One of the ongoing problems I have that I associate with my particular "flavor" of ADD is short term memory issues. For some reason, there are some things that I just cannot seem to get to stick in the old cranium!

This was always a problem in school, and now that I am studying for a career-related exam...argh, wouldnt you know it but this issue of mine has popped up again. :(

Especially named items that have multiple properties to them. I would elaborate on this, except I would have to look it up again. :confused: I don't remember them :eek:

Dangit...back to the books :rolleyes:

This is so frustrating for me also big. From the guarantee that I will drop one key shopping item out of my memory when i am running errands, to trying to conquer JAVA which I have really been struggling with, it won't sink in, no matter how many times I read and look at code snippets. Yet XML/XSL has been easy, I seem to relate to its logic. Oh yeah, there are also some things, like certain phone numbers that will absolutely not stick, others i can remember forever after hearing them once. Not to jump threads but the timer is a classic example of short term drop off, lol.

I also have this problem Big. It drives me nutz. I have over come it some what using a small 4.5 x 3.25 notebook for most things like errands and to do list. But to study for something, I struggle with that everyday. I'm wanting to go back to college and get my degree in psychology and may eventually get a phd. But the thought of doing so scares me. But I will do it, just got to get these Missouri hick doctors to believe me and get me back on meds to help this out.

Well here's to trying my darndest to remember where I am. LOL

I used the hear it say it type of thing with my boss, when he would ask me for things while we were working on a patient. He isnt known for his ability to be decent some days. He retorted to me one day"You know you should be able to retain 7 things ( why he chose seven I dont know) in your short term memory. Perhaps there is another medication we can get you on that will improve yours."The double blow of the reference to my disorders, the insinuation that i was abnormal or whatever and saying I was forgetting something when I wasnt was a hard blow. I carry notepads at home, they are jumbled but they work for me. He told me once I shouldnt need them. Shoulda woulda coulda.This is obviously a sore spot for me.

Short term memory is just that, short term (as in days at most). Perhaps you are trying to jam things that belong in the long term area in to the wrong bin? Maybe?

ADD is well known for causing memory problems... and I have this too!

ADD is well known for causing memory problems... and I have--

Oh wait, I said that already! ;)

Yeah, I get this. I'll ask my girlfriend the same question three or four times, and I'm just HORRIBLE with names. What's worse is that I'll think I've forgotten something, but... I'll actually remember it, but be unsure if I'm right. Very frustrating -- I pass someone in the hall, and my instinct is to say "Hi, Jerry!" but then at the last second I think ... wait... is that really Jerry? What if I'm wrong? It would be SO embarrassing to call him by the wrong name!

etc. etc. ad nauseum...

-- Tom

Oh, does anyone else repeat themselves a lot? I certainly do...I forget who I told what. I also forget things at the store...usually the item I went to get in the first place because suddenly I remember all of the OTHER things I need. I write lists, but usually forget them unless I remember to IMMEDIATELY stick them in my purse when I'm done. As for school, I'm just finishing...FINALLY..and have had a hell of a time. I have tried studying way in advance...you know, "pacing myself" but end up having to cram anyway just so I can keep everything in my head for the moment. It scares me because I will be graduating and really don't remember much of what I learned. I learn best "on the job," so going in I feel like a blank slate, when in fact, I have all the theory somewhere in my brain....I just don't know where.

...also, sometimes things I don't even know that I know will pop up out of nowhere.

As a full-time graduate student, I can completely understand how difficult it is to retain the information needed for an exam. I am not sure what you have done in the past to be successful on your tests, but have you ever tried using visual techniques? It is common for individuals with cognitive differences (along w/learning disablities) to retain info through pictures, drawings, color-coding, note-cards, or networking strategies. As one having ADD (with a learning disability in written expression and short-term memory loss), and having a teaching degree in special education...I find many of these ideas as being effective. If you would like to further details on how to possible implement any of this, please feel free to email me-- email address edited by Moderator--please contact smooch with questions. . Good luck with your exam! Oh yeah-- for this exam, are you going to be given extra time if needed? (By law, if you provide documented disabilities stating extra time is needed, you are allowed to receive that for ANY test- including career exams):confused:

Ditto here, and my son is the same way. I get flustered. He gets embarrassed a lot, poor kid. :(

Charliegirl



Originally posted by atomx
...Yeah, I get this. I'll ask my girlfriend the same question three or four times, and I'm just HORRIBLE with names. What's worse is that I'll think I've forgotten something, but... I'll actually remember it, but be unsure if I'm right. Very frustrating -- I pass someone in the hall, and my instinct is to say "Hi, Jerry!" but then at the last second I think ... wait... is that really Jerry? What if I'm wrong? It would be SO embarrassing to call him by the wrong name!

etc. etc. ad nauseum...

