http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19325876.600-tackling-depression-with-ketamine.html


20 January 2007
New Scientist (2587: 38-41, 2007)
Maia Szalavitz


"FOR MANY, it was a huge, obvious effect," says psychiatrist John Krystal. "One of the patients said, 'Don't give me those old medications, I want this again'."

Krystal, a professor at Yale University, is talking about the time he gave seven severely depressed patients ketamine, a mind-blowing drug developed as an anaesthetic but better known as a club drug. It was a long shot, but the results were astonishing. Though most of the patients found the ketamine experience itself unpleasant, once it wore off they had a far better feeling: the disabling and suicidal depression they had lived with for years had vanished.

Krystal's pioneering experiment happened in the late 1990s, but now researchers at the US National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) in Bethesda, Maryland, have repeated the study and the results have got psychiatrists, neuroscientists and drug companies buzzing. An antidepressant that acts in hours rather than weeks would transform the treatment of depression, make a lot of money and change the way we understand the disease.

It's not just depression. Other studies suggest that ketamine might act with similar speed to help addiction, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and certain chronic pain conditions. Ketamine, researchers increasingly believe, may be a "reset button" for brains stuck in dysfunctional ruts.

Depression affects over 120 million people worldwide, making it the fourth largest contributor to the global burden of disease, according to the World Health Organization. At some point in their lives 13 per cent of Americans experience major depression, and globally 850,000 depressed people kill themselves every year.

Treatments are available, but they are slow to kick in and help only about 80 per cent of patients. Drugs such as Prozac and Lustral take between 10 days and six weeks to work; even electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), the fastest-acting treatment, takes at least a week. For 70 per cent of patients the first thing they try does not help. This means that many spend months trying different drugs before finding one that works for them - if they ever do.

That's why the ketamine results are creating such a stir. "This is a hot topic and people are very interested in it," says Lisa Monteggia, a neuroscientist specialising in depression at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. "The implications are huge." "It's very intriguing," agrees Lee Schechter, director of preclinical depression and anxiety research at Wyeth Pharmaceuticals in Princeton, New Jersey. Research on rapid antidepressants is now "an area of focus within the industry," he says.

The possibility that ketamine could lift depression was first mooted in the late 1990s, when Krystal and his colleagues were studying the drug as a way of understanding schizophrenia. Ketamine is classed as a "dissociative" because it produces feelings of disconnection from one's self and reality which are similar to some of the symptoms of schizophrenia; very high doses elicit complete depersonalisation and profoundly altered perception. Some have described this "k-hole" as similar to an out-of-body experience.

In the course of his work, Krystal had come across case reports from the 1950s and 1960s suggesting that depressed tuberculosis patients given a TB drug with pharmacological similarities to ketamine sometimes reported rapid release from their depression. He also found research showing that some existing antidepressants worked in a similar way.

Krystal's group put two and two together and decided to give ketamine a try as an antidepressant. They recruited seven patients with treatment-resistant depression - defined as disease so severe that two or more medications have failed - and gave each of them an infusion of either ketamine or a placebo. A week later the subjects were "crossed over" so those who had received ketamine got the placebo and vice versa.

The results, published in 2000, were dramatic: within three days of receiving the ketamine all seven had improved, some profoundly, and they remained so for at least a week. The placebo had little effect (Biological Psychiatry, vol 47, p 351).

Shortly after that experiment, Krystal's colleague Dennis Charney left Yale for NIMH, taking the depression work with him. Last year he and Carlos Zarate, head of the mood disorders research unit, published the results of a larger follow-up study (Archives of General Psychiatry, vol 63, p 856).

Zarate's results were not quite as dramatic as Krystal's but were impressive nevertheless. His team recruited 17 people who on average had failed to get relief from six different drugs; four had even tried ECT, the treatment of last resort. Of the 17, 12 experienced a strong antidepressant response within hours of receiving ketamine, and for six patients the response lasted a week or more. As Zarate describes it, the subjects reported that their depression "lifted".

Zarate's results make all the difference, Krystal says. "Replication is everything. One exciting finding is a footnote but a replication makes it much more interesting, particularly by a different group. It has opened up discussion about rapid-acting antidepressants."

As both researchers point out, the volunteers didn't feel better because they were on a "high" similar to a cocaine buzz, which some depressed people use to lift their mood. "I would really contrast ketamine's effects on depression to those of cocaine," says Krystal. "The hallmark of drugs of abuse is a transient euphoria followed by persistent dysphoria - the cocaine crash. Ketamine is fundamentally different. There may be brief euphoric effects but when those symptoms go away, instead of being dysphoric or hung-over, what we and Dr Zarate's group saw was remarkable."

Still, ketamine has a long way to go before it can prove itself as an antidepressant. Both Krystal and Zarate restricted their patients to a single infusion, so it remains unclear whether a second dose of ketamine would work; equally unclear is whether ketamine would carry on relieving depression if given regularly, or whether this would even be practical given the side effects and cost.

One intriguing possibility is that a single dose of ketamine might allow regular drugs to succeed where they have previously failed. After the trial, Zarate found that some of the volunteers responded better than expected to conventional antidepressants, suggesting that the ketamine had somehow cleared the way, or sensitised them to drugs they were previously immune to. Zarate's group is planning a second, larger trial, and he says there is "more interest than I could have imagined" in additional work.

Even if ketamine doesn't make it as an antidepressant in its own right, the trials make it clear that depression medications do not have to take weeks or months to start working - an excruciating time lag that can push patients already on the brink of suicide over the edge. The ketamine research suggests that it should be possible to develop other fast-acting antidepressants, as well as hinting that today's theories of depression are not the whole story.

Brain shrinkage

The existence of the therapeutic time lag has long been seen as a critical part of an elegant theory of depression that has been coming together since the late 1990s. Before then, researchers saw depression as a result of a deficit in certain neurotransmitters, principally serotonin. That made sense when it turned out that drugs like Prozac, which raise serotonin levels, were effective antidepressants. However, medications that worked on other neurotransmitters often also worked and, most damagingly to this idea, even though drugs could change levels of their target neurotransmitter within hours, they still took weeks to elevate mood.

Enter the neurotrophic theory. Put simply, the idea is that extreme or prolonged stress can cause depression by damaging nerve cells in certain brain regions, particularly an area important for storing and consolidating memories called the hippocampus. Brain scans and autopsies find shrinkage in this area in depressed people.

There's even research suggesting exactly how stress could cause this damage. Under stress, the brain releases an excess of the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate. Too much glutamate can damage or kill cells, a process known as excitotoxicity. The hippocampus is especially vulnerable.

So stress leads to nerve damage, which causes depression. Further evidence is that every drug known to help lift depression also seems to induce higher levels of peptides that encourage nerve growth, most notably BDNF, or brain-derived neurotrophic factor. This helps to repair injured cells and promotes the growth of new ones. Nerves take time to grow, though, hence the delay.

Ketamine, of course, isn't likely to be busy restoring or replacing damaged cells, so what is it doing? No one really knows, but there are some plausible ideas. Ketamine is known to work by blocking a glutamate receptor called the NMDA receptor, preventing glutamate from transmitting its message across the synapse. Faulty NMDA receptor function has recently been implicated in depression, and repeated doses of conventional antidepressants have been shown to slowly correct it in animal models. Perhaps ketamine does the job in one fell swoop. "One way of thinking about it is that the ketamine has reset the normal activity that was disturbed," says Monteggia. In other words, briefly blocking NMDA receptors with ketamine somehow reboots the system.


Ketamine somehow reboots the brain

The reboot idea isn't the only possibility. Ketamine activates another glutamate receptor, known as AMPA, and this has been found to have antidepressant effects in animals; what is more, forthcoming research from NIMH appears to show that preventing AMPA activation blocks ketamine's antidepressant effect. Another possibility is that ketamine works by directly increasing levels of BDNF. That wouldn't account for ketamine's rapid action, of course, but it's possible that BDNF may act not just as a growth factor but as a neurotransmitter too. Some animal studies have found that infusing BDNF into the brain reverses depression-like symptoms in three days

Whatever the mechanism, most researchers in the area think it should be possible to produce a drug that selectively blocks the NMDA receptor without inducing ketamine-like hallucinations. In fact, at least one such drug already exists, developed by Merck and as yet unnamed. "In initial studies, we didn't see depersonalisation and psychosis-like side effects," says Husseini Manji of NIMH, which is collaborating with Merck to determine whether the compound works as an antidepressant.

Krystal isn't sure such drugs will do the trick. It is possible, he says, that ketamine's bizarre effects are an integral part of the process and not side effects that should be eliminated.

Other approaches to rapidly reversing depression are also attracting attention. Researchers at NIMH recently published a pilot study showing that scopolamine, which is normally used to treat motion sickness, appears to lift depression in three days (Archives of General Psychiatry, vol 63, p 1121).

Ketamine research - particularly the idea that manipulating NMDA receptors might reboot aberrant brain activity - also holds promise for chronic pain, addiction and post-traumatic stress disorder. While these are diverse conditions, researchers believe they may all be connected with abnormalities of the NMDA receptor, which is involved with learning and memory, or "neuroplasticity". In each case the brain may have learned a harmful pattern of responses "too well" and now cannot break free from it.

Addiction and pain

"The idea is that the [glutamate system] is very important to many forms of neuroplasticity. Many people are very interested in the idea of manipulating it so that acute stress doesn't produce chronic problems," says Krystal.

Take addiction, for example. Researchers know that one NMDA blocker, the herbal hallucinogen ibogaine, can help heroin addicts break their habit. Ketamine is a more potent NMDA blocker and seems to have similar effects in rat and human studies. Meanwhile, a group led by Evgeny Krupitsky at the Pavlov State Medical University of Saint Petersburg in Russia is studying ketamine as a treatment for alcoholism. Another illness in which memories seem to trap the brain in a dysfunctional rut is post-traumatic stress disorder. Ketamine may help, though nobody has tried it yet.

The drug may also be useful for treating some forms of chronic pain. Over the past few years neurologist Robert Schwartzman of Drexel University College of Medicine in Philadelphia and colleagues at the University of Tübingen in Germany have used ketamine to treat 41 patients with reflex sympathetic dystrophy (RSD). This is a rare, disabling pain disorder in which ordinary sensations such as touch, warmth and coolness are perceived as painful and minor knocks are agonising. RSD is associated with nerve injuries, after accidents or surgery, for example.

