... in ADD is supposedly impaired, why is problem solving a strength of most ADDers?

Is it?

What were the scores on your tests of Executive Function like?

Is it?

What were the scores on your tests of Executive Function like?I haven't done that stuff because I don't think I necessarily have a learning disability, plus I don't have time right now. This is in reference to a lot of conflicting information I have been reading in various research articles.

One article will say that working memory is impaired, and the inattentive ADHD types have deficits in things requiring this, such as math, reading comprehension, and problem solving.

Then I read another article that says ADDers typically are strong in math, reading comprehension, and problem solving.

Am I mixing up the characteristics of inattentive type with the hyperactive type? I was under the impression there wasn't much of a difference in characteristics/strengths.

Then I read another article that says ADDers typically are strong in math,

I suppose if you're not referring to getting the correct answer as opposed to understanding the theory...

reading comprehension,

What article was this? I don't think we're thinking about the same condition here...

and problem solving.

I guess this depends on the problem to be solved. Smart people tend to be superior at solving problems, and those with ADD are often in this category. Unique solutions may be due to looking at issues from unusual perspectives, not necessarily in accuracy or persistence in working things out (except in cases of obsession, etc.).

Am I mixing up the characteristics of inattentive type with the hyperactive type? I was under the impression there wasn't much of a difference in characteristics/strengths.

I know a mostly hyper/impulsive that is far superior than I (inattentive type) in the area of reading comprehension (and happens to love history and absorbs minor details fairly well, actually). I tend to think/process in gestalt, though...

Maybe it is because we think outside of the box and can see things that others don't.

Working Memory is a sub-part of Executive Function. EF is the Brain's Manager.

It is impaired in ADD/ADHD.

EF is needed for planning, organizing, learning from mistakes, etc: all parts of 'problem solving'.

If your EF (and its subunit, working memory) is excellent, then maybe you don't have ADD/ADHD?

re: 'good at math'

A person can be strong in math (e.g. math concepts and symbols portion of the WAIS-III test or Woodcock Johnson tests) -- but still have a Math LD or ADD/ADHD that impairs them enuf to not be able to pass math.

ADD/ADHD people can also have issues with Temporal-Sequential Ordering. That can kind of mess up learning math solutions at higher levels, etc.

re: oh, and about working memory

EF and WM also include Auditory Memory (or auditory processing, essentially). An example would be: Remembering complex multistep instructions.

Well, I know that ADD in gifted people tends to be somewhat more tricky. All through elementary and middle school, I scored 99th percentileish on reading comprehension and anything verbal. I even did this on the MCAT as well.

However, I was terrible at math. I would get the concepts of it, but usually got the answers wrong. I was in the gifted classes and stuff and started high school math in 7th grade (dunno why). I would look at an algebraic equation that was supposed to have a variable as the answer, but would actually solve it by using fractions. I would do this by understanding how the operators functioned to manipulate the variables.

Needless to say, I was actually dropped back to normal math in high school while continuing in gifted classes for science and english. Somehow, during this time, I was able to "figure out" math enough to do fairly well. While I don't completely suck at math anymore, I still do not perform as well in mathematics as in reading and verbal type tasks. (ie, my verbal SAT was 710 and math was 530). I'm not really sure how I "fixed" math; I think what really helped for me was to actually WRITE everything down instead of doing it in my head, so I will write down each and every step to solving a problem, then kind of work my way through what I wrote down. I have a very tough time doing basic math in my head.

I have always had the symptoms of ADD, but my grades weren't really that terrible. My high school GPA was not much above average (I graduated 14th in my class) most likely because I never did homework, or when I did I would forget to bring it, but still managed As and Bs on exams. I was more interested in other things.

Things improved a bit when I went to college. I actually picked up books and read them, but I was always playing "last minute catch-up" because I put things off all the time. I have pretty much no pattern in my grades across the years of college, and interestingly enough somehow did best in physics, mathematics, and chemistry, I think because of the problem solving and I found them really interesting. I've always been told I'm not "trying" and not "meeting my potential", that I could, "be doing a lot better". I also always talked during class when the teacher was teaching :D

Things improved as I got older, and none of this has been a huge issue until my second year of med school. I always had a feeling that I COULD have done or be doing much much better, that I was falling short of my abilities, but I could never figure out why.

