I am diagnosed add and currently am on MPH IR. It works, but I have a pronounced body feeling on it, wich I call "body load". "body load" refers to the feeling the drug produces on the body as a whole (nerves systems).

Now, being add I was always unfocused so I percieved everything at once most of my life. Including the feeling of my body, im very aware of it. Now mph not only gives mental stimulation but also body stimulation. The first 2 hours of the feeling on my body is very present but not unpleasent/irritating, but after the first 2 hours it turns nasty, leaving me with a very "dirty" "body load".

Now the big Q: Wich add med has the least effect on the body,

I really hope there is such a thing, I have an understimulated brain not and understimulated body. I dont need my nerves being fried all the time :confused: First I thought "hooray ritalin, my cure" but it turns out the be a nasty feeling rollarcoaster wich crash is innevitable.

It may be different for everyone .. but for me, dexedrine feels much gentler than ritalin does.

Yeah, my schrink doesnt want me on dex. I dont know why exactly, I think its because she thinks im a druggie (I admitted my gbl addiction problem I had in the past, and used some technical pharmacologie terms).

Shes really looking at me with a very critical facial expression, it sucks. I hate this additude, drug users or former drug users are almost seen as non human by some.

Keep bothering her for the Dexedrine it is gentler.

I think the idea of one being gentler than another depends on one's brain chemistry....

Amphetamine has more of a direct effect on the cardiovascular system than Methylphenidate. It directly impacts norepinephrine, which usually leads to higher blood pressure (though there are other factors in the equation here, as there are other potentially opposing effects, so the end result may not reflect this). I have yet to find any research on this, but many seem to think that d,l-amphetamine's effect is more prominent than d-amphetamine alone.

Amphetamine also has more of an influence on serotonin, whereas Methylphenidate does not seem to affect it very much. It is thought that Methylphenidate is more likely to cause anxiety. I've also have read that some seem to think that this is the primary mechanism of blood pressure increases with Methylphenidate.

I have a study here on blood pressure changes with the medication:
Blood Pressure Changes Associated With Medication Treatment of Adults With Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Timothy E. Wilens, M.D., Paul G. Hammerness, M.D., et al.

http://www.ermassoc.org/pubs/Blood-Pressure.pdf

Anyway, Amphetamine (n = 26) yielded a 5.3 mm/Hg increase in systolic blood pressure over baseline, while placebo (n = 25) yielded a 1.0 mm/Hg decrease. For Methylphenidate (n = 18), it was +2.4 mm/Hg, vs. +2.2 mm/Hg for the placebo group (n = 17). I'm not really sure as to what drug "amphetamine" means in this study though (whether it be Adderall or Dexedrine). Heart rate was up 7.3bpm for Amphetamine, whereas it was up 4.5 for Methylphenidate (placebo was +0.9 and +2.2 respectively).

Dexedrine is the smoothest stimulant I've tried.

I've tried Ritalin, Dexedrine, Adderall, etc.

An old thread on preludin mentions it may have less body load. But I doubt its
available any where.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38993&highlight=preludin

For what it's worth, the d- isomers (i.e. dextromethylphenidate in Focalin, and dextroamphetamine) of these medications pass the blood-brain barrier much more easily than the l- isomers, which are found in the normal racemic mixtures.

And dextromethamphetamine (Desoxyn) passes the BBB easiest of all, and also has comparatively less activity on norepinephrine (and more on serotonin) than dextroamphetamine. Many people here seem to feel less of a "push" from it, and more of a controlled focus, which for me I consider a positive point.

Dex dex dex! Just my opinion based on my experiences, of course. :)

If your doc wants you on MPH I'd definitely give Focalin a shot since it's a single isomer med like dexedrine.

I really hate the stigma so many docs attatch to dex. If they'd ever actually compared it first hand to Adderall, I think they'd definitely be singing a different tune.

Vyvanse might be an option as well. The main active ingredient there is dextroamphetamine but since it's a pro-drug the potential for abuse is supposed to be lower so your doc may be more willing to agree to that. But I can't say how it compares to Dexedrine IR since I haven't tried it myself.

but after the first 2 hours it turns nasty, leaving me with a very "dirty" "body load".What is "dirty" "body load"? What is your dosing schedule?

the med with the least peripheral effects is Vyvanse. by far the smoothest.

