Hi.
It would take awhile to describe some non-lifting, depressing symptoms. Unfortunately, I am quite reluctant to get treatment as I feel I am confronting a lot of self-limitations and might eventually have to just go into retail despite my academic potential. I feel that low-level lifestyle is the only type I can maintain, though at times I have shown potential to write well and have received awards and been at the top of a prep school class and can put together good, sophisticated ideas.

I get terribly frightened that there is something more sinister wrong with me. I am a junior at an ivy league college and spend most of my time alone as I had to move back home due to finances. My parents live a quite unsteady life, rather lonely, and have a rather mixed up relationship. I am too afraid of failed past experiences, the difficult I am having at developing relationships, finding my strength and self-direction to try and form friendships or more, get involved on campus or care more about my work.

The step that I am trying to take and commit to is finding a knowledgeable therapist who doesn't jump to saying "maybe you can't" when I say that I have trouble writing a paper or interacting with people and figuring out deeper goals and interests. Am i supposed to settle for the fact that maybe I can only live my days like the stations on a radio? Flicking from interest to interest? Or am I too shocked from past experiences to even try getting involved in anything? Seeing my parents and a lot of family members unable to resolve their life conflicts again really depresses me and I feel rather caught in a life of just getting assignments and papers done, but ultimately in what feels like this dead-end of nowhereness.

I have very little hope and my strength is dwindling.

Is there a way to work on skills that ADDers don't seem to have? Might I also have something else...something related to mood that is biological, that if I don't accept I will always be caught in some pattern? I can explain more if this strikes anyone as anything not consistent with a basic diagnosis of inattentive add.

Blank, maybe writing down more specific problems, and taking it to your doc may be a good place to start..
Good luck, and keep browsing the forum for some great material that may help you

Blank,

First of all you got accepted to an Ivy League school, so you must have something going related to talent, intellect, etc. Good for you.

Second, you have to limit your solution space to the intrinsic components of your ADD. Your parents may be dysfunctional but that's an aside at this point. Your medical issue is not contingent on whether they are or not. You'd have it anyway even if they were totally squared away. So set that problem aside for a moment...

OK, so back to Ivy League. Is it an Ivy League school with a medical center? If so, seek out support from them. They see students all the time, and that includes students with psychiatric needs. So will no doubt be helpful and sympathetic. If there's no med center, then visit student health (that's a crapshoot) but at least try to get a referral to the local mental health service provider that assists students from your university.

And back to your parents. Well the are after all - your parents. Once you get yourself on track, you can try to find ways to steer them (and your family collectively) in a direction that is more loving and supportive.

About your fears. If it's the brain chemistry, you fix that and a lot of the other things will take care of themselves.

Best Wishes,

SteveM

The problem is I have not had much success with doctors. My father has been seeing a psychiatrist for 20 years and has been treated for a severe and unlifting depression. And I bring up my concerns, he probably needs to switch psychiatrists and as a 21 year old daughter with her own problems gearing her own life, I will be more involved than I wish.

I'm looking for a trustworthy psychiatrist. At the moment I see a psychopharmocologist and he's trying to optimize my med's. I am on tegretol and wellbutrin. Unfortunately these don't help as much as I would've hoped.

The things I worry about are my social tendencies and lack of defining myself. Perhaps this comes from drifting and dealing with a pain of inattentiveness. Perhaps it's something else. I have this intense anxiety in social situations as I don't feel like I can act like myself, or can partake in a full manner. I would have this clinginess and try and follow friends around and essentially be passive and rely upon activities and their own interests. I have difficulty directing and initiating my own experiences--from daily activities to larger plans. I can choose courses, but elsewise I fear I cannot get a life together, will be bound to be a bland and emotionless person. Perhaps I blow these tendencies out of proportion based on past experiences. I feel that these tendencies might limit what sorts of lifestyle that I could live (I would lack certain ability to hold my own in conversations and direct many aspects of my life, or maybe I am just developing this and can learn?)

Knowing about my inattentive tendencies helps as I can catch myself and realize that an experience is happening around me, but I still worry that some things are not necessarily part of add...or fixable...it's difficult to say...

