRESSURE.

Personally, I don't know any child of four years of age, (or less) that has physical issues with their blood pressure, that would have a need for being prescribed Clonidine.

That's why assuming a med that would work on a 'grown up', will work the same way on a child of four years of age- and then assuming that it will also work for another medical purpose, is unethical.

But psychopathological 'doctors' are known for being unethical.

The word 'doctor' is not my word of choice, by the way.

I'm only using it out of respect for the Admins and Mods on this forum, but that is the ONLY reason.
If it was up to me, I would use a very descriptive swear word, for this 'non human', who prescribed this medication.

E-boy
02-15-07, 04:48 PM
This story, has more to do with other factors than ADD/HD....ADD/HD is a minor 'point' in this story, IMO.

It has everything to do with parents who do NOT want the responsibility of taking care of their children, who have other agendas/priorities...and their children are 'getting in the way' of success in these self-serving agendas.

It also has everything to do with unethical doctors.

I've personally seen these 'stories' countless times, and the end result is they're usually 'forgotten', because they're not 'sensational' enough.

Well I used ADD examples and illustrations in my discussion primarily because people here are familiar with it. The majority of my discussion was proper use of established diagnostic criteria, and proper responses in situations where they can't be brought to bear. The criteria and procedures recommended are in the DSM-IV. The DSM-IV is not just about ADD. Its about mental illness.

I'm not sure if your post was addressing what I said or a general comment, so me defending my point may well be moot.

So, I'll just summarize one more time. It doesn't matter whether the problem is a disorder, or crap parents. Doctors do have a responsibility as service providers to listen to patients or the patient's guardians, but they also have a responsibility to follow established procedure and not let the patient (or the patient's parents) be the clinicians. If DSM-IV had been utilized (and frankly not using it when appropriate should constitute malpractice), or at least not utilized when and if they realized the criteria were inappropriate for a four year, in which case common sense would indicate a cautious wait and see approach then parents and teachers wouldn't be able to get diagnosis and medication on demand, rather than when appropriate. It's for very similar reasons that we have so many anti-biotic resistant super bugs now. Doctors placating patients and proscribing unnecessary and ineffective anti-biotics to patients with viral infections.

Being stricter with responsibilities and procedures for clinicians won't fix bad parents but it will make it difficult for Doctors to even unwittingly abdicate their clinical judgement and responsibility or placate patients with treatments of dubious effectiveness.

To me there are two problems here. One is physicians making clinical decisions in a specialty they don't have (to placate the patient, just like with anti-biotics).

The other is with the current public mentality, that undesirable behavior of any kind should be treated with a pill and the flip side of that, that because so many people do the above that none of these disorders is "real".

The first is the easiest to address, because there are already regulatory bodies in place that can do something about it.

The second is harder to deal with because the only way to fight it is education.

Scattered
02-15-07, 05:31 PM
Well I used ADD examples and illustrations in my discussion primarily because people here are familiar with it. The majority of my discussion was proper use of established diagnostic criteria, and proper responses in situations where they can't be brought to bear. The criteria and procedures recommended are in the DSM-IV. The DSM-IV is not just about ADD. Its about mental illness.

I'm not sure if your post was addressing what I said or a general comment, so me defending my point may well be moot.

So, I'll just summarize one more time. It doesn't matter whether the problem is a disorder, or crap parents. Doctors do have a responsibility as service providers to listen to patients or the patient's guardians, but they also have a responsibility to follow established procedure and not let the patient (or the patient's parents) be the clinicians. If DSM-IV had been utilized (and frankly not using it when appropriate should constitute malpractice), or at least not utilized when and if they realized the criteria were inappropriate for a four year, in which case common sense would indicate a cautious wait and see approach then parents and teachers wouldn't be able to get diagnosis and medication on demand, rather than when appropriate. It's for very similar reasons that we have so many anti-biotic resistant super bugs now. Doctors placating patients and proscribing unnecessary and ineffective anti-biotics to patients with viral infections.

Being stricter with responsibilities and procedures for clinicians won't fix bad parents but it will make it difficult for Doctors to even unwittingly abdicate their clinical judgement and responsibility or placate patients with treatments of dubious effectiveness.

To me there are two problems here. One is physicians making clinical decisions in a specialty they don't have (to placate the patient, just like with anti-biotics).

The other is with the current public mentality, that undesirable behavior of any kind should be treated with a pill and the flip side of that, that because so many people do the above that none of these disorders is "real".

The first is the easiest to address, because there are already regulatory bodies in place that can do something about it.

The second is harder to deal with because the only way to fight it is education.Excellent post, E-boy!!!

Nova
02-15-07, 08:46 PM
The DSM doesn't fix 'bad'.
Parents (guardians), doctors, patients, or medical insurance practice.

It doesn't even assume responsibility for its own 'mistakes', when they occur within it.

I don't hold that book as gospel, but feel free to do so, at your own free will.

But my point it 'moot' also.
As much as this soon to be forgotten 'child', in this story.

dormammau2008
02-15-07, 08:55 PM
I Ages Nova

Dorm

Nova
02-15-07, 09:25 PM
See..
When they bring 'that' up in a US criminal court of law (since I'm talking about this story), the ADA's going to state that Clonidine was prescribed, for a child of four years old, to reduce 'hyperactivity'..and that it is a medication that is normally prescribed to control blood pressure.

