Have you decided not to have kids because of the possibility of passing on your condition (genetically)? Or maybe out of fear of being a poor parent?

Not me. I've never considered the fear of passing off anything genetically, because there is no way to control something like that. Poor parent? Yeah, I guess so, but only because I was too immature for the responsibility. I'm maturing though, and am certainly a work in progress. ;)

The main reason that I haven't had kids is because I spent most of my adult years enjoy the party life a little too much. You might say that I was enjoying life a bit too much. :o

Now that I am not enjoying that lifestyle like I used to, I am presently consumed with academia trying to be able to move on and get an advanced degree after I finish with my undergraduate. I'm currently a full time senior.

I happen to love kids, and my nieces and nephews are quite fond of me, and I would consider myself truly blessed to be able to be a father someday. However, I feel no pressure to fill that role. I trust that most everything, if not everything happens for a reason. Sometimes those reasons are understandable, and usually they are not. The good news is that I don't have to understand everything, however I do have to find a way to come to terms with everything, and by trusting in the concept of things happening for a reason, I allow myself to believe in something so much larger than me, or my life, or my planet, etc., etc.

Anyhoot, sorry to ramble on and on. :o

No, I'm just too impatient and selfish...I realize these things...plus most kids....I want em to go home when I'm tired of playing and stuff....if they were mine they would be home and i'd have no break.

No, I'm just too impatient and selfish...I realize these things...plus most kids....I want em to go home when I'm tired of playing and stuff....if they were mine they would be home and i'd have no break.

I don't think it's selfish to not want kids. That's like saying it's selfish to ride a bike instead of driving an Escalade or Hummer.

For me personally, having kids is selfish. I don't think I could live with myself if I chose put someone else through what I've been through with these conditions.

I trust that most everything, if not everything happens for a reason. Sometimes those reasons are understandable, and usually they are not. The good news is that I don't have to understand everything, however I do have to find a way to come to terms with everything, and by trusting in the concept of things happening for a reason, I allow myself to believe in something so much larger than me, or my life, or my planet, etc., etc.
:o

Yeah, my reasons are natural selection and gravity. Those are pretty harsh judges. For some reason natural selection didn't eliminate us ADDers- yet.

Have you decided not to have kids because of the possibility of passing on your condition (genetically)? Or maybe out of fear of being a poor parent?

I'm living with the hell of realizing that I was(am) a poor parent right now. I never considered how ADD affected my home life until a couple of months ago when my wife left me, taking my stepson with her. She thinks that I'm trying to get close to my stepson in order to get her back now, when the reality is that I'm medicated now and am trying to be the parent to him that I wanted to be all along and wasn't aware that I was not being.

I'm living with the hell of realizing that I was(am) a poor parent right now. I never considered how ADD affected my home life until a couple of months ago when my wife left me, taking my stepson with her. She thinks that I'm trying to get close to my stepson in order to get her back now, when the reality is that I'm medicated now and am trying to be the parent to him that I wanted to be all along and wasn't aware that I was not being.

Ouch. Was it just an issue of not spending time with him? Of course he's your stepson so that puts you at a disadvantage. I wish you the best in your efforts to reconcile.

For some reason natural selection didn't eliminate us ADDers- yet.
Wow, I feel that I look at this in a completely different light than yourself.

I feel that for some reason natural selection didn't eliminate the non ADDers-yet. I guess it just boils down to personal philosophy I guess, and I base much of how I feel about this particular issue on the whole "Hunter in a Farmers World" theory that I first read in the book "ADD a Different Perception." If you are not familiar with that analogy/theory I highly suggest doing a search on the "search" button here at the forums, or perhaps even a Google search to read what I am referring to.

That is the book that allowed me to finally get properly diagnosed after so many years of going nowhere with one Dr to the next. Before reading that book I was at a loss as to explain what it was really like for me. I was 22 at the time when I read that book, and it was then that I realized that there is no "deficit" in this condition (other than in name). It essentially boils down to a persons ability to understand their strengths (which we all have some), and to capitalize on their strengths while living in a farmers world. ;)

Yes, I have read Thom Hartmann. I think he makes some interesting points, but that does not change the fact that ADHD and especially ADHD-PI can be a major disadvantage in the modern world. Color blindness may not be as severe as ADD, but it can serve as an analogy.

