OK I admit it...when I was on Ridalin....I was an addict and it got so bad to where i used up 60 pills in a week. So i took myself off of it and was put on Adderal(on my doctor's not so infanet wisdom) but it seemed to help me just as much as Ridilin and helped me get through Work and college back to back for two years....but having those long days I would always take more than what I was suppposed to. Even now that I am off both Adderall and Ridilin... I am on something milder(Dexadrine) and now my life is not so rush rush....I still feel the urge to take more than I need. I have tried non stimulants but they helped me not at all. Dexadrine is working great for my thinking and it's helping me alot and so maybe my low selfesteem makes me feel like I need more to keep going.

Not a problem at all.

I "abused" Pepsi for the sugar and caffine to keep me awake, not as a source of water.

The "reason" you used 60 pills, the dosage of each, is important, as well as your experience of the "effect." These are telling issues in addiction.

I do not crave my medication at all. You may be different.

I forget a dose, or two, or three...

i like levels of drug low enough that I miss out on all the side effects.

Different people respond to the same drugs differently.

I think the craving for it that i have is because i have low self esteem and i think I can not be better unless i am on it. If my selfesttem was better i would not crave it soo much I feel like i have to keep on going and I can not stop,.

The person I was before when I took ridalin doesn't really exist cause I find ways to fight temptation. Hope no one thinks less of me being an addict.

Even if you were an addict that doesn't make you any less of a person. We all have our issues.

Just the fact that you are aware that there could be a problem with the medication is a huge step.

Self esttem csn be tricky thing. I have a feeling that getting support from people here who have similar expereriences will help that.

Being in a program can help with self esteem, honesty recognition, and self acceptance, as well as self assurance (security) in what you do or try.

Attraction, not promotion.

AA, NA, Alanon, Etc.

thanks wheel will look into

I think the definition of "addict" is important here. 60 pills a week does sound like a lot, but the doseage of each pill is important too. Remember that the pills provide more dopamine to your brain, something that it is lacking naturally. The fact that you could stop indicates to me that it may not have been an addiciton. My guess would be that the ritalin was not working as well with your brain chemistry as the dexadrine does. I don't think that dex is "milder" than ritalin - but I have no direct experience with either yet. The dosage for almost any drug needs to be adjusted for the person - you may not be at the correct amount yet. I wouldn't worry too much about addiction. As with any controlled drug your Doctor should be watching your usage, and should notice if your pattern of usage indicates abuse.
I'd leave worry about stimulant addiction to him!
As for AA, NA or other 12 step programs - they will flat out tell you to stop taking anything that has addiction potential, but that is because often a substance abuser will switch from one substance to another. A good therapist on the other hand can help you with your self-esteem, without adding to your guilty feelings or finding it necessary to convince you that you are "powerless to control your addiction, so therefore you must give yourself over to a higher power". I believe 12 step programs have their place, but I'd wait untill your Dr suggests you go.
Best of luck.

Mellie,
Just wanted you to know that I do not think anything less of you and like Gregster said it might be an addiction. I am on Strattera and I have taken an extra 20mg on days that I am really tired. I have just added Adderall TR to the mix. I am going to take 80mg of Strattera and 30mg of the Adderall. I found Strattera helped to focus, but I still procrastinated. My doc thought the Adderall would help with the procrastination.
Sorry I got off track.

I am a caffeine addict, I know that is not as serious a stimulant, but Dr. Amen detests it... I have taken Hydroxycut when I was in college too, for the ephedra in it (banned now).

It is VERY hard for me to cope without stimulants in my life, at an addictive level or not.

Right now I am addicted to Barq's root beer. Might seem bubble-gummy to some, but it is the only pop that has caffeine in it that does not also have phosphoric acid, which is responsible (along with ADD failure to brush) for huge holes and occasional pains in my back teeth.

Originally posted by Gregster
The dosage for almost any drug needs to be adjusted for the person - you may not be at the correct amount yet. I wouldn't worry too much about addiction. As with any controlled drug your Doctor should be watching your usage, and should notice if your pattern of usage indicates abuse.
I'd leave worry about stimulant addiction to him!

I agree and support the above statements, outlooks and propositions. below, however, is a different matter.

As for AA, NA or other 12 step programs - they will flat out tell you to stop taking anything that has addiction potential, but that is because often a substance abuser will switch from one substance to another.

You will certainly find groups that will do as is stated above. But they are NOT correct, not supported by the tenants of the founders, the program, or good sense. There are groups where appropriate medication of any kind, properly taken is endorsed. In fact, as far as such things go, This later position is the official position published in Conference Approved Literature.

A good therapist on the other hand can help you with your self-esteem, without adding to your guilty feelings or finding it necessary to convince you that you are "powerless to control your addiction, so therefore you must give yourself over to a higher power". I believe 12 step programs have their place, but I'd wait untill your Dr suggests you go.
Best of luck.

It is my personal opinion that this statement and its intended implication are in error in material and significant ways.

"Take what you like, and leave the rest"

is not compatible with convincing anyone of anything, or of proposing anything out of context, either.

If you have any interest in 12 step programs for your addiction I would encourage you to visit some first, yourself. they are "free", none is there to convince you of anything, and if they are, move on.. they have the program wrong. You are not obliged to accept any doctrines, and you are not committed to anything that you may feel is inappropriate or for which you may not feel you are ready.

Finally, it is specifically AGAINST the programs tenants to give medical, or other advice. If anyone does, ignore it.

again, these are my opinions alone. i do not speak officially on behalf of or with any endorsement from any particular or general program what so ever. the opinions expressed are solely those of the person who offered them - mine.

Your millage may vary!

I appreciate the advice everyone:D i see the point about not having proper dosage the dexadrine is 10mg. and I find they work better when I take 10mg twice a day like prescribed but very close together and sometimes at the same time...and that is it for the day....well...errr sometimes. It's a working progess to fight temptation. As for my doctor is concered, he is the best and I have not really told him of my temptations with dexadrine although I have told him about the ridalin and adderall problems.
I think that could be why he keeping at a lower dose cause he can see I am doing well with it.

depending on your body weight and the particular effectiveness of a specific drug, the right amount may vary considerably.

discuss it with your doctor, your pharmacist, and never ignore your own sense of need for caution, but don't isolate, talk it out with someone else whom you trust.

Actually Strattera is the only ADD med in which the dosage is related to a person's weight.

Tara,
Is that for kids on Strattera? I am on Strattera and my doc mentioned nothing about weight. This is the first I have heard of this. Can you let me know.
Thanks,
Jim

I took stratterra for a month and did nothing but make me ill and did absoultly nothing for me. Could the be realted to my weight? My doctor never mentioned that either...but of course with my weight I don't think they would make so high a dosage..hehehe!

Body weight is used as an inference tool to roughly relate to expected blod levels...

blood levels are used as an inference tool to roughly relate to expected tissue levels...

Tissue levels are used for toxicity understanding.

Effective dosages for many things are considered to be "dose related" more drug, more effect, less drug, less effect.

However, other relationships exist, other profiles of drug efficacy and measurable concentrations.

So far measuring drug concentrations at the specific site of activity is largely impossible.

and all of this estimating makes many parts of this open to criticism, variation, error, or variance.

Finally, even for conditions like diabetes and drugs like insulin, person to person variations in responsiveness are wider than you might assume.

Rules of "thumb" are just guidelines.

Hmm that very intersting Wheel. Where can I read up more about it?

Originally posted by melanie_cartner
Hmm that very intersting Wheel. Where can I read up more about it?

It is all part of technical pharmacology.

I ran into some of it while doing a library research project on marijuana covering the then present back 200 years.

Obviously standards have changed....

One old example compared consumption of a marijuana paste similarly to drinking a strong cup of coffee... hmmm what does that say? (did our coffee change?)

To directly answer your question:

I'd go to a real medical school bookstore or library (in that order) and start there.

My experiences with plant hormone levels and their effects didn't hurt either, so that might be an avenue...

I read somewhere on line that weed is used to treat bipolar....then why did weed make me more hyper an depressed and made me cut myself up when I smoked pure strong weed?

I guess it depends on the person. I have never been tempted to abuse stimulants, including caffine. I've even been on phentermine for weightloss and could have taken as much as I wanted with the shady doc I had. I only took what I needed and got off when I can. I think lots, if not most, people with adhd or add are predisposed to addiction. I guess it just is a drug of choice thing. I think you mentioned bipolar or depression, and I could certainly see how a stimulant could help if you were sad and dragging.

Thank You Angie:) I am glad you don't have the same problems I have but I am glad everyone can understand where I am coming from. Hugs

Yea Mellie

I found I could use my dexadrine as a recreational drug and giving me a complete body stone and have a clear head at the same time.

Then add in two or three cups of good strong coffee first thing in the morning and I was set for the day

Fun while it lasted but very non productive and I also saw the downward spiral to my actions

Its an easy trap to fall into especially in Canada were my medication is free and my doctor told me to find my own dosage and gave me a very healthy prescription thats refillable every month

Errrrrr Um.....I'm Moving to canada:D hehe one problem I have is no insuancew and medicaid dont kick in until next year.....makes lot of sence eh?

Notice how anyone else hasn't admitted to addiction other than caffiene? I think there are alot more people out there than tells. I just started Adderall so I can't say I am addicted yet (2nd Rx). I am addicted to chocolate and caffiene and sweets.

I am sure we all have an addiction on some form or another ..but drugs and alchohol are a little harder to admit cause of denile to yourself or fear of judgement from others...I do have to admit it took a lot of hootzpah to admit I MAY have had a problem before. I always been able to recognize going to far with any kinda stimulant(amphets or booze) but only problem is I was able to recognize the problem after I did something too extreme and regreted it later..:eek:

i am addicted to food and i cant seem to stop. i wish i was addicted to a drug sometimes so i would stop eating less and have more energy. i have been on strattera for a couple months and the only thing i seem to notice is that it wakes me up in the morning. if i dont take it i literally cant get up. when i do take it i can get up the first time i try. i ve tried adderall and it hurts my belly and i tried strattera once before but it hurt my stomach and this time it doesnt. im also on lexapro and i dont feel anything from that either. ive tried clonzepam too and that doesnt do anything. at my last appt the doc said the next step is a mood stabilizer for bi polar. i just want something to help my mood swings and to help me be more focused and something to help me keep better organized and be able to sort my thoughts one by one when twenty are trying to come out. i took a test and it said that i wasnt having a prob with inattention but with overattention and that seems to make so much more sense. i never thought of it that way before. anyway my question is, am i looking for a drug that is nonexistant or is there something that will help me with those things. i feel like a fool going in to the docs saying well maybe this will work or maybe this is what i am feeling. or this isnt working and i dont know whats wrong. it seems like i cant even make up my mind about what i am feeling. i get so confused....help me!?

Those are tough times maiasmom. If things are bad enough that you are willing to go to any length to change you might try a twelve step program. It worked wonders for me but it took a long time to change those fundamental things I wanted so badly.

I still get caught with the odd binge on sugar now and again but for the most part the abusive behaviours are a way down. Smoking, drinking, doping, all have faded away. Eating well is the last frontier for me. Eating portions that are appropriate for how I'm feeling seems to be tough still.

I have very little sense of what I need. I'm just not that clued into my body and it's feelings. That sounds really weird but that's the way it is. I don't eat because I'm hungry necessarily for instance.

The reasons I did things to hurt myself were many and the road to healing those pains is an ongoing one. However I must say that things can change and life can be better.

I thought I'd be long dead by now and probably would be too if it weren't for some positive moves. The strength of those moves came from letting go though rather than applying more effort. A spiritual acquaintance and a practising faith of my choosing were key to beginning the process.

The meds will do what they do. Some may help and others may be a waste of time but we can all use more self esteem to give us the strength to keep trying.

Please keep in touch.
ian

yeah it is tough times. i cant help the obsession. its kinda a new one though. i went through the depression stage and ate but now i am not depressed but i am still going through the eating phase. i thought it would go away with the depression but it isnt. i am not in tune with my body either. i dont eat cause i am hungry and i know it. some days are good and some days arent. it is still weird thinking of eating as a real addiction like drugs, but it truly is. eating is only one of the bad things i have done to myself also, but thankfully it is the only right now. i often wonder how i have made it this far in my life, but obviously God is keeping me around for a reason. so i had given up on hurting myself in other ways. so i am here to stay. i went through a really good single moms group and it helped more than i ever thought. so much more than counseling or anything. and i think this site helps too. it is just such a comfort knowing there are others out there like you. i know i am rambling, it doesnt take much for me to get started. i am glad to have people to talk to . thank you

well when ya get into a habit like that...it's hard to just break out of it....Gawd do I know about that....:eek:

do you have problems with food too?