They are also going to bring up how a child of four years old, can not take into consideration, the side effect of any medications that they ingest, as adults are capable of doing so...so while an adult may 'ingest' medication for something 'other' than its intended 'creation'...that concept sometimes 'backfires', as proven in many cases. (I'm not talking about this case, either).

TygerSan
02-16-07, 11:18 AM
This to me is a picture perfect example of what is wrong with psychiatric care in this country!

You have the parents who -intentionally or unintentionally- overmedicated the child with drugs which were legally prescribed. You have the psychiatrist who, if you read one of the news reports, had resorted to writing 10 day prescriptions for clonodine because the meds had a habit of disappearing early, the mother's excuse being she "lost" them. Granted, the mother and father seem to have issues of their own (which can, in certain instances, lead to earlier diagnosis in the kid, especially of bipolar type illness), but how do you distinguish the difference between 2-year-old behaviour and bipolarity???

I don't know about this specific case, but I can tell you that some of the HMO's around have fairly crappy mental health care. I was originally diagnosed as ADHD via a 10 minute screening questionnaire and 20 minutes of interview (being in the field myself, I was indeed expecting at least a follow up visit before I got offered a prescription). Any symptoms I then brought up were met with a suggestion of an add-on drug, which I politely refused.

Psychiatrists aren't research scientists either, and they are required to be knowledgable about a wide variety of drugs used to treat a wide variety of symptoms/disorders, and so I think ; there were times when I think I knew more about the mechanism of action of drugs than she did. They also sometimes seemed conditioned to think symptom-pill pairing rather than treating the patient (which I'm guessing might happen if you're required to see a large number of patients a day).

I guess my point (if there is one beyond ranting and rambling) is that 1) You know your body and you should have a good enough relationship with any doctor to have a conversation about treatment. It should be a collaboration between what you report and his/her expertise. This also goes for your kid. Mommy instinct is something that should be listened to! Ego shouldn't fit into the equation.

E-boy
02-20-07, 04:18 PM
Well said Nova. :-) I don't take any science as gospel. That would defeat the entire purpose of the endeavor. However, having said that the DSM criteria were established with the best available information at that time. They are getting ready to update it, and journals and other publications have kept a running critique on it up in the face of new information and new studies.

So, while it may not be 100% right and reliable, or in anyway the final word, it is a very well informed word, particularly for those in the field who keep up on the changes.

Doctors and scientists aren't always right, but they are generally the first to learn about where they are mistaken and usually not shy about saying it




The DSM doesn't fix 'bad'.
Parents (guardians), doctors, patients, or medical insurance practice.

It doesn't even assume responsibility for its own 'mistakes', when they occur within it.

I don't hold that book as gospel, but feel free to do so, at your own free will.

But my point it 'moot' also.
As much as this soon to be forgotten 'child', in this story.

Nova
02-20-07, 07:39 PM
I'm not making any more comments, on this thread.

I have previously declared my unwaivering, and passionate statements, regarding the parties, and factors involved with this specific case.

From this point forward, I, personally, will not reduce this little girl's memory, by continuing to talk about trivial topics, on this thread.

Please respect my wishes.

Thank you.

Nova



Well said Nova. :-) I don't take any science as gospel. That would defeat the entire purpose of the endeavor. However, having said that the DSM criteria were established with the best available information at that time. They are getting ready to update it, and journals and other publications have kept a running critique on it up in the face of new information and new studies.

So, while it may not be 100% right and reliable, or in anyway the final word, it is a very well informed word, particularly for those in the field who keep up on the changes.

Doctors and scientists aren't always right, but they are generally the first to learn about where they are mistaken and usually not shy about saying it

Scattered
02-22-07, 10:32 PM
I just came upon this in another thread -- I thought it applied here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/23/h...ssyahoo&emc=rss (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/23/health/23kids.html?ex=1321938000&en=f17661962d8101f2&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss)

The above is an article I found interesting on the safety and effectivness (or lack thereof) of combinations of medications for children. They state a real shortage of research backing up the effectiveness of such combinations.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">The first psychiatric problem diagnosed in most children is attention deficit disorder, treated with stimulants — drugs that improve attentiveness. But when children’s problems persist, parents’ relatively good experience with stimulants often convinces them to agree to try other medicines — in some cases drugs like the antipsychotic Risperdal or the anticonvulsant Depakote that have few proven benefits in children and greater dangers, said Dr. Ranga Krishnan, chairman of the department of psychiatry and behavioral science at Duke University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/d/duke_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org).

“After you get them on one drug, parents don’t seem to mind the second,” said Dr. Krishnan, who said that he had grave doubts about the growing use of psychiatric drug cocktails in children. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Many psychiatrists and parents believe that such drug combinations, often referred to as drug cocktails, help. But there is virtually no scientific evidence to justify this multiplication of pills, researchers say. A few studies have shown that a combination of two drugs can be helpful in adult patients, but the evidence in children is scant. And there is no evidence at all — “zero,” “zip,” “nil,” experts said — that combining three or more drugs is appropriate or even effective in children or adults.

“There are not any good scientific data to support the widespread use of these medicines in children, particularly in young children where the scientific data are even more scarce,” said Dr. Thomas R. Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Anyway -- I wish more people were listening to what Dr. Insel (director of the NIMH) said about these drugs and young kids.

Scattered