http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7090011.stm

Drugs for ADHD 'not the answer'
Treating children who have Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) with drugs is not effective in the long-term, research has shown.

A study obtained by the BBC's Panorama programme says drugs such as Ritalin and Concerta work no better than therapy after three years of treatment.
The findings by an influential US study also suggested long-term use of the drugs could stunt children's growth.
It said that the benefits of drugs had previously been exaggerated.
The Multimodal Treatment Study of Children with ADHD has been monitoring the treatment of 600 children across the US since the 1990s.
'Exaggerated impact'
Most of the estimated 500,000 children in Britain with ADHD receive no treatment at all.

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But of those that do, most - about 55,000 last year - are prescribed stimulants like Ritalin and Concerta.
The cost of these drugs to the NHS is about £28m.
In 1999, the American study concluded that after one year medication worked better than behavioural therapy for ADHD.
This finding influenced medical practice on both sides of the Atlantic, and prescription rates in the UK have since tripled.

But now after longer-term analysis, the report's co-author, Professor William Pelham of the University of Buffalo, said: "I think that we exaggerated the beneficial impact of medication in the first study.
"We had thought that children medicated longer would have better outcomes. That didn't happen to be the case.
"There's no indication that medication's better than nothing in the long run."
Prof Pelham said there were "no beneficial effects" of medication and the impact was seemingly negative instead.
"The children had a substantial decrease in their rate of growth so they weren't growing as much as other kids both in terms of their height and in terms of their weight," he said.
Aggressive behaviour
The Panorama programme features disturbing footage of a 14-year-old from Stoke-on-Trent, who has been on ADHD medication for a decade.
Craig Buxton's family kept a video diary of his behaviour and captured on camera examples of just how explosive his behaviour can be.
He has self-harmed, suffers night terrors and is aggressive - he recently assaulted three school teachers.

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His mother Sharon said things had gone from bad to worse.
"He has broke down and cried when he gets into situations," she said.
"He says: 'Why am I like this mum, I don't want to feel like this, I don't want to be like this, you know, help me'.
"And all I can do is go back to the doctors and say: 'Is there anything more you can do?'
"All they say is, well, we are doing what we can."
The National Institute for Clinical Excellence is currently revising the treatment guidelines for ADHD.
Chair of the working group Dr Tim Kendall said they were devising a strategy which was likely to involve training for parents as well as "behavioural interventions". "The important thing is that we have an approach which doesn't focus just on one type of treatment," Dr Kendall said.

Like I tell everyone who will listen, I've tried meds with little long-term success, and just this year I've completed Neurofeedback / "EEG Biofeedback" therapy.

Trust me - drop the meds, and train your brain long-term and break the dependancy of making the monthly trip to the pharmacy.

It works wonders for attention and depression issues - if you dont' believe me, just ask my wife and the improvement she's seen in me!

If the child is self-harming and harming others (explosive attacks) and has night terrors, he has way more than "JUST ADD" happening for him.

In normal IQ kids, self-harm (and/or suicidality; not always interchangeable thought) is often a sign of unresolved trauma. (But no one wants to talk about that.) ;)

I'm not surprised that stimulants given to a limbically irritable and affectively over-aroused child -- would make his behaviours worsen. Duh.

Same can happen with people who have serious agitation of other kinds too (e.g. severe anxiety; inability to self-soothe; OCD/PTSD people).

This child probably has about three (3) five to (5) different diagnoses. Maybe more. He obviously has extensive psychopathology happening. And social pathology.

It's really UNFAIR for this article to label him as merely "ADD" and imply that he is "a treatment failure".

Get real.

Like I tell everyone who will listen, I've tried meds with little long-term success, and just this year I've completed Neurofeedback / "EEG Biofeedback" therapy.

Trust me - drop the meds, and train your brain long-term and break the dependancy of making the monthly trip to the pharmacy.

It works wonders for attention and depression issues - if you dont' believe me, just ask my wife and the improvement she's seen in me!

It's heartening to hear that you've found personal success with a treatment for your ADD. However, just like meds, not every treatment works for everyone. You'll note from the countless posts on these forums that treatments can vary from herbal supplements, biofeedback, changes to diet to medications (and more).

If it works for you, that's terrific. It may not be the ideal treatment for the next person.

This "influential US study" did not in fact prove what these reporters and many others are trying to say.

I read is fairly detailed rebuttal of this take on the study, which unfortunately I can't find at the moment. However, as I recall the study was set up to support ADHD diagnosed children in three or four different treatment choices -- 1 was treatment with stimulants, one was treatment with counseling, one was treatment with stimulants and counseling, and one was the straight treatment available from the general practitioner -- that is whatever was available to the family. This was carried out in the United States.

The catch was, the funding for the study only covered the medication and counseling elements for 18 months. At the end of that time patients could continue with those therapies if they wished, but the study administrators no longer cover the cost. although those patients were still being monitored, their continuing care reverted to whatever was available through insurance plans or families ability to pay.

since so much in health care in the United States is dependent on either having good insurance or having a big bank account, it is hardly surprising that the four groups, whose results in that first 18 months were quite different from each other, would converge in the outcome once they were left to their own devices.

If I remember correctly, the therapy only group benefited roughly 38%, the drug only group benefited somewhere in the 70s percentile, the drug plus therapy group benefited somewhere in the 80s, and the general practitioner group benefited in the mid-to high 20s.

I wish I could find the link, it laid out the whole process much more clearly than I have done. I imagine queens_u girl would have a clear recollection of this.

The main question I have about articles like this is, why on earth the press seems to keep jumping in to tell people not to take those nasty drugs. I have reason to believe that if I'd been offered those nasty drugs when I was a kid, I might easily now have a doctorate, a professional career behind me, and a big fat pension. Oh, and a pony too.

