I have been married 20 years and in the last 2 years my husband has stopped all physical contact with me. He tells me he loves me but he does not kiss me or hold me. I am a very affectionate person so this is killing me. I don't know what to do unless I divorce him because I feel like i am all alone anyway. He is affectionate to our children (Hugs) but not me.:(

What is his explanation for this change? Initially I'd suspect infidelity. Loss of physical affection after 18 years is a possible indicator. I'm not saying "your husband is cheating on you"... it's just a possible explanation.

What happened prior to the start of the lack of touch? Did he gain alot of weight? Lose a job? Anything that might negatively affect how he feels about himself? Have YOU changed?

There's such a myriad of reasons that could explain this, but it would help to know what he offers in the way of explanation.

Now I say all this with experience in my pocket. I've been there, and, ironically, so has my husband (at different times in our relationship). We've both had our reasons for withdrawing from the other physically.


If you haven't already, start by talking to him, and asking him flat out why he's withdrawn from you, but don't ask accusingly , assuming he's having an affair.

The only reason I say infidelity is because typically in cases where infidelity is there, there's other signs that can be overlooked. When you shine a flashlight into the scenario, those little things can come to light and start to piece together.

Some people are afraid of touch.

I remember having a patient who was dying (lung cancer) and some of the nurses were complaining that she was unaffectionate to her husband. But there had been changes in his body and health.

What has changed in the last 2 years?

Hey {{{dixie}}} :) -

I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and sending you a bottomless barrel of cyberhugs from me to you!!

I am so sorry to hear about what you are experiencing w/your husband. That sounds very painful, and THAT KIND of pain is some of the worst (in my experience anyway)!! Do you have any friends or family that can give you some support and affection right now. You certainly deserve it - as do we all!!!

I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you (none of my relationships have lasted longer than three years). But I don't believe anyone CAUSES another person to stop being affectionate with them, so please don't blame yourself!! And I hope that you get your daily dose of affection back (from him - OR - from a new love, if that's where life leads you) A.S.A.P.!!!

Love,
Sue

I wondered if he is having an affair. He is a control freak so when things do not go his way he pouts and shuts down emotionally. The last time I had surgery I told him not to kiss before they took me back since he never kisses me normally. When I complain that he never shows me affection he does for a day or two and then stops. For one year he slept on the couch. I told him in a matter of fact way that I did not get married to sleep alone. He said the bed was too small. I bought a King size bed. Now he is all of the way on the other side. I let the dog sleep in the bed on my side. He complained about that but I told him that the dog was a better companion than him. He sleeps by my legs and keeps me warm at least. I made an appointment with a therapist. I would rather live alone since I am alone anyway in my marriage. I have never been so depressed in my life. I cry all of the time. I go to work come home and go straight to bed everyday. Weekends are the worst. There is just no reason to get up in the morning. I have even thought about getting massages just so I could feel something. I am a touchy feely person. He hugs the kids but not me. There is someone interested in me and it is looking pretty good to me right now but it would be just physical and temporary.:confused:

I would advice marriage counseling.

I wonder, you said that you've been married to him for 20 years, he might be going through the male menopause.

Or things are starting to not work like they should and he's afraid to be touchy feely because of the possible embarrassment and shame, you did say he's a control freak after all.

the third possibility is that it could be an affair but from the way you describe I'm not sure his is the case also I'd like to challenge the people that automatically jump to the whole 'cheating on you' angle, every day life isn't always an Oprah special.

but those are just my guesses, also the fact you are considering cheating is not a good sign, seek professional advice

hope you have a good day :)

What happens when you touch him?

He would comply butI just stopped because I got tired of initiating all of the time.

It could be depression you said after 18 years meaning middle age - he is a control freak but he can not control the aging process - I have become less "physical" over the last couple of months because I am noticing the signs of aging and no longer feel attractive which decreases the time I want to be "physical" and I don't just mean sex I mean I haven't felt like touching at all - and frankly I have been a bit blah lately.

Just another perspective besides the affair angle which has been more than addressed here.

My big concern is that you are discussing your husband but then you added that there is someone who is interested but it would only be physical and temporary. Hmmmm

in regards to the person you would find a physical and temporary fix with, the grass ain't always greener........


since i'm the only one that brought up the affair point, I want to reiterate that I didn't say he's having an affair, it's just a possible explanation for a persons withdrawal from their spouse.

I've never met you or your husband so I can't say what is the cause and for the record, I don't watch Oprah.

Sometimes men just lose interest. Evolution may have programmed us to feel this way (that doesn't mean we can't get past it though). There's that whole thing about maximizing one's reproductive potential, which is why other women remain attractive to most men in a relationship (even if they don't act on it). The so-called "7 year itch" could be longer or shorter but there is something to it. A loss of interest is often temporary but 2 years without seems like a very long time to me.