Long ago, color blind males may have been better hunters, because while they don't distinguish red/green very well, some research has indicated that they may perceive different shades of brown/khaki (which are the dominant prey colors) better than non cb people. That was in the era before grocery stores and traffic lights. Now color blindness is just an inconvenience.

Look at it this way, if ADHD were as advantageous as Hartmann tries to claim, why is it present in only a small percentage of the population? The time for H&G's is long past. As an anthropology grad, I can tell you with great sadness that the few remaining tribes are rapidly disappearing.

I appreciate what Hartmann is trying to do for our self esteem, but I don't see any convincing evidence for the claim that ADHD is a good thing. A lot of people go around making spurious claims that this or that genius had ADHD (Einstein, Edison, Mozart, Leonardo, take your pick). There is no convincing proof for these claims, and yet the prisons are filling up with people battling ADHD and related conditions. In any case, ADHD has been a disaster for me personally (and I was long past 22 when I learned of it). It could have been much worse I suppose, I could have gotten involved in crime or drug addiction. That doesn't mean I'm giving up on myself (quite the contrary) it just means I'm trying to be a realist about life.

For some reason natural selection didn't eliminate us ADDers- yet.

Why would natural selection eliminate ADDers seeing that ADDers do not have a problem reproducing.



I feel that for some reason natural selection didn't eliminate the non ADDers-yet.

LOL - lars I am with you on this one. . . I saw it much the same way.



Or maybe out of fear of being a poor parent?


There is no law saying ADDers are poor parents - many ADDers are fun parents and give thier children pleantly of love and attention.

Look at it this way, if ADHD were as advantageous as Hartmann tries to claim, why is it present in only a small percentage of the population? The time for H&G's is long past. As an anthropology grad, I can tell you with great sadness that the few remaining tribes are rapidly disappearing.

The percentage of ADD is guesstimated at about 3-5% which is far more than what would be expected in a genetic fluke? I am sure you can appreciate this.






Yes, I have read Thom Hartmann. I think he makes some interesting points, but that does not change the fact that ADHD and especially ADHD-PI can be a major disadvantage in the modern world


Some how ADHD-PI has it's own brand of suffering?





For me personally, having kids is selfish. I don't think I could live with myself if I chose put someone else through what I've been through with these conditions

I doubt the human race is going to be extinct because a few people decide not to have children for what ever reason they choose -so if children are not right for you then I support this decision 100%.

However it may be worth noting that just because your children genetically have the same conditions as yourself doesn't mean their experiences will be the same - for one thing they will only display some of your traits and these traits will be mixed in with another person of the oppose sexes genetic traits.

Then one must also consider nature is only half the equation. . . .nurture being the other half. Therefore their chances of having an identical experience is nil. . . but hey there are already plenty of people on the planet so if you do not feel you should reproduce then by all means this should be respected.

We had a few friends round recently and I stunned them to silence when the question was put "Would you have kids if you knew what it would be like" and I answered "No". Everyone else was a definate "Yes"

The reasons.....I was far happier and my ADD wasn't such a big deal. If I got bored with life I could just move on somewhere else and I only had myself to worry about.

I'd say there's a difference between guy ADDers and girl ADDers though. When kids come along it's acceptable for the women to lose it slightly...even if it goes as far as post natal depression....but for guys .... well a few pats on the back and it's back to work....only now if you screw up you've hungry kids and a ****ed off wife back at the ranch.

Any troubles coping with ADD and kids.....if you're a guy you're on your own.....don't expect any help from the health system bar a few pills if you're very lucky.....and your wife...well she's up to her eyes in babies and becoming a volcano of suppressed rage so don't expect understanding there either....more likely a missing suitcase and a note saying she's gone to her mothers with the kids.

No matter how well you are coping with your ADD kids can really really screw things up...and if you were coping well with your ADD the chances are that everyone around you will not understand the reasons for the change in you.

It took about 12 months of 2 kids to convert me from a reasonably functioning member of the human race to a pile of mental jelly. I couldn't function either at work or at home and my marriage came within an ace of collapsing. I am fortunate I married a fantastically kind and stoic woman.....but even now when our youngest is 7 she is still considering separation and the emotional baggage we carry may never leave us.