Ducky

The main question I have about articles like this is, why on earth the press seems to keep jumping in to tell people not to take those nasty drugs. I believe it's the nature of drug hysteria to employ fear through the demonization of whatever drug that's chosen to be the next scapegoat. What I find ironic is how the same press will demonize drug after drug (usually unjustly so) and then turn around and welcome sponsorship from alcohol companies, and tobaco companies (who advertise outside the USA). Anyhoot, I could go on and on here, so I better stop now. :o




I have reason to believe that if I'd been offered those nasty drugs when I was a kid, I might easily now have a doctorate, a professional career behind me, and a big fat pension. Well said, I can only imagine how different things might have been if I had been diagnosed earlier than I was.

Like I tell everyone who will listen, I've tried meds with little long-term success, and just this year I've completed Neurofeedback / "EEG Biofeedback" therapy.

Trust me - drop the meds, and train your brain long-term and break the dependancy of making the monthly trip to the pharmacy.

It works wonders for attention and depression issues - if you dont' believe me, just ask my wife and the improvement she's seen in me!

It took a whole year for effect? I don't really want to take meds, so this might be the first thing I'll try. Does it help with the motivation problems, social anxiety and lack of energy too? Those have the biggest influence on my social life, which I definately need to resolve before even thinking of continuing my studies.

It took a whole year for effect?

Yeah thats 52 (weeks) x $100 = $5200. And not a chance in hell insurance covering it. My guess it has fairly low efficacy for most. Just as some will be miracle responders to fish oil most want.

Build your own EEG system:
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/

It's heartening to hear that you've found personal success with a treatment for your ADD. However, just like meds, not every treatment works for everyone. You'll note from the countless posts on these forums that treatments can vary from herbal supplements, biofeedback, changes to diet to medications (and more).

If it works for you, that's terrific. It may not be the ideal treatment for the next person.
That's the thing - the treatment protocols used on me were selected based on my individual brain patterns. If I were saying that everyone who has AD(H)D should train down the Alpha amplitude at C3 and C4, then I could see how your caution would be appropriate, since that protocol may not be for everyone.

Let me explain a little about the process and how it works, and hopefully you'll see what I'm talking about...

The process starts with visiting a Neurofeedback Provider and meeting with them to talk about some of the symptoms/problems you are experiencing, and to go over how Neurofeedback Therapy works.

From there, they have you come in and take a snapshot of the tell-tale electrical patterns of how your brain functions, (known as a QEEG or a "Brain Map"), and compare that to a database of "normal" brains based on sex/age, and see what looks different. This is done by placing 19-20 electrodes on your head and recording the electrical activity of your brain for a period of time (5-10 minutes) with your eyes open and eyes closed. Once the data is collected, either the Practicitioner will send the raw EEG data to be analyzed and compared, or they will do it in-house.

From this, the Neurofeedback Provider takes your QEEG report, and reviews it with you to see how the patterns on the QEEG could explain the symptoms/problems you experience, and come up with a training plan that prioritizes those symptoms that you feel would be of the most benefit first.

So, as you can see, the training protocols are customized to your own brain function. There isn't nearly as much of the "shot-in-the-dark" approach as you see MD's use when trying to pick a medication that may or may not work, let alone having to drop one because of side-effects and try another until you get one that you can tolerate, only to have to up the dose later or go off of it because you build up a tolerance. Neurofeedback training picks the protocols that will help adjust the abnormal patterns on your QEEG, so it is much more tailored. There still is some "try-and-see-which-protocol-will-help-most", but usually it only take a few sessions of training to decide which to stick with, not several months of adjusting to a medication and then having to go through a mini-withdrawal from it when it doesn't work.

There are a number of brain dysfunction problems that cause the constellation of symptoms that we call AD(H)D. Many of them have to do with the dysregulation of the frontal lobe, which handles the "executive functions" such as concentration, focus, memory, distractibility, impulse control, etc. Many times the training involves training on the frontal lobe itself, and some deal with other brain systems that are interfering with the frontal lobe functioning properly.

And, Neurofeedback isn't just about ADD. It's about helping with other problems such as clinical depression, anxiety, learning disorders, OCD, Autism, and a host of other issues that come from a brain that isn't working the way it was meant to. The whole thing is about finding what is not working properly, and adjusting it back to a way of functioning that doesn't cause emotional/neurological/executive distress.

The training takes anywhere from 30-40 sessions to make a change. This is because the brain is very malleable and likes to "stick" to a particular way of functioning. It's like trying to change the direction of an 8-foot ball made of memory foam rolling down a road. If you just push a little bit it will deform around your hand temporarily, but as soon as you remove your hand it will return to normal. If you push long and hard enough it will eventually start to change direction and travel a different path.

Some people start Neurofeedback and decide to stop because after 10 sessions they aren't seeing results. It usually takes until about 15-20 sessions before you start to see noticeable results, and another 10-20 sessions after that to "over train" your brain enough to lock it in. So, if you have made the decision to start Neurofeedback, you owe it to yourself to go the distance.

A session of training itself involves being hooked into a mini-EEG machine with a few electrodes placed above those places of your brain that you are training. You sit at a computer, and relax while the computer reads your EEG, and gives your brain stimulus when it meets the criteria for the training protocol. For instance, if you are trying to train down Alpha brain waves, then the computer will see how much Alpha you are producing at a site, and if it sees that the Alpha waves are lower than usual, it will send the brain a signal that lowering Alpha is good, (usually a tone or flashing/shifting images on the screen). After 6-10 minutes of the training, your brain actually learns how it can control the stimulus and spends the rest of the training trying to get more of it. There is nothing you really can do to screw up the training as long as you stay awake, relaxed, and in the chair. "Trying harder" doesn't really do anything, because the training is affecting your brain at a lower level than your behavior or "will", so the most important part is just being in the chair.

As I think I've stated before, the whole idea with Neurofeedback is not to change who you are as far as your core personality, but for me it was to help calm the noise that I had to sift through in order to function on a day-to-day basis, and help to smooth the drastic highs and lows of the emotional roller-coaster I was riding.

There is a small population of people that don't get any benefit from Neurofeedback, but I believe that is somewhere between 5-10% of the population. But, what drug out there says is has a 90-95% success rate at lowering symptoms long term?

