I know IV posted a lot about this before, but before my doc tries changing my medicine I thought id give it another try in here...

Eversince I started adderall XR30 mg a few months ago I can't wake up. I sometimes can literally sleep 10 to 15 hours a day. When I say sometimes I mean like a lot. I don't know what to do, adderall has done so much but I just can't wake up and its starting to effect school and work. IV tried other dosages same thing occurs..

Everynight I set 4 alarm clocks 2 across my room and 2 right next to my bed. I don't hear them when they ring, someone always has to come and pinch me or push me for me to wake....

Everyone jokes and say I hibernate haha lol

Does anyone have a solution? Can I eat something, drink something? Anything to help me wake up... Cause my doc says if its effecting me that much that he would change my medication.. Work wise my boss is cool and knows ill make up the time . I'm always 30 min to an hour late. But school wise its a killer.

IV never had this problem before adderall. It also seems when I have something important to do I wake up with just enough time to scurry around and be on time.. Which has happened a lot lately with work and school...

It just sucks cause days I have something imprtant due for school I won't sleep cause I'm afraid ill sleep through class.

A solution and explanation will be really helpful ! I really don't want to stop adderall its changed my life a lot!!

Thanks everyone for your help. Hopefully someone has a solution

Teh amphetamines are ruining your deep sleep causing you excessive tiredness. There is no solution, Well, Maybe Ambien CR, they claim to preserve deep sleep.

I don't have excessive tiredness though, I'm fine the whole day, I can sleep when I'm ready to, just waking up sucks.. I would understand it if I was tired all day long, but I'm not. And about sleeping meds... I don't really want meds, when I can fall asleep naturally , except for the whole dead sleep instead of deep sleep issue lol

Thx

So um few ideas:
1.Your circadian rhythm is messed up which would ruin waking up
2.You are sleep deprived and therefore don't want to wake up, and you only have energy during the day because you are on amphetamines
Pick one.

Ok, I kind of understand what your saying. But I don't understand how I'm sleep deprived when I sleep like every night

Like I said, amphetamines alter your sleep cycle. If you get a lot of Stage 3 and Stage 4 deep sleep, then you wake up feeling really refreshed and awesome. Amphetamines make Stage 3 and Stage 4 crappy, so you don't feel as refreshed and awesome, and you want to sleep more to feel refreshed and awesome.

Ok so since there is no solution.. I guess ill have to switch medicines... does anything work like adderall does?


... would maybe drinking alot of orange juice before i sleep help deter the sleep i get... multi vitamins maybe

Ok so since there is no solution.. I guess ill have to switch medicines... does anything work like adderall does?


... would maybe drinking alot of orange juice before i sleep help deter the sleep i get... multi vitamins maybeThe problem with AD/HD medications is that you can't specifically target a few sites of the brain so all AD/HD medications alter sleep cycles, EXCEPT for Provigil, which isn't technically an AD/HD med. The only solution "I think" is getting an alpha 2 agonist (Clonidine) to go along side any AD/HD medication. Furthermore, in time, say weeks, the receptors will downregulate and allow for better sleep.

The stuff about OJ and vitamins means nothing.

What does your doctor say about the sleep thing Em? I mean stims are stims are stims? You could try some natural alternatives, if opposed to pharmacutical?


If you are getting enough sleep? Not suffering rebound? You think maybe it's something else medical, that seemed to be timed with your meds?

I hear what you are saying, but (here goes the line) we can't tell you what to do, and can only offer experiences taht might help, as they might be similar in nature enough to help you ask the right questions, or offer some nudging to your doctor? At the end of the day, the doctors are the expert, and if you dont' like what he's saying? You can get a second opinion?

Have you tracked your sleep patterns?( I mean what is going on, in your life precedeing sleep) Stress can cause a lot of these, so can depression? That's why I asked if might consider it having nothing to do with medication, for ADD?

Links to read:
http://www.modafinil.com/modnormsl.html
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2003.01207.x?journalCode=pcn
http://www.cnrsw.navy.mil/hrocnrsw/amphetam.htm Says withdrawal gives excessive deep sleep
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109710494/ABSTRACT

The info I'm getting from studies is that amphetamines, ritalin, etc etd decrease stage 3, stage 4, and rem sleep. I think if you take a perfect amount of clonidine you can fix this problem though.

It def. does have to do with the adderall because thats when it all started. I do sleep, 8-10 hours a night, sometiems 5-7 if i have school. I have taken medication for derpession and anxiety and have been diagnosed with it, but i never had this problem with those medications by themselves..

My doctor told me it could be the adderall and to try and take it every other day, that didnt do much of a difference. He told me to try and take it when i wake up not as soon as my alarm rings ...that made a tiny difference

I have noticed though that the later i take it in the day the easier i can sometimes wake up...does that make sence? maybe i need adderall IRs for when i sleep, i havent mentioned that part to him yet.

thanks for the help

Interesting articles thanks optimum.

Links to read:
http://www.modafinil.com/modnormsl.html
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2003.01207.x?journalCode=pcn
http://www.cnrsw.navy.mil/hrocnrsw/amphetam.htm Says withdrawal gives excessive deep sleep
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109710494/ABSTRACT

The info I'm getting from studies is that amphetamines, ritalin, etc etd decrease stage 3, stage 4, and rem sleep. I think if you take a perfect amount of clonidine you can fix this problem though.
your last link seems to suggest that there is a decrease in total sleep time as well, and that the number of REM episodes was not affected by the drug:

"A significant difference in total sleep time was observed with the highest amphetamine group (20 mg) averaging 7·0 hours vs. 8·1 hours for the placebo group. The decrease in total sleep time was due largely to a significant decrease in REM time. The number of REM episodes was not affected by drug."

It def. does have to do with the adderall because thats when it all started. I do sleep, 8-10 hours a night, sometiems 5-7 if i have school. I have taken medication for derpession and anxiety and have been diagnosed with it, but i never had this problem with those medications by themselves..