-- Tom

Ugh! I've done it again! I have an appointment to meet with a mortgage broker....I've had it in my head all week.....I knew it was on Wednesday......tonite I was just getting ready to get all my stuff together for my meeting "tomorrow" when I realized it IS Wednesday and I'm already 90 minutes late!!!!!!!!!! I can't stand this anymore. It is so humiliating. I feel like I don't ever want to meet him because he already thinks I'm a flake. I am SOOOOO mad at myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my. Misclee. I'm sorry. Wow... You okay??? I forgive you....DO YOU FORGIVE YOU?????? PLEASE????? Call him and make something up why you weren't there...ANYTHING......um like this ADD is YOUR fault???? is ISN'T....it's not like you PLANNED to forget this meeting....JUST HAPPENED.....let him think you're a flake...hey maybe he's GLAD you didn't make it...ever think of that? Because now he didn't have to show up for the responsbility either....K???? Please come back to thread..and follow-up with this thread and US...Better times are coming.. when you get on meds.......Look you made it through GRADUATE school...something to celebrate...right????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! Please follow up here...:)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????????? ??

Mortgage broker is going to make money on the transaction. Although it is impolite to not show up, it is in his benefit to be flexible and understand if your schedule didn't work today. No need to lie either. I have found telling the truth is the most disarming approach. People really do appreciate the truth and respect you for it.

I missed an important business meeting a week ago and called up, and told him I simply forgot, despite the fact that the meeting was on my mind. He understood. And we rescheduled. It was better than making up an excuse, at least in the way I felt, I felt better just telling it like it is. We are all human.

Jon

hey misclee darlin' with the pretty name its been about 2 hours since your old crisis. how are you hanging in there? let me let you in on a little secret. i aint a mortage broker but i have type of profession where if people miss appt wiht me, i lose out on money. they call it billable hours. and sometimes they dont show. but dan doesnt get bent out of sjhape. because then i might lose good feelings about them forever for my company. know what i mean? so mortage broker may think your a flake but see if hes mean to you hes afraid youll think he's a flake, get it? and i never once thought client of mine who missed appointmetn was a flake. nosiree..so no flakesanywhere. except in the boston winters. we had LOTs OF FLAKES THIS WINTERS. oops capital letters. actually did you know that boston is spelled baahston. and you from san fran? aint never been there.hang in there misclee.

Thanks, but I'm still feeling pretty bad...not just that, but about MANY things lately. I just can't seem to get it together.

I know the feeling, Misclee. I have had short term memory problems for a long time resulting in missed or late appointments, forgotten promises, etc.

Lately, (for the last 5 weeks) I have been *really* suffering with this... I think it is because my new doctor put me on Paxil, but on no meds for the ADD. (Just treating my flight anxiety for now.) She's open to the diagnosis and treatment of ADD, but wanted to add only one med at a time so we didn't overdo it or have weird interactions. So for the past 5 weeks, it has been like living in a complete fog. Tomorrow, though, is my physical appointment, and I'll be seeing the doctor... so I feel like there's a possible light at the end of my tunnel!

Have you tried all the different things to help with your memory, and forgetting things in the future? Like keeping a notepad and pen with you all the time, using your computer to set reminders (in Outlook or other programs), and keeping an alarm clock with you as a reminder tool? One of the things I've discovered recently is that I can set my cell phone to go off at a certain time, and since I always have it with me, it's another alarm clock I can use. I also use a PocketPC and try to keep all my appointments and reminders in there, and I know many people use Palms (the PDA) to do the same.

Ihave the same problem. I also call it CRS disorder. The bad thing is I am getting ready for college again. It is gonna be tough I can't remember what I read, so how am I suppose to be able to test especially on a class I don't want to take. Not that I mind the classes, I just can't remember what was said once I walk out the door

Yes, I've tried EVERYTHING, except meds. I can never remember to check my reminders. My palm pilot helped a lot, but I accidentally erased all the information in it twice.

I find using visual techniques helps. For example, if you are having to remember an ordered list (names, places etc) using a pegging system (I think that is what it is called) works wonders. Heres how it goes:
Assign a picture to each number from 1 to 10 using objects that directly relate to each number either by sound or sight
(i.e. 1 = bun, 2 = shoe, 3 = tree, 4 = door, 5 = hive, 6 = bricks, 7 = heaven, 8 = gate, 9 = line, 10 = hen).
Then attach each number object to it's corresponding list item. Like.. ermm... a list of egg, cheese, milk, ham can be come:
a raw egg mcmuffin, some cheesey-smelling shoes, a thirsty cow climbing a tree in a medow and a pig being sliced neatly and thinly by a slamming door [tehee].
Linking each image together in a zany story also helps and the more crazy the better! :)

This method saved my behind many times... although why anyone would need to know worlds great philosophers and their order I have no idea.....

Random thots....