I know that at the worst of it, I felt that nobody knew that I was going through, and there was nothing I could do to fix it and was doomed to a life of misery and eventual failure. When I started Neurofeedback I was skeptical because it was a pretty good chunk of money I was investing and no real guarantee that it would actually do anything. The more I researched and the more training I did, the more I started to understand how much these brain patterns dictate how we both function and feel emotionally. Patterns started to emerge, and I started to understand that no matter how alone we feel in our situation, many of our problems can be explained by a malfunctioning system in the brain and through Neurofeedback can help "normalize" those patterns and we can get onto living instead of just surviving.

I think everyone who has AD(H)D should at least have the QEEG done, (much cheaper than a SPECT or fMRI), get a direct look into your brain and see what might be causing the problems, and decide from there if Neurofeedback Therapy is for them.

As I stated in another post, as soon as my kids hit 7-8, I'm dropping the money and have them go through the training. It's a piece of money, but if there is anything I can do to prevent them having to grow up fighting the battles I did just to barely function, it's worth it.

...and just this year I've completed Neurofeedback / "EEG Biofeedback" therapy...
It took a whole year for effect?...
Yeah thats 52 (weeks) x $100 = $5200. And not a chance in hell insurance covering it. My guess it has fairly low efficacy for most. Just as some will be miracle responders to fish oil most want...
First off, I should have said "during this past year". I actually started in May, and was doing 2 or 3 session a week until I hit the 35 mark. So, no you don't have to go for every week for a year, just have to hit the 30-40 mark like I said in my last post.

And, no, this isn't any "Fish Oil" crap. This is real people making real improvements. You can buy the equiptment and under the supervision of a Clinicial do the training at home for only the cost of the EEG equiptment, software, and supplies. (I actually was doing quite a bit of training at home until the very old device I got off of eBay broke).

If you want more info, check out:
http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/10310147.html

http://www.mensvogue.com/health/articles/2006/12/18/mindroom

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8125-2379616,00.html

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19025484.700-brain-training-can-change-autistic-behaviour.html

http://www.autism.net.au/Downloads/Clinic%20reports%20dramatic%20results%20treating%2 0autism,%20ADD%20without%20drugs.pdf

Other News Stories: http://www.eeginfo.com/archive.html

... Does it help with the motivation problems, social anxiety and lack of energy too? Those have the biggest influence on my social life, which I definately need to resolve before even thinking of continuing my studies.
I can honesly say that I feel much more at ease in crowds of random people. Given, I'm no social butterfly, but I feel less out of touch and less like I'm missing something that everyone else gets. I'm still a bit shy and on the quiet side, but I think that just has to do with my personality other than ADD. I've only been through the training for less than a year, so I'm still re-learning a lot of the rules that I never were aware of before, and really trying to change my behavior to be a better husband/father/employee/friend/etc.

It's been very interesting to begin to see the differentiation between what is ADD, and what is my natuaral personality. I'm starting to get a feeling that things that I just though were set in stone are actually changeable, I just need to know what tools will work and which ones will just frustrate me because they don't take care of the root cause.

And, no, this isn't any "Fish Oil" crap.

There are more published controlled peer reviewed studies suggesting fish oil
has some utility in treating ADHD than neurofeedback . Last time I checked several months ago there had never been a controlled study of neurofeedback
for ADHD.

I've found krill oil to be so much more effective than fish oil, and I took fish oil for several years. I wish I had known about the benefits of krill oil back then.

I would love to hear more about krill oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krill_oil) perhaps on another thread or in PM.


Let me explain a little about the process and how it works, and hopefully you'll see what I'm talking about...


On mt medications I had a hard time reading through your post now the late great million dollar question is exactly which army is going to hold me down so I can sit still long enough to do biofeedback? I am hyperactive and before I was on medication sitting still for longer than 30 seconds was un-heard of -


I have been on medication for over a decade now and they still keep me focused long enough to read your post - so some thing in those nasty medication must be working because when I am un-medicated I am unable to sit long enough to log-in never mind read post - biofeedback is more than likely out of the question - by the way fish oils do not help my ADD but they do help other symptoms like PMS - so just because one person doesn't find a treatment useful doesn't mean the treatment isn't useful to another person. We are all different as is our individual expression of ADD - I share my personal experiences and documentation sources and accept the fact that I am not the other person so I really do not know their body nearly as well as they do - I am not telling you to drop your approach because mine is the only useful approach and you couldn't possible be benefiting from your treatment plan because I didn't - honestly I would very much appreciate the same courtesy in return - I am grown although new information is always welcome but in this case it's usefulness is diluted by the medication bashing.{IMHO} I truly believe if some thing so soo much better than any other treatment then bashing every thing else is really un-necessary for the product shall sale itself no matter what else is available.

There are more published controlled peer reviewed studies suggesting fish oil
has some utility in treating ADHD than neurofeedback . Last time I checked several months ago there had never been a controlled study of neurofeedback for ADHD.
My Dear Sir,

What would you like me to do with my newly found information that led to a change in my life that no other form of treatment seems to have made, and served my wife as well? Shall I hide it from the world, and selfishly keep it to myself? Would you have me doubt the effect and blessing this has been to me and my family?

If you are satisfied with your current treatment protocol, then by all means please continue to benefit from them. If you are interested in my experience, and are open to the idea that the pharmicutical and health insurance industries may not have the whole picture or our long-term mental and physical health as their highest concern and there may be a highly effective treatment that is being proven over and over on a daily basis by professionals across the USA, Canada, Europe, and other parts of the world, then feel free to ask any questions or share any insights you may have for the betterment of all of us on this forum.

If on the other hand, all you have to offer is doubt and cynicism, then you are free to offer that as well. But, I know that there are countless suffering souls just looking for some much needed relief from the stress they experience daily from both internal and external forces, and I just pray that they are able to read my account and have hope that in the face of all the medication failures and countless less-than-successful treatment attempts that there is a way to reduce symptoms and help gain control of the torment within.

I just hope that your words do not keep them from the blessings this treatment has to offer to themselves and their families, or reduces the amount of time they could spend leading much more "normal" lives.