Its possible no stimulant or no stimulant alone will have acceptable side effects
for some people.Propranolol would block some of the body load for example.

http://www.neuropsychiatryreviews.com/march02/adhd.html

Problem: A 20-year-old college student responded well to methylphenidate but experienced edginess. Changing to a long-acting form was not helpful; tricyclics were poorly tolerated and bupropion was only partially effective.
Solution: Return to methylphenidate but add propranolol (20 mg/d). Make sure that the patient doesn’t have asthma, which can be severely aggravated by propranolol.

For what it's worth, the d- isomers (i.e. dextromethylphenidate in Focalin, and dextroamphetamine) of these medications pass the blood-brain barrier much more easily than the l- isomers, which are found in the normal racemic mixtures.

And dextromethamphetamine (Desoxyn) passes the BBB easiest of all, and also has comparatively less activity on norepinephrine (and more on serotonin) than dextroamphetamine. Many people here seem to feel less of a "push" from it, and more of a controlled focus, which for me I consider a positive point.

There aren't a whole lot of doctors that will hand out prescriptions for pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine (Desoyxn):p

As far as less 'body load' - for stimulants it's going to be Dexedrine (which you can now get 'new and improved' with Lysine tacked on:p as Vyvanse)

But I would think one of the antidepressants may be even less - perhaps Wellbutrin or Strattera? Of course - they have their own list of bad side effects (urological nightmare for lots of guys, and some people feel 'dull' on them).

There aren't a whole lot of doctors that will hand out prescriptions for pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine (Desoyxn):p
Ben, there is no pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine currently in production.

Don't worry, I used to believe that Desoxyn was pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine at one time too. It's a very common misunderstanding due to the way the product insert continues to be printed.

However, if you read the fine print on the insert you will read that it is actually just the dextromethamphetamine isomer of methamphetamine.

Methamphetamine is composed of both a dextro and a levo isomer.

A perfect analogy of this would be to compare amphetamine (Adderall) to dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine). Dexedrine is just the dextro isomer of amphetamine.

I hope this helps you understand it better.

I almost forgot to respond to the actual question being asked in this thread.

It has been my experience from having tried all of the stimulants prescribed for this condition (except Vyvanse & Daytrana) that Desoxyn is by far the medication with the least body stimulation.

Oh I know that Desoxyn is methamphetamine hydrochloride/desoxyephedrine and all about the methyl groups and isomers and whatnot.

Having said that - Desoxyn is still WAY more potent than amphetamine (i.e. Adderall) and still is a methamphetamine (even if it isn't the same as 'crystal meth').

Desoxyn is still WAY more potent than amphetamine (i.e. Adderall)

Have you actually tried Desoxyn yourself?

There aren't a whole lot of doctors that will hand out prescriptions for pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine (Desoyxn)

This is more a matter of politics, business, and ignorance than chemistry, pharmacology, or sound clinical practice. Desoxyn can be very helpful.

As far as less 'body load' - for stimulants it's going to be Dexedrine (which you can now get 'new and improved' with Lysine tacked on:p as Vyvanse)

Dexedrine may produce more body load in some people than dextromethylphenidate. Note that the amphetamines have much more affinity for promoting norepinephrine than the methylphenidates.

Have you actually tried Desoxyn yourself?

Yeah - and I understand completely what you're saying about how Meth is over stigmatized because of the crystal meth epidemic.

Meth can be extremely helpful as a 'second line' drug in my experience when more traditional stimulants like Adderall and Ritalin don't work.

But - just because Desoxyn is a far cry from crystal meth does NOT mean it is on the same 'level' as Adderall and Ritalin. That additional methyl group changes a LOT.;)

I mean methamphetamine and amphetamine - at comparable doses, the effects of methamphetamine are much more potent, longer lasting, and can be harmful to the central nervous system over time.

That's why you see a typical dosage of Desoxyn is usually less than 10mg while other drugs like Adderall and Vyvanse have typical dosages of 20-70mg.

That's why you see a typical dosage of Desoxyn is usually less than 10mg while other drugs like Adderall and Vyvanse have typical dosages of 20-70mg.
You're keep assuming or appearing to assume that methamphetamine and dextromethamphetamine are the same, they aren't. They are very far from acting the same, and chemically the dextromethamphetamine is only 50% of methamphetamine.