1. I don't remember off-hand if I have a memory problem.....

2. CRS? Can't Remember S..... Rats! I can't recall the whole acronym %P

3. I'd use my Mega-Transformer Plan-a-Troid binder to organize my memory, if I could only remember where I put it.....

4. I am convinced that Phone Numbers come from hell.....


Ken

As stated in the one of the books by kate kelly and peggy romono of the added addvantage and you mean Im not lazy crazy or stupid " I cant remeber which book" but it claims that it is not so much of a memory problem as it is that we dont take the time to commit certain things to memory

Memory being a chemical reaction in the brain when we see or do something supposedly a few chemicals combine to form a memory engram of some sort

either our tank is low on the memory fluid or we have a leeky gas line(chemical line ) where the chemicals arent getting to the mixer to make the correct flavor of milkshake

Grin

does that explain it in simple english

I relate, I have a great detailed longterm memory, short term is another story. I personally attribute it to the fact that my mind is a jumble. Meaning I am thinking about too many things at once. Bad filing system. Just another part of being disorganized,
How can we beorganized on the outside if we aren't on the inside? And visa versa.
also there is a feeling of trying not to put anything off, so when it pops in my head I do it,(otherwise it may slip my mind) thus possibly forgetting to follow through with the task that preceeded it. And therefore absorb it/ remember it.
Brain bombardment.

Originally posted by janine
I relate, I have a great detailed longterm memory, short term is another story. . . .
How can we beorganized on the outside if we aren't on the inside? And visa versa.


God yes, My feller is always asking how I can be a walking historian for family history (and the history of our relationship), but I can't remember to put my keys on my key hook as soon as I get home.

As for outside versus inside , I read something that was helpful to me (don't ask me where). It said that there's surface disorganization and then there's system disorganization. If all the surfaces in my home clean and clear and yet me terrified that someone will open a drawer. That's surface organization. If I have clutter on the surface, but you open a drawer and there's a space for everything, that's system organization.

I think, for me, the key is not to confuse the two. ADDers will always have surface clutter popping up, but as long as we have places for everything and a system to follow, we're still in control.

My short term memory is really bad. I have trouble remembering what ADD/ADHD means. I have wondered if it's just a matter of not concentrating.

Originally posted by Ludger
My short term memory is really bad . . I have wondered if it's just a matter of not concentrating. I think "not concentrating" is a pejorative term. It makes it sound like it's a matter of will power. And if there's one thing I try to remind myself of often, it's that I can no more will ADD away than I can will myself to be left-handed.

Plus, if you think of it as just of matter of "will", then the solution becomes "try harder". So you do the same thing you've been doing - which hasn't been working - but you do it harder? It has worked better for me to recognize the things I'm not as good at and to work with them.

I am SURE I have trouble with short term memory, so I work extra hard to make my daytimer my short-term memory. "On the page, off the mind." When I tried a Palm Pilot, it didn't work for me (because I would forget which section I had written things down in). If I had just tried 'harder' to use the Palm Pilot, it would have just set me up for failure. I NEED a book that I can flip through.

Take what's helpful and leave the rest :)

Juju, Thanks for the info on surface/system organization. That holds promise and does work for me when I find the right systems for each area in life. A great reminder! A couple areas I have had succesful systems. The bills and the mail are next to find a workable system.

Originally posted by Garry Lawton
.....Memory being a chemical reaction in the brain when we see or do something supposedly a few chemicals combine to form a memory engram of some sort
.....

does that explain it in simple english

Excuse me, I was wrapped up in US Thanksgiving frenzy, so didn't reply right away.....

I would consider your reply good enough for simple english, except I would like a little clarification about what exactly do you mean by "engram"?

I.e., are you using the term web-loosely, or are you actually using it Scientologically, or......?

;)

Ken

I couldn’t remember my children’s, brother's and sister's or parent's birth date if you held a gun to my head. (For safety sake, I got married on my birthday.)

However, I bet I have more than 5,000 images located here, there and everywhere on my computer - and I can find any one of them in a snap.


<img border="0" src="http://www.epic-isti.com/b3ta/images/claymore.jpg" width="280" height="202">

I haven't posted here for months because I forgot my username.

Hey Mike...nice to see you back :)

Originally posted by BIG
Hey Mike...nice to see you back :)
Thanks Big!

I'll hang around for a while and then, true to form,
I'll split with little or no notice (ADHD?).

Or, I'll stay around until I get booted
for eating up too much band width.


<img border="0" src="http://www.epic-isti.com/b3ta/images/kittenandmom2.gif" width="260" height="244">


MadMike

I've got a nasty problem with remembering any sort of structure...maybe why my stint studying computer science in college was so short lived. To this day, I would rather pay someone to write a works cited page for me than reference a book each and every time I need to do it...it's the one thing that I have the most trouble learning...formats. I also spent highschool begging for extra time on math tests because I'd spend half the period deriving all the formulas I needed from scratch because I found it impossible to remember them explicitly.

For some reason phone numbers are no problem for me, but formats, like I mentioned, and names might as well be teflon coated when I need them to stick in my brain.

I've always had a problem remembering things. In the past I used things like notepads and more recently a Pocket PC to help me keep track. But you can't write EVERYTHING down. I would always feel bad when I forgot something important and would apologize to everyone for my failing.