Things that are frightening are my father's intense loneliness and his pacing about the house, just looking for a moment to spend time with me. He lacks a life of his own and disregards boundaries, disregards whether the situation is my moment of trying to sort out some painful and tough situation of the day. He simply takes these moments as cheerful moments of curing his loneliness and trying to bond with his daughter. This behavior worries me. I'm not sure if it's part of depression or attention deficit. My father calls my mother up always in "some crisis."

I try and focus on myself as not my father, as my friends convince me that I am not insane. I like to think I am just weighed down, preoccupied, and trying to shift toward a different way of interacting with people and finding a way to express and develop myself.

OMG Blank -

PLEASE don't even CONSIDER that your life is destined to be an extremely limited and miserable one. You have every reason to believe that might be the case considering the screwed up family system you've grown up in. (Yes - I'm assuming. But I'm pretty intuitive when it comes to these things . . . and you have offered up several CLUES.)

I understand how hopeless it can feel when you're looking for emotional or mental health help. There are LOADS and LOADS of "professionals" that are UNHELPFUL! Unfortunately - it is very common to have to shop around - and many times people that don't have trouble doing so will terminate therapy with one therapist after a few sessions when they know it just doesn't feel right. (I have trouble doing this, but at age 40, I finally did it! It was a good thing too!)

I remember when I was in my early - mid twenties I was incredibly hopeless and miserable. And although I had two parents that were alive and that tolerated my presence (and would even throw out a loving parental sentiment every now and then just to be confusing) - I now know (being in my 40's) that they neglected me on many important levels that left me feeling similar to how you feel.

Blank - if YOU are depressed, anxious, having problems with relationships, etc. - you absolutely CAN LEARN and live as full and joyful a life as you can imagine (and even more so). Just the fact that you are able to articulate those concerns so well gives you a HUGE advantage over many other young adults who will not become aware of their problems for many more years (or decades).

You are SO SMART to be thinking of finding a mental health provider. And again - shop around until YOU feel comfortable with someone. Also - because you DO have academic experience - you might also be able to access some helpful info regarding mental health issues on the Internet (I have). There are oodles of inspiring and healing books too. (Do you ever visit Barnes & Noble?)

Most of the time - healing and achieving things like having relationships, finding your passions, etc. do not happen quickly. As much as I hate hearing this cliche, I believe it is true: It's a process. Personally - I find supplementing my mental health improvement activities with inspiring books and/or participating in something artistic or creative AND doing something of my choosing (and NOT for a family member - especially a PARENT in your case) to help another person . . . all these things seem to contribute to whatever I'm learning in therapy or support groups (or whatever).

Please don't despair. And PLEASE try to protect yourself from your dysfunctional parents. There problems are NEVER the child's responsibility. What your father is doing to you is considered abuse in current mental health thinking. It is perfectly NORMAL for you to feel stressed out by him. If he's dinking around with a psychiatrist for 20 years - well, they are in a money-making business. And there ARE some mental health professionals who will do that sort of thing if a person can afford it. But it certainly isn't NECESSARY to grow and heal.

Oh gosh, I could go on and on. I hope you know that I sincerely want you to feel hopeful and to pursuit finding some quality help and support around how you are feeling. It makes sense that you feel weighed down, etc. (depressed) - and you can ABSOLUTELY feel MUCH BETTER! But - it might take some work (as it usually does for ALL OF US who won't settle for feeling like crap every day for the rest of our lives).

Feel free to private message me if you ever want to. I really feel for your situation. I believe I was in a similar spot at your age.

Sincerely,
Sue

Things that are frightening are my father's intense loneliness and his pacing about the house, just looking for a moment to spend time with me. He lacks a life of his own and disregards boundaries, disregards whether the situation is my moment of trying to sort out some painful and tough situation of the day. He simply takes these moments as cheerful moments of curing his loneliness and trying to bond with his daughter. This behavior worries me. I'm not sure if it's part of depression or attention deficit. My father calls my mother up always in "some crisis."