My doctor told me it could be the adderall and to try and take it every other day, that didnt do much of a difference. He told me to try and take it when i wake up not as soon as my alarm rings ...that made a tiny difference

I have noticed though that the later i take it in the day the easier i can sometimes wake up...does that make sence? maybe i need adderall IRs for when i sleep, i havent mentioned that part to him yet.

thanks for the help

Well I guess if you are sure it's the Adderall, and he wants to maybe try something else...why not? I mean I know it sucks to switch things around, but you have to weigh the good effects and the bad, and decide which you want to give up or deal with? The good things about stimulants is that you don't have to wait 4-6 weeks for them to build a blood level and see if they are going to work? They just work or they don't? Well once you get to a good dosage for you? I have been on stimulants on and off for years..and never had that issue? Thanks for sharing though, something I haven't really seen or researched before myself. Hope is all works out for you. Please do let us know how it goes?

I don't know anything about Adderall other than what I read or hear from other people. I do know from Ritalin. When I was diagnosed, I was put on a Ritalin drug trial for one month and reported back to the psychiatrist. One of the questions he asked was if my sleep had improved. I thought it was an odd question as sleep wasn't something we had discussed before. I told him I wasn't sleeping longer, but I felt more rested in the morning and the doctor nodded in agreement. I should have asked him why.

Em, both my adult son and I have less difficulty falling asleep when on Ritalin, but my son is an extremely deep sleeper (making up for all those baby years when he didn't sleep unless exhausted) and would sleep through an alarm if he worked different shifts.

Well I know my son is and has always been that way, on or off medication.

I have never been a "wake up" person, meaning I need an hour to wakeup and have coffee and "seg-way into the land of the living. My stimulants don't make a difference either way, for me? So I guess whatever I am supposed to be, being robbed of, just doesn't apply to me. But then again, that seems to be the way it is for all ADD'ers alike. Meds, no meds, diagnoses, treatments etc. What works for one doesn't work for others.

I have 2 alarm clocks, on I have set one hour ahead, where I can start waking up,hit the snooze about 4 times...but I am "waking" and one for about 10 minutes so I know when it goes off..I have to get up NOW....and I have tried taking my stimulants then laying down so they "kick" in..but umm I can sleep through them... So oh well. I am just not a "wake up" person.

I just hope you find what works for you , Em.

An excellent point, Justhope. I am a morning person, but need longer than others I know to get going in the morning. I get up earlier than I should need to just so I can relax and have coffee before my meds kick in and I get ready for work. That's another reason why I like walking to work.

Yep, for me...who used to be chronically late...dragging...it was a matter of self-discipline, not necessarily related to my ADD (this is just my example, not implying anything anybody...))) but once I realized, like you said,..the transition was sooo much easier if I just got up earlier...and had time to breathe...it was okay. I am not saying I woke up easier....but the day was easier becasue I had more time to wake up....

I think there are some links , EM...about some other things that might help...I will have to go find...be back...soon.



Hope

Imnapl and justhope, for personal curiousity, and don't lie, how is your memory?

Why would I lie? How is my memory for what?

Why would I lie? How is my memory for what?Well, people lie and try to seem amazing on the internet and in person. Not saying you do :P

Your memory of... I don't know anything. Like, if I gave you a presentation today on turtle life, how much would you remember in a month? That kind of memory, learning facts type thing.

your last link seems to suggest that there is a decrease in total sleep time as well, and that the number of REM episodes was not affected by the drug:

"A significant difference in total sleep time was observed with the highest amphetamine group (20 mg) averaging 7·0 hours vs. 8·1 hours for the placebo group. The decrease in total sleep time was due largely to a significant decrease in REM time. The number of REM episodes was not affected by drug."
Is there a question here o_O Less REM time is not kosher o_O

Well, people lie and try to seem amazing on the internet and in person. Not saying you do :P

Your memory of... I don't know anything. Like, if I gave you a presentation today on turtle life, how much would you remember in a month? That kind of memory, learning facts type thing.My job in a high school requires it on a daily basis and is one of the reasons I love my job.

Well, people lie and try to seem amazing on the internet and in person. Not saying you do :PHope, I swear I took my 2:00p.m. dose and it should have kicked in by now, but I can't resist this one.

Optimum00, are you saying that Justhope and I are amazing or just short of amazing? :D :p

Hope, I swear I took my 2:00p.m. dose and it should have kicked in by now, but I can't resist this one.

Optimum00, are you saying that Justhope and I are amazing or just short of amazing? :D :p
I think you are trying to seem amazing mr. memory master :P

My hypothesis states that your memory shouldn't be great. Like any good scientist will do, I will find other people who wake up groggy and who have poor memories, and throw this data about you out :)

Just for the record, I struggle with remembering people's names.

Something tells me Optimum00 would enjoy the hairy bum thread . . .

I do not, never have, wake up groggy. I struggled for years about being Chatty Cathy at the breakfast table and I annoy the heck out of night owls. How I start my day determines the snowball effect my ADHD has on my day. Not allowing enough time to get organized physically and mentally for the day starts that snowball rolling. I get up early so I can take my meds and still have time to eat breakfast an hour later - as per instructions. I don't walk to work to wake up. I walk to work to loosen up this stiff old body and get the endorphins working before I walk into my place of employment.

I took "I am a morning person, but need longer than others I know to get going in the morning. I get up earlier than I should need to just so I can relax and have coffee before my meds kick in and I get ready for work. That's another reason why I like walking to work." to mean you are groggy and want to go back to bed until your meds kick in... but I guess you hop out of bed and just need stims until you can be fully functional o_O

In any event, viewers at home, if you wake up groggy, share with me if you have a bad memory :)<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Ah ha! Ritalin calms me down, not up. My meds help me slow down and think about what I need to do in the morning before work. No meds and it's much harder to do the routine, get out the door on time and not start the day frazzled.

oh Op you are a peach...and forever keep me on my toes...if you are trying to offend me it's not working....but I"ll bite..here you go ;)

I have normal memory capacity for my age? My long term is good. My short term is less than perfect, hmm ADD triat and old age kicking in perhaps. As far as learning, once I sit still long enough and pay attention, I ususally remember it for a long time, unless I don't use it again , then it get's shoved out of my head for all the new information. My job also requires not only decent short term memory but long term. So honestly I don't think I have a problem with either, not one that effects my life or my job? I don't lose things like many ADDer's complain about. I don't lose my keys, wallet, etc. I remember my appointments, and my kids most of the time without a reminder card? Once I write it down, I remember it? I remember phone numbers amazingly easy and for a long time? So I have no reason to lie. Do I not fit in a box somewhere Op? Why would you throw out anything based on a couple of people who are different?