No, there are no double-blind "Gold Standard" tests out there, but from my experience with dealing with my wife's Lyme Disease and the battle we have had to wage against the medical community itself, I've learned it doesn't matter what you prove or publish. Even if it makes it past the Medical Journal publishing Watchdogs, there is very little assurance that anything that doesn't make the drug/insurance companies more money will get past the corruption in the FDA, the CDC, the AMA, or any other bureau that finds itself steeped in hidden conflict-of-interest or seeking only their career and wealth.

The evidence will come, I'm sure of it, but I'm glad I didn't wait around for the medical community to catch up like back when every Doctor was convinced that Leeches would cure everything, (they don't call it "Practicing Medicine" for nothing...). I didn't wait, my wife didn't wait to treat the neurological effects of Lyme Disease, and I'm only waiting for my children to go through treatment until they are old enough to sit still long enough for the treatment to be effective.

Have a good night, Sir, and God bless.

Meds for ADD aren't for everyone. A lot of people just think they can put their ADD child on meds and everything will be better...it's just not that simple.

Type of medication, dose and individual circumstances all have to be taken into account and adjusted carefully. Everyone needs to remember that meds aren't a magic bullet and don't work in all cases.

...On mt medications I had a hard time reading through your post now the late great million dollar question is exactly which army is going to hold me down so I can sit still long enough to do biofeedback? I am hyperactive and before I was on medication sitting still for longer than 30 seconds was un-heard of -

I have been on medication for over a decade now and they still keep me focused long enough to read your post - so some thing in those nasty medication must be working because when I am un-medicated I am unable to sit long enough to log-in never mind read post - biofeedback is more than likely out of the question - ...
Actually, I believe that Neurofeedback can be accomplished while still taking your medication, it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's probably preferred if someone continue their medications during treatment if they have issues staying still so the electrical signals caused by body movement don't interfere with the brain's own electrical signals.
... I am not telling you to drop your approach because mine is the only useful approach and you couldn't possible be benefiting from your treatment plan because I didn't - honestly I would very much appreciate the same courtesy in return - I am grown although new information is always welcome but in this case it's usefulness is diluted by the medication bashing...
I apoligize for the "Medication Bashing". I never did like the idea of being dependant on a external substance to be "normal", and never did get any lasting effect from anything I have tried that didn't have side effects that made me less able to fulfill my duties and responsiblities. I guess I need to preface it more as a matter of opinion rather than a "Bashing" tone of voice. I know that medications are absolutly necessary in many circumstances, and I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from starting the appropriate course of medication, I just want to encourage them to use this tool to both take a look "under the hood" with a QEEG and benefit from the ability to apply neuro science and technology to be able to adjust the brain system that are largely responsible for the unwanted symptoms and emotional distress most of us on this forums have experienced.
...{IMHO} I truly believe if some thing so soo much better than any other treatment then bashing every thing else is really un-necessary for the product shall sale itself no matter what else is available.
Again, I apoligize for my inappropriate tone.

I wish the part of the "selling itself" were true across the US. I know that there is great resistance to anything that is not mainstream, and I know the cost is a large hinderance because of lack of insurance coverage. I know that there are many truly inspired ideas and treatments that are left out in the cold because they don't follow the popular notion that the current extent of Science is able to know all and see all. I know there is corruption in our Healthcare system here in the US, and that big business has stifled many opportunities for the persuit of our health.

I'm just glad I was blessed with the opportunity to explore this treatment and benefit from it. I'm greatful for the knowledge I have gained from researching for myself before beginning this treatment, and am trying to raise awareness as a treatment based in neuroscience and with a pretty good track record based on those who have completed the training.

It takes a leap of faith, but all the really good stuff in this world does too.

If you are interested in my experience, and are open to the idea that the pharmicutical and health insurance industries may not have the whole picture or our long-term mental and physical health as their highest concern

I would love to hear anecdotal reports of success with neurofeedback and have no doubt they exist and are often the truth. There are reports on this forum of
people who said it was useless to. The science supporting it is limited. "Openness" is a two way street. I know drugs are riddled with problems and its a matter of does the productivity enhancement justify their problems. You need
the same openness to accept the reality that neurofeedback is not and FDA
approve treatment for ADHD and you in fact have no way to say it is even
effective in 1% users and with long term benefits post treatment.

Everyone needs to remember that meds aren't a magic bullet and don't work in all cases.


ozchris if you find a magic bullet please PM me first - my point is nothing is a a cure all - weather one chooses medication, omega-3, biofeedback or the Doré program all take commitment and effort - so while we are acknowledging medication are far from a cure all I believe it to be of great benefit to mention the fact that this more than likely applies to any and all ADD treatments.



Even if it makes it past the Medical Journal publishing Watchdogs, there is very little assurance that anything that doesn't make the drug/insurance companies more money will get past the corruption in the FDA, the CDC, the AMA, or any other bureau that finds itself steeped in hidden conflict-of-interest or seeking only their career and wealth.


Please given me a break here okay - the conspiracy theory is a load of dung - as in did you know that Ritalin isn't even in the top ten most popular medications sold by Novartis Pharmaceuticals?

check it out (http://www.novartis.com/products/pharmaceuticals.shtml) straight from the horses mouth. If you plan to discuss medication manufacturing conspiracy theories you may want to begin a new thread as I can assure you doing so in this one shall throw the entire discussion off topic - oh please do be prepared to back up all claims - I have debated this subject on multiple occasions - my point of view has been well challenged and is refined and updated frequently -

My Pet peeve - unprovable medication scare tactics and conspiracy theories so pretty pretty please can we go back to biofeedback while I remain medicated?

I would love to hear anecdotal reports of success with neurofeedback and have no doubt they exist and are often the truth. There are reports on this forum of
people who said it was useless to. The science supporting it is limited. "Openness" is a two way street. I know drugs are riddled with problems and it a matter of does the productivity enhancement justify their problems. You need
the same openness to accept the reality that neurofeedback is not and FDA
approve treatment for ADHD and you in fact have no way to say it is even
effective in 1% users and with long term benefits post treatment.
I can not prove anything. I am not qualified. I am simply expressing my experience and opinion, and trying to convey the message that everyone who has ADHD doesn't have to buy into the "Magic Kool-Aid" of stimulant medications.