Your father wants attention this is obvious, you sound young {under 25}I am sorry but that is the impression I get from reading your post. . . . you father may have boundaries issues of his own. . . .like he doesn't know what boundaries are. . . . it is hard to acknowledge some thing if you do not know what it is. Your father may simply feel rejection and not realize it is a phase most young people go through. As young adults begin to look toward gaining a life of their own {which is mostly what the initial post is about} they naturally begin to push away from their parents. . .. it is a necessary part of gaining independence from parents. If parents do not know this it may feel like rejection thus the desire to bond.


In your post you indicate you are too busy for your father, he is at a different stage in his life. He may have problems letting go especially if you are the last child to leave the home. This can cause a parent to be "clingie".


I am sure some of the things you describe may be due to ADD and or depression I do not diagnosis. However wanting to find a parking spot in life is a pretty normal 20 some thing phase. Perhaps the issues with social anxiety may need to be addressed however you did mention in your post you had friends so obviously you do socialize on some level.

Blank,

A couple of last points and I’ll leave you alone.

I think you’ve done an insightful job of assessing your situation. I’m older than you, probably more like your Dad’s age. I saw a guy for ADD for the first time just a couple of months ago. He put me on medication which is working, but we’ve also had these “dialogues.”

During one conversation, has asked me what I do for a living (management consulting) and then asked me what about it I like. I told him the way I can hyper-focus on a client’s problem and then iterate on a strategy until I reach a creative solution. I find that very satisfying.

Well I also told him how I had spent the entire previous weekend tethered mindlessly to the internet including a lot of browsing the ADD news groups. I was really lost because my rational self could see me acting irrationally and I couldn’t figure out why. The incongruity was a killer. I was very distressed about that, so on that Sunday I upped my dose of medication on my own because of the frustration. That worked and I told the psychiatrist that too.

So then he says to me:

You are fundamentally a problem solver right? I mean that’s what you like to do.

Right.

And on Saturday, you were attached to the internet, reading ADD newsgroup content?

Yes.

And that disturbed you, so on Sunday to upped your dose of medication in hopes of improving your mood and behavior?

Yep.

So recognize this, you were actually in problem solving mode on Saturday not surrender mode. Your frustration was not driven by despair but by the fact that you couldn’t home in on a solution strategy. So on Sunday you took more medication. The important thing to remember is that problem solving in your personal life is like your problem solving in your professional life – iteratively and lurching sometimes, but advancing and converging on a solution nonetheless. That’s your fundamental orientation.

Blank, the circuitous point I’m making is that you advancing in school and probing for solutions for your condition puts you in problem solving not despair mode. Which is a good thing. The thing is, you have to actively reinforce that fundamental insight in your own mind to keep off the edge.


About some solution strategies, I agree you may want to seek out another medical provider who is open to considering other medications.

But two of the easiest ways to feel better on your own are to:

Exercise: especially with other people. If you can take an aerobics class with other students that would be great. If you can take a walk around the block (and get some necessary disengagement from your Dad) that would be good first start. My M.D. really believes in the mind-body thing. I concur. A little endorphin surge is a good thing. It really works.

Volunteer work: I used to make sandwiches for a homeless shelter on Wednesdays at this Catholic church in Washington. I went even when I felt crummy. The people who do that sort of thing are some of the most genuine and kind hearted. I always went home feeling better than when I arrived. I’m sure you’ll feel welcomed if you find a similar opportunity. There’s nothing like being made aware of people who are really miserable to give you a more balanced perspective of your own challenges.


One last thing. Sue characterized your Dad’s behavior as abuse. Unless he is somehow physically threatening you, I strongly disagree with that. (I inferred that he intrudes on your private time to mitigate his own loneliness.) Which is bothersome, but hardly abuse. If my reading between the lines is accurate, he has his own problems. The last thing he needs in the “abuser” label undeservedly attached to him and the attendent baggage that would attach in your relationship.


Chin up and Best,

SteveM

The issue goes beyond just my father trying to bond with his college aged daughter and perhaps my frustration is young. I am exhausted with having to deal with my father's moods, which he only now recognizes as problematic.