Schwartzman's methods are not for the faint-hearted. He gives RSD sufferers doses of ketamine high enough to put them in a coma for five days, accompanied by anti-anxiety medications to reduce the nightmare of the k-hole. But for many, the results are worth it. In 14 cases out of 41, according to Schwartzman, patients were completely cured. "We haven't cured the original injury," he says, "but we have cured the RSD or kept it in remission. The RSD pain is gone."

"No one ever cured it before," he adds. "In 40 years, I have never seen anything like it. These are people who were disabled and in horrible pain. Most were completely incapacitated. They go back to work, back to school, and are doing everything they used to do. Most are on no medications at all. I have taken morphine pumps out of people. You turn off the pain and reset the whole system."


“In 40 years, I have never seen anything like it”

Results with six of these people have been presented at a meeting, and other peer-reviewed research by Schwartzman has shown that ketamine can help RSD pain, but the ketamine coma approach has yet to be subjected to a proper trial. The German group continues to offer the procedure and US researchers, including Schwartzman, are also collaborating with a research group in Mexico.

Realistically, with these complex and chronic conditions, it is unlikely that a one-time treatment will be a complete cure: with addiction, depression and RSD, it is already clear that many people either do not respond or relapse at some point after ketamine therapy. But understanding how the NMDA and glutamate systems drive memory and create responses that are resistant to change could offer insights well beyond these conditions in which the brain has got stuck in a rut and needs a reboot. Ketamine's mind-altering properties may be far more useful than any clubber ever imagined.This could also mean that dextromethorphan another NMDA antagonist could potentially have the same efffect. Im sure someone will understand what im getting at (ill give you a hint its legal and available everywhere).

hmmm... :-)
->-

http://www.sci.sdsu.edu/~smaloy/MicrobialGenetics/topics/mutations/aminoacids.JPG
->-
2 amino acids are negative hydrophilic

~noting~

__________________
<!-- / message -->... <!-- sig -->
{{{.}}}||||||{{{.}}}
__________________...
<!-- / sig --><!-- controls -->
->-simplified->-

2 amino acids are negative hydrophilic - *WATER soluble*
->-
aspartic acid
glutamic acid

aspartic acid, glutamic acid
->-
neurotransmitters
->-
{}{} ->- {{}}


aspartic acid, glutamic acid
->-
neurotransmitters
->-

~1~
Under stress, the brain releases an excess of the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate. Too much glutamate can damage or kill cells, a process known as excitotoxicity. The hippocampus is especially vulnerable.
~2~
Ketamine is known to work by blocking a glutamate receptor called the NMDA receptor,
NMDA == N-methyl D-aspartic acid
preventing glutamate from transmitting its message across the synapse.

dextromethorphan - NMDA antagonistdextromethorphan {wikiP}
->-
{source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextromethorphan)} ->- Dextromethorphan is structurally related to levorphanol, a narcotic (opioid) analgesic ...
{ADDF (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=333212&postcount=128)}
endocrinology
->
neuro
->
psych

Evolutionary pattern encompassing eg POMC

endocrinology [protection from UV] ... the MSHs [melanocyte stimulating hormone]
->
neuro [co-ordination of feeding within the brain] ... the melanocortins ... the major players in food intake regulation e.g. MC4r
->
psych e.g. endorphins

Is this the angle ... if so? which of the many psychoneuroendocrine molecules ... as mentioned - I'm a huge fan of the POMC (pro-opiomelanocortin) and tyrosine line (thyroid hormone [also dopamine n/t]) ... ... ... or perhaps we need to put your ideas on steroids ...?...
eg (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/c/c8/700px-PKU_Adrenaline.PNG)
-------------------------------------------------------
~unwoven~
-------------------------------------------------------
tyrosine
L-DOPA
dopamine
norepinephrine/NA
adrenaline
-------------------------------------------------------
~rewoven~
-------------------------------------------------------

... the
... rainbow

{{{.}}}||||||{{{.}}}

->- simplified to ->-

{}{}

->-

chiral
enantiomers

:-)

Emergence requires chiral enantiomeric forms.

...Hmmm...

wikiP Enantiomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiomer)
->-
There are several conventions used for naming chiral compounds,
all displayed as a prefix before the chemical name of the substance:

( + ) - vs. ( - ) -
->- based on the substance's ability to rotate polarized light.
<small>
D</small>- vs. L-
->- based on the actual geometry of each enantiomer, with the version synthesized from naturally occurring (+)-glyceraldehyde being considered the D - form.

(R)- vs. (S)-
->- based on the actual geometry of each enantiomer, The (+)- vs. (−)- convention is the only one based on optical properties.
The other two conventions are based on the actual geometry of each enantiomer.
There is no correspondence between any convention.
In nature, many chiral substances are only produced in one optical form, while (most) man-made chiral substances are racemic mixtures.
The purity of enantiomers can be determined by optical rotation.

post = #5 (this thread)
Emergence requires

---may occur with combination of ---

post = #6 (this thread)
<small>D</small>- vs. L-

post = #4 (this thread)
{{{chiral}}}||||||{{{ enantiomers}}}

1 + 1 == more than 2
http://www.addforums.com/forums/image.php?u=2612&dateline=1169843398
post = #3 (this thread)
L-DOPA
post = #1,2 (this thread)
<small>D</small>-ASPARTIC ACID

post = #6 (this thread)
<small>D</small>- vs. L-
~aka~
L- vs. <small>D</small>-

---may give way to---

post = #5 (this thread)
Emergence

---whereby the---

post = #4 (this thread)
1 + 1 ==emergent phenomenon

---of---

post = #1,2,3 (this thread)
L-DOPA (line of adrenaline)
<small>D</small>-ASPARTIC ACID (line of melanin)

omg!!!
(adrenaline) + (melanin)
are both in the line of tyrosine

omg!!! omg!!!
melanin
-<- {dark.light} == UV activation,sensitive

omg!!! omg!!! omg!!!
epinephrine,adrenaline
-<- {light} == V activation,sensitive

- the Holey Trinity -
... :-) ... ->- MonikarR, avartarRrR and signatcharRrRrR

~gives way to~
Ahhh!
more than 2

where more than 2 =>=
Ahhh!

... hmmm ...
:-)

... where more than 2 is ...?...?...?...?...

Once upon a time
A long long time ago
In a Land far Distant
There lived a man

A man - he tried as hard
As he could - he needed to
know why
~he should~

He should try and work harder,
He should try and be good
He should try and be respected
But try as hard as he could

He couldn't see why

Backwards - we've looked,
the past - our measure

Precedent perspective past

... so ...
... the past was good

->- *Was* -<-
good,
even better though ...
... it should be understood
(the future)

Kinda' obvious
Flip the hood

Desires from the past
Legacies

We were driven to satisfy
Misunderstood

Mind misunderstood
Flip the hood

Mechanistic workings
Cogs turning

It should be understood

We understand
It must be understood

Awakening to the other perspective
Looking ahead now
Not behind

~good~

... So ...

Kinda' obvious -
We flip the hood
Mind misunderstood
not good
- looking backwards - not forwards -

We flip the hood
Mechanistic workings
Cogs turning
Delicate, clockwork, magical, fascinating ~yes~
Magic ~no~
formerly misunderstood

Formally misunderstood
Kinda' obvious -
we've flipped ->- the hood
mind understood

data driven architecture
is all
emergent phenomena
our all
evolution has it
physics and metaphysics together
~good~

but more than 2?
==
rrreality

an instantiation
of
RRReality

... the answer to the question -
bell jar ~yes~
but an instantiation of RRReality
:-) Ahhh!!!
~good~

inferences possible
rrr =/NE/= RRR
RRR exists
Ascent of man ensured
Everything changes -

smile

... it's all good ...

which just leaves
the thingy which we've inadvertently understood
that thing upon whom we've just flipped the hood
a comedy anthropomorphism
which we've needed to understand
~understood~

That thing ...

... well 'keep it down' guys
- I mean
g-g-g---u-u-u---y-y-y---s-s-s

'Do you mind?'

:-)
Ahhh! silence ...
~good~

That thing ...
'geeze'
forgotten
Ahhh!!!
{{{ADD}}}

(formerly (also) formally (also) misunderstood)

~PentaRiboHexaDeoxyRiboNucleotideEmerges~

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/sb_camsci/pentaRibohexaDeoxy_Emergence.gif

nor adrenaline
methyl aspartic
methylation -<- epigenetics

chiral
.->-
..!
-C-
..!

carbon based

H He Li Be B C
1..2...3..4...5..6

H -<- emergent structure
physics/chemistry

H->-1 proton
6 protons ->- {3}{3} ->- C == 4
[C-C] ->- 13
[C-C]->-1
[C-C] [C-C] [C-C] ->- C6
C6H12,3 double bonds
electron cloud ->- benzene ring ->-
tyrosine
->- adrenaline

adenine == 6C(5Cpentagram transition) ->- DNA

steroid -- 6C6C 6C(5Cpentagram transition) ->- hormones
6C = 1 so C6-C6 ->- 4

->- ?HEME? ->-
->- ?CYTOCHROME? ->-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrin
Porphyrin
The macrocycle has 22 pi electrons, 18 of which are active in the conjugated system
benzene ring ->- 3

3 x 6 == 18

K,
reset and stay?
no way?

UK,
listening all day,
hearing my soul you may,
_____ _ _ ______ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _
SB,
omg!!!
(adrenaline) + (melanin)
are both in the line of tyrosine

omg!!! omg!!!
melanin
-<- {dark.light} == UV activation,sensitive

omg!!! omg!!! omg!!!
epinephrine,adrenaline
-<- {light} == V activation,sensitive

- the Holey Trinity -
... :-) ... ->- MonikarR, avartarRrR and signatcharRrRrR
______________________________________

slap in the face it's a mirror image!
rhyme makes for everyone,
rhyme itself is a significance of usage

ketamine came as light,
as the animal parade comes into sight,

relief with another quote,
realistically, with these complex and chronic conditions, it is unlikely that a one-time treatment will be a complete cure: with addiction, depression and RSD, it is already clear that many people either do not respond or relapse at some point after ketamine therapy. But understanding how the NMDA and glutamate systems drive memory and create responses that are resistant to change could offer insights well beyond these conditions in which the brain has got stuck in a rut and needs a reboot. Ketamine's mind-altering properties may be far more useful than any clubber ever imagined. design of flaw,
noone really foresaw

anyway insights already had,
SB knows the opposite of sad,
everyone is happier and less mad.

the narrator,
this is me or,
both naturally go around,
back to neither, nor.