It sounds like he may have resentment towards you and is unwilling to discuss it. Alternatively he could be unhappy with the direction of his life outside the relationship (career, achievements, etc.) and he is somehow taking it out on the relationship, consciously or not. One more possibility is that he's having "functional issues" related to age, if you catch my drift, and this could be killing his self esteem and therefore interest. In any case, nothing's going to get resolved without a frank discussion which could (and possibly might have to) get ugly. Don't go treading on somebody else's lawn before you go to marriage counseling.

is he on add medication?? when i take my medicine i do not want to touch anyone or be affectionate at all.. but then again you say he is affectionate with your kids so i do not quite have an answer or explanation for you. talk to him about it though.

ahh, this is a concern for ALL women who have been married a long time. Its not an add thing, believe me. Guys are just not as "touchy/feely" as women are. This is a very common compliant. Sometimes I believe women want everything, hence one reason I have never been married..I finsised your message... this is why I'm probably never getting married. After 20 YEARS!!!! sorry, but this post is really pi$$ing me off. I'm out of here. My Grandad, who is 90 years old, just got DIVORCED from his 80 year old wife last year, for reasons like this--and most importantly because of MONEY! oh yeah, good ole money! pitiful!

Dixie.........

Reverse the scenario....guys are expected to just become celibate in these situations. The question wouldn't even be asked.

Sex can get pretty boring after a decade or so and it takes serious imagination awareness and discretion to keep a spark alive. The boredom is probably more acute for ADD guys.....and its really difficult for a woman with conventional ideas on romance to find ways to intrigue an ADD mind that requires high levels of stimulation to function.

If one side of a marriage feels the sex is out of sorts then things are out of sorts and it's time to find a counsellor or therapist.

I'm kinda unconventional in saying that sexual fidelity isn't the be all and end all of a marriage, but what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and if you take some enjoyments outside you must be prepared to offer you husband the same opportunity.

Maybe instead of indulging your own desire you should be thinking about how to rekindle his....by offering him what you yourself are considering. I don't know what it's like in the states but here in the UK it's legal for a woman to buy her husband a girl for an hour or two. Contrary to popular belief not all "working girls" are drug addicted diseased or pimped and most business is conducted off the sreets in flats and houses in comfortable neighbourhoods.

Such actions are of course highly controversial and only work if both parties are open minded, but it might show him the lengths to which you will go to save the marriage and bring some happiness back into his life. If he genuinely just isn't interested then talking about it might give him the hint that you have these needs and he will need to turn a blind eye if he wants to enjoy the other benefits marriage to you brings and keep his children safe and secure.

The ideas contained in this post are expressed to stimulate discussion and thought and should not be undertaken without professional advice and considerable research.

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yours controversially

kilt

kilt,

thanks for handling the post in a more, "mature" manner. As you can see(even on here) I let the anger get the best of me sometimes. Are you suprised though by this post?

Its not an add thing, believe me. Guys are just not as "touchy/feely" as women are. This is a very common compliant.

I have to agree with Cameron's assessment here.

Hmmm I'd have to say that while many men are not overtly touchy feely I've yet to meet a guy that didn't like a professionally done aromatherapy massage and I'm not talking about a euphemism for paid sex here despite my earlier post.

If women want touchy feely guys then it takes some work on trust and understanding the subliminal messages...plus alot of repairing the damage that his mother and/or previous girlfiends have done.

Trust me....most guys have a girlfiend somewhere in their past dating history and they leave serious longterm scars.

I would also say that stick most guys in a room with guaranteed privacy, some champagne, some attractive flirty approachable women who initiate touch contact and show their appreciation of the compliment being returned and there are very few who remain stoically non-contactable.

Yes guys are not touchy feely.....because they've learned not to be.

kilt

Dear Kilt
I really appreciate your open mindedness. It is refreshing. He is such a prude. He will not go to a restaurant that serves alcohol. He has some strange ways. I have wondered if I should visit Victoria's Secret and get some exciting bedroom wear. I am going to talk to a therapist today also. I also told my husband we need to talk. I am only 42. I still have desires, I still feel sexy. I am no model by any means but I consider myself someone who could be desired. We used to have knock out sex and I was always open to whatever he wanted to try. Gravity has been somewhat kind if I do say so. Maybe he is depressed. I do get flirted with guys half my age, and I am kind of shy so I don't seek it. I mostly miss the holding each other. Sex is great but I like to be held.

Maybe he does have mother issues. They have not spoken in 20 years. he simply cut her out of his life. Maybe since he can do that so easily he is doing the same to me. He did kiss me this morning. Maybe he does not have a clue.

I'm glad your seeking professional advice, remember therapists are all individual and it may take time to find the best one for you. Opening communication with your husband is good too, even if it's only to say that communication has to be improved.

I'd be careful of the bedroom wear for a bit. If there is a sexual issue it might make things worse by pressurising him. Slow and subtle might be a better motto...look after yourself, a bit of pampering, take the advice of friends and give yourself a gentle makeover. It'll make you feel better and he might notice the change.

The important thing is to try to create a safe space for communication. This is difficult, not many marriages manage it at any time. Ultimately it's about unconditional love. Do you love him regardless of what he may have done, want to do, or just not want to do. and if so how do you communicate that to him?

Is the reverse true...does he love you unconditionally. how do you each work towards saying what you need to be happy and content and how does each partner try to fulfill those needs either themselves or by giving each other the space to fulfill them in other ways.

Women aften think that men are simple sexually....nothing could be further from the truth.

kilt

Kilt, you hit the nail on the head! I love your introspctive on things! you said..."Trust me....most guys have a girlfiend somewhere in their past dating history and they leave serious longterm scars."

EXACTLY! I have lived with two different woman, and I have a lot of scares--especially from the second experience. Took me a year or so to recover from that insensitive person.

