View Full Version : Humbly seeking advice


neon600
08-21-07, 05:51 PM
Ok, I really thought the dairy elimination diet was a God send and that everything was gonna be roses, however she has now had two rage episodes even though she is dairy free. How in the world do I tell if its puberty or deeper than ADHD type issues? Alot about her has improved, sleep, eating habits, demeanor etc. But there have been two occasions (one at daycare today that scared the crap out of her teachers) where she has been hitting other kids, kicking them and then when called for it started screaming at the teacher "I wont talk to you about it", she has been 100 mile an hour all day according to her teachers and has just been crazy like.
She is 10 and was on adderall xr 20 mgs for close to two years. Mind you MIA dad (sperm donor) is bipolar and also had rage episodes and is a physical abuser.
I have also taken off the rose colored glasses at this point. Any direction here would be wonderful!

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 05:54 PM
Neon, would you like to come over to the Co-Existing Conditions forum and we can find you some stuff about Pediatric Bipolar?

neon600
08-21-07, 05:55 PM
Thank you Crazy~Feet, how do I go about that?

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 06:07 PM
From the front page, its after Treatments and Management. Click Bipolar and then the Children's Option.

I'll meet ya there. :)

neon600
08-21-07, 06:14 PM
silly me!, I actually did find it.
What I am confused about is the depression part, she doesnt seem to be depressed, there are just days where she is out of control, she couldnt even tell me why it had happened. I can see the "manic" behavior, but am confused by the other symptoms they say must be present. She went for a ride with a friend and her friends Dad and before leaving walked up to me and hugged me and actually asked me to kiss her. Everything just seemed to be going so well after the elimination diet (which as you may recall I touted all around here on the forum!) but now I just dont know. She does have a pimple on her face which is only the second one I have seen. Could it just be severe PMS due to her ADHD?

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 06:44 PM
Well I certainly cannot rule out or diagnose anything...but I did do some research for you :) while I was waiting for you to post over there...DUH! I didn't ask you to post, did I? :o

What are the symptoms of bipolar disorder in children?

Bipolar disorder involves marked changes in mood and energy. Persistent states of extreme elation or agitation accompanied by high energy are called mania. Persistent states of extreme sadness or irritability accompanied by low energy are called depression.

However, the illness may look different in children than it does in adults. Children usually have an ongoing, continuous mood disturbance that is a mix of mania and depression. This rapid and severe cycling between moods produces chronic irritability and few clear periods of wellness between episodes.

Diagnosis is made using the DSM-IV criteria, for which there is no lower age limit. See section below for DSM-IV criteria. However, it becomes more difficult to apply the DSM-IV criteria to very young children.



Behaviors reported by parents in children diagnosed with bipolar disorder may include:



an expansive or irritable mood
extreme sadness or lack of interest in play
rapidly changing moods lasting a few hours to a few days
explosive, lengthy, and often destructive rages
separation anxiety
defiance of authority
hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility
sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much
bed wetting and night terrors
strong and frequent cravings, often for carbohydrates and sweets
excessive involvement in multiple projects and activities
impaired judgment, impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking
dare-devil behaviors (such as jumping out of moving cars or off roofs)
inappropriate or precocious sexual behavior
delusions and hallucinations
grandiose belief in own abilities that defy the laws of logic (ability to fly, for example)
The family trees of many children who develop early-onset bipolar disorder include individuals who suffered from substance abuse and/or mood disorders (often undiagnosed). Also among their relatives are found highly-accomplished, creative, and extremely successful individuals in business, politics, and the arts.

neon600
08-21-07, 07:05 PM
heres some of what of I see:

irritable mood
changing moods lasting a few days
rages
hyperactivity, agitation, and distractibility
sleeping little or, alternatively, sleeping too much
impulsivity, racing thoughts, and pressure to keep talking (she did this last night)

otoh, she seems to have more periods of wellness going on than the episodes, hence the confusion for me.

If you want you can move this to the bipolar forum though.

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 07:32 PM
OK now that I can address pretty easily! That's not at all unusual.

What Are the Symptoms of Bipolar Disorder?

Bipolar disorder causes dramatic mood swings—from overly "high" and/or irritable to sad and hopeless, and then back again, often with periods of normal mood in between. Severe changes in energy and behavior go along with these changes in mood. The periods of highs and lows are called episodes of mania and depression.


I have bipolar disorder type II myself. I don't think I know of anybody here who constantly cycles and never has stable periods in between at all. I know I don't. Differences between BP people's cycles can vary pretty widely. Some people only cycle several times a year, some every month, and there is rapid-cycling where the cycles can occure very frequently. There have been cases of people going years between cycles, and there is such a thing as ultradian-rapid-cycles that occur many times over the space of one day.

I'm not saying that the child definitely has bipolar? What I am saying is that there are some pretty overwhelming factors here and that it can't hurt to investigate the possibility.