Neurofeedback isn't FDA approved, but neither are other alternative treatments or suppliments that seem to offer relief from symptoms.

I guess the big thing that sold me on Neurofeedback was that it wasn't just symptom management, but got down to real issue with the way my brain (dys)functions, and offered a way to change it long term.

I'm a Software Engineer by trade, and when something in production is broken and consistently crashes, I'm much more of the mind-set to figure out what is causing the problem and fix the root cause so it doesn't keep happening. Sometimes to do this, I have to take a similar system that isn't having the problem, compare the two, and configure the unstable system to behave like the stable one.

This is exactly what QEEG-Based Neurotherapy does. I know there is a problem in my brain, I had someone look at the "configuration" of my brain activity, and compared it to a known benchmark of brains with much less problems. Once we knew what was different, we were able to coax the brain systems back to closer-to-normal patterns, and when the brain systems change, you do too.

So yes, I guess I am a bit biased in that the theory and principles used in Neurotherapy are very closed to the way I go about fixing things, but I guess it just baffles me that someone wouldn't want to take a peek at what was going on with their brain in terms of statistically compared electrical activity, let alone be given the opportunity to alter it favorably.

I don't doubt that medication serves countless people, and blesses their lives in uninaginable ways, but there are those who thorugh no fault of their own do not find relief in pharmacology, and until I found this treatment I was amoung them.

I don't seek to say that this will work for all and make meds obsolete, only that I see great value in a highly customized tool in the arsenal of those who battle with it from day to day.

I may come across strongly to point out the "evils" of medications, but if you look around the culture of ADD treatment in the US, I think it puts a little too much emphasis on drugs and I do find myself trying to convey that drugs or nutritional suppliements aren't the only way.

I also didn't see much in the way of experience or discussion on Neurofeedback, so I guess I am spending a little too much time on my "Soapbox" to try to get the word out, but I think it's worth it to raise awareness.

If biofeedback can be used with medication then it is an option for me. . . . I do believe it benefits anxiety, OCD, depression, PTSD based upon several research articles I have read this abstract (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7RM0-4FK168C-71&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3124b0a0ed6dcb30f987a4cb0d7b6d91) being an example.


I agree that many with ADD have anxiety issues and I can see where biofeedback may be a good complimentary treatment in those like me who have a hyper component - as much of our energy can actually be nervous energy -


Thank you for being open and honest - I do not wish to begrudge any one their point of view nor should your experience be stifled simply because it is not the one I am using - after all the more options we have available to better our chances of finding the right treatment plan combo . . . .I simply have a problem with statements that bash medications in what appears to be an effort to promote an alternative - it always strikes me as manipulative mud slinging. I do so much better when one shares their information along with their experiences in a non-bias manner -

Thank you for all the time and effort you put forth in this discussion - information about possible treatments is always a welcome addition. . . as many who do not respond to medications that 20% may find your information to be just what they need to address their struggles - and those who do not benefit from medication deserve all the helpful information they can get their hands on - your assistence in clearing up this misunderstanding is much appreciated.

I'm a Software Engineer by trade

Thats great you could help with development of some of the free open source
EEG programs:

http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/sw/

If biofeedback can be used with medication then it is an option for me. . . . I do believe it benefits anxiety, OCD, depression, PTSD based upon several research articles I have read this abstract (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7RM0-4FK168C-71&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3124b0a0ed6dcb30f987a4cb0d7b6d91) being an example...
If you want some really heavy hitting stuff, check out: http://www.eeginfo.com/research/adhd_main.html

Thats great you could help with development of some of the free open source
EEG programs:
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/sw/
(Did I mention the part about being a caregiver for a wife and two children with Chronic Lyme Disease? I don't really have a lot of time for side projects aside from working and taking care of them...)

I have always found meditation to be beneficial in helping me relax and be able to control my direction of focus. . . I see biofeedback as being "kin" to meditation and it would more than likely assist me in my efforts as I would actually be able to get an objective gage as to my effectiveness - insurance companies are always going to look for ways to not cover some thing for what I consider obvious reasons This makes cost a formidable barrier for many individuals - on this point I agree.


Thank you for the links to studies. . . .

I guess for me the really nice part was seeing the results of the QEEG test and seeing in terms of hard statistical data that something was really off-kilter, and it wasn't just me being lazy or not able to "will" myself to pay attention. That was very freeing, and I could get on to dealing with the attention/memory/sleep/focus difficulties as a dysfunctional brain rather than a moral judgement of myself.

So much of the AD(H)D diagnosis is subjective and based on others views of your performance and how they feel about your behavior. The QEEG is much more objective, and displays patterns that hint at what systems are not working the way they are supposed to.

It's no longer about people thinking you're just no good or not trying hard enough, it has to do with hard facts about the way things are working, (and the realization that those observing you would be in the same position if their brains worked the same way yours does). That right there was eaily worth the $400 for the QEEG.

And that's great, and biofeedback is something that should be used more as a whole, but it's a pretty big leap from that to the BBC's bit about the study indicating "drugs not the answer" when the results have been contradicted by numerous other studies and there are likely political biases.

The fact is, biofeedback is not available in many places now, and will not work for everyone (nor will medication). Or perhaps it may only be partially effective depending on the causes underlying that individual's ADD symptoms, and a reduced dosage of medication may still be required. The plural of anecdote is not data, and you as someone who has studied science should recognize that.

It simply comes down to this as the point of the thread: do you as an individual have the right to make choices in your life and find the treatment that works best for you, or should your free will and choice be subjugated to others' irrational fear in ways that harm you and do not benefit them?

And what if the study the BBC cites had concluded drugs were effective, and EEG was not, and therefore should be banned as a scam? What would your reaction be then? I doubt very much you would agree with the fascist ideology suggested in the intent underlying the study and how it is being used in the media and politically that runs contradictory to not only a larger body of scientific data, but your own personal experience.