And again, I have no reason to lie. If you asked anyone who knew me, they would say be careful what you ask, you might be more info than you wanted, no holds barred and about a blunt as it comes. I have no reason to lie here because frankly my dear I don't give a @#%# if someone thinks I'm great here or not. I am here to offer "support" and my expierences, in hopes it might offer some guideance to someone who needs it, or at least a sigh of relief knowing they are not alone. And of course I get help myself.
I don't pretend to be something I'm not on the computer or in the "real" world. Unless, my paycheck requires I do for a short period of time, if it caused horrible harm to another person, and I can skip it...
I simply am, who I am.

Let me let you in on a secret I am very comfortable in my older/wiser very ADD / Bipolar skin. I am not afraid of a good debate or to look at someone else's point of view, or see outside of what I think is the only way to do things.

So what is your point? I said I have always been the way I am in the morning, since I was a child, and I only started taking meds as an adult? So if you are looking for a sleep related coorelation to my grogginess because of the "stims" I don't fit in that box, sorry. :)

Well, today I spent most of the hours researching about sleep...
My hypothesis is if you wake up groggy and tired, then you got insuffient REM sleep, and scientists think REM=memory consolidation.

You know, narcoleptics are really, really lucky. They get all the REM sleep in the world. Not many drugs increase REM sleep, most decrease it :(

Oh, and no, I wasn't trying to offend you.

Sounds like me before my Sleep disorder was diagnosed in the sleep lab.

I am the same way. Serious Hypersomnia. If i am not on stimulants or stimulating meds of some kind, I cannot function.

NB One hour per day of Exercise helps improve sleep and lessen the need for it (makes it more Efficient), i found.

Queens, is Hypersomnia the sleep disorder you were diagnosed with? What are the symptoms?

Queens, is Hypersomnia the sleep disorder you were diagnosed with? What are the symptoms?Hyper=Above Normal, Somnia=Sleep ==== A lot of sleeping, symptoms are a lot of sleeping :D

I need to stop hitting refresh on this board waiting for new posts.

(Little Moderator Note here folks) myself included...


Group, I think it would be a good idea to start an individual thread about all this "research" related stuff because this is straying off topic of what EM wanted to know about 20 post's ago. We don't have a simple answer, it appears. So she will have to take what she wants and leave the rest. But let's not hijack her thread..happy to join you somewhere out of her thread...

Optimum...I think you have been over here?
http://addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=310?

Optimum...I think you have been over here?
http://addforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=310?The hairy bum thread is the third one down. ;)

Need I say more...:eyebrow:

Well, today I spent most of the hours researching about sleep...
My hypothesis is if you wake up groggy and tired, then you got insufficient REM sleep, and scientists think REM=memory consolidation

As justhopes older sister she has never been a morning person and it doesn't matter if she sleeps 15 hours or five minutes she is going to be groggy when she wakes up period. She has been this way all of her life even as a baby. . . .

Our family has an excellent long term memory however our short term is . . . okay what was the question?

The turtle thing if it was interesting I would be able to recall it five years from now but please do not ask me where the keys I had five minutes ago are .



Eversince I started adderall XR30 mg a few months ago I can't wake up. I sometimes can literally sleep 10 to 15 hours a day. When I say sometimes I mean like a lot. I don't know what to do, adderall has done so much but I just can't wake up and its starting to effect school and work. IV tried other dosages same thing occurs..


When I was on low doses of stimulents they made me sleepy, but the problem ended once I reached higher mgs per dose.

It sound like you have tried just about every thing and I am guessing you are sleeping well though the night. If the symptoms completely go away when you stop the medication I can see where your doctor may want to change it.

Now when you speak of your sleep are you awaking up during the night? Just because you are in bed 15 hours doesn't mean you are sleeping.Also consistency is a factor as well. yea you might sleep 15 hours tonight but is this happening every day, and are you going to bed the same time every night? Other consideration are things along the physical realm of stuff. When is the last time you had a good physical?

Just bouncing about some ideas and seeking more information. Now time to bouncy myself into a bed some where.

i use a zma supplement which helps me reach deep sleep

search it with google or something, really helps a lot

i do much of the same thing and i never thought nething of it now that i know ill keep an eye on it i recently switched from takeing three 10Mg pills in the morning to takeing one pill of 30Mg at same time cause of my insuance thanks!!

I suffer from the same problem. I've tried Provigil before which seemed to help the "hibernation" problem, but the doctor didn't want me on amphetamines plus the provigil. Have you tried waking up extra early to take the stims, then going back to bed to see if they wake you up?

Yea IV tried waking up an extra hour early, but like I said even if I set 2 of my alarms to an hour early I won't hear them lol. I think before I go to my doctors I'm gonna try taking omega 3 and B6 vitamins before I sleep since they help with ADD maybe they will keep me alert. I also bought a sleep tape yesterday that's supposed to send vibrations to your brain and make you sleep and wake up rejuvinated .. Its prob bull crap and I wasted my money but it won't hurt to try. So hopefully they will work.. I'm gonna look into the ZMA supplements never heard of them.. Thanks a lot everyone ill let you know how the sleep tape works when I wake up.... Lol I slept 14 hours today, just woke up school in 30 minutes gotta love it haha

EM keep us posted on how your doing in the sleep department.

I know I am going to be hard to get up in the morning I did a bunch of lifting today and I know I am going to be sore and stiff. Being sore and having muscle stiffness always makes it hard for me to get moving.

EM, has your doctor recommended a sleep study?

My oldest daughter was like that-but now that she has a baby and full-time job it changed. Which is strange-I could never get her to wake up when she was at home. I was like that too-until I had kids. Heck would have slept through a fire alarm in the dorm-siren by my door even-if not for my floormates!

I have fibromyalgia and that really disrupts the REM cycle-you don't get the deep restful, restorative sleep and waking up is very hard to do. I am finding I wake up better now that I am on Wellbutrin, but have no idea why, but don't care-it is nice to just wake up and be awake. I do have to get used to getting up-I keep expecting to need to stay in bed and sleep.