1 + 1 == more than 2 back around to metaphor,
knoweledge safely roots to grow more,
more than what was B-4.

when an equation of mathematics,
a simple mathematic equation appears > tick tock ticks
at the same time in relation; my friends have fits.

take it in as if you were slow,
post = #6 (this thread)
<small>D</small>- vs. L-brilliant and amazing ur mind,
Jesus said, I AM not one of a kind,
ONE is not to mean only
only,
he subtley,
Jesus subtley,
conveyed he was not implying only,
in the sense of lonely.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/41/Enantiomer.png/300px-Enantiomer.png

macromolecule if not mistaken,
macromolecule(s) excuse me ladies/gentlemen,
and I almost forgot my father's middle name is Ken.

image - gam --- (ie)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gam

hmm... indeed.
verbal (as in to do this or that) from adam's son,
going someplace with new shoes on,
another memorable occashaun.

legs, which is kinda creepppyyyy (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=390100&postcount=148)


imagine if you will with me,
all of what things are not true-lee,
maybe now you are ready,
a mirror,
a sight I had just-so dreamily,
being itself w/o any identity,
according to how it is naturally,
everyone and noone live Here simply,
Now one lets it be and decides to live and let live,
or die

2 things to compare,
illusion of not going-with apparent "others,
i consider quite an easy mistaking of,
Snake for Ladders,

qk

Ketamine becoming legal? Sweet, I've always wanted to try it :) There may be other alternatives for depression, however; a year ago I tried LSD, and since then I've never been the same, my life has been more pleasant and in control than I had ever hoped it would be ( and before then adderall made me miserable, plus a few other depressing mid-teen events). LSD is not for everyone, and rules must be followed, but I'm sure the same would apply to Special-K. Just thought I'd point that out.

to me though,
good pills w/little or nosideffects,
are better than most treatment 'sides Yoga,
Yoga doesn't work completely enough IMO.
people, over time find the best meds they can

one need not do much to be healed,
in ways they could not cope easily enough to heal

a good friend who's alive in me,
took LSD once (that I know of) and he too described,
life was never the same,
philosopher on psychology of religion,
experience result of a type of bet haha,
he succeeded in this bet,
by remaining concious enough to be aware,
and vividly being able to recount the experiance.
Joyous Cosmology may tell of this very experience,
by Alan Watts,
an interesting read,
only read first 1/4th prolly,
i'm scattered though, hehe

DB, interesting footnote about dextromethorphan. I just read through medscape and found that it has caused 5 deaths in teens who abused it. The powdered form is particularly complicit in these deaths.

I have recurrent depression and the suffering can be particulary excruciating.

Are there any studies done on dextromethorphan and depression? I have not found any-yet.

ME

Purely a speculation, its a widely abused drug that the dea and media try to avoid talking about and has been around since the 70s. I imagine any death with this drug involved massive doses. The LD50 is in the 5+ gram range.

Not that i would encourage anyone to use it, its a horrible recreational drug. Like drinking a pint of whiskey, dropping half a hit of acid and then falling into a david lynch movie. But it does seem to have some odd properties to it.

Using it recreationally would be the equivalent of STUPID HURTS or worse.

I wonder if there are any anecdotal references to improved SSRI response when taking cough syrup containing DM?

What I find interesting is that this research has huge and hopefully powerfully positive implications for treating people who suffer from severe, recurrent depression. A fast-acting anti-depressant could potentially save so many lives and improve the quality of life for untold numbers of people.

The ketamine research gives me a smidge of hope for the future.

I am a bit better. The stress of my situation is playing havoc with my mental state. One tiny bit of good news and I feel better for a little while or at least able to control the tiger for a short time. But I don't stay better because the dark feelings are just under the frosting, not gone, I feel them, but a little support or good news is like an anesthetic-when it wears off, the pain is still there, and I know it will be there.

This is why I am hopeful for this research.

Not wanting to encourage anyone to drink cough medicine, but are these deaths due to DXM (dextromorphan), or are they due to drinking cough syrup? Not all cough syrup's are purely DXM... some contain some medicines that are quite nasty in overdose...

what I find interesting is that this research has huge and hopefully powerfully positive implications for treating people who suffer from severe, recurrent depression. A fast-acting anti-depressant could potentially save so many lives and improve the quality of life for untold numbers of people.
so as someone who takes ketamine,
are u happy-er than on adderall amphetamines?

that'd be neat,
cuz' my adderall doses are quite the treat,

yes, it can save so many from needless sufferring,
efficiently and... lost my thought

[talking 'bout Christianity is quite unsatisfying @times,
i'm all kinda' down and worried 'bout BS people eat from scriptures] not all is, but making it work, depends on having a heart and happy mind, brain, and body.

ANWAY!!! whoa that was off a tangent

i wanna new drug, but adderall is better than nothing, haha, i won't set up an illusion, like my great friends,
polar thinking is subtle (ADDers are quite susceptible)
and illusinos anyone,
unless they've training (usually).

QK

Ketamine puts users in a dissociated state, meaning that they are less connected to both a sense of self and the reality around them. If a large enough amount is taken, users may go into or through a "K-hole", a state of wildly dissociated experience in which other worlds or dimensions that are difficult to describe with language are said to be perceived, all the while being completely unaware of their individual identities or the outside world. Users may feel as though their perceptions are located so deep inside the mind that the real world seems distant (hence the use of a "hole" to describe the experience). Some users may not remember this part of the experience after regaining consciousness, in the same way that a person may forget a dream. The "re-integration" process is slow, and the user gradually becomes aware of surroundings. At first, users may not remember their own names, or even know that they are human, or what that means. Movement is extremely difficult, and a user may not be aware that he or she has a body at all.my cousin took acid once,
that's what he described it to me as being like,
i felt something like that on marijuana shortly after,
an adderall dose....

feelings of starting over were present in me,
i felt like I was sticking out (which I was),
deeper than my mind remembers ever,
but you know?
it was alright actually,
a better deeper sense of how I truly feel underneathe,
maybe I'll try it again...

no pain, just like i felt all negativity clearly, but not really attached, first time, you may freak out, get worried like me, nothing to worry!
no guilt to be sorry,
say to infinity,
i'm here finally

qk

Not wanting to encourage anyone to drink cough medicine, but are these deaths due to DXM (dextromorphan), or are they due to drinking cough syrup? Not all cough syrup's are purely DXM... some contain some medicines that are quite nasty in overdose...HF-here are some links:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-12-29-drug-abuse-cover_x.htm

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2005/ANS01360.HTML

It seems to be a growing problem. It is the DXM-especially in capsule form and the other ingredients certainly do not help either.

Another interesting tidbit-DXM may help with fibromyalgia pain-but not at high doses that could lead to adverse events. Here a couple more links:

DXM-Fibromyalgia (http://www.webmd.com/fibromyalgia/news/20050523/cough-drug-may-help-fibromyalgia-pain)

http://www.afsafund.org/update0702abs.htm

ketamine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Ketamine-2D-skeletal.png/150px-Ketamine-2D-skeletal.png

dextromethorphan

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/DxmFlat%2B3d.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextromethorphan
Classification:At high doses, dextromethorphan is classified as a dissociative drug, a subclass of hallucinogenic drugs to which ketamine and phencyclidine (PCP) also belong.

phencyclidine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/46/PCP.png/100px-PCP.png

PCP == NMDA RA

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/ACHA_SAR.png

Image 1 (directly above) ->- chiral enantiomer - chirality at C linked to R1,R2,R3 and H

But understanding how the NMDA and glutamate systems ...PCP ->- 'dissociative' effects
PCP ->- NMDA RA

{NMDA n/t system}{glutaminergic n/t system}
->-
{{mind}}

Inteference == -/ /- eg with PCP

{NMDA}{glutamate}
->-
{{mind}}

+ PCP

->-

{NMDA}-/dissociation/-{glutamate}
->-
{{mi-/dissociation/-nd}}

Dissociation

PCP ->- dissociative effects from both the human experiential perspective (through the eyes of man)
and switching perspective
PCP ->- dissociative effects on the neurochemical process itself delivered by evolution
(through the eyes of our maker ... the 'Universal Process of Evolution' which applies Universally and not just to lil'ole life)

ketamine

looking up from down below

from above the bowels -
above even the inner sanctum ... * (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=390783&postcount=18)

from a post or so above ... Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by its authors
IONOTROPIC GLUTAMATE RECEPTORS AND THE BRAIN-GUT AXIS
Ionotropic glutamate (iGlu) receptors are ligand-gated ion channels comprising of three subtypes,
N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA),
amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazole propionate (AMPA),
and kainate (KA) receptors.

METABOTROPIC GLUTAMATE RECEPTORS AND THE BRAIN-GUT AXIS
Although it was initially thought that glutamate
it was later discovered that this ubiquitous transmitter also acts on metabotropic (mGlu) receptors.
acted only on iGlu receptors,
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
... from a parallel thread on ketamine ... Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by its authors (also) (according to qk) - a bizarre coincidence? hmmm... one can nev... silly!!!
realistically, with these complex and chronic conditions, it is unlikely that a one-time treatment will be a complete cure: with addiction, depression and RSD, it is already clear that many people either do not respond or relapse at some point after ketamine therapy. But understanding how the NMDAglutamate systems drive memory and create responses that are resistant to change could offer insights well beyond these conditions in which and the brain has got stuck in a rut and needs a reboot. Ketamine's mind-altering properties may be far more useful than any clubber ever imagined.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
[solution (http://emj.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/21/3/351)]
ketamine promotes gut motility

There are thousands of people who suffer from treatment resistant depression. Many suffering people will never have acess to this medication because of the fda,dea. So sad.

The benzene ring emerges through combination of
~only actually freshly emergent structures
~stoichiometry == (3)x
structures combining to yield that emergent structure with emergent properties on a higher (by definition) layer of abstraction

So ... (3)x defined as follows
->-
benzene C6 (3)x H6 (3)x 6e- (3)x

6e- ->- 3 pi electrons (deleocalized wlectron cloud)
Emergent property
pi electron emerges ~but~
1 3 4 13
Since 4->- [[[13->-1->-3]]] is mooshed together 3 pi electrons are seen in RRReality

e- (3)2
H (3)2
C (3)2

3 emergent structures
->- 3 layers of abstraction
->- yields a novel emergent structure
->- with novel properties
->- thanks to delocalization of the e- cloud.

A nomadic electron cloud

~That's the pattern~

And then ->-
C6 (hexagon-hexagram)
C5 (furan - pentagram)
anti-C6 (anti-hexagon-hexagram) ->- emergence

anti-
->- defined (here) under terms enantiomeric mirror image ie not able to be superimposed upon its counterpart in 3,4 space
->- required a 13d geometrical tensor correction

->- ->- for geometric alignment of the two forms to be permitted.