I found out a few months ago that my ex-wife would use this to her advantage, claiming she had told me something when she really hadn't. She'd act like she was mad because I'd fouled up again and I'd feel terrible, when in fact she was the one who was supposed to handle whatever it was and didn't and was now putting the blame on me...and I'd accept it, assuming she was right.

Mark

I know that tactic very well CNW, I've had my swiss cheese memory used against me many times in a relationship setting. In my case it was my long-term relationship with a girlfriend who was also ADD, so the compound effect of two bad memories left both of us constantly unsure of what did or didn't happen or what was or wasn't said. She eventually did admit to maliciously taking advantage of this and doing exactly what you described: making something up and taking advantage of the fact that I was never sure if it really happened or not.

Needless to say, I'm sure she misplaced a lot of phonenumbers in her search for a new boyfriend!

Proof again, people cheat, lie, etc., and (but not because) it works.

I write things down and then decide that there's a better place to write it and another way to remember like putting things on my tapes recorders(yes, tape recorders!) and decide one is better than the other and the next day decide on something else and I have no idea where and which list I put things to do and ideas. I just keep trying different ways to remember and can't stick with one way, etc., etc., etc......

I can never decide what works best for me....so I will half heartedly attempt all methods (none of which work). And so if I remember, I will just use a list.

The other day I went into the grocery store w/o a list. I attempted to letter associate. ie T for toothbrush, tuna. M for milk, mayonaise. I left the store with two T's: tuna, toothpaste :mad: (which I did not need...I needed a toothbrush) I managed to buy 3M's instead of 2 plus a bunch of other, unwanted items. :confused:

As far as phone numbers; that will never happen. I'v been in my new home for almost a year. I've "owned" my cell number for years.....guess what? I still do not know my home number, cell# or my zip code. Needless to say, I've had some :o ! Thankfully, I know and am aware of the town and state in which I live. Now, that's progress. :rolleyes:

I really believe that I just give up on trying to remember because it just seems so useless. :(

Yes, I've tried EVERYTHING, except meds. I can never remember to check my reminders. My palm pilot helped a lot, but I accidentally erased all the information in it twice.
I don't understand - couldn't you just sync it again? To me this is the joy of my PalmPilot - I may forget to check it, but I sync it every morning with my computer. That way, if I erase my data, I just sync it again to get it back.

I have such trouble with memory. I have strategies that I use for school. When I'm in the real world though it can be frustrating and difficult b/c my friends get annoyed and offended if I don't remember things like birthdates, etc. Some of them just don't understand and I tell them I can't help it.

Well I don't have ADHD on its own so I don't know how this relates...

I have relatively bad WORKING memory, i.e. I tend to forget things if there's more than one or two to keep in mind at once. If I am busy (and that can mean just doing two things instead of one) then things fall out of my memory and never make it to the short-term let alone long-term memory.

My SHORT-TERM memory isn't actually too bad... I tend to remember appointments if I manage to remind myself of them a few days before... When I am not stressed and don't have more than one or two things on, then I have an OK awareness of what is to come today and tomorrow, but anything beyond a few days might as well be in 10 years' time.

However, because my brain is usually overloaded and overwhelmed, things often don't get stored properly over the long term (unless I get to repeat them VERY frequently)... although once something IS stored in long-term memory then it usually stays there properly.

For example when I am cooking a new recipe:

While cooking, my bad working memory means I have to look back and forth between the cupboard and the recipe loads, and get in a flap get overwhelmed etc. trying to remember things for more than a few seconds.

BUT I tend to remember the exact listing of ingredients (including amounts) and instructions the next morning, and can write them down almost word for word!

However more than half a day or a day later and it's as if I had never known.... Unless I repeat the process several times within a week at most, it just will not stick permanently.

In tests I always managed to cram things in by rote but within hours after the test it was gone... especially in maths... I could get an A on a subject even though I was unable to explain even the basic principles behind it... and within a week of the test I hardly even remembered ever having known anything about the subject.

While cooking, my bad working memory means I have to look back and forth between the cupboard and the recipe loads, and get in a flap get overwhelmed etc. trying to remember things for more than a few seconds.



This describes my auditory memory quite well. I often forget what someone has said before I am finished processing it, although if I wait a few hours, I may be able to recall it. I really have to work to store the smallest of information in working memory. My "short-term" memory, or lack thereof, is usually simulated by my "temporary" long term memory (recall of around one month). I really do not even have what is called a "short-term" memory.

In my experience, retention of information is related to the active processing of information. For example, when I travel to a location by reading a map and making an active decision on routes and paths, I am able to visually remember the way I had taken the first time. However, if I have someone else in the vehicle giving me directions, I will remember approximately nothing. Sure, our short term memories may be bad, but active processing will always yield better results than passive processing.

This also relates to a visual thinker's typical way of remembering a piece of information. The visual thinker must be able to put that piece of information within a map of understanding in order to remember it. They must make a "connection". With respect to the style of thinking and learning of a visual thinker, this process is permanent, and thus would be called "long-term" memory. This is why it is rather logical for a visual thinker to have a better long term memory than short term memory. As to why one tends to remember something better as time elapsed increases, I do not know. I refer to visual thinkers as those with AD/HD have a tendancy to be visual thinkers, although not always.