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 07:35 PM
Let me see who can move this for me. :) Just hang on and look for it over there if its not here anymore, ok?

neon600
08-21-07, 07:36 PM
Ok, I see where your coming from now, she has a doctors appt in Sept so I will address this with him. And I know you said your not a doctor or anything but just need some guidance as to whether it would be better to start her on the adderall again due to the fact school starts Thursday, and I am not ready to deal with another hellish year of teachers nor do I want her to suffer from what she is going through

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 07:49 PM
Neon, that's a very reasonable concern. Of course you want her to be able to focus in school :) what parent wouldn't?

My almost-12 year old, a member here named Spacemania, has both Bipolar and ADHD. So do I. We have to treat both of them, but the bipolar has to be addressed first or the ADHD stuff goes right out the window.

Its possible for stimulants to trigger mania/hypomania in bipolars who are not on mood stabilizers...and for some that will happen even if they are on stabilizers. Some manage for years on stimulants and this never happens to them. It can be hard to tell.

Do you notice any marked increase in any of the problem behaviors when she has taken Adderall as opposed to when she has not?

neon600
08-21-07, 07:54 PM
thats a tough one, she started having really out of control episodes close to when school let out, I had taken her back to counseling at that point and thats when we decided to do the elimination diet all at the same time (that was the first week of June) so she was off meds and going through the elimination diet. She has only had two episodes since (matter of fact I posted a "rage episode" prior to this but then ended it by saying "never mind, its dairy withdrawal" which maybe it wasnt after all), so since June this would really only be her second episode. She didnt have any of them while on the adderall, I do recall her having them when they put her on either Strattera or Concerta (cant remember which one it was)

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 08:23 PM
That makes sense too...I am sure you may get a little tired of my saying that :o but like you have probably heard over and over regarding ADHD, all of this is variable for bipolars as well.

Spacemania: Misdiagnosed as depressed (I cannot believe these dumb doctors even exist anymore :mad: that confuse ADHD with depression!! UGH!) and prescribed Zoloft. Had her first severe hypomania, manifesting as sort of a rage attack...as she hurled her pill bottle at me, screaming: "I HATE THIS STUFF!! ITS MAKING ME WORSE!!"...in any event, that's not at all normal behavior for her.

Diagnosed with ADHD, prescribed Adderall XR, and during the titration process, had another severe hypomanic episode, this time manifesting as a sort of pychotic episode. She was hostile, angry and paranoid. Prescribed Concerta, which did not make her hypomanic, but she complained repeatedly that it didn't really work. She had yet to be diagnosed with bipolar.

Me: Diagnosed ADHD. Since Space tolerated Concerta, I took it too. Eventually, we determined that the Concerta was provoking me, specifically, it was making me extremely hypomanic. I was diagnosed with BPII. Started my first BP med, really bad reaction. Changed to Adderall XR, it didn't work for me at all, but did not make me hypomanic. My second,and third BP meds either failed or gave me horrible side effects. Hit upon Lamictal, which I have taken ever since as a mood stabilizer, and also Abilify to control agitation. Tried Dexedrine for ADHD. It worked and did not provoke hypomania. Success at last!

Meanwhile, Space's symptoms, the ones that overlap in bipolar and ADHD, did not go away. She was diagnosed with pediatric BPII, and prescribed a mood stabilizer that allowed her hypomanic sleeplessness to stop but did little else, and all the while she griped about the Concerta. She asked to try my meds, since I was clearly not as miserable as she was, and the doctor agreed. Now she takes Lamictal, Dexedrine and Risperdal (I cannot take that due to side effects but she can. Go figure). That works well for her.

So even between the two of us, the reactions varied.

neon600
08-21-07, 08:31 PM
I wont get tired of you saying it, this obviously makes much more sense to you than it does me.....LOL

but, this stuff is sooooo hard! I made the mistake of looking for that cure all natural way stuff and still we arent there. I see the possibilities though of bipolar (she's pre disposed basically, I do know that I suffered alot of depression earlier in life, even spent 7 years in and out of therapy, but never realized all this would end up on her) Point being, I will continue researching and keeping an eye on her daily moods or any episodes that do come up. I do have a call into her counselor that I made quite a few hours ago, wont be able to speak to her till tomorrow though.

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 08:44 PM
Well the most important thing I think any of us can do is "don't give up"! That's great news that you can get in so fast to see her counselor like that, so many people have to wait.

As sad as it might be to see the genetic connections, do yourself a favor and toss the guilt away if you can, OK? I have plenty of my own and its a hard thing to struggle with. I know for a fact that it was my genes that traveled on down and did this to Space...then again, I also have two children that were raised by their father, because where was I? In and out of the hospital, for years...and they told me I was depressed, for the better part of twenty years! Such things were not understood like they are now, and nobody caught them in me until I was 40 years old.

And another of my children is a member here, called Missing. Her father does not like psychiatrists, and she is now 18 and makes her own decisions...but ya know what? She has had some terrible depressions, truly awful to witness those and be unable to do nothing, then realize that her depressions don't stay. They come and then they go and in between, she seems to be fine...but I wonder: Did I do it again?

neon600
08-21-07, 08:54 PM
I am no where near giving up on her, she is so wonderfully intelligent (beyond me, she even told me I spelled advice wrong on my post...LOL) and she has HUGE potential and I dont want to see it wasted. And yes, there is alot of guilt, I wont splash all the details on here, but there are some huge factors going on here and I hate that she is going through this. She deserves soooo much more and didnt ask to be like this.
Thankfully I am in a much better place and dont get depressed like I did in my 20's, so thats good for her. (I'm also 40ish...LOL) I will wake up again tomorrow and still seek the answers as to how to help her. Thanks for hanging in with me Crazy~Feet, hopefully she will get there, and I will do my darndest to get her there. Whatever it takes!