Ohhhh yeah...especially if I am bored or I just crave a lil sumfin sumfin more than usual:eek: as well as other habits...But when I was on Adderall and my father passed away.....I lost 50lbs in 5 months...depression and amphets is a wonderful diet but not recommended:eek: cause I got off adderall and said "Hello, I'm back to my size*mumble* pants.

Here's an interesting discussion on this topic I just ran across:
http://forums.about.com/ab-add/messages/?msg=8723.1

I think the point is that the meds might be providing needed and appropriate relief and that's not so terribly different from the effects during 'abuse' but it's the frame of mind that makes the difference. And obviously appropriate dosage. I think if you can get the frame of mind correct & be reasonable about dosage, that's they key. It's hard for me to think of the meds as not getting high and therefore hard to feel they are really helping 'cause I'm guilty & looking for a cheap high rather than looking for a sustainable improvement. The discussion relates this difference in expectations to stimulant poop-out, saying that tolerance may really be simply getting used to the meds 'cause you're feeling normal & not getting the high any more & missing that but if you relax & look for the real benefits & be patient, you may find that you don't really need the big high effect.

I've self medicated over the years & certainly some of that was for the pure high but there are therapeutic benefits as well. Getting from there to responsible medication use is mostly a frame of mind/attitude thing and it probably has a lot to do with relaxing and not feeling so desperate and having the confidence that with just a little help, you can be comfortable & don't need to go overboard, leaving reality behind. Looking for that middle-ground.

Not sure if this all makes sense, comments welcome.

The discussion relates this difference in expectations to stimulant poop-out, saying that tolerance may really be simply getting used to the meds 'cause you're feeling normal & not getting the high any more & missing that but if you relax & look for the real benefits & be patient, you may find that you don't really need the big high effect.

Exactly, My bosy gets used to the meds that I dont feel the general impact as before. It's like I never took it at all.

Maybe try riding through that phase & see if it's maybe actually working as it should but just not giving the high. I was talking with stabile about this & I think that's the point I got out of it. He's been on stimulants for years & managed to avoid the poop-out.

BTW 60 10mg pills a week is 85mg/day which is not necessarily an outrageous dose. OTOH 10mg of ritalin or adderal got me high.

was that when U first started it?

Some ppl say that the effect is still there but it just takes longer to kick in...but I can get sooo impatent waiting for it to kick in..that must be how it got started..Hmm

Yeah, my first 10mg ritalin got me high so I tried 5mg & maybe I just couldn't erase that association with getting high. I've heard the euphoria does wear off and it's more just simply effective after a while but people are so afraid of discussing it 'cause the whole getting high part is so loaded with guilt.

Anyways I don't think the stimulants were right for me, it made me more obsessive & hyperfocused. I found something else that doesn't get me wired like that & it took a few weeks to relax & feel like it's actually working & not just looking for that buzz. I mean feeling a little buzz is OK & nothing to feel guilty about but that's not the point so if you develop tolerance or have to drop the dose to where the buzz goes away, that's probably the best place to be. As long as I'm desperate though, it's the buzz I'm craving but if I relax & let things work out, I'm not desperate for a buzz, just happy to get some relief. At least that's the theory. It seems the only way to overcome an addictive approach & learn moderation but in addiction circles that doesn't go over well. There are indeed plenty of substance abusers out there who have learned to use meds in moderation.

Yeah...i have cause I dont want to go back to 60 pills in a week....I find taking Lamictal & dexadrine at the same time i get effects better even when My body is used to it..

Also, what we associate with getting high & feeling relief get mixed up. Sometimes the good feeling of being normalized on meds feels like getting high 'cause we never felt that relaxed contented feeling but there's nothing to feel guilty about feeling calm & level headed. These meds for the most part just activate our own natural neurotransmitters so even euphoria is not some toxic side effect. Maybe 'normal' people feel euphoria pretty much all day long in a way our anxious addled existence is unfamiliar with. How else could normals get through the tedium of life without a little natural euphoria to reward them & keep them focused? Relaxation? that's our natural opiates doing their job. When you live constantly tense, it feel alien to simply relax but there's nothing wrong with that.

Ack dont say normalized LOL!!!!! But ya know the motivation and clear thinking are helping a lot in terms of helping other and helping me figure things out on my own. it's weird sometimes that things hit ya like BINGO!!!!!!!!

The key is to feel some confidence that it's acually helping & there is lasting hope rather than that all-too-familar desperate grasping for a last chance at feeling relief for a few hours & feeling like it could never last & you have to grab for it.

I can try that and trying my best to think of things to keep self busy and not just on PC if Pills are close U know I am gonna want another one

I've recently had temptation problems, taking more than I should, staying up too late. It's definitely something you have to keep aware of. You don't want the cure to become a worse disease. Basically, anything that alters dopamine levels has the potential of being habit-forming or "addictive." But the ADD status quo when non-medicated is such a lousy state of mind, it stands to reason that once you find something that radically improves your condition, you might overdo it at first. I think I might switch to sustained release formulations to get rid of the temptation. Anyway Dragonlady, I definitely relate.

i thought i was the only one who felt they needed more of their stimulant medication for it to feel like it was working. a few weeks ago i found myself out of my adderall well before i was allowed to fill it. i ended up taking some of my sisters (not the first time :( ) and she found out and told parents. i decided to leave on my own for a little bit before they had the chance to call cops or kick me out. i've been at my friends house for the past two and a half weeks and decided i wouldnt go back home until i made myself get an appointment to start counseling to fix my problem. i've done the shrink thing in the past, and had major sucky shrinks so i was hesitant to do it again. hopefully it will all work out...just glad i found a place that i can discuss it without hesitation, only person before this site is said friend above

I've recently had temptation problems, taking more than I should, staying up too late. It's definitely something you have to keep aware of. You don't want the cure to become a worse disease. Basically, anything that alters dopamine levels has the potential of being habit-forming or "addictive." But the ADD status quo when non-medicated is such a lousy state of mind, it stands to reason that once you find something that radically improves your condition, you might overdo it at first. I think I might switch to sustained release formulations to get rid of the temptation. Anyway Dragonlady, I definitely relate.

You're Right I totally agree...but can't say the temptation isn't hard to fight especially when you have to keep going...But like I said...when I take Lamictal W/ it..Temptation isn't as much as opposed just to taking stimulants. I think it is going to be a tough battle all my life.cause truth and fact be known Stimulants are the only thing that helps w/ My ADHD...and now my doc increased me up to 30 Mg a day for dexadrine.

i thought i was the only one who felt they needed more of their stimulant medication for it to feel like it was working. a few weeks ago i found myself out of my adderall well before i was allowed to fill it. i ended up taking some of my sisters (not the first time :( ) and she found out and told parents. i decided to leave on my own for a little bit before they had the chance to call cops or kick me out. i've been at my friends house for the past two and a half weeks and decided i wouldnt go back home until i made myself get an appointment to start counseling to fix my problem. i've done the shrink thing in the past, and had major sucky shrinks so i was hesitant to do it again. hopefully it will all work out...just glad i found a place that i can discuss it without hesitation, only person before this site is said friend above

Welcome again to Forums Levyii....I think the more ya read threads U'll see You are not alone when it comes to ADHD....but I have to admit..U are very smart to recognize the problem and are determined to fight it...I hope it works out for ya and for your family. ;)

thanks! my appt is monday afternoon...am a bit nervous, and will probably be even more on monday. wish i could get lucky and find an awesome therapist like my friend has:(

I know what ya Mean....I finally lucked out and found a GREAT Shrink..but the others before him...Must have got PHD from a cracker jack box...Don't worry...You'll find the right one...It may help to do research on prospective therapist...ya know...background in education...talking to therapist one on one..etc. That how I Met my shrink....Talked 2 him over the phone come to find out he had his own website and laptop and Plaques and degrees all over the place....I knew from the get go this guy is a PRO and he actually works with me and gives me advice...Unlike the others:rolleyes:
and best of all....the sucky shrinks cost a Heck of a lot more than him. He even helped me at my Social Security Appeal...If it wasn't for his info I dont think I would have made it :D


So If Unlucky in life me can luck out to find a good doctor....hang in there and you'll find your's

I tried to avoid caffene altogether. However, I do have my days. My favorite is Mountain Dew"Of course!" Just last week I noticed exactly what you were talking about. The pain is crazy! Thanks for the thread. From here on out it's Root Beer
city for me as well!

For me the thing that's made the difference is I'm not getting something from a connect under a set of circumstances that are secretive and underground and dripping with illicitness...I always knew from way back that even though amphetamine was something I sort of loved to get my hands on, it wasn't the same lusty enthusiasm or pursuit that attached to this very dissolute period I had in the late 70s with weed and cocaine and liquor...amphetamine and ritalin, the rare and clarifying times I ran into them during the craziest times, had the strangest leveling effect, the feeling like, hey, I'm home, this is me, I'm not fighting anything, I'm not wanting anything, this is me...and when I started getting the script from a doctor of all people, and not some chick I knew who was working some croaker in the 80s for diet pills, fairly recently I might add, what a revelation, and what a different mindset...yet like you Draga, my first couple scripts were sort of, whoa, I'm all out, and it's three weeks to go to get a refill, what the hell happened???!!!...but now it's settled in that this is a tool, and I can keep going back, and talk things out with this doctor, and adjust the dose, and maybe add something like trazadone to cool the manic side, or whatever, know what I mean?...I mean it's not bungee jumping off a cliff with a very frayed cord any more know what I mean?...It's just figuring it out, relaxing, and looking at it as a permanent status, and relaxing...it's a phase you sometimes go through, but it's nothing to panic about or suddenly jump and say "Oh wow...am I an ADDICT or somethin?"

I was just born in the jittery shadow on non-normal. So naturally that which helps has a little of that which ails ya.

Know what I mean Draga?

Douglas, I know exactly what ya mean...I call the time when I am out of meds and a few weeks away from doc appointment...Break Period cause as It leaves my system but the time I get meds...Have ya noticed after you have not taken it for a while the first week or so....BAMMMM You are unstopable!

Forgiving me for asking..but are ya Bipolar as well.....Most Bipolar people have the nature to get hooked easily as well as ADHD...cause like I said....my bipolar meds help my cravings ......only one problem with that is....I am feeling the dexadrine so much that I forget I even need other meds HEHE.....but now I keep pills together so I can remind myself...Dont 4get lamictal...hehe! Somehow I think so much better on amphetes too.....I was soooo focused today I wrote a poem (scratch at first..then reset the verses and changed a few stanza's here and there.....The finished product is the last one on my poetry thread) then after that...rearranging PC desk furniture and now 3 hours later it is WOW.....Me thinks meds are defientely working today...any other time I would have never been this motivated....Heh!

I haven't been diagnosed that way. I don't know Draga. When I take the meds that seem to "normalize" me, the ups, it sorta puts me into the bipolar mode without my being naturally there, if that makes sense...I mean I'm not manic at all in my unmedicated state...unmedicated I am low motivation, hard to fall asleep, hard to wake up, hard to feel enthusiastic, mentally "sticky," coffee always the only thing that could get me into any kind of tasking mode...now when I do Ritalin, which is what I'm on now, the WAKE UP is thrilling, and in the first few days I have to try hard not to pull all-nighters, then it evens out...plus I am a writer too, and a photographer, and I'm older than you and have had some success getting published in mainstream venues, particularly in the mid-90s, so since I've been dormant for this particular period, I sort of have this problematic relationship with my meds, I sorta feel like my next inspiration is sitting in the bottle, if ya know what I mean, which is not the way to feel, but there is some basis for actually feeling that way...you know, like you feel the dim embryonic "mood" of a creative something taking shape in the tattered neurological curtains of your brain, and you know when you take that Dex or Rit and you don't overdo it, it truly is the weaving wonderment of embroidery that unsticks the goo in there, and a flow begins to flows, and how can you not dig it! You know? Because you live for that interior world, or worlds, that for whatever reason is up there, in there, and the complexity of your creative being is somehow tied to your malady, this condition, this ADD of today, which will be called something else tomorrow, and this med is your buddy, it works, but it's tricky, as anything that intrinsic to your wholeness can be, like the Lover you love with all your heart, all the time, but man, sometimes you don't like him (her) (it), because the power of the love blinds you to those down sides, but you have to go for it, don't you?...because the flip side is what Oliver Sacks called the Ontological Abyss, the existence of someone frozen alive in their dopamine depleted brain, the very absolute extreme of extremes, the far end of Parkinson's Disease, those frozen souls he wrote about in Awakenings.