His behavior is irritating, but it is also concerning at times. And I am not posting simply to rant, I am posting because of how concerning it is and because my father cannot manage his life and puts his wife and therapist in positions that are not reasonable for full-grown, responsible adults (and this is also I guess what depression is about). My father could very well have add or something else. The therapists he sees are well-reputed but insist that they are doing good for my father, that he is doing better. My father has volatile moods, an intense loneliness, a lack of ability to pull from depression without becoming dependent on his other family members.

The way my father speaks of loneliness or what he speaks to me, his college-aged daughter, is what particularly concerns me. My father has complained to me that "we should be friends" because of his loneliness, because he feels trapped in his body (so this isn't father bonding with daughter, this is desperate lonely father trying to absolve some frightening degree of loneliness). I regret being put in such a position as I am trying to learn so much about how to get an independent life together, and it is hard living with unstable people while trying to work towards a college degree.

On top of that my father has this mood volatility and pattern of intense crisis where he calls his wife from work up to 20 times a day (my father has a high stress job, he's a doctor) but he talks about his inability, talks about such subsistence level concerns. He can be made happy by a simple hello or goodbye and be shattered by the same. I'm not sure what effort he himself is taking to overcome whatever ails him, but a lot rests upon his surrounding family members (he barges into breakfast one morning saying "it makes no sense. it makes no sense" and complaining of "violent withdrawals"

Usually the situation remains fragmented, and I am only articulating it here, to see if it suggests something alarming. But from what I hear you think it's a young adult trying to break away and a father's empty nest syndrome. I feel like it's more complicated, but am too tired to articulate this.

What I am more trying to do is focus on the choices that I myself can make. I am trying to not be frightened that I might have some biological disposition to be what my father is. It would depress me if I could only develop those kinds of relationships with my friends. I am trying to get a therapist in place so that I can handle the familial and self stress, as I am not strong enough at the moment.

The recent therapist I went to see would respond to my doubts about not being able to direct conversations, to study certain subjects or only being capable of sales with "maybe you won't." I am trying to deal less with the life that my parents have chosen, but am at a loss of how to get my own life together, if I really have to settle for certain things, certain self-limits that seem looming. My past is rather empty, dull, essentially a blackhole. If I were to base what strenghts/skills/goals I am going to set based on my past, I am not sure I could construct that satisfying a life (and it is difficult to say what I would mean by satisfying).

I guess I post because I am constantly aware of this underlying volatility which my father (like a three year old) is now recognizing as constantly shifting moods.
He became so anxious yesterday that he called up his doctor's coverage and she offered to put him in a day hospital, along with giving him xanax and klonopin. I feel as if he is also not being medicated properly, as of yesterday he was on xanax, klonopin, celexa and cymbalta. But the consensus is that he wants to give up working, go in a day hospital, and I don't essentially know what.

If anyone has opinions (that aren't self-righteous and zealous) about some sense they can make here that I can't or something else please say.

Blank,

As bad as it seems, at least he’s taking the first steps of acknowledgment. So your next objective appears to be to steer him to an evaluation by a fresh set of medical eyes. The day hospital sounds like a good idea if you are confident in the quality of the staff. Other referral pathways make work too. It’s not clear to me what his “doctor’s coverage is.” But if she’s not the person to provide a referral, could you visit one of his colleagues and get a referral to somebody else? If your school has a medical center, could you speak with a member of the psychiatric staff for some guidance? Does your community have a mental health advocacy center you can connect up with?

I know this is difficult, and you are saddled with responsibility that you shouldn’t have to take on. But with sick family members, that’s often the way it is. I don’t know the structure and dynamics of your family (siblings, aunts & uncles, your Dad’s wife!) who could/should be assisting in getting him help. But it seems like you feel an obligation to assume responsibility for this.

My mother was severely mentally ill with schizophrenia. What we learned at that time were the limits of intervention placed on family members based on (often illogical) laws that guarantee patient autonomy even when they are irrational, as long as they do not pose an imminent danger. So you can try to persuade your father and inform him of his options and hope for the best. Ironically, if he actually does view you as a “friend”, you may have the most influence in convincing him to take a new direction.

Best,

SteveM

Steve, thanks.