I am not recommending having kids-:D but I wonder if knowing someone depends on you for everything helps you wake up. I was so worried I wouldn't wake up for my babies.

You sound so frustrated. Hugs, wish I had something definitive-a sleep study would show your sleep patterns and what type of sleep you are really getting. Then you could get the right treatment. This is my best guess at a solution.

Take care,
ME=VI

Ill take a quick stab at this, its melatonin related. The pineal gland has dopamine receptors for some odd reason and an influx of dopamine say from a stimulant may cause strange effects on your melatonin levels. One of melatonins roles is to control the circadian clock, the thing that tells your body when its time to be awake and sleep. Usually melatonin levels are controlled by light/darkness but when you start exposing your brain to higher than normal levels of dopamine it might get confused and not make enough melatonin. This also means that your REM cycle will be off if you have to little melatonin.

Pineal gland dysfunction and melatonin levels are also implicated in panic disorder.

Cooper, you sure on it being dopamine and not norepinephrine? I could have sworn I read something on melatonin keeping NE from releasing at synapses, plus that article I posted on clonidine is purely on NE secretion.

BTW, Don't give up again and slam your head against the desk, I am really interested on this topic.

Well i woke up today, not on time but not having have had 12 hours of sleep lol the sleep tape worked, but it took forever to fall asleep, so i am guessing all it does is keep some brain waves awake so when i hear my alarm i actualyl hear it... lol,, I am going to try the ZMA supplement today, i was reading about it and it induces the sleep stages im missin out on.. or it can give me deeper sleep lol so ill find out,, sooner or later the problem will be solved haha i just hope i dont get the deep sleep side of the ZMA or i wont wake until friday

Cooper, you sure on it being dopamine and not norepinephrine? I could have sworn I read something on melatonin keeping NE from releasing at synapses, plus that article I posted on clonidine is purely on NE secretion.
.Yes, exposure to higher than normal levels of NE causes lower releases of melatonin. Its the obvious connection between stimulants and screwing up your circadian clock, but what isnt obvious is the weird relationship the pineal gland has with dopamine. NE just doesnt have the power to alter neuronal connections in the same way dopamine does.

Well i woke up today, not on time but not having have had 12 hours of sleep lol the sleep tape worked, but it took forever to fall asleep, so i am guessing all it does is keep some brain waves awake so when i hear my alarm i actualyl hear it... lol,, I am going to try the ZMA supplement today, i was reading about it and it induces the sleep stages im missin out on.. or it can give me deeper sleep lol so ill find out,, sooner or later the problem will be solved haha i just hope i dont get the deep sleep side of the ZMA or i wont wake until friday
AAAAH SUCCESS....so despite the controversy you started here...(just kidding, you didn't).....you have perhaps found a work around. So better to have a little problem falling asleep , but now you can wake up better....well almost perfection...I use a sleep machine too, love it....:D

Also, doing some thinking, acetylcholine is higher in REM, and stimulants are anti-acetylcholine <-- what I read, don't know how true that is. Apparently anti-acetylcholine effects are like dry mouth. Any thoughts on this?

I'm looking up melatonin/DA relationship now.

That ZMA supplement looks stupid. Zinc isn't that challenging to get in a multivitamin or from diet and the magnesium containing compound isn't even the best one available. Em, you should go buy magnesium citrate and multivitamins... I bet it is cheaper too.

Hey Op do you think Em is really interested in this science stuff , thus far?

I mean I think I umm nicely mentioned about us hijacking the thread. :p

It sounds as if Em is doing a little better, and I am sure will keep us updated as to the progress....but how about heading over the the other section (scientific ) or starting a thread of your own about this...so we can continue your "studies" and leave Em and any other's who want just the non-science part of this thread...

I think DB might follow, if his head isn't sore?


Just another friendly reminder to stay on topic....;)

Also, doing some thinking, acetylcholine is higher in REM, and stimulants are anti-acetylcholine <-- what I read, don't know how true that is. Apparently anti-acetylcholine effects are like dry mouth. Any thoughts on this?
.Acetylcholine is released in moderate doses of amphetamine and then suppressed in higher doses. The theory is this behaviour is controlled by which primary dopamine receptor is being used at the time D1 or D2.

Hey Op do you think Em is really interested in this science stuff , thus far?

I mean I think I umm nicely mentioned about us hijacking the thread. :p
You're completely correct and ill leave right now. I got all caught up in people trying to debunk every little thing i say.

Haha I'm enjoying the scientific part, I don't understand a word of it but I'm learning new words lol.. You can keep your studies in here


Yea I had a little success with the sleep tape, then again I woke up 50 minutes before school instead of 30, still had to scurry, I was confused about what to do with the extra 20 minutes lol....

I'm probably still gonna get the zma, it has B6 in there and some use that to help with add, I figure if it does it may keep my mind moving while I sleep.. But then again your scientific stuff did confuse me so maybe ill double check with the GNC people first lol or ill just get the magnesium stuff since your right and it'll be cheaper... do you have a dosage recommendation mr Einstein? lol and if I do buy just the magnesium should I take it when I sleep or during the day, cause zma says before I sleep.

And yea ill def. Keep you posted

Thanks again everyone.. Maybe ill really sleep for once .... Soon ...and still get to stay on adderall ..

Ok, so I just read about the magnesium stuff and its 800 benefits .. So maybe ill go with that, it even said stuff bout add people. Just don't like the whole thing about how it relaxes the body.. Won't that make me sleep more? Lol

and I read it makes you stool more, that's an ok side effect of it.....I guess carrying around a box of depends wouldn't hurt at the age of 22 ... Lol ill probably end up missing the same amount of class from being in the bathroom so much haha awesome

Oh and about the multi vitamins, won't that like lessen the adderall since it has vitamin C and stuff in it..

Ok so I'm gonna take all these before I sleep.. omega 3, megnesuim citrate, multi vitamins, and put my sleep music on and wear diapers just incase (lol just kiddin figured it would get a laugh) and tell you all my results tomorrow .. Luckily I have a smart phone so I can access the web from everywher haha (probably a sick joke that anyone understood hurled over) lol

If I don't respond tomorrow I wil Friday when I wake ... I do have off from school and work tomorrow that is normally a 15 to 17 hour sleep day

Acetylcholine is released in moderate doses of amphetamine and then suppressed in higher doses. The theory is this behaviour is controlled by which primary dopamine receptor is being used at the time D1 or D2.