Personally, I like traversing this particularly tightrope. My moments are so full now. I can't quite talk about this adventure to the normies that surround me, but I got you and the others on this forum. Though I gotta say I've read a lot of your posts and there is a feeling of kindredness I sense with you, with your moment to moment private dramas, your basic consciousness. There is a certain beauty about people with these sort of symptoms and an unusual creative flame burning beneath the surface.

Feel free to send some private messages too.

I haven't been diagnosed that way. I don't know Draga. When I take the meds that seem to "normalize" me, the ups, it sorta puts me into the bipolar mode without my being naturally there, if that makes sense...I mean I'm not manic at all in my unmedicated state...unmedicated I am low motivation, hard to fall asleep, hard to wake up, hard to feel enthusiastic, mentally "sticky," coffee always the only thing that could get me into any kind of tasking mode...now when I do Ritalin, which is what I'm on now, the WAKE UP is thrilling, and in the first few days I have to try hard not to pull all-nighters, then it evens out...plus I am a writer too, and a photographer, and I'm older than you and have had some success getting published in mainstream venues.

Other than being publised and differences in age....Dats only difference out of that...I do soo want to get published for my poetry and essays and short stories, but can't find free publisher and dat not good for a Po Southern Belle Mel......

Personally, I like traversing this particularly tightrope. My moments are so full now. I can't quite talk about this adventure to the normies that surround me, but I got you and the others on this forum. Though I gotta say I've read a lot of your posts and there is a feeling of kindredness I sense with you, with your moment to moment private dramas, your basic consciousness. There is a certain beauty about people with these sort of symptoms and an unusual creative flame burning beneath the surface.

Blushing like a school girl.....Thank You....that got to be one of the best compliments I have ever gotten...You definetly have a gift 4 words yourself....Funny...Words are the most powerful forces on this earth...Use exactly the right way...I can open peoples eyes to truth(my fav use)....give inspiration and strength...make people feel good abouth themselves when are down......BUT just as it can be a builder of self worth...used the straight and to the point....could drop ya lower. Gotta love the gift :)

Thanks for the response. Am at work today, a place that I don't want to be, cold calling businesses...hate the jobs I end up getting cuz my projected image is very white collar and professional and under that thin veneer is somebody who wants to write Cormac McCarthy style urban tales...which maybe now that I'm in this mental zone of positivity I'm looking for jobs that don't distract me and add to the problem...talk to you later....

Good Luck w/ that shugga...To say work sucks is a gross understatement....when i was able to work....It just Sucked the creativity out of me! Meds Only thing that kept me from Scr....errr....well no I did do that.....Well I didn't pull my.....Errr No I did that too....Awe hell it got me through the day w/o going postal! :D

Changing jobs as of this monday. Will email you details.

Awesome....Looking forward to it :)

Hi Melli,

I am new here but, i have a question about your stratterra use. Do you ever get headaches? I been on strattera for over 6 months and it still gives me headaches. My doctor dose not want to put me on other stimulant because my abuse tendency, i.e., I am always trying to find new ways to loss weight. I am suppose to be taking 50mg a day. but normally i just take 25 mg or none at all.

I would ask your doctor about Adderall XR. The condition of ADD is in itself a driver of addictive behavior, so it's a kind of bad Catch-22 situation. He is denying you a class of medication because of your addictive tendencies, yet with the proper dose and formulation (i.e., a time release form), you would more than likely benefit and be less addictive.

Even if you overdo it a bit the first month or two, as I did, the tendency is to settle into taking it as directed, because you are always going to see the doctor and get a refill, so it's not like "scoring" to get high.

The Strattera sounds like all side effect and no benefit, which seems the rule rather than the exception. I just don't think it's a good drug.

If your doctor is just flat against it, find another doctor. There's plenty out there. But he should allow you to try the others. If you end up abusing it, at least you explored it. Just go back to him and say you have the tendency to take too much and try something else.

Concerta is one I know from experience is very smooth and long lasting and you hardly know you're on anything. That and Adderall are the safest as far as being stimulants but with very little "buzz" to them.

Anyway let me know how it goes.

I agree with Douglas. Another thing you could try is wellbutrin but really you probably need to find another doctor unless you yourself are seriously concerned about abusing stimulants. You would have to find a source on the street & buy more illegally to accomplish any significant harmful abuse so really getting it through a prescription is fairly safe. Melly says she's used up her scrip early before but then you go without for a while so it's not like being a serious addict & you should know whether you trust yourself to get in that situation & not know when to pull out. Frankly you could go to a liquor store and get much better high than stimulants if you were prone to addictive abusive behavior. At therapeutic doses, stimulants are more like drinking coffee and actually less physically harmful and less addictive so I think your doc is being overly cautious.

I take 400 mg of Welbutrin a day, 300 mg of trileptal, and 50 mg of strattera when i can remember. I asked for Adderall xr and he said, not right now. Yes, I have been looking on the streets for legal stuff that i can take. And i do have an appointment with another doctor in two weeks. I may cancel it because, I am fraid the new doctor will think i am just looking for a high. In addition, I am more afraid he will ask to see my past medical records. I have a embarrassing file with 5 year of mental and emotional problems. That was another life and things are different for me now. I am too embarrassed to have someone review them. I do not feel like answering any questions about my past or review that dark Hell hole again.

Hi Melli,

I am new here but, i have a question about your stratterra use. Do you ever get headaches? I been on strattera for over 6 months and it still gives me headaches. My doctor dose not want to put me on other stimulant because my abuse tendency, i.e., I am always trying to find new ways to loss weight. I am suppose to be taking 50mg a day. but normally i just take 25 mg or none at all.

Um, I am not taking strattera anymore...I just took it for a 1 1/2 months like recommended..but when I took it yes I did get headaches and was exhausted and not to mention sick if i did not eat enough food.

I know whatcha mean when it comes to losing weight, I lost a lot when I was on adderal and my father had died..depression and stimulants makes for a effective diet...but not a recommended one.

I also happen to agree with douglas...and I happen to have lost cravings a lot less with dexadrine (which I find for me, milder).and lamictal*(for bipolar). It's almost like they balance each other out.

Oh Btw, Welcome to the Forums, :)

When I went to my present doctor I told him all about my personality traits that clearly added up to ADD without hyperactivity. I did not tell him about my alcoholism because I have been sober for five years and if I did I think he would have been reluctant to give me the current med I take that is a great benefit to me.

If you go to a new doctor, you don't have to tell him everything. Unfortunately, like the IRS, they create situations where it is sometimes in your best interests to "omit" certain things. This is one of those situations.

Ultimately it's up to you. You don't have to say anything about past treatments or problems. If they are basically closed issues, move on. If your present symptoms--distractibility, inability to focus, failure to follow through, procrastination--are chronic and affecting your quality of life in a chronic way, focus on those things when you talk to a new doctor.

Keep it simple. The other stuff is over with. I wouldn't bring it up. And don't ask for a specific med. Take whatever he gives you and if it doesn't work, say so, and you'll move up to the next one, instead of being stuck with Strattera like you are now.

I personally do not care if the doc knows or not.....I rather have him know the deal than have him prescribe something that make me plummet head first off the wagon...I just tell him what worked for me before and that I may had a problem in the beginning but I have learned to control it....which I have...but not saying I don't feel the temptation at time but i usualy keep myself busy enough to where by time I slow down its too late to even take another one...

BTW Doug, Hows the new job?

Ah ya know it's a call center job...kind of job where you sit in a cubicle and make 200 calls from 7 in the morning till 3:30 and maybe you talk to 20 or 30 prospects and most of them say they're not interested.

I'm selling websites to real estate agents. And I happen to be a licensed real estate broker here in California though I haven't been active for four or five years. So I'm talking to people in a profession I understand from A to Z.

Nonetheless the numbers game sort of tires me. And the carrot on the end of the stick never seems to turn into what they say your "potential" is. I mean yes I could make 5-7k a month. But I can see that it's going to take learning to deal with the monotony and the rejection and to just go zenlike and have no sense of past and no sense of future.

Just dial numbers and talk, dial numbers and talk, and be ready to slide into some kind of presentation, and if you sell something you sell something, and if you don't you don't, and just roll and don't think about nothin...

Let's put it this way, I'm giving it six months. Let's put it another way, I'm on the internet all day and I take little breaks in my seat if you know what I mean and the bosses are cool and I'm left alone...

It's okay.

What're you up to these days Draga? Is it legal?

As long as I dont get caught....yes it's legal :p JKin.......If you consider doating on my mom and hanging on computer all day fixing it up and whatever other kinda mischeif online i can find illegal den heh lock me up, babay Hehe, I just NEVER go into regedit w/o dexadrineL:eek: NO WAY! At least I am learning and maybe if when I learn enough I can start over again......w/o a boss but me:D

Hey, guys:

We've been watching this thread for a while, and I'm puzzled about the terminology you're using.

There seems to be (here, in this particular thread) a general acceptance of these ideas:

* ADDers tend to have 'addictive' personalities;

* Adderall and Ritalin have potential to be addicting;

* addiction is something like a strong habit, perhaps with an associated craving, perhaps with an associated deficit of will power.

These ideas are contested in other threads on a semi-regular basis. I'm familiar with many of the posters here, and I'm really interested in trying to understand what combination of experiences brings you to use these words this particular way.

So far none of these posts describe an actual addiction, and the tolerance mentioned seems to be the usual atypical experience that ADDers often report. ('Usual atypical' – how ADDer can you get?)

Kay and I have been outspoken champions of correctness in how we use these words. Over the last several years there have been frequent attacks in the media on ADDers and our drugs, particularly the stimulants. So we think it's important to fight 'terminology creep' wherever we see it.

But this thread certainly isn't any hotbed of misinformation, and we know too many of you to be alarmed by it, regardless of how you're expressing yourselves. There isn't really anything to complain about, so we watched.

We've noticed an interesting phenomenon in these forums, something Kay calls a "cultural disconnect." If we carry on several conversations in different sub-forums, we sometimes find ourselves establishing a new context even if the cast of characters is pretty much the same.

I'm classically bad at remembering names precisely because I identify everybody by recognizing the patterns I see in their actions and speech. I have to hunt around to be sure, but I usually realize halfway through a post that I know who wrote it.

By that time the context is usually set, and we all go on with a slightly different relationship than we've established in other threads. Very curious, and also very ADD, I suppose.

So what do y'all think? Have you run across any of the threads where we all beat to death the ideas about our drugs being addicting? Is the way that you've been using the term habit, or cultural, or have you maybe thought about it for a while and decided it fits?

We aren't trying to rustle the thread, and if it turns out there's anything significant to talk about we probably should start a new one. But we didn't want to sacrifice this little cultural context by starting out fresh; we were afraid we would have lost the common vocabulary and understanding that interested us in the first place.

Thanks. –Tom and Kay

-----------------------------------

BTW, Mel: why do you say that Dexedrine is milder than Adderall? If I recall, Adderall is two different salts each of l-amphetamine and d-amphetamine.

The salts all have different absorption rates, so you get four little humps in blood level which spread out and tail off over about 12 hours. In us, the peaks are relatively early and the tail is pretty long, which is about how it was designed to be.

We time two half-doses so that the peaks fill in the valleys from our morning dose, with a combined useful effect lasting about 14 to 16 hours.

When we took courses about this stuff, the levo- isomer (or a mix predominantly consisting of l-amphetamine) was simply called amphetamine, the dextro- isomer Dexedrine, and so on up through a whole hierarchical family of related compounds.

The d- isomer was considered significantly more active than plain ol' amphetamine, which is why the formula for Adderall contains an unbalanced mixture of the two isomers.