"This describes my auditory memory quite well. I often forget what someone has said before I am finished processing it, although if I wait a few hours, I may be able to recall it."

Definitely... I hardly retain ANYTHING from conversations IF I TAKE PART IN THEM. I am amazingly good at retaining info that I overhear OTHER people talk about though.

"I really have to work to store the smallest of information in working memory. My "short-term" memory, or lack thereof, is usually simulated by my "temporary" long term memory (recall of around one month). I really do not even have what is called a "short-term" memory."

Yes I guess temporary long-term memory is a better term for what I called short-term memory in my post!

"In my experience, retention of information is related to the active processing of information. For example, when I travel to a location by reading a map and making an active decision on routes and paths, I am able to visually remember the way I had taken the first time."

Yep... although I'm not a visual thinker.. I kind of body-map things, although I am able to retain SOME things visually. Not much though... it's more a feel of where things are, a sensory "Imprint" rather than an image in my head.

"As to why one tends to remember something better as time elapsed increases, I do not know."

For me it's delayed processing...

Sometimes it takes me days for something to christallise, sometime hours... but not much in my head (as far as deliberate, conscious cognitive functions goes) works immediately.

I just haven't licked how to get stuff from temporary to PERMANENT long-term memory yet :(

looking up a phone number in a phone directory, going over to the telephone to dial that number, and it's *gone* (the number from the short-time memory, that is - the telephone is where it's always been - in my computer!;-)

making plans in the morning to see my friends for lunch - by lunch those plans are *gone*

asking someone what they did last week, and then 15 minutes later, having no memory whatsoever of having asked this...

someone asking me what i did last week - *gone*

*sighing*
:(

"How do facts stick in our mind?

What year did Christopher Columbus discover America? Who was the inventor of the telephone? How many people are in the senate? Remembering a list of facts to pass a history test or even recalling information that you use daily, such as your address, relies on the formation of lasting or "long-term" memories. The brain secures learned information by implementing a series of molecular interactions.

At first the activity of various chemicals provides knowledge with a temporary occupancy in the brain, lasting for a few minutes. The memory is in its "short-term" phase. This fresh information is evicted and forgotten unless essential molecules and genes are activated.

Many researchers believe that the process of transforming a short-term memory into a long-term memory begins when brain cells receive signals that induce reactions involving the molecule, protein kinase A. This, in turn, sets off another molecule in the cell known as cyclic AMP-response element binding protein (CREB). CREB activates genes, which are segments of the cell's deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). Genes hold sequences of coding molecules that provide the biological instructions for producing proteins. The development and function of the body and brain is directed by many different proteins. The genes activated by CREB lead to the production of special proteins that change the structure and activity of nerve cells. These reactions fasten information for days, weeks or longer.

The core molecular switch appears to be involved in securing the memories of facts and events, known as explicit memories, as well as implicit memories. Implicit memories remind you how to do something. They involve motor skills and perceptual strategies. The answers to the history test questions rely on explicit memories. Implicit memories remind you how to actually write the responses.

While at least some of the chemical reactions needed to convert a short-term memory into a long-term memory appear to be the same, the memory processing occurs in different brain areas. Explicit memories require the brain regions within the temporal lobe of the cerebral cortex including the hippocampus. Implicit memories are primed in the specific sensory and motor systems that are recruited for whatever the particular task is.



<HR noShade>For more information please contact Leah Ariniello, Science Writer, Society for Neuroscience, 11 Dupont Circle, NW, Suite 500, Washington DC 20036."


("borrowed" off http://apu.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBackgrounders/memory.htm)
<!-- end content include file -->

For example, when I travel to a location by reading a map and making an active decision on routes and paths, I am able to visually remember the way I had taken the first time. However, if I have someone else in the vehicle giving me directions, I will remember approximately nothing.
That's really interesting. It's exactly the same but along the same line, I can always find a place if I look it up on a map, but as soon as someone gives me directions I am guaranteed to get lost.

I also have a terrible memory. I think that I am of above average intelligence but just have trouble remembering things i learn or read or hear so it's hard to come across this way.

One thing about my memory though is that I never forget a song. I have never heard any song and forgotten it. Ever. Even a song I haven't heard since primary school will come back to me within one listen. So on the odd occasion, being reasonably musically capable, if I have something really important to learn for an exam I will put it to music. This is very time consuming however, but it works for me...

.... trying to conquer JAVA which I have really been struggling with, it won't sink in, no matter how many times I read and look at code snippets. Yet XML/XSL has been easy.

I simpethize with you on the Java front. How do you "Imprint" new technical stuff into your memory ? I find that when it comes to programming stuff I only "understand" it after much repetition and then a delay is required to let it sink in. In school situations I have found it impossible to learn at the pace required so have avoided learning in school settings if possible. I tend to learn by experience and then it imprinted at a gut level - this way I just sort of react to stuff - a more intuttive method.

