Mods, if this is not the appropriate place for this post, I am sorry .. I could not find a better one. Feel free to move it if I overlooked it.

Hi all. I would appreciate your advise and thoughts.

I am quite active on another ADD forum in the Netherlands. That's where I am from despite that I (still) live in Canada. Dutch is my first language and when I found out that I had ADD my first source of recognition and information was that forum. I love it in there and made a lot of great contacts, and soon I was asked to become a moderator.

I love it to be able to help out newcomers and to try and make sense of the loads of information about ADD that is out there, sometimes translating articles in Dutch for the ones that are not fluent in English. But it has been more than just that to me. It was the first place ever where I felt genuinely understood and where I immediately felt what others meant to say. It really feels like a homecoming, and some real friendships have started to grow.

One of the things that I feel really strong about is skepticism. I have a real problem with quacks, crackpots and such, and the thing is that I cannot shut up when being confronted with it. I am usually really quiet and shy (as you'd expect from a PI) but in these cases I just *must* speak out because it would feel immoral not to. I am really passionate about it.

What happened is that the Dutch Wikipedia page about ADD turned out to be - how to put this - biased in a very specific direction. All the external links were pointing to one particular website, owned by someone who practices orthomolecular therapy and neurofeedback to treat ADD and claims to thus be able to *cure* ADD, ADHD and ***; needless to say the website is anti-medication as well.
The content of the Wikipedia page was similarly biased.

I am, together with another Dutch ADD-er, in the process of slowly trying to balance that Wikipedia page a bit more.

But I was really quite upset that one person basically hijacks a Wikipedia page to advertise his/her business.

Shortly afterwards, someone on that Dutch ADD forum made a mention of that particular website. I mentioned in that thread what I had found out about that Wikipedia page and did some research on orthomolecular therapy - and added that. It came down to "watch out, this website/person is offering diagnostic and treatment methods that are not recognized as valid by the scientific medical community and furthermore, the Wikipedia ADD page is biased to reflect this person's viewpoint on treatment of ADD and medication and only carries (although we now changed that) links to that person's website".

Subsequently, an emotional discussion flared up. There were some people that were really upset by my skepticism: one actually proposed we remove the entire thread because "it might damage the business of that person". Another person stated that "psychiatry does not help anyone either". And why was I so pro-medication. Yet another one accused me of making science into a religion. Others supported me.

Then the person that owns that website joined in - apparently also being a member of that forum and being notified by someone - and demanded that we remove the topic within 24 hours or else s/he would sue us for slandering his/her name.

I spoke with the woman who runs the forum and she asked me to remove the thread because she really was afraid that he might carry out his threat. I complied because I do not want to give her trouble.

This has upset me a lot. Maybe I should not voice my opinion if I do not have the elephant skin to deal with attacks from people who do not agree .. but the debate was at one point so much more emotional than I had anticipated, so much more "ad hominem". The result is that I am really wondering if I can still feel at home there at all.
But that would be so sad, because there are a lot of people in there that I value and even love.
I just don't know if I do something wrong here. But maybe I do.

Oh no.. sounds so unpleasant.

It's troubling that, over and over, the "alternative" viewpoints end up being the most militant of all.

I think it's very good to explore all that you can about yourself and your therapeutic approaches. But it seems like there's so little room for common sense in all of this.. like you have to pick your cult and defend it against all others. It's really sad.

fwiw, I would have removed the thread too. There's no point in arguing with lunatics -- and the only ones who have to lose are the ones who would have to gain from hearing a balanced pov. They aren't the ones who will speak up and cause a giant stink, they're the ones who actually accept that we don't know everything and actually want to hear endorsements and criticisms alike. Skepticism is a very, very good thing, imo, and those who subscribe to a particular dogma aren't going to be convinced otherwise by rationality. That's how you get straight-faced endorsements of such cures as electroshock therapy and colonic irrigation. And that's how potentially helpful things like nutrition, exercise, even sprituality get stuck in the nutjob box.

It really sucks that you have to deal with being so "controversial." But it's as important as it is difficult to be the one who voices that which will be of any real help to anyone. Guess as a mod you do need to swallow a few.

~ heya ~

These guys hide behind Linus Pauling.
Without reading up over 'orthomolecular' - Pauling probably noticed that when he caught a cold - he developed a strong desire to drink orange juice.

So ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidative_stress

1.Oxidative stress is bad
caused by an imbalance between the production of reactive oxygen and a biological system's ability to readily detoxify the reactive intermediates or easily repair the resulting damage.