I haven't been able to hold down a job for years......and when push comes to shove that is the main purpose of the bloke in a conventional family.......to go to work to make the money to put food on the table and trainers on the feet. Even in this emancipated and egalitarian age many women would be aghast at the thought of being the main breadwinner in a family...they're usually Ok about it on a temporary basis...but full on till retirement.....hmmm just watch them cast around for a new partner...and take the kids with them when they go.

Sorry for venting a bit...but it's a subject I feel quite strongly about.

kilt

I don't want kids. It's hard enough to manage my own life. With medication and lifestyle adjustments (i.e. keeping stress and responsibilities to a minimum, exercise, etc.) I'm able to make a living and do a pretty good job of taking care of myself. It's often a real drain, though.

I simply couldn't raise kids and have enough energy left to work! And as scatterred as I am, a house large enough for a family of 3 would be basically impossible to maintain for me. Plus, in order to have a wife stay at home to raise kids, maintain the house, etc, in my part of the country would require me to make a MINIMUM of $150k+ just to put food on the table and live VERY modestly! And that would require me to do without vacations, dinners out, decent cars, etc. I like nice things and just don't want to completely deprive myself.

There's also no guarantee that ADD (or anything else) will be passed on. Imagine how surprised I was to discover that my NT self now has a ADHD/Asperger's son. ;) Apparently there's something in my genetic mix that passed that one on. NT people have ADDer babies all the time.

Everyone has, or doesn't have, kids for their own reasons. It's your decision, and your reasons.

I wasn't say it's selfish to not want kids...I'm saying I'm too selfish to have kids....I don't want to sacrafice of myself so they can have....I don't think it's selfish to not want kids. That's like saying it's selfish to ride a bike instead of driving an Escalade or Hummer.

For me personally, having kids is selfish. I don't think I could live with myself if I chose put someone else through what I've been through with these conditions.

I'm going to have to agree with the Kilted Scotsman on this one...I'm not married and sometimes I feel, at my age, a bit depressed becasue of this...BUT, on the other hand, I read a message like his, and I'm thinking to myself, maybe it is really the best thing that I'm not married. I, like him, cannot hold down a job. If I had a child(or a couple) and a wife, boy it would be a total disaster. Thanks for the reality check, Kilt!

btw, I feel for you in your situation. The ADD issues you have must REALLY be exasperated with a family!

Aha... I knew this question would stimulate lots of discussion and controversy :eek: One thing I want to make clear is that I would never approve of people being coerced into having or not having children based on whatever genes they may carry. I just think it's a personal moral choice.

Why would natural selection eliminate ADDers seeing that ADDers do not have a problem reproducing.

I wasn't saying that natural selection would necessarily eliminate us, just that it didn't. It didn't eliminate ALS or hemophilia either. That doesn't mean that people afflicted by those conditions don't suffer. If you knew your kid would have ALS, would you have one? Granted, it's a much more difficult condition than ADD, and there are those who will say, what about Lou Gehrig and Steven Hawking, they wouldn't have been born had people thought like this, but my response is that they were already born, so this question doesn't apply to them (sorry about run on sentences, but this is just an add forum after all).

There is no law saying ADDers are poor parents - many ADDers are fun parents and give thier children pleantly of love and attention.

I wasn't suggesting that ADDers had to be bad parents. I was trying to ask about the fear of being a bad parent and how it affected people's decision to have kids. It's sometimes difficult to get my point across because I say things that aren't too specific and are open to interpretation. Sorry about that!

The percentage of ADD is guesstimated at about 3-5% which is far more than what would be expected in a genetic fluke? I am sure you can appreciate this.

Yes, that is true. There may have been some adaptive benefits in the past, but we are less than 200 years into the industrial era and around 60 years into the information era, and I think ADD is less adaptive nowadays than it may have been in the past.

Some how ADHD-PI has it's own brand of suffering?

I think hyperactives are more positive, because they have all this energy and often possess outgoing personalities. They seem to get more done, and are less easily discouraged. They also get more attention in school due to "acting out", whereas inattentives are often ignored or unrecognized. Most of the people who go around saying how wonderful it is to have ADD seem to me to be hyperactive types rather than inattentive types.

I doubt the human race is going to be extinct because a few people decide not to have children for what ever reason they choose -so if children are not right for you then I support this decision 100%.