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 09:02 PM
You're welcome and it was my pleasure, really. There is a saying: "You cannot keep it unless you give it away." and that's why I do what I do. Hopefully, when I do, I help somebody else. :)

Remember we're here, myself and my peers, the ADDF "Cycling Team" ;). If the diagnosis does turn out to be bipolar, several of us here have bipolar children too. You will need support, and nobody needs to go through it alone.

neon600
08-21-07, 09:07 PM
Thank you so much, and that is what I love about this place! I am not alone and I wont have to deal with it alone even though I am raising her alone.

Crazy~Feet
08-21-07, 09:09 PM
I love it here too...what's not to love? :D

justhope
08-21-07, 11:12 PM
Hi Neon, long time no see!


I see CF has been taking care of you...

My son...Keenan was dx at age 4-5 with ADD. He was on stimulants the better part of his life. He was always difficult to handle. He never seemed depressed per sae, but boy was he angry and aggitated. I would learn later, that is a sign of depression in kids. Funny how the world views depression as so one sided. I never thought I was depressed either. Not very often. Meaning I didn't cry all the time, lay in bed and Wo is me..but man was I angry and aggitated all the time. Voile...I was depressed.

Although Keenan didn't show major signs, and he did well on the stims for awhile. Man when he hit puberty,,it was all out war. He was mood switching so fast I couldn't keep up. He would sleep 12 hours a day then go to 4 ...and seem fine. Always grumpy......
He was always in trouble in school, although he was one of the smartest kids in class. I spent the last 3 years fighting to get him up and out the door.

It wasn't until I got my dx that a light bulb went off and I truly "saw" him.
He is just like mom, rapid cycler all the way. When he had his Er visit for cutting himself, I watched him cycle several times over the long night we were there. He has always been destructive, at an early age, if I sent him to his rroom..he would tear stuff off his walls, break toys...etc.
He would seem fine one minute then something petty would set him off like a rocket. I became passive aggessive with him. Never knowing what Keenan I would get that moment. So we fed off each other.

Sadly either due to an earlier onset, the raging hormones or possibly the extra testotrone....he became unable to manage. He refused to go to school, started cutting himself. Had uncontrollable rages, (not easy to handle now that he was 6'1 and you would fight him just to grab a bag of trash on the way out. He started using alcohol and got himself into legal trouble.
Sadly, I tried to save him. His refusal to take his meds made it almost impossible. And after fighting for over a month, with him locked up in an intensive treatment center pending "trial" for his newest charges, where he was on 24 hour suicide watch....I thought we made a break through.

He was released home, and was happy to hit the road to see his friends. Even medicated for a full month and 1/2...I lost him again, 2 weeks into home.
He has missed court, on a probation violation, I have filed a runaway report and I have not seen him in over 3 weeks. My point....the earlier you catch it the better. I so wish I would have known earlier. I don't blame myself anymore, heck I was not dx until last year age 36. I was just like him. The ADD first, the stimulants which worked fine for the ADD until the BP got progressively worse. .... I still play If Only a million times over in my mind.
I don't harbor the guilt anymore...but man if there is one parent I can tell to watch out for the signs and do whatever you have to become edcated, and an advocate.

If you need anything, let me know.

A great book is ..The Up's and Downs of Raising A Bipolar Child , A survival guide for parents...

I thought I knew a lot about him , and me, when I read that book it was an eye opener and I had a hard time ....reading it without crying....

I hope you get all the help with your daughter....happy to have you here.

Take care...and keep us in the loop....

Hope

neon600
08-22-07, 02:08 PM
spoke to her counselor this morning and basically came she to the conclusion that it was a dye/sugar induced incident, seems her and a friend on Monday night consumed numerous boxes of Nerds candy, so for now she doesnt want me to re-medicate her. Today she was cheerful and seemed fine, she has also slowed down some. Still has a dr's appt for early Sept, so we'll see what happens from there.

neon600
08-22-07, 06:16 PM
I notice when my daughter has had an "episode" or a reaction to food that she stimms off music (sometimes for days) after the fact, is this also a possible bipolar identifier?

Crazy~Feet
08-22-07, 06:24 PM
Music can be soothing to a lot of people with various problems of one kind or another. Can you describe a little bit better what you mean when you say "stimms"? Just to give me a handle on it so I can give a more informed reply. :)

neon600
08-22-07, 08:30 PM
well, what happens is, she will suddenly start listening to the music louder than she normally does, she will make all kinds of (pardon the expression) weird facial expressions while singing to it and she just plain doesnt sit still. she has always had sensory issues, loud sounds being one of them, but during these times after "episodes" she will turn the radio up louder, she will talk louder, its almost as though she is "searching" for the high that the food gave her, does that make sense?