Kilt, "the ADD forum resident relationship/theapist"...kidding(sort of :)

Gee, could our husbands be brothers? My husband is exactly like this too. I know how lonely and frustrating it is. Words and actions don't match. I too tired of initiating. He is not motivated to attend counseling and I am planning on a divorce once I find full-time employment.

Hugs, remember, it is not you. I used to blame myself, but I tried everything I knew and the counselors too. People need physical affection as much as they need food, clothing, shelter, and water.

Lovely..another divorce statistic(assuming your in the US).

Statistics don't tell the whole story......there is much more than meets the eye. A marriage takes two. Failure of on party to fulfill their marital obligations essentially voids the contract---assuming they are capable but unwilling. Then there is emotional abuse---30 years of trying is long enough don't you think? If there is no change in that length of time....I don't consider myself a statistic, I consider myself a person who is making a difficult decision based on many reasons, one of which is the impact it has had on my health and the desire not to role model an unhealthy relationship for my children.

Visual, sorry being insensitive to your situation. I didn't mean to(add moment). You sound like an intelligent person. I'm sure you have tried. I know how tough relationships are...BUT, I don't know anything about marriage. 30 years! wow, that sucks even more! my parents have been married 40 something years. I know they have had some tough times.

Thanks Cameron, I appreciate the understanding and openess to listening to my story. I do think some people take marriage too lightly, but I really don't think most people plan on divorce when they marry--it is too painful a decision to make.

VI

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Trust me....most guys have a girlfiend somewhere in their past dating history and they leave serious longterm scars.


I do not believe this particular issue would be isolated to the male gender - I see this as a people probability myself.



Women aften think that men are simple sexually....nothing could be further from the truth.


Although I can not refute this from a male's perspective I can do so from a females - I have never considered any "rule" or "type" to apply to every member of a certain gender. Frankly I dislike being expected to have a specific perspective based solely upon my gender. I see each individual in their own unique person-hood - I agree that gender would play a role is social grooming to an extent. I also see that we are all not going to respond to this grooming in a cookie cutter fashion no matter our gender.



I'm kinda unconventional in saying that sexual fidelity isn't the be all and end all of a marriage, but what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and if you take some enjoyments outside you must be prepared to offer you husband the same opportunity.

As unconventional as this is I agree totally - it is only fair.




The ideas contained in this post are expressed to stimulate discussion and thought and should not be undertaken without professional advice and considerable research.

Most excellent advice - IMHO



If you believe this post is unsuitable for a family viewable site or contravenes legal restrictions in your area please feel free to report it to the mods for removal.


Oh no need to report it I believe the moderator has already been through here {see above} - very tastefully presented - duality intended - opps the evil ADD brain emerges. . . must be medication or bed time. . . . either way time to exist stage left . . . .---> oh the other left <---

My marriage (11 years) has some similar problems. My husband's been sleeping on the couch for the last 4 years with no explanation, because he won't talk about it (I did try in the beginning). And so it remains the "elephant in the room". Ever-present, but never spoken of.

I'm very torn about it. On the one hand - I don't particularly mind the way things are, but on the other hand, I worry about what this means for our marriage. Men have needs, right? And if I'm not meeting them how can HE be happy? Of course, I have no clue how he feels because he won't talk about it. Otherwise, we get along well, don't argue, and have a very amiable, if emotionally distant, relationship. Still, we can't go on ignoring that elephant forever can we?

I know my husband would refuse to go to marriage counseling, so I've never suggested it (after all, we're ignoring that elephant, remember?). Besides, I think I would be way too embarrassed to talk about sex with him or in front of him, and honestly - I don't really want to hear his reasons. I already know that I've gotten fat and gross, and I snore, and I'm afraid to hear that he finds me repulsive and is no longer attracted to me. That maybe he is just staying with me for the sake of our young son...

....but at other times, like on our anniversary, he'll give me a beautiful card and roses, and I'll think "Perhaps he does still love me". We get along well after all, he's just not very expressive.

My therapist has suggested that perhaps he is waiting for ME to make a move. But I don't know if I could ever summon the nerve to do that. I don't even want sex (I have my own issues obviously) but I don't want to lose him.

Anyhow, I figure that most of the bedroom problem lies with me, so I plan to work on it in individual therapy and who knows.

Read Terrence Real, "I Don't Want to Talk About It". And his other works on relationships. Right on point.

If your bottom line is, you'll accept whatever the status quo is, then you've got no leverage to change things. And you need to think long and hard about, what need in YOU is being met by this dysfunctional situation, that you're living this way? I'm finding that changes I need to make in myself to move toward a healthier marriage are not some easy, joyful thing. It's HARD to move out of the comfortable range of responses and push myself in new directions. I went a long, long loooooooonnnnng time just burying my pain and resentment, because I was used to doing that and was good at it for a longtime. It was only when I essentially FELL APART... unable to do my job, crying all the time, blahblahblah... I could NOT continue because my soul wasn't letting me. And my bottom line became, he had to go to counseling and make some serious changes, and so did I, or I would be unable to stay with him. I couldn't BREATHE from the pain that would rise up and sieze me at inopportune moments. I had no choice but to force the issue. But if it were still up to my BRAIN, I'd still be keeping it all in and not rocking the boat. My point is, if you're not really, truly, rockbottom miserable, don't expect to get anywhere making changes, because you won't be willing to risk losing what you have, and he'll be able to call your bluff and stay in his own comfort zone. As long as I could bear the pain and function and keep putting a face on it, I did, right up until I had no other option.