---ASIDE ->- proton,H,H2---

H ->- emergent structure physics/chemistry

H+ proton
+ electron

->-

p+ + e- ->- n + ve

Source
(http://www.physlink.com/Reference/ChemicalElements/hydrogen.cfm)Hydrogen
:-) H crystal structure == hexagon -<- cheeky
not H but H2
is estimated to make up more than 90% of all the atoms or three quarters of the mass of the universe. This element is found in the stars, and plays an important part in powering the universe through both the proton-proton reaction and
carbon
not C2 but C
-
nitrogen cycle
not N but N2
-- stellar hydrogen fusion processes that release massive amounts of energy by combining Hydrogen to form
Helium.
not He2 but He
Source ends
---ASIDE ends ->- proton,H,H2---

->- added

C ->- itself containing 6 protons, 6 electrons, 6 neutrons

So sad.???adrenaline???

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Adrenaline.svg/200px-Adrenaline.svg.png

???tyramine??? ->- smelly botty cheeses

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Tyramine_structure.png/250px-Tyramine_structure.png

man dude !!!

just don't sniff your fingers after groping around in there !!!

oi vey !!!

phew !!!

pooey !!!

but every good Frenchman knows that one eats with one's mouth and not one's eyes or nose or

hmmm...

ears

... but it's rattling !!!

oh my!

Italian cheese

those pesky Italians

:-)

stick to coffee dudes.

hee hee

and just for the record

I have absolutely *no* idea.

go cheese!
all that tryhydro

lol

hydroholics,
i don't know I clue,
what do I say,
to anywhoever,
that can be whereever,

looking up from down below
up and down are where they go,
doubting is not the path i flow,
mom heard say dangit,
what did I do to deserve it?


emergent structures
->- 3 layers of abstraction
->- yields a novel emergent structure
->- with novel properties
->- thanks to delocalization of the e- cloud.

A nomadic electron cloud

~That's the pattern~

And then ->-
C6 (hexagon-hexagram)
C5 (furan - pentagram)
anti-C6 (anti-hexagon-hexagram) ->- emergence
the anti is made up,
down to up,
looking at the sad pup,


C up
c down
C down-up


e- ->- 3 pi electrons (deleocalized wlectron cloud)
Emergent property
pi electron emerges ~but~
1 3 4 13
Since 4->- [[[13->-1->-3]]] is mooshed together 3 pi electrons are seen in RRReality

e- (3)2
H (3)2
C (3)2
evolution and 3, to appear 13. magic tricks
could be the trick,
believeing everythings,
hindrances,
to what?
Becomes not a game,
not the same,
oops forgot my name,
oooo a shiny mirror....

Italiano,
mambo italiano,
mambo mambo mambooowww..

cephus,
severus,
mambo,
italianos (hehe)
mexicanos
americanos,
chicanos,
nosotros,
knows,
nose,
poses,
moses,
roses

12345, oopps 12435, oopss 12453, o, i remember it's 164321, ya!

novelle props?
when it stops,
it goes to background,
to the lb of Lady and the Tramp,
sometimes even!

everyone agreeing,
cuz' they cannot be remembering,
objection,
objection is imbalanceonion.

qk, bye come chat w/
me,

what comes easy to ADDers?

Fun,
looking straight at the sun,
haha i tell you whoever you agree to be,
it's stupid cuuuuuull in Jamaica muuun.
Fun,
looking straight at the moon,
feelin' like a buffoon
dancin' like a lune
you are your own rrreality
it's stupid cuuuuuull in that mind Ja maicin, suuun.

whaohooo!

it's cuuulll,
even in teh sun, duuudddda


hhaaha

the fabrique of rreallity,
ah i see..

inner sanctum, is above,
what is meant by those words..

C666, oh my!

above the bowels.. can I buy a vowel?

lol

why PCP?

for what reason are u adding up things?
the ulitmate med,
to throw away egos indefinitely..?

qk

HF-here are some links:....

Very interesting.... I never thought it was extremely dangerous alone, beyond the hallucinogenic effects... But then again, anything can be dangerous in the right amounts. The first article does mention other ingredients. Here's a quote from the first link:

*** QUOTE ***

It can be particularly dangerous when taken with other drugs.

Lee Cantrell, interim director of the California Poison Control System's San Diego division, says that Robitussin and some other cough and cold remedies containing DXM have additional ingredients that can be fatal to abusers if taken in huge doses. For example, antihistamines, which often are combined with DXM in cough and cold remedies, can be toxic and cause respiratory distress, Cantrell says. He says cough medicine abuse emerged as a problem in California about three years ago.

During what officials called a "mini-outbreak" of DXM overdoses in New Jersey two months ago, a 15-year-old boy had to be treated for acetaminophen poisoning after he drank two bottles of Robitussin and took some Coricidin. Acetaminophen is a pain reliever/fever reducer that, over time, can cause liver damage if taken in large doses.

*** END QUOTE ***

I'm curious as to how many DXM related deaths are there (from overdosing on medicines that only contain DXM). I would think that most would have the sense not to drink cough syrup irrespective of that... what some will do to get a "high". Especially during school hours. I read a story about someone who overdosed on diphenhydramine (another common OTC ingredient)... and the person did it right before going to school. Maybe there is something wrong with the schools if students would like to be intoxicated at the time they are supposed to be learning (and enjoying it, hopefully.... but unlikely).

HF here is a little more info you might find interesting-

http://www.voiceofthevictims.com/aboutdxm.htm

A link about the problems with DXM-very informative and worrisome-so available to kids.

One caution I did find-mixing DXM with SSRI's can cause or be a factor in Serotonin Syndrome-a potentially life-threatening interaction. Most likely multiple drug and dose dependent. New York Times Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/health/27brody.html?ei=5088&en=80b0de429a079486&ex=1330232400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print)

Lexapro comes with a warning to ask a Dr. before taking any OTC cold remedy-it is an SSRI.

sometimes,
i feel i have these symptoms,
and I don't smoke these drugs...

are maybe these chemicals interacting,
in the person who is ADDing?
now i'm laughing..
it'd be interesting.
inside out this is turning

The background behind dextromethorphan is rather strange. It was created because they wanted a drug to replace codeine in cough syrups as its an opiate and will turn all the good boys and girls into drug addicts. So they created a much more powerful dissociative and replaced all the codeine.

Back to ketamine right quick:

Ketamine puts users in a dissociated state, meaning that they are less connected to both a sense of self and the reality around them. If a large enough amount is taken, users may go into or through a "K-hole", a state of wildly dissociated experience in which other worlds or dimensions that are difficult to describe with language are said to be perceived, all the while being completely unaware of their individual identities or the outside world. Users may feel as though their perceptions are located so deep inside the mind that the real world seems distant (hence the use of a "hole" to describe the experience). Some users may not remember this part of the experience after regaining consciousness, in the same way that a person may forget a dream. The "re-integration" process is slow, and the user gradually becomes aware of surroundings. At first, users may not remember their own names, or even know that they are human, or what that means. Movement is extremely difficult, and a user may not be aware that he or she has a body at all.

I have entered a dissociated state close to this on mushrooms. (a LOT of mushrooms)
It's dangerous ground traveling that far into another state of mind.
Dangerous, but fun :)
I was at my friend's appartment, but had no clue where I was, and a faint idea on who these people where, as weel as who I was. My brain felt like it reset every 5 minutes, and a new thought process, whatever I was thinking or talking about at the time, started over, and a new process took place. At the end of the night I started my re-integration process, and from what I can remember, every memory that I had remembered from childhood to present came to me one at a time, starting with the 1st childhood memory.
Ketamine is a deliriant hallucinogen, while LSD and mushrooms are dissociatives. (i'm pretty sure that's how they're classified) I wonder if they can relate to ketamines resetting qualities?

Other way around L and psilocybin are hallucinogens and ketamine, dxm. pcp are dissociatives. Not that it really matters either way what we classify all these chemicals. :)

UNTILL DRUGS ARE MADE FOR THE BODY OFEV THAT PERSONS TAKEING INTO COUNT THERE GENES AN HOW THERE WORK AN SOME THE INVMTS IUIESESS THEN THERE NEVER BE A SAFE DRUG SOMETIMES WE NOT GIVEN A CHOISE TO TSKE THE DRUGS AN LIKE MEANY TIMES WE SEE DRUGS COSING SO MUCH PORBLEMS WHEN THERE RACTAT ITS ABOUT RISK AN HOW WE ACCS IT AN THE THINGS WE KNOW WHEN WE INFORUMED FOVE THE PORBLE INFO IS POWER WITHOUT THAT THERE CONTINES TO BE PORBLEMS......

DORM

#9, the trinity of trinities, cats having 9 lives and there's only so far that the overarching theme of this set of 9 can take us - chemistry over arches the triplet
->-
1 {{{filling in the gaps}}}- chemistry (classical)
2{{{}}} - chemistry (classical)
3{{{}}} - chemistry (classical)
4{{{}}} - biology - biochemistry - still chemistry though
5{{{}}} - biology - biochemistry - still chemistry though
6{{{}}} - biology - biochemistry - still chemistry though
7{{{}}} - psychology - biology - biochemistry - still chemistry though
8{{{}}} - psychology - biology - biochemistry - still chemistry though
9{{{}}} - psychology - biology - biochemistry - still chemistry though

Not yet:
->- ideas ->- kicking in at chemistry

H,C,aromatic ring
mind of modern man,mind + time,mind of ADDer
3 forms of virus - icosahedral,helical complex
3 forms of carbon - 3,4,13 (graphite,diamond,buckyball)
agape,extended families,one world
3 forms of bacteria (evol psych) - relates to flagella
DNA - 3 forms - RNA, simple circular, double helical

emotion/thought {{}}

emergence 1->2->3->4
emergent structure of higher abstractions in concert more powerful than lower.

amino acids
Gly ->- kinda' Hydrogen ->- no isomerism in the base emergent structure ->-
1' in {3,4,13{1'}}

man/woman ->- kiddies
fact/fiction{imagination} ->- reality

tyrosine ->- line of predominantly hormones, but dopamine ...
tryptophan ->- line of predominantly n/ts
ring6ring5 ->- imidazole

tyrosine+tryptophan gain amines - required for solubility

glutamate/aspartate ->- 2 soluble amino acids.

{{{solubility}}} ->- H bonds and polarity
H bonds
->- NH NH2 NH3 NH4+
C ain't so enigmatic

H He Li Be B C N
C is safe
N is out there.