I think what I am trying to say is that us ADD people may operate in a more reactive/intutive way than others and must use creative strategies to make it.

Skipping back to alurian and highfunctioning:

You've touched on something that I do that I've wondered whether or not it was related to my AD/HD ever since I realized I had AD/HD: I use maps to plan trips, but rarely when I'm actually driving to a new location. Verbal directions go in one of my ears and out the other, too.

There's another factor I wonder if anyone has noticed. Once I drive a route, I can almost always remember it. My wife is boggled how I can dodge around traffic jams over surface streets, but that's only because I've driven them all while commuting in the past.

Lastly, I seem to have a compass needle in my head. I can usually figure out which way is north, even in bad weather. Any takers on that? Or is it the metal plate in my head.... XD

Ken

Learning/remembering things I want to isn't too much of a problem for me; but if it isn't my idea, forget about it!

I am a combination visual/tactile/kinesthetic learner, so something that really works for me is writing down what I'm trying to learn/remember, even small snippets of it. Having a visual trigger I've wired into my brain with writing/typing helps out.

Good luck with the career exam, big!

While we have memory issues on the board, I often wonder how typical it is to have a partially deficient auditory memory. For example, my auditory memory for anything other than words is actually quite good. I usually remember the actual music of a track within one listening. I can identify many makes and models of vehicles simply by the noise they make running or starting up. Yet, I usually do not remember words very well at all. I was always amazed by how most people could sing the lyrics of many different songs, yet I never remember the lyrics to any songs (unless of course I have read the lyrics on paper).

How many here have such a split difference in auditory memory? I would imagine that this is because of extremely poor processing of the complex sounds of spoken language.

Lastly, I seem to have a compass needle in my head. I can usually figure out which way is north, even in bad weather. Any takers on that? Or is it the metal plate in my head.... XD

Ken

You are not alone - I also have the ability to always "Know" the compass direction - generally speaking - it is an intutitive thing. If I think about the direction I am usually wrong. How about time awareness. I generally can determine the correct time at any time of the day - usually within 10 minutes - but not always. Somehow I just know it.
Any takers on this one ?

I was always amazed by how most people could sing the lyrics of many different songs, yet I never remember the lyrics to any songs (unless of course I have read the lyrics on paper).

How many here have such a split difference in auditory memory? I would imagine that this is because of extremely poor processing of the complex sounds of spoken language.

I do that! I'll be able to hear all sorts of intricate chord progressions in my head from a song, but half the time I can't even make out the lyrics when I'm actually listening to it...


Lastly, I seem to have a compass needle in my head. I can usually figure out which way is north, even in bad weather. Any takers on that? Or is it the metal plate in my head.... XD

Nope, none of that sort of thing here. I typically have to think about it based on where the sun is, and even then, I mess up because of my horrid sense of direction and end up going the wrong way anyway. :)

Well, you, me, and HighFunctioning at least have that in common -- a good memory for tunes but not words. I'm lucky to remember a stanza or two. I'm much better in remembering words learned by recitation (as in a choir or singing group) -- but that's just another aspect of "Practice Makes Possible".

Ken

I have really bad memory issues. Long term and short term. It's very hard for me to remember what I had for dinner the evening before a lot, sometimes it's a Monday at work and people will ask me what I did over the weekend and it's very difficult to recall what I did. Or I'll be watching TV with my husband and we will be watching a program and during the commercial he will flick to a different show and after a few moments I will forget what the other program was that we were watching.
This kind of stuff is so frustrateing, I feel like I am loseing my mind!!
Also, I can't remember the names of more than maybe two or three of my teachers from Kindergarden-High School. I have even forgetten the last names of serious boyfriends. I can't say for sure how many sexual partner's I have had although it is enough to count on one hand and they were all my boyfriends (so people I was in love with). I don't know if it's because I don't like to think about my past and I rarely do unless I'm asked questions about it and then I search my mind to remember so I can answer. And it's not like I don't like my past, or that I am trying to run from it, I just generally don't think about the past, I am very forward thinking, in the moment kind of person.
I think my memory is so bad too because I often allow myself to get distracted in thought before finding the answer therefore never making that connection and so that is reinforceing loseing the memory.
It scares me, I'm only 23-years-old and my memory is terrible and it drives me bonkers as it is. Every morning I leave the house, and have to come back inside sometimes twice because I forgot something, even though I always put everything in the same place everyday so I don't misplace or lose it.
I can be talking and in mid-sentense completely forget what I was thinking or saying, POOF gone, like someone flipped a switch.

While we have memory issues on the board, I often wonder how typical it is to have a partially deficient auditory memory. For example, my auditory memory for anything other than words is actually quite good. I usually remember the actual music of a track within one listening. I can identify many makes and models of vehicles simply by the noise they make running or starting up. Yet, I usually do not remember words very well at all. I was always amazed by how most people could sing the lyrics of many different songs, yet I never remember the lyrics to any songs (unless of course I have read the lyrics on paper).