(as for the louder part, I say that due to the fact that she will barely turn the radio up most times and she will watch tv with the captions instead of the sound)

neon600
08-22-07, 09:06 PM
to add to the above she is now laying in bed, rocking back and forth, back and forth, (this I havent seen before), she does however start school tomorrow and it could be nerves but just trying to give you as much info as I can.

neon600
08-22-07, 09:27 PM
as of now, she is finally settled down, very grumpy though, wanting to sleep with me, but not wanting me to "mother" her

Crazy~Feet
08-22-07, 09:31 PM
Well, I am no expert on stimming, but I do know that all children stim to one degree or another because its soothing. I mean the rocking in this case. It might just be the nerves, like you said.

Than again, has anybody ever mentioned the possibility of her having any form of autistic spectrum disorder? Stimming and rage attacks and sensory issues are often found in this spectrum, but as such it does not mean that's what's going on here.

I have no idea what you mean about a high caused by food.

neon600
08-22-07, 09:39 PM
I can see the autistic spectrum, I honestly believe thats what she has and they just havent gotten it! Mind you between here and alot of surfing the internet she has about 32 of the autistic signs! I admit that myself, but for some reason they wont (the doctors) and I think that is due to her intelligence level. As for the "high", autistic kids crave the exact foods that contribute to there issues, she had the dairy craving like you wouldnt believe, tonight she ate two sandwiches in a row (even after having a full dinner, breakfast and lunch today), and snack was a ham sandwich with mayo, as well as a peanut butter and jelly (grape jelly), so theres the gluten part. According to autism.org, they are highly allergic to these types of foods (gluten and dairy) and it contributes to the "high" they are trying to maintain.

Crazy~Feet
08-22-07, 09:47 PM
Hmmmm well, I have read a bit about autism.org, most of it written by people who have autism themselves. I don't remember anything about there being any maintainance of a high involved in it, but I will have to look that stuff up again to make sure about it, alright? And if I remember correctly, these same autistics seemed pretty annoyed at the idea of diet causing them to be neurodifferentiated. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

32 points of agreement does sound pretty compelling to me, too. Asperger's Syndrome people actually tend towards a high degree of intelligence, IMO. There are a few key differences between HFA and Asperger's though.

I keep wondering who in creation these doctors are anyway? Its annoying ME and its not even my child! You must just want to scream, if not just fall over and sob. How are you holding up?

neon600
08-22-07, 09:52 PM
Sorry but I dont know what "IMO" means or "HFA"........LOL,

and I keep wondering the same thing about these doctors, they dont have a clue, I have learned more about my daughter on here and by surfing the internet than I have from them, they are overpaid, useless idiots!!!! And I'm praying the next one is not as stupid as the last one!

unfortunately, as far as handling it goes, its called a 12 oz Busch lite!

Crazy~Feet
08-22-07, 10:03 PM
ROFL! The Busch cure huh? Its not all that uncommon, ya know. ;) Keep hanging on.

IMO means "in my opinion" and HFA means "high-functioning autism" ok? Me and my ADHD tend to have a lack of patience with typing out long phrases a little too often sometimes. :o Whoopsie!

I wonder if the internet would be able to help you find an expert in a town other than yours? Even if its a drive, it might be well worth it to finally get a decent opinion.

Geez, it makes me think how blessed I really am to be who I am, where I am, right now. My psychiatrist is an expert, but he has ADHD himself and chooses to work at clinic-level where he can help those who cannot afford high-flung doctors, but desperately need someone who knows what they are doing. He's a lifesaver!

neon600
08-22-07, 10:16 PM
I'm hanging girl, it aint easy, but I am, and Busch isnt always the answer but darn if it dont make it a little easier some nights!
I can see the HFA as well. I checked out some doctors here in this small God forsaken town but have had little luck, the dr she is going to see is recommended by her counselor as well as a friends grandmother who takes her there. So lets hope as of Sept things will improve with HIS diagnosis. Can you give me any advice on how to lead him to REALLY, REALLY test her for any of this, as I have tried desperately with the OLD doctor? My insurance stinks and wont cover the extensive blood tests (IGg or EGg) and not even sure they would cover a cat or brain scan, as I think should be done. Other than that I dont know what to ask or make them do to find out what is going on with her.

Crazy~Feet
08-22-07, 10:29 PM
I'd actually have to research that myself, Neon. I was under the impression that most of these things, when kids are involved, were diagnosed through questionnaires filled out by the parents and some decent degree of observation. Not like a 30 minute consultation, I mean actually spending time with the child and watching her interact with her surroundings.

What have the other doctors used to diagnose her so far? I hope it wasn't anything too stupid, or I am gonna get all annoyed again. It peeves me when these people don't know what they are doing and try to act like they do. :mad:

neon600
08-22-07, 10:42 PM
Well her counselor was really good, (and still is, she lets me call all the time w/o making me make an appt for my daughter and she doesnt charge me for phone consultations) she seen her for about 2 months before she even presented the ADHD questionnaires (back in 2005), which of course went to her teachers and myself, so the ADHD was definatley a factor, like I said the "rage" episodes increased closed to June (as well as the signs of puberty kicking in) which at that point I had taken her back to the counselor, hence the dairy diet. This is a small town, and alot of doctors are "old school" so its hard to find someone who really knows what they are doing, or even has a clue about alot of what is discussed on here. Her old dr agreed to the sensory issues in January and had JUST attended a sensory issue conference, but basically didnt have a clue other than the conference info he had just attended. So you can see I am at a loss. She went to AI Dupont Hosp for Children in Wilmington over a year ago and they were not only a waste of my time, but I am still trying to pay the 400.00 bill that our insurance didnt cover! Then her old dr suggested John Hopkins but found that she couldnt be seen till Feb of 2008, soooooo, two busch lites later and I'm like, what am I suppose to do here???