It's all about proton and electron in this set of 9.
ie chemi lemi phlegmmy stree

{in vivo}
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
{in silico}
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
{in your dreams}
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
{in the 5H1TE !!!}

maybe

emergent 1 ->- 1a(->-2a1(->-3a1a or 3a1b) or 2a2(->-3a2a or 3a2b)) or 1b(->-2b1(->-3b1a or 3b1b) or 2b2(->-3b2a or 3b2b))

etc...

whereby 1,2,3 has 3d 4d 13d shapes within
AND emergence can occur by emergent structures in the various different lines - hopping over.

So a couple of emergent structures in different lines of 3 - might combine to yield a highly likely to succeed 4 - success - 'evolutionarily selected' for being rather excellent at being an emergent structure within context of the Planet.

Intelligence from reactivity to environmental 'stressors'

brain hurts -
... have blimmin 28132 pictures of different structures -
indole coming outta' imidazoles azole :-)

geeze - kinda' explains indole's freakin' stinkudon'tlike.

man nucleophile electrophile bases with acidic hydrogen bonded butts.

:-)

fun fun fun.

A little coherence here guys. I know its fun but not all of us have fallen quite so far down the rabbits hole. I enjoy your antics but not when 3/4ths of the thread is ginkin/sb's dadaist comedy hour.

A little coherence here guys. I know its fun but not all of us have fallen quite so far down the rabbits hole. I enjoy your antics but not when 3/4ths of the thread is ginkin/sb's dadaist comedy hour.

I agree... it would also be nice if posters could at least land within 50ft of the current topic when posting here (i.e. try to stay on topic). Thanks. :)

Honestly - trying - this isn't so easy though
->- 'brain hurts'


[QUOTE=DB]'hitting s wall'[\QUOTE]
is this bit ->-
minus 2 posts ->-
[QUOTE]
9
{in silico}
10
[\QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DB]'this is what I've learnt today'[\QUOTE]
relating to glutamate -> GABA
relates to all of the above relating to an equal and opposite being seen in the emergent process.

[QUOTE=DB]'dissociatives and hallucinogenics'[\QUOTE]
relates to the various ideas relating to the amino acids themselves.
From above - tyrosine, tryptophan, aspartic and glutamic acid appear to have special roles.
But histamine also - from previously.

The families of hallucinogenics and dissociatives appear to operate off the lines of

trypotphan [LSD]
glutamate ->- NM[D-Aspartic]

[QUOTE=DB]COMT, MAOI, adrenaline[\QUOTE]
Adrenaline fits into the line of tyrosine.

COMT, MAOI fit into the line of amines - generally the generation of the tyrosine line.

The amines - are modifications of tyrosine and tryptophan
->- hence
tyramine
tryptamine
which enhances their solubility.

The structures then appear of the:
Imidazole and indole rings -
which're the tryptophan and histamine core structures.

And these 2 structures contain a ring6ring5 or ring5
- this relates to qk's sad puppy dog -
think ring 6 next to ring 5 facing down.

The ring5 contains pi electrons - trying to work out how it fits into the process of emergence - if the process can be vizualized as
ring 6 - ring 5 - ring 6

- where the 2 ring 6's are the opposites - 'inverted' forms of one another.

Then:
[QUOTE=DB,Zach]DMT[\QUOTE]
di
methyl
tryptamine

This is the natural hallucinogen which is going to explain much.
It sits within the pineal gland -
and has the hallmark of
->-tryptamine and
->-methyls

which're 2 themes within this thread.

The methyls being themselves superstructures formed from emergence of C H ->- into the backnone for a set of tetrahedral chiral forms ->- kinda' like the amino acid.

However then come questions relating to eg H, glycine, CH4 ->- not chiral - just the backbone of chiral form ...
Are they the 1's of (3 4 13[1'])?

What am I looking for -?
->- something kinda' like the 2 halves of the equation ->-
hallucinogenic and dissociative
->- make sense as the latest reincarnation of a repeating theme -
kinda' like 'the Highlander' -
of a repetitive pattern of the Highlander facing foes of increasingly higher abstraction (harder to beat) - in order to become the one.

The qkuicening felt from beating (emergence with) lesser foes - is necessary - but there's an endpoint.

This pattern is there in qk's stories.

So - hallucinogenic vs dissociative ->-
line of tyrptophan and glutamate

alongside ???line of tyrosine and histamine???

The reason this is so difficult - is the multiple lines which can arise from emergence - and then the combination of emergent structures across lines - to generate a higher emergent structure therefrom.
That's a new idea on me - don't know if it's right - but scatters the 'linear' idea outta' the window ie
emergence 1->2->3->4 etc ...

I think it must still appear a little confused.

Probably because I haven't gotten ahold of it just yet.

man 3 25 am and thinking about 5 membered ring structures.

-<- ADD !!!

ugh!!!

:-)

And then the ideas of emergence of antagonistic form somehow ->-
maybe aspartic 'from the rib of' glutamic and tryptophan 'from the rib' of tyrosine - ie - the juxtaposition between antagonistic agents - relating to emergence - which is the rationalization of antagonistic forms into a single structure.

No sense?
Sense?

maybe 'sadsadjhh' makes more sense - than all of the above.

maybe tyrosine + histidine ->- tryptophan
ie the 5 and 6 membered rings of emergence
combine to permit emergence of a 'higher' structure.

This'd make tryptophan as rather important to our evolution ->-
which it must be - cf DMT.

A little coherence here guys. I know its fun but not all of us have fallen quite so far down the rabbits hole. I enjoy your antics but not when 3/4ths of the thread is ginkin/sb's dadaist comedy hour.I want this on a Tshirt, please? :D

cf:-)
DMTHow does she know?

:-)

Just ask the Oracle SB...she knows all ;)

I finally found the topic! I really do hope this research finds some answers. Due to this relapse of MDD, I look forward to any and all improvements and advances in curing, not just treating this potentially fatal disease called Depression.

To me this is serious. I almost lost my life to it 13 years ago and still battle this illness. Staying on topic really means alot to me. The suffering is enormous and devastating. I would embrace a cure and want to stay on top of the latest research.

Thanks all for understanding, I appreciate your consideration.

ME

Ketamine == "dissociative"
->- disconnection from one's self and reality

Ketamine == anti-depressant

Ketamine ->- dissociation of self from reality
- described as the "k-hole"
~=~ out-of-body experience.

Ketamine ~=~ cocaine *1
... though no dysphoria associated with come down
->- instead depression lifts*2
*1 same family as ADD medication, with the observation that dexedrine was initially sold by Glaxo as an anti-depressant.
*2 I *know* depression also - I know how quickly it lifts when the external trigger if there is one - is removed.
It would involve a mechanism for 'resetting' a component of the mind.

-Thoughts-
The cortex needs to feed into the amygdala in order to harness the 'emotion' subsystem towards satisfaction of its agenda
(agenda == model RRReality)

The emergence -<- (Emergent phenomenon) of mind requires association of - the outer layer with the centre.
The outer layers support the mind.
The inner layers are older ->- the emotional centres.

This process (of speciation of man through mind) is going to involve the emergence of a structure formed from:
2 equal and opposites.
These equal and opposites are going to prove to be some component of the:
NMDA system vs some component of the glutamate system -
noting that ->- I think that L-glutamate and D-aspartic acid are being used as the two halves which we need for emergence.

I think that these two components ->- highly water soluble - are the base of the line of mind.

What follows is the emergence and growth upwards - until we achieve mind by a specific isoform of the NMDA receptor in collusion with glutamate.
As ligand receptor, or antagonistic on a higher neuronal cell population level.

Ketamine will be shown to interfere with the interaction between these components ->- relatively simple to do in vitro.

And the net effect of this dissociation is to permit a reset button to be hit - in which a known logical inconsistency - within the mind - can be resolved.

Ketamine is an externally administered agent - we will have an equivalent ?DMT? - which we use to resolve these logical inconsistencies - ourselves.

Tentatively - logical consistencies within the cortex (mind) - cannot be solved until there's a separation between it and the emotional centres - which act as a kinda' anchor - preventing alterations in rrreality (cortex - mind of man).

Ketamine mimics ?DMT? and acts to dissociate the emergent structure of mind - to separate it into two - for long enough- for the logical inconsistencies to be ironed out (the more explanatory logical models of RRReality to win over their 'foes') - and thereafter - the two components of the mind are allowed to reassociate.
->-
We're then back to normal - a better normal.

[idea to be returned to]
Travelling down the k hole is an interesting description of the
->- ?connection between the two inverted halves of the emergent structure?
->- ?the black hole which is built into all emergent structures?
[\idea to be returned to]

I haven't been able to try any of those drugs - ever since I can remember - my own rrreality has been frighteningly fragile - too fragile to tamper with.

--------------------------------
OK - I'm sure that that's correct.
--------------------------------

Radiohead
'The Bends'
'Just'
~aka~
'We do it to ourselves'

that was a little ungratifying!
*points..

in my mind,
a man died,
therefore I do not need to be headached.

i sufferred as needlessly,
letting go of others is a daunting task,
i must say sincerely.

i threw up on 'em too many hours!
and for what?
no way, they says,
ahh!!
i,
many hours,
blast 'em.


(don' bother deleting my posts, BTW)

(SB needs some crazed juice) !~

[idea to be returned to]
Travelling down the k hole is an interesting description of the
->- ?connection between the two inverted halves of the emergent structure?
->- ?the black hole which is built into all emergent structures?
[\idea to be returned to]

i likes ur feelking!

ohhh.. poop.

whatevs.................hey~ waht!?

Ketamine ~=~ cocaine *1
... though no dysphoria associated with come down
->- instead depression lifts*2
yes! cocaine good for me, ??! lol. ooh,, i'm switchin.. whatabout, heaviness? what will ketamine provide for me tripping over my own *excess...

i'm out.
wait up!
emergence actually happens!
reminds me of pleasure..
but also,
we want a leak??
I like leaks..
hmm...


qk, this is a
just oh so wonderful threaddddd!!!

acid + base -> salt + water
H ->-
->- + NH3
->- + alkaloids eg caffeine,xanthine

{sleep}

AG ->- +OO ->- xanthine ->- +O ->- uric acid

crayzed
leaky
coffee

?mug

Wouldn't it be nifty if ketamine also somehow managed to "iron out" ADD as well as addiction and depression?