Problem is I have my own difficulties and as much as I say I can handle the rug pulling out from under me, I really can't get my mind to settle on papers, courses, what I am able to accomplish.

My dad's illness has persisted for 20 years. The reason I feel the need to be responsible is because his wife, my mother, has somewhat enabled his behavior and gives mixed messages. She blames him and gets angry whenever the subject of her not passing her licensing test (she needs to pass a licensing test in order to be a practicing psychologist) comes up (don't speak of the irony, there's a lot of awareness of the shame involved). In the past, he's gone on this starvation bit, and my mother simply complained, his therapist supported my father and didn't notice any concerning weight loss. This was when I was back in middle school being shallow and concerned with whether I could wear the appropriate colored shirt and try and not spend all night with my school projects (too elaborate, to hide my perceived inability).

Talking to my father does not help. He can't/won't fully own up to all that is bothering him, only when I nudge it out of him and tell him that I am only a college-aged daughted and not a therapist. It is confusing that he simultaneously expects me to be a daughter, savior of a friend and somewhat something along the lines of a therapist. It is I assume too much for my mother as well.

Unfortunately, I also use this as a way to not deal with my schoolwork and my own depressing focus problems. I go to class, resign to not focusing, to not really taking in the material, leave, don't summarize process or anything. Maybe this is all that I'm capable of.

Blank,

So you’ve created this narrative that you’ve painfully elaborated on. The question is whether or not you want (are prepared) to extend it as written, or have the will and the energy to screw up the courage and say, Enough! Getting back to an earlier post I sent, are you really in surrender mode or are you actually in problem solving mode but bitterly frustrated by a seemingly inchoate problem space?

If it’s the former, someone once said that if there are no alternatives, there is no problem. So the narrative would continue in its disconsolate evolution. But I don’t think you are there yet. Your intelligence and ability shine through in the way you write. And you wouldn’t be writing like that if despair had captured you totally.

I do management consulting for a living and one thing I counsel my clients on is that sometimes a fundamental problem cannot be solved directly. (Here, getting your father into alternative treatment.) People often have to address some intermediate or “meta” problems first before they can address the big problem. But meta problems are often abstractions that are harder to identify. So people fail to itemize and address them explicitly and end up in the frustration cycle of an ill defined solution space. I think a critical meta problem for you is isolation. The meta objective for that is connecting up with people who will listen to you and matter. Maybe that’s a counselor at school or perhaps a social worker who works with the mentally ill. Mental illness is exhausting both for the afflicted and their families. The more I think about it, the more contacting a county mental health organization makes sense. They can point you to supporting resources and provide you with an empathic ear because they have a unique understanding of what you are going through. I think once you fix this initial meta problem, you will start to connect the dots that address the broader issues you face. It only requires a phone call to initiate the pathway to a solution.

When shall we start?

SteveM

Steve,

(thanks for your words). You paint a no-lose situation (it would be too sardonic to say win win) which is eerily true. So ideally there should be only the lesser road, the road not taken coupled with some despair at having chosen that road over the other. Not a defeat. Fully.

But the way you paint it, the way I paint it, shouldn't be a means to legitimize a regrettable situation (which I post here because it is boggling and mind-numbing, and I'm sure it isn't, only to show that I have the power to take a stand and even by not taking a stand am weirdly continuing on). Yet...Why do I seem at some throe of despair?

I've been to numerous therapists over the years and could narrate other parts of the narrative--my own. These are rather elaborate and mostly involve attempted attempts to find a therapist who could help me with trying to gain some better habits lifewise and help me with the vagueness that often plagues me regarding less nearsighted, non-momentary issues. Often I have to do a lot of inductive (I think) thinking, trying to work from the negative space of what my mis-proportioned lifestyle lacks. And yet this persisting vagueness about what I need to work on coupled with this being largely attributable to inattentive attention deficit makes finding the support you mention quite hard.

Essentially the issues concern: trying to get my own life steady, trying to hope my parents can take care of themselves sufficiently and don't cave under the weight of their troubles (both for some still familial reasons and utiliarian reasons). The latter seems rather bleak at times, but it seems easier to bring something like this to a therapist, it is something there, concrete, something I need to come up with a resolution to keep to (being able to acknowledge and accept the way my father is and live under the surrounding conditions). The former part, the getting my own life steady is frustrating and becomes unduly frustrating.