You're completely correct and ill leave right now. I got all caught up in people trying to debunk every little thing i say.

Oops...DB...I wasn't just talking about you...LOL....(head sore?)
Bad kitty chasing Mod out of own section....yes but we are all human/ADDer's here aren't we...I was guilty myself...I won't debunk you."stuff"..or your section..promise....;)



EM...please don't encourage...us.. we might never leave...


Haha I'm enjoying the scientific part, I don't understand a word of it but I'm learning new words lol.
Me too...but.....

Yea I had a little success with the sleep tape, then again I woke up 50 minutes before school instead of 30, still had to scurry, I was confused about what to do with the extra 20 minutes lol....
But this is the main issues, no science needed. 20 minutes is a life time to some of us, good for you! Adder's can do a lot, or very little with 20 minutes!


I'm probably still gonna get the zma, it has B6 in there and some use that to help with add, I figure if it does it may keep my mind moving while I sleep..
anything you need to check with Doctor about here??? Not familiar...I am not the "scientist or doctor in the bunch...huh? LOL



But then again your scientific stuff did confuse me
My WHOLE POINT!!! (me too Em..me too) and this is why we need to leave.....except to help you on a "layman's level" which is where I am more comfortable, and so are most people here....:D


do you have a dosage recommendation mr Einstein?
Ouch....LOL


lol and if I do buy just the magnesium should I take it when I sleep or during the day, cause zma says before I sleep. Follow the directions, or doctor's advice...not ours....Please dont' make me put up the Medical Disclamer linkie again...:faint: :p


And yea ill def. Keep you posted
Thanks again everyone.. Maybe ill really sleep for once .... Soon ...and still get to stay on adderall ..

Please do Em...you have been so gracious about us hijacking your thread....and let's not encourage us to stay any longer unless we are discussing things in a way that "everyone" myself included can understand, and easily relate to. I am sure your topic will help others ...and we want to keep it simple. The brainiac stuff, has it's own section, come on over if you wanna learn some REALLY big words...:D

Have a wonderful day!

Ahah! In your face justhope, science continues here!!! <-- I say this with love, of course.

If you get magnesium citrate, space out the dosing... or learn the hard way that you should :x The reason no other magnesium supplement makes you run to the bathroom is that the bioavailability is too low. Other magnesium supplements give you a false sense of getting enough. There is enough B6 in multivitamins, as well as Zinc. About dose... just make sure to get 100% of every vitamin/mineral. I just go with the FDA on that, too lazy to research more.

Don't take the multivitamin with Adderall... take it like 2-4 hrs after taking a dose.

I wouldnt take magnesium if you're using amphetamines. It makes your bodies magnesium levels high to begin with. For some reason people got it into their little heads that taking magnesium with amphetamine will lower your drug tolerance which it might but at the risk of giving yourself a stroke or doing other sorts of damage to your body. Take what you read on here with a grain of salt.

A very cheap and cost effective experiment that wont potentially do something bad to you is to try some melatonin. They sell it in most grocery stores and it pretty much has no interactions with meds.

I wouldnt take magnesium if you're using amphetamines. It makes your bodies magnesium levels high to begin with. For some reason people got it into their little heads that taking magnesium with amphetamine will lower your drug tolerance which it might but at the risk of giving yourself a stroke or doing other sorts of damage to your body. Take what you read on here with a grain of salt.

A very cheap and cost effective experiment that wont potentially do something bad to you is to try some melatonin. They sell it in most grocery stores and it pretty much has no interactions with meds.http://www.krispin.com/magnes.html
The following substances and conditions reduce total body magnesium <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY></TBODY></TABLE>

Alcohol- all forms cause significant losses
Amphetamines/Cocaine
EDIT: http://www.peacehealth.org/kbase/cam/hn-1160000.htm

Whatever... I hate science.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=7761553&query_hl=9&itool=pubmed_docsum

Levels of calcium in plasma, red blood cells, and mononuclear blood cells, levels of calcium in plasma, and the plasma calcium-to-magnesium ratio were measured at baseline and after 3 weeks of each drug phase of a double-blind, placebo-controlled study of methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine in hyperactive boys. Levels of magnesium in plasma were significantly higher after 3 weeks of dextroamphetamine treatment, and the calcium-to-magnesium ratio was significantly lower after 3 weeks of either drug compared with the baseline or placebo condition. There was no change in magnesium levels in red blood cells or mononuclear blood cells. These measures were obtained 30 minutes before the morning dose and at 9 a.m., 9:30 a.m., 10:30 a.m., 11:00 a.m., and noon on the last day of each 3-week phase. Analysis of variance revealed a drug effect on plasma magnesium and on the calcium-to-magnesium ratio but no drug x time interaction. Although these changes were not correlated with the time course of acute symptomatic response to stimulant therapy, the decrease in the ratio may be relevant to side effects and treatment resistance associated with stimulant use.Stop giving people bad advice that could potentially hurt them.

Yeah, you know what, beyond a study about little hyperactive boys, I can't find anything else saying that amphetamines increase Mg... Considering I just posted the website citing that article, it wasn't too challenging to find that eh? Look more grr.

I know cocaine isn't amphetamines but same kinda thing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8223954&dopt=Citation

Op...I say this with the "stern" parent-like "love" approach....you have to leave now or leave off all the "scientific stuff" . :D

You need to start your own thread now...so we don't have to play moderate" and push magic buttons...to make all your lovely work go "away" where no one else can "enjoy" it...please....(need to click on the guidelines, right below my sig line??? huh?) ;)

Stay on the topic....help with the vitamans, minerals help... etc, if you like...keeping in mind to also staying with the the (omg medical disclaimer guidelines, OP please don't make me copy and paste anymore..member I am NOT a morning person...:p )

You will have a lot more challenges in our scientific section....and higher IQ's to butt heads with or expand your theories with. Remember those guys/gals over there are ADD and most are medicated too And they are actually interested and understand most of what you are talking about...unlike most of us over here........???? (not that I am implying myself or anyone else has a low IQ out of that section , just well, I think EM said it already I'M CONFUSED!!!!