... our tithe ... ... ...... ... ......' The BENDS '
... our tithe ... ... ...... ... ......->- metaphor4 ...for... ->-<iframe style=\\"\\" absolute;=\\"\\" display:=\\"\\" block;=\\"\\" opacity:=\\"\\" 0.7;=\\"\\" z-index:=\\"\\" 500;=\\"\\" width:=\\"\\" 18px;=\\"\\" height:=\\"\\" 22px;=\\"\\" top:=\\"\\" 117px;=\\"\\" right:=\\"\\" 340px;\=\\"\\" src="http://www.google.com/notebook/static_files/blank.html" id="gnotes-notemagic" frameborder="0"></iframe>
... our tithe ... ... ...... ... ......' An AwAKENING '

AG ->- +OO ->- xanthine ->- +O ->- uric acid

aka~
'We do it to ourselves'
i see that now,
though i don't remember anything else..
oh!

the meds are not being naturally produced from w/in our heads, chemically.. i think

but, we are bringing them into our brains.. physically, mostly. until the chemicals get into one's individual homo sapien body..ordinarily speaking..



I haven't been able to try any of those drugs - ever since I can remember - my own rrreality has been frighteningly fragile - too fragile to tamper with.u don't take meds do you? u r quite sensitive to changes. allergic to a lot, in that sense.. and reactive



gum? ahh.. nv/m


just ask the Oracle SB...she knows all ;)OKAY... uh.. waht? slaps forhead* well, OK. . he is female now.. to me at least.. well, that's neat

maybe tyrosine + histidine ->- tryptophan
ie the 5 and 6 membered rings of emergence
combine to permit emergence of a 'higher' structure.

This'd make tryptophan as rather important to our evolution ->-
which it must be - cf DMT.

tryptophan {sleep} :)

adding a banana is quite good for people? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B6#Sources)

Enzymes that contain vitamin B6 – pyridoxal-5' phosphate (PLP) – as a cofactor are of great relevance to biology and medicine. PLP-dependent enzymes belong to a small number of evolutionary lineages, but encompass more than 140 distinct catalytic functions, thus representing a remarkable example of divergent evolution.
catalytic (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/5htsynt_2.png)ADD/HD ~=~ depression

alcohol destroys b6,
seizure is more likely.. aha! i was already low..

vitamin B6 (http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb6.asp#h4),
pick up sticks..

____

is the things we are at,
need to be futher analyzed?

more of carbidoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbidopa), w/in the dop. production pathway..
and it is a thing involved in dop. production, in Central nervous system..

5-HTP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Hydroxytryptophan)

When given to rats, 5-HTP can significantly attenuate THC-induced memory impairment. what about any causative impairment to the memory?

AG ->- +OO ->- xanthine ->- +O ->- uric acid


Similar benefits have been seen in those with cognitive deficits resulting from psychostimulant useoh, ok..



PLP acts as a coenzyme in all transamination reactions, and in some decarboxylation and deamination reactions of amino acids. The aldehyde group of PLP forms a Schiff-base linkage with the ε-amino group of a specific lysine group of the aminotransferase enzyme. The α-amino group of the amino acid substrate displaces the ε-amino group of the active-site lysine residue. The resulting aldimine becomes deprotonated to become a quinoid intermediate, which in turn accepts a proton at a different position to become a ketimine. The resulting ketimine is hydrolysed so that the amino group remains on the complex. It is also active in the condensation reaction in heme synthesis. It is produced from pyridoxal by the enzyme pyridoxal kinase, and it requires one ATP. It is metabolized in the liver. It is also found on glycogen phosphorylase in the liver, where it is used to break down glycogen when glucagon or epinephrine signals it to do so.

Pyridoxal phosphate is not required in the transaminase reaction of lysine catabolism.

PhCN forms coordination complexes with late transition metals that are both soluble in organic solvents and conveniently labile
The opposite of labile in this context is "stable."
cool..


anyway,
i'm sure,
it was not explanatory..
but ho' well,
i gotta go fo' now.

ketimine (was a misspelling?) lol? i dunno, but whateva!

qinKIN

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset ;" class="alt2"> just ask the Oracle SB...she knows all ;) </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
OKAY... uh.. waht? slaps forhead* well, OK. . he is female now.. to me at least.. well, that's neat
"Just ask the Oracle, SB...she knows all." She also knows how to speak and write grammatically flawless English; she just chooses not to in places like forums for people who may be impulsive, or have LDs, or just plain not give a hoot about such piddling little mouse droppings as perfect sentence structure.

Is that better? :eyebrow: There have been private jokes at this place for a looooong time, at least since I have been here.

p+ + e- ->- n
{} {} ->- {{}}
but {{}} is smaller than one would have thought

big ->- small
evolution into the inner layers of the cosmic onion

going in

to ...

{tbc}

periodic table (http://www.corrosionsource.com/handbook/periodic/) - diatomic ->-
H2 O2 N2
and then the line of F2,Cl2,Br2,I2
{1}{-1}
{1}+|{-1}| == 2
H2 O2 N2

also :-) diatom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom)

stable labile
->- stabile * (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=392656&postcount=18)
Ozmosis - a slow change in concentration

==

In order for a second conscious 'attention' process to arise, we need a mechanism, and we suppose that random statistical variation has produced a long, slow, and relatively small shift in some aspect of brain chemistry.


water

acid+base ->- salt + water

+ and - ->-evolve more stable +/- and ...

and and and

-- -- --

pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH ... pH

-- -- --
... sleep ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Passionflower.jpg
http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=101

sumtin related (http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=101)

Our tour company had a third jungle camp near the canopy walkway, and as soon as we got there, Michael, Tom, and especially I began looking for more bootleg rum. This time we turned up something called haya huasca instead. It came in an old Coke bottle with a wooden plug in the top and was made from herbs and bark and such. Michael said that, as best he could translate, it was supposed to "make us throw up and see the future." We didn't get sick and we certainly didn't see the future, or I would have kept my eye on yen fluctuations and would be rich. It was a mild drug, producing just a few sparks of light and some glowing auras at the edges of the field of vision and delivering a minor inner bliss, a little psychic wet kiss. That is, I thought it was a mild drug until Susan and I began urgin everyone to climb back to the top of the canopy walkway and "dig the sunset."on Ayahuasca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayahuasca)

Passion Flower * (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_flower#Medical_and_entheogenic_uses)


hey! i know what trippin' means.. haha! hehe

Look at me!
Look at me!
Look at me now!
It is fun to have fun,

but you have to know howTherein lies the solution to anxiety, depression and the rrreality family of mental disorders.
A concept of fun arises from evolution of mind, through knowledge and information upload; a consequence of alleviating logical inconsistencies within each of our own RRReality modelling engines (minds).
This (->evolution of mind) general tendency leads to an individual being able to define 'fun' for themselves - that is - within the unique context of the rrreality of that individual.

--- -in more detail- -in more detail- ---

information in ->- energy upload [efferent signals] ->- cortical (thinky - mind) subsystem generation ->- {interneurone} evolves using the Universal rule - must subscribe, if to evolve - structures (logical - here) of 3,4,13d.

ADD as 13d structural form supporting multiple threads of conscious awareness.

In a sense - :-)
- consciousness is that bit in the middle - :-)

{efferent}{afferent}

{efferent}|{afferent}
{efferent}v
{efferent}evolution of the bit in the middle, interneurone through 3, 4 and 13d logical forms

Consequences of an exquisitely cross-linked structure include tendency towards logical consistency and morality - and represents a pre-requisite for love
- love of another, love of others, love of all others {agape} ...

However in between the
logical
&
love

... one should mention - comes the consequence of following the pull of nature - deeper insight into that pull of nature - ability to divine better the desires of that evolutionary pull of nature - and the pleasant feelings
~fun~
which arise when we do so - when we listen to ourselves sufficiently to follow that pattern which we have taken - that tendency towards ever increasingly abstract philosophical thought which ...

... takes us back to the start ... ie
'information in ->- energy upl ... ... ...'

... whereby all of the above is taking us inexorably towards
'energy generation' without 'information in'

*thought-powered*

'took the chevy to the levy - but the levy was dry'
... levies redundant.
Where levies -<- petrol dispensers (oopsy!)

--- -in more detail- -in more detail- --- ENDS ---

Nobody can tell you what you find fun.
One cannot tell anybody that they will find it fun.

... or at least it's real tough - requires intimate knowledge of that little individual.

And Sam, I am, age 4 - has been running around for a day or so - and yes - Seuss has hit ...

'Look at me!
Look at me!''Look at me!
Look at me!'

... geeze - toilet roll on head - repeating 'I am a garlic'

'poppa'
'Yes Sammy sausage'
'poppa - can I have a go now ...'

~{{{reluctantly passes the toilet over to the little guy}}}~

Seal - 'Crazy'
'we're never gonna' survive
unless we get a little ~crazy~'

... takes us back to the start ... ie
'information in ->- energy upl ... ... ...'

... whereby all of the above is taking us inexorably towards
'energy generation' without 'information in'

*thought-powered*yes,
i do believe that the mind is always in front, if you will.

screwin' that agreement. . . ahh.. nv/m !

the mind is the body and all outside of mind, since mind is not a thing..

we do not always know, is that a ... sin?

ahh!! yes!~ or no?

little me.. doesn't matter waht I-I do.

jc, says: I-I do not matter

information in ->- energy upload [efferent signals] ->- cortical (thinky - mind) subsystem generation ->- {interneurone} evolves using the Universal rule - must subscribe, if to evolve - structures (logical - here) of 3,4,13d.

ADD as 13d structural form supporting multiple threads of conscious awareness.
Consequences of an exquisitely cross-linked structure include tendency towards logical consistency and morality - and represents a pre-requisite for love
- love of another, love of others, love of all others {agape} ... but the individual,
always! gets to me..

what is good for the individual,
and what is good for society, are not always ONE..

my anxiety!!! umm.. thorn?

both make a person cringe, ouchy..

thorny? the medicine..

prickly--goo



'Look at me!
Look at me!''Look at me!
Look at me!'

... geeze - toilet roll on head - repeating 'I am a garlic'

'poppa'
'Yes Sammy sausage'
'poppa - can I have a go now ...'



uhh.. ok! not afraid to ask. but not a dweeb..



... one should mention - comes the consequence of following the pull of nature - deeper insight into that pull of nature - ability to divine better the desires of that evolutionary pull of nature - and the pleasant feelings
~fun~
which arise when we do so - when we listen to ourselves sufficiently to follow that pattern which we have taken - that tendency towards ever increasingly abstract philosophical thought which...
okok. it's hard to disagree!

honestly, prediction is hard to tell if it were real..
images, is conciousness (Our awareness, mostly.) (?)



a genuine kiss, from a princess*
changes Frog into Prince.



adios, b4 i forget

Very interesting original article. Many other psychedelics also show similar theraputic potential; for example, right now there are human trials for the use of MDMA for treating PTSD, and I do believe salvia divinorium, a kappa opioid agonist, has shown efficacy in treating depressive and substance abuse disorders.