2.All forms of life maintain a reducing environment within their cells ... ... ...
. This reducing environment is preserved by enzymes that maintain the reduced state through a constant input of metabolic energy.

3.Disturbances in this normal redox state can cause toxic effects ... ... ...
which is where vitamin C comes in ->-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
The pharmacophore of vitamin C is the ascorbate ion. In living organisms, ascorbate is an antioxidant, as it protects the body against oxidative stress ...
Because
It [vitamin C] is made internally by almost all organisms, humans being one notable exception.

it's importance is underlined (as nutrient) -
and it's easy to see why Pauling would have become attracted to the idea of his specialist subject [chemistry] -in association with- {health,longevity} ... ...
- to put even more back into society
- a great aspiration - though care must be taken ... since scientific credibility can bring discredit where credit exists
(for instance Einstein versus Bohr in the 'unertainty' 20's)

Linus Pauling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling
was a good man - who contributed greatly.

1962 Nobel Peace Prize

These people are fools
orthomolecular . org / (http://orthomolecular.org/index.shtml)

~eg~ click number 1 from a google search

http://orthomolecular.org/pics/nutrient_txt.jpg

please no !!! ; please nooo !!!

The sky is blue,
therefore
my favourite colour is therefore puce.

... ... such ignorance hiding behind unquestionable greatness
1954 Nobel Prize in Chemistry

I don't like these type$ of people -
- misrepresenting a great name

please :-)
feel free to reference this post on your other site
- and to invite whoever it is that is being rude to you
- to come here for 'science test'.

So - here's a very very gentle question 1

-Q1-
(a)What is your underlying reason for separating 'fats' and 'oils' in the statement above -?-
- the answer must describe the biochemical (since you are $elling ortho molecular treatment) difference between 'fats' and 'oils' -
- as in separation based on 'structural organic chemical' argument -
- ok (not really - but fair enough)
so ... ... ...
(b)What is the difference between simple and complex carbohydrates -?-

:-)

Firstly I would like to say there s absolutely nothing wrong with skepticism, it can stop whats happened on your wiki site from happening.

Maybe you should try contacting wiki about this? give them sound facts from multiple references.

Don't worry about him suing you for slander, that is absolutely impossible, by very definition slander is spoken, not typed :)

the people that speak out the most are probably trying to cling to the hope that they can be cured by this message, it's quite sad to see people react in such ways because it shows how bad a time they must be having.

Unfortunately things like this are to be expected, many "cures" for diseases and impairments are advertised but not many deliver, as i said you should make a stink about this, doing such a thing will protect others, I applaud your efforts.

I have no idea..but I lost 30kg cutting out carbs ;-)

It really sucks that you have to deal with being so "controversial." But it's as important as it is difficult to be the one who voices that which will be of any real help to anyone. Guess as a mod you do need to swallow a few.

thanks all.

Maybe I should conclude that I am not made out to be a mod. I need to figure out a couple of things that become increasingly clear after the diagnosis. The one that is maybe bothering me here is that there seems to be an unbalance within me. I mean, that half of me wants to stand and reason and be strong about it while the other half is so incredibly hurt and wants to run away. This hurts a great deal more than it should (and with "should" I mean what I gauge from others, not necessarily what I think I should or shouldn't feel). There seems to be an emotional vulnerability that manifests itself as a "need to please", but is also at least partly a genuine love of people and a lot of empathy.
I don't know, but sometimes I wonder if this comes from the (social) anxiety that I've had since I was a kid. It feels sort of immature and it worries me in situations like this.

Lot to think about.

What happened is that the Dutch Wikipedia page about ADD turned out to be - how to put this - biased in a very specific direction. All the external links were pointing to one particular website, owned by someone who practices orthomolecular therapy and neurofeedback to treat ADD and claims to thus be able to *cure* ADD, ADHD and ***; needless to say the website is anti-medication as well.
The content of the Wikipedia page was similarly biased.

I am, together with another Dutch ADD-er, in the process of slowly trying to balance that Wikipedia page a bit more.

But I was really quite upset that one person basically hijacks a Wikipedia page to advertise his/her business.



I had a look at the Wikipedia page. She's done this very cleverly, by providing links to several external sites, which all state basically the same nonsense. What I don't really understand is why you don't just delete those links. It's not like she paid for advertising space or anything, that's not what Wikipedia is for. If you edit the page and she gives you a hard time, I would report her. Please tell me if I can be of any help (I speak Dutch).

I had a look at the Wikipedia page. She's done this very cleverly, by providing links to several external sites, which all state basically the same nonsense. What I don't really understand is why you don't just delete those links. It's not like she paid for advertising space or anything, that's not what Wikipedia is for. If you edit the page and she gives you a hard time, I would report her. Please tell me if I can be of any help (I speak Dutch).