How many here have such a split difference in auditory memory? I would imagine that this is because of extremely poor processing of the complex sounds of spoken language.
i'm kind of like that except i usually can do that with actual spoken word...sometimes when i'm taking a test, for instance i just took a logic exam..i remember thinking..'hmm what was that?" and i heard my prof's voice and verbatim what he said in that class. ..that we learned that particular fact. but don't ask me to remember lyrics!! i love music to death and i'm addicted and i can SING to the lyrics but ask me while the music is not on...is like asking a fish how the ocean feels when they're flapping on the beach...

oh and i can memorize in crystal manner anything that interests me.
thats my PROBLEM. ppl don't find me credible when they find out that i have adhd...they always balk and say'.....but you have the memory of an elephant...uhh yeah. when it comes to womens history...or quotes from 'the second sex'....or random facts and articles...do i remember what i need at the grocery story? absolutely not. i also cannot remember errands, or any other 'important' stuff..but hey! i can tell precisely what i heard while i was listening to npr!!!

That's why I've always thought "Inattentiveness" really means "No Focus Control". It's like having a channel clicker with a mind of its own. Some things are excruciatingly clear and memorable, and other things are practically invisible -- and very little of them have any thing to do with "real" priorites or even the fact that I believe like everybody else that these priorities *are* real.

Clear as mud?

Ken

I have bad short term memory, too. When they were doing one of those "don't do drugs" type things at my school once, they told us smoking pot can have adverse effects on short term memory. I kinda wonder how bad it would be if I smoked pot, too.

Oh, and here's a joke:

A man goes to the doctor. The doctor says "I have bad news."

"What's that?"

"You have cancer and Alzheimers."

"Well, at least I don't have cancer."

Yes...... memory issues i have it too. Sometimes i think that MAybe it is just a lack of time reading the books. If we spend more time on it, the memory thing can be overcome. Provided that, while you are studying, you are actually concentrating. I have been thinking why is it my peers could memorize so much things, and i could not. I don't know how much time they took, it is their big secret can't reveal to me. For me i had taken eg 7 hours for one topic. Which is really alot. Maybe i think it is because i get racy thoughts. My thoughts are racy and thinking of the wrong things at the wrong times. Argh.

Sometimes i can get obsessed while studying, what i mean is like eg: i know this sentence/ paragraph, but i still like to repeat them a couple of times, it is like i worry that the information will slip out my head. Somthing like that, so i took a lot more time than others, i think. I never know how much time they dedicated to studying. What i know is i think my method of studying is different from them, and this method being different could have result to my short term memory issues. Therefore my results were never fantastic.

In a hilarious twist of fate, I forgot if I've replied to this thread yet. I have a good semantic memory and a pretty good procedural memory, but my episodic memory is hurting. I can normally remember facts and information, and I can remember how to do things, but I often forget things that I am supposed to do.

I carry a notepad with me to write down all the little ideas and thoughts that come to my mind, as well as to write down lists of things I am buying or tasks I have to accomplish throughout the day. It turns out to be quite handy.

[QUOTE=Sometimes i can get obsessed while studying, what i mean is like eg: i know this sentence/ paragraph, but i still like to repeat them a couple of times, it is like i worry that the information will slip out my head. .[/QUOTE]

This "slip out my head" phenominon is big one :eek and causes us ADDers to develop all kinds of negative survival patterns - you cannot fight it because is it part of your nature - I have decided that it is better to develop positive strategies and other patterns that provide a counterbalance. If course it is not fair - but so be it.

I've been watching this thread for some time, trying to figure out a way to post that would be relevant to Big's original post and the many directions that the thread has drifted.

It occurs to me to ask two questions: first, what specific memory does everyone have of posting?

I suspect some will remember explicitly, and some will have to cruise back to jog their memories. I doubt that many of you will have that "out of mind" experience of not recognizing your own post, even though the thread has cooked along for some time.

The second question is this: how did each of you remember the information in your post? That is, how did you remember the different difficulties and stories about those difficulties, the theories, and so on?

Does anyone have a specific impression of the process of remembering (and forgetting) in real time? I'm speaking of an awareness, while your mind is functioning (Duh!) of what is happening as information sticks or flees, under different circumstances like time of day, how alert or tired you are, the social situation, on or off meds, and like that.

It's not a test (grin…), and although I'm interested in the answers, please don't feel compelled to spend a lot of time on it.

My point is a little different, specifically, if you read back over this thread, you will see example after example of smoothly functioning, accurate retrieval of detailed information over both long and short time spans, about the many problems each of you has had

with your faculty for smoothly functioning, accurate retrieval of detailed information over both long and short time spans.

If that doesn't give you the grins, nothin' will. We believe the problem should be stated differently:

Each of us has an obviously robust and highly capable memory capability. The posts themselves demonstrate that adequately. But in some relatively specific situations, that faculty appears to fail.

What is incorrect about the way we try to use it in these situations that gives rise to the illusion that there is a problem with our memories?

In our research into human communications, Kay and I identified two different logical structures in the brain that are used to store and process information. One of them, the metamodel web, is apparently strongly associated with AD/HD.