But overall, it should be milder than Dexedrine, which I understood was also one of the design goals. So your experience is interesting to us; neither of us has had any Dexedrine since the late sixties, when we were in school, and that's a long time to compare over. –T&K

I say that ....well...for me dexadrine has less of a kick to it, possibly cause i have built a tolerance for it....on adderall and ritalin...I could go all night and then some..It really all depends on if I have been out of dexadrine for a time and finally can AFFORD to get more....at first the effects are like taking adderall or ritalin..but after a while it's like.....eh where's me omph where as adderall...*sings..aint no body gonna break my stride..ain;t nobody gonna slow me down oh no! I gotsa keep on moving.* Since medications have different effects....and also on adderall I had no appetite at all but on dexadrine..I still have one.


GREAT NOW I AM GOING TO HAVE THAT IN MY HEAD ALL NIGHT......time for winamp magic!:D

not everyone is going to react the same way I do, this is just me...heh.

Some of us are accustomed to thinking of drugs as intended for getting high so it's hard not to think about getting high when taking them. Early on I was given prescriptions for ritalin & adderall & didn't find they provided any magic cure for me so while I gave up on the therapeutic use, I went ahead & used them up recreationally.

So then I was put on effexor which I hated & gave up on the doc & ordered some stuff online that's similar to the stimulants but even more euphoric & pleasant though theoretically not with as much potential for abuse. I played with those trying to get high too because it's my habit to do so but mostly settled on a low dose that seemed therapeutic because that was the whoile point.

Recently while visiting arizona I popped over to mexico & got some ritalin & antidepressants and benzos (sedatives with abuse potential). I've also played with the ritalin again to see if I can get high & really it's not that big of a deal. I popped a bunch of extra while driving long distances on the road trip & it did help me stay alert but really in terms of getting 'high' it was nothing impressive. I've tried speed & cocaine years ago also & was not terribly impressed. If I want to get high pot is much more euphoric & pleasurable or just plain old alcohol.

I think the combination of the ritalin & antidepressants is much more therapeutic for me than the ritalin alone.

Some people do abuse and really enjoy popping speed but more often the real addictive stuff is associated with smoking crack cocaine or meth or shooting it up (something I'd never do). Apparently that is a whole different effect involving intense euphoria and causing incredible cravings making people stay awake for days then crashing for days in misery. Those addicts are really in bad shape with horrible sores on their skin & very bad health & psychotic paranoia, etc.

From what I can tell (and that's just me) popping a few extra ritalin or even snorting it isn't a big deal at all. I'm someone who when I get some pot will just keep smoking it daily, maybe even sometimes at work or on weekends all day long constantly. I drink heavily in the evenings but not during the day. Maybe that's all just bad habits or poor moral character or maybe it's self medication for a brain that feels anxious unmedicated. I've got some uncomfortable childhood memories I might be trying to extinguish the pain from but I think I've done my best to work through that in therapy as best as I can.

I think it is commonly accepted that ADDers often have the potential to become addicted to and or abuse drugs. I don't think that carries over to presription stimulants though. That is such a more mild experience than hard core drug use. I won't say it doesn't happen but I think it's rare.

I think Americans can be such prudes about drugs. And hypocrits because alcohol is extremely powerful and addictive but a little speed with the equivalent effect of three cups of coffee is considered a felony narcotic.

The stuff I ordered from overseas is not approved by the FDA (but also not illegal to posess) because I'm sure it simply feels good and that can't be allowed. No icky side effects, just makes you feel good and like I said, we are such prudes about that it is ridiculous.

The traditional stimulants have adrenaline in them as well as dopamine & the adrenaline assures that if you take more you get all nervous & jittery but the pure dopamine stuff is much nicer with just the pleasant part and less of the jittery crap. The basic explanation you hear for ADD is that it's treated by adding dopamine to the frontal lobes, not adrenaline! Strattera is adrenaline without any dopamine & it's full of crappy side effects. The two are related so sometimes strattera works but basically it's a crap prude solution. IMO.

I do recognize though that there will be some people who could possibly be pulled into further cravings by trying prescription stimulants but I think that's a very small number. They would ultimately have to seek out illegal sources because a prescription simply doesn't supply enough to support any sort of serious addiction. Still, I think it's much simpler & cheaper for such a person to go to the corner liquor store for their kicks.

Hi everyone, Thanks for your welcome Draga. Well I spent all night perfecting a letter to my doc about why I need to try another med besides Strattera. I dropped it off today so all i am doing now is waiting to see if he responds. I still have appointment with the new doc in two weeks. I will cancel it if my doc gives me something new.

As I mentioned before, i really do not want to see a new doctor. All i want is something to help me live a normal life. Yugh........

It's an undeniable fact that a large percentage (I seem to recall it being about 1/3, but don't hold me to it) of all diagnosed ADDers are or have been addicted to some substance or another, in the technical, DSM sense. I would wager that a significant fraction of us have also taken up interests or hobbies, with the typical ADDer hyperfocus or overfocus turning them into near obsessions. Those two things are what I think is meant by "ADDers have addictive personalities." (Of course, this doesn't even take into account compulsive gambling, shopping, etc, which do have DSM codes, as well, but I believe my point is made.)

It's also well-established that amphetamine, dextroamphetamine, methamphetamine, and methylphenidate, can all be addictive and lead to the behaviors listed under the DSM code for addiction. Ritalin/methylphenidate is probably the least addictive of the bunch, but it can create the euphoric feeling that leads users to continue to abuse the drug.

I would define an addiction as a set of behaviors and associated feelings surrounding those behaviors as listed in the DSM-IV-TR.

How's that for precision? :D

Thanks for the responses, folks. They are frank (Paul's especially) in exactly the way we hoped.


It's an undeniable fact that a large percentage (I seem to recall it being about 1/3, but don't hold me to it) of all diagnosed ADDers are or have been addicted to some substance or another, in the technical, DSM sense…
But of course, we have to hold you to it. (grin…)

We've never seen anything that quotes a stat like that; we're not denying it, but we need you to tell us where it came from, at least point us to the study with the numbers, before we're willing to consider it fact.


I would wager that a significant fraction of us have also taken up interests or hobbies, with the typical ADDer hyperfocus or overfocus turning them into near obsessions. Those two things are what I think is meant by "ADDers have addictive personalities."
This is what we found interesting about the posts in this thread, and a great example of what we're trying to understand.

Allowing for the moment the idea that 30% of us or so are or will be addicted in the DSM sense, it is not at all the same thing as obsessing on a hobby to a fault.

Even if the obsession becomes so great that it meets the DSM criteria for something like OCD, casually lumping the two distinctly different disorders together under the single term "addiction" (or calling it "addictive behavior") steps across a line.

The problem is exactly what we said, terminology creep. Addiction has a formal definition. Saying it is related to OCD is false. 'Related' is another formally defined idea that needs to stay in the DSM if it applies to OCD. Saying that there are superficial similarities in how they are evidenced probably is true, but also why we have licensed professionals do the work of sorting them out.

So the casual use of the technical term risks misinterpretation, for precisely the reasons that you need a degree and a license to diagnose. And that is why we think it's important to use other terms for these things, more appropriate to casual use, and not so likely to be misinterpreted and in turn misapplied.


…It's also well-established that amphetamine, dextroamphetamine, methamphetamine, and methylphenidate, can all be addictive and lead to the behaviors listed under the DSM code for addiction. Ritalin/methylphenidate is probably the least addictive of the bunch, but it can create the euphoric feeling that leads users to continue to abuse the drug…
Well, no. It's not well established at all. If you feel it is, please tell us your source. Our little circle of friends and acquaintances that are paid to know this stuff do not consider these statements to be either well known or true. We regularly look for (and fail to find) convincing studies that back these ideas, and pester people to tell us one more time it ain't so, in their informed opinion.

Which they do. When we took courses on exactly this stuff, we were taught that there is a hierarchy of both effectiveness and abuse potential, starting at the bottom with amphetamine and moving up through Dexedrine and the other related compounds.

We were also taught (with an exasperated demeanor) that Ritalin is not in the same family, and is not a part of the hierarchy or anything else that we might know or think we know about amphetamines.

What is well known is that there are significant differences in patterns of abuse of the different compounds, that social circumstance plays perhaps the largest role in determining what happens, and the popular conception of the 'facts' about amphetamines are an impediment to the correct practice of medicine.

The popular ideas do seem to have a life of their own, though, and so our interest in understanding how they arise.


…I would define an addiction as a set of behaviors and associated feelings surrounding those behaviors as listed in the DSM-IV-TR.

How's that for precision? :D
Well, it is precise, we'll give you that. And thanks for that; it's exactly what we needed.

Succinct also comes to mind, but I'm afraid it's not accurate. (more grins…)

This is the interesting bit again, the same pattern of interpretation of formal definitions, pinned in place by the precision. Really, thanks for being so candid (all of you), a true ADDer trait if there ever was one.

The problem is the 'set of behaviors and associated feelings surrounding those behaviors as listed in the DSM' part. The behaviors are listed; changing that isn't allowed. Whatever you get is by definition different.

There are probably a dozen formally defined ideas you could name with a few minutes effort that you wouldn’t consider using loosely.

Speed limits are what they are, and exceeding the limit cannot be mistaken for obeying the law. Do it or not, nobody has any illusion about it.

NTSC television signals are exact and precise to a particular degree, and you would feel perfectly correct about complaining if your local stations failed to meet the specifications of the FCC.

The station might argue that they are broadcasting, but few people would allow the technical truth of the application of the term to cloud their perception of technical truth of the FCC's application of the term. Such an attempt to twist the truth would be considered deceitful by most of us.

If you built a small TV transmitter, you would probably have a more relaxed take on the NTSC spec. It's doubtful hobby built equipment would meet the spec, which is why there are relaxed versions of various bits of it when applied to strictly private use (but not actual broadcasting).

And none of this would confuse anyone. Nobody with the wherewithal to put such equipment together would confuse the two, the specific FCC technical use and the relaxed hobbyist use of the idea of TV transmission.

And for the most part, nobody else has any idea what NTSC even refers to. Maybe that's what we’re looking for, the reason that everybody gets into the mix on this. The fact that everybody is going to use these terms regardless of their ability to interpret the use mandates the creation of a different term for casual use, in our opinion.

Thanks again. –Tom and Kay

I would say, without being able to scientifically prove it, that while certainly not all ADDers have moderate to serious addiction proclivities, almost all people with addiction problems have ADD and/or overlapping co-morbidities (ie depression, bipolar, etc.)

People who become addicted (doesn't matter what the addictor is) are always responding to some kind of chronic mood deficit.

What frustrates me is how our society demonizes the behavior and characterizes the taking of an illegal drug as "immoral" and therefore criminal.

Anyway that's my general feeling or theory on the relationship between addiction and ADD. Not that I necessarily have a clue. But I've been around a lot of addicts and alcoholics. And when sober, they sure fit the profile. But they work "the Steps" and are too frightened of their nature to even consider something like Adderall, which would probably work small miracles on a certain segment of the group.

I do recall reading somewhere recently that a high percentage of addicts have ADD. That is different than saying a high percentage of ADDers are addicts and I think is the more correct generalization. Sorry no sources to quote.

douglasbrooker I am one of those that worked the steps and took way too long to try the meds. I did not understand how such dedicated attention to the program still had me landing on my butt.

A few short months into the meds I left the program and have not been back. I no longer have a desire to stop drinking so I don't qualify as a member of course.

The sad thing is that the best thing that I might do for the group I came from is fail to succeed. There are a few that remain in contact but for the most part I'm seen as a danger to others as I can't possibly be in my right mind.

Within those 12 steps there is no acknowledged precedent for what's happened to me as far as I know. I'm not having the same response to dope and drink like I once did. I'm grateful for sure but a little sad to believe that there are so many others out there that might benefit from a little speed.

Speed of course never appealed to me as it was kinda mellow. Oh that hindsight!
Cheers! Ian.

douglasbrooker I am one of those that worked the steps and took way too long to try the meds. I did not understand how such dedicated attention to the program still had me landing on my butt.

A few short months into the meds I left the program and have not been back. I no longer have a desire to stop drinking so I don't qualify as a member of course.

The sad thing is that the best thing that I might do for the group I came from is fail to succeed. There are a few that remain in contact but for the most part I'm seen as a danger to others as I can't possibly be in my right mind.

Within those 12 steps there is no acknowledged precedent for what's happened to me as far as I know. I'm not having the same response to dope and drink like I once did. I'm grateful for sure but a little sad to believe that there are so many others out there that might benefit from a little speed.