Clear out....(science/theory/ lab ratty stuff) before ....we wave the magic wand...pooof....

thanks Op ;)

ok :(

I don't mind the scientific names and stuff, confusing yes, but it gets more indepth with what's going on... That's after I look up the words of course lol but rules are rules.... I'm thinking about getting the zma but ill ask the guy at gnc this way you don't have to put the disclaimer up lol, I forgot about that sorry. No magic wand poofing needed lol.. Well I'm gonna go to gnc now.. Ill Let you all know what happens. Who knows maybe the fix is a vitamin away... And I already asked my doc he said to change my med possibly or to put me on sleeping pills.. Trust me I'd rather take a vitamin then another prescription anyday

I think I have a few studies on people going to GNC ... Just kidding.

Em,
Some questions-but you don't have to answer here-just think about this! I teach food and nutrition and can talk about this in everyday person language, not science speak, so hopefully I can help you with the Magnesium and Zinc questions. I also have a massage therapist who medically trained too and we discuss these issues and health alot.




How old are you-teen, 20's, 30's, not the exact years! :D
Are you an athlete or exercise vigorously?
Do you have diabetes?
Take antiB's for acne?
Drink a lot of alcohol?
Why do I ask? Each of the above can affect your magnesium levels or amount needed. If you were female the list would be longer!

BTW: Do NOT pay for expensive vitamins and minerals. Save the extra bucks for tech stuff, alarm clocks, music downloads. The shelves at your local discount department store and any pharmacy have low cost supplements that are just as effective. Unless you believe in the placebo effect-if I pay more they will work better! There could be differences in how your body uses different forms or sources of the supplements.

I added some links below to the (http://www.nutrition.gov/)www.nutrition.gov (http://www.nutrition.gov) website. The US govs website. It is excellent and very easy to understand the information-but it is not dumbed down, just put in everyday language.I feel like a rat in Skinner's shock box. :D (I know science talk, a link at the end for laughs!) Here is a link that explains Magnesium very well. One fact about Magnesium is that the vast majority of American diets are deficient in it and people who eat a lot of meat need more B6.

Info about Dietary supplements (http://www.nutrition.gov/index.php?mode=subject&subject=ng_supplements&d_subject=Dietary%20Supplements)
List of links to all types of supplements-Vitamins, minerals, nutraceuticals (simply put, foods, herbs, etc used as medicine):
List of Dietary Supplement Fact Sheets (http://ods.od.nih.gov/Health_Information/Information_About_Individual_Dietary_Supplements.a spx)
Magnesium: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium.asp
Zinc: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/cc/zinc.html
B6:

Ok, so I just read about the magnesium stuff and its 800 benefits .. So maybe ill go with that, it even said stuff bout add people. Just don't like the whole thing about how it relaxes the body.. Won't that make me sleep more? Lol
and I read it makes you stool more, that's an ok side effect of it.....I guess carrying around a box of depends wouldn't hurt at the age of 22 ... Lol ill probably end up missing the same amount of class from being in the bathroom so much haha awesome EM, you won't need depends or pee a lot, you most likely will not see a huge difference unless you take several grams of it. That is not a good idea! Too much of a good thing is not good. Like alcohol, food, etc. You will most likely notice the difference more when you don't take the magnesium. I have fibromyalgia and am post-menopausal, both are helped by increased magnesium, up to 400mg a day, some say 500mg. I take a calcium, magnesium, zinc tablet along with a multi and time-release B supplement, and Omega 3.

Oh and about the multi vitamins, won't that like lessen the adderall since it has vitamin C and stuff in it.

Ok so I'm gonna take all these before I sleep.. omega 3, megnesuim citrate, multi vitamins, and put my sleep music on and wear diapers just incase (lol just kiddin figured it would get a laugh) and tell you all my results tomorrow .. Luckily I have a smart phone so I can access the web from everywher haha (probably a sick joke that anyone understood hurled over) lol
If you like, you can take the supplements at bedtime with a light snack. I try to avoid taking all my meds and supplements at once anyway. That way the vitamins will not cause any problems with your Adderall or other meds. You could also try a time-release B-vitamin it will keep the B's at a more steady level in you bloodstream thus helping you more. They are water soluble and are excreted in you urine. Have you noticed the bright yellow color that fades as the day goes on? That is the B supplement leaving your body.

Great laugh! I worried about needing depends when my antiB gave me the runs, afraid I would wake up too late. :eek: Uh, just don't flush when on the phone. And put your phone on a wrist strap. If you know what I mean! LOL! Unless you like fishing!

Take care, hey I may be older, but I ain't dead and I ain't stuffy or in a freaking rocking chair! Heck, I cuss a blue stream some days-shocks the young'uns terribly! :D Life is short, eat dessert first!

Thanks for all the info and links!!

welll it was an easy choice, i went into GNC they had no magnesium citrate so i took ZMA lol... i kind of explained my situation without spilling my medication information she pretty much got the hint and told me that people try melatonin sometimes and it works.. so if this doesnt theres another solution to try hahah i love making myself a ginny pig haha

ok :(

Thank ou Op...I really don't like being rude...but you are kinda...ummm HARDHEADED....:D

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 404299" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>optimum00</TD><TD class=alt2>I think I have a few studies on people going to GNC ... Just kidding.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Not that I would dream of encouraging you...that is funny...smart alec.


Em,
The first thing my pdoc said I had to take before he started me back on stimulants...was a good multi-vitaman and he suggested Omega 3's...which I take......., he also suggested I try the melatonin and or valerian root. I like my doc because he not only uses standard pharmacutical meds, but herbal...and the sound/light therapy and coaching...he's very open minded...well rounded......

I took Melatonin , worked good for me, except sometimes I would still wake up in the middle of the night....aargh. It worked well for my oldest son.
I tried Valerian Root worked great, stinks to high heaven.....but when the ravages of BPDII kicked into hypomanic drive..a freight train couldn't knock me out..I had to go to standard script meds. No that I am balanced out, I don't need anything .......

