Has any one experimented with high doses of stimulants such as ephedrine/pseudoephedrine in combination with beta blockers? The logic being ephedrine/pseudoephedrine
are not controlled substances in most states but since they have poor CNS to SNS selectivity a beta blocker would be used to reduce the SNS side effects.

Oh no another thread and more tumbleweeds flying by.

I tried 20 mg propranolol and 25 mg ephedrine. Some what positive results.

Has any one experimented with high doses of stimulants such as ephedrine/pseudoephedrine in combination with beta blockers? I have never experimented with those stimulants in an attempt to treat my ADHD symptoms before, and I have never taken any beta blockers.





The logic being ephedrine/pseudoephedrine
are not controlled substances in most states but since they have poor CNS to SNS selectivity a beta blocker would be used to reduce the SNS side effects. Sounds like something that I would never want to try if for no other reason than due to the unknown risk associated with taking that combination of drugs. However, I feel strongly that a person should take what they think is best for them (within the bounds of the law of course), and under the approval of their Dr. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you, or anyone else considering taking these drugs in an effort to treat their ADHD to please discuss this with your Dr first.

Here's a link to similar question that was asked to a Dr concerning the use of stimulants like the ones you mentioned as a viable alternative to Adderall. I am not trying to say that this is an answer to your question concerning the combination of drugs you suggested, however what I am trying to say is that this is a response from a Dr to a similar question concerning the safety/effectiveness of the stimulants you mentioned.

http://www.wwu.edu/chw/ask_the_doc/post/1-1000/0086.html

Oh no another thread and more tumbleweeds flying by.
Don't take it personally if/when a thread does not get a response immediately. For starters, most of the members here are pretty busy folks who have a lot going on in their lives.

I should probably do a little research. :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12757963&dopt=AbstractPlus

The discriminative stimulus effects of a small dose of (-)-ephedrine (1.25 mg/kg) were enhanced by the alpha(2)-adrenoceptor antagonist idazoxan and to a lesser extent by the beta-adrenoceptor antagonist (-)-propranolol



These results suggest that D(1)-, D(2)-like, and alpha(1)-adrenergic receptors mediate the discriminative stimulus effects of (-)-ephedrine. Substitution of desipramine for (-)-ephedrine and not for some other stimulants suggests that NE transmission is a prominent feature of the (-)-ephedrine discriminative stimulus, and that NE underlies therapeutic and abuse-related effects of (-)-ephedrine that diverge from those of other stimulants.

This next abstract seems to have a different conclusion(dopamine rather than NE primary stimulus action?).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12622338&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

This study assessed the discriminative stimulus effects of (+/-)-ephedrine and its stereoisomers in pigeons discriminating 1.0 mg/kg of amphetamine from saline. Amphetamine, (+/-)-, (-)-, and (+)-ephedrine, and cocaine occasioned greater than 80% drug-key responding with the following rank order of potency: amphetamine > cocaine > (-)-ephedrine > or = (+/-)-ephedrine > or = (+)-ephedrine. Neither the alpha-adrenergic antagonist, phentolamine, nor the beta-adrenergic antagonist, propranolol, antagonized the effects of amphetamine or (+/-)-ephedrine. In contrast, the dopamine receptor antagonist, haloperidol, antagonized the discriminative stimulus effects of amphetamine and (+/-)-ephedrine as well as those of (-)- and (+)-ephedrine. These results indicate that, like cocaine, (+/-)-ephedrine and its stereoisomers share discriminative stimulus effects with amphetamine. Moreover, these effects appear to be the result of increased activity in dopaminergic systems.

Does suggest there is the potential for useful CNS action in ephedrine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12376163&ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Central stimulants readily serve as training stimuli in drug discrimination studies and typically substitute for one another in tests of stimulus generalization regardless of which is used as training drug. We have previously found that, although substitution occurs between (+)amphetamine and (-)ephedrine, substitution did not occur upon administration of S(+)methamphetamine to (-)ephedrine-trained animals. In the present investigation, rats were trained to discriminate S(+)methamphetamine (1 mg/kg) from saline vehicle and tests of stimulus generalization were performed with several stimulants, including (-)ephedrine. The S(+)methamphetamine stimulus (ED(50)=0.06 mg/kg) generalized to R(-)methamphetamine (ED(50)=1.61 mg/kg), S(+)amphetamine (ED(50)=0.28 mg/kg), S(-)methcathinone (ED(50)=0.21 mg/kg), methylphenidate (ED(50)=0.28 mg/kg), cocaine (ED(50)=3.68 mg/kg) and (-)ephedrine (ED(50)=13.1 mg/kg). Hence, stimulus generalization between S(+)methamphetamine and (-)ephedrine is apparently asymmetrical. In a companion study, R(-)methamphetamine was administered to rats trained to discriminate (-)ephedrine (4 mg/kg); substitution occurred and R(-)methamphetamine (ED(50)=0.92 mg/kg) was found to be nearly equipotent with (-)ephedrine (ED(50)=0.8 mg/kg). Although the exact basis for the observed results are unclear, they are discussed in terms of the different effects of (-)ephedrine and the methamphetamine optical isomers on neurotransmitter release and reuptake.


S(+)methamphetamine(ED(50)=0.06 mg/kg)
S(+)amphetamine (ED(50)=0.28 mg/kg),
(-)ephedrine (ED(50)=13.1 mg/kg)


Hmm does that suggest 13.1 /0.06 = 218. That 1 mg of
Desoxyn is equal to about 218 mg ephedrine. That might mean insane high dose is needed. I took rarely 100 mg ephedrine at one time in college. Might explain why this would not work. :)

Does suggest there is the potential for useful CNS action in ephedrine.
In rats, or in pigeons?

I wonder if there are any studies that have been published involving human subjects?

Had a hard time sleeping after experiment one. Today I repeated
25 mg ephedrine 20 mg propranolol but I added 0.4 mg of flomax. I used flomax in the past to treat the sexual side effects of reboxetine. So seeing if it can farther reduce the SNS load of ephedrine.

I would like to repeat what I stated earlier about the importance of discussing any experimenting like this with your Dr beforehand.


I feel strongly that anyone who considers trying anything to treat their ADHD should only do so after discussing it with their Dr first.

I would like to repeat what I stated earlier about the importance of discussing any experimenting like this with your Dr beforehand.


I feel strongly that anyone who considers trying anything to treat their ADHD should only do so after discussing it with their Dr first.

I agree. Too bad my medical degree was obtained in a box of crackerjacks.

I agree. Too bad my medical degree was obtained in a box of crackerjacks.
Were you on prescription medication when you were in medical school?

Were you on prescription medication when you were in medical school?

I was joking. :)

Massive head ache 8 1/2 hours into experiment 2. Experiment 3 in doubt. :D

Are you doing this with your doctors approval theta?

Are you doing this with your doctors approval theta?

I've been to a doctor ounce in the last 10 years. I needed surgery for a severed tendon. I could not afford it so I got one stitch to close the wound and no antibiotics instead. :)

I'm sorry to hear that theta.

I feel very strongly that health = wealth.

I hope that you will eventually be able to find a Dr who might be able to help you find some healthier medication than the stimulants you are currently taking.

Could be dangerous, Theta.

http://www.erowid.org/pharms/betablockers/betablockers_interactions1.shtml

Could be dangerous, Theta.



Interesting link thanks. I had an endless headache , nausea, hyperthermia, lightheaded on standing, non-ejaculatory orgasm, etc Needless to say I'm canceling the research program. :)

Thanks for the kind words Lars.