The human race is not going to be extinct anytime soon. Even if 99% of people die off in some horrid environmental catastrophe, humans and roaches will likely find ways to survive. That doesn't mean life will be peachy though.

However it may be worth noting that just because your children genetically have the same conditions as yourself doesn't mean their experiences will be the same - for one thing they will only display some of your traits and these traits will be mixed in with another person of the oppose sexes genetic traits.

True. I guess I'm so down on the whole experience that I just don't want to take that chance.

Then one must also consider nature is only half the equation. . . .nurture being the other half. Therefore their chances of having an identical experience is nil. . . but hey there are already plenty of people on the planet so if you do not feel you should reproduce then by all means this should be respected.

One advantage that adders have nowadays is that they will likely be diagnosed and treated in childhood. In addition, an adder parent might be better for an adder child b/c they will probably take extra care to help the child compensate for any deficiencies. I think I'd be a good parent because I care a lot and would be willing to put my own concerns aside for the sake of a child, but I'd hate for my kid to go through so many failures and negative experiences due to having ADHD.

I haven't been able to hold down a job for years......and when push comes to shove that is the main purpose of the bloke in a conventional family.......to go to work to make the money to put food on the table and trainers on the feet. Even in this emancipated and egalitarian age many women would be aghast at the thought of being the main breadwinner in a family...they're usually Ok about it on a temporary basis...but full on till retirement.....hmmm just watch them cast around for a new partner...and take the kids with them when they go.

Sorry for venting a bit...but it's a subject I feel quite strongly about.

kilt

Kilt, you are a very intelligent person, is it really that hard to get jobs in the UK? I kind of regret having left my last position to try and re educate myself and make a career change, but I'm sure I will find work soon (not necessarily the work I planned to get).

I don't have kids mostly cause I don't feel ready. I mean I have a hard time keeping up with my animals let alone a baby. The house is a disaster now, imagine if I had a lil kid running around, we would need an intervention at some point.
Plus children tend to annoy me.
I hate it when people show me there baby pics cause it take all my energy to smile and say they look cute when my mind is screaming the complete opposite.
Whats odd is children love me. I have been at parties where small children are present and they cling to me.
I don't hate children, I just don't like most.
I also have this feeling that if I had a child I would get really depressed and stressed out. Being at home alone a lot with no one to talk to, and nothing but house work and baby diapers to change. I need me time but not that much.
now I'm just rambling....ill stop.
ohh...If anything I would be more worried about my hubby passing on some of his genes then me. He had a growth hormone deficiency when he was small..and without shots every night for like 5 years he would be about 4ft tall, his brother also was deficient although not as much as he was. Now that is expensive. Costs something like 500.00 a month for the shots....

Hi dyingInside

Thanks for the compliment...but getting and holding a job isn't about intelligence. In fact too much intelligence can be a bit of a hindrance.

I've always worked with people, doing fun things, completely immersed in the job, moving on when something more interesting came along. That just doesn't suit family life.

Don't get me wrong...I love my kids and they're a fantastic pair of well adjusted and likeable children.....and maybe that's a big chunk of my problem....I hate leaving them for any length of time and know thats what having a job entails.

Holding down a job with ADD takes every ounce of my energy...leaving nothing for my family.

so intelligence has nothing to do with it......i just don't have the energy to work to the standard I want to and be a father and a be husband.

This is the sort of thing that I find most debilitating about ADD and family life. I never knew that I had such a problem until I had to do two jobs at the same time.....be a man and be a worker.

kilt

I used to think the same way as many here, "no kids for me..ever"..thinking it would be irresponsible to bring another life into this miserable, decaying world - but it really just boiled down to the fact that I had no desire to have a child.

Things changed in my 30's, and six years into my marriage, I couldn't escape the desperate desire to have a child. I didn't worry much about passing along my own "issues" because I was in a good place and had a strong and sensible husband to make up for any of my weaknesses. I also have to admit that I had the naive ideas that "love would conquer all" and that I would instinctually know how to parent. Mind you - I had no clue about ADHD at the time, but had suffered from depression and anxiety all my life.