That is not compassion, and that betrays the intent of the field of medicine.

So much of the AD(H)D diagnosis is subjective and based on others views of your performance and how they feel about your behavior. The QEEG is much more objective, and displays patterns that hint at what systems are not working the way they are supposed to.
I beg to differ a bit.
AFAIK, it is still not established that the QEEG does indeed offer a better diagnostic tool than the good ol' history taken by a professional that is knowledgeable about ADD. It may offer additional information, but the danger with these technologies is that once the investment is made, it becomes very tempting to drop the time-consuming oral evaluation and just hook someone up to the QEEG machine (or SPECT scan, or what have you) .. much faster, much cheaper. Hey, we've got to earn our investment back.
But still not proven to be better, or even as good as.

I think that in people with ADD there is so much variability that the picture is not that simple .. it is not like you x-ray a broken bone .. see? It's broken! Right there!
Of course, the readout of the QEEG machine is an objective fact. But also in this case, there is the subjectivity of the person interpreting these facts and how that contributes to a diagnosis - the tool does not eliminate that. Far from that - it may even introduce new subjective error patterns.

A good practitioner should be well aware of the danger of being subjective in an oral evaluation, and the whole diagnostic protocol is targeted to eliminate that as much as possible, as in every scientific protocol.

Having said that, I do agree that the QEEG is an interesting development.

I beg to differ a bit.
AFAIK, it is still not established that the QEEG does indeed offer a better diagnostic tool than the good ol' history taken by a professional that is knowledgeable about ADD. It may offer additional information, but the danger with these technologies is that once the investment is made, it becomes very tempting to drop the time-consuming oral evaluation and just hook someone up to the QEEG machine (or SPECT scan, or what have you) .. much faster, much cheaper. Hey, we've got to earn our investment back.
But still not proven to be better, or even as good as.
...
FYI - there is no "QEEG Machine". It is a simple EEG recorder that is very similar to those used in hospitals, sleep specialists, neurologits offices, etc. All it does it record raw EEG data from your brain. Usually this only consists of a regular computer, a cap with electrodes in the proper places, and an EEG signal amplifyer that reads the signals from the cap and sends them to the computer. No where near the investment of say a SPECT or PET scanner. And, the QEEG is a non-invasive procedure that can be done just about anywhere in under 2 hours (hook-up, recording data, clean up, etc).

As far as the oral evaluation, that comes before the QEEG is even scheduled. And, the QEEG is not the only diagnostic tool at the Neurofeedback Clinician's disposal. There are other tests such as TOVA (Test of Variables of Attention), and other cognative/performance tests used to paint a picture of what is functioning and what is lacking compared to the other abilities. The tests aren't there just to see if you "have ADD", but to see if there is a particular part of the brain that may not be functioning properly, and trying to find the markers in the data that support the theory, and treat the brain not just the symptoms.
...
I think that in people with ADD there is so much variability that the picture is not that simple .. it is not like you x-ray a broken bone .. see? It's broken! Right there!
...
Actually, it is much more like reading an x-ray than you may think. You learn what patterns to look for, and see what patterns show up in the visual representation of the collected image/data. Finding a hair-line fracture is very similar to finding an excess of Theta in the Frontal Lobe - you have to be trained on what to look for, and how to find it.

And there is much variability in people w/ ADD, but there is also much in common. I think you would be suprised to find out that if everyone with ADD had a QEEG done, there would be subtle differences in the individual patterns, but they would probably all be able to be put into only a handful of "buckets" of similar patterns and functioning, and could probably be correlated to the various known sub-types of ADHD as well as a few that we didn't even think of.
...
Of course, the readout of the QEEG machine is an objective fact. But also in this case, there is the subjectivity of the person interpreting these facts and how that contributes to a diagnosis - the tool does not eliminate that. Far from that - it may even introduce new subjective error patterns.
...
I guess with Neurotherapy, it isn't so much as a "diagnosis", but taking a collection of symptoms, correlating them to abnormal brain function patterns, and training those brain functions back to more of a normal way of functioning. Many (if not all) of the symptoms that ADHD-ers suffer from can be related to brain function, so change the brain and you change the symptoms.
...
A good practitioner should be well aware of the danger of being subjective in an oral evaluation, and the whole diagnostic protocol is targeted to eliminate that as much as possible, as in every scientific protocol.
...
Should, yes. But, we are all human and subject to our own imperfect opinions, biases, recent experiences, and personality quirks.

Would you rather a Clinian be using their subjective judgement to decide if they prescribe you a stimulant medication that carries a "Black Box" (http://www.adrugrecall.com/news/ritalin-black-box.html) warning and could cause insomnia / loss of appetite / irritability / depression / anxiety / stomachaches / headaches / dry mouth / blurry vision / nausea / dizziness / drowsiness / etc. with effect lasting only as long as you take it, or to decide what protocol to use to adjust the function of your brain using techniques that have a very high chance of making lasting change with no medical side effects?
...
Having said that, I do agree that the QEEG is an interesting development.
The QEEG is just a diagnostic tool. The real miracle is the discovery of Neurofeedback and being able to adjust your brain function long-term.

And it's not just about the symptoms of ADHD, it's about relieving other symptoms not related at all to attention using the same techniques. It's the whole idea of changing how we function by changing the part of us in charge of the function. It's about looking at they malfunctions in the various brain systems, and realizing that sufferers of ADD are in a similar boat with sufferers of chronic depression / OCD / Bi-polar / Epipepsy / Autism / ODD / and a host of other "disorders". I know this is a very revolutionary idea and will probably take a lot of thinking to sink in. I think a lot of us have been trained to think in a particular way about our brains, and are a little afraid to think (let alone hope) that there is something out there that will actually allow lasting change and be free from the loss of control some may feel from being dependant on a medication to be who they want to be and keep the monster at bay.