The bit about RSD is particularily interesting, because originally it was thought to be a local (peripheral) nervous dysfunction only; now, though the pathology is still unclear, it's thought to be partially central. This data would suggest it is almost fully central.

Are there any natural ways to boost Ketamine levels in the brain? I'm not to inclined to start asking around my school for LSD....

... have fun ...

haha!!!

yes!
i took it the WRONG way, haha, BTW,

qk

... kinda' like a s'ppository?

:-)

suppose - B'ma needs 'em for piles ... aha aha aha.

Queen of the Piles chillin' with the Lord of the Flies.

interesting that you mention MNDA. They talk about MNDA causing brain damage. I'm guessing MNDA is only neurotoxic at larger doses. MNDA at reasonable doses probably would be a great antidepressant. FDA and DEA will never allow this chemical medical uses. FDA and Pharmaceutical companies have no financial incentive to do so. The dangers of chemicals like MNDA and Ketamine are exagerated by the FDA/DEA to further their agendas.

I don't think Ketamine is a naturally occuring molecule in the human body. The only way to increase ketamine is to ingest it. Ketamine has the same relationship to the body Adderall or Methylphenidate has. Both Adderall and Methylphenidate are not native to the human body, rather they interact with receptors and neurotransmitters in the brain and body.

MNDA
motor neurone disease association
... a minor typocal, or perhaps not - deviation ...

eg (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/312/7033/724)
1996;312:724 (23 March)
Editorials:Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and motor neurone disease
Clinical and pathological overlap may suggest common genetic and environmental factors The label "neurodegenerative" is often ...

Given that the drive is towards increased neurostimulation - over exuberant cortical neurones involved in processes of thought may inadvertently attempt to take over areas of the brain - which aren't really theirs to infiltrate


Autonomous control of physiological systems is one example.
The motor cortex is another.

Kinda' biting the hand which feeds.

MND and Parkinson's fit into 'lessons learnt' along the way.
Alzheimer's - into another 'species' with will to expand
So ->-

RNA - as evidenced alone and within the viral genome ...
DNA -
protein - prions and Alzheimers
neuronal cell populations (physical form)
neuronal cell populations (logical form) - the infectious idea ->- meme

it's a kinda'
energy ->- evolution model
in which pevious constituents are retained - but through emergent energetic evolution - cycles generate higher energy structures - more complex structures - structures higher up in terms of 'abstraction layer'

... despite all of this though -
power conversion into useable form resides as the 'wind beneath the sails' - of all of this ...

chemistry
we are kinda' a really really complex proton condenser - evolution eeking out mechanisms to harness the power of the

free sub-atomic
no physical presence
pre-emergent particle
->-
the first particle with mass
our world
the energy released in this uber emergent event
number 1 of 9
== tremendous - and set to set the scene for the next set
of emergent reactions
(9 stages before reprise - recreation of - in effect stage 1 ie quantum coolness)

Higgs boson fits in here.

... so - imagine a sphere with 3 dimensions.
Each of those 3 dimensions need expand up in 3 dimensions, each - in turn ...

... the 9 dimensional increase leading from ...
(sphere) ->- (sphere)

... an absolutely identical copy of that initial stage
... reprise to identical functionality of its identical in all bar size predecessor

quantum consciousness betrays the connectivity between
(sphere) ->-(sphere)

(sphere) or (sphere) or even further down (no matter) are reprise on behaviour of the quantum layer

(sphere) = consciousness (human consciousness)

The instantiation of the 'spooky behaviour of quantum physics'
upon its older twin :-) brother
human consciousness ... is a subject of cool interest

---ASIDE---

(taster - telepathy - would involve connections between 2 points in space - which through the capacity to bend space - may be rendered 'physically' close - despite great distance potentially in that pre-emergent place)

(taster II -
... again ...

2 points on a piece of card - right next to each other - and then the card bent - such that they're on diametrically opposed sides of a cylinder - with the stipulation that one may only travel between the two - in a straight line.
O
circumference = 2 pi r =30ish if r = 5
distance = circumference / 2 = 15ish
d = 2 r eg 10 if r -<- 5
as the crow flies = 10

... so ... capacity to unravel space
(time)
resets the rules in such a way that - previous walls dissolve.)

---/ASIDE---

finally - all of the protection mechanisms which are set to prevent
->- (from above)

MNDA
motor neurone disease association
... a minor typocal, or perhaps not - deviation ...

... are X-chromosomal - arising through mutation in XY Homer's - but only passed on by XX Margulikes - when H+M ->- Luc(k)yLisa

... now please tell me that
MNDA wasn't an NMDA typo :-)

sausages (vegetarian)

I am a tree.

Therein lies the solution to anxiety, depression and the rrreality family of mental disorders.
A concept of fun arises from evolution of mind, through knowledge and information upload; a consequence of alleviating logical inconsistencies within each of our own RRReality modelling engines (minds).
This (->evolution of mind) general tendency leads to an individual being able to define 'fun' for themselves - that is - within the unique context of the rrreality of that individual

You know SB you have a point in the above, “play” does tend to cause a type of emotional disassociation from stress and anxiety. I remember this from a past event. . . . I was under a lot of stress I was to the point of loosing me mind, I couldn’t eat or sleep, I cried a lot.

I was at work feeling very fatigued from all the depression anxiety, the doc. And I were standing out side the clinic and I was fixing to go to the drug store to pick up a snack and the doc wanted a snack also so he went to give some money to pay for his. The wind caught the bill and yanked it out of his hand. There we were all decked out in our medical outfits chasing this bill in the wind behind a clinic in the back parking lot. The bill chase became a game the wind seems to be playing with us. . . . we started laughing and when the laughter was over I remember for that moment while we chased that bill and laughed I was completely disassociated from the feelings of anxiety


I remember feeling as if a weight had been lifted. . . . the feeling lasted about an hour well until I got home and the stress and anxiety were there waiting for me but I do remember that realizing in that moment exercise and play do allow a disconnect of a most positive kind. . . .perhaps laughing and playing causes a chemical change in the brain that seem like it would be a lot safer than some of the drug alternatives spoken about here. So funa nd play may be like a natural "re-set" button.

Any way didn’t want this most valuable point to go without being illuminated

heya tams ...

... imagine if the evolved adder mind has greater demands for neural stimulation
(boredom averse :-) )

... then on the negative side (from man's perspective) -
the darkest depths of depression of ADDer can be deeper ... much deeper than legacy form

...however...

->->->-the highs can be higher too.

Need to repeat that for my own benefit.

->->->-the highs can be higher too.

If neural stimulation is required to turn the sails of mind, cogs of mind, windmills of mind ...
... then the darkest of depressions driving the descent into darkness
*can* be supplanted by its balancing force

lightness of spirit - laughter - lifting us uppawards into the alluring embrace of enlightenment of spirit.

That's it Tams - disconnect the subsystem which drives the bad stuff (on occasion) - and engage the other side

... stop thinking ...

and

'au revoir ma tristesse'

That's it Tams - disconnect the subsystem which drives the bad stuff (on occasion) - and engage the other side

... stop thinking ...

and

'au revoir ma tristesse'

Tammy waves bye bye to the sadness. .. .

Well my Éloquence de la parole has gone via insomnia ; Despite my tired dementia I still know depression RRREALLLY sucks.

The ebb and flow though the cycles of moods can be likened to the cycles of night and day. However even the dark has the stars and the moon and light is broken up by patches of clouds and shade for too much of either thing is a bad thing. RRReality is one of harmonious balance blended within the universal nature.

Wow the things that come out when one has been awake 36 hours. . .guess I should take my yucky medication after 50 or so hours of continual wakefulness, the insomnia turns into a waking night mare which I share with those who dare to reside in the same home. . .and Gary really hates that
.

I love Ketamine, it is my number one favourite drug in the whole universe and I have tried them all. LSD makes everything drip and melt and opens your mind and lets you see things in a new light and cleanses your soul but Ketamine, it makes everything utterly ALIAN! Down is up and up is down, nothing has any depth so the world is like a 2 dementional collauge, kinda kike a piccasso painting. It is just so screwed up, not enlightening, but so much fun. At non recreational doses, a little bit instantly relieves my god awful social phobia and depression and makes me so comfortable in my own skin. Of course, as soon as its popularity started increasing the government resceduled it to S8 so now it is in the same leauge as morphine with every dose having to be accounted for. Scum
It is also worth noting that it is extreemly effective at negating amphetamine tolerence and side effects as a re DXM and othe partial and total NMDA receptor antagonists

I've been doing some reading and research on the nature of NMDA antagonists.

NMDA antagonists, especially ones with dopamine reuptake properties have the potential to fight all matter of addiction. Of course this will never be allowed in the world we live in as these drugs have been labeled problematic. I know of someone right now thats working on an experiment involving dextromethorphan and benzodiazepine dependence/withdrawal, i wonder how thats going.

I've been doing some reading and research on the nature of NMDA antagonists.
NMDA antagonists, especially ones with dopamine reuptake properties have the potential to fight all matter of addiction.
Of course this will never be allowed in the world we live in as these drugs have been labeled problematic.
I know of someone right now thats working on an experiment involving dextromethorphan and benzodiazepine dependence/withdrawal, i wonder how thats going.[/QUOTE]
[[[1.]]]
Benzodiazepines produce their variety of effects by depressing the central nervous system and by modulating the GABAA receptor, the most prolific inhibitory receptor within the brain.
Benzodiazepines ->- addictive potential

[[[2.]]]
From above [DB article]
Ketamine is known to work by blocking a glutamate receptor called the NMDA receptor.
Ketamine ->- addictive potential?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From wikiP
...like other drugs of this class such as tiletamine, memantine, and phencyclidine (PCP), induces a state referred to as "dissociative anaesthesia."As with other pharmaceuticals of this type, ketamine is used extramedically as a recreational drug.
Ketamine has a wide range of effects in humans, including analgesia, anesthesia, hallucination, arterial hypertension, and bronchodilation.
Ketamine is a chiral compound. Most pharmaceutical preparations of ketamine are racemic, however reportedly some brands have (mostly undocumented) differences in enantiomeric proportions. The more active enantiomer, S-Ketamine...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[[[3.]]]
From above
DXM is also a NMDA antagonist and so may have similar effect

[[[4.]]]
From above - the evolutionary pattery of emergence through combination of chiral partners D-aspartic and L-glutamic acid.

q?
Perhaps
'[i]Ketamine is a chiral'
from [[[2.]]] suggests that it can perform the same task as [[[4.]]] ie the two chiral forms can combine to produce an effective inhibitor of the emergent structure formed from
d-asp and l-glu
... hence inhibiting the process.