I've heard there are some people who DO manage to find constructive, loving, healthy solutions to their problems as they arise, and things don't get buried. It might be an Urban Myth. But you look like my kinda gal, who will take it and take it for years,and allow him to duck responsibility for handling his feelings, leaving you to carry them for him. Like an Emotional Sherpa. You know Sherpas? The natives of Nepal who do the heavy lifting of equipment for the rich travelers who want to climb Everest. So Mr. Rich Gotbucks climbs Everest, and goes home and tells all his friends what he did, and no one talks about the Sherpa who not only climbed Everest, but did it carrying all Mr. Gotbucks's stuff on his back. I was carrying my husband's issues around FOR him, and he got to think "Whew. Sure glad I was able to talk with her about that emotional trauma that scarred me for life. I feel much better. She's so understanding, she can handle that for me"... and when he's expecting me to "handle" some deep personal issues that color how he reacts to the world, and how he interprests what I do, well, no, I can't just "handle" it, he needs to handle it for himself.

Many men don't have any idea how to handle a feeling, they run like rabbits from anything that feels like a feeling. My husband might well leap in front of an actual, physical oncoming train to save my body from death, but he's been perfectly fine with "throwing me under the bus" emotionally to save his ego from an instant of feeling "lesser". And I have to ask myself some hard quesions about why I was willing to accept that for so long, and changethat in myself, while I also look for ways to connect with him and help him see what he's doing to me and find ways to not do it anymore.

No shame in accepting things as they are. I mean, it may well be that you would stand to lose things you can't afford to lose if you fought for change. SOmetimes there are problems that don't have a good solution.

I'm sorry for the miserable situation you're in. It's awful. I'll be praying for you, hon.

Piglet you made me feel so much better. I honestly thought no one could know what it feels like but clearly you do. I have had the crying jags and can barely work. I have been seeing a therapist which basically told me the Sherpa story. I don't even have time between home, work and kids to process it all but I am beginning to see things more clearly. I am tired of carrying around all of his problems. It is a start. Thanks for sharing with me.Read Terrence Real, "I Don't Want to Talk About It". And his other works on relationships. Right on point.

If your bottom line is, you'll accept whatever the status quo is, then you've got no leverage to change things. And you need to think long and hard about, what need in YOU is being met by this dysfunctional situation, that you're living this way? I'm finding that changes I need to make in myself to move toward a healthier marriage are not some easy, joyful thing. It's HARD to move out of the comfortable range of responses and push myself in new directions. I went a long, long loooooooonnnnng time just burying my pain and resentment, because I was used to doing that and was good at it for a longtime. It was only when I essentially FELL APART... unable to do my job, crying all the time, blahblahblah... I could NOT continue because my soul wasn't letting me. And my bottom line became, he had to go to counseling and make some serious changes, and so did I, or I would be unable to stay with him. I couldn't BREATHE from the pain that would rise up and sieze me at inopportune moments. I had no choice but to force the issue. But if it were still up to my BRAIN, I'd still be keeping it all in and not rocking the boat. My point is, if you're not really, truly, rockbottom miserable, don't expect to get anywhere making changes, because you won't be willing to risk losing what you have, and he'll be able to call your bluff and stay in his own comfort zone. As long as I could bear the pain and function and keep putting a face on it, I did, right up until I had no other option.

I've heard there are some people who DO manage to find constructive, loving, healthy solutions to their problems as they arise, and things don't get buried. It might be an Urban Myth. But you look like my kinda gal, who will take it and take it for years,and allow him to duck responsibility for handling his feelings, leaving you to carry them for him. Like an Emotional Sherpa. You know Sherpas? The natives of Nepal who do the heavy lifting of equipment for the rich travelers who want to climb Everest. So Mr. Rich Gotbucks climbs Everest, and goes home and tells all his friends what he did, and no one talks about the Sherpa who not only climbed Everest, but did it carrying all Mr. Gotbucks's stuff on his back. I was carrying my husband's issues around FOR him, and he got to think "Whew. Sure glad I was able to talk with her about that emotional trauma that scarred me for life. I feel much better. She's so understanding, she can handle that for me"... and when he's expecting me to "handle" some deep personal issues that color how he reacts to the world, and how he interprests what I do, well, no, I can't just "handle" it, he needs to handle it for himself.

Many men don't have any idea how to handle a feeling, they run like rabbits from anything that feels like a feeling. My husband might well leap in front of an actual, physical oncoming train to save my body from death, but he's been perfectly fine with "throwing me under the bus" emotionally to save his ego from an instant of feeling "lesser". And I have to ask myself some hard quesions about why I was willing to accept that for so long, and changethat in myself, while I also look for ways to connect with him and help him see what he's doing to me and find ways to not do it anymore.

No shame in accepting things as they are. I mean, it may well be that you would stand to lose things you can't afford to lose if you fought for change. SOmetimes there are problems that don't have a good solution.

I'm sorry for the miserable situation you're in. It's awful. I'll be praying for you, hon.