Well, it turns out that "all you need is love" only works in the movies, and I've found parenting to be difficult and baffling. Of course, I have a difficult and baffling son - now 6 - who has ADHD of the non-stop hyperactive variety. It wasn't until he was diagnosed that I began to see the symptoms of ADHD in myself and realize that so many of the difficulties in my life could now be explained.

Despite all of this, I've never been sorry for having him. I've been sorry for my failings as a parent, but sometimes I think I'm too hard on myself. Yes, I have some limitations (don't we all?). I have never been able to provide a structured environment for my son, because I can't even structure my own day. I'm always doing a million things at once, and sometimes I wish I had left more time for him. But I always hug him several times a day and tell him I love him, and read to him, and teach him how things work, and not all kids have that....I sure didn't.

Is it unfair to have brought him into this world with ADHD? I have to agree with those that have said that being ADHD doesn't mean there's something wrong with us - we just function differently. I am an artist. I've never admitted it before, but I believe that I feel and see and smell and experience the world more deeply than most. Why? don't know. Sometimes it's painful - even beauty hurts - but sometimes it's wonderful. I'd never give it up. My son is a deep thinker, extremely intelligent and overly-sensitive as well. He's danced to music since he was 6 months old, and is now playing several different instruments at 6 years. But he cannot remember what he had for lunch or did in school today. Is he cursed? Or is he blessed? Or is he just different?

I agree with Cameron, that Kilted Scotsman provides a good reality check on this issue. I too am a bit depressed about being single in my mid-thirties, but when the realities of day to day marriage life is being discussed honestly it sounds exhausting. I'm not sure if I could handle being married with a wife, kids, and all those responsibilities.

Braka, you sound a bit like me in terms of being single and thinking you might want to settle down, get married, etc. I used to be a bit obsessed with getting married and thinking I wanted children. Now, not so much. Maybe its because of all the frustration I have experienced with dating(also with jobs, most women don't want to be with a guy who is unstable), I don't know. I used to also think that I was a really good "catch", well maybe not so much anymore. They say that some people are just not cut out for; marriage, relationship, etc...maybe I'm in this category. Its looking more and more likely. As each year passes in your 30s, it gets tougher meeting woman for a quality long-term relationship. It does get frustrating when you are spending most of your evenings by yourself.

id lay off for now on haveing kids but you carnt lert the unknow stiop you as it might not be genes it might be something eles i think in the next 7/10years we will know for shore

dorm

as of right now, I'm not planning on having kids because i'm so exhausted by the time I get home from work that I can hardly take care of myself. Plus, I enjoy playing w/ my best friend's toddler, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE giving her back!!

I don't say I'll "never have kids" because I might change my mind, but as of right now, i don't see kids in my future.

I'd be a liar if I didn't say that passing on depression to my (perhaps future) kids is scary, I wouldn't want him/her to go through what I have with that (with ADHD - it hasn't been a horrible disorder for me, so passing that one on doesn't bother me). However, the possibility of passing on depression is not my main reason for not having kids, but that thought is there.

Aha... I knew this question would stimulate lots of discussion and controversy

Which is the best reason for posting it I think. I have always been under the impression most people begin a thread to open a discussion with other members. Controversy isn't necessarily a bad thing - most decent discussions have a bit of controversy otherwise we don't have much to discuss. {IMHO}

Opposing opinions don't bother me - I expect them every time I post - in all honesty I welcome a different perspective because if we all thought a like how boring life would be.


The human race is not going to be extinct anytime soon. Even if 99% of people die off in some horrid environmental catastrophe, humans and roaches will likely find ways to survive. That doesn't mean life will be peachy though.


Love the presentation - but who said life was peachy right now.

Suffering to a certian degree unfortunantly is a natural part of living and breathing - some do more suffering than others of this I agree.


It didn't eliminate ALS or hemophilia either. That doesn't mean that people afflicted by those conditions don't suffer.

I agree that these conditions do cause suffering they are not as common as ADD is plus they are more likely to be umm fatal!

Although genetic (http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/hemophilia/hemophilia_what.html) -
About 18,000 people in the United States have hemophilia

ALS is degenerative in nature (http://www.alsa.org/als/genetics.cfm?CFID=5508104&CFTOKEN=281146a-d386b63d-a455-4c56-af95-5f859999510b)

No family history is found in 90% of ALS cases - only a small percentage of people who get adult onset ALS will have first degree family members.