Crazy~Feet
08-22-07, 10:56 PM
:faint: 2008? Oh thats horrible. Might be worth it to set up that appointment though. If that's the best you can do for now, then take heart that you have done all you can and hang on like you have been.

Feel free to come here and just holler if you need to! It does sound like your docs are way behind, and that's such a shame.

I don't think that the Dupont's themselves get this kind of treatment though, now do they? Soooooooooooooooooooooo annoying! :mad:

neon600
08-22-07, 11:01 PM
Yes it is (horrible that is), and then I have to go through the long process of finding out if its covered, cuz blast it all, I am a single mom w/o child support and money is huge around here! I dont think they do either as that is why the AI Dupont hospital was created cuz according to folk lore they were inbreeding.......LOL, mind you I came from that area and that was what I always heard growing up. The search goes on, and yes, I will probably be on here once a month venting, so if you notice a pattern, bring it to my attention!!!!!!

Crazy~Feet
08-22-07, 11:18 PM
Once a month venting is probably standard procedure, and I think daily venting will probably pass too, considering that I moderate this forum and I do it all the time ;).

And I heard that story about the Duponts all the way down the line when I lived in PA. I don't thinks its common knowledge but its certainly no huge secret that the rumor is about, either.

I am going to have to write my own self a warning soon for going this far off-topic :o whoopsie!

"Crazy~Feet, you are wildly off-topic and this needs to stop at once!"

"But Crazy~Feet, it was my belief that the member would feel so much better if she got someone human to talk to, no matter how off-topic it was. My intentions were good!"

"Well, OK Crazy~Feet, but just this once!"

"Your complaint has been duly noted, Crazy~Feet, but I make no promises."

:o

neon600
08-22-07, 11:29 PM
amen, and I dont fault you for any of it! You have been a life saver tonight and that is all that matters, with no concern about how off topic we got. I cant thank you enough.

neon600
08-23-07, 08:40 PM
Just wanted to pop on and let you know that she is calmer tonight, still some grumpyness but better, tonight was alot smoother, and I am drinking just some good ole fashioned lemonade! Her first day at school seemed to go well too.

Crazy~Feet
08-23-07, 09:10 PM
Glad to hear it, Neon :) and of course we want the updates!

justhope
08-24-07, 08:56 AM
Glad it's quiet for you for now....:)

Do let us know how it goes with her.
You can always start the thread out as

"Mikes" Hard Lemonaide Night
Or Just Plain Ole Lemonaide...then we will know ...LOL ;)


Hmm an MGD sounds so good right now...too bad I quit drinking ....last year....:rolleyes:



Take care Neon!

Hope :p

neon600
08-24-07, 09:05 AM
Thanks to both of you. I'm more a beer person myself, but trying to get away from it, looks like I'm gonna need to start keeping a journal of these once a month blow ups! Need to be aware and coherent! She slept well last night, did talk in her sleep, but was up 6:03 this morning and was ok, but still irritable. Its like one minute she wants to be loved and the next she's snapping at me, and usually over stupid stuff. Hopefully the weekend will go well. Take care Hope and Crazy~Feet and thanks for the support.

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 09:07 AM
Mornin' Neon! Glad you popped by to give us the daily update. Can you stay a while? :)

neon600
08-24-07, 09:16 AM
Not long, I'm at work...LOL, but I can pop on and off to answer any questions if thats what you need.

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 09:31 AM
Well its more my concern right now what YOU need. You came here for our support :).

neon600
08-24-07, 09:41 AM
I'm cool girlfriend, you both supported me through this episode and that was enough. I bounce back pretty good, so as things settle for her they do for me. I am just at a loss during the episode cuz I dont know how to help her, she is not very loving during that time and I dont know how to make it better for her, so I have to reach and and ask someone else to help me understand whats happening with her. Both you and Hope did that. And I definately appreciate it. Me? I've always been a survivor so I'll keep hanging and most likely the next one, you'll see me on here again hollering for help! LOL

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 09:45 AM
I am absolutely certain there is a post here about how to support an adult through a cycle, might apply to children with a little adaptation...let me dig that up for you ok?

neon600
08-24-07, 09:49 AM
that would be great! thank you again!

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 09:55 AM
Wha?...

OK I posted it and must have forgotten to click "Submit" :o. I think its gonna be "one of those days" for me. LOL!


TRY THIS THREAD (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40304&highlight=friend+bipolar)

Geez, now I have to dig around make sure I didn't actually post that as a reply to another thread entirely....*slaps forehead*...:foot:

justhope
08-24-07, 09:57 AM
Neon...