Adderall is a racemic mixture of dextro & levo amphetamine. The levoamphetamine is primarily active in the PNS (peripheral nervous system). In contrast, the dextroamphetamine is primarily active in the CNS (central nervous system).

The reason a 10mg dose of dextroamphetamine comparable to a 20 mg dose of Adderall is because the 20 mg dose of Adderall has "approximately" that much dextroamphetamine contained within it.

As far as Vyvanse is concerned, it happens to be an extended release product for starters, and a 70 mg dose of Vyvanse is equal to a 30 mg dose of Adderall XR. A 30 mg dose of Adderall XR would be equivalent to "approximately" a 15 mg dose of dextroamphetamine.

Concerning Desoxyn vs the racemic methaphetamine, well, it would be against the rules of this forum to discuss just how differently the two are in their individual effects due to this being a forum that only involves the discussion of legally prescribed treatments for ADHD. That being said, feel free to start a thread in the Addiction/Substance abuse forum, and I would be more than happy to share my limited experience (from the early 90's) that exist between the effects of Desoxyn & the racemic methamphetamine.

You're keep assuming or appearing to assume that methamphetamine and dextromethamphetamine are the same, they aren't. They are very far from acting the same, and chemically the dextromethamphetamine is only 50% of methamphetamine.

Adderall is a racemic mixture of dextro & levo amphetamine. The levoamphetamine is primarily active in the PNS (peripheral nervous system). In contrast, the dextroamphetamine is primarily active in the CNS (central nervous system).

The reason a 10mg dose of dextroamphetamine comparable to a 20 mg dose of Adderall is because the 20 mg dose of Adderall has "approximately" that much dextroamphetamine contained within it.

As far as Vyvanse is concerned, it happens to be an extended release product for starters, and a 70 mg dose of Vyvanse is equal to a 30 mg dose of Adderall XR. A 30 mg dose of Adderall XR would be equivalent to "approximately" a 15 mg dose of dextroamphetamine.

Concerning Desoxyn vs the racemic methaphetamine, well, it would be against the rules of this forum to discuss just how differently the two are in their individual effects due to this being a forum that only involves the discussion of legally prescribed treatments for ADHD. That being said, feel free to start a thread in the Addiction/Substance abuse forum, and I would be more than happy to share my limited experience (from the early 90's) that exist between the effects of Desoxyn & the racemic methamphetamine.

Uh...I'm the one saying that they're completely different - NOT the same. You're preaching to the choir man - I know all about amphetamines and all of the derivatives. Due to the extra methyl group - Meth is a lot more intense than your standard dextroamphetamine mix (i.e. Adderall, Dexedrine, etc.) - thus a smaller dosage of meth is just as intense as a larger dose of amphetamine (hence daily desoxyn doses are commonly less than 10mg).

Here's a good reference chart;):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Methamphetamines.PNG

OK man, well as long as your in the choir then I'm happy. :)

Its possible no stimulant or no stimulant alone will have acceptable side effects
for some people.Propranolol would block some of the body load for example.

http://www.neuropsychiatryreviews.com/march02/adhd.htmlTheta, thank you for a great article. I am starting to understand why I needed to keep taking bupropion with my Ritalin when I no longer smoked cigarettes.

I mean methamphetamine and amphetamine - at comparable doses, the effects of methamphetamine are much more potent, longer lasting, and can be harmful to the central nervous system over time.1) Mg-by-mg potency is not an issue here. Each drug has its own considerations. Dextroamphetamine has more potency in the release of norepinephrine -- which could potentially be more toxic over time, due to the typical profile of adrenergic side effects.
2) Dextromethamphetamine is not longer lasting than amphetamine, it is shorter lasting, at a biological half-life of 4-5 hours, compared to 10 hours for dextroamphetamine.
3) Neurotoxicity at clinical doses of methamphetamine has never ever been demonstrated to occur in humans, same as with amphetamine, which also displays neurotoxicity at massive doses.

That's why you see a typical dosage of Desoxyn is usually less than 10mg while other drugs like Adderall and Vyvanse have typical dosages of 20-70mg.So what? Less liver load from desoxyn? You're right that people are prescribed lower doses -- a lower dose of desoxyn could be considered to be equivalent to a higher dose of amphetamine ... except it's not -- again, each drug has its own considerations and this discussion of potency as if that's a bad thing is rubbish.

I know all about amphetamines and all of the derivatives.Clearly not.