That makes sense in many ways. The ability to have two active threads of thought is the only difference required for developing a metamodel web, rather than the other, simpler structure. The way that information is processed is often sufficiently different to cause subtle differences in our external behavior; the social response to such differences is a familiar issue for most ADDers.

Perhaps most significantly, a metamodel web requires a considerable amount of time to fully mature, perhaps as long as forty years. But there is no barrier to the simultaneous use of both logical structures, and we often see a mix of the two at work. As the web develops, we tend to abandon (or integrate) the simpler representations, so the subtle differences in our behavior also change over time.

We are also apparently able to able to force the use of the simpler structure, or at least, the appearance of its use. Our abstract idea about a thing can include as an attribute the use of the older structure itself. When we learn something new (are ya' listenin', Big?) the assumption of it's use can be subtly buried in the presentation of the material.

How well we use, or pretend to use, the simpler structure to store and process information depends on many variables. As we grow older and our metamodel web matures, we tend to find the use of the simpler structure less compelling, falling back on trying to create the appearance of it's use instead.

This situation gives rise to several problems. It may seem that our ability to learn is diminishing, and pretending to use the "correct" structure is seldom effective and can be distracting in it's own right. It's bound to be noticed, bringing more social pressure to bear, and in a classroom setting that usually has a direct effect on grades.

But perhaps the biggest problem (pun intended) is this: if we use a metamodel web, the effective understanding of a subject requires a specific model that is appropriate to the structure itself. If classroom material is presented in a manner appropriate to the simpler structure, we are left with the task of finding our own representation.

In effect, we are trying to understand the subject in a deep enough way that we could effectively present it ourselves, while it is being presented in a different way inappropriate to our understanding.

If that doesn't distract you, I want to know what drug you're using. Kay and I skate all over this problem all the time. Sometimes, we can work on the fly, because we understand the process and it doesn't seem to upset us any more.

Or, we separate the process of understanding the material from the classroom context. We don't get what's being presented like other students might, and we have no expectation that we will. We know that we will experience a kind of super-integration later, as we try to imagine how the presenter must think about the subject to present it in that particular way.

Gaining that insight signals the integration of the material into the metamodel web. Once that occurs, we usually find that we understand the material (sometimes the whole subject) much better than most of the other students. Sometimes, better than the teacher him/herself.

(And that's also when the other students sometimes start to come to us for help before the tests. Kay's OK with that, but if they ask to copy my notes, they're out of luck. I start integrating on the fly, and Kay is a literalist who integrates later. My notes look like a bomb went off in my head while I was writing.)

I know this has been mainly specific to Big's original post, but the same expectations of what logical structure you will use to perform a certain task exist in the everyday situations discussed, too. Sometimes the expectation can be even more demanding than those in the classroom.

So the same principles apply. Particularly, the way that, as a metamodel web slowly matures, our tolerance for putting up with those demands decreases. I'm not sure that anyone with AD/HD in full bloom has the energy or will to try after they hit forty.

We think that's very likely a contributor to the many different forms that the symptoms of AD/HD take on; just look at the array of different problems discussed here, in this one thread. The relatively long maturation time of the metamodel web goes a long way towards explaining those differences based on one underlying cause.

* * * *

I'll have to check further into the bit about the chemical aspects of short term memory. We know that long term memory involves more or less permanent changes in the synaptic weights that define both the form and function of the neural networks in the brain.

That obviously involves chemical changes, mediated by cellular mechanisms, but I don't recognize the specific biochemical mechanism described. It's been several years since we revisited that stuff; our work moved on to more abstract mechanisms by the early nineties.

Our model of short term memory involves neural structures that express logical models of neural function itself, organized into structures that can be thought of as virtual neural networks. The problem with ordinary ol' neurons is that they're relatively slow. Changing the synaptic weights in a neural network to create and/or refine a logical model (which can be thought of as being stored in the network) requires a fair amount of time.

There are varying (and sometimes conflicting) estimates of how slow this process actually is, but it's probably far too slow for remembering a phone number, for example.

But the weights in a virtual neural network are virtual as well; they're expressed as logic, and they can change as quickly as we can change our minds. So they make an excellent vehicle for quickly modeling an abstraction like a phone number. For things we'd like to keep around, all you need is a mechanism to transfer the patterns stored to real physical neurons.

That is generally understood to be the ordinary operation of short term and long term memory and the interface between the two. And there are many aspects of everyday life that reflect both the timing and the logical arrangement itself.

One of the most rigorous is the way that primary education instructors arrange the presentation of materials, to both reinforce the transfer mechanism and prevent interference between subjects that have fundamentally different types of logical representations.

(Take a K – 6 qualified teacher out for beer sometime and ask him/her about how they organize their lesson plans. It's fascinating, and it's guaranteed to cost you more than one beer.)

I suspect that there is a correlation between our expression of short term memory and the biochemical mechanism cited. When I get the time, and if I can see the connection without too much additional effort, I'll post about it here.