The important lesson is to realize that not everyone with ADD has crappy grades and standardized test scores. It affects people in different ways as far as functioning, but the overall symptoms tend to be the same (hence why the DSM criteria are based on the symptoms, not any potential causes). Also, only about 30% of those with ADD have any type of learning disabilities. Things that are technically, "deficits" in those who are gift/ADD may still function at a high-enough level to not really be a deficit. After all, Mensa does have its own ADD community :D

I think that an ADDer would have more trouble solving a problem systematically. Much more trouble. But intuition, outside-the-box thinking and making very quick jumps between two seemingly unrelated ideas can make us awesome problem solvers, depending on the problem.

I figured out how to add large numbers together in my head at a young age. But it was my own way. Then when they taught a method of doing it in school, the methodology of it was a step back for me. Methodologies can be taught. ADD-thinking can't. WE RULE THE WORLD! <evil laugh>

So I keep seeing the topic of ADDers having a "unique sense of humor" come up often. I do realize I often see humor in things others usually do not, but is there some type of pattern? (or is that the pattern?)

I am assuming that being extremely sarcastic is not what they are referring to :D

Also, it's interesting to note that things seem to have gotten "worse" once I was diagnosed and the sleep apnea treated. I'm not sure that anything is really different, that maybe I am just more acutely aware of what is going on so I tend to emphasize it.

I made it through one year of med school unmedicated and untreated for both ADD and sleep apnea, so I really see no reason why I can't do it again.

HERE is another interesting question though: if it's not ADD, then what could it be?

about humor... I think it's just a form of self-medication that many ADDers develop to cope, escape, etc.

I was always the class clown. Now I'm the meeting clown.

what's wrong with humor? I mean it's one of the more positive coping skills, I was a class clown too... my working memory is usually very 'sound byte'-ish if you want to call it that, I am a moment to moment kind of guy.

well im adhd and i have learning disabilities to but add can figure out more things and faster then us adhd people

what's wrong with humor? I mean it's one of the more positive coping skills, I was a class clown too... my working memory is usually very 'sound byte'-ish if you want to call it that, I am a moment to moment kind of guy.
nothing wrong :)

I like it, it's part of what makes me a person

The thing you have to understand is that we don't REALLY have an impairment in working memory. We just appear to. It is because our minds are very lateral and fast thinking. This translates to using multiple approaches when solving a puzzle in less time than others. Sounds efficient, right? Well not always. If we are tired or our minds are occupied we can't keep up and so we continually forget our place when solving a puzzle. That is why sometimes we have troubles doing maths, reading comprehension and problem solving and other days we are good at it.

The other thing I think you should know is that internally ADHD inattentive and hyperactive is exactly the same. It is our personalities that cause us to have one, the other or a combination of both. Our fast thinking and lateral minds in inattentiveness cause daydreamining in inattentive type and hyperactitivity in the hyperactive type. My point is I don't think you have them confused, it is just that the 'impairment in working memory' isn't really what it means. The people who write this try to teach people what it LOOKS like. It looks like we have an impairment in working memory. I have written an article that covers this. http://addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44001

The other thing I think you should know is that internally ADHD inattentive and hyperactive is exactly the same.

I agree yet I also disagree. My theory based upon hundreds of descriptions and personal experience.

ADD is the same in that we can not consciously control our direction of focus or length of attention span due to a "faulty filtering valve".


With the hyperactive impulsive types our filtering valves are stuck open . We can not filter out any thing. Every sight, sound, smell, and feeling competes equally for our attention. We can not ignore unimportant stimuli to focus on the important stimuli.

Inattentive ADDer has the opposite problem their filter valve snaps shut. When they try to filter out un-necessary stimuli they end up filtering out all of the stimuli.