We are already busy changing that page. There are indeed still about 3 links to those pages (that are all the same underneath indeed) - there were 5 first. Maybe I am too careful, but we think it's best if we do it in small moves.
The person in question can be quite nasty. I removed the discussion because I did not want to cause trouble to the woman that owns the forum, but I copied it on another web site here (http://www.freewebs.com/skeptic-girl/poort.html).
S/he also runs a forum (i.e. is the sole admin and I think sole moderator too, though I am not certain) on ADD/ADHD where I looked around a bit last summer. The moment that anyone mentions anything that is not supportive of the philosophy that this person adheres to, s/he jumps in. It intimidated me and I left.

If you want to help I would appreciate that very much!

Luthien,

I think a website greatly benefits from having a person like you on board! It's also a wonderful learning opportunity for you to deal with--and learn ways of managing--aspects of yourself that you haven't had a chance to do--i.e. social anxiety, shyness, etc. Focus on the friendships you've made; that will help you minimize the less tasteful aspects of it.

Someone suggested getting in touch with Wikipedia; I would definitely do that I don't think it lends its authority to have its contributors acting in such inappropriate ways, so I think its administrators would appreciate your information.

On a lighter note: the Dutch fight??!! LOL My partner's Dutch; I've never met more serene people! :)

On a lighter note: the Dutch fight??!! LOL My partner's Dutch; I've never met more serene people! :)

Safely hidden behind their computers, the Dutch are online-swine like everybody else :D:D, perhaps even more so, as they are not used to controversy in real life and often have no idea what's appropriate in a discussion and what's not.

Anyway, I removed one of the links and made some minor adjustments, but would like to help revise the page in the spirit of non-quackery... I know you're already on it, so if you just PM me if I can do anything, that would be great. My inhibitions are few and far between, so I might be able to help when you feel too shy.:) Keep up the good work!

BTW: What's SADD.nl? Is that a serious thing?

Luthien,

For what it's worth: I really identify with your experience. If I were feeling such affection and like I'm "at home" at a certain website, I TOO would have done what you did. AND - just like you - I would feel very upset by the emotional uproar that ensued.

I'm very sorry that your trying to protect your "people" out of great caring for them has turned into this commotion. (Speaking of - does anyone remember that Madonna song, "Causing a Commotion"? . . . oops . . . pardon me . . . ) I seem to unwittingly instigate such tumult myself. And THEN get accused of being someone who THRIVES on creating chaos . . . (No! No! Really - I DON'T!)

I'm feeling for ya,
Sue

Safely hidden behind their computers, the Dutch are online-swine like everybody else :D:D, perhaps even more so, as they are not used to controversy in real life and often have no idea what's appropriate in a discussion and what's not.

Anyway, I removed one of the links and made some minor adjustments, but would like to help revise the page in the spirit of non-quackery... I know you're already on it, so if you just PM me if I can do anything, that would be great. My inhibitions are few and far between, so I might be able to help when you feel too shy.:) Keep up the good work!

BTW: What's SADD.nl? Is that a serious thing?

thank you!! That's awesome!
sadd.nl is the website of the Dutch Inattentive ADD foundation (Stichting ADD Nederland) ... it is indeed not a name that is really portable to english speaking countries :)

thanks all for your support. It is wonderful!

I feel a better about it. Some members have PM'd me with their support and it turns out that I even got support from unexpected directions. Like alwaysonthego mentions, this seems to turn into a learning experience now I have come over the initial shock and it may be a blessing in disguise.
What happened latched onto my social anxiety & shyness - that's the reason that it made me so miserable. That forum felt like a "safe haven" and while that's really wonderful as long as it lasts, it is a certainty that is at best built on shaky ground. The wonderful thing is that just because of this I connected to people that I would normally shy away from because they are "too different" (and to be totally honest: that I am a bit afraid of). It is like some barrier has come down.

We're here for you Luthien! I don't speak Dutch but I'll add it to my todo list. I should be able to help in...oh crap, where's the list? BRB

In all seriousness, you're a wonderful person and you do what you can. Don't worry too much about these people. And you're probably a great mod, provided it fits what you want in life.

B

Don't give up the good fight. Skepticism is a rare trait, and every person who can exercise it needs to be encouraged to do so. Scientific study, unbiased observation, and continuous improvement are the only ways we can honestly get closer to the truth. Don't let the hucksters and simple people wishing for simple solutions drag you away from demanding quality information.