I believe that emergent structures don't just form - and then evolve off ...
those which form and persist undergoing some function - *require* constant energy infusion to drive that functionality.
By this I mean that ->-
E ->- drives ->- emergent structure to exhibit emergent property
Remove energy and the emergent structure dissipates.

In the case of that emergent structure which we're discussing here -
presumably chiral ketamine inhibits or mimics (ie antagonist or agonist, respectively) the functionality of a physiological emergent structure - *that* physiological emergent structure formed from l-asp and d-glu
[[]]

OK so ...
clues ...
Taking these drugs (ketamine - as above) ->- leads to ->- 'nice' feelings ... from fellow ADDF member observations (this thread).

Now ... from the article ...
[QUOTE] The reboot idea isn't the only possibility. Ketamine activates another glutamate receptor, known as AMPA, and this has been found to have antidepressant effects in animals; what is more, forthcoming research from NIMH appears to show that preventing AMPA activation blocks ketamine's antidepressant effect. Another possibility is that ketamine works by directly increasing levels of BDNF. Brain derived neurotrophic factor - would certainly allow rejigging of neurones on the physical layer ->- to iron out logical inconsistencies on the higher 'mental' layer - ie the mind as a collection of logical models.

Q?
So there is a subsystem called mind - which sits in the middle between afferent and efferent signals.
...to illustrate...
images come in through the optical channel, eye ->- afferent signal
these are pattern matched to eg a monster
efferent signal ->- 'run'

The mind though was a consequence of energetic concerns.

Important explanation coming up of:
'The mind though was a consequence of energetic concerns'.

We can go into detail on this subject - but essentially our goal (put in place by the neurone) has been to maximize neurotransmission
- getting as much of our brain 'firing' as possible as often as possible.

We often call the experiential perspective of the ADDer (evolved man) - as the:
stimulus, stimulation-seeking personality
or
boredom averse personality
(note - all of these descriptions of ADD are copied from big bad Tams).

So - the evolutionary push was for an array of neurones which copied RRReality
- that is -
... which laid down a copy of that external world - within the internal milieu.

So - just as Stabile states - the net effect is for rrreality to be driven to mimic RRReality. This selects (within context of the phrase evolutionary selection).

So this means that the evolutionary drive is for the mind to mimic as closely as possible - that outside world (RRReality) - because this will maxmize its own (the brains) firing.
Switching then - to the perspective of the neurone.
It cares about only one thing - to be working optimally - though noting that it has limits ...
---aside---
the firing of a neurone is associated with a 'dead-time' post-firing ->- which limits its potential maximal rate of {firing, usage, working}.
Standard undergrad image
->- here (http://employees.csbsju.edu/hjakubowski/classes/ch331/signaltrans/actionpot.gif)
with firing occurring between 0-1.5 ms and recovery between 1.5-3 ms and ---aside ends---

The drive which the neurone 'feels' to fire ... then extrapolates into our own desire to explore rReality.
To encode as good a copy of RRReality within rrreality
[RRR - is external Reality - and rrreality - is internal reality, the mind]

The drive to encode as good a copy of RRReality is independent of man.
It's an energetically driven process which yields conscious awareness as a by-product in its drive to maximize its own firing rate.
So - the nerve cell ascends ... forms itself into a brain - builds itself a mind, and then spends a whole while reorganizing itself so that the maximum amount of neurotransmission can be felt surging through its good self.

Communication of heavy concepts from individual 1 to 2 and highly abstract thought trump all-comers
... to explain (and based on ADDF member::Solar Life's list of bandwidths for our various senses - 'thought' wins) - extrapolating this idea - that ...
highly abstract philosophical thought, nonlinear thought off the back of the data structure (metamodel web), multiple threads of conscious awareness ->- elicit *most* neurotransmission

Neural structures which allow us to develop better models of RRReality will therefore infiltrate into any physical space (within the brain) - where they can - without endangering us - man.
IE they can't take out areas responsible for autonomous function regulation.
That'd be really silly.

OK - so we have a drive to develop mind.
We need a biological mechanism which drives the generation of this highly explanatory rrreality model of RRReality.

It's going to prove to be a mechanism which makes us feel unhappy as we see the inadequacies of our internal model in encapsulating RRReality - which although great for the neurone - ie {pushing us to learn more, discover our context, question why, uncover meaning}
->- actually ->-
through our own eyes - manifests itself as a hunger.
A sadness.
Unrequited thirst for knowledge.
The more we know the more we see we don't know.

Geeze - we're hard-coded to be unhappy ...???...

And so the drive is maintained.
We're slaves to an energetic process - which drives us to explain RRReality - but only because of the prime directive of the neurone.

But haven't we risen above the neurone's desires?
A subject for later.
... since we're on an emergent layer above neurone - shouldn't we be able to see through its little ruse?

And stop it.

Wouldn't that be? [i]
Racemic mixtures called ketamine

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next ... DB brings dopamine in ...

NMDA antagonists
+
Dopamine reuptake
->-
fight addiction

Why should dopamine be allowed in here?

Might this have something to do with the emergence of the older centre of our brain - the emotional centre.

Emergence of the emotonal centre - and what followed - the mind have similarities.
The greatest difference though is the pattern of interconnection between afferent and efferent signals.
Just as in the pre-Cambrian worm - the first nervous system - the emotional mass - central component of brain - is formed from inflexible connections between afferent and efferent.
Which is why the emotional reaction is much quicker than the reaction involving thought.

Simply - the connection between components of the interneurone set -
the extent of variability permitted within the bit in the middle - which processes (pattern matches) - external and turns the stream of RRReality from the outside - into a stram of efference - in which the organism reacts appropriately to that afferent stream.

Well known that the dopaminergic neurones are to be found deep within the ancestral parts (centre) of our brain - and within other organisms ... and so is it possible - that that region arose - once again - through emergence - but hazarding a guess - through emergence driven by the combination of a racemic mixture of
tyrosine, tryptophan?
tyr ->- dopamine
tryp ->- serotonin.

Though I wonder whether we can just drop these guys tyr and tryp back down to l-glu and d-asp ... wondering whether the ridiculously hydrophobic phenylalanine gets to play a part here ...

o smell!

that means that the drive to build our mind is also a lower evolutionary desire - which will only ever yield more questions - and which will thereby perpetuate 'depression'.


o smello pads! soaked in poop.

dogs chase cats

after all.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Mescaline_chemical_structure.png/300px-Mescaline_chemical_structure.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Adrenaline.svg/200px-Adrenaline.svg.png


Mescaline-Adrenaline


The union of emptiness and appearance


Though a conceptual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual) mystery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery), mindstream may be conceived as nonlinear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear) and wholistic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholistic). The medium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium) and conduit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduit) of mindstream is æther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86ther) or space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space) and is unbounded by temporality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporality) or locality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locality).
Water, if you don’t stir it,
will become clear;
the mind, left unaltered,
will find it own natural peace.”
hmm.. so this can be taken in ways, that are not rediculous, such as our pursuit of a medication, to make life sooo much worth being alive.

If the contents of mind are like pails and buckets floating in a stream, and the mindstream is like the dynamic flowing of the water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water), pure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure) awareness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awareness) is like the water itself in its essential wetness.
Ketamine is a general dissociative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_drug) anesthetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthetic) for human and veterinary use. Its hydrochloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloride) salt is sold as Ketanest, Ketaset, and Ketalar.

Vitamin K denotes a group of lipophilic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipophilic), and hydrophobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophobic), vitamins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamins) that are needed for the posttranslational modification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttranslational_modification) of certain proteins, mostly required for blood coagulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_coagulation).
Two tablespoons of parsley contains 153% of the recommended daily amount of Vitamin K.
ah hahahaha. looks at quote.. why yes! sorta'..

!:}<>K


Are there any natural ways to boost Ketamine levels in the brain? I'm not to inclined to start asking around my school for LSD....
In the late 1920s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920s), Danish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) scientist Henrik Dam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Peter_Henrik_Dam) investigated the role of cholesterol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol) by feeding chickens a cholesterol-depleted diet.<sup class="reference" id="_ref-Dam_0">[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K#_note-Dam)</sup> After several weeks, the animals developed hemorrhages and started bleeding. These defects could not be restored by adding purified cholesterol to the diet. It appeared that - together with the cholesterol - a second compound had been extracted from the food, and this compound was called the coagulation vitamin. The new vitamin received the letter K because the initial discoveries were reported in a German journal, in which it was designated as Koagulationsvitamin.
Within the cell, Vitamin K undergoes electron reduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox) to a reduced form of Vitamin K (called Vitamin K hydroquinone) by the enzyme Vitamin K epoxide reductase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K_epoxide_reductase) (or VKOR).<sup class="reference" id="_ref-Oldenburg_0">[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K#_note-Oldenburg)</sup> Another enzyme then oxidizes Vitamin K hydroquinone to allow carboxylation of Glu to Gla; this enzyme is called the gamma-glutamyl carboxylase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-glutamyl_carboxylase)

At present, the following human Gla-containing proteins have been characterized to the level of primary structure: the blood coagulation factors II (prothrombin), VII, IX, and X, the anticoagulant proteins C and S, and the Factor X-targeting protein Z (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Z). The bone Gla-protein osteocalcin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteocalcin), the calcification inhibiting matrix gla protein (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Matrix_gla_protein&action=edit) (MGP), the cell growth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_growth) regulating growth arrest specific gene 6 protein (Gas6), and the four transmembrane Gla proteins (TMGPs) the function of which is at present unknown. Gas6 can function as a growth factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_factor) that activates the Axl receptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptor_%28biochemistry%29) tyrosine kinase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosine_kinase) and stimulates cell proliferation or prevents apoptosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoptosis) in some cells. In all cases in which their function was known, the presence of the Gla-residues in these proteins turned out to be essential for functional activity.

Gla-proteins are known to occur in a wide variety of vertebrates: mammals, birds, reptiles, and fish. The venom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venom) of a number of Australian snakes acts by activating the human blood clotting system. Remarkably, in some cases activation is accomplished by snake Gla-containing enzymes that bind to the endothelium of human blood vessels and catalyze the conversion of procoagulant clotting fa