We've stopped believing in Miracles, so when one arrives at our doorstep we slam the door on it and curse under our breath as we walk back to watch more TV.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Taken from http://www.eeginfo.com/info_what.htm (http://www.eeginfo.com/info_what.htm)

What is Neurofeedback?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Neurofeedback is direct training of brain function, by which the brain learns to function more efficiently. We observe the brain in action from moment to moment. We show that information back to the person. And we reward the brain for changing its own activity to more appropriate patterns. This is a gradual learning process. It applies to any aspect of brain function that we can measure. Neurofeedback is also called EEG biofeedback, because it is based on electrical brain activity, the electroencephalogram, or EEG. Neurofeedback is training in self-regulation. It is simply biofeedback applied to the brain directly. Self-regulation is a necessary part of good brain function. Self-regulation training allows the system (the central nervous system) to function better.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>What is Neurofeedback good for?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Neurofeedback addresses problems of brain disregulation. These happen to be numerous. They include the anxiety-depression spectrum, attention deficits, behavior disorders, various sleep disorders, headaches and migraines, PMS, emotional disturbances. It is also useful for organic brain conditions such as seizures, the autism spectrum, and cerebral palsy.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>May this be considered a cure for some of these conditions?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>In the case of organic brain disorders, it can only be a matter of getting the brain to function better rather than of curing the condition. When it comes to problems of disregulation, we would say that there is not a disease to be cured. Where disregulation is the problem, self-regulation may very well be the remedy. But again the word cure would not apply.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>But the symptoms may go away, so it's all the same in the end?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Indeed, with Neurofeedback the symptoms may be entirely suppressed. A person with diagnosed Attention Deficit Disorder may be able to train the brain to pay attention, so that condition will no longer be diagnosable. A person coming in with migraines may no longer have them. (However, that person may still have a greater "vulnerability" to migraines than the average person on the street.) A person with epilepsy may no longer have seizures. (Although that person still retains a vulnerability to seizures.) A child with severe rages and temper tantrums may not have them again. Etc.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>How is this done?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>We apply electrodes to the scalp to listen in on brainwave activity. We process the signal by computer, and we extract information about certain key brainwave frequencies. (All brainwave frequencies are equal, but some are more equal than others….) We show the ebb and flow of this activity back to the person, who attempts to change the activity level. Some frequencies we wish to promote. Others we wish to diminish. We present this information to the person in the form of a video game. The person is effectively playing the video game with his or her brain. Eventually the brainwave activity is "shaped" toward more desirable, more regulated performance. The frequencies we target, and the specific locations on the scalp where we listen in on the brain, are specific to the conditions we are trying to address, and specific to the individual.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>What conditions can be helped?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>We are especially concerned with the more "intractable" brain-based problems of childhood whose needs are not currently being met. This includes first of all seizures and febrile convulsions. It includes the severely disruptive behavior disorders, such as conduct disorder and bipolar disorder. It includes the autistic spectrum and pervasive developmental delay. It includes cerebral palsy, acquired brain injury and birth trauma. Many children have sleep problems that can be helped: bedwetting, nightmares and night terrors, sleep walking, and teeth grinding. We can also be helpful with many of the problems of adolescence: drug-taking, suicidal behavior, anxiety and depression. And we can also help to maintain good brain function as people get older. The good news is that almost any brain, regardless of its level of function, can be trained to function better.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>How do you know how to train a particular brain?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Over the years, certain training protocols have been developed that are helpful with certain classes of problems such as attention, anxiety and depression, seizures and migraines, as well as cognitive function. There are a number of assessment tools we use to help us decide which protocols to use. These are simple neurodiagnostic and neuropsychological tests.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>What is neurodiagnostic and neurophysiological testing?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Neurofeedback addresses issues of brain function, and hence assessment likewise is aimed at measuring function: We employ a continuous performance test called the TOVA ® (Test of Variables of Attention) and the QIK in order to characterize impulsivity and attention. We offer other tests of cognitive function and memory. We do screenings for certain visual problems that are ordinarily overlooked. And we can measure the EEG with quantitative and statistical assessments, a technique referred to as Quantitative EEG, or simply qEEG.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>What is Quantitative EEG (qEEG)?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>QEEG is one of the modern brain imaging techniques. Whereas PET and SPECT and fMRI scans look at how metabolic activity is distributed in the brain, the qEEG looks at how electrical activity is distributed over the scalp. In terms of imaging, nothing else is as fast in revealing brain activity as the qEEG. It is also completely non-invasive, and can be done in a clinician's office. It is well suited to the needs of the Neurofeedback clinician. Often a qEEG will be recommended for clients with clients with brain injury or developmental disorders, in order to help determine the path toward improved function.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>What happens if Neurofeedback clients are taking medications?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>With successful Neurofeedback training, the medications targeting brain function may very well no longer be needed, or they may be needed at lower dosages, as the brain takes over more of the role of regulating itself. This decrease in medications is particularly striking when the medications play a supportive role in any event, as is often the case for the more severe disorders that we are targeting with our work. It is important for clients to communicate with their prescribing physician regarding Neurofeedback and medications.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>Who provides Neurofeedback?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Neurofeedback is typically provided by mental health professionals such as psychologists, family therapists, and counselors. These professions usually work with people one-on-one. The training may also be provided by nurses, clinical social workers, rehabilitation specialists, and educators. MDs also provide the service, but with the exception of psychiatrists will usually have the service provided by a trained staff person.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>If Neurofeedback deals with so many conditions, why have I not heard of it before?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Neurofeedback involves "operant conditioning" of the EEG. As such, it is a psychological technique more than a medical one. The technique is not generally taught in medical school, but operant conditioning is a well-known technique in the science of psychology. On the other hand, most psychologists do not usually deal with the kinds of problems we are targeting. Hence we need to attract a greater variety of professionals to this field. The Brian Othmer Foundation exists for this purpose, among others.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>Is Neurofeedback a reimbursable treatment?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>There are insurance codes for biofeedback, under which Neurofeedback is covered. And there are codes for combining psychotherapy with biofeedback/neurofeedback. However, coverage for chronic mental health concerns is rarely adequate in the United States, so parents may have to advocate strongly with their insurance company for reimbursement. This, more than anything else, makes it necessary for the Brian Othmer Foundation to exist.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>What are the customary costs of Neurofeedback training?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>The typical per-session fee ranges from $50 to $125 depending on the part of the country and the qualifications of the professional. In addition there are costs of assessment, which are usually billed separately. Discounts may be available for massed practice, or for pre-payment plans.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>Is home-training a possibility?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Many of the conditions we address with Neurofeedback involve long-term training, as the brain's capacity to function is gradually enhanced. For some children, Neurofeedback may remain a useful challenge over their life span. To make this economically viable, remote training is an available option for parents. Remote training refers to home training under the (remote) supervision of a clinician. After parents have had their child trained with a clinician for at least twenty sessions, they may transition to remote training and continue on that basis, consulting with the clinician regularly to monitor progress and determine changes in protocol. Then training can be done frequently and consistently, on an affordable basis.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>Neurofeedback sounds like a real breakthrough. Is it? And should I be hopeful for my child?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>The most significant scientific frontier in health care at this time is to understand how our brain functions. We are beginning to learn the brain's "operating system," and these findings are not without clinical implications. We have already learned how to make almost any functioning brain function better. But we can promise only progress, not perfection. The parent's first role in this is to resist the message "there is nothing more that can be done for your child," and to move forward to experience what Neurofeedback may offer.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>Do the effects of the training really last?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>If the problem being addressed is one of brain disregulation, then the answer is yes, and that covers a lot of ground. This is quite as it should be. Neurofeedback involves learning by the brain. And if that brings order out of disorder, the brain will continue to use its new capabilities, and thus reinforce them. Matters are different when we are dealing with degenerative conditions like Parkinson's or the dementias, or when we are working against continuing insults to the system, as may be the case in the autism spectrum. In such cases the training needs to be continued at some level over time. Allergic susceptibilities and food intolerances make it more difficult to hold the gains. Poor digestive function will pose a problem, as does poor nutrition. A child living in a toxic environment (in either the physical or the psychological sense) will have more difficulty retaining good function.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>What is the success rate?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>Through our twenty years of experience with Neurofeedback, we have reached the point of having very high expectations for success in training. When such success is not forthcoming, or if the gains cannot hold, then there is usually a reason for that which needs to be pursued. In the normal course of events, Neurofeedback ought to work with everybody. That is to say, nearly everyone should make gains that they themselves would judge to be worthwhile. Our brains are made for learning and skill-acquisition. On the other hand, we are working with many families whose expectations have been lowered by their past experience. And they need to see progress before they will share our optimism. We understand that. It turns out that among the vast majority of clients (>95% in one clinician's experience) the actual outcome exceeds the prior expectations. Against such low expectations, the changes that can be produced with Neurofeedback may even appear miraculous. One Neurofeedback office has a sign on its front desk: "We expect miracles. If none occur, something has gone wrong." What appears miraculous in all of this is really nothing more than the incredible capacity of our brains to recover function when given a chance.</TD></TR><TR><TD height=20></TD></TR><TR><TD>I want to know more, where can I read about this?