Please don't say guiena pig on here...OMG>....you guys are going to give me a coronary....can't you call the doctor and ask, if he is opposed, based on your medical background to you taking the Melatonin????? Even if he doesn't agree with it, can you say will it affect me negatively physically? And if he says no...ignore the rest...and then go get it????


VI is wonderful ain't she!!!!! Great Job Teacher B!!!! http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n100/justhope_36/Emoticons/cheerleadersmilie.gif

I already called my doc, he said its fine for me to take the zma.. He doesn't really believe in supplements and such lol . But he said it shouldn't effect me at all.

Most of them do say that unfortuantely....that is why I like my doctor..more like he works for me and not the pharmacutical companies....

Well there you go then....:D

I am the same damn waay
cant wait till I graduate, never touchin this drug ever again

Deco? Same way about sleeping? Hate what Adderall?

Why do you hate it?

And why would you stop taking it after school? ADD doesn't leave, after school?

Just curious...?? ;)

BTW,,,Deco..I didn't see you over in my little world? New Member's Intro's? If you get a chance will you go over there and give us a brief intro? Little bout yourself??? Might help avoid some the the above questions being repeated????
If you wanna....:)

ok.... so i have good news and bad news... the good news is i woke up feeling pretty refreshed the bad news i slept for 12 hours lol.... i had very lucid dreams which is one thing it says it would do. maybe it need to get into my system more ,... im gonna add melatonin into the mixture tonight when i sleep i was reading about that somewhere too that taking omega 3, melatonin and zma is a good combo ... lol.. well i guess 12 hours of sleep on my day off is better then 14,, haha

Lucid dreams=refreshing wakeup= automatically
My suggestion is to let your body sleep that long and eventually the amount will lower.

okay i will, atleast i only have work the rest of the week until next monday this way i wont miss any school hahah im gonna add melatonin into the mix since i was reading that it refreshes the sleep cycle...haha i take more crap before i sleep then when i am awake haha

Day 2: so last night I took zma by itself again, for some reason I had trouble sleeping and ended up only sleeping for 3 hours. I did altho wake up by myself, it took half an hour of the alarm to ring for me to wake but I did... I ended up waking up with a massive headache which went away 10 minutes later. I had a headache yesterday also but it wasn't this intense... But again today, now that the headache has passed I feel great and energized. I shall look into this whole headache thing and if its something minor continue with zma if something else I will try melatonin... But so far so good lol seems I am getting closer to a solution.. Atleast I can feel my bodys getting rest ... Ill let you all know what happens tomorrow

A little update on day 2: I did some research on the headaches, not a lot cause I'm at schooll using my phone lol.
..

- I saw it can be a sideeffect on high dosages, but I don't take the recommended dosage I take 1 vitamin not 2 like it says.. Then I read on one site that says if you don't take atleast 11mg it can give sideeffects. But who knows could just be an advertisement thing to sell it .. So ill keep researchin that unless someone knows about why I may be gettin headaches.


- I noticed past 2 days that my adderall seems to work faster . Usually I take it when I wake around 630, and it doesn't kick in till 730 sometimes 8.. I noticed past 2 days that its effects are starting a little past 7 and last longer through the day. It could just be me or the fact I'm actually sleeping for once while on adderall...


-Ill keep ya posted.. Its the least I can do for all the help. As long as noones getting annoyed


-Thanks again everyone (even those who know the big medical words and descriptions that only 3 percent that visit this site understand haha lol )

Well, maybe since REM is thought to alter receptors the Adderall is able to work better since the receptors have been rejuvenated.

Day 3: so I slept 13 hours and I'm an hour late for work.... Lol I think the adderall over powered the zma.. I'm gonna try takin melatonin, omega 3 and zma for a day or 2 starting tonight and see what happens before I give up and go to the docs

I already called my doc, he said its fine for me to take the zma.. He doesn't really believe in supplements and such lol . But he said it shouldn't effect me at all.


Okay not wanting to get any ones undergarments in a wad here but over all general thought to keep in mind is

#1-Any thing that has an effect can have a BAD one. This is not simply restricted to prescriptions medications it also applies to herbal supplements, and even some foods.

An example of foods is citric acid can decrease absorption of ADD medications, while some may increase absorption.


#2 – People selling crap are not going to be capable of objective opinions or observations so I would do my own research into the individual contents of this ZMA before investing money


#3 Some times things work simply because we think they will so if some one says some thing works then it probably does for them. I live with a man who believes he can have a cold cleared up with a dose of ampacillin which is basically scientifically impossible however it works for him

Why ?

Because he hasn’t read the scientific studies nor does he know how antibiotics work – it is called the placebo effect. It works simply because he thinks it does. Please note all scientific studies of medications also include a control group taking a placebo - and there are always those who actually experience both relief and side effects from what is equivalent to a sugar pill.

Although not in any scientific literature there is the reverse placebo effect where a method of treatment or a medication will not work because the person does not believe it will. Some ideas to throw out there – as if there aren’t enough already.

When I can’t sleep I simply take melatonin or stay wake Insomnia is a self limiting syndrome when you get tired enough you will sleep when you have had enough sleep you will wake up = no one has died of insomnia or over dosed on sleep. The more one worries the more anxiety will be produced around sleeping . . . . the anxiety alone may decrease the quality of sleep one experiences.

Other approaches

Exercise during the day but more than three hours before planned bed time.

If one had problem falling asleep and is on CNS stimulants try adjusting the time of the last stimulant dose with your doctor’s approval of coarse. Two thing scan happen with CNS stimulants and sleep .

A – they stimulant thus keeping one awake . . . . .

Some people can wake up an hour early take their medication and go back to sleep , only to be woken up by the stimulating effects of the ADD medication or they will become easier to wake up.


B- Rebound effect which is the group I fall into - If I stay wake after my last does of Adderall has worn off I will be up all night. I rebound {become more hyper} when my medications wear off. I can wake up take my Adderall and go back to sleep and sleep through the entire effects of the medication but wake up when the medication n wears off because the bloomin rebound is what wakes me up . . . . .