Coming from another one who knows...make sure you are taking time for you.
I know it's all to important to help with her and watch her every move so to speak.(and BTW the journal thing...GREAT IDEA , highly recommend for you and doctor) ..however ...if you don't make some time for you to have "down" time and "Neon the person, not mom" time..you are going to IMPLODE on self.

I ran in circles for months..(well with him for 15years) and the last 2 months almost cost me dearly. Our therapist when he was in, the intensive treatment center told me, Hope you must find at least 30-60 per day to decompress. It' vital to you and your children, otherwise we will have to make a bed available for you.

Please remember to that even SuperHeros need a break. SuperMom's are no exception. It has taken me a month to wind down from all that mess. I am normally a healthy person, however since I refused to do what I was told ...including take my meds to sleep, I have been sick severeal times ...both Sinus infections, migraines and some stomach thing......so please take the advice I was too stubborn to....do something nice for you this weekend if you can...and everyday...take a breath....

CF is so good at finding lost things in here, if she doesn't get lost herself....:p


Hope :)

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 10:00 AM
Back in the Day...

Many, many Moons ago...(drumbeats)...

...they used to call me...

Finder Of Lost Posts! :cool:


But we were so much younger then...(cue violins)...

I told ya, "one of those days"...:o

neon600
08-24-07, 10:10 AM
Thanks so much again to both of you. I will actually get a slight break next weekend, her "grandparents" are taking her for the weekend, if it works out that they pick her up Thurs night, I will be taking Friday as vacation and of course we have Monday off so if nothing else I will get Fri, Sat and part of Sun to myself!!! If its Friday thats cool too, I'll just have time on Sat and Sun. Either way its ME time.

And thanks for the link Crazy, I will read it this afternoon when I get off work and have time to really read it and not just skim it. Have a great day both of you! Thank you for taking the time to find the info for me. :D

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 10:15 AM
Oh make sure you relax and recharge during that "me" time. That's really healthy stuff right there.

And last I checked? Digging that stuff up was my job, not a problem at all. :)

neon600
08-24-07, 10:29 AM
Oh I will, phone gets shut off, shades get pulled, door is locked and I dont go out unless I absolutley need to, we can all email each other if we need to, the grandparents know what I do when she goes......lol

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 10:31 AM
Sounds like a great plan to me...wish it was my turn!

I wonder who I can palm my kids off on this weekend? :D

neon600
08-24-07, 12:15 PM
They are wonderful people and treat her very well even though they are not actually related to us. I for one am very lucky to have them as part of our lives, and so is she. As for your weekend, sorry I cant help ya out! LOL

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 12:17 PM
:p sure sure sure...you have all the fun!

J/K really, make sure you get plenty of "me" time.

justhope
08-24-07, 12:46 PM
Well now I am JEALOUS!!!

Waah I want a weekend with NO KIDS AND NO DH!!!!!

Perhaps we can all hook up...my house work is almost completed. I have marked on the calendar, my entire house is completely cleaned and organized ...(cept my room :faint: ) all at the same time!!!!!

neon600
08-24-07, 12:50 PM
sorry Hope and Crazy, guess I'm the lucky one in this situation. But I am soooo looking forward to it!

Crazy~Feet
08-24-07, 12:55 PM
Enjoy it, your deserve it. It could't have been easy to come here and ask for advice and then absorb all this information. Plus all the other stuff, single parenthood, etc. Just be kind to yourself!

neon600
08-24-07, 01:23 PM
thank you, I will!

tammieb26
09-26-07, 11:09 AM
I have a 7 yr old boy who was just put on 5 different meds for ADHD, severe depression with rage. My ex was bi polar, my sister is bi polar, I was diagnosed with bi polar(but I was in a battered women's shelter) my oldest had bi polar and my middle son is PTSD. I am really concerned about my youngest. He will Rage and rage for about 5 to 10 mins. The he will come down and be so sorry for what he did. Alot of the time he is so loving. He hugs and kisses everyone and tries to please people but then it is like a light switch. Off it goes and he is out of control. He was just put on ablilify, risperdal, seroquel, focalin, and cojenten. He had to be hospitalized for 13 days to try and get him under controll. Does anyone have any advice? I am so worried about the effects of all the psychotropic drugs he is on. Please give me some advice. I am at my wits end.

justhope
09-26-07, 12:34 PM
Welcome Tammie....


Was he put on all of these drugs in the hospital? Or by his regular doc?
With your family history...which kinda sounds like mine....it's quite possible...
Have they diagnosed him with Early Onset BP? You said 6 ADD meds, but Seroquel is BP med? Risperdal is used for both ADD & BP...(I take Risperdal and my BP son takes Seroquel?) I am not a doc but I am a little concerned about the need for both of those together? I am not familiar with cojenten at all?

And if they dx him with BP when? If it was not too long ago? I would question why he was not let to stablize out on the BP meds first, then attempt to add in the stimulants. I had to do this..my son had to do this..and there are quite a few folks here who can't take the stims at all because it causes mania?

Do you have a doctor who is specialized in BP and the co-morbids that often go with them? That is an awful lot of meds?