Speed of course never appealed to me as it was kinda mellow. Oh that hindsight!
Cheers! Ian.
Itschaotic,

I was a decade into AA, from 1989 to 1999. They're a good case study I think as a fulcrum point of the gradual inch-by-inch progression of scientific knowledge replacing "faith" and "belief" as an actual foundation of treatment.

To non-alcoholics and non-addicts, AA and NA are regarded as actual outpatient style "treatment" of the disease. Yet there is rife resistence on the most basic prejudicial level to the very idea of an obsession to drink or use dope as "disease." The "Program" is full of slogans and passages in books that continually pound into the hapless heads of addicts and alkies that the Program only works "if you work it."

You are told if you don't work the steps you will never make it, you will not achieve permanent sobriety. You must, according to Step 3, turn over everything to God or a God of your understanding...or you will relapse, you will fail.

You must, according to some other Step, makes amends to everyone you ever hurt due to your drinking...or you will relapse, you will fail.

You must get a "sponsor" who will make you write insipid essays about each step, and that, essentially, is what they mean when they say "working a step."

You must replace your every day vocubulary with the lowbrow psychobabble that pollutes every meeting during the "sharing" part of it. Instead of "How are you?" you say "You working a good program?" Instead of "He doesn't know what he's talking about" you say, "He's taking my inventory." Instead of "It's one of those problems I just have to put out of mind if I can," you say, "My sponsor said to put it in a God Box."

Make no mistake about it. An obsession to drink or use other addictive drugs that is beyond your ability to choose otherwise is a DISEASE. Unfortunately, the treatment of choice and even court-ordered, is the mandatory attending of these meetings, which are nothing more than sobriety clubs wherein those who have somehow stayed sober in spite of however many years they used to drink self-destructively say they did it because they "worked the Steps." And who is there to gainsay them?

An atheist like me who got sober by taking antabuse as a deterrent and started looking at psyche meds as a possible treatment is never there to suggest otherwise.

People who believe in God believe AA works. Most people in America believe in God. In America, huge programs and government policies are based not on compassion and scientific curiosity, but prejudice and punishment and ostracism.

Alcoholics and addicts are not put in hospitals or outpatient clinics. They are arrested and put in jails and prisons.

Doctors don't send alcoholics to AA and NA. Judges do, with the choice being that or more time in prison.

And here we are, in this forum, some of us anyway, finding out that no doctor wants to treat our ADD with the meds that would work best, because we had this "history" with alcoholism or took a lot of acid in the 70s.

We can't seem to see the whole thing as symptoms, mere symptoms, of a diagnostic whole. Instead, we say, oh yes, couldn't pay attention in school, very disruptive, no coherence of thought, yes yes, sounds like ADD. But if this distractability and poor judgment leads to drinking and getting high, that is suddenly BAD BEHAVIOR. Suddenly medicine veers from clinical impartiality, straight into the worst kind of stereotyping and prejudice.

I happen to believe a person who had a bad run with crystal meth and did other reckless behavior but had stablized would be a perfect candidate for adderall or ritalin, but I seem to be alone in this thinking.

I have an alcoolic friend who is amazed how little he struggles with the desire to drink, now that he is on a low dose of Dexedrine and a little xanax.

But see how fast you are given the bum's rush from an AA meeting if you stand up and share something like that, instead of usual "Let go and let God..."

Whatever that means...

I'm done.

I'm also atheist and though I have something that might resemble believing in a higher force (nature) I'm skeptical that would be adequate to qualify me for the AA scheme. I still drink way too much in the evenings but this latest combo of psych meds (an SSRI, a small dose of a benzo & ritalin) seems to keep the cravings for pot at bay just fine. I can quit drinking without any withdrawal fortunately but I have an awful time convincing myself to stop at just a couple drinks, though that's really where I'd like to be at. Time will tell.

Ever try antabuse as a deterrent? It works for me because psychologically it places an immediate negative consequence to even having one drink. You become violently ill, throw up, face turns beat red, and you fee horrible for a day or two.

The knowledge that this will happen is enough. I "believe" it will happen like that, therefore I never think about having a drink. And I go to bars and clubs ten times more often than I ever did before.

If I didn't take it, I would feel I had the option. There would be no immediate negative. I would start drinking, figure this time I would really try harder to moderate, and two or three weeks later, would be isolating and sipping my way through about a fifth of vodka a day and eating 7-Eleven burritos.

But that scenario is always three or four weeks out.

I never recommend this because it's rare that it works. Yet it does for me. Meaning it could work for others.

The real answer is understanding what the actual chemical mechanism of obsession or the tendency to "overdo" certain things is in the brain, and its locus, and attempt to alter it.

Antabuse is my version of AA, both of which are self-delusional end-arounds without really touching the root cause.

Bandaids, really.

You continue to take the antabuse ofter years? I have not tried it. Maybe a good suggestion if I choose to completely dry out for a period. It seems I would just stop taking the antabuse if I got the urge to drink again but yeah sometimes the mind requires funny tricks to get the job done. I'm considering getting this 3 thousand dollar brain scan done from Dr. Amen and it seems it would be a waste if I did not have myself completely drug free, probably for three months I'd think to allow my brain to recover fully. I'm afraid it might just show that my brain is perfectly normal and I simply have lots of bad habits and poor self control < grin >. I think it would be a waste to go for the scan and all they can tell is I'm drinking too much & the cigarettes are causing inadequate blood flow to the brain too. I already know that, I want to know if there is some real genetic physiological issue with my brain. I know the drinking isn't the healthiest thing but other than being stoned in the evenings (and pleasantly relaxed I might add) the hangovers aren't usually that bad and I know I'm perfectly capable of very clear thinking and performing very well when I'm in a hyperfocus mode. Because this medication seems to have eliminated my pot cravings, maybe I'd be OK without drinking now also. It is just such a regular habit and it still feels good.

I should have clarified that. Actually at this point the bottle of antabuse just sits there on my dresser. Having it is enough. Occasionally I feel a little twinge of desire to drink, and that's when I take it, perhaps three days in a row. Then the urge and the taking of the pill itself both fade into the background again.

I'm sure this is very likely part of my denial but I don't think the drinking interferes terribly with my life. Something is interfering though and I'm not able to do what I want to move forward with my goals. So I will just have to keep working on it to narrow down what exactly is going on. I need to be convinced of the real reasons for things, I'm very stubborn. Part of my new med cocktail is supposed to ease that stubbornness. Anyways I'm rambling now... Thanks for clarifying, I may chose to try that antabuse stuff 'cause I just don't have much discipline.

The comments about AA ring true for me. I'm just now after 14 years of buying into the whole thing finding that a bit of speed goes a long way.

Granted I had a mess of growing up to do too but I think the root of the problem has been found and is being addressed. I'm stunned at this revelation. I'm not writing off the many universal points of good conduct that I've learnt attending meetings but all the meetings never got to the core of the matter and it all fell horribly apart last fall.

A year later and things look very much different. I think sadly that the only thing I might have to offer my old group is catastrophic failure and death. This would be the only acceptable conclusion for my rejection of the "way".

Thanks for taking the time to put some of this down Douglas. Paul as always.. gracias.
ian

Some of us are accustomed to thinking of drugs as intended for getting high so it's hard not to think about getting high when taking them.GOOD POINT!

I can't get "high" off of my stimulant medications. I don't find them pleasurable at all actually. But to "abuse" something is to take it in a way it was not intended.

I don't abuse my medication. I don't ever take more than I should. The only other drugs I've done to get me "high" are pot ocassionally, and becoming more frequently and I've ate shrooms once but felt like a 'tard and nothing else happened except the lights from the tv were messing me up big time. And chewing gum was like otherworldly. Feeling my teeth bounce up and down off of the rubbery substance and such was really quite strange. The only real hallucination I had was the wood grain on my bathroom door started swirling while I was trying to take a **** and I fell off the toilet. I think any more hallucinogenics would just destroy my creativity even further therfore I decide not to do them. I always hear about the crazy stories my pals have from tripping and I decide to stick with softcore stuff like pot twice a week.

I think my boy toy of two years has really shaped the way I feel on this subject. I would rather take drugs to alter my normal state temporarily but nothing too extrodinary. And I don't like taking drugs that make me a better human being or more able to function because it makes me as a human feel like less of a person or disabled. I don't like to medicate myself. Although unfortunately I have been for almost 5 years with Adderall.

I realize that I say I alot. SORRY. Maybe I should read instead of write sometime.

by the way paulbf cute kitty in your pic. ive got a gray one with a stripy tail.

No No.......It's fine We are all free to speak our minds..:)

Isn't there a passage in the big book that says, "we seemed hyperactives" or something along that line? I talked to an old sponsor, hard core A,A,er, and told him I'm hyperactive, he said "we all are" referring to alcoholics?! I've grown up too and have my own opinions now that I"m more aware. He and I don't really agree on what determines alcoholism. He see's almost everyone as alcoholic, I've never heard him acknowledge any other illness and he's totally against drugs. I just spent my life without medication and think it's crazy to let someone run around with adhd who has now treatment or knowledge. Kind of made my heart sink.
His wife is a psychiatrist. lol. which is why I called in the first place. Needless to say, he wouldn't let me talk to her.

Heh You're not alone...I think if he see's everyone as a boozer the MUST be drinking \sumfin..Does he mean all Hyperactive or Manic People are all Boozehounds and Drug Users? Some of us may have adictive natures but.....argh My stereotype radar going off unless as usual i am misreading which has been VERY common lately :eek:

You don't have to be hyper or manic. There could be a couple argueing in the grocery store - alcoholic. It's the universal answer. I suspect there are some very hurtful things in his life that he has not addressed and never will. So, I don't think he's sterotyping, it's just his way. And I'll be damned if he doesn't make it all sound logical and right. Kind of like being a christian and blaming everything on the devil.
To his credit, i have to say he was right about my roommate. He sponsored my room mate and on several occasions he said that he felt my roommate was still drinking. Before I moved in, I worked with him a lot and know him very well and had no idea he was drinking. Now that I live here, I found that he never did stop drinking, won't go to work and is losing the house. So the sponsor is tuned in to that, or maybe the lack of progress on the room mates part. Wish I would have known before I moved in

I must admit i admire peoples honesty when it comes to addiction. I remember my first "forced" rehab" i was actually scared, facing jail time, and worrying about withdrawls and addiction. At the time, yr 2000, i was abusing GHB. Unknown to even the doctors, a overbearring person online used to tell me, when you stop ghb, you basically can die, and withdrawls last for months, you hallucinate, bla bla bla. Well after 1 day, after medication, i felt ok. So never listen to anyone, wheather they say withdrawls are nothing or withdawls are horrible.
Everyone is different. Until i abused Oxycontin, I seen how bad withdrawls were but again, i did not have any meds. I d much rather be detoxed than be a tough guy and be sick and possibly mess up more brain wiring. SOrta like if you just stopped adderall at a dose of 90mg a day. You dont just stop. If you cant taper down, just stay on it. Even when i was using GHB and Oxycontin I never stopped, unless i had medication. But i did detox in a jail cell from both GHB and Oxycontin, and in this jail, they lock you down 72 hrs quarantien and give you nothing.
That alone scared me strainght. BUt months later, did i still use? Hell ya.
Your disease says go ahead you wont get caught. NOw im not talking about adderall but any MIND OR MOOD ALTERING SUBSTANCE, Even Caffiene, to an extent. People also under estimate alcohol because its legal. I dont know how many know it all people told me, cant you just drink! Stop that stuf and just drink. I must say thats the most obsured statement. Not that I hate alcoholics, because i am one, but not to a severe extent, I was more like drink 6 beers, take 4 vicodin, amd some ghb. Poly use. I was never into taking alot of one thing at once. But different people have different addictions .

I spend about 1 yr total in rehabs, and my last was 6 months which helped me the most kick ghb. Now, out of 10000 peoplle maybe 20 people would abuse this drug. i was one of them. Well, i must say a drug is a drug. BUT i do believe addiction varies. One person may eat 10 adderall at once, I dont take more than 1. But the same person would probably never even take a wiff of GHB, or a sip, i would end p drinking a good 1/2 pint total a day.

ALcohol , I would shoot for that buzz. But more people who drink, even if its 3 or 4 nights a weeek, but aim for a buzz, have an issue with alcohol. Doesnt mean they should run off to rehbab . But I was in rehab with all different addicts, although Heroin was the killer. Next I would say alcohol. Alcohol just takes alot longer. Unless you kill yourslef in a dui crash.