My point is, if you're not really, truly, rockbottom miserable, don't expect to get anywhere making changes, because you won't be willing to risk losing what you have, and he'll be able to call your bluff and stay in his own comfort zone. As long as I could bear the pain and function and keep putting a face onpiglet

Piglet that was a good post!



Here is a excerpt from a book Harriet Lerner,
The Dance of Anger (http://www.spiritsite.com/writing/harler/part4.shtml) I checked it out of my local library and read several years ago The words I read changed the way I approached my relationship and my part of it. This book reminded me of the emotional boundaries I forgot to draw in my relationship with Gary.

Below is the portion I read when I was at one of the lowest points in my life. . . . and they caught my attention and spurned me forward so that with that day I had completed the entire thing.



Part 1
Anger is a signal, and one worth listening to. Our anger may be a message that we are being hurt, that our rights are being violated, that our needs or wants are not being adequately met, or simply that something is not right. Our anger may tell us that we are not addressing an important emotional issue in our lives, or that too much of our self - our beliefs, values, desires, or ambitions - is being compromised in a relationship. Our anger may be a signal that we are doing more and giving more than we can comfortably do or give. Or our anger may warn us that others are doing too much for us, at the expense of our own competence and growth. Just as physical pain tells us to take our hand off the hot stove, the pain of our anger preserves the very integrity of our self. Our anger can motivate us to say "no" to the ways in which we are defined by others and "yes" to the dictates of our inner self.

Women, however, have long been discouraged from the awareness and forthright expression of anger. Sugar and spice are the ingredients from which we are made. We are the nurturers, the soothers, the peacemakers, and the steadiers of rocked boats. It is our job to please, protect, and placate the world. We may hold relationships in place as if our lives depended on it.

***End Quote


I believe one of the reasons this book helped me so much was because it was written with the expectation that the issues being addressed are being addressed by only one person in the relationship. I did not have to solicit Gary's cooperation, I needed nothing from Gary at all to implement the changes in our relationship.

Two people are dancing a waltz it doesn't matter who is leading if one person decides to do the mamba then the other person has to dance the waltz alone, leave the dance floor, or join in the new dance step. I agree with piglet - you must be willing to risk every thing you have in order to make these changes. It won't be fun and in the beginning it may even be very hard but for me it was well worth it - I am now a partner in my relationship.

We are taught to not rock the boat and many men claim to want "obedience" as mine did but when the rubber hit the road what Gary really wanted was an equal - he wanted a woman who was willing to draw a hard line and say enough of your crap. He especially hates it when I tell him - I won't be accepting responsibility for your emotions, attitudes or behavior today, You are grown and you are responsible for how you behave - but he needs to be reminded from time to time that he is responsible for him and his feelings are his to deal with.

Oh it wasn't easy I was alone in Gary's home town my family was 200 miles away - I had let my nursing license laps by ohh by about two years so I didn't even have my profession to fall l back on - even that didn't stop me. I worked at Wal-Mart unloading trucks to make enough money to get my nursing license reinstated - I was willing to walk through the coals of trail but I wasn't living in Gary's hell one second longer - it was the determined in your face woman Gary fell in love with - not the sweet compliant one he thought he wanted when he met me. The evening I finished this book I watched the sun setting, as a symbol of my resolve to change my own life. . I didn't give a damn if Gary stayed or left I didn't have the luxury of allowing him to change the coarse I had set. IN my mind my life was going to change one way or another - this was hmmm about late April early May 2004 no coincidence this correlated closely with my join date here . . .

There's a possible reason why guys have this emotional shutdown switch. If the chips are down it's us who are expected to go ito extremely risky situations to get food and we may even have to kill other human beings to feed and/or protect our family.

It is not really possible to do that and be very empathetic, loving and full of feelings.

Honey I'm home

Hello darling good day at work?

Yes, I fired John, Susan, Mark, Kate and Emily...they weren't performing well enough for me to hit my quarterly targets. I've bought you some flowers.

Darling I don't know another man as kind and considerate as you.

I try darling, it was hard to fire John with his wife being so ill after having her twins but it reduces my teams medical insurance bill significantly so I should get a bonus this month and I can whisk you away for a romantic weekend and have enough to take the kids to the Superbowl.

Darling you're such a wonderful husband.

continue ad nauseam......

Yup loving husband at home....ruthless ******* at work..... the perfect 21st century man

Hardly surprising many guys just can't square that circle.


Guys shutdown when it has to be done to fulfill the basic function of being a guy. The family needs to be fed and housed. for that money is required....so work has to be done...even if the guy knows the work is having a terrible toll on his health he will "deny" it and keep going to keep the money coming in.

In order to support the children he needs to have a partner to do the stuff he can't, be there when he can't and give the kids the female input that they need. So even if his partner isn't the person of his dreams and fantasies he will continue to do what needs to be done feed her and keep a roof over her head and keep his family "intact".

The problems start if after a period of shutdown the feelings and emotions "open up" in uncontrollable ways, which is where breakdowns, infidelity, aggression starts to occur.

Sometimes guys just get overwhelmed by being "responsible" for EVERYTHING.......

***************Warning***********************

Male openly voicing opinion.

Feminists or women with time to attend coffee mornings, gyms, country clubs etc on weekdays should stop reading now.