Combined ADDers have both problems.

Because we have either tried to process every thing at once or tuned out when the valve snapped shut we can have memory laps. Not because we are unable to remember but because we are unable to select what we pay attention to and for how long. ADDers are very dependent upon external stimuli to keep us focused which is why we require more stimuli to keep engaged thus we suck at mundane crap we consider boring.

The whole working memory thing I question myself. According to these people one has to have a good working memory to have a good long term memory and my experience doesn't gel with that theory. I may not be able to remember what I did with my cell phone five minutes ago while I recall details of a conversation that took place last year. I memorize the strangest thing instantly with little or no effort at all while being unable to recall common things like where I put my purse or car keys. My brain put more emphasis on other things besides car key placement or parking lot row numbers however if I tell myself to remember the row number can a week later.

I down loaded a match game on my computer. I noticed the more I played it the worse my time got. I found out that I was memorizing the placement of the cards but my brain was unable to separate which memory when with the current game and which went with past games. again a filtering problem I am unable to filter out the memories of past games and select the memory connected to the current one. This doesn't sound like a poor working memory to me, and I defiantly have ADHD. Sequences are a problem but then again I also have dyslexia which may contribute to sequencing difficulties.

Well, I know that ADD in gifted people tends to be somewhat more tricky. All through elementary and middle school, I scored 99th percentileish on reading comprehension and anything verbal.
I'd match that on reading/verbal. I've been considered exceedingly gifted in that area for all my life; however, I have got to ask:

How tricky does it become when said AD/HD and gifted person actually DOES have a serious LD as well? I'd say "pretty damn tricky" myself.


However, I was terrible at math. I would get the concepts of it, but usually got the answers wrong.

OK then, you do NOT have a LD. That's clear to me, anyway, not only through the giftedness you exhibit, but also by the underlined statement.


I would look at an algebraic equation that was supposed to have a variable as the answer, but would actually solve it by using fractions. I would do this by understanding how the operators functioned to manipulate the variables.

OK then,there is a big difference here. I could not solve an algebra equation in any creative manner, because the concepts elude me entirely. In fact, fractions are something that I may understand the concept of, but damn If I can use them to solve anything beyond doubling a recipe.


Somehow, during this time, I was able to "figure out" math enough to do fairly well. While I don't completely suck at math anymore, I still do not perform as well in mathematics as in reading and verbal type tasks....I'm not really sure how I "fixed" math

I have never "figured out" math. As in not at all. I do completely suck, and I have for as long as I can remember. Despite severe AD/HD (I am also wondering how severe yours is), I can clearly remember such things as being unable to tell time until I was 8 or 9 years old. I know damn well that I have never retained the times tables, and there are many other aspects surrounding math that I simply do NOT "get" no matter how many times they are explained to me. I no longer attempt them at all. When you are my age and still count on your fingers? You learn to use a calculator and skip the stress, just as my dyslexic brethren rely on spellcheck.


I have pretty much no pattern in my grades across the years of college, and interestingly enough somehow did best in physics, mathematics, and chemistry, I think because of the problem solving and I found them really interesting


I can solve all kinds of problems, except math problems. I am practically phobic about such things. I cannot see the connection, and in fact, I am sick to death of being told that such things are "interesting puzzles to solve". I can solve puzzles; I cannot understand math any more than a person with dyslexia can try harder and letters will stop transposing themselves.

Also, only about 30% of those with ADD have any type of learning disabilities. Things that are technically, "deficits" in those who are gift/ADD may still function at a high-enough level to not really be a deficit. After all, Mensa does have its own ADD community...


Certainly not in my case! I am in that so-called 30%, and am beginning to get a little annoyed by that percentage. How does anybody arrive at such a figure? Nobody ever asked me and I certainly do not offer up that information. I suspect others do not as well.

As for Mensa? I was invited to join when I was 15 or 16 and found the entrance interview to be extremely dull and boring. I'd rather hang out here any day.

re: poor in math but great in verbal skills

It sounds like you are able to verbalise the problems to help your math solving needs. High verbal reasoning abilities means that makes sense.