</TD></TR><TR><TD>The information above is from The Brian Othmer Foundation (http://www.brianothmerfoundation.org/) website. More information can be found there. Books on Neurofeedback:
Symphony in the Brain (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0871138077/eeginstituatt-20/103-2587675-9865452)
Getting Rid of Ritalin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1571742549/eeginstituatt-20/103-2587675-9865452)
ADD the 20-Hour Solution (http://www.addsolution.info/)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

DP, I'm not sure who or what you're arguing with here; no one disagrees biofeedback is a potentially quite useful treatment with efficacy shown in several preliminary studies in humans, the point people are making is something else entirely. It's great you have a lot of enthusiasm about this but there are more relevant subforums about therapies here that would allow you to communicate this much more effectively than in a thread about something else.

... but there are more relevant subforums about therapies here that would allow you to communicate this much more effectively than in a thread about something else.
Yeah, I think I'm going to see if I can get a hold of a Forum Admin and move everything other than the BBC article to it's own thread.

DP -

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and also for the additional information about the neurofeedback training - what it is, what it can help with, etc. It has very much captured my interest - and the whole idea of it sounds terrific!

I am especially curious about how it has worked for individuals with clinical depression. And I hope to find more personal stories about that.

Anyway, thanks again!!

Sue

Research has shown over and over that medication is the only treatment that achieves theraputic levels for ADHD.
It is a fact that medication is not for everyone who has adhd. To begin with, medication simply does not work for about 20% of people who have adhd. Those people need to find alternative treatments for their ADHD. Some people dislike the use of medications for various reasons. Those people also have to resort to alternative treatments. Things like exercise and maintaining a healthy diet do make a difference... but you still have adhd at the end of the day no matter what.

Unfortunately there has been a proliferation of fad therapies that have been either shown to be ineffective (like neurofeedback) or have no real baisis in medical/scientific fact and have no proven benefit (like the Dore program). It's a fact, these are unproven therapies. Many worried parents have been scammed by companies offering bogus therapies and treatmets for ADHD, autism ,dyslexia ,touretts, etc., and have paid large amounts of money for therapies that basically do not work.

It must be that it is more profitable to hype the fad therapies than it is to tell the truth. We just don't need it. What we need are real answers with substance and proven medical facts.

Me :D

dominophreak and ozchris i totally agree with you. i am currently trying HOMEPATHIC remedies in a few days - very excited!! I am 15 and currently refuse to put any more garbage in my body. thats what is is, garbage.

This thread has gone off topic.

Should you wish to create a thread that covers the pros/cons of a particular therapy, please do so in the appropriate section of the forums.

We as a forums strive to keep information on the forums as factual as possible...this is what makes these forums a valued information resource. Please keep in mind that personal opinions are just that, opinions. If you make a factual claim, please be prepared to provide evidence of fact.

Personal experiences and anecdotes are a critical aspect of the forums...but its just as important for readers to understand what they're reading...so they can make educated decisions.

Thanks!