*******************************************

........except cleaning, cooking and childcare.....all jobs which when done by others aren't exactly regarded as the toughest jobs in the world requiring highly skilled highly paid professionals to do them. OK so they can be tedious, stressful and occasionally unpleasant, but show me a job that isn't.

Guys are supposed to be the breadwinner, deal with the bank, the garage, anything needing done to fix/improve the house, be a good lover (without any significant breaks in performance), attentive husband, wait till your father gets home ultimate sanction, defender of the family to the death, father figure, rough and tumble dad, figure of respect and authority, wise, knowledgable about football/cars/fishing/computers/house wiring/plumbing etc, outdoorsy, celibate for long periods if required, occasional unflinching punchbag for partner, forgiving of indiscretion, trusting, trustworthy......

Pressure....nah

************************************************** ****
Danger over

************************************************** ***

Meadds right....if a woman sets boundaries and gets out there to be an equal in the marriage that really gives a guy a serious surprise and for many it would be remove a considerable burden and mprove male mental health considerably....but not many women can really seriously do it LONG TERM...but I'd love to be proved wrong.

kilt

I work outside the home too. My husband is jealous of my job and any friend I have ever had. I don't have a glamorous job but I like the people I work with because they all have a positive attitude. My husband hates his job. I have begged him to look for something else for years but I think he is afraid to.

ADD is not your husbands problem....his problem appears to be a very culturally conservative mindset.

Life is not working according to his rules, and of course his rules are the "proper" rules.

Hence he does not know what to do....deep down he can see that his rules don't work but is in a state of mental conflict and cognitve dissonance trying to adjust his world view.

This process may result in rejection of the actual situation which causes irrational decisions and odd behaviours.

With therapy the world view can be changed and rational thought and decisionmaking establshed.

kilt

Kilt, that was a great post(the first one you did today), so true, so true! thank god I'm not married!

Really enjoyed reading it. keep on participating on the forum. Your insight and "humor" are greatly appreciated.

forgot...the last post was good as well! :)

Ahh geez I wondered how long it would take to get a few guys over here - I do not like stereo gender presentations at all really but some very good authors and ideas are presented in gender specific terms - these techniques described in "The Dance of Anger" will work for males as well as females. Matter of fact Gary picked up the techniques very rapidly and he never even touched the book - however when he changes his approach I have the same choices in dance steps he was faced with back in 2004.

Gee what would life be if it weren't for the challenges faced by the mirror image of ourselves we write in response to others.


Meadds right....if a woman sets boundaries and gets out there to be an equal in the marriage that really gives a guy a serious surprise and for many it would be remove a considerable burden and mprove male mental health considerably....but not many women can really seriously do it LONG TERM...but I'd love to be proved wrong.


I would love to prove you wrong - the distance may be a bit of problem though

I will help pay the bills and I will stand next to my man in a physical fight If a burglar breaks in a husband will not be the only one he will have to contend with - it is my home too.

I agree in the beginning I was not pulling my weight but I was told Gary wanted this kind of complaint women and I was trying to be some thing I was not - it was only when he pushed past the farced that he found the real me - he found the real angry me it took a lot of pain to cause the mask to crack and reveal who was really inside

There is a song by 3 doors down called "My World"

there is a portion that goes

"you are stuck inside this world you made yourself"

and aren't we all . . .men send conflicting signals. Like Gary you want this and look for that but when you have it you find you want these other things also. . . we can not all look like Greek goddesses cook like your mother and keep house like June Cleaver and fix the car win arm wrestling against you best buddy Bob and even up a fist fight - sorry guys life just doesn't work that way - we have our limitations just like you do.


want a strong woman????

Quit worshiping the pretty petite things who sit around in string bikinis looking seductive while filing their nails give credence to the strong women of ordinary physical appearance who has no problems standing up to you when you are being an a**!

Men want pretty petite obedient women who will adore him make him feel like a man - sorry buddy if you want a female that will go after a burglar with a base ball bat then you had better settle for a decently fit woman of ordinary appearance who will stay because she wants but reserve the right to tell you to eat a bug when you "command" her to do some thing totally stupid.


so like us you have to "pick your poison"

It isn't really hard at all, just follow the insanity with the bouncing ball .



except cleaning, cooking and childcare.....all jobs which when done by others aren't exactly regarded as the toughest jobs in the world requiring highly skilled highly paid professionals to do them. OK so they can be tedious, stressful and occasionally unpleasant, but show me a job that isn't.

Guys are supposed to be the breadwinner, deal with the bank, the garage, anything needing done to fix/improve the house, be a good lover (without any significant breaks in performance), attentive husband, wait till your father gets home ultimate sanction, defender of the family to the death, father figure, rough and tumble dad, figure of respect and authority, wise, knowledgable about football/cars/fishing/computers/house wiring/plumbing etc, outdoorsy, celibate for long periods if required, occasional unflinching punchbag for partner, forgiving of indiscretion, trusting, trustworthy......

Pressure....nah


Where can I find a man as described above I have failed to meet one yet. Let me give you a taste of my previous married life as a woman rearing children.

I have always had to hold down a job that would be 40+ hour a week, after my paid job I would do the unpaid one I got to cook, clean do the child care, home work, deal with the schools, insurance company, make sure bills get paid, and discipline unruly any thing ect so hubby {now ex-hubby} could come home from his day at work and veg in front of the tube until bed time - then wonder why I am not in the mood

Lets get real shall we?