NOw onther other hand, i know a few people with degenerated disks and have to take 3 oxycontin a day. They take them as perscribed and orally . They dont have no problem and there pain free except they coulld not just stop the drug. JUst like adderall, or even benzos. Benzos, even though i take 1mg a day, which is not much, Stopping even that amount you would feel very unconfortable for a good week or so. WIthout medication.

Lately , Im convinced addiction is at least 80 percent related to brain chemistry. Meaning there neurotransmitter system is malfunctioning from drug abuse, alcohol, even mental health issues. With the propermedication, you wont feel the need to drink 6 beers or pop 5 oxys. to feel right. But you have some people who believe 100 percent in AA NA, which i dont say one bad word and does help, but is not the cure like some think, fo rmost. WHY? I spend 1 yr in NA AA everyday, in about 4 days after a meeting I used. But it wansnt my choice drug, but opiates became my choice drug. THere is no majic pill. But more like proper medication combonations, even if a doctor has to give you another less potent drug, for a while, then slowely taper you off. This is where supplements and herbs would come in .

But I take exactly : 90 mg of adderall a day, 1mg of klonopin give or take a day and 1 8mg of suboxone, a partial opiate without the high , but helps with cravings withdrawls and replaces opiates from months of abuse from very strong full agonist opiates.

If anyone who is an addict, search on line about the Brain and addiction. I have a slew of research. What iv been researching iis scientist are finding out more an dmore about the disease and its brain chemisry most often related. Especially the MU opiate system and Dopaine system, Limbic area deepin the brain where lies the Nucleus accumbens. When i hear that word, i think of plesure center. Now months and months of daily or even years of constanly activating this center or th e opiatte centers, well i would suspect your chemistry in those areas when you stop would be like a dripping faucet. Instead of a steady flow, your brain was used to a fire hose type relese of these chemicals. Now you have a drip drop type release. Well, i dont think your going to feel better in 2 days, or who knows how long it woiuld take.
Another problem is called Reward Defeicentcy syndrome. THis is where the Reward center is not working properly. It could be your brain s natural opiates are not fully working or maiinly the Nucleaus dopamine or mesodopaminergic system is malfunctioning. THen you have d1 d2 d3 d4 receptors. So only a neurodoctor could tell you what is actually going on, through pet scans or if any new type of brain scanning is available. Ya it could get into depth, but ADD is not just a young kid who is hyper and cant sit still which i thought iit was. Up untill recently, there are 6 types, and all my symptoms mached 2 of the types, except hyperactivity. But then when the adderall took effect, and everyone probably knows amphetamines release or activate the reward system, My drug thoughts, motivation, zest for life and doing things i enjoy came back, i know this drug was it. Now would i worry about some side effects which do not bother me. THe worst effects I had, and i beleive i posted this before, was from EFFEXOR an antidepresant. I thought i was gonna die or i was going to be in some acid type trip for ever. WOW. That med should be controlled but because it doesnt cause a " GOOD FEELING"" well, no. its wont be. Its seems society doesnt like when people feel good. If you injest a pill an dyou feel better , thats on you, but there is a fine line of overdoing it.

To wrap it up, I actually abused ritalin for 2 weeks. I ended up snorting it. I guess i took it orallly and didnt feel right and a drug old friend said snort it youll feel good, well i felt good maybe 10 minutes, then my chest felt like i was gonna have a heart attack. Plus the act of snorting something, which I did with oxys, fueled the problem. WIth adderlal, I never attempted such feat and never will. I take my dose, and when it ears off in 6 hrs, i take another so i dont se any problem , even if i took 4 a day as long as i spaced them out, but then you run into sleep problems. Id say for me, that would be the only setback is sleep. Nothing that 1-2 mg of klonpin or especially remeron , if it didnt cause me to eat all day, would nock me out and sleep 12 hrs.

nm

I am new and haven't even got to introduce myself but have to respond. I am an addict through and through! My fav was always opiates of any kind, but I would do anything I could get my hands on. I got excited when prescribed 30 mgs of adderall. Of couurse, I had to abuse the first few months too see what all the rave was about. I have taken 200mgs in a day, some orally and some crushed and snorted since they are the time released ones. I figured I'll have some that keep going at a steady pace and some to give the intense rush. I have anxiety and found it not to be very fun. I was sitting at the computer paralized with fear. couldn't seem to move and didn't enjoy it. Did i try it again?? Hell yeah! doing the same thing expecting different results (sound familiar?) I ran out in less than a week. How pathetic is that?? I am just realizing that it feels much better taking it as prescribed since I don't like the massive panic attack and paralizing fear it gives me. Can't say I won't be crazy enough to do it again until I learn my lesson. But it's nice to see that others experiences that first time excitement of getting a "drug" that is abusable. It seems to even out after that excitement is gone and finding out it's not much fun. Not like opiates! for me anyway. thanks, kim

yeah I been there many times m'self too

Welcome to the forums Kim.


Did i try it again?? Hell yeah! doing the same thing expecting different results (sound familiar?)


You've obviously been to a meeting or two..heheh Me too. It's a remarkable bit of learning that! Doing the same thing over and over expecting the results to be different is my definition of insanity for sure! I know how to do it so well though! groan..

Self esteem and self image play such a big role for me in how well I can care for myself. As I get stronger it gets easier to be good to myself but man.. I'm getting old and at 45 I feel my body is not as resiliant as it once was. I'm having to speed up the self care some what just to stay ahead of the reaper.. :P
Ian.

I have huge self esteem issues and it all fits into my drug use. I like to be numb and not have to feel like such a looser. I have a sponcer, It has been hard to go to meetings because I am going through withdrawel with other pain pills. The good thing about loosing my job is now I have the time and am able to get off of these suckers! My excuse was always "well i have to work and can't go through wd's and try to do my job." I would be way too sick. Now I have an oppertunity to lay in bed and "die" for a while. Once I get through the WD's and can function and sit still for an hour (actually get out of my pj's) I plan on going to meetings again. I haven't had an oppertunity to talk to my sponcer about my relapse. I know i need too, but with the self esteem issues, even though that's why she's there, I'm afraid she wont accept me if she knows I messed up again! I have issues with people not accepting me and feeling worthless. It is all surfacing again now that I'm getting sober. I think I need to lay down the adderall for a while, I have nothing I need to take it for (school, work) and nothing I need to focus on accept getting off these pills and the adderall is just adding a whole lot of anxiety into the mix. I want to get better not trade one addiction for another and the adderall doesn't feel good. I dont get the euphoric feeling at all. tried many times----insanity! thanks for the welcome and it feels good to talk to someone! I just want to get better!! thanks, kim

i still get cravings somtimes when i take my meds. Not as bad as when i first started on dex, or as frequent, specialy now my dose is stupid too low. I just sit quietly in my bedroom away from the family and bear it out. I used to get very violent, aggressive, angry, restless and all sorts, but now i tend to find i get stressed, depressed and confused mostly. I can controll it, of a sort anyway, and its my own fault. I oftern think "meh, what do i have to loose why not take the whole bottle in one go". Not so much a craving, just a, im not sure how to explain it, ill get as close as i can, i dont know, like a personality thing i guess, i think if im honest i realy dont know. again though i have the self disciplin to control it, to a fasion anyway. I guess i dont realy controll it, i just dont give in to it. Its week, and in some ways so am i, but if im strong anough to keep waking up in the morning and go to bed at night in this ses-pool planet then im strong anough not to let the monster that i am surface and destroy all the efforts ive made to be me. I just wish i could know who "me" is. Ive become totaly disjoined, ive learned so much about myself, so fast, and all its done is left me with more questions than answers, questions that im not sure have answers. Anyway, suffice to say, yeah, i crave my meds and it would be very easy for me to abbuse them, it wouldent take much at all actualy.

Shin, reminds me of the good ole days when I got withdrawl from Ritalin....Fits about my fits :o

im not even gona get into withdrawrl today. one thing i will say though,weather its relevant im not sure, is there are two levels of addiction.

1. addict, both physical and / or mental, one feals they need substance x_x to "get by"
2. dependence, again both physical and mental, however this time, a person will suffer far more from coming off them med. Its somtihng my doc gave me an "in a nutshell" lecture on a while ago. An example would be benzo-diazapem (sp?) bassed drugs (like zanax, tomazopam, valium, etc). H e said he oftern sees people who are addicted to it, but raerly sees people who have become depended on it for survival.

Am i making sense, i duno. I need to go home, i should have left 15 mins ago and i got loads of boaring stuff to do tonight and i want to get it finished sometime before 7 tomorow morning. Take care always people.

Hehe Yes U making since ;)

I have found over time that while I used to have a bad problem with vodka, with forays into stimulants when I had the money, age has dampened the addictive drive in general. Now that I have amphetamine legally (Dexedrine), the thrill is gone! I used to lust after the pharmaceuticals in the 70s and 80s. I remember I bought a whole bottle of 20mg Biphetamines in the late 70s, 400 caps, the legendary Black Beauties. I thought I died and went to heaven. Toward the end, what a drag they became.

I think for me the important thing has been now having permission to revisit this demon, to get that Overdoing It Phase out of my system, and settle down into making it useful in my life or forgetting it.

So far it’s been a good thing. It’s nice to have the world, in this one area, not treating this 53 year-old guy like a child any more. That alone stokes the fires of addiction. Nothing like resentment-based cravings to drive a “run.”

The issue of potential dependency on stimulants (amphetamines, specifically, Dex) is how I wound up here in the first place. I was pretty scared there @ the start, and got some help and advice from people who had been on it for a while--not just a guy I pay $200/hr and writes up Schedule IIs (well, this particular one) with nary a worry, it seems.

I guess I have an addictive personality...drank a lot for around 7 years, from 12 (guy who abused me gave me vodka or whatever other alcohol I wanted as a bribe for silence--basically, though, it was to kill the pain) until...what was it? Oh, yeah--I got knocked up, that was it!

I know, serious subject, I shouldn't joke about it. Coping mechanism. Sorry.

Trying to be careful about stuff since...esp. since I smoke (not around the kiddo--always outside, mind you, don't go judgin' me)...kinda po's my doc, 'cause he thinks I need to chill and quit worrying about taking my anxiety/insomnia pills (Xanax) when I really need to take them...they're not really just for insomnia, even though I tell most people they are.

Don't know. Like I said, I first got here because I was all freaked about getting hooked on Dex...but I'm keeping a close eye on that, and ignoring my doc's insistence that with my situation and my "Mickey Mouse Dose" (as he calls it) it's just not something to be overly concerned about. (Partially, I think, 'cause he says he's been on it for something like a decade and a half.) I'm either neurotic & paranoid or wise...don't care which.

Chrys

When you say you're worried about addiction to Dex, what have you been doing or thinking about doing that worries you? When I first started getting the scripts I was taking twice the prescribed dose and running out mid-month. It was always two weeks of Medicated Doug (staying awake two days at a time, quieter, but lost in the kind of thoughts I'd been wishing I had for years but there were coming at me so sideways it was more interesting than an improvement) and two weeks of Unmedicated Doug (three days yawning a lot and eating trashy food, then back to my lifelong facial expression of Wish I Could Take A Nap, finding comfort in activities that are meaningless but soothing, and procrastinating on the long list of things I would rather be doing but fear doing for fear of failure, mainly creative urges in writing and photography).

With me it's a problem but I can get others to help me. Basically at lower doses on a daily or as needed basis it truly makes a difference, I mean I am profoundly happier with how I create each day. Unfortunately my memories of taking three and four times the right amount and feeling that controlled euphoria and breathtaking clarity without even getting up out your chair have burned an indelible pleasure path in my brain. My urge to create and be more creative is tied to taking this stuff in a way that I want to try and change.

I take antabuse as a deterrent to drinking and it works 100% of the time, without effort or cravings. With ADD drugs, I live with a guy who keeps the medication away from me, and doles out how many to take on a daily basis. The main thing is, I like it better when I don't know where the whole bottle is. I stop thinking about it.

Whatever works. I don't want to like the English poet who wrote the first pages of "Kubla Kan" while under the influence of opium, then the drug let him down and he never finished.

My approach is, if I see a weakness and can't seem to control it but want to, put a barrier or speed bump in that puts an end to struggles with will power. I have antabuse and this guy who hides my dex from me.

Life is good.