Here are a few sites I have used. The more you become educated and take charge of the advocacy for your son....the better. That is what helped me survive all the horrors of having a child with BP....
I like all of these sites for various reasons...that is why I am giving them all to you.

The last one is the PDR for med research.

www.bpkids.org (http://www.bpkids.org/)
www.psycheducation.org (http://www.psycheducation.org/)
www.nimh.nih.gov (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/)
www.nami.org (http://www.nami.org/)
www.dbsalliance.org (http://www.dbsalliance.org/)
bipolar.about.com (http://bipolar.about.com/b/a/027656.htm?terms=the+prayer+diet)

www.pdrhealth.com (http://www.pdrhealth.com/)


Sorry I am asking questions..however I know you are upset and at your wit's end, but it will help us get some more specifics to see where we can target the help you need? I am sure this is triggering some issues wiht your own BP? Are you on medications yourself? CF and I both have BP/ADD kids...well my oldest has ODD too..and my youngest both have ADD/ADHD...so it's tough....we are here ...but do me one little favor....breathe.....okay?

Crazy~Feet
09-26-07, 12:34 PM
Tammie, if you have read the rest of this thread, I would bet you have an idea what I am going to say next. Bipolar is a heritable disorder and yes, it does occur in children. Do you have a doctor for this child who understands pedicatric bipolar disorder?

He is on several atypical APs which is no doubt why he is RXed the Cogentin. Has anybody mentioned a mood stabilizer for this child yet?

tammieb26
09-27-07, 08:21 AM
First I had him on Risperdal. This was to controll the agitation. Then he started getting very upset with himself and started hitting himself alot, so they put him on Celexa. He was on this for a while. They told me that because of his age they can't say he is bi polar. I think he is. I also know that he is ADHD with aggressive behavior. I have been through testings and dr's trying to get the help he needs. The hospital put him on Abilify and cojenten. I went to a psychiatrist and she crashed him. Risperdal and Seroquel are in the same class. But .5 mg of Risperdal is equal to 50 mg of Seroquel. The psychiatrist took him off of 3 mg of Risperdal and put him on 50 mg of Seroquel. I used the way she told me to take out the Risperdal and he crashed. I kept calling and telling her something wasn't right but she wouldn't do anything. So, after a violent day in School (hitting teachers, principals and staff) I got home and he was going after my older two. It took all 3 of us to get him in the car and he was beating us up on the way to the hospital. It was awful. They tell me that they are ruling out bi polar, but, I am sure that he is Maniac. I see it in him. One minute he is so lovable then next he looks like the devil. I know bi polar is hereditary and I also know that the mother passes it to sons and father passes to daughters. I have been trying really hard to get their father to go for testing and treatment but he is in denial. He would rather self medicate. Cojenten is used to stop the side effects of the pschotropic drugs. I am working with a new dr and I think she will listen. I find that is the hardest thing about dr's they act like I don't know my kid. I know what triggers it and I know what to do when he is like that. But there are some days that I can't calm him down no matter what I do. Now he is so ticked at me that when he is at school he is back to being the awesome lovable kid I know, but at home he is so hatefull. I know it is because I took him to the hospital but I was only doing what he trully needed. I just can't get him to understand that.

I thought that the Seroquel was a mood stabilzer? My oldest is ODD and she is on Seroquel. I am so tired of telling dr's what the problem is and I don't have a clue on what meds he should be on. He was diagnosed with ADHD w/aggressive behavior when he was 5 but they said they couldn't put him on a ADHD med until he was 7. That's when he was put on the Focalin XR. I am sorry if I am rambling, I am trying to give you all the details I can right now. I really don't want him on Risperdal. I have read horrible things about the side effects. We go to the dr's on 10/02 and I am hoping that maybe she can do something about all the drugs he is on now.

justhope
09-28-07, 12:49 AM
Tammie....

Listen...I totally get where are you are coming from. Really I do.
And I am not going to lie...it's one of the hardest things to go through...and it doesn't get any easier for awhile.

Here is the link for the Seroquel.
http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/seroquel.pdf

It is the same as the Risperdal. So if the Cojenten...is to remove the pschotropic drugs from his system. It's gonna remove the effects of both the Risperdal and the Seroquel? Often times docs prescribe both the Risperdal class drugs wiht the mood stablizers. They seem to work well hand in hand. For me it was the combo of Lamictal & Risperdal. The dosage of the Risperdal is not the same as is prescribed for the cessation of phychotic episodes or rather truly phychotic patients.

It's a small dose, as you said. Mine is 1 mg. And for my son who had more mania and aggitation...the Seroquel was suggested since it really gears up on the anxiety, aggitation and lack of sleep that comes from the mania, and the explosive anger from depression. I don't care for it because it's so sedating for me, and I don't have as much of the mania ..more the depression?

It's so hard with kids. They are just realizing that kids very young have it. Early Onset is still in the dark ages ....not something you want to hear.
And the hard truth is, and I hear you, that there is nothing good about any of the drugs you or your child will take for BP. There are horrible symptoms that can happen with them ALL. I understand not wanting your child to have one of these things happen. However, living with a child that extreme, gives you little option about meds. The alternative is really not an option. Because untreated you know he will be doomed to a life of misery. And it progresses quickly and only gets worse. Then he will get older, face many more hospital visits, possible legal and self medicating issues, cutting, high risk behaviors, suicidal tendiencies and possibly suicide itself.