{End Quote}

ADD is more likely to be a genetic diversity than either of these mentioned conditions -

The question is about the decision to reproduce based upon - A) the possibility of genetically passing ADD / depression to our off spring B) being unable to provide for our children due to the ADD's effect upon us.

My response was presented to help this point be seen it is proper perspective - and to get some much needed mental exercise.



One thing I want to make clear is that I would never approve of people being coerced into having or not having children based on whatever genes they may carry. I just think it's a personal moral choice.


You are an intelligent person who is able to provide a decent rebuttal to my challenges without going into some emotional tail spin I highly value this quality.

On this very important point I am in 100% agreement with you - I believe the choice weather or not to have children should be an individual one. Further more what ever choice is made by the individual should be respected by all . . . I have known too many people who have chosen not to have children that had to face social persecution and pressure from their families - which isn't right.

think hyperactives are more positive, because they have all this energy and often possess outgoing personalities.

I agree with you but this doesn't mean our lives are any easier nor does it mean our brand of ADD presents less obstacles.

One of the reason I believe you are seeing this very accurate observation is because those of us who are hyperactive or combined with a hyperactive component are less likely to suffer from depression -



Children (http://www.add.org/articles/SimilaritiesandDifferencesBetweenADHDSubtypes.html ) in the different groups did not differ in how often they were diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. Children with the combined type or inattentive type were more likely to be depressed than children with the hyperactive/impulsive subtype.
{End Quote}

however it has been found that physical exercise relieves many of the symptoms of depression -


Mental health experts (http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=20030101-000001&page=1) are carefully building a scientific dossier on exercise as therapy for depression. Already, mounting evidence indicates that regular activity combats depression on many fronts:

Animal studies show that exercise alters neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine in the brain's frontal cortex and the hippocampus, both involved in circuits of emotion; the changes are similar to those produced by antidepressants.

It appears to stimulate the vagus nerve, improving function of the brain's emotion-sensing network as well as of the heart. The vagus nerve is increasingly recognized as an important pathway of depression.

By acting on neurohormones that govern the stress response, exercise seems to improve the ability of the body to tolerate stress and to meet changing demands. A dysregulated stress response, perhaps stemming from early psychological trauma, is implicated as a cause of depression.

Exercise has definite cognitive effects; it changes people's perception of themselves, providing a sense of personal mastery and positive self-regard. It also reduces negative thinking.

Exercise keeps on working, making it especially promising for preventing depression recurrences. People who continue to exercise have continuing reductions in symptoms.
{End Quote}


Perhaps this is a clue - why the more hyperactive people have a better mood over all - it isn't that our ADD itself isn't equally as difficult but it could be we are less likely to experience coexisting depression because our high physical activity level act as a protective factor.


Even in this emancipated and egalitarian age many women would be aghast at the thought of being the main breadwinner in a family...they're usually Ok about it on a temporary basis...but full on till retirement.....hmmm just watch them cast around for a new partner...and take the kids with them when they go.

Sorry for venting a bit...but it's a subject I feel quite strongly about.


The man who likes much stimuli - hope that includes mental as well as physical


Away we go . . . . .


SINGLE PARENT FAMILIES – DEMOGRAPHICS (http://www.pobronson.com/factbook/pages/43.html)



12 percent of U.S. family households are female-maintained with no husband present. That hasn't changed for the past 15 years. .



Four percent of U.S. family households are male-maintained with no wife present – a one percent increase since 1990.

From 1970 to 2000, both the number of male-maintained family households and female-maintained family households both with no spouse present increased, but the number of single-mother households was more than double that of male-headed single parent households

83 percent of Australian lone parents in 2001 were female (635,100) compared to 17 percent male (127,500).

One in four U.K. children lived in lone-parent families in 2004. That is more than triple the percent in 1972, when just one in 17 children lived in a lone-parent family

{End Quote}

~All bold and underlining in source material mine~

Responded as the member who began the thread did respond to your rabbit trail meaning it can be rebuffed in same thread -

I hold no emotional attachments nor is this personal however in the global scheme of things I believe your presentation is missing a few minor details here and there - This is a warm up and I can continue however probably shouldn't in this thread least we drive it off topic which isn't polite.

Enjoy . . . .:)