Does anyone else find it hard not to abbuse meds when their working hard. I mean my meds are still hidden from me and even if they were not i would not abbuse my meds for fear of running out early and being unmedicated me in from of other people. Sometimes though, when im doing somthing physicaly draining for long periods i get the thaught "if i had a couple dex now just to take the edge off idd finish this in half the time" going round and round in my head.

that's the reason i dont even really wnat medication right now. it scares me that i'd abuse it - i know i would forget to take it some days, and that other days i would take way too much.
i would need a monitor, someone who "kept" it.

I have been taking Ritalin, daily, for nine years at a prescribed dose. I have never felt the desire to take more, but sometimes forget and / or miss a dose. My only addiction demon is nicotine.
L.

Well I should say this. I'm 53 years old. When I was in school in the 60s my withdrawn, non-hyper ADD behavior didn't have a name, other than low achiever in spite of obvious intelligence, and a disappointment to my parents. In the 70s things were pretty loose concerning drugs and, in my opinion, more sane. You could do your rite of passage from youth to adulthood and didn't get 10 years in prison for a conspiracy case cooked up by crooked narcs or DEA agents. The rate of addiction carries the same rate of incidence as any other disease. In my opinion it has no correlation to legal status or availability. The fact remains that the only drug that I became seriously addicted to--and I've done them all--is vodka.

My closet drug of choice was always amphetamine. When I found it in those days it was taking a vacation to the real me. We didn't have terms like self-medication. But it was getting clamped down on big time and years would go by before I would run into Biphetamine or Dexedrine or that little treasure, Desoxyn. And how could I regard them as a "med"? I tended to take a dose that was higher than the dose prescribed as a <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=diet%20pill" onmouseover="window.status='diet pill'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">diet pill</a>, but not so different from the "ADD" dose.

It depends on how these meds have come to you, and your own sense of self and where you're vulnerable and where you're safe.

I get 150 5mg Dex tabs a month. I'm just now getting used to the fact that it's up to me how I regard this, and of course it's one of those be careful what you wish for you might get it scenarios, but on balance, how can any of us not be happy about this one sliver of enlightenment where the medical community, despite the pros and cons of therapy with stimulants?

I think a lot of people who express anxiety about "abusing" these meds in this forum and perhaps even deliberately trying non-medication treatments are sort of whining in the wind. That kind of thinking is the mark of a non-addict. The first two or three months into treatment I was eating my 30 days scripts in 8 or 9 days. Does that make me an addict? I don't know. I don't even go there. I look at it this way. I just spent over 50 years living a mostly unhappy life due to this mood disorder we currently call ADD. Before that it was MBD, Minimal Brain Dysfunction, but that sounded too grim, like you needed to be institutionalized. Diseases that produce aberrant social behavior are never popular and judged heavily and understood not at all. This is one pocket of diagnosis and treatment approach that somehow slipped past the majority opinion that purely physiological ailments like cancer and heart failure are tragic and the patient is a "victim," but ADD and Bipolar and Alcoholic/Addict people "choose" their behavior and are lazy and immoral and "victimize" their families. I am so weary of Recovery Program frauds who want you to work 12 Steps for everything from hangnails to tumors, of anti-medication parents who stand up and yell the loudest that their children need to be protected from Ritalin. My parents would have reacted that way. The way they made me feel about myself, worthless, irresponsible, unreliable, always judging, always rejecting, always saying I could do anything wanted but I just "didn't want to," had a much more profoundly negative and lasting impact on my life than the drugs I experimented with. The "addict" is nothing but a person trapped in a moderate to major OC relationship with a substance that restores that person's sense of "lost self," but because of social stigma, sees the use as abuse, beats him or herself up over it, and never sees beyond the polarities of total sobriety or going on runs and benders.

My life is really interesting now, as much in spite of as because of a bit of loopy mildly addict type reckless behavior that will always be me, because the sober "norm" for me was something like having a perpetual flulike brain disease, Old or Ugly Guy social status regardless of age or looks, and a Life Sentence of Sexlessness. I didn't initiate conversations, didn't look at anybody, didn't have friends, lovers, nothing. But I looked just like everybody else.

Don't be afraid of meds. Be afraid of not having choices. Be afraid of the mindless judgment of others who think you "chose" your personality.

Hello all, I'm a newbie here but felt I had to jump in here with a comment and a question.

Comment:

I'm taking 300mg Wellbutrin XL and 2x30mg Adderall XR (was taking 2x36 mg concerta but it gave me stomach cramps from hell). I use my Adderall "as needed" even though it says 2 per day on the bottle. I tend to take none on the weekend. During the work week I normally chew one up with my poptart (crushes enough of the little balls to provide a higher initial dose...can't stand not having my head on right as I get to work in the am) and take the other whole. for whatever reason some days it's like I didn't take them. Disorganized, scattered thoughts, only able to do the things that I REALLY like (and with my job those tasks are rare). So I'll chew another, swallow another. For those following along thats 120MG of Adderall. On rare days I'll take another after lunch if I'm drifting away. For a total of 150MG. The next day I'll take the two 30mgs only. If the following day is a Sat and I don't have bills to pay etc. I'll take none. I've NEVER felt euphoria on Adderall or Concerta even when doubling/nearly tripling my already high dose. What I do get on some of these "can't get it together, gonna take another" ocassions is a killer headache and shaking hands (with the concerta I also got bad burrito strength stomach cramps). I've left my script at the pharmacy for 5 days before because I kept forgetting to get to the store and other than being worthless at work I wasn't craving the amphetamines (up'ed my coffee consumption to "can I get a urinal in my cube" levels though). I can't see why the hell anyone would try to score speed for recreational use, there isn't much "fun" in it. Which leads to my question.

HAS THIS HAPPENED TO ANYONE ELSE HERE:

2 years or so ago I was clubbing with some friends and decided to try extacy to see what all the hype was about. While everyone I was with was rolling their asses off and mesmerized by the light show I got NOTHING, I mean absolutely nothing. A Tic Tac would have been more psycho-active. I tried it again about 2 months later, took twice what everyone else took and again got the same nothing reaction while everyone else seemed to enjoy it greatly. WTF? I'm willing to accept that I'm wired differently, but "fun drug" resistant is downright screwy.

Adderall and Concerta, in my experience, are a little flatfooted. You might find what I take more effective, Dexedrine, since you sound like you're very resistent to the effects of most stimulant drugs. Also, I have generally heard bad things about combining Wellbutrin with amphetamine. I took Wellbutrin for over a year by itself and felt nothing, something like your response to Adderall.

I've got nothing against Wellbutrin. It's been good so far, the money it's saved me on cigarettes alone makes it a keeper. I think I'll ask my neurologist about Dex when I see him again in April. I could pretty much pop these 30 mg Adderalls like Pez and still be riding the line between getting my head buttoned down enough to get my to do list done and being miserable with side effects. High doesn't enter the picture at all.

Oh, after I wrote this I remembered that 18 years ago when I was in high school I tried LSD on two different nights with results similar to my attempts with X. While all the other kids who took it were "seeing" things and colors, all I got was an inability to sleep those nights. Everyone else was looking at the pizza and laughing their asses off and I was sitting there thinking "Damn, it's 4:30 am and I'm going to be tired as hell tomorrow".

So whetever reuptake is hammered by X and Acid doesn't tweak my synapses like everyone elses. I'm color blind too, wonder if there is a link?

You're definitely an interesting aberration, as all of us more or less are. The possible link to color blindness is an intriguing thought. I took a lot of acid in the 70s, in a "controlled" way. My addictive tendencies have always had an anal retentive quality about them. I definitely got somewhere with it, though I always took twice as much as the norm, whatever that was. For me Dexedrine works even though I have to be a little careful because there is a high there if I want to go there. I don't drink any more. If I did, I would be taking handfuls of pills. The thing about Dex that I like is that I just feel unexplainably happier. Ritalin makes me moody and pointlessly task-oriented. Adderall is better, but the "amphetamine salt" mix is lower octane and like you, I would be needing 60 mg or more a day. Dex snaps me awake and I feel good. I take about 20 to 30 mg a day. The 5 mg tabs, not the spansules. I occasionally take trazodone, the "drowsy" anti-depressant, to get a deeper sleep, but otherwise, that's it.

I still feel like Wellbutrin is almost a placebo, a joke. Did it really help you quit smoking? I quit drinking first by taking antabuse, which makes you incredibly sick if you drink at all, but now just having the bottle in the medicine cabinet is an effective deterrent, without taking them at all. If something works and it's a placebo, well, it still works, right? What's the dif.

It definitely works for me and I know because I wanted to save myself $20 and had my doc give me a script for the generic LA version. About a week later I had the most intense desire to have a cigarette. In fact I HAD to have one and did. Found myself smoking more often on the generic, went back to the 300mg XL and once again don't have the undeniable urge to smoke any more. Weird stuff.

Oh, FWIW Pot "works" on me, but haven't used it in years (like 10 or 12) - too sloppy and not something I'd go out of my way to get (when I stopped hanging around people that used it, I stopped using it too).

Gin "works" too, although even there, I have like one or two a week. I'm not sensation seeking in a chemical way I guess. ~ there are other areas of life where I wish I had the same restraint.

It can depend on the medication-----Ritalin and concerta and those other methylphenidate drugs are severely addicting to me in the sense that the dose needs to be increased every 2 days on it and even at twice the prescribable dose it never holds up yet i don't seem to get addicted to the amphetamines for some reason so it depends on the person and the actual drug.

I don't find it hard at all. I've abused Adderall in the past. Now that I have a prescription for it and I'm taking it to manage my problems I have no desire to abuse it whatsoever.

Good for you :)

I must admit the since I posted this thread I have started to think of ways to distract myself when I do get tempted

Ive been taking 60mg of adderall xr prescribed by my doctor for around 5 years now, with amazing effects, my grades were phenominal and i was doing better in school than ever before. However, this last year i was forced to stop taking adderall because slowly a social paranoia side effect of the drug started getting worse and worse to the point were i couldnt even go outside my apartment when i was on it because i was so afraid of interacting with other people. The doctors arnt sure why it suddenly started happening, but they do know i have to stop adderall,
Anyways now that ive stopped adderall for about a month and a half, its been hell!! I havnt stopped eating since the day i stopped taking it(before adderall used to stop my food cravings i guess), where before i was in great shape, ive gained 25lbs in 1.5 months!!!. And im too tired too do any sort of prolonged exercise! It feels like its going to continue to get worse and if i dont do something soon im going to be a 300lb college dropout who sleeps all day. Any suggestions? Adderall alternatives or other medical suggestions that wont have the social paranoia affect? Someone suggested a stimulant with a an anti-anxiety medicine, any thoughts?
Desperate!
thanks, abe

It is all very hard to deal with when emotions run so deeply along with our ADD, it all gets so confusing as to what is causing what. example; I have found that I have (learned response) thought patterns-that I have followed without even realising it reg; perscription addiction & needing more. Sometimes we follow a certain pattern of thinking (the self talk I used to justify a decision to my self}, followed by actions (just having that extra few tablets), and pretty soon before you know it your actions (med abuse) are automatic. It helps to write down how you feel when you have urges to take extra medication, and read at a later time/date.
Reflect on what you read. I started to see definite patterns to my self, which gave me a starting point when I asked (& recieved) help. Hope this helps.......

I think what you are mentioning (#post 114) is what some Recovery people called "Junkie Logic". (e.g. the cognitive distortions)

Four Groups -- namely Addicts, alcoholics, people with eating disorders and certain types of offenders (involving crimes where they blame their victims) are all very good at that sort of thinking warp.

All are variations on addiction, really: trying to re-set or re-regulate the stress regulation/hormone/chemical systems of the brain.

I know i used to do it (rationalize; minimize; bargain; undoing stuff) when i was a Smoker... it's a slippery slope...

Someone who is prone to Stimulant abuse should not be taking stimulants, though. (Or using tobacco; another Dopamine Stimulant.)

Neither should an Alcoholic be using sedatives or tranquilizers or sleeping pills or anti-anxiety drugs that mimic sedation or stimulate GABA.

It is stroking those addicted brain circuits. This sets us up for Relapse. And the Abstinence Violation Effect.

Best of luck...

Draga, I'm not a doctor or expert in pharmocology, but I was wondering how you would do if you took a long acting non stimulent like Strattera (or even Wellbutrin which is often helpful when addiction is a probelm) and stimulent medication for the times when you need more focus. My psychologist has recommended this several times because it combines the long acting benefit and stabilty of not having the ups and downs with the generally better improvement in focusing and attentional skills provided by stimulent medication. Anyway, maybe something to ask your doctor about if you think it has any merit.