My personal feelings are, I am taking my chances, with these meds, to have "quality of life" rather than quantity. And after years of watching my son struggle, I made the same choices with him, and he can make them on his own when he is old enough. I would rather shave off 15 years of my life being as normal and functioning as possible, than not. Another side of the coin is the fact a simple antibiotic for an ear infection can cause dangerous side-effects as well. I almost died from taking one pill that I had taken a 100 times before? I am not saying you shouldn't be careful, and aware, or worried ....and that you aren't. I am just giving you my perspective.


Here are some really good books that helped me survive..by education, and knowing I was not the only parent who had what seemed like Damion from teh Omen....

The Up's and Downs of Raising a Bipolar Child (A Survival Guide for Parents )

Straight Talk about Psychiatric Medications for Kids (revised version by Timothy E. Wilens)

The Life of a Bipolar Child (What Every Parent and Professional Needs To Know) this book talks a lot about the explosive issues you are dealing with.

I know you will probably get sick of hearing it. However educating yourself, even if you have it yourself is how you will get through this.
You must become the biggest advocate for your son.
There is no one better equipped to get your doctors in line, schools, the public and god for bid the juvenile system, his friends, family, and society as a whole, than you.

You have to be able to tell them this is what I want. Based on your own research, and the 'knowing" of your own child's personality, needs, and daily routines, triggers etc. And you might have to do it a million times, the key is to never give up hope or your tenacity. I know you are tired already.

I know what it's like to be BP as well. However, I didn't know I was BP when I was a kid. I don't know how help him by looking back and fitting all the pieces in from my now balanced perspective?.

I spent months educating myself about my own, as an adult. However it was a whole new thing when my son got his diagnoses. I had to do it all over again. It's different for them, not only because you add in the mix of schools, friends, family, the wonderful world of hormones when that happens, but also the fact that again, the world of early onset BP is still "finding itself ' in the medical community.

I simply put my hyperfocusing spells of hypomania...little as they were, to very good use. I ate up everything possible about what was going on in the medical communities, research...the schools, legal system..etc. And I was like a Pitt Bull with every person who had a hand in my son's future.

If you read my stories (links below) you will see some of the worst case sceniero's that can come from years of not being diagnosed, medicated and a child and now a teenage boy. You have the advantage I didn't, he is still young.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38076
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39526
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41129


I know you are frustrated. I am sure you probably are feeling guilty too, because you passed it on. Getting stuck in all of that mess will only break you down. Use the anger and the negative emotions to focus on what you can do to make it better for you, him and everyone who loves or deals with him. That is how you survive it. Otherwise it will eat you alive. Then you will be in the danger zone, and be worthless to him. You can only do the best you can. YOu are human. You can't do it all and you can't do it RIGHT NOW, and that crappy reality that is your life right now.

Now I know the hyperfocus is on your son, as is only expected from mom.
However, you are BP yourself, my next question is , are You medicated?

Anything I can do Tammie , I will. We are here to support you, hold your hand, listen to the mad ramblings cause we do it too, and to kick you off the pot if that is what you need. And I don't mean to sound that way. But well if you are BP then you know how we can be. We get stuck and need someone to shove us. Otherwise we will bury ourselves and if you do that too long, you might never come back...to living again. So we are tough here, but we ARE HERE. There are bonds here, built in a short time, and we don't take lightly anyone who mistreats us, or those who quickly become family here. But we are pretty tough on each other here when needed. So understand sometimes, we fuss, cause we care. But since we are BP's , been there and done it, we are almost always never far from this section.

Let me know...okay?

tammieb26
09-28-07, 08:34 AM
Thanks for the advice. I trully appreciate it. I am not medicated for bp at this time. I do however take topamax for migraines. Topamax is for seizures and migraines, and I seem to not have as many bp episodes when I am on it. I find that when my life is calm is when I have my bp episodes. If my life is choatic, I am ok. I also had a hysterectomy when I was 27 and I am not on any horomone replacements due to cancer risks, so sometimes I think my moods are based on lack of estrogen. My son seems to be doing well with these meds. I know that he needs them. I just worry that he will end up brain damaged or something from the drugs. I know it sounds stupid but he is so small and is still growing I dont want him stinted or anything.

justhope
09-28-07, 10:22 AM
You are welcome. That is what we are here for, Tammie. (btw I sent you a PM (private message) can you read that and get back to me , please)


And if you are functioning and those meds, etc are working and you are good....that is what matters.

And I am glad he is doing better. And it's NOT stupid to be concerned about the horror stories you hear or read on the insert of the bottles, for ALL medications our kids take....That is after all our job.

My son was on stimulants since he was 6 and then started BP meds in March (although he is not med compliant which is why his life is crap now and he has been a runaway since July) .....and I can assure you he is not brain damaged he is still very bright, intelligent and creative despite his illness...He will be 16 in Nov..and he is already 6'1. No growth issues with him. Hope that helps....some.

Hope