I have tried to figure out ways to better process information--from conversations to my coursework. I have found a psychopharmocologist to prescribe a dosage of med's that though is probably the most optimal combo, only gives me 8 hours a day of a bit smoother (say 35%) concentration. I figure I'm somewhat like the character from the movie memento in terms of many things that I need to remember from day to day but can't. For a lot of the more procedural tasks (thinking about some large subject, writing a mammother paper) I will have to have write out the steps in some notebook. Otherwise, my attention problems sneak up and I am sent into drifting, decontextualized spirals and don't/can't get much done.

Getting help is also a bit terrifying as I feel that help will only highlight the strengths that I have and these at times seem quite few, seem like more mundane things. What I might really want to pursue but can't identify challenges my attention tendencies daily and it's hard to say what kind of progress I am making. Certainly not organizational. This is somewhat a point that will evolve, but something I need to begin to clarify and make real. Not something grand, something realistic and fulfilling. It is also hard to articulate skills here--these are limited by experience. As I said previously, the last therapist I saw definitely didn't help me see/test my negative impressions of myself and balance this with my limits.

So. Coupled with a blackhole of a past and the maelstrom of the present. This is only when I begin to think of giving up. As I really haven't found help that could really offer suggestions about some of my troubles with summarizing/thinking and how to address these. How to better direct conversations. How to more consistently do this. I am not looking for blueprints, only a bit of perspective, and a bit more than scheduling and hearing out my feelings. Difficult to describe. Lengthy to go into. I'll probably post on the therapy or coach board. But again, I'm sort of at an unclear juncture.

Fortunately, in two days I am on break so get to "rest" and think about this a whole lot more. hopefully some of these resources will materialize and i'll come up with some plans/strategies as well.
--x

Blank,

What you have described in a very personal way are the prosaic manifestations of ADD. I and many others have exactly the same kinds of issues. Same ingredients in the psychological stew, just in different proportions. But in the end, you gotta play the hand you've been dealt.


I read this book on ADD called Driven from Distraction by Edward Hallowell. He’s an M.D. at Harvard and also has ADD. He does a pretty good job of describing the state that you are in and he offers some good advice. One thing I like is the tone of the book. We often create very vivid melodramas when we articulate our narratives. He writes in an informal way that makes the ADD animal less menacing. An important piece of advice he embeds throughout is the danger of isolation or rather the benefit of supportive engagement. Which is an issue for me, because I value autonomy and have to balance that with the need for others. You may want to give that a read to help reset your perspective.

I think therapists are like venture capital opportunities. Only about 1 in 10 provide real value. I read someplace that many psychologists were subconsciously drawn to the business in order to analyze and better understand themselves. Their baggage perversely drags them into a profession where they are supposed to help other people with baggage. Now I don’t know if that is still true since the organic reasons for mental disorders are much better understood. But that said, the therapists I have visited just didn’t have a lot to offer. (Another reason may be that you are just smarter than they are.) Anyway, I’m afraid finding an effective therapist is a numbers game in which the odds of stumbling across a good one are kind of long. But venture capitalists still invest though…

I think I’m tapped out on what else I can offer so will disengage.

Again, I wish the best for you.

SteveM

The issue goes beyond just my father trying to bond with his college aged daughter and perhaps my frustration is young. I am exhausted with having to deal with my father's moods, which he only now recognizes as problematic.

It is okay to be annoyed by his intrusive behavior, even if it is due to being young.

I think you feel leaned upon at a time when you would really rather escape, this would be frustrating.

I try to see things in a proper light and try to avoid assigning every thing that is annoying a condition. . . .many really annoying things are perfectly normal.{off spring adolescence comes immediately to my mind.}

However it is you who live with him and you know much better than I do however I did want to throw out a scenario that would allow you to consider other possibilities that have nothing to do with neurobiological conditions.

I do appreciate your consideration of my perspective. I am sorry you are having to go through this.