Of course, if addiction is the problem, it might be valuable to get your diagnosis checked. Wender (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in Adults) said that it is always good to recheck the ADHD diagnosis when tolerance develops after having reached a good working dose, because in his research that didn't tend to happen with ADHD.
In my case, over time I actually ended up lowering my dose. I definately want to take my medication because I'm much calmer and better organized (internally and externally) on it, but I don't crave it in the way I do caffeine.

Take care,
Scattered

It is all very hard to deal with when emotions run so deeply along with our ADD, it all gets so confusing as to what is causing what. example; I have found that I have (learned response) thought patterns-that I have followed without even realising it reg; perscription addiction & needing more. Sometimes we follow a certain pattern of thinking (the self talk I used to justify a decision to my self}, followed by actions (just having that extra few tablets), and pretty soon before you know it your actions (med abuse) are automatic. It helps to write down how you feel when you have urges to take extra medication, and read at a later time/date.
Reflect on what you read. I started to see definite patterns to my self, which gave me a starting point when I asked (& recieved) help. Hope this helps.......Welcome to the forums, Arienne9!:) Thanks for your input!

QueensUgirl, what is the Abstinence Violation Effect?

Scattered

Yeah when ephedra was legal that was the ultimate stimulant that you could get over the counter. It would enable me to exercise longer and harder, so when it came down to study I had more energy and could focus.

But yeah 60 pills a day sounds excessive, I always worry what effect the pills are having on my system. Don't want to damage my heart or brain because they are being over stimulated, artificially.

Well I just follow my Dr. instructions so I should be ok. But there is so much science that is not known about the long term effect of these drugs (Adderall, Ritalin, Dex etc...) that it worries me.

Yeah when ephedra was legal that was the ultimate stimulant that you could get over the counter. It would enable me to exercise longer and harder, so when it came down to study I had more energy and could focus.

But yeah 60 pills a day sounds excessive, I always worry what effect the pills are having on my system. Don't want to damage my heart or brain because they are being over stimulated, artificially.

Well I just follow my Dr. instructions so I should be ok. But there is so much science that is not known about the long term effect of these drugs (Adderall, Ritalin, Dex etc...) that it worries me.

Synephrine is similar to Ephedra. I take similar stuff and agree with your first paragraph. Google ALRI Venom Hyperdrive 3.0, Jetfuel, or VPX Redline / Meltown and you will see what I mean. If you take these you don't even need the Adderall.

It can depend on the medication-----Ritalin and concerta and those other methylphenidate drugs are severely addicting to me in the sense that the dose needs to be increased every 2 days on it and even at twice the prescribable dose it never holds up yet i don't seem to get addicted to the amphetamines for some reason so it depends on the person and the actual drug.

Possibly the first time I have seen someone with 6,000+ posts, on any forum, banned.

The previous record was held by someone with 3,000 posts on another forum I frequent...

Wow.

I did the exact same thing when I was on ritalin. I took 30 pills in less than 2 weeks. I was hoping to get on something stronger such as adderall but thank god I was put on Strattera. Strattera works for me and I can't abuse it. I have an addictive personality so I know if i were to be put on a stimulant I wouldn't properly use it. I suggest maybe you try a non-stimulant if that is your personality type.

Take care.

I'm also atheist and though I have something that might resemble believing in a higher force (nature) I'm skeptical that would be adequate to qualify me for the AA scheme. I still drink way too much in the evenings but this latest combo of psych meds (an SSRI, a small dose of a benzo & ritalin) seems to keep the cravings for pot at bay just fine. I can quit drinking without any withdrawal fortunately but I have an awful time convincing myself to stop at just a couple drinks, though that's really where I'd like to be at. Time will tell.

I find that the SMART (smartrecovery.org) method works the best for me.

how can you take so many pills and get away with it? my son's dr prescribed X amount of pills for X amount of time (ie: 6 months worth). I take it to the pharmacy and they record it. If I show up at either my dr's or the pharmacy, aren't they going to wonder why we ran out of meds before X amount of time?

When I first started getting the scripts I was taking twice the prescribed dose and running out mid-month. It was always two weeks of Medicated Doug (staying awake two days at a time, quieter, but lost in the kind of thoughts I'd been wishing I had for years but there were coming at me so sideways it was more interesting than an improvement) and two weeks of Unmedicated Doug (three days yawning a lot and eating trashy food, then back to my lifelong facial expression of Wish I Could Take A Nap, finding comfort in activities that are meaningless but soothing, and procrastinating on the long list of things I would rather be doing but fear doing for fear of failure, mainly creative urges in writing and photography).

My urge to create and be more creative is tied to taking this stuff in a way that I want to try and change.

Life is good.
++++++

I know you posted this a few years ago... but the words really "spoke" to me today. I am in the same routine that you described here. In my case (at the age of 58), my Doc, has me up to 120 mg / day of Adderall IR. And it's still not enough to get me through the 30-day script. I am "creative, productive, happy, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed Bruce" for the first two weeks, and then, once I run out of the "little helpers" i become "sleepy, dopey can't remember how to lace my shoes Bruce".

I hate the cycle I'm living, mostly because of what it does to the people around me. My third wife is just about to leave me, and if all goes as is normal for me, I will be wrestling with another financial bankruptcy before long... yawn... My wife is convinced I am "addicted", and I guess it is how you define addiction. In my case, it is true I habitually repeat this cycle, but it seems more like just my life. I mean, I am rather convinced that I can not be creative without my "little helpers", and I AM a graphic designer, for heaven's sake. Everyone loves my work. In fact, I've become "the one" in my market. Of course, i end up taking longer than anyone else, because I have to squeeze in those two "off-weeks" as well. I guess they all think I am doing research, or maybe I'm in a zen state of mind. Actually, I am usually sleeping late, or watching Ellen on TV, and waiting for the days to pass, until I can get my next script... and then i start all over again... round and round I go....

A nice definition: an addict uses medication to escape reality.A patient uses it to get in touch with reality. If your medication honestly improves your functioning then your use of it is totally appropriate. Ask your boss or your nearest and dearest if you are on top of things. Your doctor should set the limits for your medication and you should stick to them and discuss the results with him- he should stay in the driving seat.
If you are not getting better then maybe there is a coexistant problem.

I was diagnosed recently and for the first week I was given 7 x 5 mg of Dexedrine. Of course I had to check it out for its potential and I crushed two to snort and ate one. I didn't get high at all I just felt more clear headed and my thoughts slowed down. When I did the rest of them as I was supposed to 1 5 mg pill in the morning after breakfast I felt the therapeutic benefits - even at that low dose.

My addiction history though is alcohol, cannabis, and gambling. I never abused stimulants although I recreationally used ecstasy, cocaine, and GHB without problems. However, I'm not sure if I'm going to get Dexedrine going forward - my shrink is doing her fellowship, and after her supervisor reviewed my case it was suggested that I go on Straterra. I've read up on it and I don't think I want to go that route because of the side effects and it's so bloody expensive.

My point though is I don't think everyone with addiction problems will necessarily abuse stimulants if prescribed. Personally, if I want to get high I'm not going to pop my Dexedrine pills (if I do end up getting a scrip for these ones). I do however wonder if I wouldn't abuse Ritalin. I've heard crushing and snorting these give you a mild coke like high - and that's one of the things I liked about coke. I never liked snorting so much that I was high as a kite - I just liked doing little bumps and getting that mild awake feeling. Anyway, I just want to say in my limited experience with stimulants I don't think abuse potential is there, but for others it may be different.

Hi All - this is my 1st posting, so i hope i'm doing it right...:)

Here's my issue: My son who is now 31 is ADHD [pretty severe] and was never on medication as a child... except for a short stint w/imipremine [sp?] which made him a zombie ... and was a hard-core meth addict for almost 10 years - i was always terrified that i would get "the call" [we lived in different states] or worse yet would not get "the call" and that he would be dead somewhere & that i would never find him... an unfortunately common fear of parents and loved ones of addicts...

He moved continents and cleaned up & has used [rarely] for 2 1/2 yrs ... he seems to be doing soooo much better - has a good job, is getting certified in his area, etc... is in a decent relationship, etc... however, he still struggles daily w/his ADHD - extreme hyperactivity, lack of focus, inappropriate behavior, etc... charming and extremely likeable, too, i might add ...

AND... He refuses to work a program or do therapy, insisting that he can "do it all on his own"... he is looking at taking Adderall to help him - which is a step he was unwilling to consider until now... AND... after doing much reading about the effects of the drug, i am very concerned that it will have serious adverse effects on him, i.e., his heart - esp since he is a recovering meth addict... and, he is even questioning whether he should tell the dr about his former meth use as he has "heard" that docs in Australia won't prescribe for ex-meth addicts!

All replies greatly appreciated!

thanks,

actorgenie

really hard for me. ill just want more

i was "addicted" to marijuana, in a sense that it calmed everything down for me so i can really see what was going on in my head... but then when i realized i had ADD, it was a great relief. I know it's wrong taking 60 pills a week, but I can definitely understand. I feel like, in order to solve this issue, you have to really separate your mind from your inner being. Your mind is telling you to take your pills, just like your mind was taking you places when you DIDN'T know you had ADD... so think of your mind, (not just you, EVERYBODY), as your greatest limiting factor... once you can conquer your mind, and realize whatever negative things it tells you is false, and that you, and everybody else with ADD, actually has unlimited potential, like the rest of the world, then you can do wonders in your life. You only need one pill to get you through 2-4 hours of studying, just like I do. You need breaks, you don't need another stimulant right afterwards... your just gonna age quicker from all the stress your putting your body through by using your mind constantly.

Wow can I relate to this mess. I'm 26 years old and I've been on stimulants 21 years. Oh, and I'm an addict too. While I was using copious amounts of opiates, cocaine, alcohol, pot, benzodiazapines, etc. I didn't seem to care about my meds. I would often give them away or trade them - or just forget about them all together.

Then, I got clean...or "clean". I've been off all of the above (sans add meds) for just over six months now. No drinks, nothing. I attend AA meetings 5 nights per week, have a sponsor, work the 12-steps, yada yada yada. I buy into it too. The problem is, lately I've been really depressed about my meds, becuase I know that I am addicted to them and that I am afraid of life without them. I want so badly to be off of them for good, but when I try to go one day without them, I fall asleep at my desk, in the car, at lunch, wherever I am. I cannot keep my eyes open. If it werent for that, I wouldn't need them. Coffee doesn't work, not when you're used to ritalin.

Currently I am only taking Concerta, 81mg per day. I take more than that though, I must admit. I was taking ritalin, but began snorting it like crazy, so I removed myself from it. Now I've managed to find a way to abuse my concerta.

I want off of this stuff - because the only way I know HOW to take narcotic medications is to ABUSE them. What can I say, I'm an addict!

Please, can anyone help me out? What can you do to get off of the stimulants? I don't notice any withdrawal symptoms other than a total lack of energy and motivation - and I need both of those to work my job. But I feel the meds are getting in the way of my recovery.:confused::confused::confused:

Thanks in advance.

:)welcome to forums and congratulations on your starting to get sober

Im still sober today, one day at a time has piled up to 15plus yrs

what does your sponsor say about your meds?

we learn in AA not to make changes during our first yr of sobriety, your brain is starting to dry out and wake up

just stay sober and WORK your program, go to meetings everyday if you need to...It does get better:)

use your DOCTOR prescribed meds as directed and stay in touch with doc fequently:)

you can do this :) l

keep posting we care:)

I have no problem at all with this .. if anything, I rather forget to take it.

Dex does make me very quiet inside, calm and clear. I like that it works that way, but there is no urge whatsoever to "score" that feeling again.

I was fearful of stimulant drugs due to coming out of a treatment center for Pot use and depression. When i was first prescribed Adderall after 9 months sobriety. I took them as prescribed for 2-3 weeks, missing the occasional day. Took me almost 2 months to finish the 30x Adderal Xr 30mg, my 30 presciption. The next prescription after telling this to my doctor about my fears of stimulant drugs. He asked that i continue to take them and get in the routine of taken in the same time daily.

I did that for couple months, then asked him if i can remove my medication from my treatment. Since the medication made me aware of some of the real issues i felt confident that i would be able to work on them without medications.

Im glad i have this fear of stimulant drugs because with my addictive personality, im sure i would begin to abuse them.