View Full Version : The Antisocial/Borderline connection


Matt S.
07-18-07, 05:33 PM
I am getting a bit annoyed, now calling myself Antisocial doesn't feel good but my conscience is underdeveloped (but I am starting to have guilt and empathy so the 'never changing' aspect of sociopathic tendencies is unfair) but back on topic.
I have read somewhere about the fact that ASPD affected people seem to attract people with Borderline PD. Not to be cold or mean but with me it seems to be every friend I have and even my mother, I literally feel like a magnet to them and I mean the severe Fatal Attraction types too. My question is why?
My conscience is still limited and at times selective and that isn't my choice and I have been slowly getting responsible so there's no more parasitic behavior from my younger years, I don't break the law much either. I am to the extent of being paranoid (I am 26, male bisexual and rather attractive) when it comes to trying to start a relationship with anyone because the "Alex Forrest's" I tend to attract (not to say all BPD affected people are that bad so please don't take offense) are vindictive and ruin my life. I blame a lot, but not anything like I get from this.
I hate it because even though I am almost at a point to where ASPD is not there they come like gnats.
Does anyone know why this happens? What can I do to change it?

blink
07-18-07, 11:38 PM
It is good you are getting treatment for aspd. I applaud you for that.
I know a woman diagnosed with boderline personality and observed some of the tendencies you mentioned. She seemed to flock to people/situations that for her were destructive. It was puzzling to watch but it seemed really difficult for her to avoid.
It could also be possible that not everyone that seems to be drawn to you has certain mood and personality disorders. It could just be a residual tendency you have to view others in your life as possible victims. I would encourage you to continue to work with your Doctor or therapist to strengthen/develop your conscience. It should help to reverse this trend.

QueensU_girl
07-18-07, 11:45 PM
It is a common occurence, but not a rule that borderline/traumatized females tend to get into rel'ps with anti-social//narcissistic/ bonding disordered males, yes.

Both disorders result, it is thought, from trauma, or not having one's needs met. (e.g. one can have a parental loss at 18-36 months... critical bonding dev'pt periods).

I have heard of non-abuse development of borderline: a child with a long term infant case of severe ear infection. Parents didn't know what was wrong with her. Yeesh!

So, a child who is chronically in distress, or witnessing others in distress/seeing cruelty, is at risk of BOTH these disorders.

Borderline seems to be what females get, and Antosocial (ASPD) seems to be what males get. Like two sides of the same coin.

There are Borderline males, though, and Antisocial women. They are just usually more dilute versions, or show signs of traits/not the whole disorder. For example: you generally wont' see a Female who can score as a Psychopath (ASPD;similar) on the Psychopathy Checklist (PCL; Dr. Bob Hare's tool). They just don't exist on the same spectrum as males do...

I have also heard of psychopathy/ASPD and Borderline coming from kids who watch their mother being upset. (Our mother's emotional reactions/face modulate our infantile and childhood emotional thermometer. If we see her upset, it upsets up as children. This is why Watching Family Violence and our parent being abused and helplessly in pain is so Destructive to Children. See Daniel Goleman's Social Intelligence, etc for more on this.)

Trauma repeats... People repeat roles... or, repeat other's roles or opposite roles. (Karpman's Triangle)

They are trying to figure their subconcious ^&*% out.


If a girl grows up watching her mother be abused by an ASPD male, she will grow up being attracted to ASPD males, typically.


These are called "archetypes". Our Father Figures are models for the men we will be attracted to. (Or, alternately, strongly repelled against.)


You are seeing Transference phenomenon, MSPEN.


Some people can also feel "excited" or "in love" with someone who "should" frighten them. They mislabel their sympathetic "arousal" and Fear experience as a Love experience.
Or they will say they are "in love" when it is really "pity".

Anyway, this is the Theory. Repeating the Roles we know. We all do it. We live what we know. ;)

The trick is to question the thinking (or lack of thinking:

e.g. "gee Rose, if you throw yourself into every drama around you, i can see that it keeps you from having to "see" or "deal with" your own problems..." :P


You can read more on Transferences and other Psychological Defences on Wikipedia, probably.

DBT helps. (But you can't put the ASPD/Psychopaths in with the Borderlines, or they will start victimizing them. They cannot be together in Group Therapy....)

QueensU_girl
07-19-07, 12:04 AM
The only treatment I have read of for ASPD is empathy training.

But most people have no motivation to change.

There is some evidence that people with ASPD/Psychopathy don't have the same brain function and Galvanic Skin Responses and heartrate accelerations as the rest of us when under stress. It is like the emotional brain is missing something.

Robert Hare's book gives references for this. It is called WITHOUT CONSCIENCE.

----------

I am detecting a bit of conscience in you MSPEN. Or else I doubt you would even mention the concerns you mentioned....

Psychopathy/ASPD is EGO SYNTONIC.

Yours sounds a bit EGO DYSTONIC, don't you think?

:)

Matt S.
09-13-07, 05:29 PM
It isn't that I victimize them it is that I notice the pattern i.e. the borderline traits, and cease to care, and establish coldly the boundaries, I am not one of those "evil" psychopaths that go on killing sprees I just don't care about a lot of people or myself for the fact of the matter, I prefer not to be bothered and can be really emotionally abusive to fight them off. The physical abusiveness and animal creulty crap, that is the antisocial crap my brother did and does for attention, I grew up being diagnosed as bipolar and had a borderline oversensitive mother who wouldn't leave me alone and ignored my little attention seeking brother, I am/was antisocial because I blamed my behavior on bipolar disorder and never felt guilt until two years ago, by definition I am/was a secondary psychopath and yes therapy will help me eventually and by definition (hence the secondary psychopath feels guilt). I guess I should add that I knew a girl who I might add was a psychopath and she was just vindictive and spiteful

QueensU_girl
09-22-07, 08:22 PM
How did you have a borderline oversensitive parent? that's an oxymoron. LOL ;)

Females tend to not be psychopaths. They just don't score that high on the PCL rating scale...

Matt S.
09-23-07, 12:48 PM
Yeah maybe overreact is the right word, and the girl I was thinking about was just this evil girl I worked with who was obsessed with getting the other women fired and she lied and was lazy at work and passed the blame to everyone else, she was the "little princess" of the owner of the place and it was a salon, I might add so it goes without saying, but if any I have met anyone, in my whole life, that could kill someone and not care (I was incarcerated in my early adult life too I might add) it was this girl.

QueensU_girl
09-23-07, 02:26 PM
She might be histrionic, too.

But, yes, ASPD and the Dramatic PDs (borderline, histrionic, etc) tend to go together like a horse-and-carriage.

This is why you won't see males admitted to female only DBT treatment/group therapy programs. :)

Predator/Prey, right?

(Although I would argue that something like the stereotypical female-style PDs tend to vacillate on the extreme continuum between the role of Predator/Prey.)

Matt S.
09-24-07, 11:07 AM
Yeah that's true because she liked me, probably because I never told anyone else all of the rules that she was breaking, I guess?