I find that I do that as well: the whole internal self-talk thing. It helps with self monitoring too. (A form of meta-awareness/meta-cognition that ADDers typically lack.)

BTW, DYK that a person can score really high in "Math Concepts and Symbols" but still do poorly in solving math problems? [e.g. Tests such as the WAIS (intelligence test battery) or Woodcock Johnson (academic acheivement test battery) measures this subcategory.]

My inability to pass Grade 12 Algebra/Trig, but fail Statistics [and graduate my BSc] is proof of that.

Professors continue to tell me that Stats is just "add/subtract/multiply/divide". One Prof even said "having Grade 6 math" should suffice.

Sure....

And then: I have a friend who has dyscalculia. She can pass Stats (and even graduate level Stats too), but she cannot make change.

One more thing: Someone mentioned about ADD brains being different.

I once read that brains are as individual as faces! (And that every brain is neurodevelopmentally flawed in some way. Some are just flawed in areas or ways or degrees that are more significant than others.)

Certainly not in my case! I am in that so-called 30%, and am beginning to get a little annoyed by that percentage. How does anybody arrive at such a figure? Nobody ever asked me and I certainly do not offer up that information. I suspect others do not as well.


I do not offer this information but my dyslexia is obvious to any who read my hand written stuff.

I am reasonable sure the 30% came about as a result of studies in children who are ADD who also met the criteria for a type of learning disability.




I am sick to death of being told that such things are "interesting puzzles to solve". I can solve puzzles; I cannot understand math any more than a person with dyslexia can try harder and letters will stop transposing themselves.

I feel the same way about cross word puzzles, I mean why would I need to know a four letter word for stupid when idiot will do?

re: 9, first paragraph

I think you hit the nail in the HEAD, PedalPounder!

EF (exec fx) and WM and attention all interplay.

Attention consists of that "ISIS" acronym:
Initiate
Sustain
Inhibiting
Switching

============
Executive function (“EF”)

Defined as that what you need to engage in goal-directed behavior-- open ended, novel unfamiliar tasks. Not automatic, routine tasks.

1. Regulation of mood, attention and level of arousal.

2. Task Management “I.S.I.S.”

A. Initiate: have to initiate a task with a plan.

B. Sustain: once initiate task, can you sustain it.

C. Inhibit: once initiated, can you “block out” inappropriate responses or impulses.

D. Switch: refers to mental flexibility. Once in a project, can you step back and evaluate or reflect on performance to be able to evaluate and make it better?



Weak EF

1. Students have difficulty structuring time, space and materials

2. Students have difficulty sequencing information, needed for following instructions and making a plan for executing a multi-step task.

3. Students have difficulty organizing information -- occurs at all levels, but not much demand on this in the lower grades.

4. Students have maladaptive emotional reactions to schoolwork, such as increased anxiety, reduced motivation, feeling helpless.

http://brooklinesepac.org/docs/notes/SEPAC_EF_%20Helmus_notes.html

I do pretty good at word problems. I think b/c it's reading in it. I read something written out and it's in my brain pretty well.

I cannot do jigsaw puzzles for the life of me. My 2 1/2 y.o. son had a 30 piece one and I even had a little difficulty on that. It was laughable.

May i suggest you to read my reply to this post :

http://addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=486821#post486821

It s about math but the same problem appears in many many other area of everyday life.
I have not been able to find some good enough help from medical services ( some help yes but not good enough for my kind of work ).
So i have painfully found by myself that mental calculus, chess learning and some programming activity work in synergy to strenghten my short term memory and to strengthen it very much.

Don't dream. It 's very difficult and no you won't turn in a very good chess player or a mental calculus genius.

i don't know why so many adder have working memory problems. I don't know if it s a real physical and mental problem or if our brain try to work differently from non adder brain and the society don't let us live with it.

i just try to concentrate with a working solution to be able to reduce the stress from my life.

Hope it will help some of you.