I am married to a man who carries his own weight NOW - I married another ADHDer - so I put up with a little hoof in mouth syndrome - and I have more man a** in my way when I am trying to fix some thing than I can be civil about and what pops into brain comes out mouth but after three minutes we have forgotten we were fighting - - filling consist of piling papers in a brief case then when itis full they go into a laundry basket - taxes crap don't go there !!! Time the concept doesn't happen very well here the sun goes up the sun goes down the sun comes up again - we will work until we die but that is what we were designed to do - I give up orderly yep for some one who has a bit of motivation like me - we are stuck inside this world we made ourselves - yep my world is bigger than my problems and it's bigger than me - (http://www.dizzler.com/music/3_Doors_Down/My_World)

I work outside the home too. My husband is jealous of my job and any friend I have ever had. I don't have a glamorous job but I like the people I work with because they all have a positive attitude. My husband hates his job. I have begged him to look for something else for years but I think he is afraid to.


Whoa please do not take the blame for your husband behavior I am guessing he is an adult this makes him responsible for his own behavior




Any time a man tries to limit your connection to other people then a red flag should go up and an alarm should sound - you are possibly dealing with an abuser - a part from ADD yours or any one else's I did a google search "with holding affection, jealous of all others " (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADBF&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=withholding+affection,+jealous+of+all+others+&spell=1) doesn't bring up the rosy red picture of a man as described above by Kilted -

Two of the several sites offered on the first page.


Domestic Violence and Abuse (http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/cyps/families/domestic_violence/advavictim.htm)


Borderline Personality Disorder (http://lessonsinawareness.com/bpd.aspx)

Both with holding of affection and being overly jealous are signs of a manipulative partner - if this is a problem with the male species present then perhaps Google will be interested in your version of word usage and site linkage - perhaps consult a few psychologist and see if they buy this blaming of actions on others Maybe one of them will be interested in publishing a paper explaining how the behavior described by the member who wrote the initial post could possibly be a normal healthy reaction to a spouses needs.

The person who came here looking for help should not be made to feel blamed for her spouses behavior or attitudes - Grown ups are personally responsible for their actions period - any thing else is scrubbing the pigs - if you believe my reaction to be sexist (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=538943#post538943) then you are not very familiar with me.

There are several of you people belonging to each gender who need a thread of your own (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48438) so this subject of gender roles and frustrations will stop crashing discussions where people are looking for help.

interesting. I will leave it at that. Kilt, where are u?

In my view any man showing unjustified and excessive jealousy or attempting to control a womans social or professional development should be given a VERY wide berth. These are the guys most likely to attack their partner. In a relationship it's a big big warning sign that things could become violent.

It shows a high level of insecurity and insecure guys have high fight/flight reactions...unfortunately in a relationship the woman is unlikely to present a physical danger to the guy...so fight wins over flight.

Many people are naturally insecure and need alot of reassurance. This is difficult to do with conservative guys without acquiescing. Their insecurity combined with a strong cultural belief in the man being the boss in all things means that any movement towards independance by the woman is seen as a challenge to his, highly insecure, authority.
His automatic response is to attack/punish in some manner. He may physically attack, or "pull the temple down around him" by finding a way to destroy/hurt those in the relationship with him.

There can never be a winner in these situations......separation is the usual outcome, unless the insecure partner can sort themselves out......which is almost impossible if the belief is culturally entrenched.

If the following behaviours are being shown by a guy....

1) Unjustified jealousy and suspicion of any contact with another male
2) Excessive control, trying to control access to friends or social/professional groups
3) Attempts to limit a partners personal or professional development

combined with

1) verbal abuse or aggression/rage even if displaced/directed at a third party/object
2) verbal or physical aggression towards a partners associates/contacts/friends
3) "silent" rages

then the situation should be regarded as being high risk

kilt

Wonderful post Kilted - one of your best!

Thank you.


I agree that cultural beliefs do play a large part in determining how appropriate this type of behavior is in a relationship - as well as the possible meaning behind it.

Kilt, our forum resident "relationship expert"! :) Where did you gain all of this insight? your messsages are well written and concise. I'm jealous. I can tell you are "older" than most of the posters on this forum--not a bad thing. Older sometimes equals wiser. We need more of the older(40s/50s) crowd on the forum, to give everyone here more(wiser) advice, positive reinforcement, etc.

can tell you are "older" than most of the posters on this forum--not a bad thing. Older sometimes equals wiser. We need more of the older(40s/50s) crowd on the forum, to give everyone here more(wiser) advice, positive reinforcement, etc

Are ya feeling young yet Kilted? :p I know I do.

I wouldn't call Kilted "old" mature maybe well most times - older!!!!

It would be nice to have more members along in my age group ohhh how did you say it (40s/50s) crowd - yeah I would like that at least they would speak a slag I don't have to look up on google Older doesn't always mean more mature I have met some pretty bright young people on here also.

Well, we had a very long talk and made some progress. We will take it day by day plus we are seeing a marriage counselor.

Well, we had a very long talk and made some progress. We will take it day by day plus we are seeing a marriage counselor.