C- it may not be medication related ,, it may be related to you as a person. Gary is very hyperactive and at night he requires 10-12 hours of sleep per day, he can't function on less than 9 {even though the lit says an adult requires 7-8} He does not take medications. He is a sound sleeper the only difference between him and a dead guy is he has a pulse and respirations – he wakes up find but wanders for an hour before he knows who he is but once wound up he out does the energizer bunny this is his individual pattern.

I am also hyperactive ADD but only require about 6 hours of sleep. I am also a slow to get going in the morning so slow that Gary brings me coffee in bed so I will get out of it. . . .the coffee won’t stimulate me but it will my bladder once my feet hit the ground I am up. This is my individual pattern.


{the moral of this story if you sleep 12 hours a day then simply arrange your schedule around sleeping 12 hours a day. There are no "rules" saying one can not sleep longer than eight only people who do not allow for thier own individual patterns - hyper people especially hyper young people may require a lot of sleep. It is simply the way you are, acceptence is the most logical approach}


Please do bare in mind that ADD loves company – company like anxiety , bi-polar, depression, all of which can effect sleep. I have known people whose bi-polar symptoms were so subtle their weird a** sleep patterns was the biggest give away of their condition.

D - Disclaimer – it could be this or it could that or fifty other things which is why a doctor’s assistance is so important




***I am not sure if this is on topic or not{it may be pill time again} but I trust the moderators in this section can edit my post as easily as any one else’s the big difference for me is I will not get upset about it. ;)

C- it may not be medication related ,, it may be related to you as a person. Gary is very hyperactive and at night he requires 10-12 hours of sleep per day, he can't function on less than 9 {even though the lit says an adult requires 7-8}Just to add to Meadd's brilliant as usual post: new studies are leaning toward 9+ hours of sleep as being the average needed. As if we need more information about our sleep deprived society. There are, of course, those rare, efficient, individuals who are able to rapidly go into restful sleep so they don't need to sleep as long as us "inefficient" sleepers.

Day 4: well I took melatonin last night by itself:

I took it and ended up waking up 3 hours later. Went back to sleep, I got up when my alarm rang then went back to sleep again lol.. Hey atleast I woke 2 times first time in 5 months.. I'm going to try zma and melatonin tonight together.. if I get the same results I'm just gonna take an adderall those times when I wake up.. So hopefully this wasn't a one day thing. I'm happy to see some result.
Thanks again everyone ill keep you updated

and I read it makes you stool more, that's an ok side effect of it.....I guess carrying around a box of depends wouldn't hurt at the age of 22 ... Lol ill probably end up missing the same amount of class from being in the bathroom so much haha awesome


Mag citrate is a stronger laxative than milk of magnesia we are beginning to understand the side effects of magnesium it doesn't sound like sleeping is among them. . .although magnesium may help those with constipation :D



em I get good results from melatonin by it self especially if I turn the computer off and Gary turns his TV off. It works better if I take it at the same time a coupe of night in a row and lay down to sleep about 30 minutes later.

Hey everyone here's my last update on this, well unless something changes..

Soon after my last post I went to the doctor and told him my situation, he said there's not much to do but change my medicine. I told him no lol..

He then suggested for one week to let my body sleep for as long as it wanted to everyday and not restrict it to 6 -8 hours of sleep. Which is impossible for me because of school and work..

He then told me to try to change my sleep schedule and try to sleep a few hours hours earlier at night and set my alarm earlier. But that I can't do either.

So he told me to stick with melatonin for a little longer.. The melatonin seemed to start working after 2 weeks of taking it. I can wake up now I have no idea how I do but I wake up.. I say I have no idea how because of this:

For example. I set 1 alarm at 5 am, one alarm at 6 am and one alarm at 630 am.. And I end up waking up at either 540 ish or like 620ish, with no alarm sound in the air when I wake lol so I dunno if I'm turning it off in my sleep then waking lol but I wake that's all that matters..

Another example. On my days off ...which is when I let my body sleep for like 9 hours..(the days when I used to sleep 15 hours lol) . I set one alarm for 11 the other for 1PM but I wake up at 12. Lol so I'm not sure really.

I def wake up now though. I Haven't been late for school or work since then. I'm probably going to try throwing zma or omega 3 into the mix soon, maybe then I can open my eyes and be conscience when the alarm is sounding.

There's my update, I would have posted sooner but finals are a killer of time ..

Thanks everyone for the help! I really appreciate it!

My ADHD doctor told me that stimulants can disturb deep sleep. They can also cause Limb Movements in 20-40 second cycles which keep us from getting deep sleep.

Result: sleep is disrupted hundreds of times/night. Decreased sleep efficiency => rebound sleepiness to compensate for the constant sleep fragmentation.

Have you had a Sleep Study?

I'm curious Optimum00, (If you will grace me with your knowledge?), but your comments about the effects of lack of a deep sleep on ones memory is of personal interest me. When I was younger, before I really had any concept of what ADD was, I was prescribed some diet pills (phentermine) for a total of 4-6 months. I took them everyday and felt I could have stayed on them forever becuase it alleviated most of my ADD barriers. Unfortunately however, roughly within the 4th or 5th month of taking the drug, I noticed my short term memory function had become very poor. I was also getting grumpy and started having angry outburst. I started to worry about it and (like an idiot) abruptly stopped taking the drug out of fear that the amphetamines where destroying my brain and person. I then endured a strange form of withdrawel (emotionally flatness) that seemed to go on for about two years. I don't think I ever regained my former self in full, but eventually adapted to what was left. I remained terrified of amphetamines for years afterwards, thus putting off effective treatment of my ADD which kept my life in limbo. After reading your post, I am now wondering if my memory and aggitation issues that were associated with my inital use of amphetamines, were more a result of the amphetamines affecting my deep sleep cycle rather than nerological damage by the drug itself. Perhaps I would have less fear of the drug if I knew my problems were due to drug induced sleep deprivation. If clonidine where to help with such, as you suggested, I would think it a double benefit because it would not only help with the sleep but maybe counteract some of the hypertension caused by the ampetamine. Your thoughts on this, if you have any, would be greatly appreciated.

I should also note that since I started back on adderall, I have gained some of my old self back. I still worry about becoming a angry and forgetful scatter brain again, but I only take adderall (15mg xr) once daily 3-4 days a week which I hope will thwart such.