I am glad you are getting some out side help - some times it is necessary because when one is actually a part of the relationship it is hard to see the forest for the trees - so to speak.

from a guy.....
been there done that.
At the time I had no clue what was happening. I was just finishing an apprenticeship and writing the journeyman exam. We were newly married and living in an area where I couldn't even BUY a job in my trade. My wife earned enough to support us quite well. She liked the area we lived in.
Unless I missed it in the previous pages, nobody has addressed male behaviour when he is/feels threatened, real or imaginary.
I hide, crawl into a shell where it's safe. Where my "vulnerabilities" will not be seen. I become obsessed with my "failure" to the point I withdraw from EVERYONE and the family is likliest the first. My world has to be firm, comfortably predictable, I need a sense of control not necessarily over others, but my world, although this may radiate to people to satisfy my need to "do". I am useless, adrift, without a mission. I become dissatisfied with my performance at work, another stone on my shoulders because I "do". I don't share this because I am a man and I can "fix" this. I don't hold my wife because of my shame which I wear like scales and my insecurities ooze from every pore.
Sadly I can't. I am but a mere man who lives in a world where the words failure, lack of purpose, poor performance, inability to deal with it, can't etc, etc, etc, do not exist. I am my fathers son, a product of an era with well define expectations and roles and yes, I know what the word communicate means. I do it at work all the time. And of course I see people being open and honest with their partners and allowing them to see their fears. But that's not for me. The people at work do not see "me". they see an image and I play the "good morning Joe" game so well that they will never see inside me. No one must be allowed to do that.......
I finally fell in love with a woman that taught me so much about me.....

Ask him what's holding him back. This cannot go on forever.

we both started talking a lot more. He has sent me emails and leaving notes for me. It has meant t alot. He hugs me when I come home and kisses me. He says he never wants to be like before. I am almost afraid to trust too much because it hurt so much being ignored. We will get there.

Do you ever kiss, hug him?

That's awesome you guys worked it out. Sometimes guys need to be told straight up what a woman needs (I do anyway)

I'm glad for you.

kilt

the therapist thinks that we do not have enough in common to keep it together (our marriage)

the therapist thinks that we do not have enough in common to keep it together (our marriage)

Obviously I don't know everything your therapist knows, but my therapist told me that sometimes people with little in common make good matches because their personalities compliment each other. I certainly couldn't stand to be married to someone who was like me! I'd venture to say the same is true of my husband - two people that stubborn would be knocking heads all the time!

That being said, it is up to the two people to look for activities that they can share.

H Dixiepeep..

the therapist thinks that

EEEeesh dingalingaling ...... therapist alert.....therapists should not give such an opinion.

If this is REALLY what the therapist said be concerned. A good therapist should not make such a statement.... therapy is about getting you (and your partner if it's couple counselling) to look at your situation by ASKING QUESTIONS and getting you to think and formulate responses to get you to assess your own situation....

A therapist should NOT put their own opinions forward as they are very likely to lodge in the patients head and stick there...as appears to have happened.

So .. rewind and try to remember EXACTLY how the therapist phrased their opinion...

you may well find it was a question that you have misread into a statement

"Maybe you do not have enough in common?"

"Have you thought that you don't have alot in common?"

etc......

These are questions to make you think about how much you have in common.....not a statement that the therapist thinks you do not have alot in common and that you should split.

so question or statement....whichever one it has triggered an assessment in your mind....and that is good..... as long as you don't give any weight to your assumptions about the therapists opinion of your need for common ground in relationships.

Therapy is about increasing self awareness.....not paying for someone to give their opinion about what to do.

kilt

Kilted, I love to read your posts.

It would be nice if when the man comes home from a hard day of bloodletting at work, he realized that his woman very likely had exactly the same kind of day.

My experience has indicated that men, left to their own devices, will tend to focus on their career stresses and finances and other externally measurable indicators and ignore less objectively measurable, quality of life factors. Like their lives together are alllllll about his day at work, day after day after day...

I love Kilted's posts, too.

Yeah, that line from the counselor is a red flag for me, too.

I can't recall if I've ever mentioned the website that really helped my hubby and me after he had an emotional affair with a young hottie. It's:

www.marriagebuilders.com (http://www.marriagebuilders.com)

I can't recommend it highly enough for its practical, non touchy-feely, nuts and bolts approach to "marriage repair." It doesn't try to convert men (who, like Clipper [WHAT A GREAT POST, CLIPPER] have all sorts of internal turmoil that often doesn't even get words attached to it, all sorts of pains and failings and pressures to PERFORM, in all sorts of ways) into women. It lets them be men, but learn to speak women's language, and encourages women to learn to speak theirs. So many books, etc. regarding marriages focus on conversation, etc., things that are just not men's fortes and not easy for them to learn, and then they ignore things that help men feel loved.

Anyway, if I'm repeating myself, I apologize. I found that site extremely helpful, tons of free stuff on there, including a list of activities that married couples can consider taking up together to spend more quality time together, etc., and it's very accessible to men. My hubby actually kind of enjoyed some of the questionnaires and check-lists, etc. It's a Christian site, btw, just so you know. I'm not Christian and don't generally find I can relate well to overtly religious material. This site did not bother me a bit.

Good luck. Glad things are improving. Not so sure re: that counselor.... Hmmmmmmmmm.

Sandy